Pastor Confronted on Campus

Apologia Studios

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It's all over the news. I didn't hear anything about it. Do you know companies like Stericycle?

00:06

They go to the abortion mill and then they basically take it as medical waste. It was like a Stericycle company that comes to pick up to dispose of the medical waste.

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Some Christians and others who were out there were able to get access to that waste box or packages.

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There was 115 probably from about a week probably about a week worth of abortions or less, 2 -3 days at that mill.

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What circumstance though is it okay to murder an innocent person? What circumstance is alright?

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I mean, could that baby sustain itself if it weren't in the womb?

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What baby can't? Right, right. So could I kill a 2 -year -old? My 2 -year -old can't sustain life without me.

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So yes, it's like the... So you're choosing based on location and stuff like that. No, no, you said dependence, sustainability.

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That was your argument just now. Right, I wouldn't consider this to be like a person yet.

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It's still like half a thing. Is it a human? His brain was sucked out. They crushed and sucked the brain out.

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The head actually concaved. It sucked in because of the suction of the brain out of the baby's head to kill the baby.

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Again, we don't know why the person chose... So did they do the murder trials?

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Like somebody's on trial for murder and the judge says, but did you have a good reason? And the guy says, yeah, you know, life was tough for me.

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I didn't like him. I didn't want him near me. So I killed him. Would that be acceptable in a court of law? These late -term abortions, yes.

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They're crazy. I can admit that. What makes it crazy? Why? I mean, yeah, it's gross.

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It's gross. Here's one that's about... There's one over here that's just really about 12 weeks.

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Human. I mean, that's a human, right? Years. My thing is, people that are anti -choice, right?

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They spend a lot of time doing this, but do you also spend your other time helping out at adoption agencies?

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Yeah, I adopted my son. He was going to be aborted. That's good. Brother, I would say, I think what you're doing is for the sake of not being offensive, you're allowing something like this to take place.

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I think you're so worried about offending people that you're okay with murder of innocent people. I don't think anyone is happy about doing this kind of thing.

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I'm sure... I can show you videos of people who are very happy. You've never been to an abortion clinic? I have.

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I volunteer at one. This happens 3 ,000 babies a day. This happens 3 ,000 times a day. But again,

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I don't think people are taking pleasure from doing this kind of thing. It's a very hard decision.

02:48

Aren't they pleased, though, when they finish? Aren't they pleased that I made the right decision? I've known people that go through abortions, and they have felt the immense weight of what happened.

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Why? Because it's a lot to go through. Is it because it's killing a child? No, I don't think so. It's tough to look at it. Well, what is it?

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If it's tough to look at, sweetheart, should it be allowed? Think about it. Think about it.

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But brother, what is that? Biologically speaking. Yeah, it's like a fetus.

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Human, right? Human from conception. I mean, you're at LSU. I'm sure you've taken some biology classes here.

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Look, again, I think the choice isn't up to us.

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We should be able to kill people at will? I don't think it's the same. But is it human? Well, you know, back during the time of slavery, they would look at a black man and say, you know,

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I know it looks like a person that's not a person that's a black man, but fundamentally where that was an abomination is that we're all humans, and to oppress another human because I find them inconvenient or I think that they're less human than me or not fully developed, that's the same problem that happened in the

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Holocaust and in slavery. The plantation owners were arguing the same thing. I think that's a bit different when you equate enslaving an entire race of people devaluing humans.

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Why? Because that's like a little thing, like it's not

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So can I enslave a little black man? Again, he's like a conscious human with autonomy.

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This is not. As far as numbers wise, do you know? Oh, yeah. It's definitely disproportionate.

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Do you know there's a reason for that? Because Planned Parenthood sets up in mostly black neighborhoods?

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Because who are incapable of taking care of their kids? Do you know what Margaret Sanger said about the black race?

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She wanted to exterminate them? Yes, there's that thing about Planned Parenthood. They've done a great job.

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It's genocide. These communities cannot care for their kids.

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So kill them? It's not killing them. That's not killing? Well, that's a human being.

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How many years are you in your study here at LSU? Two. Have you taken any biology classes? So you know in biology classes, every biological textbook will tell you that all human life begins at conception.

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All human life. It does not say that. That's a fact of biology. It's not even disputed in the abortion industry.

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You are fully human from conception. Yes, you're not like a crocodile from conception.

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You're human. Everything about you and I, at the moment of conception, was determined.

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Eye color, your genetics, everything about you. The book that writes you was at that very moment.

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The only difference was the difference of degree. You were very small. You're not fully developed. So were one -year -olds and six -year -olds and nine -year -olds.

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They're still developing and they're still small. I think even taking a Plan B pill after you have sex and stuff like that, you really think that's bad too?

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If the human life was created, yeah. That's the unjustified taking of human life. And here's the thing, brother.

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My name's Jeff, by the way. Pleasure to meet you. The problem we would say here is that this isn't a problem of biology or what is the case.

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It's human from conception. That can't be disputed. It's a moral question because you agree like, okay, yeah, that's a human life.

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But it's a moral question. Should I be able to take the life of a child because it's inconvenient or because my circumstances are tough?

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And it's really an issue of sin. What about the accidents, though? The accidents when women don't want to get pregnant or people don't want to get pregnant and then they do.

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They get pregnant because they have sex. Well, yeah, that's a choice. You had sex and what happens in the world, but when you have sex, we know that if we have sex, you run the risk.

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You can get pregnant. We have measures in place to eliminate that risk.

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Right, to kill the babies. Moral measures. To kill the babies. That's the issue. Okay, by that argument, having sex before you're ready to have a kid is also a moral and I doubt that you'd find a lot of people...

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It goes down to it's another moral issue. Did God create us to be promiscuous and to have sex and create life and kill life or did

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God create us as unique, beautiful, wonderful creations of God that are in God's image.

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You have choices every day to sin or not sin, to love God or not love God and this is a choice to not love your neighbor.

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This is our neighbor. That's a result of those choices. God gave us the choice, right?

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He didn't give us the permission to murder others.

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He gave us a command. He said, you shall not murder. That's a command. Sure, and what happens to people who do murder?

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According to Jesus. God didn't take that option away. Actually, He never gave anybody an option.

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You have permission to kill. He said, you shall not murder. That's a command. We violate His law. There's a difference between God's permission and our violation.

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We say no to God. I will not love you. I will not love my neighbor. I will murder at will and that's the consequence.

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See, brother, this is a problem of sin. It's not a problem of just choice and you know, is that really a human?

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It's a human. It's a human life and we're murdering them. Well, I think we'll never fundamentally agree.

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Is that a human life? This is a loving challenge to you. Is it a human life? Yes. What is the unjustified taking of human life?

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Murder. But again, we I think the choice should still exist.

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I don't think you should take the choice away. Would you feel that way about Hitler? He should have had the choice to murder

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Jews? This is way different. How so? Way different. Well, it was human beings that he called parasites. He called them parasites.

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He said, Jews are not fully human. They're parasites. They had pamphlets they handed out over Germany calling the Jew the parasite.

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We know that that's evil because God's Word gives us a full comprehensive perspective of humanity but I think you know in your heart of hearts why that's evil because it's wrong to treat another human being like that.

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Hitler said, I determine that's not a full human like us. It's a parasite.

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We should be able to kill them. But in the abortion industry, we're saying the same thing about these little humans. I see it as a parasite.

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It's just a clump of cells but it's fully human. And we're dehumanizing them by saying, I can kill them at will.

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The clump of cells. You're a clump of cells. Yes. Again, autonomous, consciously thinking clump of cells.

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But like the clump of cells inside of someone's uterus. So if a human being, say, you and I, let's say you and I go out and get lunch together.

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We get in a bad car accident and you're not able to breathe on your own and you're no longer conscious. You're in a coma.

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Should someone be able to come in and kill you because you're no longer conscious and no longer autonomous? You're in a coma.

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Don't we work to preserve those lives? My parents, the people, you know, kind of over me, would have the authority okay, we're going to pull the plug or we're not going to pull the plug.

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Do you see the difference though? Stuff like that. Pulling the plug means letting nature take its course naturally. It's different than someone cutting your head off and your limbs off.

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That's what we're talking about here. This is not natural. This is sucking... So then we can all agree and say it should just be done more humanely then.

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No. No, no. We're not saying that at all because if you let this go naturally, what happens? A live birth.

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Necessarily. Well, it's a live birth. What happens when women get pregnant... I'm not instructing you. You know this, brother.

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When women get pregnant in our world and that baby's allowed to develop, women give birth. That's how

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God created us. But what we're doing here is we're going in and we're saying, I'm going to crush this baby's skull.

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I'm going to disembowel them. I'm going to suck their brains out of their head. That's not natural. That's unjustified taking of human life.

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And brother, I think you know that in your heart of hearts. The issue is sin. But again, we have the choice.

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God did not... How about the slave owners? They have the choice. Didn't God command?

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I'll give you a good example. In God's law, it actually says if you kidnap and enslave somebody, that deserves a death penalty.

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That was biblical law. And that flowed through history and that was one of the reasons why Christians were able to abolish slavery because they pointed directly to God's law and they said kidnapping and enslaving,

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God explicitly says is a capital crime. Plenty of Christians own slaves like that. And what were they doing?

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They were sitting against what they knew to be true. The word of God completely contradicted what they were doing.

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But when you say we have the choice, did those plantation owners have the choice? Should they have just been able to kidnap and enslave at will?

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Again, I think you're equating something that's completely not on the same level. Well, they were taking humans. They were taking humans.

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We both agree. Blacks are humans. They were taking humans, right? And they were dehumanizing them saying,

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I can do with them, this class of human, whatever I wish. It is the same. Because in this case, we're taking humans and saying

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I can do whatever I want with them. We have choices to do many things, but our choice to be able to do them doesn't necessitate that those things are moral or good and that's what he's trying to...

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But I'm saying that we do have the choice. But it doesn't make it right. And so we cannot take that choice away because he gave us the choice.

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We live in a fallen world and God gives us commands. We, as people made in his image...

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On the Ten Commandments, thou shalt not abort a baby. You should not murder. Murder in scripture is unjustified taking of human life.

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And then that's the fundamental... You keep trying to take it away, but that is our disagreement here.

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It's a command. We don't consider this to be human. I would challenge you to go to your library here.

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Look up any biological textbook related to this issue, this question of human life and you will see that without question, with no disagreement it is even disputed anymore and that's a fact.

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All human life begins at conception. It is human from conception. Have you ever seen, like, let's say a mangled human body, let's say whether it's on the internet or whatever it may be.

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Do you look at it and say that was a human? I'm not saying that it's because it's human, no. Have you ever seen a newborn baby?

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Or because it's mangled? I have seen a newborn baby. What's that?

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Not. Is it a human though? Isn't that the issue? It's on its way to becoming a human.

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Really? Why would you think that? Is that just subjective? It's arbitrary?

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I think it is subjective. That's what they said about the Jews. That's what he's saying is you're setting up categories to determine who can be protected.

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The categories you're setting up can lead to some great evils in society if we go according to your logic.

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They have led to great evils with the Holocaust, with slavery. Same issue.

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Can I ask you, try this. Tell me how you'd respond because I want to hear what you have to say. In Nazi Germany, you and I because I would say the

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Christian worldview influence in the world, we look at what happened not very long ago in the Holocaust and we say abomination, charge those guys to the fullest extent, give them the worst punishments ever in terms of justice.

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We would look there and say evil. And if we went there together, we'd be speaking out against it together. You can't treat them like that.

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But what would your argument be with the Germans in that day who said, yeah, no,

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I know it looks like a person. It's not a person. It's a parasite. We can do with them what we want.

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They did what you're doing now to these. But again, it's very different.

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How? Because those were conscious, autonomous people that they were calling parasites.

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But I already responded to that though, right? Like what happens to the guy in a coma? Do we have permission to kill him?

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They get to decide whether they want to pull the plug or keep him on the bus. But pulling the plug means just letting him die of natural causes.

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It's not being forced. Right. The car accident caused the natural cause.

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Yeah, exactly. The car accident caused the injury and the death. The family saying, let's let nature take its course.

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No, no, no. Nature took its course and it died. No, a human being went in and actually with malice of forethought, crushed the skull of the baby, decapitated him, disemboweled him.

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With malice? Or is that just the procedure? Well, it's malice of forethought. In other words, you think ahead of time, what

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I'm going to do to end the life of this human being. That's malice of forethought. Did you see?

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Were you raised in church? Yeah? So listen, the fundamental issue here, because you said it a minute ago, you said yeah, it's a moral issue.

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That's what it is. It's not biological. It's a moral issue. It wasn't a biological issue with slavery.

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Those blacks are as equally as human as everybody else. It wasn't an issue in the Holocaust. Jews are equally human as everybody else.

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It was always a moral question. It was evil, evil people, wicked people looking down their nose at black people and saying because of the color of your skin, because of your tribe,

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I am allowed to own you, control you, because you're less human than me. Same issue.

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Holocaust, looking down their nose saying, I see you as a parasite, I see you as evil, and so I can do with you and your children as I please.

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It's an issue of sin. It's always an issue of sin, and the only thing that can save us from that is Christ. He's God, who became man, lived perfectly, died for sinners and rose again from the dead for all people who trust in Him.

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But the issue here is fundamentally moral, and this culture has indoctrinated all of us.

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It's indoctrinated us. It's taught us to say yeah, less than human.

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And that's exactly how they felt during the time of slavery, is that it was common for people to look around black people and say yeah, less than human.

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He could be enslaved. Like if I walked by the auction block and I saw three black men standing up on posts in a marketplace, at the time it was common fair.

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People would go, yeah less than human. They're allowed to do that to them. But if you saw white people up on those posts, people would have been aghast.

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Wait, what are you doing? That's a superior human. You can only oppress those humans. It was always sin.

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And the only thing that freed us from the bondage of slavery was the gospel itself and the Christian worldview.

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And the only thing that's going to free us from this abomination is the gospel itself and the Christian worldview. Again, I don't think you could compare slavery and the

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Holocaust Can you refute it? Can you refute it? Yes, I've been trying to refute it this whole time.

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What he's trying to show is that you're using the same argumentation. He's refuting your argumentation by showing you how they use the same argumentation you do, but we can refute that.

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So he's showing that you're being inconsistent in your argumentation because it doesn't... Because you would fit in very well in principle with their argumentation.

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You just don't like who they were doing it to. You would say, your arguments are good, because you can have the choice to do that however you want, but I don't like that you're doing it to black people.

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I don't like you're doing it to Jews. We'll shift it over to these babies. Yeah, see what I'm saying? In principle, your argument is the same.

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You've just chosen a different class of human to dehumanize. Well, I've chosen humans.

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But that is human. Like, I can see how it would be, like, given the full term, yeah, but like...

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My two -year -old's not fully developed, bro, and he's fully dependent. But he's out, and he's conscious, and he's autonomous.

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So the birth canal is magical? Sure. Like, when I pass through it, I become human?

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Yeah. So isn't that completely... Okay, so now it's umbilical cord. So when they come out...

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So let's say the baby comes out, and up to that point, the mother and father wanted it. It comes out, and the parents go, you know what?

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Change of heart. Cut his head off. Can I do that? But they didn't cut the umbilical cord. You said, if the umbilical cord's cut, then it's human.

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Let's say they wait. Let's say they say, let's don't cut the... We'll call it birth canal. Birth canal.

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So the birth canal is magical. Yeah. Okay. So what makes you human is passing through the few inches of the birth canal.

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I like that. Do you see? Here's what's happening. Your arguments have failed in every category, so now you have actually gone to the arbitrary standard of saying, if you go through the vaginal canal, that makes you human.

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What about... Here you go. What about humans like all my kids? My wife couldn't actually give birth to the children.

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Her body's broken in that way. She had to have a c -section. Every one of my kids came out via c -section.

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They didn't pass their birth canal. So are they valuable today or no? Okay. So we'll say, once they're expulsed from the person's body.

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Okay. So your perspective is that what makes you valuable is your location?

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I think... Okay. Do you see how it's not working, brother? No. It's different.

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It's fundamentally different. I think you know, brother. You know. I'm not... I promise you this.

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I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm not trying to win an argument with you. I think you know. You know. I personally yes, no.

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Not the best look here, right? I believe in God. All that stuff. But I'm still pro -choice.

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Why? Because He gave us the choice. He actually gave us...

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He gave us the opposite, though. He said, you shall not murder. That's not a choice to murder. He's saying,

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I'm commanding you don't do it. I don't think this is murder. What's the unjustified taking of human life?

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Again, I think it's much different when the life is that little guy right there.

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Small? And like an autonomous being. She's small. Can I kill her? That's...

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You have to see that this is completely different. But you notice, brother, you're going from one argument when it fails, you go to the next one, to the next one, to the next one.

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You're like, it's small. Well, it doesn't look fully human. Well, I should just be able to kill it if I want to. I don't see it as the same class of human as me.

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Do you see how you have to kind of waffle between positions? Inconsistency is a sign of a failed argument for me and for you.

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For all of us. And so, if we're holding on to a position that is not tenable because it's just inconsistent and falling apart, it's wrong.

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Like, if we love the truth, if we love the truth, we won't want to hold on to inconsistent arguments. And I think you and I both have been indoctrinated by this culture and so we all can't help it.

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Media and all the rest. Teachers. And so we've been taught over the last 50 years to dehumanize other human beings and so even sometimes people raised in the church will say,

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I guess that's what we all believe. But what if it's wrong? What if it's sin? What if God says that it's sin? We can say that it's sin, but again, that is religion.

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Right? Outside of, you know, what we're talking about. Why? Because it's our religion.

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The beliefs that we hold. Everybody here is religious. So, the person that underwent this operation, if they are not religious,

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I don't get... Does that work in court? Think about it. A guy...

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Let's say a guy molests. He molests. This happens all the time. It's evil. It's an abomination.

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Let's say he molests five little girls under the age of five years old. He comes into court.

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The judge says this is immoral. This is wicked. And the person goes, I don't share your belief system.

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For me, it's a good happy thing. That is breaking the law, right? Whose law? Whose law?

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It's breaking the law. Whose law? Okay. Yes, the US law. Where'd that come from?

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Where'd that come from? I don't know. Biblical law, brother. Okay. God also says to follow the law of men and the king and stuff like that.

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Unless it contradicts his law. You must obey God rather than men. His law is transcendent. You're right about that.

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I'm not saying people are getting forced into having abortions and stuff like that. I'm just saying the choice... I wouldn't argue in that at all.

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My point was you said if someone doesn't share those religious beliefs, it doesn't apply to them. I'm saying try that in a court of law.

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Court judge says you're not allowed to molest children. You can't do this in a court of law. Because this is legal. If it's legal, it's moral?

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Slavery was legal. It's not anymore. When it was, was it moral? Yes, that's why you're changing the law.

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But again, they've already determined fine. Did you see what he did again there?

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You made one argument. If it's legal, it's moral. It doesn't work. Now you have to shift to a different thing.

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Anytime you and I have to hop between positions because they all fail, maybe we should stop and consider...

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I'm just trying to get you from a different angle. You're trying everything you can. I'm reasoning with you because I'm not trying to win an argument to beat you or anything.

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I'm trying to expose the fact that you know what's going on. You know that it's evil. In your heart of hearts, you know it.

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I want to encourage you with something. The main thing I want you to hear is this. This is an issue of sin.

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You said you were raised in the church. This is sin. The only thing that saves us from our sin is Christ and Christ alone.

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Turning from sin and trusting in Him. Jesus Christ defines this as murder. If He's your

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Lord... He's the lawgiver. If He's your Lord... Is He your Lord? Abortion is the unjustified taking of human life.

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That's a euphemism. Thank you. Are we losers? Now we're losers?

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I think what happens... A moment ago, you were saying that Christ was your Lord. You believed.

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Is it offensive? Can I ask you a question?

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You said women don't want to have abortions? Yes, women don't. How come 3 ,000 are dying a day?

25:31

Because they have to. Can I ask you a question? I adopted my son.

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My name is Jeff. I adopted my son. He was going to be aborted. I adopted him. So your argument's failed, isn't it?

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And why is it hard for women to have an abortion? Why? Why is it hard?

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You said it hurts her. What did you call it?

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So you should be able to kill the baby. There you go. You should listen to what she just said.

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Thank you. You said women don't take pleasure in it. That's how we started.

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No, no, no. She just refuted your position. But I just showed you that this is the face of abortion.

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You tried to protect it. This is the real face. She said, I should be able to kill that shit if I want to. Her baby.

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So should I be able to rape a baby if I want to? You said you should be able to kill a baby if you want to.

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It's not your body. The baby is not your body. Your cells.

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Human cells. Your argument's failed, isn't it? The baby's body is not your body.

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You're a dumb man. What if I wanted to stop sex trafficking?

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Can I do it because I'm not a woman? I'm asking you to reason with this.

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I don't have a uterus. Can I stop sex trafficking? You're not doing that. That's obsolete. You don't have a penis, so you shouldn't talk to the guys that are sex trafficking.

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You can't think about it because your logic is tainted with sin. Your argument...

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You're very religious. Your argument is, if I don't have a uterus,

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I can't speak against this atrocity. You don't have a penis. You don't have a penis, so you can't do sex trafficking.

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You can't speak... I'm not trying to make you mad. Your arguments have failed to kill their babies.

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There you go. To murder their babies. I'm glad you admitted it. You need to turn from your sin and trust in Christ because you just advocated for murdering your own child.

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That's what you just said. To murder her child.

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You said to murder her child. Your arguments failed. Turn from your sin. We're abolishing abortion in your state.

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Our bill's already in. It's being heard on Wednesday. We're going to a... Why don't you show a picture of that?

28:32

Go to endabortionnow .com Check out this photo.