Jeff Durbin vs. VICE's Jamali Maddix | Abortion & Christianity

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The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

00:24

What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. I'm Jeff. They call me the

00:30

Ninja. That's Luke the Bear. What up? And of course, and I'm going to pause here for a second just to get to the microphone.

00:36

There you go. That's Joy the Girl. And Marcus King Ginger on the ones and twos. What's up y 'all?

00:42

We're back. We're back. We're actually, we're back. Yeah. I'm, I'm back. Yeah. Three weeks, man.

00:47

It's been long. It's too long. Big time. So that was Psalm 110. One y 'all. That's the most quoted reference from the old

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Testament in the new Testament. Psalm 110. One. The apostle Paul, first Corinthians 15 gives a portrait, a picture of history.

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Where are we going? He quotes Psalm 110. One says, that's what's up right now. Jesus is

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King. He is reigning on his throne and all of history is God putting all things under Christ's feet and then total victory.

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Jesus delivers the kingdom over the father. So that's what's up with that verse. And we're back doing some of that stuff actually in the

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Island of Kauai. I'm going to talk about that for a sec, just for a minute. So I headed out a little bit early to Kauai and took a little bit of a sabbatical.

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And then actually met up with the team afterwards. And we spent a week with the team on the

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Island of Kauai for our church plant. We, God willing, are planting a church January of 2018.

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That's our first worship service somewhere in there. And so this is our last trip before we actually send the families out to plant a church there.

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So the Island of Kauai has a huge problem with drug and alcohol addiction, alcohol and methamphetamines, actually a significant suicide rate.

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A lot with the youth, of course, but there's other age in that too, but I mean a lot of youth suicide.

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So living in paradise and still not happy. But so that's what's up. So they're also heavily, heavily impacted by the cults,

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Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, you got a lot of Roman Catholic influence there, Church of Christ, those sorts of things.

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And we actually ran into some Latter -day Saints, some Mormon missionaries. Yes, we did. In Hanapepe.

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That's the name of the town, Hanapepe. Ran into four missionaries out there, actually got a chance to record the conversation.

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You can see that at Apologia Studios on YouTube. Hey guys, I got to make a quick interruption here. Okay. Can we not have the music because it can't be cleared for our special guest for the show?

02:46

Yeah, I'll turn it down. All right. There you go. Okay. All right. That was special. I love your, I love your like announcer broadcast voice.

02:54

Very professional. Try to sound more professional. I'm not going to, I didn't want to give away who our guest was. That's right. We have a special guest in the studio today and we're going to introduce you to him in just a minute.

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But I'll give you guys a chance. We're going to make him wait. Keep him on, keep him on ice. He's good. He's good.

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And so what's up? What happened when we were gone, Joy? Anything happen in the studio? Anything special? I know something, one thing special happened.

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It stayed really, really clean. Did it? I see that's, yes. And I got a lot of work done because no one was bothering me.

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And that's it. That's all? Wait. What was your one special thing? Well, the one thing that we finally got done. It actually finally happened.

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We started, I think about the day after you left, we got our first kits sent out and then sort of got in a swing of that.

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We have a process for it now. So now they're going out quite a bit faster. So as of right now,

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I think we have 101 kits out. Sent out. Yeah. So if you guys don't know what that means.

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Some of you probably haven't, actually by the time they're listening to this, everyone may have gotten theirs already that were sent.

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So and then we have a few more and we're at the end of our list as far as it goes right now.

04:07

Good. So endabortionnow .com is the site that's launched right now. So local churches across the

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United States are going to endabortionnow .com, getting linked up with the movement and getting the training, getting all the video and the resources.

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And what we do as a church is we actually send out to these churches a kit and in the kit you have signs to communicate with the mothers and fathers going into the abortion mills.

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We also have tracks and information you guys can hand out. So some of you guys have been sending us pictures of your kits arriving.

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We want to tell you how much that means to us. We're grateful for that. So I'm so happy to see that happening. We've been looking forward to that, like actually seeing the kits in your hands and out of our garage.

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Right. Basically. Yeah. Absolutely. So if you haven't signed up yet, go to endabortionnow .com. You guys can get connected over there.

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If you have questions, you guys can send a message to either, we'll probably to Zach first and he can answer any questions you guys have.

05:01

But Joy and Zach, thank you guys both actually for all that work you guys are doing. So let's introduce our guest, right?

05:09

So we're in the studio right now, Apologia Studios, Underground Bunker, right outside of Phoenix, Arizona in our makeshift studio because the set for next week with Jeff Durbin is in the other room and it's basically done, just polishing stuff right now.

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But we're in our makeshift studio and we have a very special guest. We actually have guests, plural, Vice is here.

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We love Vice. We do. I watch Vice all the time. It's true. It's like my favorite documentary crew.

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Yeah. Right. I mean, I don't know who's better, Shane or our guest in terms of like host and I don't know.

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Shane has been in North Korea. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Not as scary as maybe this is.

05:54

Good point, man. I would like to go to North Korea. Yeah. North Korea. Yeah.

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North Korea. Sorry. I'm just trying to get my voice now.

06:05

Okay. So anyway, Vice is here with us filming a documentary around Apology of Church, Apology of Studios and Abortion Now.

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And we have a very special guest, somebody we've watched and we know who he is, Jamali Maddox.

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And welcome to the show, Jamali. Oh, thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm really, really happy to be here. This is like the most epic voice to have on Apology of Studios.

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So now like John Samson has - No, he put John Samson to shame. Completely. John Samson is basically a totally American now.

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Who's John Samson? Is he a British dude? He's a British dude. A long time ago. I feel like he lost his way. Yeah. He's lost his way. He came to minister to the colonies.

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He came to minister to the colonies. He's lost a bit. He still drinks his tea though. You can keep him now. We don't want him back. Yeah. We don't want him back.

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So I'll ask you questions. So Jamali, what are you doing connected with Vice? What do you do? Who are you?

06:52

Well, I'm a comedian. I've been doing comedy since I was, seriously, since I was about 20, maybe 18 on and off.

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And right now I make documentaries. I've done one series last year where I want to spoke to various groups around the world.

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And this year we're centering more on like America. Yeah. Sort of alternative ideas, maybe, and, you know, sort of different perspectives.

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So we've seen some of the old season stuff. And so I have to ask you, the name of the series, which almost stopped us from actually agreeing to do it, was

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Hate Thy Neighbor. Do you hate your neighbor? No. It's because that is like, did it actually really need to stop you doing the film?

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Well, we look as we would, we abhor the idea of hating our neighbor. So the name of the series, it wasn't literally, it wasn't literal.

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And Danny and them, they were like, no, no, no, no. We understand. It's not about that. Yeah. So tell us about the series.

07:44

I mean, the first series, I want to spoke to various groups who had very strong opinions about certain things.

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So I spoke to some considered hate groups, some considered not. And it's just a bunch of people who sort of have very strong ideals, which the larger population maybe don't agree with or don't understand.

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It's just trying to get a more understanding of their perspective. So I saw the one with the black supremacist. Oh, you did? You did see that one?

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Yeah. That was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We did it. We did a show on black Hebrew Israelites.

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Yeah. And it exploded. I mean, it was like instant, instant.

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As soon as, as soon as one person found out about the show, it just, it flew, went crazy. Now we have so many videos online about us because we did a show on black

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Hebrew Israelites. So they're pretty intense. Have you debated with them? I've never actually, I think one time when

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I was like 17, I was traveling the country, like competing in martial arts. And I think

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I remember one time running into one on a street corner and he wasn't too abusive with me. It was just like a moment.

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It just said something kind of weird to me. And he was like, Jesus was black. And I was like, that's cool. Yeah. All right.

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I'm fine with that. But I mean, never got really into a conversation with one. Yeah. I mean, it's the black

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Israelites are a strange one. I'm not, I'm not too versed with biblical matters, but I mean, to say that Jesus was a dark skinned man isn't an insane perspective.

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I mean, you know, he grew up, you know, from that part of the world, probably would be of a darker skin, woolier hair, but it's, you know, the other stuff and the other interpretations

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I think is where people have the real problem. Right. It's where they think, you know, white people going back into slavery and all these type of things.

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Jesus is coming back to put his boot on my neck. Yes. Yeah. As a white person. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's that.

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That's, that's, that's one of them. What did they say? Esau, right? Yeah. Big hairy Esau. Yeah. Different tribes.

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They break down the 12 tribes into the lost people of Israel. Right.

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So it's like, but they think it's not the people who claim to be Jewish now. Right. They think it's a claim to be sort of like Native Americans, various people when they, they claim it from people who have suffered slavery in the modern world.

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Right. Is my, from what I understand. Right. But it's weird because you ask them about like the aboriginals in Australia and they go, well, you know, and it's like those people have, you know, gone, like had their land stolen and.

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Right. Different, but they don't have that. So it's a, it's a very, it's a very complicated sort of, you can't really, unless you,

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I think unless you join it, you can't really understand it. So I never really left with a more of understand that said white people going into slavery.

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Right. Because it's, you know, you have to sort of like be versed in the Bible like they are. Yeah. It was powerful because when we did this show, just with it, with a buddy of ours that knows a lot about it and is engaged with them a bunch, it created this firestorm and I have never seen so many racist comments about white people come my way.

10:38

And I was just like, well, that's interesting. Not as bad as the flat earth people though. Yeah. They're not as. Yeah. The flat earth people are really.

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That's what they do. You don't want to mess with the flat earth people. I've spoken to, I've spoken to bad people, the flat earth people.

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I don't want them trolling me. They're unrelenting. And you can't really even debate it because it's like, you go, yeah,

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I mean, we're both not scientists. We both don't, but we know it's not.

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And they go, but how? And you go, yeah, because it's not. Yeah. I mean, we know it. So I'm not stupid. Um, but yeah, a buddy of ours, uh, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's

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And you know, and interestingly, someone like Donald Trump, what bothered us initially is,

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I know, I grew up hearing about Donald Trump. I was born in 1978 so, I mean, my whole life,

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Donald Trump's been on the news, in television, everyone knows who Donald Trump is. So I knew what Donald Trump, uh, had believed before.

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And so when he started running for president and he started coming out as pro life and saying the things that he was, I was very leery of myself personally because I didn't know if I could buy it.

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And at this point in a, where he's at today with what he's, um, uh, not done, uh, concerning the area abortion,

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I felt like my concerns were warranted. I don't think that it was, it was a genuine commitment to, to ending, uh, the slaughter of children in our nation to, to doing anything about abortion.

13:59

Cause it's interesting too. And, and the, especially near the tail end of his campaign, you saw like Donald Trump using a lot of the pro -life rhetoric and pro -life language, uh, talking about overturning

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Roe versus Wade and putting judges in that would end, uh, uh, Roe.

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Uh, but now here we are, what are we now? Six, seven months, seven months into his presidency.

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And it's almost seems like radio silence from president Trump on the issue of abortion. So we, we were very concerned ourselves.

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That just seemed like it was just a big. If you use, you think is this using it for a populist, uh, sort of, uh, just to get people to vote for it.

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Yeah. Who do you need to vote for you? Uh, you need, well, you gotta get the Christian vote. That's huge. You gotta get the evangelical vote.

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You gotta get the conservative vote. And you know, here are the key issues for the conservatives, the evangelicals, you've got abortion pro -life.

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And so I think that Donald Trump latched onto that and made promises that I don't at this point believe that he has any, um, commitment to actually see through.

14:55

But do you think that's due to the political system? Because I mean, it's sort of, if we're talking about like, and I know you believe from a biblical perspective, but if we're just talking about the, the, the political system we live in today is democracy and sort of, uh, this, this sort of a structural political system, uh, you can't just change the law tomorrow, you know, he has to go through certain, uh, systems and certain, uh, facets to get to that.

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So, uh, would, so do you think that he has, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, intentions to do it or do you think that he fully just like totally uncommitted to it?

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Like, do you think that that should be his, his, his, uh, a goal every day is to wake up and to try and end abortion?

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Yeah. I think that that's, so you've got these major issues of injustice that I think we should address with like an immediatist mindset.

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We should immediately stop the slaughter of children. Right? Like if somebody said like, well, how do you want to end the

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Holocaust with, you know, Jews being killed? Do you want to do it over a period of, you know, 30, 40 years? I would say, yeah, we can do that immediately.

15:56

Let's try to, let's do that quickly. Um, but in terms of abortion, in terms of how the

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United States government system works, you have, um, a system of government that was essentially created, um, from Geneva.

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I mean, I mean the most popular study Bible in the time of, um, the American revolution was the

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Geneva study Bible. Uh, Calvin's Geneva produced so much of what we see in the American political system and governmental system.

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So we have checks and balances. Of course, we have a process through which the people can get representation and they can hold their government and check and accountable.

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However, we also have the, the part of our system that allows for a lesser government to oppose a tyrannical government, right?

16:41

Uh, we have the ability of, uh, somebody who say a sheriff or a local city or governor to say to a higher government or to a cousin government.

16:50

I don't, I'm not following that. I reject that. Great example right now. It's perfect. Is say Washington and Colorado, uh, federal government says no marijuana, right?

17:00

It's against the laws against federal law. Well, what these lesser magistrates have done in Colorado and Washington is they followed what is legal in our country.

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And they've said, we don't agree with that law. We're not going to obey that law. And so we're going to legalize marijuana in our state.

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I think they had every right to do that. And I think it was a completely, completely right to, to, to do that from their perspective for their states.

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Um, a lesser magistrate can resist in that way. And our government system allows that. But in this case of abortion, from our perspective,

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Jamali, um, abortion, Roe versus Wade is not a law. Our, our system of government doesn't give the

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Supreme court the rights to create legislation. So our, our constitutional system says that, um, that it is up to the

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Congress to legislate, right? Not to the Supreme court. So we'd see in 1973 that Roe versus Wade, the

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Supreme court gave a court opinion based upon false, false premises. They said that what's in the womb is potential human life.

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We know biblically and biologically speaking, that's false. Um, but they, they had a decree that we believe this about abortion.

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And so all the states have essentially bought into a lie. And that is that Roe versus Wade is actually a law and it's not.

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So any state in the United States now could criminalize abortion immediately at the state level by saying we reject Roe and we're going to hold to the laws we have, even in some cases in place today.

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So great example, Jamali is in Arizona today, there is a current law on the book books that criminalizes abortion.

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It's never been changed. It's never been altered. Nothing's ever, it's, it's current on the books. And the reason it's not actually upheld is because we're under the false assumption that Roe versus Wade did something to those states laws when in fact it didn't.

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So we would actually be of the perspective that, um, we don't need to work to overturn

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Roe versus Wade because it's not a law. Um, what we need to do is have state governments uphold though their legal right as lesser magistrates to resist the opinion of the

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Supreme court, um, and uphold their state laws. Just like marijuana laws, right? Just like the governments are ignoring them.

19:08

Do you think that it should go down to a democratic vote of, so because if we're going to break it down to state level, say if we're talking about America, we're breaking it down to every state's individual country.

19:20

Uh, just because it's such a big country. Right. So it's about individual states. That's how it's supposed to be.

19:25

Yeah. So do you think that each state should vote on the law? So say, say, say if Arizona one don't want abortion and everyone's voted and it's got a higher percentage on votes, no more about abortion.

19:39

But then New York state is overall that, that they're, that they want to have a legal abortion.

19:45

Do you think that the government should still get involved in New York if they want legal abortion? I think that it should go down to states themselves to govern themselves.

19:54

As a matter of fact, um, the government system in United States was built in such a way as to be a republic, right?

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So the way you described it as perfect, like these almost individual countries in a union, like what they meant when they said union, they didn't mean what we have today where it's really a federal government really running everything.

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They meant this is our thing, right? We're all individual sovereign states, but this is our thing.

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So I do think the states have the right responsibility just to say this, what we're going to do. And I do believe Jamali, I think that if you in the

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United States of America today, I think if you said put it to a vote, yeah, let's let each state vote. I think that you would see abortion banned in virtually every state except for the, except for the known liberal ones.

20:32

Yes. I do believe that. Are you quite libertarian in your political approach? Very. Um, I think that if you took like the law of God and you applied the general equity of it to today and said, let's make, uh, our, our system look like what this is, it would be, it would look very libertarian.

20:52

It would look very libertarian. Um, so yeah. Yeah. But I think that part of like libertarianism as well, like freedom of choice, uh, in a sense, except libertarianism, this is where libertarianism dies.

21:05

Well libertarianism dies because it's got the right ideal of personal freedom and personal responsibility and self -governance, right?

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And small limited governments, that kind of stuff is like in principle, I, it's absolutely right. I think that comes ultimately from Christian worldview to have that kind of idea.

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However, uh, where libertarianism dies and it will never get off the ground is it doesn't have an objective moral standard because you can say personal freedom responsibility all you want.

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But if you don't have an objective standard of what is actually right and wrong, you're just in a sea of confusion. Yeah. And so I think that's where libertarianism will always just fall dead.

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So do you think that it's because, uh, I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, do you want to see America's law based on a

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Christian system of, uh, of law and justice of what you perceive to be law and justice? Right. Yeah.

21:51

If me, say if I'm a non -Christian, do you think I should have to live under the guidelines of, of a Christian morality if I don't believe in it?

21:59

Well, it's, it's a, it's a good question. Um, and I think that if we were to ask it the other way, um, same assumptions, we would see that we're talking about the same thing.

22:09

So for example, um, I, I, I know that you're, you know, not a believer, not a Christian, um, but you would probably want more of a secular society, right?

22:18

Democracy. I prefer democracy to a theological, uh, law and justice system.

22:24

Right. And, but the thing I would point to is that every system is a, is a theocracy. Every system is a theocracy.

22:30

So for example, we took elements of it. Yeah. Because you, cause I mean, obviously, you know, uh, ideas of Christianity, Islam, whatever, you know, just from years and years of, and they were like the powerhouses, uh, politically for so many years.

22:43

Yeah. And they're going to have certain parts of their theology or their, their, their philosophical thought that we're going to take, like, you know, don't, don't kill people.

22:51

Yeah. We'll have that. Don't steal. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, we are going to take certain elements of that because there is a certain, uh, moral standard that I think even a atheist and a

23:04

Christian would share. You know, I think, I think it's, I think if you get two decent people who are Christian and one's an atheist and you say, what do you think about murder?

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Or would you think about, you know, a robbery? You probably both agree. We don't like it. Right. But it's, uh, you know, it's the other things cause there's other nuances.

23:19

Right. I think that, that people would disagree on. Of course. I probably wouldn't want to live under. So what's interesting is that, um, the way that you illustrated that is actually really interesting.

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You talked about Christians and atheists and even atheists borrowing saying, I like that from the Christian worldview. We'll keep that. We agree. We'll agree on that.

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What I would point to is that the atheist is being inconsistent at that point because he has to borrow capital from the

23:39

Christian worldview in order to live in a just society, in an ordered world. Uh, but the atheist is living inconsistently with his own principles.

23:47

So for example, when the atheist says, I think it's absolutely wrong in society to murder and to rape.

23:52

What I would say is that comports with Christianity. Are we, are we, are we going along the perspective here that, that, that Christianity own morality then?

24:01

That Christianity can, can justify moral appeals. Objective moral appeals. But then it sounds like that.

24:06

We're saying that Christianity is the orbital of morality. Well, I'll say it this way.

24:11

I'll give you something to shoot at. Okay. So what I would say is that the Christian says, say, rape and murder are absolutely wrong.

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And the Christian has a basis to say that. We believe that we're in the image of God. God has spoken on rape and murder.

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He condemns it. He calls it, you know, he calls it what it is and he says, you're not to do it. That's a certain claim from God.

24:30

Now. So when I say as a Christian, you're not to rape and to murder, I have a worldview that makes sense of that. But let's take, for example, the atheist, the atheist says,

24:37

I believe that it's wrong to rape and murder as well. I can ask the atheist, well, how do you justify that claim?

24:43

Because you believe you live in a universe that's time and chance acting on matter that your ancestors were fish and that there is no objective morality.

24:51

You see? So the atheist has to borrow from the Christian worldview to make sense of his own. But if we, if we go to countries where they don't have

24:56

Christianity, like, you know, they don't, they're not all raping and murdering each other. Do you know what I mean though? It's like, there is some inbuilt morality.

25:04

Because they're in the image of God. We're all in the image of the same God. Yeah. But what I'm saying is, is like, is, is, so the

25:10

Christian and the atheist, if we scan along that perspective, uh, you say that they, you know, that one can justify the claim and one can't.

25:17

That's right. Is what I'm saying to you is, is that you're not born with the innate idea of saying that if someone didn't, if you, if it wasn't written in your text that you would commit the crime because you had no more back into it.

25:29

Just, I'm saying, cause there's other countries where if we, if we go to like a, the middle of Papua New Guinea. Yeah. And they, they've never heard of Christianity.

25:35

Never heard of Jesus. They're not raping and murdering each other. Well, they do. They do rape and murder. I'm sure. I'm sure there is a percentage.

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The question is, and here, here's, here's the, here's the rub. But not, but it's not, it's not enough to then say that it's not, I don't think it's enough of a percentage to then say,

25:48

Oh, it's because. Here's the, here's the rub though. Those, um, pagans polytheists in Papua New Guinea, they can't justify, yeah, they can't justify the condemnation of rape and murder that takes place in their society because they're in the image of God.

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And we're all in the image of the same God. We all know God in our heart of hearts and we all have his law written within us.

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This is why atheists and Christians can look across the aisle and say that rape was wrong.

26:16

But the only the Christian has a worldview that can make sense of what they're saying. The atheist can say, that's absolutely wrong.

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And then if you really ask him, was it really absolutely wrong? They'll say, well, no, not absolutely wrong. It's all subjective.

26:30

There's no absolute moral arts. I'll give you Dawkins statement. Dawkins in his book, a river out of Eden says, uh, the universe

26:36

Richard Dawkins, uh, yeah, he says, um, uh, that in river out of Eden, he said that there's ultimately a cosmic indifference.

26:44

He says, there is no good. There is no evil. There's no good. There is no evil. Now that's him being a consistent atheist at the moment, but he won't live that way because in order to live and breathe and move in this world, he has to borrow from God, borrow capital from the

26:58

Christian worldview in order to make sense of his world. He'll say there's no absolute morals, but then he'll live in such a way as there actually are.

27:06

So he'll live like a Christian, like an image bearer of God, but he'll deny it with his profession of atheism.

27:12

So what's interesting here in terms of like someone says, really, you want a society where people, um, all love

27:19

Jesus and they all like, or, you know, they all believe that loving God and loving neighbor are the most important thing.

27:24

You want a society that actually points to God's laws of, of, of standards of justice. I would say absolutely.

27:30

But so does the atheist. The atheist also wants his ultimate. So for example, let's ask it the other way.

27:36

You asked a moment ago about, you really want people to like me as a secularist, not like to live in a Christian society.

27:41

I would say, well, I'm now a Christian living in a secular society and it's being demanded of me that I follow secular law and Demas.

27:49

I follow Demas's rule as the ultimate and Demas right now says that it's perfectly acceptable to murder your child in the womb.

27:57

So I'm now as a Christian being asked to submit to the ultimate of our current system. And that's a secular system.

28:03

Everybody has an ultimate. Well, I mean, the only, the only flaw I see in that is that you're not, you're not told you have to, so you're not told you have to have an abortion.

28:13

Just I'm saying though, like no, no one's telling you like, Hey, you better, you better go have an abortion. In China they do.

28:18

Yeah. But that's, that's, that's, I mean, China has many problems. You know, we're not talking about a dictatorship.

28:25

It's somewhat of a democracy and we can get into a China debate. They're trying to tell us we have to perform gay weddings or bake a cake for a gay wedding.

28:35

And you agree with that? No, we wouldn't. But that's the same, the same principle, the same discussion.

28:40

Fair enough. Fair enough. And that's the point. But I'm saying like, in terms of like, you know, no one's telling. So I think the idea of democracy is that we all have this sort of guideline and you can still be a

28:50

Christian because I'm saying no one's trying to burn down your chest. And you go China. I mean, what they do to Christians in China is crazy.

28:55

You know what I'm saying? The way they get, they, they, they edit their Bible. Right. You know, and they, they, they, uh, they, they don't let them, uh, practice the religion, how they want to practice it without harming anyone.

29:06

They just want to, you know, they shut down their churches. You know, how the Christians are treated in China is disgusting.

29:12

Yeah. The church is booming now too. I'm sure it is. But we can't, you know, and that's why when we, you know, and I do understand the point that, uh, my friend made, the ginger king, as you call him.

29:21

I don't understand the point you made. The ginger king. The ginger king. I do understand that's a very good point. In China they're forced to have abortions, but we can't, uh, judge, uh, uh, a work in democracy based on a dictatorship.

29:34

Can I ask you the question? And I'll let Marcus ask. Let me ask, let me ask you this question because I think it's an interesting point when you say, but you're not being asked to have an abortion.

29:44

You're not being forced. Well, I would say that was the common argument and it needs to be brought up because it's, it's, it's really, really interesting.

29:52

The parallels, that was the common argument for those who actually own slaves. They were owning black people.

29:58

They were abusing them. When people were saying, listen, you can't do that to that human being. You cannot treat them this way.

30:04

You, you cannot do that. The slave owners did say, and it's on record, they said, don't want a slave, don't have one.

30:14

And what's interesting is in the way that you frame that, Jamali, I think it's important to highlight and to think about together is when you say, yeah, but nobody's asking you to have an abortion.

30:22

I would say, well, God commands me to love my neighbor and I would want to stand against any injustice against black people in the past, against slavery today, against a child sacrifice today.

30:35

I think that God's commandments are absolute and I do think it's important in a society.

30:41

Here's the thing. I think that the people who are professing faith in Jesus during the time of slavery,

30:48

I think they were wicked. They're behaving wickedly. And I think that they needed to be called out and condemned.

30:54

I think that they were on a completely wrong side and they were of course abusing the text of scripture.

31:00

They were contradicting themselves in scripture. I think that the society that was around at that time with slavery as legal, they had a moral obligation to fight against what was accepted as the norm.

31:13

And in this case, we're talking about abortion. I know Jamali, it's accepted. People just take it for granted today.

31:18

But I think that we're going to find a hundred years from now, people are going to look back on this and say, I can't believe we were ever involved in such a thing.

31:25

Which may be the case. But also if we're talking about this democracy, do you appreciate that? Even though we say, say, say you, so you, it's the point

31:33

I made before, no one's telling you you have to have an abortion and you know what I'm saying. But then on the flip side is you are allowed legally to go protest it.

31:41

So there has to be some appreciation. Thanks to the Christian worldview. You know, if we look at religious dictatorships ever, religious, religious, religious countries ever, you know, that democracy does.

31:52

Christians have failed in history. Yeah. You know, it fades away. You know, we have to kind of look at that, you know. But we can't. Yeah, no, we can't.

31:58

You're right, Jamali. And I'm going to say this. It's important for any Christian to not skirt the issue. If we ever see failures from Christians in history, it's important for me not to whitewash that.

32:07

Yeah. But but watch this. I can, as a Christian, look at the failures of Christians in history and I can point to how

32:13

I know they were wrong because they said one thing with their mouth about what they believed, but they contradicted it with what they did.

32:19

In other words, they weren't living according to the thing they said they were standing on. So that's important. I can point to that.

32:25

But and this is important, too. And this is not just a flippant thing. And you said something, too. I watched one of your episodes. It was hilarious.

32:31

Who are you talking to? Some dude you were talking to and he was throwing out all these like statistics and all these things.

32:37

And you you said in your comedy bit afterwards, you're like, don't you hate when you talk to people and they throw out like stuff at you and you're like,

32:42

I need to learn more because they're just throwing stuff out. And I have no idea if it's true, right? I thought that was like it was insightful and it was good.

32:51

But truly look this up and I can even get your resources. All these things that you that you and I take for granted today in our in our cultures, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom against warrantless searches and seizures, all this stuff, the right to remain silent.

33:07

Truly, truly, Jamali, that is stuff that didn't come to the world through the atheistic or secularistic worldview.

33:12

It came to the world through the Christian worldview. There's an objective basis for those things. So, yes, when

33:18

I stand out of an abortion mill and I get to preach the gospel and call out to women to help them, that's a benefit of the

33:24

Christian worldview. Atheistic regimes in history didn't give people freedom of speech. They don't.

33:30

Atheistic regimes in history don't give people the gift of freedom from warrantless searches and seizures.

33:36

It is explicitly the law of God that gives you those things. And we're all the beneficiaries of it.

33:41

So thank God for Christianity, even though it's waning today in our culture and society today.

33:47

So you and I both, we all, we live as beneficiaries of the work of Christians before us.

33:53

Now, don't get me wrong, Jamali. I would never want to say that there was some utopia behind us.

33:58

There was hard stuff. There was failings. There was suffering. There were screw ups. There was sin. But truly, what we have today before us in terms of blessings and goodness has come from the biblical worldview.

34:08

Yeah. Do you think, do you so accept that it comes from other religious texts as well? I mean, you know, sort of like the ideas of Islam and stuff like that and Judaism and all these other religious texts and sort of, you know,

34:23

Greek, you know, in democracy and stuff like that. All these other political worldviews have come from other things, not just Christianity.

34:31

So, yeah, in terms of so, say, for example, if I was to address the issue of Islam, Islam is interesting because Islam comes after the time of Christ and the scriptures have already been given to us.

34:44

Muhammad was the last one. Muhammad, yeah. And Muhammad lived around Jewish and Christian tribes. So he heard their stories.

34:50

He interacted with them. And what Muhammad did is he borrowed stuff from the

34:56

Bible and then he ended up changing the message and distorting the message. And so, yeah, there's a lot of commonality in terms of things you'll see in Islam that are common with Christianity.

35:04

And that would be because ultimately of borrowing and in terms of someone says, what about Judaism?

35:10

I would say, well, I believe that Christianity is true Jewishness. It's true because it's following the

35:16

Jewish Messiah. I have the Torah and the Tanakh. I accept every word of the Old Testament. And I believe the

35:22

New Testament is the fulfillment. Yeah. So, of course, you would see that. You'll see the the parallels in many ways.

35:29

I think a lot of times, too, like Jamali, I don't have any question at all. If you and I went out to have dinner together, you and I would probably respond to an injustice that we saw the same way.

35:41

We would feel the same. Of course. And I believe that there's common common ground between us because we're both made in the image of God. And you're going to see a lot of that.

35:47

And, dude, you were you were born and raised in London. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're you're also the recipient of a culture that was given to you by the biblical worldview in many ways.

36:00

Yeah. I mean, well, you can't shake your Christianity. I mean, both sides of it. You know, I mean, I come from a, you know, and I had

36:07

I'd be with this episode, I'm trying hard to get away, get away from race. But, you know,

36:12

I'm half Jamaican and we didn't have a good side of Christianity. And we're still feeling that today, you know?

36:18

Yeah. So, you know, so to say, you know, I've had the good influence of Christianity. Yeah, I don't.

36:24

And I think, you know, there are certain laws and certain things that come from the Bible. I think it's ridiculous to say that it didn't. You know? Yeah. But I've also had

36:31

I've also seen the the bad side of it. I've seen the side of that, that that endures slavery.

36:36

My ancestors truly on the side that sort of sort of hard gave him this sort of hard laden

36:41

Christianity. Right. Still affects my country today. Yeah, exactly. You know, I've seen both sides of this perspective, you know?

36:48

True. There there are people in history that we could both rightly condemn that professed love for Jesus and abused other human beings.

36:58

But just take this as a thought experiment. As a Christian, I get to condemn those

37:04

Christians in history for what they did because I have an objective basis. And I say, you're not what you're saying is inconsistent with what you're doing.

37:13

You said you stand on the scriptures, but you abuse these people. That violates God's commandments. But watch this.

37:19

If you don't have Jesus, Jamali, and I mean this with respect and complete respect.

37:24

If you don't have Jesus and a biblical worldview, you don't have any real basis to complain about what anybody did to your ancestors, which

37:32

I think is abhorrent. Yeah, I think it's I think it's evil and wicked and unjust what happened. But I get to complain as a

37:38

Christian. But if you don't have Jesus. Yeah. How do you complain if your ancestors were fish?

37:43

Well, I mean, you kind of I mean, I think I think you we get into a weird space here where we say one text owns morality and you become the arbiter of what only you have morality.

37:57

I think then we come into a dangerous space. You know, I think I think I think, you know, you say, what what basis do you have of that?

38:02

The fact that, you know, me, I forget about the fact I'm not Christian or whatever. The fact that I don't know my ancestors names.

38:10

Yeah. The fact that I know that, you know, certain people that, you know, I have genetic traits in my

38:16

DNA is because my ancestors were raped. Just I'm saying, you know, when you have when you have these specific things, right, you know, to then say, oh, but you because you don't have this particular piece of text, how do you know it's wrong?

38:29

Can I share what I mean by that? No, no, no. I'm offended by any way. No, no, no. It's a good it's a good thing.

38:35

You're you're you're showing the solidarity and the connection. Right. And that's important. Yeah. But watch if if.

38:43

What I believe about the world and your ancestors and me and you is not true, that we're not in the image of God, that we're not uniquely and wonderfully made by God.

38:53

We don't have inherent value and dignity. Right. We are all we weren't created with a purpose. If that's not true and if it's true, the common theme of today and education and secular universities, if all of us came from stardust, if our ancestors crawled out of the soup.

39:10

So do you not believe in evolution? I'm someone's trying to get the perspective now. You don't I do not believe our ancestors were fish. How do you how do you think the world is?

39:17

Well, there's differing opinions, even amongst Christians in terms of looking at something like 2000. Yeah, I've never heard that.

39:24

I would say between six and 10 ,000 years old. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Some people would say like between six and ten.

39:30

Some people have gone as much as 20 ,000. Yeah, I'd say it's 20 ,000. Yeah. And so and there's fantastic Christians who are scientists and geologists that can make great arguments for that based upon the scripture and observational evidence like dinosaurs and stuff.

39:43

Absolutely. You do believe in dinosaurs. Of course. But you think dinosaurs were I know you don't have a specific date you're willing to stand by.

39:51

So you say, I know it's too much. Some people say, I know it's 20 ,000. Well, no. Yeah. So, for example, the issue of dinosaurs,

39:57

God says he creates the land creatures on the sixth day. We're included in that. Right. So according to the scriptures, you would see dinosaurs and humans living ultimately together in the same space of time.

40:08

Absolutely. Yeah. And not only do I believe it because of the certainty that God gives to us in his word, but observational evidence corroborates that story.

40:15

So, for example, and this is shown a number of times, you should check this out. The last couple of years,

40:21

Scientific American published an article where they found viable blood cells and tissues inside of a T -Rex's bones.

40:27

How do you find viable blood cells and tissues inside of a T -Rex when they died 65 million years ago?

40:34

So what you have is even observational evidence can point you to the fact that that dinosaurs did not die off 65 million years ago, but actually are fairly recent in history.

40:45

And there's a whole biblical line of discussion and reasoning through that question, but it comes down to worldview.

40:52

Yeah, but I think there's a sense of, I mean, you could say worldview, but there is a sense of scientific data that correlates these bones of a certain age.

41:01

Because the thing is, I think the weird situation we can get into when it comes to science, and we're both not scientists here, you know, we might be debating flat earth, but if we get to this weird thing where we take science, because there's two different types of science.

41:17

There is a science where you're trying to find an answer to back up your own claim, and then when you're doing it unbiasedly.

41:26

And you see a lot of the science that does come out, because I know there's a certain museum that has a

41:33

Christian... The Creation Museum. The Creation Museum. Yeah, my buddy, Ken Ham. Yeah, Ken Ham. You know, it's like, you know, and all those scientists are

41:41

Christians. Yeah. So there might be a, you know, there is a sort of, you know, like you're trying to find a...

41:47

But it's a myth to say that these scientists are neutral. So, for example, when

41:52

Dawkins examines evidence, how do you think... This is from an atheist perspective. No, no, I'm saying it from both sides. I don't think

41:57

I'm just crapping on Christians. No, no, no. I'm saying, everyone gets it. Yeah, totally. Everyone gets a divided view, you know what

42:03

I'm saying? Nobody's neutral. Nobody's neutral. But we do have to be honest with the evidence. But check this out,

42:08

Jamali. Check this out. Like, take this phrase as an example. I would say that that everybody examines that evidence based upon their worldview.

42:18

So watch this. A couple of years ago, they find this prehistoric shark floating around. They catch it.

42:24

They bring it to an aquarium. Right. Crazy. Prehistoric shark. This scientist has this thing behind him.

42:32

Goblin shark. You can look it up. It's a goblin shark. Yeah. It's a goblin. Yeah, check it out. He has it.

42:37

He has it sitting behind him, right? This thing's only lived for like 24 hours in the tank. And it's like they're looking at this dinosaur.

42:43

And they're like, jaws are on the floor. You know what this guy says? He's like, this is the most amazing discovery ever.

42:49

These died 65 million years ago while it's swimming behind them.

42:54

Do you see how worldview impacts us? Even when the evidence is staring you in the face, you'll reject what is right in front of you because of your worldview.

43:01

Even when it's swimming close enough to bite you on the butt. And so, but going back to the issue that you brought up of like, we were talking about like science and like origins and morality.

43:12

Right. Yeah. I mentioned, I don't believe our ancestors are fish. Yeah. Well, watch this. We're talking about morality.

43:19

Jamali, if the story today of origins and metaphysics and who we are today, our ancestors were fish.

43:27

We're all just stardust. If Dawkins is right and there is no good and there is no evil. If, if the professor of biology at Cornell university is right, and he says there is no good and there is no evil, it's only what is.

43:41

Then that means that you and I don't get to make any moral complaints at all. Because watch, you can say,

43:47

I have solidarity with my ancestors. And I respect that highly because I'm a Christian. But if you said

43:52

I have solidarity with my ancestors, I would say, fantastic. What does that have to do with anything?

43:58

Who says what happened was wrong? Objectively, morally wrong. If that was just protoplasm bumping into protoplasm, we have no moral complaints.

44:09

We may not like it. It may be uncomfortable to us, but it's not wrong. If Dawkins is right, what happened to my ancestors, your ancestors and anybody's ancestors was not wrong.

44:18

It's just what is. Yeah. You see? So that would be my, as a Christian, how

44:24

I want to address it. And here's the thing. Watch this. I think that it's depraved, deplorable when we treat other human beings like that.

44:33

If like, for example, if you if you if you said to me, Jeff, like what happened to my ancestors was evil, it was wrong.

44:40

I think I should come into that with solidarity with you and say, yes. Right. We should grieve over those things.

44:45

We should grieve over slavery. We should grieve over murder. But we only get to grieve, Jamali, if we approach it with a biblical worldview in any meaningful way.

44:54

Because if our ancestors were fish and we're just stardust, then it's just what happened. Yeah.

45:00

Stop complaining. And I think that that take that thing that robs you and I of our value and worth.

45:07

Yeah. And that's why you need Jesus, Jamali. Oh, do I? Yes. Is this what this is? Yeah. Is this what you treat me in there?

45:14

Yeah. You gave me some barbecue. Yeah. You got inside Jesus now. So. You stitched me up.

45:23

The hell's got you got the bear to grab me just in case. Yeah, that's right. I ain't even yet. Do you guys do you guys want to ask

45:29

Jamali anything? You want to talk to me? Yeah, I just wanted to ask Jamali, like where your standards come from for morality and and what is just and unjust?

45:37

Where does that where does it where do you base yours? Oh, for me personally? Yes. My my sort of what we're going to call it spirituality is

45:48

I'd say personally, I sort of I've gone through, you know, and I read a lot and I've gone from many perspectives.

45:53

I try to to to to experience life and hear different philosophies and hear different things.

45:59

So, you know, like I'll speak to I'll speak to a man like Jeff and you who told me his perspective on the world and I'll sort of gauge it to see what feels right with me and sort of go from there, you know.

46:09

So, yes, I don't I don't have. But but to say, do I do I fully believe in a in a morality of one book?

46:16

Yeah. So so my question is, no, it's not really right. So my question would be, if you don't believe in an objective morality and everybody's morality is based off of personal experiences, how can you say that your experience is your your the morality you base is is good or bad compared to, let's say, a slave owner?

46:38

Mm hmm. Well, because because I do agree with you. I think I think I think we evolve with thought.

46:44

And and and I think that there is a certain thing that like and I think there is a inbuilt morality based in us.

46:52

And I think some people don't have that morality, maybe, or some people don't, you know, listen to that part of the morality.

46:57

But I think there's something inbuilt in us like, you know, someone didn't have to tell me killing my mom was wrong.

47:03

You know what I'm saying? I didn't need a book to tell me that I didn't need. I guess it's my personal. We would agree with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree with you.

47:09

Don't do that. It's in you. It's in you. You got your mind right now, so you don't know that. She's about to grill me right now.

47:16

But how do you know? Did Jesus tell you? I don't know. All right. I didn't know, but you know, and like, you know, for me,

47:22

I had that, you know, and I think that there is a certain inbuilt morality. And I think as as as life progresses and, you know, that's why

47:30

I don't disrupt the claim of saying that, you know, when when Jeff said I don't agree with Jeff when he says all morality was come straight from the

47:37

Bible. I don't personally believe that. I think I think I do think, you know, certain perspectives did because we've had so many philosophers and we have so many schools of thought.

47:46

And I think what we've done is we've evolved with ideas and we've evolved with thoughts where we've you know, we've come to sort of what we're trying to come to a more connective, more understanding of how to navigate through this weird and wonderful life that we exist in, you know.

48:00

So for me personally, it's that it's more of a, you know, from what what what have come before us, you know.

48:07

So so if morality evolves, was there a time when slavery was OK? No, no,

48:14

I think I think that there's a overall thing I don't I don't personally feel right that there's any time say like if I go back to me, no, knowing when

48:24

I was a kid not to murder my mom. I don't think there's a time where you can whip someone on their back until it bleeds and they look around with sadness in their eyes and you can ever justify that.

48:33

And that's me. So I think I think when we talk about slavery, I think we've been talking about slavery a lot and I'll try to move away from slavery because then it becomes into a weird racial debate.

48:43

OK, but if we're talking about slavery, I think when we talk about slavery, we kind of diminish what it is.

48:50

OK, so we can just we can put in any immoral thing. Yeah, no, I do understand what you're saying. But I don't mind you bringing up slavery.

48:57

But I mean, it's just, you know, I've done a whole series on race and people think that's the only thing I talk about. Do you think there'll be a time where abortion is morally

49:04

OK? Do you know what I think? I think that's an interesting perspective. And I don't know, you know, and I really don't know.

49:10

I mean, you know, I haven't come to this doing this film with a objective view of saying, like,

49:15

I think everyone should have his menus. You know, I don't you know, I think I think it's an interesting debate.

49:21

I really do. I don't think you should receive the death penalty for it. I don't really believe in the death penalty.

49:26

I don't think you should give any government the right to kill its citizens. I don't trust any government that much to have the right to kill its citizens.

49:34

I don't really I don't believe in the death penalty or capital punishment. Personally, do I don't think, you know, my my my my ideas right now on abortion is

49:43

I don't think it should be used as a method of contraception. I don't think it should be a thing that, you know, you know, you just get as many, you know, but I think

49:52

I think it's a very complex issue. And I need to find out more about it before I fully commit to a hundred percent perspective on it.

50:01

But I appreciate that. Yeah, I do. I do think it's a very complex issue. And I think it I think it does come a lot down to ownership of body and it comes down to choice.

50:10

And I think I think I think both sides of the debate need to come to a more of a reality based idea of what the situation is.

50:18

You know, I agree. I think I think I think, you know, the sort of pro -life debate has its flaws and I think the pro -choice debate has its flaws.

50:28

And I think there needs to be a more of an honest discussion in the middle about what this situation is. So I think we

50:34

I think both sides can come a bit too much fire and brimstone. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It gets nasty on both sides.

50:39

It gets nasty on both sides. And I think there needs to be more of a middle thing, a middle ground person. So you would be you'd be open to more of an objective basis.

50:47

That's what I'm trying to do now. I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to understand the real. So if I if we could. So just watch this, because I think it's in terms of more.

50:54

There's a hard issue going on, too, with all of us as we talk about these things. I'll just I'll just thought experiment again.

51:01

If if we could demonstrate. Conclusively and cross the board that in every biological textbook that at the moment of conception, it's by nature, a human being that all the biological say we're agreeing.

51:13

So if we were able to demonstrate. OK, right. Objectively, that at the moment of conception, it is all the biological components of a human being.

51:23

It's just a difference of degree after that of growth. Right. But you who you are now. It was at that moment genetically created.

51:32

Right. At the moment of conception, you are by nature human then and you are the you you are now the genetic code of you, your eye color, everything about you.

51:42

Like you weren't you weren't going to come out purple one day. It was determined you'd come out this delicious caramel color.

51:48

Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. But it is a delicious thing. But but you but is that objectively the truth, though?

51:58

Just because I see. But I think that that's your perception of it. I don't I could have you ready. Have you read any textbooks?

52:04

I listen. I know you're fully more versed on this than I am. I'm not calling you a liar by imagination. But what

52:09

I'm saying is, is there has to be admittance that there is different ideas of thought on that subject.

52:16

I'm saying and that's one of the issues with what I see in the debate is that there is there is a very varied idea of what because some people say that that clump of cells is no more a human being than it is genetically a pig when it's in that clump of cells.

52:32

But that would be important. If somebody made that argument, it would show their ignorance.

52:39

Yeah, because it's not by nature a pig. It's by nature a human. And the only difference biologically speaking, and this is you can't refute this.

52:47

Nobody can. And most abortionists today, when they argue for this, they wouldn't attempt to muster an argument against what they would say.

52:55

Yeah, it's a human and we can kill it. That's the point. It's a human and we're allowed to murder. We're allowed to kill it. They would say kill, not murder.

53:01

But the only difference is size. It's very small level of development. It's not fully developed.

53:07

Neither is a five year old. Neither is a four year old or a nine year old environment. It's in the mother and degree of dependence is dependent.

53:13

We don't kill other human beings in any other situation because of any of those things. But we do in the case of abortion.

53:20

That's why we're so concerned because we can have very strong common ground here if we were just to say, what is it by nature?

53:28

Human. And I think that it's a very slippery slope that you get on when you start saying, I can kill this human being over here because it's not, in my mind, fully developed.

53:38

They did that with black people. They did that with Jews in the Holocaust. I know it looks like a human. It's not a human.

53:43

It's a Jew. You see, that's the point. And by nature, it's human.

53:48

And of course, biblically, God says, image of God, protect it. And so, so, yeah,

53:55

I'm glad we're having this discussion. We can go on for days. I do. One question. I know, I know if we're going to wrap up in a bit.

54:01

Going back to your point, because I remember you saying about the gay cake and stuff like that, the gay cake, the gay cake, the gay cake.

54:09

So do you think that you as a man in America right now, and female, that you are being restricted to live as a

54:20

Christian? Do you know what I'm saying? Because we were talking about the idea and you said, they're making us do gay marriages in the church and making us do gay cakes and stuff.

54:30

So do you think that you are being restricted to be a Christian in this country? That's a really good question.

54:35

I would say not quite yet, but like the writing's on the wall.

54:41

You think so really? Yeah, I would say. In what way? Well, I mean, we have several cases already in the U .S. of, we know people that are

54:48

Christians, they were bakers and they were, they had to close their business down. Friends of ours. Had to pay, I don't even know how many.

54:53

$130 ,000. $130 ,000 because they wouldn't bake a cake for a gay couple. So it seems like the liberal agenda is definitely trying to force that upon us.

55:04

And that's why we're trying to fight against it. You see, because you say liberal agenda, I find it interesting, especially, especially because it's not, it's really still quite different than it is back home.

55:15

Where Christianity or religion is sort of so interlinked with politics. Do you know what

55:20

I'm saying? Because saying liberal is a political idea. You know what I'm saying? It's sort of like how, because some people, you know,

55:26

I've met, especially in England, like a lot of Christians are very liberal. Do you know what I mean? Right, right, right. There's a lot of -

55:31

It's just cultural. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like, it's just very cultural. Yeah, it's quite a liberal Christianity. Do you know what I'm saying? Where it's more playing a guitar, wearing some sandals.

55:38

Do you know what I'm saying? It's more of that basis, isn't it? So it's quite interesting that over here, it's sort of more like, you know, the liberals are making, make these cakes.

55:46

Where in England, it's more of a, you know, there's - Did you, I'm gonna cut you off.

55:51

Did you hear, did you hear the story? Was it over in England, the story of the guy in Ireland named Daniel from Asher's Baking Company?

55:58

Yes, yes. I think, yeah, because that happened in Northern Ireland or Ireland? Northern Ireland. Yes, because that's part of England. Yes. So, I mean,

56:05

I'm not making a political statement. It's the UK. Just so I could say, I'm not making a political statement there,

56:11

I'm not, you know, I'm not yet. But it's a part of, he has a UK government. When I was in Ireland, I met

56:17

Daniel and I didn't know I was going to meet him. He was at a church I was teaching at and I sat down with him. His is an interesting case because even in his case in Northern Ireland, this guy came in and said, you know,

56:29

I want you to bake this cake. And his family was like, respectfully, we just, we just can't do that. But what's interesting is that gay marriage is illegal in Northern Ireland.

56:38

And he was still persecuted by the state and he lost. And he was obeying not only, as a

56:44

Christian, God's law, but he was obeying Ireland law. And that is that in Ireland, gay marriage is not legal.

56:51

I think it is now. Is it now? Yeah, yeah. Wow. No, Southern. Is it Southern? I'm going to have to refer to my, is gay marriage legal now?

57:00

It is, isn't it? Is it now? I think I remember they had the big thing. But when he did it, Ireland law didn't allow for gay marriage.

57:07

Yeah. So he was in that case, he was obeying even Irish law. But he was, he was still, in a sense, punished.

57:15

He was punished. He was punished by the state because he refused to do something, you know, for a gay wedding.

57:23

And he did something that was consistent with God's law and Irish law and he still was punished. I mean, and it's going to sound facetious.

57:29

I don't mean this because it's going to sound like a disrespectful question, but I really don't mean it in a disrespectful way. Where does it say in that book that you can't bake that cake for a gay?

57:39

Do you know what I'm saying though? Like, it's sort of like, why couldn't he have baked that cake?

57:46

Let me put it in this way. Because he's not, it's not like he's, I mean, because I do understand the debate more of, I don't want to be the preacher in that ceremony.

57:53

I can understand that debate more. But in terms of you baking a cake, you're providing a capitalist service.

58:00

I understand. You're not providing a moral, either way. It's not morality. It's just a capitalist service that you're providing.

58:06

It's like, I don't think if you own a shop and a taco shop and a gay couple walk in,

58:12

I don't know if, I don't think you have the right to say, I'm not selling you a taco. I agree. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm sorry. I don't agree with you there, you know what

58:19

I'm saying? Because I think you have a capitalist duty. It's a category error. Yeah. But it's a category error.

58:24

And I appreciate the question. But it's a category error when someone says, I don't think you should be able to say to a person, I'm not going to feed you because you're gay.

58:30

But we're not talking about feeding somebody a taco. We're talking about something being used for a ceremony to celebrate an idea.

58:38

So for example, if somebody came in to, let's go back to it because it's important.

58:46

And I think it hits the point because we all feel the same. We have the same hatred for this. If somebody back in the days of any slavery.

58:53

Oh, you love a bit of slavery. I do because it's common ground. You love a bit of slavery metaphor. It's common ground.

58:59

It's common ground. If somebody said, hey, I go to the shop, I want you to build me some shackles and a nice whip.

59:08

What's the whip for? Is it for a horse? No, no, no. It's for these guys I'm capturing over here.

59:13

I want you to build me nice shackles and a nice whip. Like, but I know what you're using that for. I'm not doing that.

59:19

Hey, capitalist society. You don't have any right to decide like not to serve me. Yeah, I do. I do get what you're saying.

59:25

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But I mean, I think it's weird to kind of use this.

59:31

I know you're using it purely as a metaphor and it's a morality. A hundred percent. I do understand that.

59:36

But there is a massive difference between two people who decide they love each other.

59:42

You see, there's a world view. No, but if it's a difference, man. Do you think it's the same crime of morality?

59:51

Do you not see that there's a difference there? Because I mean, do you think that there is? No, no, no. I'm just using it in the sense of a moral issue.

59:59

I was asking a question. Not comparing homosexuality with or any transgenderism with slavery to capture human beings and beating them.

01:00:08

I'm in the sense of just a moral issue. So if somebody asked me to celebrate anything that God has spoken clearly about in terms of don't do that.

01:00:17

I think that it's persecution ultimately and oppressive to demand that I do something that would celebrate something

01:00:24

God says is not good. Do you think if you bake a cake for someone you're celebrating it or do you think you're just providing the service? Because I know what is the cakes being used for.

01:00:30

It's being used to celebrate an idea, right? Now, here's the thing. I have affection and love for people who are homosexual.

01:00:39

I care about gay people. I love them with a passion. I want them to know Jesus. However, when it comes to someone saying

01:00:47

I want you to do something that would violate what Jesus says is God's created order.

01:00:53

I think that as a Christian you have a right to oppose. Now, and your question was ultimately not about like the ins and outs of that.

01:00:58

It's about like do you feel like that that's actually coming on you now in the sense of persecution in the nation? And I was just bringing up an example like with Daniel in the

01:01:04

UK. He struggled with that. It's happened in our own nation. I think it's getting worse in his article today from a famous gay activist talking about the fact that Christians should be punished.

01:01:14

For their rejection of the idea that homosexuality is a good thing.

01:01:20

Christians should be punished. So, it's coming. Now, watch this. This is awesome, Jamali. Check out how like this works. Seriously, people have said in the past America still has laws in the books that say blasphemy is a crime.

01:01:32

There's blasphemy laws on the books in the United States because it was a Christian culture. Do you think that's right? Do I think it's...

01:01:38

Yeah, blasphemy should be a crime? And it depends. Depends on how you mean that, right?

01:01:44

But here's the point. Every law, every system has blasphemy laws.

01:01:50

In the US before when this was a more Christian culture, blasphemy against who? Jesus. But today, it's not blasphemy against Jesus that's against the law.

01:01:58

It's called hate speech. And it's blasphemy against the LGBT culture. So, every law has it.

01:02:05

Every system has its heresies. Every system has its blasphemy laws. Every system has its theocracy, the ultimate standard.

01:02:12

It's a question of which ultimate, what standard? And today, we're in a situation where we've moved away from a

01:02:17

Christian culture and Christian law to now the blasphemy laws have switched. It's not blasphemy any longer to denigrate

01:02:23

Jesus, but it is blasphemy to say that homosexuality is sin or to preach it in the street.

01:02:29

We've had friends have been arrested in the UK and in Canada for simply standing on a street and mentioning that homosexuality is sin.

01:02:37

Yeah, do they say that or did they say, you know, fags go to hell? Our friends wouldn't have said that.

01:02:44

No, no, no, I was saying your friends would, but our friends wouldn't do it. You've got those, what are they called? The Westboro. Westboro, evil.

01:02:49

They're not our friends. For the record, Westboro is not our friends. Evil, disgraceful.

01:02:55

They denigrate the gospel. I'll be honest with you. I would probably, if I was in like an event, and I saw Westboro Baptists there doing what they were doing,

01:03:02

I would probably ignore for a moment the people that don't know Christ that I would want to talk to.

01:03:08

And I would go for Westboro Baptists and confront and condemn them for their denigrating the gospel with their hateful, awful behavior.

01:03:16

But to answer your question, I've got video footage. My friend merely read the text of Romans 1 where it talks about homosexuality, just read it in England, and he was arrested for reading

01:03:27

Romans 1 from the Bible. And that's where we are today, because every place has its ultimate.

01:03:35

It's a question of which ultimate is true. And that's why I want you to know Jesus, Jamali. I got a hypothetical question for you.

01:03:41

So if there was a 40 -year -old man that was a pedophile and was going to marry, say, a five -year -old boy, and they asked you to do stand -up for his wedding.

01:03:57

Yeah. Would you, one, do it? Two, would it be right for the state to obligate you to do it?

01:04:04

No, of course I wouldn't do it. Right. But it's the same thing. Is it flights and hotel? No. Do you know the book on that?

01:04:13

Is that a gig on for this? Obviously, I'm joking. But no, look, again, it's, and I do understand the question.

01:04:24

I do understand it's a hypothetical, and I think we need to ask hypotheticals here. But I do think we run into this weird ground when we talk about one thing.

01:04:31

And I know it's my perspective. And my perspective is that I don't think being gay is as bad as being a pedophile.

01:04:38

And you could say, well, how do you know that? I just believe that. They love each other. There are two people that love each other.

01:04:43

Yeah, but the thing is, if we're talking about pedophilia, it's a weird ground we're getting into now.

01:04:49

But we're talking about having sex with a child kills that child. Do you know what I'm saying? It can kill that child, having sex with a child.

01:04:56

Do you know what I'm saying? We're talking about two adults making a consensual decision. Do you know what I'm saying?

01:05:02

And then to say that, oh, but what about a nonce? And it's like, yeah, but we're talking about a five -year -old child who can't make a decision.

01:05:09

You don't know your sexuality at five. Do you know what I'm saying? You're still trying to find who you are as a person.

01:05:15

But you agree with the moral premise that if something is, you believe, immoral, you shouldn't be obligated to do anything for it.

01:05:22

I do. I don't think you should be morally obligated to go. I don't think you should be forced to go to the wedding or none of that.

01:05:30

But I think we get into a weird ground when we have a system of, like, you're there to provide a particular service, financial service, capitalist service, and then you start picking and choosing who you decide.

01:05:43

Now, and I might be wrong on that. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not, you know, I'm pretty open -minded to that, you know, and I think that, but then at the same time,

01:05:50

I believe in freedom. So there is a, you know, there is a - That's why you need an objective standard. That's why you need

01:05:55

Jesus, Jamali. I mean, you say that, you say that, Jeff. I haven't done sinning yet. Let me, a couple more years of sin and I'll come back.

01:06:02

Yeah, let me enjoy my life a little bit and then I'll come back. You really enjoy life. But, you know,

01:06:08

I won't play with you. I know, I know. But, you know, but I think that even though I do understand your question and obviously

01:06:14

I wouldn't do the gig, but I think it's, I think it's very chalk and cheese and I think it's a weird ground to, you know, try and link it.

01:06:21

It's very what? Chalk and cheese. I don't know. Chalk and cheese means - Chug and cheese. Chalk and cheese.

01:06:26

It's, did you say chug and cheese? No, chalk. Chalk? Chalk. Chalk? No, not chalk.

01:06:33

Chalk, right? Chalk. That's what we're talking about. Chalk, brother. Yeah, true. We're talking about chalk. Is it like you're talking about chalk?

01:06:39

Oh, chalk. Chalk, is that what you're saying? Chalk. Chalk, isn't it? This - With your trunk.

01:06:46

Chalk and cheese means two totally different things. Great. Right, they're both - I thought you said chugging cheese.

01:06:52

Yeah, you're chugging cheese, brother. You're chugging cheese, bro. All right, bear, you're chugging cheese, bro. I would say liquid cheese is a fairly new -

01:07:01

Can't just say all this stuff, I had a really fun time. I'm glad you did, man. I had a really good time. I really enjoyed that. Yes. No, I'm sorry.

01:07:07

I'm sorry for - We loved having you. Yeah, no. No, it was awesome. I'd love to come back. This is how we do the show. I'd love to come back. You can come back anytime. Thank you so much.

01:07:12

Yeah. So we're going to finish up the show today. It was awesome having Vice here. I think we recorded this ourselves as well.

01:07:21

That's the whole show. Yeah. That's for now. Yeah, over an hour. We didn't even take any breaks. I do have one clip

01:07:26

I would be in sin if I didn't play for Jamali. Oh. And hopefully this doesn't break any sort of copyright things for you, but here we go.

01:07:34

Your beard is good. That's it. Your beard is good.

01:07:40

Oh, three. That's it. We're going to play that for people with delicious beards. And you have a delicious beard, sir. Yeah, you're welcome.

01:07:45

Very delicious beard. Thanks, man. Oh, thank you. You're really welcome back anytime. Appreciate it, man. All right, guys.

01:07:51

So this has been Apologia Radio. Thank you guys for joining us. Don't forget, guys. You can go to apologiastudios .com.

01:07:56

Get more content. You guys can sign up for all access. Partner with us in the mission to bring the gospel around the world.

01:08:02

Don't forget, guys. The good news. God becoming a man in Jesus. Living perfectly, righteously.

01:08:08

Dying for sinners and rising from the dead. Call the gospels to turn from sin to trust in Christ. Receive forgiveness and salvation.

01:08:15

That was Luke the Bear. Peace out. Joy the Girl. See ya. Marcus King Ginger. See you later.