Troubling Thoughts from Dr. Jeffress About ISIS, Then Back to Reviewing Wael Ibrahim

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December 21, 2015

We did a jumbo edition (90 minutes), starting off listening to the comments of Dr. Jeffress from First Baptist Dallas from a few weeks ago (linked below). Let's say I was...troubled. Then we went back to my response to Wael Ibrahim focusing upon the New Testament's testimony to the deity of the Lord Jesus.

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00:33: Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line I guess we are only partially live today I'm not sure what that means is that what does it mean to be partially you know that's almost
00:42: Armenian because you're like sort of Dead, but not really but sort of live, but not really either.
00:47: I'm not sure how that works, but What's that I'm Prevenient webcasting okay
00:55: All right well Yet if you're not able to see Some people are going to rejoice that you can't see because I'm wearing one of my coogies today
01:08: But we will be recording and posting this and most people watch on the on the
01:14: You know once we post it and stuff like that so but you may be listening live
01:19: And that's that used to be how that was all the time I didn't have to look over here my neck wasn't stiff on one side
01:28: You know I could I could wear whatever I wanted to wear I could you know pick my nose if I wanted to it.
01:34: Just it didn't it. Did you know it didn't matter I? Didn't have to comb my beard nothing so But then the guy across the window decided hey, let's put camera in there.
01:47: You know and Actually, I think I'm the one that did that but but then I only recorded you were the first to do the camera
01:53: Yeah, but then I only record sections of it to post on YouTube, and then you're like well Hey, let's let's like do the whole thing and then let's like paint everything and then it's you know okay?
02:03: And so here we are but anyway welcome to the program I'm going to start off Well, I don't know why
02:12: I do this it would be so much easier if I didn't do things like this to be perfectly honest with you but the troublemaker in Texas Directed me to something that I saw this morning and I Think this presidential election thing goes way way way way way too long.
02:36: It just In most other countries presidential elections are you know a couple months?
02:44: not two years And and this one seems like it's been about three years so far already, and we still have 11 months to go and I'm tired of it.
02:58: I'm really really tired of it and Anyway, I saw the beginning of that this was actually in a church service in a very large well -known
03:11: Southern Baptist Church Pastor Jeffries is a well -known fellow.
03:16: He's on Fox News all the time Somehow he's become an expert on Islam. I'm not sure how that happened.
03:22: I'm not sure what his his study in Islam actually is um dr.
03:29: Robert Jeffries Down there and he's in Texas isn't he thought he was in Texas.
03:36: I'm pretty sure it's in Texas And By the way people in Twitter I can't help you
03:46: I'm a little busy right now I've kept you what what about this like I don't know nothing
03:51: I can do about about the problems All we've got an audio link and we'll just record the rest and get it posted when we when we can but before his sermon recently
04:03: He had some comments to make My concern is once again
04:12: Being consistent and being consistently Christian and Sometimes being
04:20: Consistently Christian isn't the same thing as being consistently fill in political party fill in political position
04:31: Who would have thunk and you know if We all the time see video from Islamic Imams around the world frequently in Arabic been translated by memory
04:52: TV or something And we show them and it's like oh, can you believe this?
04:57: You know, I've played where you know Sunni imams are praying that Shiites would get cancer and die and we're just like oh, it's unbelievable and Remember that one
05:09: Ethiopian or that Nigerian imam forget which one it was You know just just giddy absolutely giddy with excitement
05:20: At finding a hadith that will allow him to kill women and children as long as they're coffers
05:26: You know and and we pointed out that he sort of skipped the other Hadith that were right around it.
05:32: But anyway, that's another story I would imagine this stuff like this gets translated and played in the
05:41: Middle East and It's not the pastor. Jeffers isn't saying some true things
05:47: It's whether you have balance in the true things that you say that's
05:53: Where the problem comes up and I'm not making any friends. I know I'm not making any friends I realize this but we are going to be continuing our response to whale
06:04: Ibrahim and I Don't know Fault me if you will, but if I'm going to honestly say to what ale you need to be
06:15: Consistent in the sources you use what you say about Christianity I've sort of got to do the same thing and If what ale has relied upon bad sources on his side resulting in misrepresentations of what we believe
06:32: Well, if we've got folks on our side, then we can't sit there and go. Mm -hmm. Can't say anything about that No, we we need to be we need to be consistent.
06:42: So I'm just troubled that this
06:48: I just Okay, I'm old -fashioned I think that the pulpit is
06:57: An important place and it should be guarded It should be honored. It should be respected.
07:03: I think God meets with us in a special way when we're gathered together to to worship him and we come with expectant hearts and we desire to Hear the
07:15: Word of God and we we actually pray the Spirit of God will come and open our hearts and our minds and and that we'll have an encounter with God in that sense and So I'm I'm old -fashioned and I have a problem
07:33: With well all sorts of things that happen in churches. I mean at least at least guys wearing a tie, you know that's
07:43: These days I'll give him credit for that In fact, he honestly looks like he could given the background and stuff looks like he's on the stage at one of the
07:52: Republican Debates really does, you know, it's the red power tie the whole whole nine yards and in comparison to The stuff
08:04: I've seen this week that that Hillsong thing. Did you see that the Hillsong silent night thing?
08:09: Did you see that where they did it like burlesque like jazz from the Chicago from the
08:15: Chicago era with the 1920s short dresses and the whole nine yards Yeah, how could you have not seen that it flooded my
08:23: Facebook feed. I mean it was everywhere and Then then the tattoo sermon
08:31: You saw that okay Just like I What could possess anyone well the term possessed may not be the right term to use there.
08:44: Um, Yeah Wow, so This ain't that bad but again, the point is that once people start hooting and hollering and clapping at the
09:06: Citation of Donald Trump in a service and I Would there be anyone who would actually argue with me if I said
09:19: I don't have the slightest reason to believe Donald Trump is a Christian Really but Then the idea of People just About killing people
09:39: Now it's terrible what Isis does Isis needs to be stopped militarily I and bombing is a part of that But it's a terrible
09:48: Horrible part of that that results in Non -isis people men women and children dying
09:58: I Don't applaud any of that. I mourn over that. I mourn when that happens.
10:05: I think that's a Christian thing to do Silly me Odd thing right these days when so many people are just to the nuke until they glow level of rhetoric and insensitivity
10:23: But anyway, all right here it is let's um Let's let's let's listen to listen before I begin this morning.
10:33: I feel like I need to address The tragedy we all witnessed this weekend in Paris What should be our response to that tragedy certainly as Christians?
10:46: We should be praying for the victims and the victims families Psalm 34 says the
10:52: Lord by the way just in passing. I Really? I don't understand the use the word tragedy of things like this.
11:00: It's not a tragedy is when a bridge collapses You know, this was just an outbreak of human evil
11:11: It's not a tragedy. I mean Not in that sense not not in any accurate sense
11:17: But we do use the term sometimes just it just flies in there and we're not really thinking what we're saying close
11:24: To those who are brokenhearted But I believe that as Christians we need to do more than simply pray.
11:32: I Believe it is time for us to lay aside political correctness and Identify the belief system that is responsible for these horrific acts and that is the evil evil religion of Radical Islam that is the belief system that inspired this tragedy and make no mistake about it
11:57: Islam is just not another way to approach God Now, let me just stop again
12:06: First he says radical Islam, but then he drops it I'm very very concerned.
12:16: In fact, I was yesterday I did a long study ride and Finished one book
12:23: Jesus and the jihadis can't recommend it Interesting but can't recommend it
12:31: Read all of Isis refuted, which is very interesting and Began the great theft
12:42: The last two are written by Muslims to Muslims in refutation of the carriage ites which is the standard identification of the theology of Isis by those who oppose
12:56: Isis and It was
13:04: Very interesting To hear the argumentation Especially of refuting
13:10: Isis is pretty short. You can get it. I think fairly cheaply on Kindle. It's available on Amazon and Again The issue comes back to whose sources and things like that, but it was fascinating to read
13:26: It was it was nice to finally read something where you know, people are always saying well, where are the
13:32: Muslims protesting as well? Okay, there you go. There it is. Oh, and by the way, I appreciate the fact it was someone on Twitter I made a reference last week sometime
13:42: And someone was kind enough to send me links to a couple of these books Lo and behold, you know for all the weird stuff that comes across across Twitter Once a while, we've got some good things that are that come through as well
13:54: Um, but again it is
14:00: Necessary and I guess maybe I'm the only one sensitive this I don't know But because I debate
14:07: Roman Catholics because I debate Muslims Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses One -nosed
14:13: Pentecostals atheists secularists, etc, etc, etc because of that I I Feel the need to be
14:26: Consistent and to recognize, you know, if I use this argument against this group this group over here
14:32: He's gonna use a counter argument that will show me to be inconsistent. I'm always balancing that in my mind and I know
14:42: I do not want to be held accountable For what
14:48: Popes did in the 11th century And I've thought through why
14:55: I'm not accountable for what Popes did in the 11th century and I'm consistent in saying why I'm not accountable for that and so Silly me.
15:05: I figure we have to extend the same grace to other people well, once you drop the
15:12: Monikers once you drop the extreme and just make it all of Islam.
15:17: You're no longer making those distinctions Now he's gonna bring up something here and I'm gonna I'm gonna preemptively address it.
15:26: He's going to say Islam is satanic It's inspired by Satan now similar to the video that I posted yesterday on whether Christians and Muslims worship the same
15:45: God and The answer that question is yes, and no depending on what level you're seeking to answer that question at And What did you say rich we got someone who said
15:57: I'm just trying to be controversial No, just trying to be accurate Just trying to you know, really actually cover the question
16:06: Anyway Similar similar to that is This question because anything
16:18: That opposes Christ and his kingdom Can accurately be described as satanic?
16:25: right, I Mean if Jesus Christ is Lord of all anything that opposes his kingdom opposes his kingship is
16:33: Antichrist so secularism, I think personally is a significantly more dangerous
16:42: Satanic Religion Then Islam why
16:51: Because as I've said many times before if Islam ever gets to the point where it begins to control in a unified fashion any major portion of territory
17:01: The Muslims will turn on each other They'll turn on each other The internal divisions are too deep too long
17:13: They'll turn on each other the idea of some worldwide caliphate sorry
17:19: When there was a major caliphate it was not based upon the kind of Wahhabi Salafi Islam that Isis is a variant of it wasn't couldn't have been
17:36: So I Really really think we should be significantly more concerned
17:43: About the fact that Linus cannot quote the Christmas story in Kentucky Doesn't that tell you that the secularists are much closer
17:55: Than any of the Muslims are oh, yeah the Muslims they they're doing stuff like San Bernardino something that violent you bet
18:04: Maybe maybe sometime I'll have to find a documentary or something on The Stasi prison in East Germany.
18:11: Maybe that's what I need to do I've walked the halls of the
18:18: Stasi prison in East Germany former East Germany and I know what that kind of communistic secularism can do and You know you can have a gun battle with a bunch of jihadis
18:42: But once the state Uses its power think of the power that the
18:47: United States government has to observe its citizens today If they really wanted to use it in its totality
18:55: Just think how they could observe every aspect of your life and again. Yeah, I'm what if I'm read it 1984
19:02: Okay Anyway, I've gone going beyond where I need to go here the point being
19:10: I consider Secular humanism and the the rise of that Socialist communist secular humanism as far more of a danger
19:22: Than then Islam on a different level, but still and So That's satanic any
19:37: Religious system or doctrine that Fundamentally denies the lordship of Jesus Christ is quote -unquote satanic, but obviously
19:46: That term satanic carries this huge Massive amount of emotional
19:55: Baggage with it not just in the sense of opposing Christ, but you know devils and and Demons forcing people to do things and stuff like that Simple pagan apathy is satanic so From the
20:16: Muslim perspective as I mentioned the video yesterday going into excess
20:24: Taglu me VD Nikon Excess Extravagance going beyond the bounds
20:35: VD Nikon in your religion from their perspective Is that satanic?
20:42: Oh, yeah, it would be So I am NOT offended.
20:47: In fact, I would think a Muslim would be consistent To say that to fundamentally violate
20:55: What they believe is the central truth that God has revealed to everybody through every prophet
21:01: What what holds all the prophets together is La ilaha illallah, there is one
21:06: God worthy of worship That's what all the prophets came together that all of them That was their message no matter what people group they were sent to that was their message and from their perspective
21:17: Well from the perspective of the believing I think consistent Muslim at that point The doctrine the
21:24: Trinity is a violation of that and therefore be considered satanic. That's not the same thing as saying that if a if you identify a secular humanist
21:40: Perspective as opposing Christ at the same thing as Anton LaVey or even more serious
21:46: Satanists sacrificing animals or something so obviously there has to be a recognition of different categories of Openness in Rebellion and how much knowledge you have and all these things are relevant to the final judgment and things like that so We have to be able to make a distinction
22:12: We have to be able to make a distinction between the
22:18: Muslim Who becomes militarized and Uses religion as a basis of sex slaves and Rape and pillaging and beheading and all the other insanity and satanic evil of Isis and The most of it says all of that is absolutely 1 ,000 % opposed to anything that we should ever do in the name of God and Is the best neighbor you've ever had if you can't make a distinction to yes as Christians We go they both need to hear about Jesus and I sort of wonder if some of you folks really believe that Does it seem some of you?
23:01: Yeah, the nice next -door neighbor. He needs to hear about Jesus, but that guy just He needs a hellfire missile right now.
23:07: No, that's you know, let's not worry about the gospel at that point It's there. They've been given over I guess at that point
23:14: I'm not sure what would have happened to that Apostle Paul dude if some people were in charge But anyway, we have to be able to make those distinctions
23:24: Just just have to be able to do it. Oh, I don't like that. No. No. No. Thank you very much
23:29: That's we need to bring that one back down because it looks like it's hanging from the ceiling or something
23:34: We raised it up to be able to see Jeff. Jeff's not here. So No That's way too much head
23:42: Way too much forehead glowing in in the thing. Um Gotta be able to make those distinctions or We can't expect people to make the distinctions.
23:53: We need them to make to accurately engage with us. So Sort of getting ahead of what he's saying here
23:59: Islam is a false religion and it is inspired by Satan himself who
24:05: Jesus said came to steal kill and destroy and This weekend we saw the fruit of Satan's destruction in the acts of these terrorists
24:18: It is impossible to separate What these eight suicide bombers did?
24:25: From their faith their religion that inspired them to do this
24:31: These terrorists were not acting in opposition to the teaching of Islam They were acting according to the teaching of Islam and now notice no distinction here
24:47: It would be nice it would say according to the teaching of their particular
24:54: Understanding of Islam of militarized Wahhabism or the Salafis or and even then there are
25:01: Salafis that oppose this so but no distinctions being made it's just you know, so Let's let's go back in time
25:11: Let's put the the shoe on the other foot again got to do it got to do I know you don't like to do it, but got to do it let's go back and Let's go back to the the crusade and I didn't get the date.
25:27: I'm just off top my head here one of the Crusades One of the problems with the
25:34: Crusades was it was not Really easy to transport an army from Europe all the way to the
25:41: Middle East. That's a long walk long walk with lots of stuff in the way and So the best way to get there was was by by ship but Not everybody has a bunch of ships.
25:55: You got a got to pay money and so one of the major Crusades Booked passage
26:07: Got the ships they needed but the people that gave them the ship said, you know, we've been having some problems with Constantinople We've never some problems
26:17: Constantinople and So we'll tell you what well we'll give you passage but only
26:26: If you sort of make a stop off at Constantinople they haven't been working with us the way they need to and and so Well, we'll take your armies over there.
26:39: But what you need to do is you need to sack Constantinople in the process Now this is one of the dumbest things that's ever happened in history
26:48: Because Constantinople was the wall it was it was the fortress
26:53: That was keeping Islam from coming into Europe, but money's money
27:03: Transportation's transportation and so the
27:08: Crusaders with their crosses on their shields hung a left and attacked
27:14: Constantinople and Historians will tell you that Constantinople never
27:22: Recovered from this and that's one of the main reasons they fell to the Seljuk Turks in the middle of the 15th century which led to the great crisis at the time of the
27:30: Reformation because now that Muslims were heading toward Vienna there at the gates of Vienna and and It looked like they were gonna march right across Europe do what they hadn't been able to do back in the 8th century.
27:45: So Let's let's put let's go back there And I just want how many of Those of you who just want to paint all the
27:55: Muslims together How many of you want to take? responsibility for the destruction of Constantinople the lives that were lost the the fundamental weakening of the fabric of Culture in that area that ended up resulting in many more lives being lost in years afterwards um
28:20: Christian that was Christianity, right? That was Christianity. So you'll you'll take responsibility.
28:25: You'll take responsibility for the Inquisition's all the Crusades The Inquisition's against the
28:32: Waldensians and the Piedmont Valley that was all Christianity, right? Because we can't make distinctions.
28:39: I Mean, you know if you've ever said well, that was that was Roman Catholicism. That was the papacy and and it doesn't matter
28:46: That from the world's perspective that was just Christianity, right? So if you've if if the only brush you've got is this wide
28:57: It's it's hard to really Communicate with a brush that wide. All you can just sort of do is do entire walls.
29:04: It's sort of hard to do detail Along those lines. That's my problem here is The detail gets lost in in the process
29:14: Illustrate that for you compare Islam to Christianity as Christians we follow the
29:21: Bible we follow the new well except for Roman Catholics who deny solo scriptura
29:28: But are they part of Christianity? I don't know. I'm not sure what Dr.
29:34: Jeffers position on that is I've not heard him address that But we need to make a distinction there, right?
29:42: That's too much specifically Yeah, we follow the New Testament specifically,
29:48: I wonder what that means I mean certainly the
29:54: New Testament is The highest authority in the sense of it is it gives us fulfillment of Old Testament pastors and go but the
30:03: New Testament teaches that all Scripture is the honest us which When Paul wrote that to Timothy The New Testament still being written so that included and in fact was first and foremost about The Tanakh the
30:20: Torah and the Nevi 'im the Ketubim the the law Prophets the writings that's what we call the
30:26: Old Covenant the Old Testament scriptures, right? Odd way of putting it you cannot find a verse anywhere in the
30:35: New Testament that commands us to kill Unbelievers Well a lot of folks would like to say
30:46: That he has artificially limited things by ignoring the
30:51: Old Testament because you've got the Amorites and the Canaanites and all that kind of stuff going on and Go away
31:08: There is evidently My computer really wants to go to El Capitan. You cannot it would destroy a bunch of my programs go away anyways,
31:21: I realize that those texts in the Old Testament are troubling to people but Again, I've listened to enough sharp
31:33: Muslim apologists who will point to a few texts in the New Testament like the one where Jesus tells a parable and he seems to be referring to himself and toward the end.
31:47: He says now bring those men before me who refused to have me rule over them and kill them before me in my sight and We're we're talking about judgment
32:00: Bunch of stuff the book of Revelation about stuff like that so and then when it says command them to kill others
32:14: Yeah Seems like there's texts like that and surah 9 and elsewhere But as we've pointed out there are people who say no this had a particular fulfillment a particular place
32:28: But I guess they're not Muslims See again, if you're using a paintbrush, that's this big.
32:34: It's really hard to be accurate You know in what you're doing that's really a problem
32:42: But the Quran the book of Muslims is laced with verse after verse that says
32:49: Kill the infidels that's people like you and me over and over again 35 different sword verses in the
32:57: Quran commanding violence and when people like Isis Utilize those texts they truly believe that they have
33:10: God's Approval for what they are saying and what they are doing.
33:15: No question about it But if you do not tell people That at least a major portion
33:25: I mean if you want to dispute the majority thing fine at least a major portion and certainly in United States a majority
33:35: Do not read the text that way the same way you don't read your Old Testament to mean that you should kill unbelievers
33:43: Are you being fair? Or are you just helping the other side? by not
33:49: Being consistent and in -depth and what you're saying Think about it think about it
33:57: Jesus is the founder of our faith. He is known as the
34:03: Prince of Peace He didn't kill anyone Muhammad the founder of Islam was a prince of war.
34:10: He slaughtered thousands at one time alone He beheaded 600 Jews who wouldn't follow him into battle
34:19: That is a huge contrast. That is a huge contrast that every Muslim needs to hear no question about it
34:28: The reality is that Muhammad was a man of war And If you are going to say if you're gonna deny what
34:40: Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is the Son of God and that in olden days
34:46: God spoke to us by Prophets and Apostles, but now in these last days he spoke to us by his son once you deny that and Make Muhammad your ultimate goal.
34:58: You are stepping backwards Away from God's highest that's all there is to it that is as one of the reasons why the ignorance of the writer of the
35:09: Quran is such a major issue and It has such a horrific impact
35:16: Upon what has happened in the years since Muhammad? No question about it
35:22: But once again, if you know Islam, then you know that there are those
35:28: Muslims, you know One of the things that bothers me about this is That Isis from what
35:36: I've read is Killing any and all Sufis now
35:44: Sufism is not like the Sunnis or the Shias It's not
35:51: Sufism is like You have charismatic Baptists or charismatic
35:57: Episcopalians or the term charismatic Can I guess identify sort of a
36:05: Phenomenal type thing but it's more of a bent. It's more of a spiritual Orientation I guess to be the term
36:14: Well, that's what Sufism is. There are our Sufi Shia and Sufi Sunni and it
36:20: Sufism Is seen in a lot of different ways, but it's more of a of a spiritual
36:29: Emphasis Man, if you show yourself to have almost any Sufi sympathies Isis will kill you so what's it like to be a
36:40: Sufi influenced Muslim who Certainly recognizes you're in grave danger from Muslims like Isis But if you listen to this guy
36:52: You're not gonna think the other side has anything for you either because they're not gonna listen to a word You have to say if you're a
36:59: Muslim Who has no interest does does not believe that surah 9 commands you to kill
37:06: Christians today that you recognize that There's such thing as Islamic law and that for example if you go into a country if you obtain a visa if you obtain citizenship, these are binding contracts and that Islamic law says you cannot engage in subversive activities in a nation where you have a binding contract
37:29: All right You believe that and you believe that surah 9? only had its fulfillment at a particular point in time in history and You're influenced by Sufism you think he's gonna you think he's gonna be open
37:49: To a dialogue with you because he's painting you as a terrorist. You're just a secret terrorist
37:55: He's not even not even allowing for the possibility you exist Who's someone where's what where is someone gonna go if they want to talk to a
38:04: Christian? They're not gonna go the people who are painting with the brushes. They're this broad They're gonna actually maybe if they even can look maybe look for a
38:15: Christian who's a little more careful in these things maybe possibly
38:22: Thus the founder of our faith said love your enemies Muhammad the founder of Islam said kill your enemies amputate their limbs
38:33: The reason I am bringing this up is ladies and gentlemen. It is absolutely impossible to defeat an enemy you are unwilling to identify and that's why
38:53: So what is to be our response as Christians to this massacre in Paris There's a lot of confusion among Christians on this topic because many
39:04: Christians confuse their individual responsibilities as Christians and with government's responsibility as a government as individual
39:16: Christians We are called upon to love to forgive to pray to share the gospel that is our individual responsibility
39:26: But government has a different God -given responsibility Government is never called upon to forgive
39:36: Government is never called upon to turn the other cheek the responsibility of Government according to the
39:44: Word of God is to protect its citizens uh Really hmm, you know, there's there's been a lot written about Christianity and government a lot of different viewpoints taken by people.
40:02: I'm not even gonna get there I'm not even gonna touch that one today, but I'm really concerned when
40:12: The Christian faith and the Constitution end up getting sort of mixed together and And Yeah, you know
40:23: The government is never called to forgive So the government will never be influenced by Christian principles
40:32: Hmm So much So much there that just makes me very very uneasy
40:41: One reason and one way that government protects its citizens is by Securing the borders it is government's
40:51: Responsibilities to secure the borders and let's just go ahead and say this and make it clear
40:58: Having secure borders is not Anti -christian as some people would lead you to believe did you know that borders are
41:07: God's idea? God doesn't mean for us to live all as one people and one nation all
41:13: Under the same auspice and without any borders around the world. That is not
41:18: God's plan Acts 17 26 says it is God himself who established the boundaries
41:26: The borders in which people should live that was God's idea and it's government's
41:32: Responsibility to secure our border in order to protect us. Not only that it is government's responsibility to punish
41:42: Evildoers Romans 13 says God has empowered the government the military to bring wrath against those who practice evil
41:54: You may not agree with everything that Donald Trump says But Donald Trump was absolutely correct
42:01: Thursday night when he said it is time to start Bombing the you -know -what out of Isis.
42:07: That is a biblical response Now I want to say this
42:16: I want to say this Ladies and gentlemen if We do not confront and defeat the evil of radical
42:28: Islam The evil of radical Islam is going to confront and defeat us
42:35: It is time for our government to step up and do whatever is necessary Militarily to rid this world of the cancer called radical
42:46: Islam It is time for us to act Well, at least a few people didn't stand up.
43:05: I suppose that's good I'm sorry, that just gives me the creeps
43:11: It really really really gives me the creeps for so many reasons
43:18: Government is not my savior never will be I trust this government as far as I could throw it and It is painfully obvious to me
43:29: That any authority we give to this government to act in religious matters will be used first and foremost against Christians Not anybody else.
43:40: If you don't see that I just think you're blinder than a bat. That's actually an echolocation, but anyways
43:49: It's True yeah, I know I'm I can guarantee you you're never gonna hear me quoting
43:57: Donald Trump from the pulpit of any church in any context and I Am going to be very very concerned when
44:10: People are standing up cheering Um Any any lengths?
44:17: I mean I've heard I've seen people nuke them Nuclear weapons. Do you can you imagine
44:22: I mean? It's not it's not just Isis people in the lands where Isis controls.
44:36: What about those folks? Yeah Tough, you know, it's sort of like Dresden during World War two.
44:42: Hey, you know a Lot of people died The people died
44:47: I guess this is just gonna happen again. Oh Well, anyway, there you go
44:59: Troubling very troubling to me. I have no earthly idea when we started I started forgot to look because we got delayed for one hour
45:13: Well, we'll see how far we get here because I didn't intend to spend that much time We may have to go a little bit farther just to find a break point
45:20: I'm just not even sure what the time is. So we're recording this. Anyways had technical issues 215 be one hour.
45:30: Okay All right. Well, we'll see I wanted to get back to responding to what l
45:36: Ibrahim we if you recall last time We had gotten to a point
45:43: And then I had I had skipped ahead To a audience question
45:55: Because as I as I said whale and I'm hoping whale will be listening to this or watching it
46:03: You you channeled your inner Akuma D dot which is not a good thing, by the way and In The process had said that if someone could show you where Jesus was called wonderful counselor mighty
46:22: God everlasting Father Prince of Peace, then you would be ready to be baptized and we went through and demonstrated that all those categories what those things refer to our
46:33: Fundamental descriptions of the position of Jesus Christ in the New Testament described by his Apostles We corrected your misunderstanding of what
46:42: Aviad in Hebrew would mean and that Colossians chapter 1 Hebrews chapter 1
46:48: John chapter 1 all would fulfill the requirements of Jesus being described as everlasting father not an identification of a person not denial the
47:00: Trinity, but his role as creator and I'm not gonna be so silly as to say
47:08: I'll you know Let's let's schedule your baptism because I don't believe baptism saves you and I believe that It has to be something where God has changed your heart and revealed the glory of Jesus Christ to you but but I would be a little slower in the future to make that kind of statement and Certainly, I would hope that now you recognize
47:29: That Whatever you do with Isaiah 9 6 you need to do a little more work on it.
47:34: Actually a lot more work on it To be able to explain to us who that is Who is?
47:41: The one described there in Isaiah 9 6 but so now we're going back to where we stopped in the presentation to jump up to Isaiah 9 and We'll continue from there.
47:54: So a little little out of order. I apologize, but Just the way that it works Will anyone understand this verse to mean that God is actually more than one person?
48:03: Okay. Now what where we were here is we're talking about the Shema Shema Yisrael Yahweh Elohim new Yahweh aside and As I said to get us sort of into the context now it is not the purpose of the
48:18: Shema at that point in history To Reveal what would not happen in history for another 1400 years, like I said last time a fundamental revelation of the doctrine of Trinity Incarnation of the
48:40: Son Outpouring of the Holy Spirit that's still 1400 years in the future.
48:46: So then we go to 1st Corinthians chapter 8 and And Paul is seemingly drawing from something that the
48:56: Christians already understood and there he tells people that Not all men have the knowledge that we have because of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ There are people who think that there are
49:13: You know that eating meat sacrifice to idols can't do that because you know, they came out of idolatry
49:18: They came out of worshiping those idols and and Paul is explaining the fact there really isn't an idol in the world
49:26: They're not true deities are not true gods, etc, etc and So In the process
49:38: Paul draws from a a previous previously understood
49:48: Christian almost creed. I'm gonna go ahead and show it to you just so we can we can see it here
49:54: Let me go over to You have to drop that down for a second accordance
50:02: All right, you should have accordance now and I'm going to blow this up a little bit so we can see it notice
50:13: It's almost big enough to see even down there Uh Yet for us so so so back here in verse first first Corinthians 8 5 for even if there are so -called gods whether in heaven or on earth as indeed there are many gods many more
50:26: Lords like dominoes Means that are named that are called so -called gods
50:36: So there are many so -called gods in heaven and earth many gods many Lords but for us
50:43: There is but one God the Father from whom are all things and we exist for him and one
50:49: Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things and we exist through him now especially what ale
50:56: I do this for you because You were introduced as a student of biblical Hebrew. And if you're a student of biblical
51:06: Hebrew, go ahead and take that down Then you know That the
51:15: Greek Translation of The Old Testament that has so much relevance to Especially the
51:27: New Testament because it was the Bible of the early church Especially once you got out of Israel Into the
51:37: Roman world. What was the lingua franca of the day? Thanks to Alexander the Great coin a
51:42: Greek What is the Greek? version of the
51:48: Old Testament but the Greek Septuagint and so here is the Shema and Go ahead and bring it up.
51:58: Here is the Shema Shema Israel Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh echad right, but What is that in?
52:12: the Greek Septuagint Well a kuwait Israel courios hot they are same own courios heist estin
52:23: There's the Greek Septuagint rendering of Deuteronomy 6 4 here
52:29: Israel Courios hot they are same own the courios is being used in the place of the tetragrammaton right here
52:37: The courios no, go ahead and leave it up courios hot they are same own. The Lord is our
52:43: God courios heist estin becomes Yahweh is one courios is the rendering of the tetragrammaton.
52:54: It's not a translation as you know But it is the term that is utilized here.
53:00: So we have three important terms courios the oz and heist is translating echad
53:09: All right. Now, let's go back to first Corinthians 8 6 Hmm here is heist
53:17: Here's the Oz Here's heist Here's courios
53:23: Same language Any Greek speaking
53:29: Jew Would immediately recognize
53:35: What's going on here Paul has taken the very language of the
53:42: Shema He's taken echad heist he's repeated it twice and he says there's heist they
53:52: Oz and then positively is the Greek grammatical term hapater there is one
54:01: God the Father from whom tap on top and Unto whom we are
54:11: But then he takes the very word that is used for the tetragrammaton uses heist again
54:18: But now it is Jesus Christ dia who through whom tap on top same tap on top and We and we repeated twice for him or through him
54:37: So Unto him for the father through him for the son. So Do you really believe?
54:46: Why l that the Apostle Paul? student of Gamaliel Hebrew of the
54:52: Hebrews Didn't know what the Shema was in Greek.
54:57: Of course he did He was some he was some Tarsus. It's Alicia. I mean he he spoke both
55:05: Hebrew and Greek fluently And he could quote the
55:11: Shema in both languages, so This is a as close as we're gonna get in this early material to a creedal statement probably pre -exists the
55:24: Apostle Paul and he's saying this is this we know this this is a basic revelation of who we are as Believers and he's taken the
55:34: Shema and he has expanded it in light of the historical reality the historical reality of The incarnation of the
55:44: Son and Now this is being written under the auspices Guidance of the
55:50: Holy Spirit sent by the Father and the Son when dwell the people who confess the name of Jesus Christ So when you say well, you know what if anyone read the
56:03: Shema Would you would you come up with more than one person? We're not claiming that you would You're 1 ,400 years premature
56:12: You're 1 ,400 years before That revelation is made
56:17: But remember what l? Sir a five third Almeida Tells those of us who are the island
56:26: Jill the people of the gospel to judge by what is contained the heat therein Here's our gospel.
56:33: It's always been our gospel. I can show you manuscripts of this very text
56:40: That were written For 375 years minimally prior to the birth of Your prophet did your prophet ever read these words?
57:05: Could you prove that he did? Well, you say he was illiterate. So no, okay Did your prophet have any?
57:13: First or secondhand knowledge of the contents of what was in these words, where did you get that evidence and So the argument hopefully you see how the argument
57:31: Doesn't carry any weight for us because it's anachronistic and then it misses
57:38: This evidence which I did not really get a feeling you're familiar with or feel the weight of That's why
57:45: I'm wanting to try to explain these things and hopefully it is I'm communicating it to you fairly clearly
57:52: No, because the verse states very plainly the Lord our God the
57:57: Lord is one simple and clear Not only that but Jesus Christ peace be upon him called it the most important of all commandments when one of the scribes came and asked him about what is the
58:11: The most important commandments of all he say hero Israel He repeated the word the words as they were revealed in Deuteronomy 6 4 hero
58:21: Israel the Lord our God The Lord is one not only that but when the scribe confirmed
58:26: Confirmed that this is the truth that really God is one Jesus told him you are not far from the kingdom of heaven now again
58:34: We agree But what is that oneness of? As we said last time is that a oneness
58:42: Ontologically speaking we would say yes, there is only one true God. Is it a oneness of personhood?
58:50: No, it's not and You you may assume it But that's the whole point in the debate over what our sources are
59:01: The New Testament that you're quoting from The very gospel that you just see in the background there, so you've got mark 1228 in the background well
59:14: That's really hard to do right there yeah see 1228 that's
59:20: Really something. I don't practice very much Nor would I ever have any reason to Yeah, yeah, both fingers on the nose chewing up.
59:28: Anyway mark 1228 Go to mark chapter 14
59:36: Read Jesus's appearance before the high priest and when the high priest abjures him
59:42: Are you the Christ the son of the Blessed One now from your perspective? He would never say with the Son of God, right?
59:49: Allah has no son and Jesus is a prophet would never claim to be the Son of God, but he did over and over again and There before the high priest, so if you're gonna quote from mark 12
01:00:03: Then you have to accept what mark 14 says, right? And so in mark 14
01:00:09: Jesus's response is to quote from two key texts He quotes from Psalm 110 1 the
01:00:21: Lord said to my Lord sit on my right hand so I make that an enemy's a footstool for thy feet and Any quotes from Daniel Daniel chapter 7 the
01:00:31: Son of Man passage? the Son of Man appears for the Ancient of Days and And he's worshipped by his followers he puts the two together
01:00:45: So that there is No question on the part of the Jews of exactly what he means
01:00:52: He is the son of the Blessed One in the fullest sense just as John puts it
01:00:58: We have a law by that law He had to die because he made himself out to be the Son of God the Son of God in the unique way not sons by the tons
01:01:07: Uniquely a Heavenly figure the high priest tears his robe and Says what further need of witnesses do we have you've heard the blasphemy yourself?
01:01:19: What is your decision and they judged him to be worthy of death for what blasphemy? So if you're gonna quote mark 12
01:01:29: Go just a couple chapters later. And if you want me to read a
01:01:42: Text in surah 6 That you believe sheds light on surah 5 and to treat the
01:01:53: Quran as a whole Then you can't just quote one text and then ignore what comes by the same author just a few pages later you've got to look at the whole thing and so was mark trying to communicate to us a
01:02:12: Unitarianism of person Like you're promoting not at all
01:02:18: Not at all Important to recognize So the first step my brothers and sisters
01:02:26: Muslims and Christians if you wanted to get to heaven, that's the first and foremost Commandment is to believe that God is absolutely
01:02:35: One not only that but God is described in the Bible that he is the father The only true
01:02:41: God is father So from where did you get the concept that Jesus also God that okay now
01:02:49: You're you're quoting a text and Well again,
01:02:58: I really made an effort and May have failed in places
01:03:07: Haven't had too much criticism on this level But I really made an effort in writing my book on the Quran which is on its way to you, by the way
01:03:15: Don't know how long it'll take you are on the other side of the planet. Yeah, Rich is going
01:03:21: He's he's flapping his wings as fast again with him And I hope you'll read it but I really made an effort in Writing my book on the
01:03:33: Quran when talking about sections of you know, maybe just an ayah or a section of ayat
01:03:43: To read the context to try to determine the flow it's not always easy to do Yeah, there are some places in the
01:03:49: Bible like that But vast majority the places the Bible are a whole lot easier to contextualize historically and so on so forth than the
01:03:55: Quran is That's just a fact that I think most Muslim scholars have admitted as well It's just a part of the very nature of the of the text itself and it's also so much shorter
01:04:05: But I tried to put them in context and see what the flow is and When you quote
01:04:12: John 17 3, I'm sorry, but you're you're making a category error and you're missing the context
01:04:22: Okay, let's look at it This is oh, I'm sorry
01:04:29: Got it got to find a way to do this someday where That's easier for me
01:04:35: I guess but it sure would be nice if we could do it. Anyway, this is life eternal in order that They may know you tan man on a lathe and on the on the only true guy
01:04:51: God Kai Han a pest I lost a soon
01:04:57: Christ on and the one you sent Jesus Christ now, please note to have eternal life the object of this gnosis is
01:05:09: Is Multiform the one that Jesus is addressing and The one he's sent
01:05:19: Jesus Christ. Now what you're trying to say is that Since he says tan man on a lathe and on what's that saying is that Jesus is not deity
01:05:30: That the father exhausts the category of God That's what you want
01:05:37: Jesus to be saying here now Let me point out two things.
01:05:44: Number one if Jesus is the incarnate Son of God and If we are not saying there's two gods
01:05:56: If you're saying there is only one being that is God Would Jesus address the father as anything other than the only true
01:06:07: God? Are there any other two gods? Because you say well, yeah, Jesus. No. No, he's not another true
01:06:13: God Well, the spirit no, not another true God they all share that one name
01:06:18: Yahweh So what other terminology would Jesus use? See you're you're assuming
01:06:27: What you're trying to prove? And that's a problem That's circular reasoning and it's not dealing with the text the way it needs to be dealt with.
01:06:37: Alright, that's first thing but secondly, there's no way to read that text in that way if you just read like the next sentence
01:06:48: Or two Because says I glorified you upon the earth
01:06:55: Having perfected or accomplished or completed the work which you gave to me in order that I might do it
01:07:02: Verse 5 and now And notice Jesus remember it was it was a multi
01:07:11: Multiple Persons are the ones we need to know to have eternal life the father and the son and So the son says
01:07:20: I glorified you By completing the work that was given to me and now that's why noon is here
01:07:32: Because it's playing off of what we had in verse 4 and now You glorify me
01:07:40: You see that I glorified you Now knew you glorify me father and then notice what he says para say alto tay doc say hey icon with the glory
01:08:03: Which I had para say alto At your side in your presence with you when
01:08:13: Pra to tan cos mon. I nigh para so the glory which
01:08:18: I had in your presence before the world Was or the world began?
01:08:27: Glorify me together with yourself So he's not saying detract from your glory in any way
01:08:37: Glorify me together with yourself with the glory which I had in your presence with you before the world was
01:08:48: Now clearly this is one person speaking to another person
01:08:53: This is one of the clearest evidences of the errors of oneness Pentecostal ism and oneness teaching
01:09:02: Jesus is Asking to be glorified. It's actually in the imperative, but it would be a there's categories of the imperative that are not just command but Are appropriate in prayer for example glorify me father together with yourself the glory
01:09:22: He wants the father to be glorified. He has done that but now the son is to be glorified with the glory which he had
01:09:33: Now when Jesus walked through the streets of Jerusalem, he didn't glow at night You know despite the silly
01:09:43: Pictures and stuff of Jesus sort of glowing and having halos and all that kind of stuff
01:09:50: Didn't happen it did once amount of transfiguration in the presence of the father
01:09:59: Jesus's true radiance was seen But it was inappropriate for the fulfillment of his mission
01:10:07: For the glory of the Son to be seen and so it was veiled
01:10:15: But he had glory in the presence of the father before the world was what ale
01:10:22: Could your Jesus ever say these words, you know, you could never say father in this way because a
01:10:34: Lot does not have a son this whole 17th chapter You simply have to dismiss it as innovation you have to Now, I don't know what you believe about how surah 7 month to 7 is fulfilled.
01:10:52: I Don't know what you believe about how Muhammad is found in our scriptures but if you've ever presented the idea that the parakletas in John 14 and 16 is
01:11:08: Fulfilled in Muhammad you don't have these lightest Historical consistent grounds to deny that John 17 represents what
01:11:18: Jesus said if you believe John 16 Represents what Jesus said no way
01:11:25: Can't get around it. So when you quote John 17 3
01:11:33: Consistency and honesty would demand that you have a clear
01:11:39: Contextual fair rebuttal of John 17 5 and I think it's
01:11:47: Painfully obvious in light of John 17 5 that you're reading of John 17 3 is Missing the whole point
01:11:53: It's missing the whole point. You're really saying that John 17 3
01:11:58: Jesus is denying his deity That he then asserts in verse 5.
01:12:07: So again, I I know it's very very common for Unitarians as a whole To quote
01:12:12: John chapter 17 verse 3 But I'll be honest.
01:12:17: I've never heard a one of them. I'm sure there's one someplace hiding in a corner of YouTube, you know
01:12:23: But I've never heard of one of them Who then? Gave a meaningful interpretation
01:12:31: Contextual grammatical whatever a verse 5 which is you know almost same breath and Vitally important understand
01:12:40: Holy Spirit is also God and all of them not three separate gods, but one
01:12:45: How did you get this understanding from where? Because we believe everything the
01:12:50: New Testament teaches it teaches us. There is only one true God It gives us three persons who communicate with one another the
01:12:57: Father and the Son send the Spirit the Son speaks to the Father speaks of the Spirit The Spirit testifies of the
01:13:03: Son They are clearly distinguished from one another and yet The Father is identified as Yahweh Jesus is identified as Yahweh The Spirit is the
01:13:18: Spirit of Yahweh That's where we got it from from believing everything in all scripture and what ale the author of the
01:13:28: Quran did not know our scriptures Did not know them there is not a single reference anywhere in the
01:13:43: Quran That cannot be explained on the basis of having heard oral stories.
01:13:51: In fact That is the best explanation for the variations in Like the variations and the telling of the story of Sodom what happened with lot?
01:14:04: There is no Direct Interaction on the part of the author of the
01:14:09: Quran with the text of the Old and New Testaments. And in fact, it seems absolutely positively obvious to me that the author of the
01:14:19: Quran Had no idea what was in first Corinthians 8
01:14:26: John chapter 17 any of those texts No idea at all, that's why there's no interaction no knowledge
01:14:37: At all, so we came to this because we believe everything that is in our scriptures
01:14:44: Not just parts of it We believe all of it yours and and our
01:14:50: New Testament is immersed in The fabric of the
01:14:56: Old Testament quotes from it constantly Look at the book of Hebrews.
01:15:03: Oh my goodness You can't make heads or tails of the book of Hebrews if you don't know what the Old Testament is all about Citation after citation after citations, but it's lengthy.
01:15:12: Look at Hebrews chapter 8. It's almost all citation Jeremiah 31 intimate knowledge and argumentation based
01:15:23: Close relationship between Old and New Testament between Tanakh and Injil between Torah and injil as you would put it, but then
01:15:33: You look at the Quran Chasm empty space
01:15:41: Massive disconnect Has the author of the Quran heard stories from Jews. Yep Heard some stories from Christians a few not many and This is only exacerbated
01:15:57: By the fact that the author of the Quran then thinks very clearly That some of the stories that developed hundreds of years after Jesus some within 150 years of the time of Muhammad's birth
01:16:11: Were actually a part of the Injil Making clay birds breathing on them
01:16:17: Jesus in his cradle speaking Arabic infancy gospel had nothing to do with the New Testament had nothing to do with the historical
01:16:23: Jesus They're all made -up stories. The author of the car didn't know that Shows no discernment as to sources at all
01:16:34: See the see the position that we're in when you ask us to accept the
01:16:42: Little book That's only 14 % the length of the Bible written 600 years later in a different language that shows no meaningful knowledge of our scriptures
01:16:59: Fundamentally denies central elements of what our scriptures teach and yet you say
01:17:06: This is the final authority. This is the muhammadan Over the
01:17:13: Torah in the Injil on what basis on what basis
01:17:25: I'm seriously asking you to consider that Because my hope is My hope is that these are some of the things that we can actually engage in a meaningful fashion in the future
01:17:37: Even on this program, but I'd like it to happen in Hong Kong That's what
01:17:42: I'm hoping is gonna happen Of course at the rate I'm going I won't finish reviewing this debate until next year anyway
01:17:51: I'm sorry. Here is a verse John 17 3 Yeah, and here's
01:17:56: Jesus talking to the sorry. I Jumped ahead. I'm just good. We've already dealt with it, right?
01:18:02: Okay, and This is eternal life that they might know you who the only true
01:18:09: God and Jesus Christ Here Jesus is talking to who to the father telling him that you are the only true
01:18:17: God. How could this be more clear? How could we explain it in a more clear words to understand that the father according to the
01:18:25: Bible is the only true God? another verse First Corinthians 8 6 for us
01:18:32: Paul is talking here for us. There is but one God who the father Simple you know simple simple well
01:18:44: I'm I'm I'm hoping That now you would go. I wish
01:18:49: I hadn't said that because I wasn't aware of I really didn't look at the rest of the verse.
01:18:57: I Didn't think of the use of heist Translating a had I didn't really consider
01:19:04: The importance of the term courteous and how courteous is the subject rendering of the tetragrammaton
01:19:13: I didn't really think through you know From whom are all things we for him through whom are all things we through him
01:19:22: The different roles of father and son and bringing about the people of God and that you still you have the top on time
01:19:28: You've got creation if you carry top on to over to Colossians chapter 1 what's said there? Just weren't aware of those things they're in the
01:19:36: Forgotten Trinity. I I do discuss them there But when you say it's simple
01:19:46: Make sure you're grasping everything that it's actually stating and at that point you can see
01:19:54: What is really saying? This morning. I sent a message to my friend
01:19:59: Lincoln wishing him good Luck for for today's event I told him that I prayed, you know for you and actually all my green
01:20:09: Ninja Turtles volunteers at the back They have witnessed they have witnessed this that we prayed for him
01:20:15: We say that Oh God, let the truth be be apparent on his tongue because the debate is not about winning an argument
01:20:23: We have something called ego arrogance in Islam that if it is found by even an atom weight of a master seed
01:20:31: We will not enter paradise if we That sounds that's wonderful but Sounds to me like the mission impossible salvation system that the
01:20:46: Mormons have in the Book of Mormon Book of Mormon says that if we will rid ourselves of all ungodliness and love
01:20:54: God with our heart soul mind strength Then is his grace sufficient for us. Well, nobody can do that and Why l why?
01:21:02: Well look into your heart You don't think that the end of this debate?
01:21:10: Someone came up to you And said oh, well, you were great. You made great arguments.
01:21:16: You don't think you had just an Adams weight I mean an
01:21:22: Adam smaller than mustard seed Just an Adams weight of arrogance. Maybe just a bit
01:21:28: Come on, so that's pretty high standard pretty high standard
01:21:40: Arguing to win a debate just for the sake of winning a debate. I will not be in Jannah I will not be in paradise
01:21:46: So the debate that we are having here is not to win an argument But rather to make the words of God the most high that's it whether this truth
01:21:56: Appeared on my tongue or his tongue. So I sent him the prayer and he replied he say we have been praying for you, too
01:22:06: It's good, Alhamdulillah, but he made another prayer. I wanted to read it for you
01:22:13: Because I don't want to misquote my friend, you know So he replied that's what he believed
01:22:20: By by natural. That's what he believed He said what
01:22:28: My team and I have also been praying for you. It's like you're not only the only one praying, you know
01:22:34: No, but he said may God Almighty the Father May God Almighty the
01:22:40: Father bless you and your family. He didn't say may God Almighty Father Son and Holy Spirit.
01:22:46: He divided them now Now my L There's absolutely nothing unusual whatsoever in addressing prayer to the
01:23:01: Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit You will hear
01:23:11: Let's be honest a lot of Less than accurate prayers in Christian churches.
01:23:23: In fact, I think about it I think about what we often hear in churches and man
01:23:28: It would it would drive a Muslim insane trying to figure out what in the world we're saying so much inaccuracy
01:23:37: You'll hear someone say Oh God our
01:23:42: Heavenly Father We thank you so much for all that you've given to us and we thank you for dying on the cross for our sins well maybe in their mind they've
01:23:56: Changed the object of their address to the Sun or maybe they just haven't thought it through and Aren't and are no more deeply
01:24:13: Aware of their theology Than a large number of the Muslims with whom I've spoken
01:24:19: Because the fact the matter is well, I've spoken with Muslims and I knew Islam a whole lot better than they did
01:24:25: Had read much more than they had in the hadith in the Quran in Islamic theology.
01:24:36: I I've had a lot of people who have given me a meaningful discussion for example of Tauheed Tauheed al -rubabiya in lordship in names and attributes
01:24:50: They wouldn't know anything about those categories. They they couldn't couldn't give me any meaningful Discussion of what conditions need to need to accompany the shahada for it to be a real shahada
01:25:02: You know that. And so I can understand why if you've listened to some
01:25:07: Christians, I'm not talking about Lincoln here because that's a perfectly fine prayer. But there are times when
01:25:15: Christians will pray inaccurately. Their desires are not as well informed by their study, shall we say.
01:25:29: But there's nothing in what Lincoln said that is anti -Trinitarian, inconsistent in any way.
01:25:39: It's not an argument against the Trinity. And we do not have to repeat every single time, you know, you repeatedly said, whenever Christian thinks of God, they're thinking of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
01:25:50: No. God, the Father, is normative New Testament terminology.
01:25:57: The normal term that Paul uses for the Father is theos. The normal term that he uses for the
01:26:04: Son is quidios. The normal term that he uses for the Holy Spirit is pneuma. It's never an angelic thing.
01:26:11: So that's just following New Testament terminology. That's all that is.
01:26:17: If we were to talk about Lord and how wonderful our Lord is, would that be excluding the
01:26:26: Father? No. So that again takes us back to, the irony is that the text right behind your head explains your misunderstanding, if you just understood it better.
01:26:42: It actually provides the balance, and it gives you that balance. So I find that fascinating.
01:26:52: We're going to go for a quarter tilt, so it'll be jumbo, sound good? We're just about there.
01:26:59: He said, May God Almighty, the Father, and this is what we believe, God is one, undivided. One God and one mediator.
01:27:05: Listen to this carefully. 1 Timothy 2 .5, it says, for there is, what? One God and another addition now.
01:27:14: After one God, and who is one God? Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Remember this. Every time the Christians say
01:27:19: God, that God is three persons. Remember this? That's where you're wrong.
01:27:26: That's where you're wrong, Wael. That is not how we understand things. That's not how we think.
01:27:31: That's not how we interpret the New Testament. You would not find us doing that. And this is where you, of all the places in the debate, this is where you jump the track, the worst.
01:27:42: Okay? Where you start coming up with all these multiple people. Here's three, here's four, here's five, and no. Totally missing it.
01:27:50: Totally missing it. What does Paul say in this text?
01:27:56: Let me very quickly go over to it for you. So, for there is, and notice, again, it's set off in poetry in the
01:28:05: Greek. There's heis, again, for there is one
01:28:11: God and one mediator between God and men.
01:28:17: The man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as an antelutron, a ransom for all the testimony given at the right time.
01:28:29: All right? So you seem to have the idea here, well,
01:28:36: I'm going to assume Unitarianism. I'm going to ignore that this same
01:28:41: Apostle Paul identifies Jesus as God, calls him
01:28:47: God in Titus 2 .13. I'm going to ignore what he said in 1 Corinthians 8 .6. I'm going to ignore what he says in Philippians chapter 2, where he identifies
01:28:55: Jesus as Yahweh, and yet maintains a distinction between Father and Son. I'm going to ignore
01:29:00: Romans 9 .5 and Acts 20 .28 and all the rest of that kind of stuff. I'm going to do to Paul what
01:29:07: I would never allow James White to do to the Quran. Uneven scales.
01:29:13: Uneven scales. Different standards. I'm going to ignore all that. I'm going to isolate this text, and I'm going to try to turn it into a proof text.
01:29:19: Well, it doesn't work. Because what
01:29:25: I would like you to do is I would like to ask you to take the time to listen to the debate that I did with Abdullah Kunda on,
01:29:34: Can God Become Man? Abdullah took the time to read the Forgotten Trinity, interact with it, and what was great about the debate is we were focused upon the real issues.
01:29:44: We didn't go off all over the place. We're focused upon the real issues. There is one mediator between God and men, the man
01:29:53: Christ Jesus. We believe that Jesus Christ was truly man. Don't fall into the error that many
01:30:01: Muslims fall into in thinking, well, he's either a man or he's a prophet or he's
01:30:08: God. You believe Muhammad was a man, right? But you also believe he was a prophet, right? Of course.
01:30:14: We believe Jesus was a man. We believe Jesus was a prophet. But we believe everything else the
01:30:20: Bible says about Jesus Christ, that he's prophet, priest, king, son of God, God the
01:30:27: Son. And so you don't believe verse 6.
01:30:34: Why quote verse 5? I mean, do you really think that Paul was trying to deny this?
01:30:42: I mean, that doesn't make sense to me. Why do you think Paul's actually denying what he teaches elsewhere?
01:30:49: Because you don't believe verse 6, who gave himself as a ransom. You don't believe in the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ based on Surah 4, verses 1 -7, right?
01:31:00: So why break a sentence in half and say, I believe this part, I don't believe this part? But even then, you're not understanding what
01:31:07: Paul is saying if you think that saying, Anthropos Christos Iesus is a denial of what he says in Romans 9, 5 or any place else.
01:31:15: He's saying that the reason that Jesus can be that mesites, that mediator, is because he is truly man.
01:31:25: And yet he's also the Messiah. He functions perfectly in that place. He had to be truly man to be the true mediator and to give himself as a ransom for many.
01:31:36: That's absolutely necessary. Absolutely necessary. So, there you go.
01:31:44: We will pick up at that particular point in your presentation. I hope this is useful to you and to others as well.
01:31:52: And we will continue on next time on The Dividing Line where hopefully we will have our streaming issues fixed, understood, and all the rest of that kind of stuff.
01:32:03: Lord willing, we'll be back tomorrow. The program is going to be tomorrow and then Thursday and Friday, hopefully you'll be with your families doing what we should be doing, celebrating the great gift