BREAKING: SBC Professor Threatened and Fired for Publishing Orthodox Views on Homosexuality

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter Podcast

Welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. My name is John Harris and I have with me today Robert Oscar Lopez. Who? Robert are you. Are you still a professor technically at Southwestern or did that end?

Well, I think the letter that I received terminated me as of the end of the year, but maybe interceding events. Earlier because it looks like I'm locked out of my email and all of my accounts there.

So, okay. It sounds like you're not and I'm you're not employed there. You're gonna drop a Final paycheck and then that's it. Former professor at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Texas and and Who's your son since he's on the camera there?

Yeah. Yeah, we were talking for a minute before starting to record and as soon as I press record your son ran and Dane there. So it's cute though. I'm glad that he's keeping you company. I want to talk about what's going on at Southwestern in regards to your situation a little bit and I have listened now to two recordings of meetings.

That frankly, they're shocking. There's transcripts available and you can go to the info section on this video. You can find the recordings. You can find the transcripts and more importantly you can find an article that we've put together the enemies within the church that Describes this whole situation and interprets it for you complete with sections from the transcripts, but People don't know what I'm talking about yet, but we're gonna get into that a little bit so the long and short of it from what I can understand is That it is like my 32nd like Summation you for a long time have been sharing your testimony how God saved you out of a homosexual lifestyle.

You don't believe there's an innate fixed orientation you you believe that people can change and you've spread that message and You've been tapped many times by conservative publications, especially to talk on this issue and you kept doing it you kept writing about it and Southwestern After the new administration took over said we can't have this please, you know, stop you need to get approval.

You tried to work with them and I heard that very clearly in the meetings and you eventually came to the conviction. I cannot Be barred from sharing my testimony and what Christ has done in my life. And this is an important issue and and you were told that you are a bad guy at the ERLC and that's a problem.

You can't be saying the things that you're saying at Southwestern while supposedly I guess representing them as a school. If if you're running into conflict with the ERLC on your positions here through the articles you've written on homosexuality you've been told to.

Stop making comments on Facebook, I guess or there are troubling comments that you were called in the office for which I'd like to hear. What those were? It sounds like they tried to censor you and then when they figured they couldn't they fired you and it seems that simple and the Statement that was put out by Stinson I think his name is at Southwestern about this does not add up.

It seems honestly and I hate to say this about someone who's a professing believer, but it's a lie. It is an outright lie when I when I look at these transcripts and I hear these recordings and I see these emails.

What they're saying about you is absolutely untrue and it is provable and you can go to the links in this info section to to show that so Robert I'm a little upset about this and you seem like you're in a better spirit than me.

And I don't know why that is. Maybe you just you're tired and you're done with it, but I'd like to hear from you. You know what what's going on is my assessment accurate?

The Seminary Response and the Fight Over LGBT Speech

Well, you know, there's a part of me that just wants to be very careful. So I'll I think you are right but I would say that they couched everything very carefully so that They try to give themselves wiggle room.

So wasn't it didn't look like they were really censoring me. They were just asking me to run things by The media communications office and then upon My questions and after many meetings it became clear that they wanted to say you can say certain things and you can't say other things.

And the items that came under controversy that is to say the public statements and public writings that were subject to their Objections in which they tried to steer me away from were all things that dealt with the LGBT issue.

So, I think the official story that came from Southwestern which was that homosexuality had nothing to do with my dismissal. I Just don't know how you can twist around The the record in terms of what they said at the meetings what they gave me in writing what they told me in person.

It does seem to be that they wanted me to get away from my testimony they wanted me to get away from this subject matter and when I Told them at a certain point that God had called me to my work and I could not Abandon that for the sake of hanging on to my job.

Yes, they did basically ask me to resign and then when I wouldn't resign they Terminated me and now they're claiming that the termination was because of a change in programming needs in the college and That seems not to add up because usually if you have a change in curriculum.

Those things are known to people with a lot more lead time than I was given. The only time that I heard that my position was eliminated because of program needs was when on November 29th, you know a week ago.

Which is after classes had already ended and you know, my job is over in a month basically at Christmastime. So I think It is very troubling. What happened and I think one of the reasons why I'm in better spirits than you is because I lived through at least I would say nine months of this intense experience of working under people who say one thing and they're doing another and they live in behind a veil of obscurity and They not just in my case, but in the way that they run The seminary they do seem to they rule with an iron fist.

You know The first thing that Adam Greenway did when he came in was he fired 25 26 professors in one day? So that created an entirely different climate on campus relative to what I had experienced prior to his coming to Southwestern people were all scared of their jobs.

And so there was a general feeling of distrust and uneasiness and They certainly did not work to tamp that down they were calling people in in a lot of these fashions where I don't know if you've got a sense of that when you Look at the record of the emails and the audio tapes of the meetings.

But they would often call you into meetings and you didn't know who was going to be in the room. You didn't know what it was about. They wouldn't set up meetings at a time that you knew people usually got fired at.

So they'll say you have to come on Thursday at 4 p .m. And you know, that's what people usually get fired so that it's just a climate of fear and intimidation and It I think ultimately. What is scary is?

That these are tactics that are worse than what I saw in secular liberal academia.

Fear, Intimidation, and the ERLC Conflict of Interest

Yeah, it seemed like I was listening to something that would have come from HR department at a secular job or secular academic, yeah.

Here's the expectation of the administration. They don't want that attention coming here, but it's something that Probably not going to want that kind of attention, that kind of involvement from you. I would not want to see a situation where You force them to fire you.

I happen to be around some folks from the ERLC. Where your reputation is not good there with those folks. So now there's a growing concern of mine in terms of a failure to relate constructively to Another major entity of the SPC when you work at Southwestern Seminary.

You're not an independent actor. Everything that you do Represents this school in one way or another. There are multiple factors that go into What might be acceptable or unacceptable and I'd like to know what that rubric is.

Well, there's not. I didn't say there was a rubric. Well, there are multiple factors that we would consider in who the audience is the venue what's being said? How is it being said? If it is going to be Received poorly by the entity the honest truth.

You know, what are we? Okay, I'm. There are ways to say things. There are ways to do it. It's just are you just putting out the truth unvarnished truth everywhere you go or.

Ways to have conversations or to make any decision. I'm prepared to know I'm asking you.

You know ought to be at a man of integrity. To make your own decision. I've made my decision.

I've made my decision and you know what? I resent you to implying that I don't have integrity. I'm.

I'm saying it.

Media Requests, Preapproval, and the Lack of a Clear Policy

I'm the 19th. You met with Dean Stinson and you brought two pastors with you and he gives you a hard time for that in the audio file that I listened to which I thought was interesting because you mentioned in the same transcript that you had Requested information about the meeting like who was gonna be there what it was about and he didn't respond to you.

And so there's no specifics. You get to the meeting and it's like a cat-and-mouse game for the next hour in which he does Not give you any. Not even verbal let alone written Instructions. No rubric as far as how you could comply with whatever this supposed policy is.

It doesn't sound like there's any policy. So how do you know? I mean it is a Facebook post. That's personal. Outside, you know, does that have to be approved by the the school? I mean there are no specifics and that's one of the things that concern me about this.

I mean was there anything other than I mean Just a verbal. You need to get approval from us with all of your communication.

Yeah, well, one of the hard things is I don't really have access to all of the other faculties Personnel files with their experiences, obviously. So I he they claim that they put the same rules on everyone.

So I would have no way of really confirming that but it does not seem to me likely that everybody Was asked to submit the level of Scrutiny to their work as I was being asked to what he drew a distinction in that meeting between academic work.

Which he said did not need to be pre-approved. And other kinds of commentary that did need to be pre-approved. Now the thing about it is that when I do work on LGBT on sexuality a lot of that is peer-reviewed academic work, but he's not counting it that way so.

The their definitions are slippery there are not clear guidelines and and the end result when you add it all up is That there are certain subject areas that they are allowed carte blanche to regulate and one of those would be LGBT because they just don't Count that as academic work.

Even though that's an area of major theological discussion and a seminary needs to talk about it. That's one of the things that I try to bring up in that meeting. When I brought the two pastors is that you know.

Those pastors can attest to how much work I do in the ministries in churches. The issue of LGBT is ripping apart the churches. Absolutely. It's it's tearing apart the pastoral landscape and but that's not counted as serious intellectual work as if I were, you know writing a Biography, let's say of Martin Luther that would count as more academic and so I would have more freedom to write about that.

But on something like LGBT, it's so heavily Scrutinized now. The other thing is at one point we asked her for a rubric. He did not want to give us a rubric as to what would be the like the reasons that I would be told that I shouldn't publish something or I should publish it and I think.

What bothered me about that was the fact that I hadn't really written anything that went against the Baptist faith and message. Or that was against the gospel. I mean nothing at all it all. So it was not clear to me why?

You know some of the things were objectionable and. And especially given all of the things that the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission is doing I mean they're having conferences on sex abuse. I was writing a lot on sex abuse but I was writing on same-sex sex abuse and sex abuse that happens in the gay community and for some reason that is.

Every time I wrote anything on that that raised a lot of red flags.

Double Standards, Sexual Abuse, and the Page Patterson Lawsuit

Yeah, it's interesting to me the the double standard here I mean does Malcolm Yarnel need to go to the Administration every time he puts a tweet out there on social justice or something because he puts a lot of tweets out there I mean or is it just you that when you write something that has to do with this specific issue you have to get that approved and It it sounds like there's no actual policy.

There's they don't actually tell you what kinds of communication What what mediums and then as far as the content they don't really give you any instructions other than you just need to abide by Our moving standard that we don't define.

I mean that's frustrating.

Well, yeah what would happen is they would be building up a track record of you being a problem employee because They would give you a one rule and then they would call you in as if you violated The rule that they had given you but that wasn't the rule that they gave you.

So the perfect example is when I met with them in June, I met with the provost in June. What they said was that we had to pass all of our media requests to Colby Adams because of the page Patterson lawsuit.

That was underway on the seminary now. From what I understood nothing that I did had anything to do with the page Patterson lawsuit. But they said well, it doesn't matter. You still have to submit any media requests.

That means if somebody contacts you and says I'm a reporter and I want to interview you. That's what I understand media requests right? So I tried to go along with that. They took objection because at one point somebody contacted me from the Christian Union and I answered to the reporter and I copied Colby Adams so that the reporter and the chief of staff at Southwestern saw each other's names on it.

They said that was inappropriate because that puts too much pressure on the chief of staff. So they said instead you should do it in separate emails. I was like, okay, whatever. I'll do that. But then the next thing that happened was I submitted an essay to be published at American thinker and So I sent that to the editor at American thinker.

I waited for him to get back and then in a separate email I emailed the chief of staff and they said that that was wrong because I needed to then submit that essay that idea To the chief of staff before I sent it to an editor and that's the point where I said Nowhere at any point.

Did you tell me that everything that I said including my testimony was subject to their prior Approval and that was just standard that was so expansive. And I think the reason why there was no written standard is because I don't think that most Institutions of higher learning would want to be caught with that as a written policy.

It would probably run them a foul of accreditation guidelines.

Academic Freedom, Accreditation, and Prior Approval

That's what it sounds like to me and I mean I've been through in many academic institutions. And I don't recall ever hearing anything remotely close to this kind of Policy, which is really a non policy where you have to get everything approved.

I mean professors typically do interviews and and have their own blogs that get sometimes populated on other websites and. You're in a unique case in my experience at least and and I know you've been around the block a little bit.

Have you ever had trouble like this before?

Well at Cal State Northridge there were gestures or innuendos. But generally no, I mean you couldn't have. You would never be called in by the provost or by a dean at Cal State Northridge and told. That you have to have your commentary pre-screened by an administrator.

That's I would have never seen that this is the first place where that was even Suggested let alone enforced. You know, and that's the thing is that this wasn't forced. I mean, I mean it was. I was called in for meeting after meeting and then, you know.

Finally that there was one meeting where I just said I can't agree to meet with you because you haven't addressed any of the problems I've raised with the prior meetings about nothing being in writing.

None of this has to do with my job description of teaching research or service that has nothing to do with his responsibilities as a provost. His demeanor very often was aggressive and threatening and yeah, you know.

Yeah, and so it you know. So and then at that point then they get you for not being willing to come into a meeting. After I had already gone to seven meetings so it. It's a really a runaround game. I don't know I can't know what their motives are but it seems to me that the most plausible explanation is that they were looking for a reason to run certain people off and I was on the top of that list.

That he brought up the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, so yeah three times I was on his.

Three times you saw that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I listened the whole thing. He brought up the ERLC by name I think twice and by right he referenced it another time. So there are three times that he referenced them and it was right out of the gate.

He's saying to you that well, we can't have someone who's making waves with the ERLC that creates a problem here. I'm like what?

Well, and it's it's I see it as somewhat of a conflict of interest because his relationship to me is. His relationship was that he was a provost and I was a professor. So it was not the case that. You know, he should be advancing the interests of his role as a research fellow at the ERLC.

He is a research fellow at the ERLC. But that should not be the what he's calling me in and using his position as a provost. For a provost is supposed to be.

Overseeing academics. Yeah. Well Robert. I I just want you to know I respect you I know I've been praying for you and I'm sure many others are gonna be praying for you now is I'm sure you're gonna be looking for work in the months ahead and There's a lot of men Teaching at these seminaries and I and I I know some of them personally who are in similar situations but they want to keep their jobs and and you were bold enough and brave enough to Take a stand here and I just want to thank you.

I really appreciate that. I know it honors the Lord. You know your testimony is powerful. We don't we don't hear the kinds of things coming from Revoice or living out or the ERLC that we should in regards to the issue of LGBT Q and you I think have The life-giving soul-changing message of the gospel that and the example because you were saved out of this.

And you can show people in that community in a gentle loving way What the love of Christ can do for them and not just save their souls from eternal separation from God which is of course the main thing, but also from a lifestyle of death and so I just want you to you to know I appreciate you and and I hope you don't stop putting that message out there that Christ can change lives and and Well, you know what the ERLC says.

God’s Call, the Jonah Warning, and Critique of SBC Culture

It's interesting because I.

Tried to get away from it earlier this year. I pulled out of conferences and I I Didn't want it because I've been at this for a while and this just keeps on happening over and over again. And you know, I wanted to get away from it.

I just think that God if he calls you to something You have to go where he calls you because every time I tried to get away from it You know, I would be pulled back in and it's almost it's almost God's grace.

By saying like look if you had completely cut ties to all these people in all these ministries. So I'd asked for your help and just decided that you were gonna write peer-reviewed articles about church history, you know, or about You know John Locke.

For the rest of your time studying that I probably would have felt an emptiness inside or at least I think God would have Done the Jonah punishment.

You know your God more than men that's great.

Yeah, well, I think also, you know, I came from California. And I did come from California thinking that God had brought me here. And I just don't think that God brought me here to shrink in fear from Southern Baptists and I Wish that more people in the Southern Baptist Convention would break with this culture.

I don't even think it always has to do with right and left liberal or conservative. I think there's just a culture of going along to get along the old boys network. It's a corrupt culture. That keeps everybody in line.

And and people really distort the gospel. They think that discretion is a biblical value. They think that secrecy is a biblical value. They think that Popularity or ingratiation with the people at the top is a biblical value.

These are not biblical values. John. No at all. I mean, these are values that go contrary to the light and the salt that we're supposed to bring to the world with the gospel. So I hope that maybe if there's one or two people out there who could see my story and just think to themselves.

You know, you don't have to do this. You don't have to report to your cave in a Southern Baptist institution and keep your head down year after year. Clinging to something that ultimately is not really what God intended for you.

Robert I want to ask you one final question. I Have heard that when Paige Patterson Was taken out for lack of a better term and Greenway was put in the faculty or at least most of them had to sign NDAs and And You someone told me did not sign an NDA and you may I don't know if you're the only one or one of the few.

Your resolution though to the Southern Baptist Convention was specifically on NDAs. Yes I just wanted you to comment for a moment on that because I'm wondering if that also plays into this at all.

Non-Disclosure Agreements, Whistleblowers, and Romans 13

Well, I it is a very good possibility that that was the beginning of the end. I Submitted a resolution that wasn't really on LGBT necessarily it was on abuse sex abuse, but also other kinds of misconduct and that the resolution was on whistleblowers and trying to clean up the culture of corruption in the SPC so that informants can come forward and bring problems to the public without four different things that I mentioned one of which was the Eleventh Commandment one of which was Retaliation one of which were gentlemen's agreements, which I think are also very problematic and then the non-disclosure agreements.

And I didn't mention that in there that resolution got killed and I was taken out to lunch By the provost and it was clear that he was not happy with the fact that I had submitted that Resolution so that may have started the bad blood because that was back in May.

I don't know how many people sign on disclosure agreements because obviously. One of the conditions is that they can't tell you, right? I did not sign one and I obviously paid a huge price because I am being cut off with no pay, you know, I'm virtually no notice.

Whatsoever, but I do feel that God gave me that freedom. So I it would be a waste for me to stay quiet about things given the fact that I didn't sign one of those. I think non-disclosure agreements are a huge part of the sex abuse crisis.

They're a huge part of a lot of the abuse and misconduct in the Southern Baptist Convention and we should not have them. They are totally contrary to Christian faith. No Christian organization should have people sign those because you're using the unbelieving world's legal institutions.

To threaten and intimidate Christian brothers and sisters and I know of people not just at Southwestern but other places who are good Christians who signed those things because they were worried about their family and putting food on the table or they had children with health insurance needs that were unique and quite onerous and so they had to sign those and it's just so wrong because They're they're very conflicted the people.

I know who do sign them. They they feel that they need to show integrity to the fact that they signed those agreements. But those agreements are really inappropriate in the first place. And so it opens up that question.

When we read Romans 13 when we read first Peter. You know when we read a lot of those passages in the Bible that talk about obeying the existing Authorities does that mean that we should obey everyone who happens to be in a position of authority even someone who?

Got there through ill-begotten means or who is not a good leader, you know. So that's a question that we all have to wrestle with because there are other parts of the Bible to tell us that we have. To be wary of wolves and sheep's clothing.

We have to protect the flock from the wolves. We shouldn't be hirelings so. It's a tough question, but I do think that that's a big part of where we're at in the Southern Baptist Convention. I tend to feel from day to day that we're losing so many churches and so many people.

Not always because of politics a lot of times because of this kind of corruption the retaliation is awful. But the fact that there are powerful people who will make a phone call to your church or to you like you're seeing that with Naples.

Right, you know who will who will make these phone calls behind the scenes and ruin your life because of a petty vendetta. And they're doing it all inside of what they say is Christ's house. It shouldn't be happening.

You should not have jelly.

I wish I could say you're the only one I knew who had suffered from one of those phone calls, but You're not. You're you're willing to talk about About some of this corruption and for that you have my respect and I think the respect of probably a great Majority.

Once they find out of the pew sitters in the Southern Baptist Convention you probably don't know what's actually going on in the institutions like Southwestern, but Robert I'm gonna let you go and I know you know.

You've been through a lot and I hope you just have a great weekend with your family a great Christmas season and and next year I'll be praying for you that you hit the ground running and looking forward to seeing how the Lord uses you in your next phase.

Thank you, God bless you. Yeah, God bless you too. I'll talk to you later. Bye now.