William Wolfe talks SBC & Center for Baptist Leadership

Conversations That Matter

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00:10

Welcome once again to the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris. We have a guest on who's been on the podcast before William Wolfe, how you doing

00:18

William? Good John. Thanks for having me back I think the last time you were on you were not at the

00:24

Center for Baptist leadership because it didn't exist yet So you're gonna talk to us a little bit about what that is

00:29

Southern Baptist Conventions coming up what you hope to accomplish the ground game All of that stuff.

00:35

I'll let you respond to some Preliminary attacks that are being made personally on you as well as the center.

00:41

I wanted to say before I let you do all that that This podcast has been around since 2019

00:49

I guess and leading up to resolution 9 and everything that happened to me this podcast predates that and I was very opposed to Pretty much all the the issues that we're currently seeing the left push in the

01:05

Southern Baptist Convention And it happened before I even started the podcast I mean some people like to say resolution 9 was the beginning but I actually think that this goes back quite a few years

01:16

Maybe even to the Great Commission resurgence in 2010. I know others will say 95.

01:21

I mean everyone's got their dates, but Certainly in the 2010s. We saw an increasing amount of Enthusiasm for the diversity of the

01:32

SPC which meant some sometimes it was unofficial but these Racial almost quotas.

01:39

I don't know how else to say it. I mean There was a concern. It seemed like every convention just about for even if it wasn't in the news

01:47

They'd have to have a resolution about something related to a concern over racism of some kind and usually it was from a leftist framing in fact

01:56

I think every time I can think of it was and then of course we had the me too stuff that came in we have Now there's a fight over women pastors and this is the first one

02:05

William I've seen Conservatives actually find a little bit more spine as far as like as a group

02:12

And maybe that's because they fought over this in the conservative resurgence, you know version one

02:18

This is perhaps conservative resurgence to at least that's what you want it to be so so I I just say all that to say this that People in this audience many of them

02:29

I think have seen this for years and they have battle fatigue if they're in the SPC some have left There's those in the audience who have still stayed and want to keep fighting

02:37

But every year it gets discouraging when they see loss after loss last year Maybe the first time they saw something they wanted win

02:44

But it was something that I think in their minds was obvious like of course the Southern Baptist Convention has for decades been against women pastors so my first question comes from kind of a negative perspective and that's because of this unique audience and how

02:58

They've I think seen this issue What kind of hope can you give that for those in the

03:04

SPC they should hold on to and a reason for them to come Out and fight and that kind of thing. Yeah, I think that's a great question and your framing there was helpful

03:12

And I think just to pull the camera back and think about how this works just in conservative institutions whether it's denominations or Christian colleges or even political parties is that The liberals infiltrate and subvert they they cross their fingers and swear

03:29

They're on your team. And as soon as you give them a seat at the table and let them into your organization They start working against you

03:36

Gary North wrote a whole book about this, you know, we literally called cross fingers how liberals

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Infiltrated and subverted the Presbyterian Church in America And so I think what's happened John is that conservatives really have been playing catch -up on this fight for the last few years

03:52

I think you're absolutely right. It started before 2019 And really we had this period of peace so to speak in the

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Southern Baptist Convention where I think a lot of guys let their guard down and the peace time was sort Of squandered and then on the racial issues and in particular that was really the entry point that was the entry ism into the

04:12

Southern Baptist Convention and of course it was because of the Southern Baptist Convention's history and its founding and so it was a really critical spot a soft spot of vulnerability for winsome oriented pastors and leaders in the

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Southern Baptist Convention to be infiltrated and influenced by New critical theories and forms of cultural

04:33

Marxism coming in in the guise of racial reconciliation but even as you briefly charted out we went from racial issues to me to issues to Egalitarianism and even now we have climate activism and LGBT compromise happening in Southern Baptist Convention It just reminds conservative

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Christians that it always all comes together the camel's nose under the tent of the SBC was on race

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We were particularly vulnerable to that. We didn't deal with it. Well and look at the host of other unbiblical ideologies that have been brought in along with it and so so I say that to say that I want to give hope to Conservatives because we have been playing catch -up and that's sort of on us in some ways

05:13

But we are I think pushing back and in terms of showing up to fight I of course want to always give credit to the people who showed up to the

05:21

Nashville Convention in particular in 2021 that was a massive turnout for conservative

05:28

Southern Baptists who realized something was going deeply wrong with the convention and they got close to a

05:38

Massive win for conservatives and unfortunately stone got attacked and slandered and really drug through the mud

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And so coming out of 21 I think conservatives have been continuing to like regroup and try to Pick different targets to fight on and this one on women pastors is such a big issue

05:55

And we did win last year in New Orleans with the first passage of the law amendment and another point of hope

06:01

I would give to conservatives is that you know I'd say we have we've had six years of really bad leadership in the

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Southern Baptist Convention I'm not gonna mince my words or apologize for that three years of J .D. Greer one year of Ed Litton and then two years of Bart Barber has done nothing to stop the slide

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But this year is an open presidential election year Bart's, you know, not running again

06:24

We have six candidates and we've got some really good options in Jared Moore and in David Allen as strong Conservatives who

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I think have have a real shot at winning And so when I look at Indianapolis here four weeks from today when the convention starts

06:41

I see hope for conservatives if conservatives will do the one thing that we need them to do which is show up very good well the

06:50

Center for those who don't know yet is the Center for Baptist leadership and You are are you what's your position there?

06:56

Are you the president? I'm the founder and executive director I guess I could have given myself the president

07:02

Okay. Yeah, it's pretty much the same thing I suppose and so you have a

07:08

Website I would I guess ask this I really I want to get into the evidence for SBC drift the current issues and then strategy and then some of the opposition that You've experienced but I do want to ask this first though Which I so I'm jumping the gun a little on this tragedy part of this but Center for Baptist leadership is a website

07:27

What more than a website are you though? What kinds of things does the Center for Baptist leadership do that can contribute to this overall fight?

07:36

yeah, the Center for Baptist leadership obviously has a website and We publish articles and we have a podcast as well

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And we have and we're doing a lot of organization for conservatives behind the scenes

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But the goal for what I hope Center for Baptist leadership will be over the years I mean, we've only been out publicly for just over two months now it's really a reform and change agent in the

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Southern Baptist Convention with a Future orientation our mission is to cultivate courageous and uncompromising

08:09

Baptist leadership for the SBC for the 21st century we want to help raise up a new generation of leaders in the

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Southern Baptist Convention at the Institutional level at the pastor level and at the lay member level.

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We really want to help Educate activate and equip lay members to be involved in this because that's really where quite frankly the power lies in the

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Southern Baptist Convention And so we hope to be able to help sort of shift the framing of what it means to be a conservative

08:41

Baptist in the United States of America and the Southern Baptist Convention and really bring us back Lord willing to a point of prominence for good

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Christian conservative good in the United States of America and around the world while we also You know evangelize share the gospel plant churches

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And so the you know, we have we have sort of two main time frames in mind with the Center for Baptist leadership

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One is like a 10 -year effort. Really? That's what it's gonna take a 10 -year effort to revitalize the

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Southern Baptist Convention from within That's our first line of effort. And then the the second timeline is sort of year -over -year

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Educating and equipping Messengers to come to the meeting and driving turnout so that they know what's going on.

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They're showing up to vote so those are our two timelines year -over -year with the convention 10 -year time frame of institutional renewal in the

09:30

SBC and as we thought about our mission at the Center for Baptist leadership if you you can think of a home or you could even think of like a

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Castle or a fort and so that first one revitalize it from within we would say our foundations are

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Failing we need to reshore up our foundations our commitment to sound doctrine and Southern Baptist Convention whether that's on Complementarianism whether that's on, you know biblical sexuality and biblical sexual ethics whether that's on the biblical approach to climate issues or a biblical approach to racial issues

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You know or and quite frankly Ecclesiology There's still a lot of work to be done in the Southern Baptist Convention in terms of our church practices or baptismal practices

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We've really fallen prey to the seeker sensitive movement that's taken over the United States of America in many ways

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So we want to revitalize it from within rebuild our foundations the second one is we want to defend it from those who seek its destruction and that's a little bit of a different line of Effort than what

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I've seen from really any other conservative group out there, which again we love founders loves conservative Baptist Network But at Center for Baptist leadership, we recognize that there are bad actors being paid to infiltrate the

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Southern Baptist Convention so we want to sort of equip our Watchmen on the walls to spot those bad actors before they get in and start causing havoc for us one great example on that John would be the after -party curriculum, you know published by David French former

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Southern Baptist Russell Moore and Curtis Chang That is an entryway into the Southern Baptist Convention for liberalism.

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So we want to help arm pastors and institutional leaders to be on the guard for things like that and not let it within the tent and then the

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Third thing is to be a better Baptist voice in the public square and so if we can reassure our

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Foundations equip the watchmen in the SBC the leaders to look out for the flock sort of inside our tent

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So to speak then third and finally we want to equip people to go out into the public out amongst the wolves so to speak and boldly proclaim the truth of the gospel and the uncompromising applications of Christianity to all of life cultural political

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You know in the home, you know in society and so that's that's what we want to do

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And again, that's our vision right now. Again. We have the website. We have articles. We have a podcast We've got

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I've got great ambitions John. I would love to have Center for Baptist leadership chapters on Seminaries and Baptist colleges future

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Baptist leaders, so to speak, you know and start trying to get after the next generation We hope to publish white papers as we get a little more developed.

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We get past the convention We have time that will be sort of historical deep dives on major issues in the

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Southern Baptist Convention And then in the next in the next few weeks here We sort of hope to publish a packet to equip churches and messengers to be prepared for the convention

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This is a question I get quite a bit is hey, I'm I'm gonna talk. I'm a deacon I'm about to brief my pastors or the deacon board on what's going on at Southern Baptist Convention Do you have anything

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I can use? We want to be that go -to resource for people to get equipped for issues in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. All right Well, that was a nice thorough answer to the question about the

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Southern for Baptist leadership And I wrote down some questions as you were talking. Let's start with evidence before we get to strategy you

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Mentioned because I do know there will be people you maybe even right -wing watch, you know so they'll be watching this podcast and they might not exactly be the

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People who normally watch it and are already briefed on the Southern Baptist stuff. So you mentioned

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Climate and LGBTQ issues. I think that might surprise some Southern Baptists who might Be used to some of the more critical race theory stuff and the me too stuff

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But they might be surprised about the those issues the climate issues. Are you just referring to the series at Southeastern?

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Okay Well, I mean, I think I think that's that's the main one that's the big one but as I've learned at least in my years of working in politics and in denominational issues if if you find a big issue

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I Can almost guarantee that there's smaller issues elsewhere and in other places So I would not be surprised in the same way that many

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Christians are falling prey to emotionally driven manipulative language on Climate issues that yes, we saw one bad very obvious example at Southeastern But I'm sure there's more out there, too

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Yeah, one of the things I noticed tracking some of these issues years ago and to some extent still today

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I don't focus on the Southern Baptist nearly as much but There would be just on their

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YouTube channels or social media feeds sometimes there would just be information that people had not watched some of their

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Some of their videos I went to Southeastern. That's where my degrees from They would have students in the room and the students would be exposed

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These are your future pastors, but as far as online presence sometimes, you know, some of their videos didn't get any views

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No one knew what was really happening because in part no one was paying attention now they've gone underground with some of this stuff as they understand it, but There just aren't people you know like the left has all this manpower to Watch even a podcast like this to find out if there was a gotcha moment with what

14:50

William Wolfe said But we don't have the resources to go to various Southern Baptist institutions to keep an eye on what they're doing

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And so you had some like blatantly obvious things that organizations at the time Like pulpit and pen or capstone report would publish on but as far as people doing research and trying to figure out what's actually being taught to students

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Not a lot of it going on so I'm just reinforcing what you said that there probably is more material that people haven't detected because of the lack of resources, but But yeah, you're for those who don't know

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Southeastern did a few sessions that they exposed their students to that were blatantly and overtly progressive on the issue of climate change even

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With one session. I watched Jonathan Moo combining its climate change activism with the gospel itself, which

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There's no excuse for that's just getting into heretical territory. So what about the

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LGBTQ plus issue? Where do you see this infiltrating the Southern Baptists? Yeah well

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I think that the Southern Baptists like almost all of American evangelicalism have been really taken for a ride for the last decade on what the

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Bible really teaches about sexual morality sexual orientation the ontological nature of being a

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Sexed male and a sexed woman and what that means for our attractions and our desires

16:13

Jared Moore Dr. Jared Moore who is running for president of the Southern Baptist Convention Wrote what is so far our most read article at the

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Center for Baptist Leadership Called the queering of the SBC which the last time I checked it had over 7 ,000 reads which is huge for a new organization like ours

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And in it he sort of he walks through examples of how Compromised Teaching on human sexuality has infiltrated the

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Southern Baptist Convention You know He looks at people like Preston Sprinkle who while Preston Sprinkle is not a

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Southern Baptist His material has been used by many Southern Baptists and promoted at Southern Baptist seminaries and one notable individual

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Rachel Gilson works with Preston Sprinkles ministries and is a

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PhD student at Southeastern and was platformed at the Southern Baptist Convention 2023 women's conference

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I think put on primarily for pastors wives But you know, they she's the type of person who sort of box when asked, you know

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Should we use transgender pronouns also how JD Greer, you know suggested we could use transgender pronouns as an active pronoun hospitality

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And who did Greer get that from who did Greer site in that original article? It was Preston Sprinkle, but also we've had people like Sam Albury and living out ministries being promoted and And some of the people associated with that and with the living out ministries have done things like encouraging same -sex attracted individuals to have like, you know, very very intentionally sort of covenantal committed platonic relationships with members of the same sex and even do things like engage in Cuddling and there was this list of examples given of ways that same -sex attracted

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Christians could sort of do things to not act out On their desires, but still I guess in some way gratified them by going to gay clubs or even going to nudist beaches

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I kid you not that was one of the examples that was provided and and and really whether you know

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Those are some of the more extreme examples, but when it comes down to the issue of orientation, you know, Jared Jared Moore I think has rightly argued that this is a matter of the lust of the flesh and needs to be crucified and he looks at the example of Rosario Butterfield and when she was living her lesbian lifestyle and met a

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Christian pastor and couple that they told her to repent and you know forsake these

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Attractions and seek to reorient her attractions in the way that would honor the Lord So towards the opposite sex and Jared wonders that if if Rosario Butterfield was discipled by somebody like a

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Preston Sprinkle or J .D Greer or Rachel Gilson or maybe even a Karen Swallow Pryor or others like that or revoiced ministries

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Would she be a happily married, you know heterosexual today, so to speak and I'm not sure that that's the counseling that many people are getting and Jared had a great piece in there where he really walks through theologically how

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Our temptations whatever they are are not the same as being tempted like Jesus in particular

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And that's where a lot of this entry point comes in on compromise on homosexual Orientation is people say well if you're tempted to you know lust after the same sex

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It's just like you being tempted like Jesus and Jared says no It's not not at all because that is a disordered desire and whatever temptations

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Jesus ever had That he never sinned in his you know in that moment of temptation

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It would have been for a good thing a rightly ordered thing, you know when Satan tempts Jesus with the kingdoms of the world

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Well, that's a good thing because those are gonna be his anyway, and he resists that but when you're being tempted to lust after a same -sex

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Individual then you're not desiring a good thing in and of itself I'll pause there a lot could be said but the bottom line is that really sort of unbiblical

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Teaching on human sexuality and sexual orientation and homosexuality Has infiltrated the

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Southern Baptist Convention and really all of American evangelicalism And we're just sort of beginning to turn the tide on that It sounds a little bit like the

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LGBTQ issue in that many the examples that you cited seem to be more

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Organizations in Evangelicalism that people who are Southern Baptists are paying attention to but they're not it's not like one of the seminaries overtly necessarily

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Advocating these things if I heard you correctly like you have Rachel Gilson speaking at Southeastern perhaps, but it's not

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You don't have official stands being taken or you know They're not celebrating pride month or anything like that at a

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Southern Baptist institution from what I understand Yeah, I think I think it's um, I think it's maybe a little worse than that So Rachel Gilson was was platformed at the

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Southern Baptist Conventions, you know Women's Pat women's conference in 2023. So that's a very official stamp of approval and what she teaches is unbiblical and then also

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Jared had had quotes from individuals like David Prince the way we've seen this make its way into the

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Southern Baptist Convention is clips from sermons really or or where we see Southern Baptist pastors and teachers

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Saying things like, you know, God doesn't want to make you heterosexual He wants to make you holy as if those could ever be divorced from each other.

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And so David Prince former President of sorry former chairman of the board at the

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ERLC has said similar things like that Patrick Schreiner who is a professor of New Testament studies at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary has also argued

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Along these similar lines where he's saying that same -sex attraction in and of itself is not sin

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So it is and we have it at trustees entity trustees We have it at our seminaries with our professors saying things like same -sex attraction is not sin

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We have someone like Rachel Gilson who is thoroughly compromised in her associations with Preston Sprinkle and what she teaches herself being platform

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Officially at a Southern Baptist conference for women and so it's maybe in between those

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Yes, nobody is saying go march in a pride parade as far as I can tell though Wouldn't be surprised if somebody has said something like that.

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That's a defense. They'll bring up those that you know We don't officially we don't do it These Ivy League schools or it really now your typical college is doing where there is a barrier in or there is a barrier there but it's

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It's a barrier with some holes in it at certain points I should probably mention too just because someone might call this out

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JD Greer did reverse his position on the pronoun hospitality Later on and I as I remember it wasn't like the strongest of reversals, but there was a reversal there at least

22:56

Admitting that maybe he shouldn't have said that Yeah, you're right about that.

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But that um, you know one of the One of the things that bothers me a little bit John is that you know right now

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We have somebody like JK Rowling who not a Christian who just can bluntly speak the truth about Calling, you know transgender women men, which is what they are

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Right a man pretending to be a woman with no hesitation and no apology And yet when you get

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Christian leaders like JD Greer and others you give them a similar question They sort of dance around or they say something wrong and then have to retract it.

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Where is the bold blunt? Truth being spoken about how God made men and women who we should desire sexually

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What is sin and what isn't and if you're gonna cheer on JK Rowling but not say it yourself Well, quite frankly, you're part of the problem.

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Well, let's shift a strategy here for a little bit and Talk about I mean,

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I have a lot of questions on this Let's see, so Let's talk about last year a little bit because last year is where after a series of defeats will say there was somewhat of a

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Glimmer of hope that this law amendment got passed, of course there was a

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Committee formed with the support of past presidents in the SBC to examine the issue of cooperation

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Which this year I suppose will be the big fight. And so when we look at that you mentioned conservative

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Southern Baptists were the ones who stepped up and made that happen last year, but they're also the people who

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Decided to vote for Bart Barber. They're also the same. It's the same group We're talking about that decided to vote for this cooperation committee.

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So How do you view that crowd I mean because you're calling them conservative that they they came last year

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But I'm not so convinced. It was the same or a different crowd. I'm more thinking it was probably the same crowd

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It's just that this is an issue of All the social justice issues infiltrating their way

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This is an issue Southern Baptists have fought before and it's probably more deeply ingrained in their minds that this is a compromise and so you you have a kind of a split group of people who have a conservative instinct on this topic, but yet they're still voting with the platform on everything else just about it seems and I I would say the defeat of Mike Stone also seems like the leftward drift continues.

25:18

It's just that there's a On an issue that they are more capable of fighting on which

25:26

I think they have been for the last 20 years at least If not really more than that They decided to maintain a position they've always had so it's it's more of a maintenance in my mind

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But you see this as a hopeful thing and you think see these as conservative. So maybe explain that and why you're hopeful

25:42

Yeah, well, I think you I think you make a good point John in terms of how you know the room in New Orleans Voted about at a 90 % level we could see the recorded vote on that to kick out

25:53

Saddleback and I was saying that I think the room voted at about an 80 % level to affirm the law amendment

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John Whitehead on his Appearance with Aaron Wren yesterday said he thought it was maybe more along like 90 % but it was definitely overwhelming

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Yet at the same time Bart Barber won re -election with about 70%. So yes there.

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I agree. There's overlap there I guess I'm I'm encouraged that we've found a line that many of the messengers are unwilling to cross

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Even when they are being encouraged to cross that line by the leadership

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So I don't think we should overlook the fact that you're not doing this but just that the

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Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention Went up on the stage and said here's the law amendment and you should vote against it and they didn't listen to them and they voted for it and and sometimes as you know that can hopefully be a

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You know a radicalizing moment for some people Pulls down the veil a little bit and helps them realize really where their leaders are that they would be

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Recommending that they vote against simply reaffirming our commitment from the Baptist faith and message that only

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Qualified men according to scripture can be pastors And so I think on this issue the messengers are in a conservative place whether they're in a conservative place for everything else you know in terms of Personalities or leadership or presidential votes and so however since the it passed last year

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There really has been a very conservative effort by a small slice of Southern Baptist Leaders to work against it and to really try to poison the well against it

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They're throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks to try to beat it And so I am hoping that the messengers stand strong again this year and ratify it

27:40

So, let me ask you this you have two conservatives that are running you said Jared Moore and David Allen and it sounds like you're

27:47

Supportive of either candidate so you haven't taken an official position on one or the other if either of them get in what would change?

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This is hypothetical, of course, and we need to also maybe we should talk about this first. So how how do you get them in?

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Let's talk about that first Strategically, what's the ground game and then we'll talk about what would what they would do and how they would reverse the trend if they had one term

28:09

Yeah, well the way you elect a solid president in the Southern Baptist Convention is by conservative turnout

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To the convention and that's really something that we have struggled with for many years and I'll be honest

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We've not done enough turnout work this year as I would have hoped we do we hope to do it more

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Like I said, we're just getting going But the way you elect a conservative president is by having thousands of Southern Baptist churches

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Realize that they need to take the effort to come to the convention John I can't tell you how many churches

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I have had conversations with pastors lay members where they know that their church gets four five

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Eight messengers that they could send to the convention and they're only sending two or they're only sending one

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And that is that is what the platform is counting on They're counting that the the base of the

29:00

Southern Baptist Convention Which is about 70 % of our churches are a hundred members or less.

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That's really what the Southern Baptist Convention is It's not these mega churches They're the ones that get all the attention, but the the heart of the

29:12

Southern Baptist Convention is churches with a hundred members or less But even due to those churches generous giving they might get anywhere from six to ten or even twelve

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I mean, I know a small church in South Carolina Maybe a hundred and forty people that they get twelve messengers to the

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Southern Baptist Convention and J .D. Greer's church despite all its campuses and everything else doesn't get more than twelve because that's the cap, right?

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And so they they are trying to send all their messengers this year and I know some are waking up to this

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But that's really the bottom line How do you get a better? President to begin to really get all the appointments and all the things that come with it is by faithful Churches not quitting and not sitting it out but showing up and voting.

29:54

I see. Yeah, so Ground game then I know you said you there's probably is not as much work done as you would have hoped this year

30:01

But what has been done? What kinds of things are you seeing that maybe you may you mentioned one example of a church sending twelve messengers

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I don't know if they've done that before but other churches coming out of the woodwork that Haven't been involved and that are getting involved now

30:15

Yeah, I think that is the case and on the law amendment in particular John I do think that many churches are realizing how important this is and they sort of can't believe that this is a

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Point of contention. They can't believe that they're seeing our current president Bart Barber opposed the law amendment

30:30

They can't believe that they saw essentially five past presidents in a roundabout way or explicitly as some of them have

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Opposed the law amendment. They think this is so basic and so they are coming I talked to one pastor in Tennessee who said he had been sort of checked out of convention life for the last five to ten years and then when he

30:49

Was watching what was happening lawmen? He's like, oh I've got to come and I've got to bring my messengers that was last year and he's going to do it again and I think churches realize too that this year that there will be

30:59

Sort of an Empire Strikes Back liberal effort to get to get the their

31:07

Egalitarian messengers to the convention and so I do think the law amendment is really driving

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Turnout and drove it I think in New Orleans to a certain extent It was a pretty good sized convention there about 12 ,000 and it looks like we're on pace for about 12 ,000 again in Indianapolis Which is more than what we had in Indianapolis last time that we met there and so so the main points that we've been hitting to drive this turnout

31:29

John is Know how many messengers your church gets max out your messengers plan to come do what it takes mark divine

31:37

Professor at Beeson Divinity School wrote an excellent article for American Reformer a few months back

31:44

Arguing that churches should view coming to the Southern Baptist Convention like a mission strip and I love that framing

31:50

He's like a missions trip for the future of the Southern Baptist Convention for the future of your children in the

31:56

Southern Baptist Convention And I think that's the mindset That's one of the things we've been trying to work on to change the mindset of how churches approach the

32:03

Southern Baptist Convention But we've been messaging on this and hammering it you have to come you have to come

32:08

For many months now, and I do think that is bearing fruit I've got I've got plans for sort of a turnout operation that we could build over the years that Focuses on the the hotspot regions and has regional representatives, you know

32:22

Did you know every week in touch with churches and working this angle and we hope to do that more next year?

32:28

But also I know that Jared Moore and David Allen have been doing a lot of sort of the ground game themselves as their presidential candidates

32:34

Contacting churches contacting messengers David Allen's been preaching in a different pulpit. It seems like every

32:40

Sunday Which is exactly what you have to do Jared Moore has been doing a lot of outreach work and then also

32:45

I would say that the abortion abolitionists Because there are some candidates running for some downstream ballot

32:53

Officers like first VP second VP things like that Wesley Russell who's an abortion abolitionist

32:59

I know the abortion abolitionists are working the ground game as well And so it is being worked and we'll see what how it turns out.

33:05

Yeah, they're a motivated group and I Guess so I have so many questions and I want to just try to be briefer.

33:15

Well, no, no, you're doing good I just want to make sure that I Asked the right ones. So you mentioned a mission trip?

33:22

I guess Mark Devine had said it's like a missions trip And I think this is the hang -up for a lot of Southern Baptists in my opinion at least

33:30

I've seen that over the years is they They they're in the Southern Baptist Convention for cooperation for the purpose of ministry specifically and When it becomes not about ministry and when it's not sharing the gospel making disciples directly when it becomes more of a political fight and It takes a lot of your church's resources

33:51

So I mean sending 12 messengers from a church. That's a little over a hundred people. That's some serious cash

33:57

I mean and maybe there's big, you know a donor that's stepping in or something, but not all churches have the access to funds and so it's money that could be going for actual ministry in their communities that is now going to fight what feels like At least for the past few years.

34:15

It's felt like kind of a discouraging battle that things, you know Aren't going the way they want so talk to those guys who are thinking like hey

34:22

The purpose of this whole thing was ministry and now you're asking me to kind of shift into more of a political mindset

34:28

I don't like I could spend that to spend those resources on actual ministry and just pull out

34:34

Yeah, well to that I would say that this is actual ministry The work of being present to have a say about the boundaries of your cooperation in a voluntary

34:47

Association a denomination is an aspect of the ministry It's an aspect of defending the gospel and seeing to it that the true and unadulterated

34:56

Gospel can be advanced So, you know the Southern Baptist Convention churches partner together for the sake of the gospel for missions work overseas

35:05

Planting churches and reaching unreached people for church revitalization and evangelism and church planting on the

35:12

North American continent You know for theological training for the next generation of pastors in our country

35:18

Six of the ten largest seminaries in America are these six Southern Baptist theological seminaries that you know

35:25

I think it's about 40 percent. I can't remember the exact number but of a good

35:31

Big chunk of all future pastors in our country are trained by the

35:36

Southern Baptist Convention so when you think of what type of pastor is going to pastor the church that my kids grow up in or What type of pastor is going to pastor the church that I'm going to be moving to if I have to move to a new?

35:47

Area there's a good chance. It's somebody who's been trained at a Southern Baptist seminary And so this is ministry policing the boundaries and forcing our doctrine is a necessary aspect of gospel ministry

35:59

And so I would just say to them that don't say this is an actual ministry It is and also just I'd say, you know

36:06

Recognize the times that we live in and we might not have asked for this, but we have a responsibility here, right

36:12

John? So I've said before that you might not be interested in politics in the Southern Baptist Convention But politics in the

36:18

Southern Baptist Convention is interested in you and your church and the seminaries You want to send people to and the missionary agency you want to plant with and so you can't just shirk that responsibility to engage in the political effort of showing up and voting and being informed and treating the

36:36

Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting as an outgrowth of your ministry from a

36:42

Southern Baptist Church and not a Retreat for your pastors or a vacation for you and your wife, but really it's it's a job to do

36:50

We have work to do we have business to do it's a it's a business meeting you have business meetings in your churches and you don't view those as a

36:57

Distraction from the ministry of your local church because it's a necessary part of it well this is our business meeting a

37:02

Southern Baptist and it's necessary for the health and the longevity of the Southern Baptist Convention and if you

37:08

If you shirk that responsibility, well, I would just want to have a conversation with you and help you try to reprioritize

37:14

No, I would assume that you don't leave organizations like the Episcopalian Church or the

37:22

PC USA are Maybe I'm wrong But I would assume you don't think that like a reconquista effort is probably the wisest way to go on those things

37:31

And so there is a point at which it's not worth it so that's this is a harder question for an organization just starting to revitalize the

37:38

Southern Baptist Convention and You're in it for the long haul. But is there a point at which you say If it keeps going in this more leftward direction,

37:48

I guess we got to pull out. What is that point? Well, of course that point can exist

37:56

I mean it's existed for many denominations and congregations within those denominations church that churches that got out of the

38:03

PC USA and started the PCA or churches that got out of the PC USA and joined the you know Evangelical free church or what have you or the

38:10

United Methodists right now splitting in the global Methodist So that point does come I just really

38:16

I'm really not convinced we're there yet in the Southern Baptist Convention because I do believe that there are a lot of ways in which you can be

38:25

Smart about your engagement with a Southern Baptist Convention and make sure that your dollars aren't going to anything that you would find

38:33

Objectionable so by staying in the Southern Baptist Convention where you have autonomy over your local church

38:38

And this is a really important point John is that you know, Southern Baptist churches are autonomous Congregational churches the

38:44

Southern Baptist Convention doesn't own your church's property. They can't control what you do in your own church So make sure your church is rock solid, you know

38:52

Make sure your church is preaching the gospel is not welcoming and any of these worldly ideologies But then with the money that you would give to the

38:59

Southern Baptist Convention You can to get your votes and be a change agent. You can direct them to the entities that you trust the most

39:07

So if you don't want to give to the cooperative program, you can give to the IMB, you know And you can give your money to the

39:13

IMB and that way you can have a better sense that your money is going to be used for good things and I would say

39:18

I know there are concerns with IMB and I don't think they handled COVID and the vaccine well at all in particular, but the

39:25

IMB actually still has a very strong statement on you know, defending the role of pastor being reserved for men even in different contexts and cultures

39:35

I mean if we could just adopt the IMB statement on who a pastor is that would be excellent, right? And so access to that is still available and being smart with how you give your funds gives you influence

39:46

But you can make sure that you don't give to the ERLC or you can make sure that you don't give to NAMM or you Can make sure you don't give to a seminary that's concerning to you but you can give to the ones that you have confidence in stay in and and work to change and And make sure that you don't let any of this subversive liberal infiltration

40:04

Come into your own church And so I really just don't think that we're at the point yet where there's no way to be involved in the

40:11

Southern Baptist Convention Without compromising. I think there absolutely is you can be involved without compromising and you can work for change and the reality

40:19

John is that almost every time conservatives get infiltrated and they hand over a

40:24

Denomination an institution a seminary to the liberals and go start their own thing that next thing is often

40:32

Diminished right or it takes a long time to be, you know grown again I would say if all the conservatives left the

40:39

Southern Baptist Convention I would be hard to see how in our lifetime We would rebuild something else with six seminaries and the largest international mission -sending agency in the world

40:48

And I think that's worth fighting for and the fight is not over yet. Yeah good answer What would you say to pastors who want to take your recommendation and they want to give to good entities and not bad ones?

41:00

Just tell us the who's who of like, you know, what seminaries would you give to what seminary?

41:06

Should you not give to you that kind of thing? well Yeah I mean I think that everybody's gonna have sort of different ways that they they rack and stack these things and some of our

41:14

Seminaries are in in flux right now and there's been issues that you know one seminary another in fact

41:20

Maybe maybe with the seminaries. I don't know if I want to want to pick and choose some of those I mean, I do know that I think

41:26

Southeastern there are there are churches who have a lot of concerns with Southeastern And are going to be you know working to sequester their giving from them

41:34

And I would not recommend giving to the ERLC right now I think probably one of the safest bets in the

41:39

Southern Baptist Convention right now is the International Missions Board If you give to the IMB, you can be giving to what is by and large a healthy effort to plant gospel and Baptistic churches now there have been issues in the

41:52

IMB with sort of their missionary Strategy and philosophy they they sort of fell prey to some of these like missionary movements that were trying to plan a lot of churches that weren't really churches and just sort of rack and stack the numbers and There's there's certainly some need for reform there.

42:07

But by and large, I think that's a safe place You can also give to your to your local associations if you have more confidence in them and that still continues to get you access and votes in the

42:18

Southern Baptist Convention and With the IMB the kovat thing was a huge huge deal as well

42:23

I remember have friends who came off the field because of that and so Let's talk.

42:31

Let me ask you this. This is kind of since I'm already asking you questions that Are you politically hard to answer?

42:38

I was gonna ask you another one is Jarvis Williams at and I'm just picking him because he's kind of Been an obvious example of this

42:45

I suppose and he's from your seminary to the one you graduated from Southern Seminary Is Jarvis Williams a good brother in Christ in your mind?

42:54

Well, I don't know Joe I don't know Jarvis Williams personally at all

42:59

I mean and I certainly have a category for people who are you use the phrase good brothers in Christ I certainly have a category for those who are brothers in Christ who are deeply confused on Major issues and from what

43:13

I've seen from Jarvis he seems deeply confused about the nature of critical race theory and whether or not it can be a

43:21

Useful part of the Christian life. I would say that it really it can't be it's unbiblical and should be rejected

43:27

From what I've seen of what Jarvis has said publicly including this 2017 interview with Matt Smethurst at the

43:33

Gospel Coalition again, you were saying this stuff started before 2019 and it did there's a 2017 interview with Matt Smethurst at the

43:40

Gospel Coalition where Jarvis Williams is saying he wished that Christians would read more critical race theory.

43:46

So I think that's a deeply problematic My personal preference would certainly be that people like Jarvis Williams are with those commitments are not teaching at Southern Baptist Seminaries and so I would you know, if I if I was ever asked

44:01

I would say no I don't recommend taking a class with Jarvis Williams if I was the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary I would

44:09

I would seek to dismiss him unless he sort of publicly recants of his commitment and his

44:14

Propagation of critical race theory. I think I think that's pretty simple I'm sure this is gonna earn me a lot of enemies and frustration for saying that but that's that's that's my personal opinion

44:24

I think that has no place in a Southern Baptist Theological Center. Yeah. Well, I mean you are a friend but Coming on this podcast.

44:32

I did say I was gonna ask some hard questions and the reason I asked that one is because I think that has been maybe the number one frustration that Concerned what

44:42

I consider conservatives, you know Orthodox believers who are fighting for biblical integrity in the Southern Baptist Convention who are

44:49

Unapologetic and uncompromising about it. This is the number one concern that I have heard you think of a guy like Russell Fuller You know, he's that he's the kind of guy

44:57

I'm talking about where conservative candidates For the presidency of the

45:03

SBC and and other leaders in the convention Who have wanted to represent conservatives and are conservative and their instincts have been very unwilling to Say that these guys and Jarvis Williams is just one of them

45:16

I think he's an obvious example because he says racial reconciliation is the gospel and that in his version it his racial reconciliation is

45:23

CRT Basically, so he he is blatantly combining Law and grace.

45:29

I mean Walter Strickland does the same thing Blatantly, I have many quotes where he does this. He misrepresents what the gospel is and it's it's heresy

45:37

I mean, I don't have a problem saying that but a lot of guys Have called them and that's the I use that term on purpose good brothers that they're just good brothers

45:45

They're confused and it sounds like you you don't want to necessarily say good brothers, but you want to still also extend that Benefit of well, maybe they're just confused on this they don't really know and my contention has been if we're gonna fight for the integrity of the

46:00

SBC that there are there are real heretics that are Pushing the needle left and in bad directions and they need to be called what they are

46:09

They're wolves and and I would say, you know Jarvis Williams just based on his teaching. He's teaching heresy.

46:15

That makes him a heretic And he's doing consistently without repentance for a number of years.

46:21

So you don't have to respond to that if you don't want to but I you you are obviously allowed to I've just want people to understand why

46:29

I'm asking that why that's been a frustration and I know Center for Baptist leadership is a little more aggressive on these things but you know,

46:39

I Just yeah So if you want to say anything you can or else we'll move on to some of the attack against you guys

46:44

No, no sure John. I mean, I appreciate it and it's a serious conversation Um, I was not this is not a cop -out at all

46:50

I've not I can't tell you the last time I've read something from Jarvis Williams, right? Like I'm not I'm not sort of focusing on on him

46:57

And so but when I when I use that word confused I do want to clarify and maybe even be a little sharper here, which is that I don't think

47:05

Jarvis Williams doesn't know what he's Teaching and what he's advocating for.

47:11

It's not like he was taken for a ride I think he he but he believes it and I think so confused sounds a little too nice I think he's wrong.

47:19

And I think you're right that it is that that is a heretical teaching it is heretical to be

47:25

Syncretizing the gospel with critical race theory. And so I think you know again in terms of divining somebody's

47:34

The sincerity of somebody's profession of faith, of course only the Lord knows that but what

47:40

I think can be done at an Institutional level is drawing really clear boundaries and saying that if you are

47:48

Advocating things like these we do not understand or accept these as Orthodox Christian teaching and that's not going to be allowed at our seminary.

47:57

We're not so we're not we're not a salvation tribunal We're not excommunicating you we're not, you know, issuing a pronunciation on the status of your salvation

48:06

But we're saying that we recognize that these teachings are outside of the bounds of Orthodox Christianity and they're not going to have any place in our institutions and on issues like critical race theory and others and quite frankly on the

48:18

The the LGBT issues or the approach to homosexuality that we're talking about earlier I think our

48:23

Southern Baptist seminaries need to draw those very clear lines and say that if you're teaching contrary to scripture on some sort of syncretism of critical race theory in the gospel some sort of syncretism of critical gender theory or queer theory in the gospel that we are we will not give our stamp of approval on this as an

48:43

Orthodox Christian teaching it will not be tolerated in our institutions and anybody who is Advocating for this either needs to repent and recant publicly or they need to find somewhere else to work

48:54

Yeah, good. Good response. Let me squeeze it just a little more. So Jonathan Moo just made this presentation

49:01

What last year maybe I think it was Or at least I think they posted it last year at Southeastern on climate change and he did the same thing on that issue conflating it with the gospel

49:14

And it's or saying that this is part of the gospel This is your responsibility as Christians to participate as activists essentially and yet when he was called on the carpet

49:25

Well, I shouldn't say he but when people at Southeastern were called on the carpet for this by folks like Megan Basham And then

49:33

Tom Buck even got involved There was no Distancing themselves from that teaching.

49:40

So you had guys like Ken Keith Lee coming out publicly and Trying trying to smooth it over as if they had all these other they had they had opposing viewpoints there as well

49:50

Which they didn't I mean, I think Mark Liederbach was like they're supposed conservative and I had him for ethics and he's a nice guy

49:56

I mean, I liked him, but he's definitely not am I he would not be a conservative. I'm talking politically on the climate issue and There's some concerning things even in the book that he had us read but All that to say it was just a defensive posture.

50:13

There was no Recognition that actually had future students going to SBC churches from an

50:19

SBC institution who hadn't been exposed to heresy From the at the direction and the endorsement of SBC leaders.

50:28

There was there is no distancing themselves from that And so so this is my question You you look at a guy like Jonathan Moo who

50:35

I would say. Okay, you got false teaching He brought it in and now you got guys who have been given ample opportunity to repent for that to distance themselves

50:43

To put a you know, some kind of warning and they haven't done it. They've doubled down. What do you do with those guys?

50:50

Yeah, well, I think fundamentally you just you can't trust them right I mean that that's that's what it comes down to you know you can't trust people and and I think this gets to John really one of the

51:01

The greatest pathologies, maybe that's the word I would use the pathologies of the present

51:06

American evangelicalism is this complete? Allergy to owning to any mistakes and to saying, you know that hey

51:16

We had somebody here who said things that were heretical who compromised the gospel and they got it wrong

51:21

And we got it wrong for bringing them here. We apologize evangelical leaders big

51:29

Eva acts as if repentance grace and restoration don't exist in the Christian life at the

51:35

Institutional and public level and that's just not true I know that so many yourself included so many of your listeners myself is that we we want to see repentance and restoration for people who have embraced or defended heretical teachings or Syncretized versions of Christianity with any number of progressive

51:54

Ideologies and yet instead what we almost always get is the double down we get the defensive posture

52:00

We get the sweep it under the rug We get that well You're just being conservative rabble rousers trying to make a mountain out of a molehill

52:08

And so when we see those reactions to me that the number one thing it tells me is that these men

52:14

Care more about their public image than they do about the gospel of Jesus Christ and about the stewardship that they're currently entrusted with whether that's equipping the next generation of theologians and pastors in You know in the

52:28

United States or in the Southern Baptist Convention, or you know planting churches I mean we could bring up NAM and all their egalitarian church planting practices that have been exposed also by people like Tom Buck, etc

52:39

And so I'd say at the bottom line is it shows you that you can't trust them and you shouldn't trust them until you see

52:47

You know genuine fruit of repentance and human and and some humility a little humility would help

52:52

So you this is why I ask Let's say you get Jared Moore or David Allen into the presidency of the

52:59

SBC. They have a task in front of them They have years of what I would consider to be rot

53:05

They have we'll just take the Southeastern example since that's when I just brought up you have an entire

53:10

Administration that would probably need to be fired because they have been not just derelict on their duty

53:16

They've been damaging to students who actually go to their school by not defending them against bad ideas

53:22

That are challenged the very premise of why the institution exists So you'd have

53:28

I don't know what the percentage would be at this point, but I'm assuming it would be a whole lot of professors

53:34

That at Southeastern that would need to be fired all the ones that I knew that were the safe professors I mean with a lot of conservative students had like we had an unofficial list of like these are the guys that you go to When you go to Southeastern because you're not going to get any of that garbage

53:48

None of those guys are still there one of them well, I don't want to give two specifics of people because we try to keep that list secret, but most of those guys aren't there and so The president of the

54:01

SBC now, it's kind of like Trump when he gets into the White House, right? He has now a deep state around him.

54:09

That's in ingrained and they're gonna start saying the things he wants to hear to keep their jobs and so forth and You know, what does he do?

54:16

Who does how does he deal with this mess? And so that's my question is what can they do? What can

54:22

Jared Moore do or David Allen in a year term? To kind of and you said a ten -year

54:28

I guess Strategy is what you're looking at but to reverse this Right.

54:33

So whether it's Southeastern or any other SBC entity what you're touching on John is the issue with our trustees and the management of our

54:42

Southern Baptist Convention entities by their boards of trustees and that's that's why when the original conservative resurgence started they realized the the path to long -term reform lies through the president and through the presidency because the president gets to appoint a committee on committees and the committee on committees gets to appoint a committee on nominations and the committee on Nominations is the one that recommends slates of trustees year -over -year

55:11

We vote on trustees for all of these entities and the messengers need to take a much more active role in this process the messengers need to remember that the messengers don't answer to the trustees the trustees answer to the

55:25

Messengers and so, you know, that's where we have one term of conservative president gets us one batch one percentile better trustees in the

55:35

Southern Baptist Convention a second term gets us more and then if we get you know Another conservative president after that more and more and so I don't know if it's really it's not really ten years

55:45

It's really more I think around five or six years to to sort of help cycle through and replace the trustees

55:51

That are overseeing these entities with strong biblically grounded convictional conservative

55:58

Southern Baptists who are actually going to do their job and not just go along to get along and so Yes, I mean it would make a difference one year would make a difference if you can get 15 %

56:09

Strong trustees on these boards and start causing issues and and good issues start causing godly trouble and this kind of gets back

56:16

John to the the whole American reformer mindset which American reformer was integral in helping launch the

56:23

Center for Baptist leadership, which is we're trying to find those coalitions of you know

56:29

Constituencies within Christian institutions to help make good change and to beat back the liberalism and that often involves trustees so if you can get you know 15 % strong trustees from one year of a conservative presidency

56:43

And then we can connect those trustees with solid resources get them equipped help them You know be prepared for these meetings to show up and to advocate for responsibility and for accountability

56:54

Get those trustees willing to go out and on the record about things that are happening behind the scenes

56:59

That Southern Baptists need to know about I mean even that would begin to have an impact You get a second year and you get more and more and more and so I do think we need

57:08

Four or five six solid years of good presidents to replace these trustee boards But you know a great example would be somebody like John Whitehead.

57:16

He's on the advisory board of the Center for Baptist leadership He's a trustee at the ARLC He recorded two long episode podcasts with me on what went down behind the scenes at the

57:26

ARLC with Russell Moore's departure and now that sunlight is Sitting out there as accountability and showing so many people how broken our trustee system is with the trustees really acting as rubber stamps for the whims and the ego of the

57:41

Institutional leaders at our different entities and so that's that's that's how it works in the

57:47

Southern Baptist Convention. It's how it's always worked It's how the conservative resurgence was fought and won was with through getting the good presidents who are committed to Appointing good trustees to oversee these entities and then you know,

58:00

I'll wrap it up with this You think about what happened to a southern back in the day, you know, the original conservative resurgence started in 1979

58:06

The trustees were not replaced enough to the point where they'd bring in what was at the time this young firebrand

58:13

Conservative who was gonna clean house in Albert Muller until 1993 79 to 93 and then that's where we had trustees who brought in somebody like Muller who cleaned house

58:23

We need to do that again and get a whole new class of young leaders who are gonna clean house in our entities

58:29

So let me with the last few minutes just ask you on that note. I think that's a great transition here to talk about some of the attacks on the

58:42

Center for Baptist leadership and on you personally over this issue because there's people who

58:47

Seem to be very concerned I mean if whether the right takes you seriously the left seems to like they seem to think that That you have some momentum with this and can are capable of doing some damage to their project

59:02

Which I think conservatives if you don't take any encouragement if you're still in the Southern Baptist Convention That may be a point of encouragement that the left seems scared

59:11

By you William and it's not just people who even consider themselves on the left I mean, you got some more liberal types and I mean, you know, you're a neo -conservative type liberal you know,

59:22

I don't even know what how to categorize them, but you know, they would say they're against wokeness, but they're very afraid of you and And so I just want to give you an opportunity

59:32

You why I said this was a good transition as you mentioned Muller and that's one of the line of attacks I've seen from people who are

59:39

And I think I don't think there's many of them But they tend to be loud on X about your connections to Al Muller and that Muller was someone who actually compromised and Let in a lot of the bad teachers and some of the bad ideas

59:54

He also even advocated some of the bad ideas I even write about this in my book Christianity and social justice that Muller brought in CRT stuff

01:00:03

He brought in the me too stuff. He was wrong on the at least initially

01:00:08

He's reversed his position though on both Some of the his abortion positions on you know, whether women should be punished and his position on homosexual orientation

01:00:16

I mean I could there's so many things and And you of course, you know, and I'm putting you in an awkward spot and I realize this so you don't have to answer

01:00:25

But you for the third time today. Well, yeah, you're gonna regret coming on this podcast But but that is a line of attack people use that, you know

01:00:33

Wolf isn't really so you got it coming from the road I guess the right for lack of a better term that wolf really isn't conservative

01:00:39

Because he's got this molar connection and he went to Southern Seminary and I you know, I went to Southeastern So I guess I would be sort of in that boat, but you're worse than I am.

01:00:47

It's more woke. Yeah, it is So, what do you make of that attack and then we can expand it to other attacks on the center

01:00:56

Sure. Yeah, and I do hope also before we wrap up that again just touch real briefly on on What like getting people to Indy one last time but with this stuff, let's so man

01:01:06

I would I would just say that, you know I have been doing my own thing in many ways at great at great cost to opportunities and Associations and and other things because of what

01:01:19

I believe in what I mean by that is, you know Yeah, I went to Capitol Hill Baptist Church for 10 years

01:01:24

Mark Dever led me to the Lord and I'm not ever going to you know Say anything negative about Mark Devers love for me his spiritual love for me him his sharing the gospel

01:01:35

With me his bringing me to faith his discipling me in the faith. The brother baptized me.

01:01:41

He married me I love that man in many ways as a spiritual father and yet in my latter 20s in my time at CHBC early 30s

01:01:50

I Began to develop certainly different convictions or I would say that I was surprised by some of the things

01:01:57

I saw from leading figures in the Evangelical movement and even some of the things that came out of Capitol Baptist Church about approaches to social justice and racial reconciliation

01:02:09

I was surprised by the way that men I looked up to Responded to these cultural flashpoints and I behind the scenes no social media back then, you know

01:02:21

Stuck to my convictions held my ground spoke up against things lost friendships

01:02:27

I'm sure lost opportunities, you know, because I because I held my ground on that, you know it was through reading this interchange back and forth between the

01:02:36

BD on a weebly who was a Pastor at CHBC at the time and Doug Wilson on racial issues that I found

01:02:42

Doug whenever that was maybe 2015 2016 2017 and Felt like Wilson was really a lifeline for me during that time in terms of the cultural commentary from an unapologetic

01:02:53

Christian perspective and so yeah I mean I had a great time at CHBC left there under very friendly conditions.

01:03:01

I did their internship there I was so thankful to do that. I absolutely believe in the ecclesiological Project there of helping bring healthy practices back to Baptist churches and American churches

01:03:12

But I absolutely disagreed with you know, even some of nine marks public Posturing on critical race theory racial issues and in political issues

01:03:21

We had black lives matter Trump and Kovac and I found myself on the other side of the line of that as many people there in DC and that's just that's just the truth of the matter and I spoke out and held my ground and if people want to Accuse me really through guilt by association of holding views that I don't hold.

01:03:42

I can't I can't do anything about that I know what I've done And I know what I've stood for and what

01:03:47

I've advocated for. I mean even now even in 2024 I often just get furious about what happened during kovat and speak out on it because I think was a total tragedy and You know, it's it's so funny

01:03:59

I let a I let a book reading group at Capitol Baptist Church with you know 10 12 other members through cynical theories by James Lindsay and Helen Pluck rose to try to do a little bit of my own

01:04:11

Part to help inoculate Christians against critical theory and I'm sure you know, that wasn't particularly

01:04:20

I know right and so then I went to Southern Seminary and I To finish my degree online and I did the presidential internship in Mueller's office

01:04:30

I thought it was a good opportunity to learn what I could From dr. Mueller as as a major figure in American evangelicalism to see how he operates with the briefing

01:04:41

And and the thing is John is that I'm I was a grown man. I was in my 30s I'd worked for 10 years in politics.

01:04:48

My own views were cemented and solid. I had a wife and kids I wasn't going to be influenced or subverted in any way

01:04:55

I felt confident standing on my own two feet with my own convictions being incredibly Anti -woke if we want to use that term and still having an opportunity to watch it really sort of a historical figure in American Evangelicalism operate and see what

01:05:09

I can learn from that and if there's good things there to apply it to my own life You know, and so I did the presidential internship there at at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary There's no denying that or hiding that But at the same time as I began to be outspoken on social media about conservative issues issues in American evangelicalism

01:05:30

I would I would say, you know, I don't want to delve into a lot of things But I would say that the reception that I got on the campus there certainly from some quarters was not a particularly welcome

01:05:39

One right and and there were concerns with me being so outspoken and yet I continued to do so Even at that personal cost and so again, this is not something that I just am going to air all the time

01:05:52

But I know where I stand. I know what I've done. I know what I believe and I'm my own man and yeah,

01:05:58

I know the truth before the Lord and these guilt by association attacks are just Quite frankly, they're silly they're petty and I try to ignore them.

01:06:08

But thank you for giving me an opportunity to you're welcome, and I'll just say since I've known you for a few years and and we've talked now and then that you know,

01:06:17

I think that's one of the more ridiculous attacks just because a few reasons but some of the same people that seem to not like you and they're very

01:06:26

Enthusiastic about their dislike of what you're doing are the same people who dislike what I've been doing And so the if you want to like put a friends enemies list ours would probably look fairly similar

01:06:36

The guys who also are, you know, pushing the needle left in the SBC They don't seem to be in like you don't see them publicly coming out to endorse what you're doing at all

01:06:47

Which is not a problem for them when it's their own friends. So You know, maybe there's an uneasy kind of or I shouldn't even say uneasy

01:06:55

Maybe there's a relationship that you've cultivated like with someone like a mark debor where you know There's a personal connection that existed previous to some of these political debates.

01:07:04

So you're not gonna really attack each other, but there's no reason to think that there is that you're a pawn in their hands in some way because You once went to their school or their church or you know had a job with them or anything like that And if that were the case,

01:07:20

I mean we'd have to really get rid of a lot of We'd have to get rid of Trump to be quite frank I mean we'd have to get a rid of a lot of people who rub shoulders with others

01:07:28

We disagree with so the question has always been to me not whether you worked with someone But you know, were you aligned in your purpose when you worked with them?

01:07:36

Were you? were you drinking from the same well and spouting the same things and wanting to accomplish the same goals and and none of that's proven that's something that people just kind of bring with a shadowy kind of I don't even know what word to use but just like As Assumptions that this must be the case just because someone rubbed shoulders with someone else

01:07:58

So I don't see those attacks, you know coming from a lot of people But just because they are out there and I think on this podcast in particular

01:08:06

There's a higher percentage of people who might be exposed to those attacks. I figure I'd start with that But why don't you respond to some of the other things?

01:08:14

So I I see things out there about mostly coming from people who are overtly on the left

01:08:20

But the center is political that they're funded through nefarious dark shadow

01:08:25

There's a dark shadowy thing to that one, but that they've got like political money pouring in maybe it's even got connections to To people who are enemies of the

01:08:35

United States Yeah, yeah, I mean all this stuff is is kind of floating around that you know you're a crazy

01:08:43

Christian nationalist who has insane ideas and Whatever you want to say go for it

01:08:51

Yeah, the Center for Baptist Leadership is funded by very generous donations from concerned

01:08:57

Baptists I mean I I did the fundraising myself, you know last Fall and you know where our support comes from churches our support comes from private

01:09:08

Baptist donors and of course, I'm sure we've had some support from non Baptist too because there are many

01:09:15

American Christians who are deeply concerned about the direction of the Southern Baptist Convention because of how what a major player it is in American Evangelicalism, so I mean

01:09:24

I'm not going to for a second turn away generous support from Presbyterians or Lutherans or Anglicans or generic evangelicals, what have you?

01:09:34

Who care about our mission, but you know, our mission is an explicitly Baptistic mission and our mission again fundamentally first and foremost is for the revitalization of the

01:09:46

Southern Baptist Convention And for the sake of the gospel and the the churches that are preaching that gospel in the

01:09:54

Southern Baptist Convention our missions Planting efforts our evangelism our church planting efforts our theological training efforts at the seminaries as we've covered

01:10:03

But there you know, we do want to apologetically Recognize that the Southern Baptist Convention is a political player in the

01:10:10

United States of America and one of the reasons I Unapologetically recognize that John is because the left knows it like to their bones

01:10:18

They realize how important the Southern Baptist Convention is and how important Southern Baptists are

01:10:24

For holding back the darkness in America and they want to chip away at the foundations

01:10:30

They want to break down the walls They want to try to move that voting block to the left as much as they can and I think it's a worthy thing

01:10:37

To try to help, you know, whatever part of the Southern Baptist Convention plays into American political systems to help it stand strong help to stay conservative help it not be subverted

01:10:48

So it's a both -and effort, but you know last I checked we don't have any donations from shadowy foreign

01:10:56

Political figures or anything like that In fact if anybody's listening to this we are running a week -long fundraising effort right now with a very generous match on the table for the

01:11:06

Center for Baptist Leadership as We look to raise some additional funds for the sake of a convention event that we will be doing the

01:11:14

Center for Baptist Leadership Will be hosting an event at the Southern Baptist Convention that has costs associated with it.

01:11:21

It's going to be a great event some great speakers We're also looking to continue to help raise some funds to help those small

01:11:26

Baptist pastors Have some travel stipends to get to the convention to produce quality resources, etc

01:11:33

So everything you give to the Center for Baptist Leadership for the next week is absolutely matched. No apologies there but those those are ridiculous attacks

01:11:42

John and I do think hopefully they speak to our efficacy so far and the the reckon the record

01:11:51

Recognition that we are being effective and trying to get good things done. Let me ask you this will be my final question

01:11:57

I suppose and then we can talk about you can make your your pitch certainly for people to be involved and to come on out to the convention, but you

01:12:08

It's kind of silly for me to even to ask this but a number of people I've noticed online have been spreading this idea that you're not even a member of the

01:12:15

Southern Baptist Convention and you're In it behind that is you're in this for the political end of it

01:12:22

Which I'll say this to defend you First of all, you were in the Trump administration at you know

01:12:27

Fairly influential position and I find it laughable that people think that you know you're in it for the politics when you could have just continued that and you decided instead to go the seminary route and to Put your really go through a whole lot of inconvenience

01:12:43

Financially and otherwise when you could have had a cushier job in order to help the Southern Baptist Convention So that's going around though that you're not really invested in this denomination you just want to inject your

01:12:54

Christian nationalist ideas into it and Subvert it and make it a political thing.

01:13:00

Yeah, I've been I've been a Southern Baptist for 13 years John. I became a

01:13:05

Southern Baptist in at the end of 2011 really when I became a Christian And was a member had a

01:13:12

Southern Baptist Church was baptized as Southern Baptist Church married at a Southern Baptist Church I am a graduate of the

01:13:19

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and I am I am, you know, I'm a member out of Southern Baptist Church here in North Carolina now

01:13:27

And so I I don't know where these talks, you know where all this is coming from But it's it's ridiculous.

01:13:35

My family and I moved back to North Carolina, you know back last fall and you know trying to find us a

01:13:44

Southern Baptist Church and I am reformed I don't make that a big piece of what I Do because I believe that we need the non -reformed and the reformed conservative

01:13:53

Southern Baptist to really join together against this but I personally am very Reformed and so trying to find a reformed

01:14:00

Southern Baptist Church that is not operating on a seeker sensitive model which many do and are that takes membership seriously because that's important to me that preaches expositionally and then is

01:14:13

Oriented towards the fights of our current day in such a way that somebody like myself would be welcome there

01:14:19

Well, that's kind of like trying to find a needle in the haystack just about anywhere you go these days But by God's grace, he's provided an excellent church for me and my family here in this area

01:14:29

And so it's just it's a ridiculous line of attack. There's nothing to it

01:14:34

And if for some reason taking a few months to find a good church for my family after we moved back to my hometown

01:14:41

Makes me quote -unquote not a Southern Baptist Well, then I think a lot of people would not be

01:14:46

Southern Baptist, but I've been a Southern Baptist for 13 years The point here is to help reform the Southern Baptist Convention This is not a you know, this is not me trying to inject anything

01:14:56

I personally believe into this effort but really call Baptist to stand on what we say we believe and Rearticulate it and defend it for future generations.

01:15:06

Well said well, I appreciate you You've done a very good job answering these questions. What's your message to Southern Baptists who are listening?

01:15:15

Regarding the convention coming up. Yeah, I think to that I would just say that if you're listening to this and you're in a

01:15:20

Southern Baptist Church It is not too late for you to come to Indianapolis. We need you there. We need your church there

01:15:26

We need your messengers there. If you're a lay member Let me encourage you to reach out to your pastor and just check in and say hey pastor

01:15:33

Are you going to the Southern Baptist Convention this year? There's some big issues There's the law amendment Defending the sanctity of the pulpit and the call that only biblically qualified men can be pastors in God's Church Would you support that?

01:15:45

Are you going? If you're a pastor and you've been weighing can I make it or not? Let me encourage you to make the trip make the travel look at how many messengers your church gets

01:15:55

It's not too late to have a business meeting at your church stand up there and say this is a major year for the

01:16:00

Southern Baptist Convention our church gets four messengers. I'm going I'm looking for three more people

01:16:05

To join me will make this happen If that's you and you need any help in terms of travel coordination or even potentially a financial help

01:16:13

But that's the burden. Please reach out to the Center for Baptist Leadership at info at Center for Baptist leadership org

01:16:20

You can reach out to me directly on X if you can DM me or you know flag me so you can

01:16:25

DM me for Whatever reason you can't reach me but come to vote for a conservative president come to ratify the law

01:16:32

Amendment come to hold our entities accountable for their mission drift within the

01:16:37

Southern Baptist Convention and come now So that we can leave Indy in a much better direction than we've been heading so far