October 30, 2008

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line first things first big announcement big announcement that the net that next
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Tuesday next Tuesday We have a time change for the dividing line. The dividing line will air at this time, which could use everybody
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Completely out of their brains because you all are changing your clocks this weekend So we are going to get all sorts of nasty emails
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No, we're just doing it the regular Thursday time next Tuesday got it got to do that got something going on in the morning and You all could be completely lost because it's that time again
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And the funny thing is I was and I've mentioned it down the blog. I was in Mexico and they did it last weekend Can you imagine the poor people that have to fly planes when people are changing clocks at different places
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So anyway, we we of course Here in in Arizona where we honor time we honor the creation of time will not be changing our clocks
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We we just will allow time to continue on as it does and the Sun will move up and down the sky at the same time and We will just continue on our lives and the rest of you will be running around the house going
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I don't remember which button to push to set this one back Margaret, and it'll be a real mess.
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So Anyhow, that's first things first. So next Tuesday afternoon dividing line on Tuesday and no dividing line on Thursday Because I haven't figured out a way to do a dividing line from 38 ,000 feet in the air that's because that's when
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I'm heading for London and So we're gonna try as best we can from London To do some dividing lines depending on what my schedules like And who knows maybe we'll have all
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British dividing lines again. It's so popular with people. I recognize that And we discuss so many requests
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It's really hard to say as a straight face Anyway, so we'll do that now we are sitting here in on pins and needles folks
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I mean, we are so excited. We don't know which ends up here in in the dividing line studios
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We are sitting here watching the the the phone banks eight seven seven seven five three three three four one that's a toll -free number and We're doing so because we're supposed to have someone calling in today and let me explain what's going on Why some of you may have seen my recent video where I went through William Albrecht's video on the issue of Eldership and the priesthood in the
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New Testament and I did so because once again Jerusalem Jones Steve Ray had recommended it on his blog.
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Well lo and behold I Started this this afternoon logged into YouTube and someone had sent me a note and I actually followed the link
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I rarely do but actually followed the link because the guy said this guy's could call in on the Thursday dividing line So I follow the link and guess what?
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It was it was to William Albrecht and lo and behold He had sent me that link because he posted two responses to Turrets and fam from the blog who put up a short article a couple days ago on the subject of Mary and some of the
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Pope had said so I took the time to listen to watch the second part of these videos
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I don't want to offend William too much, but I Generally don't listen or watch his videos very much.
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I did find this one fascinating because there's a skull in the background Yes, it's
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Halloween There's something I don't know All Saints Day must be All Saints Day. But anyway
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Let me play this for you and We'll just we'll just let you
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Understand for yourself. It's gonna be hard for me It's actually seven minutes long. I'm not gonna be able to stop.
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I'm keep myself from stopping this but still We'll we'll listen to what
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William has say here cuz he well he explains he's gonna call in today and set us all straight Demonstrate that that he knows what he's talking about.
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So here's here's William Albrecht We're gonna have to stop and I'm gonna note real quick That um, what's more this blogger is not
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James White is a person that James White promotes on Alpha Omega ministries and It's quite funny that James White would allow such a scholarship to be put in his own website, but This passage
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I mean who's that man is one such passage that we are told That Jesus is basically condemning adoration
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Or veneration towards Mary. All right, so the Bible get your Bibles up Mark chapter 3 33 to 35 mark 3 to 33 33 to 35, excuse me
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And he answered them saying who is my mother and my brother or my brethren, excuse me And he looked around about it on them
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Which which is sad about him and said behold my mother and my brethren For so whosoever shall to the will of God the same is my brother and my sister and my mother well, we must ask
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A omen Alpha Omega ministries or just ask James what to clarify? We're in the Greek Maybe you know
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James true. You're a Greek expert a I've been teaching Greek for like what 20 years 30 years I mean,
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I wasn't even born since you've been teaching Greek for so long. You're like the pro in it, right? Or maybe we can ask a
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James to um exegete the Aramaic, right? I mean, maybe James has a secret
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Aramaic copy or the Latin or the Spanish or I mean, where can we exegete this passage and find out that Christ is
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Castigating someone due to the radiation of Mary. I Mean in what language can we figure that out in or is it only in the
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James White again twisting of Scripture type of language? Then we can find such an interpretation Like I said,
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I wasn't gonna get through the whole thing without stopping it and making a commentary, of course Mm -hmm.
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I don't have access to any Aramaic that I leave that to Rome to come up with all that Fanciful that or Dave hunt one or two.
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They they're they're the ones that seem to come up with with Aramaic if you look back at the blog article that That William is pretending to respond to Turretin fan
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Had quoted both Matthew 12 42 50 and Mark chapter 3 verses 33 through 35
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And then he had said it is almost as though Jesus was concerned lest some might foolishly fall in the trap of worshiping his blood
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Relatives indeed here is Jesus own condemnation of the error of adoration and veneration of Jesus mother
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They do not hold a special place in the kingdom of God But are like all those who do the will of God yet Catholicism as can be seen from this event continues to elevate
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Mary improperly to the status of in effect a goddess to whom prayers are Offered and then he goes on to talk about Benedict the 16th
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You know, it is reported that quote in a gesture of filial love the Pope then offered the
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Madonna a golden rose and quote and so obviously If William took the time to read such works as Eric's fences work on on Mary Or other serious works on the subject than he would know that This text is one of the classical texts that comes up in almost any debate on the subject of the veneration of Mary Because it demonstrates that this is not something that is taught in the
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New Testament There is no evidence this in the New Testament and here you have a perfect opportunity for Jesus to launch into a
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Lengthy diatribe and discussion of How we should all venerate Mary and how he should just drop what he's doing right there and listen to what
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Mary has to say What does he do? He does not say that at all
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He says who is my mother and who are my brethren and he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples and said behold my mother and My brethren for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven the same as my brother and sister and mother
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The point is the the text simply does not give rise to the kind of exaltation of Mary that has taken place in The many centuries that have passed since these words were originally written and the problem with William and I've said this many times
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I've tried to explain it to him in my videos in response to him but he is clearly not able to understand this part is that he is trapped in the anachronism of modern
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Rome Catholicism He reads back into church history the modern definitions that Rome offers as if these have always been
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What people have believed I've documented this in his own videos where he just makes this direct statement that is what always believe
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Everyone's always with us. Well, he's wrong and he doesn't seem to recognize that it is incumbent upon him to demonstrate
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Something more than just simply throwing out statements and saying well, that's what the church teaches So that's just all the way it's been so you're wrong.
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No, you have to go back into history And in this instance We're looking at the New Testament and you have to be able to set aside all those developments that came
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Long long after this period of time and simply ask the question. Is this an apostolic teaching member?
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We just finished the Madrid debate here on the dividing line. And what did what did Patrick finish his talk?
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but by saying that these were Apostolic traditions. These are things the
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Apostles taught. Okay, where a document it show us Here we have apostolic teaching here.
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We have the teaching Found in the Gospels themselves relating to us the teachings of Jesus Christ Where in this do you find this elevation of Mary as we see in modern
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Roman Catholicism? Well, you do not and here's a perfect opportunity for Jesus to have Expanded all these things and said all these things and what does he do?
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He looks at his disciples. You want to be my mother my brother my sister. You want to be part of my family?
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It's in doing the will of God That you are in my family. It is not the filial relationships the physical relationships that were those of the incarnate one
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That's brought these things about and so just providing mockery is not argumentation
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William is very good at this, but that's all he's good at. He you know when he says well exegete this text.
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Okay. Well There's been plenty of people who've done that There's been plenty who have demonstrated this text says exactly we say it says it's there's no no nothing
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Mysterious about the original languages or anything else, but just simply to to mock is not to argue
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Generally the one if you mock before you argue that means you have no argument Generally if you have argued and demonstrated a position is utterly irrational and then a person
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Continues to hold that irrational position. Well, then maybe mockery is fitting at that point But you get them mixed up and backwards when when you do something like this.
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It must be that it's a new type of language Anyway, I guess I'll wait a few years or so. But anyway, this is an open challenge to debate anyone.
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I don't care who Busy with your schedule fine. I'll call into the DL dividing line.
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I just want to know I just want to know a few things mainly one thing Just where does the church say that we worship
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Mary or that we where does the church say that we worship Mary now? It wasn't that long ago.
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I don't think That we went through this entire subject very carefully here on the dividing line when we went through the veneration of Saints and angels debate we played an entire opening statement where I went through Issues relating to the
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Hebrew term avad and its translation the Greek septuagint with various terms
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Latreau and do you oh and we talked about the nature of worship and we talked about the fact that the entire concept of the
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Idea that well Mary gets hyper veneration see and and Julia, you know that that can be given to saints and angels but and the
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Latria that's only to God and then there's this This middle type hyper veneration hyper
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Julia, I guess that That that Mary gets and and we just basically demonstrated that none of this has any biblical foundation whatsoever it's not there and If you derive your faith from the living words of Scripture and it's not there
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That means it cannot be binding upon you what Rome does it goes backwards. It's the anachronism of tradition and you come up with your beliefs and then you go back to the text of Scripture and you find some way of Getting it between these two cracks here and that those two cracks over there and and they're trying to Jimmy it in this this place or that place and You just give up on the idea of actually deriving any of this from the text of Scripture instead what you do is you say well, it doesn't contradict the text of Scripture and that's the best that you can possibly come up with as a person who does not practice solo scriptura and So we've defined these things and we've basically said, you know, you know member when when
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Madrid brought up Where is the church ever said that we worship well, we recognize that the
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Roman Catholic Church makes a distinction the whole point of our argument from the beginning from and I can trace this back to the time of the
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Reformation and You could actually trace it back even earlier than that on other in other contexts The point is that the distinction is a distinction without a difference.
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It has no meaning. It's a it's a word game It is it is specifically a word game meant to get you around the real issue and That is that you are giving
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Veneration and it is religious veneration. Therefore it is worship. I Have used the analogy many times if Moses had found
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Someone had been found in the in the camp of Israel bowing down before a statue of an ancestor and had been brought before in Moses and had said well
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They had said Moses come on. I wasn't worshiping the statue.
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I was venerating the statue Do you really think that that? Argumentation would have worked.
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Do you think most of off? Of course you you were serving the statue You were not worshiping.
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Well, then everything's okay. Go go ahead go back to it. Enjoy burn Burn the candles and bow down and mutter the prayers and do everything you want because now we understand
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You weren't worshiping the statue. You were just venerating the statue
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Well, I'm sorry. Where do you get that? How do you derive that especially since that one that one
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Hebrew word avad is Rendered by both Latreau and Delio when when
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Paul says in Galatians Speaking of the time before the Galatians became believers That they serve those which by nature are not gods
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Do you really think he was distinguishing between they were just serving them but not worshiping them. I mean this this kind of absurdity is
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What results when you? Allow sola scriptura to be denied and you allow
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Rome to start defining these types of things Promote her worship. I mean, this is a whole argument in this article the article and alpha making ministries is promoting the fact that capitalists worship name and I Do plan to call the deal in James leave maybe leave one line open to be dirty
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Colin Hey, Rich, could we could we check is one line open? There's one we got any others
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I Don't see any at all. There's three. There's there's three that are open right now
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So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number I keep looking over there making sure you keep an eye on it, too
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All right, we've got two sets of eyes here. So we we don't want to miss a Williams call Because it'd be very important because he just said he's he's calling in.
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So Any statement of any early father, you know
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And I'd like to know where her veneration is being outright condemned in this passage So I want to know
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Anyone give it a shot moving on quoting more of ailment Benedict the 16th did not even omit to provide a sacrifice to this de facto goddess
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It is reported that in a gesture fill your love the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose
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What is reminded immediately of the similar offerings presented by the Philistines the Ark of the Covenant in the
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Old Testament And I'm laughing because this person's obviously attempting to own Humiliate Catholics, I guess particularly given
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Catholicism's claim or at least a claim of her apologies that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant like Anyhow, well
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Benedict must have been a heretic, right? Keep it a rose before the bridge. Well Well, let me see from from the position of from the position
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Hmm would Benedict be a heretic? Oh, yeah
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You know, he claims to be the Vicar of Christ And the infallible head of the church
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Yeah, I you know, it's fairly common For believing Protestants to think that Benedict is just a little bit off Just just just a tad bit and we've done in debates for years and years demonstrating that that's
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I don't know It's just a little bit humorous to me that that a Catholic would find it unusual that we would think that the
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Pope is just a tad bit off on Theology it might be a little heretical just just just tad
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Just just a little bit off -center there to Mary offering a sacrifice as if Mary is a pagan goddess, right?
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No way at all. Of course the analogy fails unless your brain is made up of scrambled eggs that is
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Sacrifices scrambled what I? Didn't even understand that what was great that wasn't scrambled eggs.
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What was it? Was it scrambled eggs? I could I couldn't even understand under the normality We're very different in the context of people worshiping the goddess in the pagan sense or of any sense you want to say
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Therefore unless you are of the silly persuasion Because it is silly that so life is in so the scriptura are biblical
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Then only then could this analogy make sense to you at what you know At least he got that one
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Because what he just admitted is if you just go with the Bible Then your analogy would make sense and that's the whole point you see we judge
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Roman Catholic piety and practice by the revealed Word of God and That's why
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Turretin fan comes to the conclusions that he does
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See Turretin fan is is like one of those old Puritan guys You know he doesn't really mince his words
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And he pretty much writes like the Puritans did or like well like Francis Turretin did that?
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Probably is where the name comes from comes from and very straightforward in what he says and so he he speaks and Judges based upon what the
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Word of God says and not based upon what someone 1 ,200 years later But the Word of God said based upon all sorts of traditions that had accrued over time
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Etc. Etc. Etc. So yeah, he got that one right and if you if you actually believe in Sola Scriptura you believe the scriptures of the sufficient revelation of the
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Word of God that they are God breathed And they're the final court of authority. Yeah there. We we we do agree.
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We got something we can agree on that's it. That's a good thing Moving on quoting a
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Oman more Finally we should note the Benedict is reported not to have left Jesus entirely up the secret of Pompeii is the
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Rosary But in fact sadly it is an extra he mentions Jesus between those lines
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But in fact sadly it is an extra scriptural innovation This is ailment referring to the
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Rosary Unknown to the apostles and unpracticed for centuries and centuries following Christ's ascension
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The early church fathers didn't say the Rosary and neither should you it is a tradition of men not of God well
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My commentary now, this is more silliness from ailment Now listen carefully here because you see do just go online and Google the
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Rosary read Roman Catholic sites about the subject the Rosary. They'll tell you when it started
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The standard story the story even told by Popes is that it comes from the 12th century
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Now some have said well, it's it's a little early in that 9th century Irish prayers.
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Well, all this stuff is evolutionary in its character Nothing just pops up overnight and So you can try to find a little something here listen in there
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But even Popes have said that Mary gave this and that she did so in the 12th century
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Okay You'll find that on all sorts of Roman Catholic websites.
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You don't have to go to some quote -unquote anti Catholic website Just go to Catholic websites, and they'll tell you that so let's let's listen to this
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Incredible rebuttal inspect less from this individual who has no grasp of this misuse you to the biblical text
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Even erroneously making comments that not even James would have said divisions among within ailment
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Who knows we're told that Jesus wasn't left entirely out of this prayer Hinting that he was barely mentioned, right?
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I mean that is the context of what this blogger is saying Well, in fact the complete form of the prayer in English translated and I've read it all
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Translated we have the words God Lord Christ Holy Spirit and the gospel of Christ used over over and over and over as the main focus of this papal commentary
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It is a sad distortion when one doesn't even research the facts and simply wants to twist the truth out of context
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Now of course William does claim all the time to have this tremendous capacity to Read the hearts and minds of others as to what their motivations are and he can do so remotely
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It's it's an amazing skill. Just just fantastic never met anyone who has that kind of that kind of power and ability
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But anyway, this this is what he does here And so when you have a prayer focused upon Mary almost anything that I've read from Rome We'll talk about Jesus and the
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Spirit and things like that. The point is what is its heart? What is its focus? What is it trying to get people to do when you teach people that they are to fear?
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Jesus because he is judge and need to go to Mary as the mediator because she's merciful. Don't tell me you're leading people to Jesus Okay, that's a false
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Jesus the false gospel and it means you don't even begin to understand the gospel itself now we've we've
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Established this kind of stuff over and over again in the past I you know We're repeating ourselves.
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But anyway, that's just one comment in regards to Williams response here.
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We're told the Rosary leads people away from Christ and it's anti -scriptural this coming from a person that doesn't realize the prayers are simply meant to lead towards Christ and This coming from a person that believes in doctrines that are probably newer than when his family line began
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This practice was not in usage Idea what doctrines he thinks they're newer than when his family line began
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Who who knows? I mean it again. You didn't just throw this stuff out there and and And hope something sticks maybe it's supposed to sound good.
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Anyways We still we still got open lines eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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We still still we're making sure that that you know as William had said you want us to open line for him?
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and so we're That sound that sounds like a good solid signal. Yep. That's good. So eight seven seven seven five three three three
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Four one that's toll free number. You might want to say this lower eight Seven five three
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I do say it way too fast and the only reason is because I have it memorized but I am reading it
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It's terrible. It's right there. It's right, you know, I mentioned when I was down Mexico I was I was like, oh no, I might have to say the number.
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Well, I remember it well, I look like an idiot cuz I Remember a number of said how many how many thousands of times
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I said that no, who knows eight seven seven seven five three three three four one which spells nothing
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I Hate when you find that on a website where they people spell it out It's not on my cell phone anymore.
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I can't figure that out for love your money I got sit there and go man Do I have an old rotary phone around here someplace
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I can find and figure out what that is eight seven seven five three three three four one juice and centuries
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Till after Christ ascended we're told okay I've heard a good episode this isn't remember what this blogger says
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This practice was not in usage for centuries and centuries till after Christ Ascended.
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Okay, the early fathers had no usage of a rosary. We're also told well
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Any person well -versed in church history would not make such a silly comment silly
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Fully being aware that a type of rosary was around and prevalent in the desert fathers. Whoa type of rosary
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Which rosary are we talking? What do you mean type of rosary? Monks had lots of prayers, but are you actually claiming that all those
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Roman Catholic sites? I mean just just go the Catholic. How about the Catholic Encyclopedia is a Catholic Encyclopedia good enough
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I think the Catholic Encyclopedia is probably good enough Specifically tells us that st.
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Dominic earnestly besought the help of Our Lady was instructed by her so tradition asserts to preach the rosary among the people as an antidote to heresy and sin from that time forward this manner of prayer was most wonderfully published abroad and developed by st
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Dominic whose different supreme pontiffs have in various past ages their apostolic letters Declared to be the institutor and author of the same devotion were the
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Pope's right and William were the Pope's wrong and Williams, right? Is that is that we're getting here?
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I mean at you know you never know the Pope's didn't have access to the web, so it's it's a possibility
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I suppose but Something tells me that's probably what this blogger a aka
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Turretin fan was referring to Maybe if we just like take a break during the break
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Because William's so busy taking down notes on all this maybe during the break William will give us a call eight seven seven seven five three
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Three three four one. We'll be right back The Trinity is a basic teaching of the
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Christian faith it defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book
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The Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a
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Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit the Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the
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Trinity Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended
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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a o min org Alpha and Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the
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These 12 instrumental favorites will bless and inspire you as you entertain guests and spend a
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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality
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Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book
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The same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the
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Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including
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Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures. They refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner
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They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people
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The same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen .org
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I get some Tim Janus bumper music on here pretty soon and welcome back to the dividing line
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As you notice between the commercials there, we we kept monitoring things very very carefully very very professionally
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We've got to keep an eye on this equipment Make sure that when that phone call comes in we're ready to go and we're right out of time here.
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We only got you know, 20 Five minutes left 25 minutes left
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Just thinking of the old days you remember Craig Ray Oh, I just back in KGP and he would call in with five minutes to go on the show.
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Yes That was always a good way to do it. Go it makes those last five minutes go real real fast
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Well, we're almost done here. We're at 6 minutes and 12 seconds of 7 minutes and 10 so we're almost done with with Williams in -depth response to to Turret and fan of the church in the early centuries a man, oh by the way,
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I Was looking at some information
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And I have a feeling what he's referring to is the fact that a lot of religions
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That have that do the repetitive prayer thing that Jesus condemned a lot of religions that do that When you've got to do repetitive prayers got to do the same prayer over and over again
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You normally find a way to you know, keep count. Do you know the Muslims have things look very much like rosary beads?
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Oh, yeah, they do almost every religion has something like that and there were for example that same article on new advent org talks about Similarly beside the mummy of a
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Christian ascetic Thais of the 4th century recently disinterred at Antoine Antinoui in Egypt was found a sort of cribbage board with holes
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Which has generally been thought to be an apparatus for counting prayers Of which
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Palladius and other ancient authorities left us an account. So counting prayers is nothing new
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The question is to whom were they addressed and what did they say and Of course
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Turretin fan was talking about the rosary. It wasn't talking about counting prayers or anything like that So to just throw something like that out as if somehow that's a meaningful response again is one of the main problems
35:12
With William now again people are going. Well, why would you pick on this poor guy? Well because Steve Ray Us Jerusalem Jones himself the man who appears on Catholic answers live and answers theological historical and biblical questions a
35:28
Man who has written a running commentary on the Gospel of John published by Ignatius press recommends that we listen to William Albrecht and so we are because Jerusalem Jones told us to and because William himself said he was he was calling in and To the dividing line a tradition that is exactly what solar scripture is not the devotion that is directed towards God and the rosary
35:56
So I will end with this one simple challenge James seems to have taken my videos to his reputation liking lately.
36:03
Well, let's take this a bit further James I think what he said was James has taken my videos to his reputation liking lately.
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I think that's what that was and what he's referring to is I Refuted corrected demonstrated that he was wrong in his assertions about the priesthood and presbyteros and Episcopal and that he had used an artificial
36:27
Limitation of the New Testament text in limiting things only to the pastoral epistles. He was ignoring
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Peter the general epistles and Revelation he was ignoring the book of Acts Which sheds much more light and totally destroys his theories?
36:40
He had his even confused the terms himself as to how many times they appeared mix them up And then wrote me an email talking about all my straw man argumentation in my video
36:51
Which of course he hasn't documented any of that either so That's that's the background of that.
36:58
I'm gonna call you call your show on Thursday We have a little short little conversation in our conversation
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You can tell me where the church worships Mary or says in any official document that we should worship her
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Let me know. Let me know James. I'm really eager to call him And I really find your article attempting to one
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Repeat my video series in the priesthood article in the priesthood interesting. I Would hope so Hopefully by teeth by Tuesday, maybe
37:26
Wednesday. I'll have a reputation to that but um Hopefully you can fix a scholarship a daredevil man.
37:32
It seems like um, it's gone down a notch God bless Yeah, the
37:39
Scholarship has here at a omen has gone down a notch. That's why he confuses presbyteros
37:46
Episcopal reverses them how many times they appear he ignores the stuff in Acts and in Peter and Yeah, that's that's he's going to call in and fix us up.
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Well Now's time We've left the lines open eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is is the number and so There you go.
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Ringing yet. Not ringing. Oh, but there it is. Oh, that's you
38:28
Man nothing there. Okay. All right. Well Well, we'll leave it open and I will try if we talk about anything else.
38:35
I will I will try to Keep it short so that when when
38:41
William calls and he helps us fix up our scholarship here at At on the
38:47
DL and then we can we can do that. So Just one last time eight seven seven seven five three three three four one now
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There's some discussion going on that he may be consulting with Jonathan pre gene or a guardian
39:03
Regarding how he should handle this Guardian that's been a long time since we heard from Guardian Didn't how much how many did we give him six months from Guardian was when he told us that he was going to do a bunch of research and That's right.
39:19
Well, like I said, you know what sometimes that keyboard There's something about the anonymity of the keyboard that just makes some people significantly braver than they really should be in in real life and At least yes, it just struck me he needs to really call because we're starting to get a list
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We are getting a list folks that you know Long on the talk and the challenge but on web or the proof
39:49
Catholic answers forums YouTube. Yeah, it's well and look what I've done with YouTube I turned off all my comments and every day
39:56
I Get a hate message about that. I mean the Dawkins video Six months what almost seven months now after I posted it
40:04
I still get daily hate mail from atheists about the Dawkins video one Can you imagine if I actually took the time to actually really critique the guy to any level?
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My goodness my email box would explode. I wouldn't be able to read anybody else's email
40:20
Not that I really spend much time reading email on YouTube. Anyways, uh because there's really no way to filter that stuff, but uh
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I it's just it's just amazing, but I put right on the beginning of my YouTube page Hey for two hours a week most weeks.
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I mean like this week next week. Okay It's only one hour next week because I'm traveling all the way to London, but I make myself available
40:43
It's a toll -free number. It doesn't even cost you any money to call and How many people call?
40:50
You know these these 17 year old atheists Who are just so wise and know all things now
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All they want to do is be able to vent from behind a keyboard. They don't want to actually have to talk to somebody Because then you actually have to respond and you have to reason and that's it's a bad thing.
41:11
So anyway, um, oh I just saw something in in channel We evidently have a
41:17
Roman Catholic channel or I suppose Francis could be someone who's not a Roman Catholic I am seeing Scott Hahn this weekend have white and Han ever gone head -to -head
41:25
Well, Scott Hahn has had a standing challenge to debate since January of 1990
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There were at least 30 people standing around when I challenged him to debate on the steps of the Roman Catholic Church in El Cajon where I just debated
41:40
Mitchell Pacwa and we have reiterated that challenge many many times and Once in 1994
41:50
I was invited by a Catholic attorney to go to Dallas to engage in a debate with Scott Hahn and soul scripture the next day
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The attorney called me back and withdrew the invitation and told me that when he had faxed my name to Scott Hahn His people had written back if whites there.
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I'm not so It has not been for want of willingness and attempts on our part
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But I have said many many times before that Scott Hahn has absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by engaging in a debate on the issues that he has published his works
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On especially in regards to Mary and things like that when Scott Hahn puts out a book It's published in hardback.
42:40
It costs 24 bucks and people snap it up And that would not be improved by his debating me on any of these issues and so I Do not expect that that will ever happen, but that is not because we have ever declined an invitation to debate
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Scott Hahn or Carl Keating or Jimmy Akin or Tim Staples or any of these individuals
43:09
That are out there these days we have engaged all of them who are willing and There are a number of others who are not willing to engage in scholarly moderated public debate that's just the way it goes and Some that we have debated in the past.
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We don't debate any longer because they now represent well themselves They've gone their own way and they're doing their own thing
43:35
And at least if we want to engage in debate We want to represent something that is going to have a meaningful application
43:41
Outside of just some tiny little schismatic group off in some corner someplace We would like to be able to address people in a little broader fashion, so that is in answer to Something that was said in the channel don't know if the individual who was saying that is listening
43:59
Hopefully they are so that that answer was given to them If not, at least they can be directed to the archive of the program if I remember to blog it
44:08
Because I caught myself having not blogged the one from last Thursday until today
44:15
At least gave me opportunity to listen to it make sure the file was there so I could hear what Skype sounded like and and Stuff like that.
44:21
So anyway Could you do a Skype to Skype call -in? Oh Yeah, not yet Well, I I mean, yeah,
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I know I've only got it on this machine yet But we are working on being able to do that eventually And we will have a
44:36
Skype address that someone can call in and and go from there So that's that's good eight seven seven seven five three three three four one once again
44:44
For those of you listening in the London area heading your direction a week from today
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I would most definitely on a very serious side here Ask for your prayers during this time the sickest
45:00
I have ever gotten in Traveling was the first time I went to London.
45:06
I was stuck against the bulkhead and a very small MD 80 from here to Chicago with a guy sitting in the middle seat who was coughing his head off and Three days later
45:17
I was doing the exact same thing and That was the sickest I've ever gotten I really felt terrible about that because my dear friend
45:25
Roger Brazier and His church had me speaking He will tell you
45:31
I did speak for him on that Saturday. I think it was a Saturday and I did my best but honestly
45:39
Honestly, I called a halt to it in the afternoon when I knew I was within two minutes of either passing out or throwing up all over the audience one of the two and That's when
45:50
I called a halt to it and I Feel very badly about that, but that's the sickest
45:56
I ever got so obviously that is something to pray for for my health I have not actually been sick now for about at least fully sick for about 20 months and so I am hoping to continue that despite the lengthy travel time that it takes to get from here to the
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UK in a hermetically sealed airtight metal tube with Hundreds of other people which is a really good way of getting exposed to everything in the
46:25
Sun So but pray for us for traveling mercies along those lines And then of course there are all sorts of you know when you try to set up debates
46:34
There are all sorts of little details that come along You know especially when they're at different locations
46:40
And so every location has its challenge of getting set up and you know Or you can use digital projector or you can put the screen or the people you know sound recording
46:50
There's just so many things along those lines that's and one thing
46:56
I am looking forward to big time is while Parliament was
47:01
Debating draconian measures to decrease co2 emissions in the
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UK it snowed Ah London was blanketed in snow the earliest know they've had since I think 1922
47:19
Maybe Eventually the words gonna get out folks if you haven't heard this all the major weather reporting services in the world confirm this
47:31
There is no global warming Over the past two years
47:37
The Sun has become so quiet that The global temperature has dropped back to where it was in 1930
47:51
Okay So we've lost almost 80 years worth of Quote -unquote global warming all right, so somebody
48:04
Communicate that to Al Gore and the people who are trying to siphon more money out of your pocket for this silliness
48:11
That which we can't control anyways because folks little known fact The temperature of the earth is determined by that big bright glowing fireball in the sky and It doesn't have a thermostat on it at least we don't have access to one okay
48:33
I just detest pseudoscience when it is used by leftist liberals to Ruin my life anyhow
48:44
Let there let there be truth, so I am looking forward to the fact that I'm going to get to Use a jacket
48:55
Phil Johnson the folks at grace to you gave me this beautiful green. It's one of those micro fleece things you know master's seminary jacket
49:06
Sometime around I got it. I don't know a while back and Of course I haven't been able to use it yet because what's the temperature outside today 92 93 or something
49:16
We've got this blocking high over, Arizona. That's just messing everything up, so I'm actually get to use it when
49:22
I go to London, and I'm really looking forward to that. We have a phone call it, please Nothing against Stephen in Los Angeles, but please don't get too excited
49:31
It it isn't it isn't William So I was gonna say I have a phone call and everybody's get all excited
49:36
And I don't want anybody to be disappointed with Stephen But I just want to let Stephen to know before I put him on that if the phone rings between now and about 30 seconds
49:46
Before the end of the program, and it says William. I'm gonna go there We're gonna try so let's talk with Stephen in Los Angeles.
49:55
Hi Stephen. Hi. How you doing? I'm doing well I Just want to say first of all
50:01
I've greatly appreciated your ministry. You found it very helpful in the past ever since I Discovered it a couple of years ago
50:10
And I want to ask you something that it's something I've wondered about for a while And I thought it actually kind of ties in I know you've been doing a lot of study of Islam But basically kind of what your opinion is about Polygamy like what a
50:26
Christian position is on that and especially you know like let's say you were in a Muslim society and and someone was a
50:33
Polygamist and they converted you know like how would you handle a situation like that? That's not an easy one.
50:39
Well. I don't think there's any question about the Christian position on the subject of polygamy It's not just that the elders of the church are to be a one -woman man but Jesus his own teaching on the subject makes it very clear that the exercises of polygamy and and concubinage by the
50:58
The Kings of Israel and things like that was a departure from the high standard that was established
51:04
In the Garden of Eden Jesus own teaching was from the beginning He made them male and female and then when he speaks about Adam and Eve coming together.
51:13
He makes that the paradigm for marriage and the
51:19
Multiplication of those things that comes about at a later time due to various and sundry things but Still the the establishment of those things is a step down just as a number of well even the kingship
51:32
Let's face it even the concept of royalty was a step down Because God himself said am
51:38
I not enough for you and yet you're you want a king and so there were Many steps that the people of God took during that time period that were moving away
51:48
But that's partly what you see in the Sermon on the Mount you have heard it said to you But I say to you and then
51:55
Jesus establishes these very high standards for the kingdom of God and the attitudes that are to be ours now obviously that does then lead to The question that you brought up and and that is what if you're dealing with a polygamist culture
52:09
Islam is another step down Mormonism another step down from the high standard that Jesus himself establishes and I would you know,
52:21
I don't live in an Islamic country. I've never faced the the issue but my initial thought just off top of my head would be that you
52:31
Would honor the first marriage that was made and then the church as a body of believers
52:38
Would seek to provide some means of care for Any of those wives, of course, there can only be four unless you're
52:49
Muhammad then you get pretty much all you want, but sorry, but Care for those other women
52:58
Because especially in many Islamic countries, that would be a matter of life and death In other words the the economy is such that to lose that Relationship would probably lead to starvation or something else along those lines, which would be extremely negative
53:11
So any of those who would likewise? Follow after Christ would probably be treated the same way that widows were according to the pastoral epistles
53:21
Or if they were young enough would seek some kind of marriage in the
53:26
Lord for those individuals but honestly, I've never Encountered that situation or read much of how that is dealt with but I think we have to we have to honor the the institution of marriage the way that the
53:41
Lord Jesus established it and to do so would would be to allow polygamy within the
53:48
Christian community would would be a Horrible thing along those lines Okay, do you mind if I ask you one follow -up question on the lines and that would be like, you know
53:58
In the Old Testament obviously with with the patriarchs and the Kings, you know, Abraham and David and so on There was a lot of that.
54:06
Do you think they were actually sinning or do you think it was something that God permitted at that time? But it just it you know, it was always inferior to his original plan
54:15
Yeah, you know, like I said, I see we I think we see a step down in we see it starting
54:21
Very early on and this and just as the kingship was a step down from having God ruling and in the sense of a theocracy
54:28
So to you you see this taking place with the patriarchs and then becoming much more common with the the kingly rulership and you see it bringing all sorts of Horrible consequences certainly within David's family.
54:43
You see a tremendous consequence coming in and in that context and so There is an accommodation to that that step step is stepping down, but we have to recognize
54:56
Because I mean if the scripture says God says to David, you know, have I not given you your wives?
55:02
And so there is a sense in which in light of the situation they were living in that's where God met them at that point
55:09
But the fact is that as Christians living in light of the the final revelation of God in Jesus Christ we have to live in light of that very high standard that he has given to us and That he has promised his spirit to be given to us to give us that ability to to live up to those standards and to use that as a testimony to To the rest of the world.
55:32
So yeah, I would agree with the second way that you express that Okay. All right. Thank you very much.
55:38
Okay. Thank you very much for calling. Have a good one. All right. Thank you. Bye -bye All right. Well Just in case anyone's wondering
55:47
Rich do we have multiple phone lines? We have multiple phone lines, don't we?
55:53
Yeah, we have we have more. Yeah. Okay. So when when Steven was on The phone still would have rung if someone had called eight seven seven seven five three three.
56:04
Yeah, okay All right. Just want to make sure because I could just see you know, someone say well, you know
56:10
I was just about to call and this other guy got on and you ended up talking about something else and that And it didn't work that way.
56:16
So well, hey, you know, I could also say there's not enough time in the course of the day We've always had the ability to take as much time.
56:23
Oh, yeah, if it's someone if if if William called right now you know what
56:29
I Ain't going anywhere a little hungry, but you know, you might hear my tummy grumbling, but other than that Not not not an issue.
56:38
Not a problem at all so anyway, I Just we need to start a list
56:46
The list of all the the folks who yeah, I'm calling I'm We're gonna expose that guy and and then it just doesn't really end up taking place
56:56
But anyway, well at least I took the time, you know to play his whole thing for him Maybe that's all he wanted was the notoriety, you know get get that Great reputation out there and things like that.
57:09
So, you know, who knows maybe that's what will happen So anyways, we tried we try to kept kept lines open and it and it didn't didn't happen and that's that's shame but as I said, please remember in the midst of all your time confusion which will come about by your dishonoring of time this this coming weekend by your your
57:34
Government mandated messing with your clocks Next Tuesday, we will not be here at the normal time at the altered time or anything else
57:44
We will be here at 4 p .m Mountain Standard time which doesn't change.
57:53
It's always the same time we're gonna be here at 4 o 'clock because we can't do it in the morning and We won't be able to be here on Thursday Because my cell phone they keep telling me to turn it off when
58:05
I get on the airplane And so I won't be able to do it that way. So we will try the week after but you have to watch the blog because I know
58:15
I can't do it on Tuesdays and Thursdays because that's what I'm debating over there and We have to do it in the evenings over there to be able to have it in the mornings over here
58:23
That's how that works. So watch the blog I will try to announce when we're gonna have the dividing lines from London pray for us
58:30
Thanks a lot for listening to my line today. God bless We need
59:31
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59:41
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59:47
That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks