October 30, 2008

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Schedule Change and Upcoming London Travel

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line first things first big announcement big announcement that the net that next Tuesday next Tuesday We have a time change for the dividing line. The dividing line will air at this time, which could use everybody Completely out of their brains because you all are changing your clocks this weekend.

So we are going to get all sorts of nasty emails. No, we're just doing it the regular Thursday time next Tuesday got it got to do that got something going on in the morning and You all could be completely lost because it's that time again.

And the funny thing is I was and I've mentioned it down the blog. I was in Mexico and they did it last weekend. Can you imagine the poor people that have to fly planes when people are changing clocks at different places.

So anyway, we we of course Here in in Arizona where we honor time we honor the creation of time will not be changing our clocks. We we just will allow time to continue on as it does and the Sun will move up and down the sky at the same time and We will just continue on our lives and the rest of you will be running around the house going.

I don't remember which button to push to set this one back Margaret, and it'll be a real mess. So Anyhow, that's first things first. So next Tuesday afternoon dividing line on Tuesday and no dividing line on Thursday because I haven't figured out a way to do a dividing line from 38 ,000 feet in the air that's because that's when I'm heading for London and So we're gonna try as best we can from London.

To do some dividing lines depending on what my schedules like. And who knows maybe we'll have all British dividing lines again. It's so popular with people. I recognize that. And we discuss so many requests.

It's really hard to say as a straight face. Anyway, so we'll do that now we are sitting here in on pins and needles folks. I mean we are so excited. We don't know which ends up here in the dividing line studios.

We are sitting here watching the the the phone banks eight seven seven seven five three three three four one that's a toll-free number and We're doing so because we're supposed to have someone calling in today and let me explain Why some of you may have seen my recent video where I went through?

William Albrecht's video on the issue of Eldership and the priesthood in the New Testament, and I did so because once again Jerusalem Jones Steve Ray had recommended it on his blog well lo and behold I Started this this afternoon logged into YouTube and someone had sent me a note and.

And I actually followed the link I rarely do but actually followed the link because the guy said this guy's could call in on the Thursday dividing line. So I follow the link and guess what it was it was to William Albrecht and lo and behold he had sent me that link.

Because he posted two responses to turrets and fam from the blog who put up a short article a couple days ago on the subject of Mary and some of the Pope had said and so I took the time to listen to watch the second part of these videos.

I don't want to offend William too much, but I Generally don't listen or watch his videos very much. I did find this one fascinating because there's a skull in the background. Yes, it's Halloween All Saints Day must be all things day, but anyway Let me play this for you and We'll just we'll just let you Understand for yourself, it's gonna be hard for me.

It's actually seven minutes long. I'm not gonna be able to stop. I'm keep myself from stopping this but still We'll we'll listen to what William has say here because he well he explains. He's gonna call in today and set us all straight and demonstrate that that he knows what he's talking about so here's here's William.

Albrecht we're gonna have to stop and I'm gonna note real quick That I'm once more this blogger is not James White it is a person that James White promotes on Alpha Omega Ministries and It's quite funny that James White would allow such a scholarship to be put in his own website, but what?

This passage I'm gonna examine is one such passage that we were told That Jesus is basically condemning adoration. Or veneration towards Mary all right, so the Bible get your Bibles up. Mark chapter 3.

33 to 35. Mark 3 to 33. 33 to 35. Excuse me. And he answered them saying who is my mother or my brother or my brethren. Excuse me. And he looked around about it on them. Which which it said about him and said behold my mother and my brethren.

For so whosoever shall to the will of God the same is my brother and my sister and my mother. Well we must ask A omen Alpha Omega Ministries, or just ask James white to clarify. We're in the Greek. Maybe you know James you're a Greek expert a I've been teaching Greek for like what 20 years 30 years.

I mean, I wasn't even born since you've been teaching Greek for so long. You're like the pro in it, right. Or maybe we can ask a James to um exegete the Aramaic right. I mean, maybe James has a secret Aramaic copy or the Latin or the Spanish or I mean, where can we exegete this passage and find out that Christ is castigating someone due to the radiation of Mary.

I Mean in what language can we figure that out? And or is it only in the James White again twisting of scripture type of language that we can find such an interpretation.

Like I said, I wasn't gonna get through the whole thing without stopping it and making a commentary of course. Mm-hmm. I don't have access to any Aramaic that I leave that to Rome to come up with all that.

That are Dave hunt one or two. They they're the other ones that seem to come up with with Aramaic if you look back at the blog article that That William is pretending to respond to Turretin fan Had quoted both Matthew 12 42 50 and Mark chapter 3 verses 33 through 35.

And then he had said it is almost as though Jesus was concerned lest some might foolishly fall in the trap of worshiping his blood relatives. Indeed here is Jesus own condemnation of the error of adoration and veneration of Jesus mother.

They do not hold a special place in the kingdom of God But are like all those who do the will of God. Yet Catholicism as can be seen from this event continues to elevate Mary Improperly to the status of in effect a goddess to whom prayers are offered.

And then he goes on to talk about Benedict the 16th. You know it is reported that quote in a gesture of filial love the Pope then offered the Madonna a golden rose and quote and so obviously. If William took the time to read such works as Eric Stenson's work on on Mary Or other serious works on the subject than he would know that.

This text is one of the classical texts that comes up in almost any debate on the subject of the veneration of Mary. Because it demonstrates that this is not something that is taught in the New Testament.

There is no evidence of this in the New Testament and here you have a perfect opportunity for Jesus to Launch into a lengthy diatribe and discussion of how we should all venerate Mary. And how he should just drop what he's doing right there and listen to what Mary has to say.

What does he do? He does not say that at all. He says who is my mother and who are my brethren and he stretched forth his hand toward his Disciples and said behold my mother and my brethren for whosoever shall do the will of my father.

Which is in heaven the same as my brother and sister and mother. The point is the the text simply does not Give rise to the kind of exaltation of Mary that has taken place in the many centuries that have passed since these words were Originally written.

And the problem with William, and I've said this many times I've tried to explain it to him in my videos in response to him but he is clearly not able to understand this part is that he is trapped in the anachronism of modern Rome Catholicism.

He reads back into church history the modern definitions that Rome offers as if these have always been What people have believed. I've documented this in his own videos where he just makes this direct statement that is what always believe.

Everyone's always leave us. Well. He's wrong, and he doesn't seem to recognize That it is incumbent upon him to demonstrate Something more than just simply throwing out statements and saying well, that's what the church teaches so that's just all the way.

It's been so you're wrong. No you have to go back into history and in this instance We're looking at the New Testament. And you have to be able to set aside all those developments that came Long long after this period of time and simply ask the question.

Is this an apostolic teaching remember? We just finished the Madrid debate here on the dividing line and what did what did Patrick finish his talk? But by saying that these were apostolic traditions. These are things the apostles taught.

Okay, where? Document it show us. Uh here we have apostolic teaching here. We have the teaching uh found in the gospels themselves relating to us the teachings of Jesus Christ. Where in this do you find this elevation of Mary as we see in modern Roman Catholicism?

Well, you do not and here's a perfect opportunity for Jesus to have Expanded all these things and said all these things and what does he do? He looks at his disciples. You want to be my mother my brother my sister you want to be part of my family.

It's in doing the will of God. That you are in my family it is not the filial relationships the physical relationships that were those of the incarnate one, uh that brought these things about and so. Just providing mockery.

Uh is not argumentation. William is very good at this, but that's all he's good at he he you know. When he says well exegete this text, okay. Well, uh, there's been plenty of people who've done that. There's been plenty who have demonstrated that this text says exactly what we say.

It says it's there's no no. Nothing mysterious about the original languages or anything else. But just simply to to mock, uh is not to argue. Generally the one um, if you mock before you argue that means you have no argument.

Uh, generally if you have argued and demonstrated a position is utterly irrational and then a person Continues to hold that irrational position. Well, then maybe mockery is fitting at that point. Uh, but uh, you you get them mixed up and backwards when uh, when you do something like this it must be that.

It's a new type of language.

Anyway, I guess i'll wait a few years or so. But anyway, this is an open challenge to debate anyone. I don't care who. Busy with your schedule. Fine. I'll call into the dl dividing line. I just want to know.

I just want to know a few things mainly one thing.

Just where does the church say that we worship mary or that we where does the church say that we worship mary now? Uh, it wasn't that long ago. I don't think. That we went through this entire subject very carefully here on the dividing line when we went through the veneration of Saints and angels debate we played an entire opening statement where I went through.

Issues relating to the hebrew term avad and its translation the greek septuagint. Uh with various terms latruo and duluo. And we talked about the nature of worship and we talked about the fact that the entire concept of the uh.

Idea that well mary gets hyper veneration see and and dulia. You know that that can be given to saints and angels, but and alatria that's only to god and then there's this this middle. Hyper veneration hyper dulia, I guess that uh,.

Uh that uh that mary gets and and we just basically demonstrated that none of this has any biblical foundation whatsoever. It's not there and if you derive your faith from the living words of scripture.

And it's not there. That means it cannot be binding upon you what rome does it goes backwards. It's the anachronism of tradition. And you come up with your beliefs and then you go back to the text of scripture and uh, you find some way of uh, of getting it between these two cracks here and that those two cracks over there and and trying to jimmy it in this this place or that place and.

Uh, you just give up on the idea of actually deriving any of this from the text of scripture instead. What you do is you say? Well, it doesn't contradict the text of scripture and uh, that's the best that you can possibly come up with as um a person who does not practice solo scriptura and.

So we've defined these things and we've basically said, you know, you know remember when when madrid brought up. Well, where is the church ever said that we worship? Well, we recognize that the roman catholic church makes a distinction the whole point of our argument from the beginning from.

And I can trace this back to the time of the reformation and you could actually trace it back even earlier than that on other in other contexts. The point is that the distinction is a distinction without a difference.

It has no meaning. It's a it's a word game. It is it is specifically a word game meant to get you around the real issue. And that is that you are giving uh veneration. And it is religious veneration. Therefore it is worship.

I have used the analogy many times if moses had found. Uh, if someone had been found in the in the camp of israel, uh bowing down before a statue. Of an ancestor and had been brought before moses. And had said well.

They had said I wasn't moses. Come on. I wasn't worshiping the statue. I was venerating the statue. Do you really think that that? Argumentation would have worked. Do you think moses off? Of course you you were serving the statue.

Um, you were not worshiping. Well, then everything's okay. Go go ahead. Go back to it. Enjoy burn. Burn the candles and bow down and mutter the prayers and do everything you want because now we understand.

You weren't worshiping the statue. You were just venerating the statue. Well, i'm, sorry, where do you get that? How do you derive that especially since that one that one hebrew word avad. Is rendered by both latruo and diluo.

When when paul says in galatians. Speaking of the time before the galatians became believers. That they serve those which by nature are not gods. Do you really think he was distinguishing between they were just serving them but not worshiping them?

I mean this this kind of absurdity. Is what results when you allow sola scriptura to be denied. And you allow rome to start defining.

These types of things promote her worship. I mean, this is a whole argument in this article. The article and alpha ming ministries is promoting the fact that capitalists worship me. And I do plan to call the dln james.

Maybe maybe leave one line open. You'll be thirsty call him.

Hey, hey rich, uh, could we could we check uh is one line open? Yeah, there's one. Do we got any others? That's that's at least two. Yeah. In fact, I don't I don't see any at all. That is three. There's there's three that are open right now.

So 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. I keep looking over there making sure you're keeping an eye on it, too. All right, we've got two sets of eyes here. So we we don't want to miss williams call uh, because it'd be very important because he just said he's he's calling in so.

Um, I want to know where the church says that we worship her in any official dog Dogmatic statement or any any statement of any early father, you know. Um, and I'd like to know where her veneration is being outright condemned in this passage.

That's all I want to know. Um anyone give it a shot. Moving on quoting more of a omen Benedict the 16th did not even omit to provide a sacrifice to this de facto goddess. It is reported that in a gesture fill your love the pope then offered the madonna a golden rose.

One is reminded immediately of the similar offerings presented by the philistines the ark of the covenant In the old testament and i'm laughing because this person's obviously attempting to um Humiliate catholics, I guess particularly given catholicism's claim or at least a claim of her apologists that mary is the ark of the new covenant.

Anyhow. Wow. Benedict must have been a heretic, right? Can you put a rose before the bridge? Well.

Benedict must have been a heretic, right? Well, let me see, um from uh from the position of um from the position. Hmm, would benedict be a heretic? Oh, yeah. You know, he claims to be the vicar of christ.

Um and the infallible head of the church. Yeah, I I you know, it's fairly common For believing protestants to think that benedict is just a little bit off just just just tad bit. And we've done in debates for years and years demonstrating that that's um I don't know.

It's just a little bit humorous to me that That a catholic would find it unusual that we would think that the pope is just a tad bit. Uh off on theology. It might be a little heretical. Just just just tad.

Just just a little bit off center there. Mary offering a sacrifice as if mary is a pagan goddess, right? No way at all, of course. The analogy fails unless your brain is made up of scrambled eggs that is Sacrifices scrambled what?

I didn't even understand that. What. That wasn't. Scrambled eggs. What was it? Was it scrambled eggs? I couldn't. I couldn't even understand.

Under the normality we're very different in the context of people worshiping a goddess. In the pagan sense or of any sense you want to say? Therefore unless you are of a silly persuasion Because it is silly that sola fide and sola scriptura are biblical.

Then only then could this analogy make sense to you. At what you know.

At least he got that one. Because what he just admitted is if you just go with the bible Then your analogy would make sense and that's the whole point you see we judge roman catholic piety and practice by the revealed word of god.

And that's why turretin fan comes to the conclusions that he does. See turretin fan is is like one of those old puritan guys, you know. He doesn't really mince his words and he he pretty much writes like the puritans did or like well like francis turretin did that probably is where the name comes from comes from and very straightforward, uh in what he says and uh, so he he speaks and judges based upon What the word of god says and not based upon what someone 1200 years later? Bought the word of god said based upon all sorts of traditions that had accrued over time.

Etc. Etc. Etc. So yeah, he got that one, right? And if you if you actually believe in Sola scriptura, you believe the scriptures are the sufficient Revelation of the word of god that they are god-breathed and they're the final court of authority.

Yeah there we we we do agree. We got something we can agree on. That's a that's a good thing. Never mind.

Moving on quoting a omen more. Finally, we should note that benedict is reported not to have left jesus entirely out. The secret of pompeii is the rosary. But in fact sadly it is an extra he mentions jesus between those lines.

Um, but in fact sadly it is an extra scriptural innovation. This is ailment referring to the rosary. Unknown to the apostles and unpracticed for centuries and centuries following christ's ascension. The early church fathers didn't say the rosary and neither should you.

There's a tradition of men not a god. Well.

My commentary now, this is more silliness for mailman, but now listen carefully here because you see. Just go online. And google the rosary read roman catholic sites about the subject of the rosary. They'll tell you when it started.

The standard story the story even told by popes is that it comes from the 12th century. Now some have said well, it's it's a little early in that 9th century. Irish prayers. Well, all this stuff. Is evolutionary in its character?

Nothing just pops up overnight. And so you can try to find a little something here a little something there. But even popes have said that mary gave this and that she did so in the 12th century. Okay, uh, you'll find that on all sorts of roman catholic websites.

You don't have to go to some quote unquote anti-catholic website. Just go to catholic websites and they'll tell you that. So let's. Let's listen to this. Uh.

Incredible rebuttal. Inspect less from this individual who has no grasp of this misuse to the biblical text. Even erroneously making comments that not even james would have said divisions among within ailment.

Who knows we're told that jesus wasn't left entirely out of this prayer. Um hinting that he was barely mentioned, right? I mean that is the context of what this blogger is saying. Well, in fact the complete form of the prayer in english translated.

And i've read it all Translated. We have the words God lord christ holy spirit and the gospel of christ used over. And over and over and over as the main focus of this papal commentary. It is a sad distortion when one doesn't even research the facts and simply wants to twist the truth out of context.

Now, of course, uh william does claim all the time to have this tremendous capacity to Read the hearts and minds of others as to what their motivations are and he can do so remotely. It's it's an amazing skill.

Just just fantastic. Never met anyone. Uh who has that kind of that kind of power and ability? Uh, but anyway, uh this this is what he does here and so when you have a prayer focused upon mary. Almost anything that i've read from rome will talk about jesus in the spirit and things like that.

The point is what is its heart? What is its focus? What is it trying to get people to do when you teach people that they are to fear? Jesus because he is judge and need to go to mary as the mediator because she's merciful.

Don't tell me you're leading people to jesus. Okay? That's a false jesus a false gospel and it means you don't even begin to understand the gospel itself now we've we've Established this kind of stuff over and over again in the past um, I you know we're repeating ourselves, but anyway, that's just one comment in regards to.

William's response here. We're told the rosary leads people away from christ and it's anti-scriptural. This coming from a person that doesn't realize that the prayers are simply meant to lead towards christ.

And this coming from a person that believes in doctrines that are probably newer than when his family line began.

This practice was not in usage. I have no idea. What doctrines he thinks are newer than when his family line began? Uh who who knows? I mean it again. You didn't just throw this stuff out there and and uh, and hope something sticks.

Maybe it's supposed to sound good. Anyways, uh, we still we still got open lines 877 -753 -3341. We still still we're making sure that that uh, you know, as william had said he want us to open the line for him and uh, so we're just.

That sounds that sounds like a good solid signal. Yep. That's good. So 877 -753 -3341.

That's toll free number you might want to say it's lower eight.

Seven five three. I do say it way too fast. And the only reason is because I have it memorized but I am reading it. It's terrible. It's right there. It's right, you know, I mentioned when I was down in mexico.

I was I was like, oh no. Am I gonna have to say the number? Will I remember it? Will I look like an idiot because I can't Remember a number. I've said how many how many thousands of times I said that now who knows.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four. One which spells nothing. I hate when you find that on a website where people spell it out. It's not on my cell phone anymore, I can't figure that out.

For a lot of your money I gotta sit there and go man. Do I have an old rotary phone around here someplace I can find figure out what that is. Eight seven seven three three three four one. Centuries and centuries.

Till after christ ascended we are told okay. I've heard a good episode. This isn't remember what this blogger says. This practice was not in usage for centuries and centuries till after christ ascended.

The early fathers had no usage of a rosary. We're also told well. Any person well-versed in church history would not make such a silly comment. Silly fully being aware that a type of rosary was around and prevalent in the desert fathers.

Whoa type of rosary.

Which rosary are we talking about? What do you mean type of rosary? Uh monks had lots of prayers. But are you actually claiming that all those roman catholic sites? I mean just just go the catholic. How about the catholic encyclopedia?

Is the catholic encyclopedia good enough? I think the catholic encyclopedia is probably uh good enough uh specifically tells us uh that uh Saint dominic earnestly besought the help of our lady was instructed by her so tradition asserts To preach the rosary among the people as an antidote to heresy and sin.

From that time forward this manner of prayer was most wonderfully published abroad and developed by saint dominic who Different supreme pontiffs have in various past ages their apostolic letters declared to be the institutor and author of the same devotion.

Were the popes right and william were the popes wrong. And williams, right? Is that is that we're getting here? I mean that you know, you never know uh, the popes didn't have access to the web, so it's it's a possibility I suppose but uh.

Something tells me that's probably what this blogger a aka turretin fan was referring to um. Maybe if we just like take a break during the break. Because william's so busy taking down notes on all this maybe during the break William will give us a call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll be right back.

It's not an easy way. It's a journey to the sun. Day by day.

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Polygamy, Marriage, and the Christian Standard

I get some tim janice bumper music going here pretty soon. And welcome back to the dividing line. Uh as you notice between the commercials there we we kept monitoring things very very carefully very very professionally, uh,.

We've got to got to keep an eye on this equipment. Make sure that when that phone call comes in we're ready to go. And we're right out of time here. We only got you know, 20. Five minutes left 25 minutes left.

I was just thinking of the old days remember craig ray. Oh, i've been back at khep and he would call in with five minutes to go on the show.

Yeah, that's that's that was always a good way to do it. Uh, go it makes those last five minutes go real real fast. Well, we're almost done here. We're at uh, six minutes and 12 seconds of uh, seven minutes and 10.

So we're we're almost done with uh with williams. Um in depth response to uh to turret and fan of the church in the early centuries a man, oh by the way, uh I was looking at uh some information. And uh, uh, I have a feeling what he's referring to is the fact that a lot of religions Uh that have that do the repetitive prayer thing that jesus condemned.

A lot of religions that do that when you've got to do repetitive prayers. You got to do the same prayer over and over again. You normally find a way to you know, keep count. Uh, do you know the muslims have things look very much like rosary beads?

Oh, yeah, they do. Uh, almost every religion has something like that and uh, there were uh, for example that same article on uh, newadvent .org uh talks about um. Similarly beside the mummy of a christian ascetic thaius.

Of the fourth century recently disinterred at antoine, uh antinui in egypt was found a sort of cribbage board with holes. Which has generally been thought to be an apparatus for counting prayers. Uh of which palladius and other ancient authorities left us an account.

So counting prayers is nothing new. The question is to whom? Were they addressed and what did they say? And of course turretin fan was talking about the rosary. He wasn't talking about counting prayers or anything like that.

Uh, so to just throw something like that out as if somehow that's a meaningful response again is one of the main problems. With william now again people are going. Well, why would you pick on this poor guy?

Well. Um because steve ray. Uh jerusalem jones himself the man who appears on catholic answers live and answers theological historical and biblical questions. A man who has written a running commentary on the gospel of john published by ignatius press recommends that we listen to william albrecht and so we are.

Because jerusalem jones told us to and because william himself said he was he was calling in and um. To the the dividing line a tradition.

That is exactly what sola scriptura is not the devotion that is directed towards god and the rosary. So i'll end with this one simple challenge. James seems to have taken my videos to his reputation liking lately.

Well, let's take this a bit further james.

I think what he said was james has taken my videos to his Refutation liking lately. I think that's what that was uh, and what he's referring to is I Uh refuted corrected demonstrated that he was wrong in his assertions about the priesthood and presbyteros and Episcopos and that he had used an artificial Limitation of the new testament text in limiting things only to the pastoral epistles.

He was ignoring Peter the general epistles and revelation he was ignoring the book of acts Which sheds much more light and totally destroys his theories. He had his he even confused the terms himself as to how many times they appeared.

Mix them up. And then wrote me an email talking about all my straw man argumentation. In my video, uh, which of course he hasn't documented any of that either uh, so. Uh, that's that's the background of that i'm going to call you call your show on thursday.

And we have a little short little conversation. In our conversation you can tell me where the church worships mary or says in any official document that we should worship her. Let me know let me know james.

I'm really eager to call him. And I really find your article attempting to um, refute my video series in the priesthood article in the priesthood interesting. I would hope so. Hopefully by t by tuesday, maybe wednesday.