Classic Friday: 2024 Summer of Interviews: The Tuesday Guy Interviews Mike and Pat Abendroth

No Compromise Radio

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

00:08

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

00:16

Apostle Paul said, ìBut we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour ,î so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

00:24

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isnít for you.

00:30

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as weíre called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

00:41

King. Hereís our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is

00:46

Mike Abendroth. Today, special edition. Pastor Pat Abendroth from Omaha Bible Church and the

00:54

Pactum, his podcast was here in West Boylston, Massachusetts, preaching, and we did a

01:01

Sunday school where Tuesday Guy, Pastor Steve, interviewed both Pat and myself, and we recorded it and we thought weíd play it today and next show.

01:11

So today is Mike and Pat and Steve at Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts, with a

01:19

Q &A, kind of get to know ministry, philosophy, issues of the day, etc. I hope youíre encouraged.

01:26

Pat is Mikeís, obviously, his younger brother. What do you mean, obviously?

01:32

The hair. Notice I have hair. Itís a clue, although itís not always telling.

01:40

Well, I wonít talk about my brother, but he has no hair. He was here a few weeks ago. Mike just tells me, ìIf you want to know what youíre going to be like in nine years, just look at me .î

01:50

Yeah, thatís not going to happen. Pat is the pastor at Omaha Bible Church and has been for how many years?

01:57

Since 1998. Since 1998. I canít do the math. Letís call it 24 years. So, quite a while.

02:07

And Pat also has a podcast called The Pactum, where he stars and sells coffee on the side, and all kind of merch.

02:20

Anything else I should say about him? No, thatís good. Just the smartest guy up here. Okay. So, yeah, thatís good.

02:28

Well, Pat, let me ask you this. Your dad died in 1989. What kind of impact did that have on you?

02:36

Where were you then, and how did it impact your life?

02:42

Okay. Good morning, everyone. Thanks for hosting. Thanks for allowing me to be here. I love BBC. I love my brother.

02:49

I love Steve. So, Mike and I were in New York City doing a conference, had a great time. Puffy eyes, because we just got into town.

02:56

So, anyway. So, yeah, our dad died in 1989. Is that what you said?

03:03

Thatís what Mike told me. I think itís probably the biggest, most significant event in my entire life, other than conversion.

03:09

I think the Lord used it to draw me to Himself. I was just the silly, naive kid that thought my whole world revolved around Omaha, Nebraska, and my family, and my dad, and things would always be the way they were.

03:23

And He died, and I think I was, to use psychological terminology, in denial. It changed everything.

03:32

So, the Lord used it radically in my life to unsettle me and cause me to ask big questions about life, death, eternity.

03:41

So, I think thatís really what God used to save me. So, I wish I could talk to my dad.

03:46

I wish I could go ride motorcycles with my dad. I wish I could go to his house today. All of those kinds of things.

03:52

I miss him desperately. But God used that as a gift in my life, a tragedy for good.

03:58

So, I think maybe similarly in Mikeís life. Maybe not exactly the same. Pat, do you remember when the

04:05

Lutheran pastor came over to our house after dad died, and then he said, ìHow would you like the funeral to be arranged ?î

04:12

And then he looked at me, and he said, ìMike, hereís the Bible, and what do you want me to say from the

04:19

Bible about your dad during the funeral ?î I donít know. I know the

04:24

Bible a little bit, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I had no idea. So, I just said, ìOh, Iím kind of in despair and in grief.

04:31

Whatever you think is appropriate .î But deep down, I thought, Iím never going to be embarrassed again if someone says to me, ìWhatís in the

04:38

Bible? Iím going to know .î So, I even wanted to know as an unbeliever, whatís in this book, right? I knew it was

04:44

Godís Word. I didnít really believe it all, but I wanted to know. And so, similar to Pat, I thought the stability in our familyís gone.

04:52

The rock is gone. The anchorís gone. The providerís gone. The 64240 Golden Gloves fighter, gone from Korean War.

05:00

Heís gone. Now what? So, is thereÖ I didnít say at the time, but the real question was, is there another father?

05:10

Well, that leads to my second question. I just want to know, who decided to go to seminary first?

05:16

Oh, that oneís easy. Mike went to seminary. He would send me his notes all the time. I had no clue about anything.

05:21

But I did almost graduate before him. So, he started like three years before me. And then

05:27

I came to seminary, and then we graduated together. But M starts before P.

05:33

I thought about legally having my name changed. Just so, Andrew Abendroth couldnít graduate first, but it didnít work out.

05:42

A funny seminary story is, one time Mike said, ìHey, did you get that hermeneutics paper done ?î

05:47

This is like on a Monday, and class is Tuesday. And Iím like, ìWhat ?î ìYeah, we have a hermeneutics paper due tomorrow for Dr.

05:53

Roscoe .î Oh, so all -nighter, stress, panic, all of this stuff.

05:59

I think I wrote it on Matthew 13 in a parable. Just complete stress basket, literal all -nighter.

06:05

Get to class the next day, and Mikeís behind me and pokes me and goes, ìHey, sorry .î Yeah, that was next week.

06:13

Letís do the next week. So, the brother that God gave me. He set you a week ahead, right?

06:22

Yeah. He cleared your schedule. What man intended for evil, God intended for good.

06:30

Well, I remember three years in a seminary, Pat came out because I was working full -time, teaching the

06:37

Bible regularly, and going to school part -time. And so, I thought, I need to finish school at the same time.

06:42

I canít have my younger brother finish first. But I took a semester off because I thought, you know, my marriage isnít the best, and you canít do everything in the world.

06:51

And I just thought, I just need to quit for a while, focus on Kim, and then Iíll go back into seminary.

06:57

Because if you canít run your own household, how can you want to be a pastor, even? So, I quit for a semester.

07:03

I remember writing the letter to Jim George in tears, thinking, basically, Iím a sinner, right?

07:08

I canít manage all these things. And then I found out that Pat was going to graduate in ë96, and I thought, better make sure our marriage gets better real fast.

07:17

Iíve got to graduate with Pat. Honey, Iím sorry. Please forgive me. Iíll do better. So, we graduated together.

07:25

You had to step it up. I have one more story about seminary that maybe I shouldnít tell.

07:32

But Mike, before I went to seminary, when he first started, Mike was making a lot of money, successful in sales, like a lot of money from my perspective.

07:42

And heís like, hey, you know what? Come out. Youíve saved up money, and youíve got all this going on, and Iíll give you money every month.

07:50

I donít think it happened one time. So, in part, we moved to California because my older brother was going to help fund it.

08:00

I got zero. Well, Iím sorry. Iíll make it up.

08:05

All right. This is nice. We can have family amends right here. It wasnít because he lied.

08:11

Itís because downturn, change of jobs. Got laid off. I remember what happened.

08:17

I had a little book by Thomas Watson, the Puritan Banner of Truth book, and it was called All Things for Good, Romans 8 .28.

08:25

And itís a classic book, and I wanted to read it, and I thought, you know, but the only problem is if I read it, Iím going to have to live it.

08:32

So I put it back. You donít read books on humility. Wink, wink. And I read the book, got laid off like the next week.

08:41

Haleyís tiny. I had no job. Couldnít support my younger brother. Pat, do you have any

08:46

R .C. Sproul Ligonier stories? I donít know.

08:52

Maybe we shouldnít tell the story. Itís too candid. You know what? Yeah, we better not tell that story.

09:01

Iím still in counseling over it because of what God did through my big brother. Man, I feel like I just stepped into an

09:09

Oprah show. Okay. So, Pat, whatís something unique in Mikeís preaching that you really like, you really enjoy?

09:23

Heís clear, and clarity is underrated. And so I love that, and I love being able to go home and read the passage.

09:31

Letís say if Iím listening in person, read the passage, and I can understand it better instead of being confused by it.

09:38

So I like that. I think a lot of preaching is confusing. Mike is clear. I use this word for his 20 -year anniversary.

09:48

I donít use it very often, but when I think of Mike in general, heís earnest. And I like that word a lot because it has to do with legitimate, having integrity.

09:56

Itís not some kind of fake life that doesnít match the preaching. And so earnest preaching,

10:02

I appreciate. Itís from the heart, and itís clear. And Mike? What do you like about your preaching?

10:09

No, not your preaching. Because that would be a dissection, right?

10:16

Yeah, thatís the worst, right, when you critique yourself. I could probably say many words, but itíll sound funny at the beginning, and then

10:24

Iíll clarify. Confident. And I donít mean confident in self, but when

10:30

I listen to Pat, I know heís done the study. We joke about whoís the smarter brother, but itís really

10:35

Pat, when you talk to him about issues and details and theological things, very, very insightful.

10:41

And I know youíve studied Pat, so when I listen, I think, I can take it easy, I donít have to question everything.

10:47

Heís confident, because your confidence isnít in self, itís I know the passage. Iíve devoted time to study, and I know it, and I can understand the passage better.

10:56

So I think confident. I was scrambling last week to get ready for this conference, and someone in our office said, ìYou know what they told me in the corporate world, what do they say about fake it?

11:10

Fake it till you make it .î And I said, ìWell, the only problem for me is, I canít fake it. Iím not good enough at it.

11:17

Thus, donít bother me. Iím going to my office to beat my head against the wall and pray .î

11:23

Put that on a poster. Donít bother me, Iím going to my office. Okay, how do you define,

11:31

Mike, how do you define the difference between law preaching and gospel preaching? Well, law, as you all know, in the congregation, is something from God.

11:43

Itís good. It reflects His nature, His character, and we want to obey God as created beings.

11:49

And so thereís nothing wrong with law. Gospel is good news. It centers around the personal work of the Lord Jesus that the

11:55

Father has sent. Excuse me. But law preaching in general really gives no good news.

12:02

Itís just to -do list. It doesnít give me a motivation to obey. Oh, this is what the Lord has done for me.

12:07

Whatís that old Spurgeon quote, ìWhen I thought God was hard, it was difficult to obey, but when

12:13

I found out how much He loved me, I wanted to just obey Him and honor

12:18

Him .î So I think law only preaching is youíre just getting whacked all the time and as a

12:23

Christian you walk out thinking, ìI donít even know if Iím saved or not .î Law preaching is good if you end up then preaching the gospel as well.

12:31

So to be convicted is good. To hear Godís law is good. To be motivated to obey is good.

12:36

But then afterwards, weíre not going to have those bruised reeds just broken off. Theyíre going to be encouraged.

12:43

And just like we want to train up our children after you disobey, ìI love you. You ask for forgiveness.

12:48

Come alongside .î So law only preaching is never giving good news as - specifically

13:01

Jesusí active obedience as He obeys in my place. So thatís what I would say law preaching is.

13:07

It almost makes you think, ìThe pastorís mad at me, therefore God must be mad at me because I never measure up .î

13:13

And thatís not what we do in Christianity. Itís not transactional. ìI have to try to measure up or else .î

13:18

Weíre in Christ. Weíre adopted. And therefore be who you are. Right? The Christian life is not, ìI have to be somebody

13:24

Iím not because you can never be somebody youíre not .î Instead, the Christian life is, ìBecause of Christ, be who you are.

13:31

Hereís who I am in Christ. Hereís what Iím able to do. I have the Spirit dwelling in me. And Iíll just try to be who I am in Christ, not strive to be somebody

13:39

I never could be .î Thank you. Pat, let me ask you about the same principle, basically.

13:46

But have you ever taken a Gospel passage and turned it into law? Is this some kind of confessional thing that weíre going to do?

13:59

Okay. Thereís a little screen between us and I have to tell him all the bad things Iíve done. And heíll say, ìI pardon you .î

14:08

Well, we just were at St. Patrickís Cathedral a couple days ago. Yeah, we did. And youíve got those little things that you put your credit card in, and you get something back.

14:17

And I thought, what do you get back? Nothing. Right, no receipts. I said no receipts.

14:22

$50 indulgence, no receipts. Youíll get it in purgatory. Oh, funny. I was at the

14:29

Vatican one time at the Vatican bookstore and they sell indulgences there. And thereís a little calculator right there on the counter.

14:36

And so I was just being silly and I typed in 666 and showed my friend who was with me.

14:43

And then the lady came over and said, ìCan I help you gentlemen ?î And I said, ìNo .î

14:48

Oh, anyway. Yeah, I think I have. So old sermons probably oftentimes maybe even from a gospel account.

14:58

And itís something that Jesus has done thatís wonderful. And then you tell the people, so you must do what

15:03

Jesus does. I think thatís taking a gospel account and turning it into law. And the problem with that is basically?

15:11

The problem with that is if I were Jesus and my own savior it would be fine. So the classic example,

15:18

Iíve probably even used it here before, when Jesus is tempted too many preachers, self -confession, too many preachers turned it into ìLook,

15:28

Jesus was tempted and youíre going to be tempted and Jesus quotes the Bible and thatís how he overcomes temptation so youíd better know your

15:34

Bible .î Secondary application I would say thatís good to know. You should know your Bible and when

15:40

Satan tempts you it would be good to quote the Bible. Okay, great. But if thatís what itís about first and foremost youíre not reading the

15:46

Bible the way most Christians ever in the history of Christianity have read the Bible. Jesus is the last

15:51

Adam. Heís on earth as our representative firstly, not as our example.

15:57

And so we should read it and say, ìOh, this looks a lot like what happened in the garden the first time and now weíre in the garden and now we have a representative and heís tempted by Satan .î

16:07

So many things the same and heís victorious. The point is trust in him, itís a gospel passage, not follow him or else.

16:15

So, thereís my sermon for today. Letís close in prayer. Amen. Well, whatís that Beal book, ìThe

16:21

Right Doctrine from the Wrong Textî? Thatís good. Right, so Psalm 119, ìHide Godís Word in your heart so that you might not sin against Him .î

16:29

Itís true. Iím not a good enough hider but once Iím in Christ now

16:35

I want to do the right thing in light of it. What did S. Lewis Johnson say when a man told him, ìJesus is only an example and I take

16:42

Him as an example only, not as a substitute, penalty substitution, gory, bloody, awful stuff.

16:48

I donít want that. Heís only my example .î And Lewis said to him, ìWell, how are you living up to His example ?î

16:54

He said, ìNot so well, so now you need Him as a substitute as well .î Thatís good. In that sense, Jesus obeyed the law.

17:01

So Jesusí life preaches law to you. And so you should look at Jesus and say, ìWoe is me,

17:07

Iím undone .î Because Heís perfect and did everything perfectly. Iím so thankful that God is kind and merciful and gracious when it comes to preaching.

17:19

I remember being in preaching classes and thinking, itís kind of like the ìBeî series.

17:26

Be faithful, be joyful, be earnest. Itís law, law, law, law, law.

17:32

Even though some of those things are good. But Iím thinking, if I could just find the imperatives and preach the imperatives.

17:39

Because theyíll preach. But I didnít understand indicative, imperative, gospel, law. Anyway. It was right before our very eyes, too.

17:47

You look at Ephesians and you think, ìOh, chapters 1, 2, and 3. Hereís who God is. Hereís who you are in Christ.

17:54

Colossians 1 and 2. Hebrews 1 to 12 .î And then we see our response to Godís work.

18:00

We graciously went to obey. Okay. Number six.

18:06

And Iíll give this to Pat. Are you now, or have you ever been, an antinomian?

18:12

See, here we go with more of the confession kind of stuff. Well, you know, first, if you would just define what antinomian is.

18:20

Thank you, man on the smaller seat. We actually have these stools in our kitchen.

18:29

So, I feel right at home. I feel like I should be eating Greek yogurt. Oikos Greek yogurt and blueberries or something.

18:36

Okay, so antinomianism would be anti -law, anti -namas. An antinomian typically is somebody who doesnít think you have to obey

18:44

Godís law at all. So, people who would, either theologically, they would say youíre not under any obligation to Godís law.

18:52

For example, moral law in the Old Testament. People who say that historically are antinomian. Or, people who practically are antinomian, you can live however you want to live.

19:03

So, hey, Iím in by grace and now I can just send it up. Sort of like the question thatís anticipated in Romans 6.

19:10

Paul expects people to ask, ìHey, can we be antinomian now ?î The answer is no. But, Iíve been an antinomian for sure as an unbeliever in my life.

19:20

Even if I didnít know theological categories, I live as a law unto myself. But, upon becoming a

19:27

Christian, itís like, no, God requires things. I donít measure up. I have to trust in Christ, the perfectly obedient one.

19:33

Now I want to obey the law, even though I donít do it perfectly. God sees me as if I am perfect.

19:41

So, never been an antinomian, even though today I might be. Let me put it this way. I want to be accused of being an antinomian.

19:49

Think about that. Why would I say that? As a Christian, I want you to be accused of being an antinomian.

19:56

Sort of like your pastor is commonly accused of being an antinomian. Hereís why.

20:03

Not because of your lifestyle, not because you lead a double life, but because youíre so clear on the doctrine of justification like the

20:12

Apostle Paul is in Romans 1 -5. So clear that God justifies the ungodly,

20:19

Romans 4. That people say, ìExcuse me, I have a question .î

20:25

Romans 6, right? ìDoes this mean I can do whatever I want to do ?î And the Apostle Paul says, ìBy no means .î

20:31

And he explains why. But if youíre not being accused of being one, you might just be a neonomian.

20:39

Somebody who says itís faith and works. So thatís going to be my little spiel for the day on that issue.

20:46

I probably am an antinomian every time I sin as a Christian. Functionally, right?

20:52

Oh, Iím acting like Godís law doesnít matter. I think the big reveal for me was Godís law to an unbeliever,

20:59

He requires perfect obedience. But now what about the law to a believer? And now the law to the believer says to you, ìFor your good, obey.

21:09

For my glory, obey .î But it doesnít change our status, our condition. Remember, we ought not to think about God as less kind and gracious than our own fathers.

21:21

Fathers donít say, ìIf you sin one time and break my rule, youíre kicked out of the family forever .î

21:27

Maybe some have said that, but the Heavenly Father doesnít. And so we have the law of God through the hands of Christ, and we want to obey out of gratitude, but not to keep our standing with God.

21:39

The text does say weíre under grace, not law. What does he mean? As a condemning instrument, weíre no longer under law to condemn us because Jesus has paid for that and earned righteousness for us.

21:51

Elsewhere, we see Godís law, ìWalk in a manner worthy. Donít complain .î Athlete language, farmer language, soldier language, work language, toil language, stay -up -late -at -night language, be -alert language, and we do that because we know

22:05

God wants us to, but not because we have to earn favor with Him. So I just want to be clear about the law from God is no longer from a judge.

22:16

Our relationship has changed, and itís from a Father who loves us. Okay, good.

22:24

All right, number seven. If you, Mike, could wave a wand and change one thing and one thing only in todayís evangelical churches, what would it be?

22:35

That would be the spirit of divination, and weíd have to kill them in the Old Testament. Thereíll be an execution after church.

22:45

Good thing weíre not theonomists. I thought

22:51

I was going to be clever and say your seat height, but then Pat stole the thunder. Itís not funny anymore.

22:58

One thing in evangelicalism, I mean, you know what

23:06

I harp about these days, and if I get asked to go speak at a conference on whatever it is, end times, I end up talking about law, gospel, and sanctification, you know, whatever it is because you end up talking about the

23:16

Lord Jesus. And I think probably my biggest complaint about evangelicalism is they, evangelicalism, believe that Jesus lived, died, was buried, raised, ascended, and will come back.

23:29

But now that we got that over and believed in him, letís get over to moralism and laws and other things.

23:35

I wish theyíd talk about, itís Jesus not just to get into heaven, but Jesus to live a holy life, right?

23:41

He gives us his spirit, and the fruit of the spirit is love and joy. So Christ for pardon and Christ for power,

23:46

I think thatís whatís lacking in the TED talk Christianity that you turn on.

23:51

Itís five ways, four methods, three steps, two special ways, and one, I donít know, whatever.

23:57

But thatís what we want, because as a congregation, you donít do this, but many congregations, just tell me a few things to do and Iíll do them.

24:04

And now I can feel good about my Christianity because I did what Iím supposed to do. I had my quiet time, I did my prayer walk,

24:09

I did this, that, and the other, and I want them to do that, but not, thatís just out of the flow of gratitude for what

24:14

God has done. So... Itís like I can get my Christianity out of the way by noon, right?

24:21

Now I can live the rest of my day in peace. And Pat, what would you do?

24:26

What would you change, if you could just change one thing about evangelicalism? I would agree with Mike, but if Iím going to take a different tact, maybe itís going to be,

24:36

I would change peopleís perspective on the righteousness of God. First of all, that they would understand what that even means, that God has a holy law, and it is a requirement that you keep it personally, perfectly, and perpetually.

24:53

So, no one gets to heaven without being perfect. Iím thinking of Romans 10, itís one of my favorite passages, because the

24:59

Jews, Paul talks about, didnít understand the righteousness of God. And so they didnít understand that thereís no possible way.

25:07

Heart, soul, mind, and strength, neighbor as yourself, loving God, never. So if we really understood righteousness, and what it actually looks like from God, if we really understood

25:17

God, what would happen is we would all say, ìWoe is me, Iím undone, I canít do it, this is awful, this is terrible,

25:24

Iím depressed, and thereís no hope .î And that would be awesome. Because then, you look outside of yourself to look to Romans 10, ìRighteousness provided by a substitute who perfectly did it for me .î

25:37

But I donít think people, they donít understand. So they create their own righteousness, me and Jesus, and we can do it together as long as Iím faithful enough.

25:45

So, Romans 10 is phenomenal to consider. Visit bbcchurch .org