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Join the Laborer's as we discuss our responsibility to our children in the local church.
Welcome to the Laborer's Podcast. Thank you for watching. Tonight we're going to be talking about children in church or children's church. Which should we do?
Stick with us. Welcome to the Laborer's Podcast which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify and iTunes.
Now let's join our laborers for tonight's.
Broadcast. What's up guys? How you doing? I'm doing good. The comment lines for you guys who are watching are open. Ask a question. Let us know you're there. Say hello. We'd love to hear from you. Let's get three things out of the way first and try to do them quickly so we can get into the topic at hand.
First of all, we want to welcome our newest laborer, Randy McCoy. Randy, welcome to the Laborer's Podcast. Welcome to the Truth in Love.
Network. We're glad to have you. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Happy to be here. Briefly tell us about yourself. I am the associate pastor of a church here in Florida. Church in the glades, not by the glades.
Church in the glades. I also have a podcast or YouTube channel called The Truth Seekers with Randy McCoy. I just go into scriptures. Sometimes I call out false teachers. I share my sermons on there as well.
I'm married for, I'm a seven-year-old that is going on 17. So yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. The second.
Thing that I wanted to tackle before we get into tonight's topic is any thoughts on the conference that we just got back from? From you guys that watched at home, you can leave a comment or you guys that spoke and were there.
I'm glad I got through it. That's all I'm gonna say. But I enjoyed it. Good deal.
That's great. He's the token cessationist in the room with all the Muppets around him singing and dancing. It made me chuckle a good bit when I found that and I was like, that is perfect. But yeah, it was an interesting picture of unity to have different shades, different groups, different preferred isms, if you will, all under one roof, worshiping the same God, preaching the same gospel.
It was very edifying for me to see that displayed. I also know that just like last year, we can expect that coming back from the conference, we're gonna hit the ground running. Both with things we want to do with the network and also with spiritual warfare.
That we're gonna come back and it's gonna get challenging in a lot of ways. I can imagine you guys are probably in the same boat, but I know that coming back, it's been a rough transition back into regular life, if you will.
But it was a very refreshing time and so I feel like I'm not necessarily able, but equipped for it.
I was just gonna say, it was just really cool to meet you guys in person because, you know, I'm used to just seeing you on a screen. I mean, except Randy. Randy lives here in Florida, so we've seen each other.
He's taller than he looks online.
Yeah, he is tall. He is tall.
Yeah, he's tall.
Well, we got one guy that might be taller than me, right? What's his name? Dwayne. Dwayne. He is, what, was he 6 '8", right? Or 6 '6"? I don't remember.
I can't remember.
I'm 6 '5", so I've been downgraded to second tallest in the group.
I'll tell everybody I'm 5 '10". That's what my license say.
I just want to echo what Tyler just said about preaching and the unity between everybody and the unity of preaching. We were all preaching the same Holy Spirit, both cessationist and continuationist. Some people, I believe, think that can't happen, but that happened.
And I thought it was a beautiful thing.
Yeah, agreed. I felt like it was over with really fast. Did anybody else feel like it was like a whirlwind? It was over with.
You and Tyler preached 30 minutes sermons, man. Of course it was fast for you.
I'll tell you what, though.
It was like a blast from a fire hose, and then you got to digest it during the downtime. It was good stuff. I enjoyed the short ones because you got hit in the face, and then you got to just breathe with it for a little bit.
It was good stuff.
Well, here's the thing, if we're being, and I like this about it, and I said something about it at the roundtable after one of the days, it might have been Saturday. I like how nobody tried to compete.
I swear I'm going to use, probably not supposed to use that word, but let's be real. You've been to conferences, I've been to conferences online, and there's this, and there's a part of me that's just not.
Hey, John, you're muffled.
Oh, I apologize.
Yeah, I can't hear you.
Is that better?
That's better.
Much better.
All right.
So there's a part of me that feels like as competitive as I am in some areas that I want to try to, I don't know, put my best foot forward and try to make sure that I don't look like a complete nincompoop in front of everybody.
And you have to kind of, you know, something you said that morning, I believe it was you said it, Brother Robin, if it wasn't you, then I apologize. But you said something to the effect of making sure that what you say is not trying to just sound like a good sermon, but is legitimately led of the Holy Spirit.
And I know that I sort of botched that up, but that's what I heard you saying. Whatever the words you said may not have been. And I was thinking as I was there, I've got all these notes on this computer.
And I wanted to try to tie some some things together that I thought would be really good, helpful points for for everybody. But then I said, you know what? That might just be me trying to trying to just preach the house down.
Why don't I just give them the point, the only point that I really want to make and step away from it? And then Brother Tyler and then and it was Brother Dan, I believe, wound up actually preaching part of the points that I wanted.
I said, how about that? So it would have I think it was I think it was great. So I left the pulpit thinking that I had I had not really accomplished what I wanted to accomplish, but my brothers picked up my slack.
And I think that's what the church looks like sometimes.
Hmm. I think I think you're exactly right, because what happens is that the Holy Spirit does what he wants to do by using us to do what he's called us to do. So even if we drop something, others pick it up.
And if, you know, say, say something happens weird, it's because the Holy Spirit has directed it to happen that way so that everyone would be edified the way that they're supposed to be edified. I think it worked out just just great.
I think you did, too. And I was I wouldn't want to do it for anybody else. I really enjoyed it. I think that the topic was a good topic. I'm glad that that and I don't know who I was responsible for it, Rob.
I don't know if you planned it, the plan, the sermon series. And I know we picked our own topics, but I don't know if you planned who would go where. I don't know how that was orchestrated, but it was well done.
And I know that you had a lot of work involved in it. And I appreciate you letting me come and be a part of it. And he's not on here, but Brother Claude and Reframata really did an excellent job of showing hospitality.
And and they were very kind to us in more ways than I'm sure they would care for us to say online. If if I know Brother Claude the way that I think I do, he would he wouldn't want any any kind of praise.
And that's usually what good men are like. So but to the whole Reframata family, I was I was I felt like I was at home.
Amen. Absolutely. They were so kind and so welcoming. Absolutely. Yep.
See, Reframata is a church that we have prayed for in the past. I think I talked about this a little bit at one point that we all kind of know what's going on in each other's churches, that we know how we can be praying for each other's congregations.
But it was different towards the tail end of the conference because now there were faces. Yeah, yeah. Now we pray for Reframata. There are faces that come to mind that I'm going to be thinking of people like Kenny.
Yeah, yep. Yeah.
Which, by the way, you know what he did even after the conference, he had to help us out one last time. Yeah. Keith's car was broken down. So Kenny had to go and fix it.
Yeah. Praise the Lord.
Yeah. Jump into the nice topic. We're going to be talking about children's church. Oh, the third thing I'm jumping into quick, the third thing, and I want to do it quickly. We've not really officially announced it.
I would like to have a rendering of the announcement video, but this is going to be next year's theme for the conference. We're going to have it in Newton, North Carolina again next year. And and here's the little video for next year's conference.
Cling to the cross. Then put both arms around it. Hold to the crucified. And never let him go. Come afresh to the cross at this moment. And rest there now and forever. Then with the power of God resting upon you, go forth and preach the cross.
You guys down with that?
But yeah, nice. We can just preach the the whole chapter of Luke nine and just break it up and run on with it.
Be great. Now, that's an interesting. It's interesting, interesting idea.
Children have one text for the whole conference and just break it up and run with it.
Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. You've got the feeding of the five thousand. You've got the sending out of the 70 coming out on Luke 10. You got to take up your cross. You've got all sorts of stuff. It's fantastic.
The was at the end of Luke nine talks about don't put your hand to the plow and turn back unless you're willing to follow through with it. The whole text is I mean, the whole Bible is great. But Luke nine is like it just hits.
And we've got four years preaching through the gospel of Luke.
Oh, oh, I spent four years.
It'd be cool.
I did for you. I just finished Matthew a month ago. Four years, Matthew.
Praise the Lord. I think Jonathan Foster, Pastor Jonathan, I think he went through Luke and just finished, if I'm not mistaken.
That's yeah, that's sweet.
He did. That's right. We've got a couple in here.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaking of church and preaching children's church versus children in church. We want to come at this with grace because there's tradition involved. There are things that ways people do things. So let's tackle some of these questions.
Thankful to Jay for putting these questions together to help us out in guiding the conversation. But what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of having children's church during the service? Let's start with advantages.
Of having children's church.
Having children's church.
Explain children's church so that people understand what you're asking.
So this is my understanding, and I guess it's coming from my experience, what what children's church is. And again, I'm just basically based on my experience. You'll you'll go through the part part of the service that most of the children can handle.
The singing of the beginning of the service, and then sometimes there'll be a a song played or a certain time during the service that the kids will go out and they will they will have volunteers who lead them in lessons or whatever they do outside of the sanctuary.
Yeah, sometimes there will be a children's sermon down for the children, and then they will be taken out or they can go back to their seats. So children's church is just. The concept of taking children outside of the service, mainly during or most commonly during the preaching time.
So that they can. Do their own thing outside of the sanctuary, learn in their own way. So have you guys do you feel that there are any advantages to and I'll say like this, biblical advantages. We want to look this from a biblical perspective.
So having children's church, taking children out.
There's some advantages. I mean, that's typically the way that that when I was associate pastor at Real Life, we did do that with with some exceptions, obviously. There were some times that children stayed throughout the entire service.
And I will say that the advantages that I saw were that in the case where we had a we had a husband and wife that did what was called Splash. They taught the kids. They both worked at one point, I think, for a school and did a really good job with teaching first and foremost.
But the kids that are in Splash whenever I was going to real life were far and above. Kids that were going to different children's churches and other churches that I've been to in terms of their their knowledge base of scripture.
But now I will say that it might be different than some people's children's church and that there wasn't a huge. Push towards making things childish or, quote unquote, fun time. There was a there was a legitimate push towards teaching them the gospel.
And there the Splash room was a totally separate sanctuary. They had a time of worship that was led by the adults that were in there and the kids that were in there together that were older before they would leave.
And I think that when my girls went through it and. They can tell you the names of all the books of the Bible in order from Genesis to Revelation. They can tell you, well, they can tell you the doctrines of faith inside the Church of God more than probably they could any other denomination.
But in terms of why what we taught and why we taught it are well versed in that. So that would be an advantage, I think, that you could slow down some of the some of the theology to a little bit slower pace so that a child could maybe grasp it better or maybe a kid could ask questions, which is.
It's totally separate issue for me, but the way that I do say Wednesday night services, for instance, is that if there's a if there's a question you have about a portion of text that I'm teaching from, I want you to ask it.
I want you to I mean, you don't have to stop me in the middle of reading, but I want you to leave. I want you to ask you don't you ask the whole church. You might not be the only person who has a question, but that gives me an opportunity to answer it.
And what's the purpose of teaching somebody if you're talking over their head, they don't learn anything? So that's an advantage.
I'm not a huge fan of Children's Church, so I'm just going to stay out of this one until we get to the disadvantages.
Well, I was I was going to say, based on the silence after the question, it seems like most of you guys may lean the other direction.
So imagine that.
Yeah. Well, yeah.
So I'm at a church right now. I came I came into the church that I'm at right now where they have Children's Church. So I agree with Big John that there is some advantages as far as, you know, you can communicate truth to their level and talk to them where they are on a Sunday, on a Sunday morning.
And I know also this might not be a biblical advantage. I think that's what you were asking. But also, you know, parents can kind of focus a little bit more depending on the age of the child. Sometimes it's hard for a parent to focus on a child and focus on a sermon, you know, especially if they're not used to it.
You know, there's a lot of churches that have Children's Church. If you're not used to having your child separate from from you, it can be, you know, a little bit annoying for the for the parent. So I think there are some advantages in that.
That's a question that brings up a question that I wanted to tag on to those who they lean more towards not liking Children's Church and leaning the other direction. It's interesting that the Sword in the Trowel, the Founders Ministry podcast also did their podcast this week on Children in Church and Children's Church.
I can't remember the exact title, but in listening to that, I was thinking. If a child is is loud or disruptive or has a need, you know, I don't think anybody has a. Sees anything wrong with a parent taking that child out or taking an infant out.
So I had to do it many times.
Yeah. So how did that happen at the conference even? Yeah.
So that was a time.
I do think that the sound of children in the worship service is a blessing.
It's a blessing.
It's a blessing because it's a sound of God's faithfulness to the next generation. Now, I don't want to press that too far because we're not to that point yet. But I just want to bring that up.
Sure. Well, the question that that I'm trying to get to is, so how does that that parent who's who's consistently where church doesn't have a volunteer staff nursery or Children's Church? How does that parent who's who's constantly week after week having to take children out?
How do they get fed? And so I'm not asking that in a negative way, just in a positive wanting to understand.
My family and I. I mean, my wife and I, we are those parents. You know what I mean? We got to write. Yeah, I got four. Right.
Yeah, I got four kids.
Yep. Yep.
Yes. For us.
Yeah. So so for us, I think what we do is that this is not something that most people think of this anymore. And and I would agree that, like, yeah, there's an advantage to having the children away in the sense that you can listen to the sermon.
But I think that people need to think of training up their children to sit in church and listen to the pastor as part of their worship, as part of their worship to God. And I think a lot of people think I'm here to hear a sermon.
And that is definitely primarily why you're in church. But you are in church to worship God. And part of your worship to God is raising up your children and training up, training them up in the way that they should go.
And one of the things that children today nowadays expect is that if something is not fun, it's not worthwhile. And so I'm not saying that children's churches and I even feel uncomfortable calling it children's churches.
I feel more comfortable calling it like a children's group.
I'm not saying that church term itself kind of implies that there's a church within the church. Right. Right.
And so, you know, that is something that I'm not not comfortable with, because church is a place where pastors are administering the word of God. And and there's a congregation worshiping God congregationally.
Right. And not divided, not separated. And so when we teach children, I'm not saying all children's churches are bad or children's groups are bad. But you can teach your children everything. Right. I teach my children.
You know, I catechize them. I ask them questions. I have them answer so that they can learn answers from the Bible. But that's not church. You know, I'm saying like church is the corporate adoration of our triune God.
And that's what I ultimately want our children to see most of all. And again, there are advantages to children's church. I well, I used to go to to Randy's church. Right. And I've changed a lot over the years with different things.
And, you know, I've I've had to learn that part of my worship to God is to train up my children when they're throwing a tantrum and I'm missing part of the sermon. And I have to take them out and be like, hey, this is not what we do.
And have a talk with them, depending on their age, obviously, you know, I'm not going to have a full on conversation with my two year old, mostly because she doesn't really listen. But but, you know, everything you have to.
Perceive what you're doing as service onto the Lord. Just like we work for the Lord when we're at work. Sure. You know, or when we you know, if you're a stay at home mom, when you're taking care of the children at home and doing everything, do it onto the Lord for the glory of God.
So I'll be quiet now.
Another thing just from a guy I preach fairly regularly just to add on to what you're saying. One of the things I've learned is that I need to recognize I need to preach to the kids, too. There needs to be something now at the church that I'm I don't even know how to describe it.
First, I've been working with a lot lately. That's not my home church. That may be my home church. I really don't know. We'll see how that works out. But they have a time for a children's sermon. Yeah.
Where the children come up front. We go over something that's children related. But we also try I try to in my regular preaching draw the kids in, you know, say phrases. I know that they will know. Try to make the doctrine, you know, at their level, because sometimes you have folks who are older, you know, 20, 30, 40 years old who are understanding things at a level of a five, six, seven, eight year old, because they're just doing the faith.
Sure. So so so you try to preach to the kids. And in the process, you're going to preach to the adults as well. Preach to the kids, preach to the adults, preach, preach the whole counsel of God across the whole thing.
Amen. And just kind of keep keep in mind that you've got a varied audience. So go deep, go shallow, go in the middle, hit them all and glorify Christ and all of it.
So I'll say this. The advantages that I see in children's church are and I didn't pull any scripture up to try to come out from a biblical point of view. Truthfully, I was thinking about it in terms of what I've seen.
Right. I don't currently have a children's church at my church. They all currently if a child comes to my church in the Sunday morning, I have no children's church to send them to. We're in a we're we're rebuilding things in a lot of ways.
Right. And what I have found, and this is something that I've heard several Pentecostals say over the years is that whenever. When the Holy Spirit is present in the teaching and the worship, I've noticed even children surrender to that, that they know instinctively to that now is the time to listen.
And and I've seen that time and time again. As I said, there are exceptions to when we would not have children's church whenever there was revival meetings or even during the year at regular times after vacation Bible school.
Our children's church pastors would would take a break, you know, vacation Bible school, wear them down and they would they would take a break. They would come into the worship service. I think one of the advantages of having children out of the room sometimes as a pastor is that there are some things that whenever you talk about them, I don't know who's sitting under me that's saved and not saved.
I truly don't know. I have good ideas. Right. And there's a there's a there's a strong possibility. Actually, I know there's there's not just a possibility. I know I have preached against things that that their parents were actively doing at home behind closed doors that I was absolutely unaware of at the time.
And I think that. Sometimes one of the advantages of the children being out of the room is that the parents are more realistic with you whenever they don't have feel like they have to put a front up in front of their kids.
Right. And say what you want to everyone on here is a man. You it takes it takes the Holy Spirit working in you to keep you from fleshing up and getting mad whenever somebody says something that calls you out.
Right. And you have to you have to humble yourself in that in that area. So I think there's times that I've seen men come to to to the front and ask me. To help them pray through a situation or or come to me and tell me that they're that they just realize that they're lost in there and they've been leading their family astray.
And I don't know that they would have felt comfortable enough to do that in front of their kids. Maybe they should. Maybe they shouldn't. Or maybe they would. Maybe they wouldn't. I know they should feel comfortable enough to do that in front of their kids.
But there's that point of view thrown out out there. I know that there's a pile of things you can pick apart about it because it's not the most it can communically sound or whatever.
I'll say I'll say this, and I promise I won't take long, Rob. But when when I see the scriptures, are you like we talk about like scriptural basis? Sure. What I typically see and I'm thinking of like, I think, is it Ephesians six?
Right. Children obey your parents in the Lord for it is right. Mm hmm. So, well, Paul is addressing a congregation, you know, and so his his expectation is that children are right there with the parents in the assembly.
That's true. So if we're looking for like what was normal during biblical times, I think what was normal in the Old and New Testament is that children were were part of the assembly.
So if you think about that in terms of that being a letter, written to the Ephesian church, I I would dare say that that we would have a hard time drawing direct parallels between what the church in Ephesus looked like and what the church and and, you know, LinkedIn look like.
Oh, not not because of of anything other than the fact that these people are meeting in houses day by day. Right. No. And and this wasn't as organized as what, you know, church to be today in the sense that there was set times, set dress code, set.
A set of order of operations, if you will, how of how the service is supposed to be laid out and everything. And I'll be I'll be just as real as I can be with you. I absolutely love order and structure.
I despise just just things thrown in left and right. It eats me from one end to the other. So I'm not saying that I'm an advocate for just chaotic church by no means. Right. But when I think about what's being said here, this is advice that you're to live by every day, not just at church.
Right. You're always supposed to to honor your father and mother. That's a commandment for one. But I mean, so to be well with you and that you may live long on the earth. Fathers do not provoke your children to wrath, but to bring them up in discipline and instruction in the Lord.
I mean, if we were to use that, those those verses, which we should use those verses and how to raise our children. But if we use those verses in the way that church is supposed to be laid out, then it would look like church is supposed to be fathers instructing their children.
And that's and that's really it, as opposed to coming together and being led by whoever God had to put over the church.
Well, I don't think it's saying I'm not using those texts to say, well, the children have to honor their parents in that very moment or the fathers have to, like, you know, do something. I think the point that I'm trying to make is Paul is addressing a congregation where he expects fathers and children in the same room where this is being read.
And if we're talking about order and how to how to order the church, well, Paul laid out how church should be. Right. I think it was first Corinthians that he talks about how church should be organized.
And what I read doesn't say anything about children's church or children's. You're right. Or anything like that. So, you know, when that's what I'm saying, if we're I'm not necessarily saying that, hey, you know, you have a nursery in your church.
It's understandable, right? Young young mothers have to take care of the babies. So maybe a separate space for them just out of practicality. Right. Sure.
It's nice to change the diaper in private. Exactly.
Kids are wild.
Right. And, you know, sometimes you've got to take them out and discipline them.
And sure.
But but the overall trend that I'm seeing in scripture is. Congregational families. I mean, one thing that that makes me uncomfortable about children being separated from their parents is there's no there's no familial worship, as in, you know, they might be learning one thing over there and I'm learning something else over here.
And, you know, maybe the parents can come and talk about it at home. But but it's not the same as when you when you hear from the pastor. You know what I mean? So, for example, I completely understand my children are not going to understand everything that the pastor says.
Sure. But they're going to remember enough that when I bring them home and I talk to them, so what do we learn in church today? They're going to know what I'm talking about because they have a shared experience with me.
That's right. That's right. And what you're doing is you're supplementing what they're learning. Right. And it takes that and it takes that whether they're at children's church or whether they're sitting in the congregation with everybody.
If you put your children in children's church and that's the bulk of their of their teaching is done by somebody in children's church as a father, you are failing. You're you're an utter failure because your job is to continually be teaching them, not just let Sunday be the time that they learn about Jesus, but about every day.
And this is interesting. I never actually. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this way, but it's something that I had opportunity twice to take a youth pastor position over the last 10 years, actually more than twice.
But and I turned it down both times. And I'll tell you why, Brother Jay. My children were in youth at that time or still are in youth. And I told both men who offered me the job, I said, truthfully, I teach my children at home all the time.
Right. We talk about the Bible on the right. There's something biblical going on in this house all the time. That should be the case in every home. But I can't be at your house or anybody else's. I can be in mine.
Right. That's all I can I can be in charge of. I don't I want my children to hear someone else from time to time, open God's word and expound on it and maybe teach them more than I can teach them. I there's a lot I don't know.
And sometimes I hear from another person's perspective, if they hear if they're hearing me behind the pulpit on Sunday and then every day of the week and then hear me in a youth meeting on Wednesday night, they're never hearing an altering opinion at all, ever, unless they look somewhere on the Internet.
And one of the things that I've noticed and working inside the church for the last 15 years is that whenever someone has has been raised up the way that my kids have been, which has been in church since they were in diapers when their dad passes away.
It's like the anchor that they had with Christ. Just just they just lost that. And I've watched lifelong church members just scatter all over the place whenever their dad was their pastor. And then he passed away.
And it's one of those things that. I want my children whenever when God calls me home, I want them to know that dad wasn't the only person who was praying and reading his Bible, that they can sit under another man somewhere and be taught.
And then they would they would be able to tell the difference between somebody who is preaching God's word and in the best way they know how versus somebody who's trying to twist scripture to their own selfish ends.
Right now, that's that's part of my job, I feel like as a dad in teaching my children is also teaching them what to look out for in terms of dangers. Just like I teach them to look both ways before they cross the road, they need to understand there's going to be somebody out there who would try to take advantage of you and use this same Bible that I'm teaching you from as their ammunition.
And you need to know how to disarm them. And. So just as not as a opposing view at all, but as maybe a different angle of the same view that you're looking at.
Yeah, yeah.
You know that we disagree sometimes here. But but I think it's iron sharpened iron. So I think we're.
But but I believe that children should be in the house of God whenever worship. Corporate worship is happening. Children need to see grown man praising and worshiping God.
Amen. Yes.
Because the idea that worship is something that women and children do and not grown men has caused an entire an entire generation of men to think that serving Christ is unmanly. Yeah. The most God honoring thing you can do with your life is to submit and worship Jesus Christ and to do it in spirit and in truth.
And if you get emotional during the during the time, that's fine. Manly men worship God because that's what God's called them to do. And children need to see their dads and their grandpas and their uncles on their knees before a holy God worshiping him.
Amen. Preach in church.
I'm at we do children's church. I'm not I don't share in that conviction. I probably am a bit more with Jay on this one. But we kind of leave that concession open for children's church. But one thing that we do do is that on Communion Sundays there isn't children's church.
And the way we we do communion is that the heads of household are beckoned to the table. And they take the elements and they go back to the pew and they serve the elements of their entire family. And it's little things like that that I think are important to regardless of where we land on this to reinforce the idea that it's one church, one danger that I see with some into what's the word I'm looking for for some for some attempts at children's church is that it becomes a church within a church.
There are some churches I've been at where somebody who grows up in the church does not hear from their pastor at all until they're 16, 17 years old. Yeah. And so you get this idea that their pastor is is the youth pastor or the children's pastor.
And then that's that's the old person pastor over there. Yeah. So it's it. I see a potential to hinder unity when we're segregating the church by age. I say that we we we should say that everybody who does this is sinning.
I'm not saying that at all. But there are caveats are things that I think we need to give some thought to, you know, how can this help and how can this hurt? You know, I see we've got a couple of comments on in the feed here that this person says that they sent their kids to a children's church once and they taught them.
Modalism. Yeah, that's my that's my wife.
That's my kids. Oh, of course. So your kids probably set the teacher straight.
But it's well, they're kind of like, why is this candy corn supposed to represent the Trinity? The candy corn.
Yeah. But there's three colors of candy corn, three persons.
And I was like, well, well, well, they're like, well, well, well, my eight year old was was you know, he was like, this doesn't seem right.
And oftentimes with lessons on the Trinity, just as an example, it's very easy to oversimplify and kind of step beyond the bounds. Yeah, that's not because somebody is that's not because you've got this little lady in the children's church that's just malevolent in their teaching.
It's just. It's just an honest mistake.
It's ignorant on their part.
And here's the thing on the Trinity, if you go that direction, you know, analogies are helpful, but only because they have a true aspect and a false aspect. And you can say, here's what it means positively.
And here's where it goes off the rails. Don't do that. But that was not what my kids received at children's church.
Sure, sure. And so that's that's an example of how things can be done in a way that's less than ideal. Yeah, that there is a cautiousness with with teaching and children's church. In the spirit of James, not many should become teachers, there is weight to this.
Even if they're children, there is weight to teaching the Bible.
There's more weight when you're teaching children. Whenever Jesus talks about teaching people, the ones that he warns the most about is teaching children incorrectly. For it'd be better that you have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown into the seed and to lead one of these young ones astray.
So you had best one of the deepest convictions I have and one of the reasons why I don't have a children's minister or a children's leader or a youth like solid like this is the youth leader every Sunday or Wednesday is because there's a push to get a young, hip kid who maybe knows how to play guitar or something to be the youth leader.
And I don't want that. I want I want somebody who is old enough and is wise enough to to teach children as if they were his own children, to to have the sobriety necessary to to set children down and talk to them about things.
And I want the children to be able to respect him as they would respect any one of their elders and not see a friend and not see somebody who's who's just a bud that they text on the regular or whatever the language is of the day.
Right. I mean, it's not text snap. Right, Meredith? I got it. I got a young man on the couch right now. Listen to me. You don't text anymore. You just snap. Is that right? Yeah, it's not that kind of snap.
It's something different. And it took me forever to figure out how to keep my messages. Every time I'd open it up, it'd go away. And I had to have them resend it over and over and over again. And finally, I give them the phone and I said, make it so it don't it don't go away no more so I can keep.
Anyway, I'm going to jump in for my boy, Randy. Randy, I've seen you try to say a couple of things, but you're going to real quick,.
Several times. I want to hear what's going on in your head.
You got to just jump in. And like if somebody takes a breath, interrupt them.
I don't want to hear you say your words.
Yeah. So, um, my church, the church that I'm in now, like I said, I came into this church where there is children churches, actually very segregated, um, is very segregated. I made a lot of changes and I can't make any more changes.
So I grew up in my ministry. I've been ministry for maybe 17, 18 years. And so I know children church. Right. And me and brother Jay spoke one day. And every time we speak is we're talking for like hours.
Well, we was talking on the same topic. And he kind of convinced me of what, you know, his position. I was hearing him out. And so I kind of lean a little bit more. I don't think having children churches bad or wrong, maybe not as strongly as Jay does, but I lean towards his position in a sense of, um, like, like, um, Big John says, not only is the singing part worship, but the preaching and the hearing of God's word is also worship.
And the children should be part of that as well. And so, um, he kind of lead me, um, convinced me, you know, in that direction. And I kind of like it, um, just that, you know, I'm in a situation where I can't really make that much, uh, I made too many changes already.
Can you believe guys that I'm able to convince him of all these things, but I still can't get him to be a Calvinist? I'm just saying.
Wait a minute, brother. Randy, you're not a Calvinist either?
I'm not.
Praise God.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not anti Calvinist, but I'm not, I'm not a.
Hallelujah.
I knew it was something I liked about you.
Our diversity comes out. So I wanted to, I wanted to tackle that last part of question one. We're still on question one. Hit question four in a unique way because we've already talked about it. And then I think number 10, but for you guys who, who are not for children's church, so I'm going out here on a limb to say that you guys that, that would not have children's church in your, in your fellowship, you're not, you're not one of these parents who are, um, searching for a church and your first questions are, I have children, I'm looking for a strong youth and children's ministry.
You're not those parents. Are you?
No, I didn't think, I didn't think you were, however, however I would ask, um, I would ask the elders of the church, um, what they're going to do in order to support me in the raising of my children.
It's a good question.
That's good. That's good.
And we've talked about, we've talked about the advantages, the positives of both.
Sides.
What I wanted to get to was give you guys a chance to give folks something to chew on. So, so from your perspective, the, the disadvantages of having children's church, just to give folks something to chew on, to think about both sides, since we've looked at the positive,.
Yeah, if I could start. So one of the things, as I was talking, um, and I'm thinking about, you know, the way the church is structured, it makes me ask the question. So if, if during the preaching of the word, the children are separated, the question is, is the pastor of the church, their pastor, right.
And that, that, that, that hit me when I was talking, because it's like, okay, if I'm preaching on Sunday and this team, this, the teens are here, cause we, we've been separate the teens, um, at my church.
So we have the teens here. We have the children here. We have this group here and I'm preaching just to, you know, 21 and over. Am I pastoring the other group of people that came to that, that's, that are quote unquote members of the church.
Right.
Um, so I think that will be, that will be a, um, a disadvantage that, um, he, that the pastor is not exercising his pastoral role over the children. Um, and that's a big negative.
That that's, that's one thing that I would, even though that I think the children's church is a good idea, uh, done correctly. I think that if you're not careful, a huge dish disadvantage is one, the segregation of the church.
They don't feel like they have a place to be whenever they graduate out of it. How many children once they're 18 years old and they're now they're grown, uh, an 18 year old in a, in a church of God is a, it's a humongous day when they graduate high school, provided they turn 18 before there, if they turn 18, before they graduate high school, the day they graduate high school, they're no longer qualified to be in youth.
That's the last time they can go to a youth service. Last time they can go to youth camp. Last time they can go to the, to the, uh, we don't have a youth service during, uh, worship service. Our, uh, our youth stay in the, uh, and always will stay in the worship service, only the children from the ages of eight and down, I think it is, or maybe it's 10 and down go to children's church anyway, but regardless, once they turn 18, now they're thrust into a church where they have a new pastor, it seems like, or they have a whole, they have to, to talk to adults.
Now they haven't talked to adults if you're completely separate. So I think it is a disadvantage. If you're not careful in how you, how you, uh, pastor, there's a huge difference between preaching and pastoring.
Pastoring is not done on Sunday morning, between eight and 12. Pastoring is done on Sunday from 12 PM until the following Sunday at 6 AM. That's, that's the pastoring part. The preaching part is just on Sunday, Wednesdays, right?
The, uh, and truthfully to pastor your, the children ought to, you ought to be available to them and their parents, their parents and them together nine times out of 10. That's probably the way it always be.
Should be that way anyway. Uh, but the children ought to be comfortable enough to come to you and say, I've got a question, pastor Jay, uh, I'm reading scripture. Can you help me understand this? That ought to be something normal to them to say to pastor Randy.
Uh, I'm, I'm, I was praying about something and, and, uh, somebody at school says something and I've kind of like your opinion on, on what, what do you think scripture means on, on this? Uh, and you should be able to sit down with them or, or even respond to them.
If it's a text or whatever, my, uh, people did just, just to fly out.
That was just an example for anybody watching. I'm not a pastor, so just, just putting it out there.
Well, okay. But, but, but you get my point.
Yeah, I'm just, I'm just kind of fine.
Well, to that point, um, couple of months ago, we had a youth fellowship at my house and the youth was saying they wanted a Bible study, um, cater to them. And I told them, no, we have Bible study already at this church.
Attend to that, attend to the Bible study. Like you don't need a separate Bible study. You guys are old enough to understand. Um, you know, you guys are in college, you can understand theology.
Right. Yeah.
Um, so they wanted a separate and not, you know, so it was just those things. And if we don't be careful, we can continue to create these segregation where everybody has a separate thing going on and, you know, leaders are burnt out because they got administered to all these different, uh, uh,.
A hundred percent.
Yeah, I agree.
No, I don't have a problem with, with, uh, separate Bible studies and stuff for, for separate age groups, as long as there's a, there's a concerted effort for a unified whole as a church throughout the week, um, it's helpful for high school age, college age kids to, to hear good things for their age group, proper application of texts for their age group during certain times.
But as long as they're not segregated from the church and the pastors are looking at, at the, everyone who's within their church as, uh, people that need to be shepherded. So there needs to be a unity, even if there is some more specific shepherding going on in some smaller groups, you know, throughout different, different times, you know, whatever that looks like.
I think that looks like on Sunday morning, when you get together for worship, everyone's together and then you shepherd them differently, maybe throughout the week, you know, if this one has a need here, you address that, if that one has a need there, you address that.
But, um, you have a cohesive unit and then address specific needs as they arise all while leading up, uh, people to, to do the work of the ministry, you know, fathers to shepherds or families, um, single folks to live life as godly Christian folks and, uh, you know, so, so on and so forth.
One of the things that all that kind of works together, if you, you know, take it all as a, a unit.
One of the things that I witnessed in, in my age group, growing up in youth group and things that I saw as there was a sense, and there actually was a reality of rebellion from youth age kids. When the adult church, the grownup church wouldn't make changes or adapt to their felt needs.
Like, I'll give an example.
I should talk about the changing of the music participation. Um, things, things of that nature. They, they wouldn't, they didn't like the fact that the adult church wouldn't adapt to them and their felt needs for music or style, style of worship, style of service, and so there, there was this sense of reality of rebellion to where they went to go find these secret sensitive churches or left church period.
Uh, I mean, you know, I witnessed this myself and in my life experience, and then there, there's many who, who leave church as, as you don't graduate to grownup church and then do not show an interest in church again until they have kids and have the mindset.
Well, uh, maybe I need to have my children back in church. And so there's that sense of needing to go back because of their children.
That's what I was talking about earlier. When people leave 18, they're like, I'm done. Right. Everything for me is here. I want to, I want to push against that for a second though, because something that I've noticed is that that is a universal problem.
Uh, I don't know how to play hymns on the guitar.
I don't know how to read sheet music. Um, I'm Pentecostal. So we just, I've got two ears and that's all I've got to play music by. I don't know how to do nothing else.
Uh, that's all right. Reformed Presbyterians don't even use instruments.
That's true. That's true.
We'll make it together.
Yeah.
Anyway, so my, my, my, my, my point here is what I'm trying to say, brother Robert, is that, uh, there was, when I first came to, to pastor this church and before there was this push that they, they sang traditional songs, which I think are great.
Hymnals are great. I got no problem with him whatsoever. I think there are a lot of them are theologically rich, beautiful songs. I can't play them. Right. I don't, I don't know how to play them. I can't sing.
Right. I mean, I can physically sing. You just don't want to hear it. Uh, and the, the lady who was playing piano and singing, she's not in the best of health and she's out a lot. So when they wanted to have worship time and music, I can only play what I can play.
And I got a lot of flack, not, not like I'm leaving the church because you're playing contemporary music. But it was every Sunday. It was like, once you play this song, I was like, don't know that song.
I don't, I don't know how to, I can't help you. I can only do what I can do. If you know how to play it, get on up here and pick a guitar up and play it or play it, jump on the piano and let's hammer down and we'll do it.
But, uh, so I think that there's this, this might be a Western problem, Western culture problem where we view church as something that should be catered to us, and it may be a problem that is learned in children's church and youth, that this is catered to them.
And they bring that with them as adults and they want it to be their way or the highway, whenever they, they come into church, I wasn't raised in, in youth group like that, so I don't have nothing to compare it to.
Uh, but I, I suppose that would be a disadvantage that I have seen if that's what caused this, this mindset of play my music or else, then that is a huge disadvantage to this diversified form of worship that we have.
I know when I was younger, um, you know, going to teen groups and things like that, for me, it was a social club, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't really, yeah. I mean, it was, it was about, Hey, like that guy plays guitar.
This guy's rapping, you know, like it's the music I like.
Um, you know, there's pretty girls, right? Like you would look for that kind of stuff.
Sure.
Um, but I wasn't going because of Jesus, I can tell you that much. You know what I mean? Well, it was, that was the cover, right? Like, well, I'm going because, you know, I'm a Christian and because of Jesus and whatever, but realistically, you know, if you had like, if you had good hard preaching, but you took away all those things that kept me around, I probably would have kept going.
You know what I'm saying? Like, even if it was biblical and good, which exposes where I was at at that point in time, you know what I mean? At 16, 17 years old. Um, you know, even when I kind of, well, I'm not going to get into all that, but, um, yeah, it was just, it was just, it was superficial stuff.
And I, as, as well, I used to be a teen group leader over in church in the glades, and I can tell you all the teens that I saw passed through that teen group, most of them, not all of them, but most of them are not believers today.
Really?
And, and yeah. And, and, um, in retrospect, if I had been wiser, I should have known because there were warning signs, you know what I mean?
I wasn't here by the way, just to let you know.
No, Randy, Randy wasn't there. Randy wasn't there.
That's true.
So I'm not, I'm not trying to throw Randy or anybody under the bus. I'm not saying that the other pastor or anybody is at fault, but, but I think that, um, there wasn't, and, and, you know, again, I didn't know any better.
It was my fault. You know, I was, I shouldn't have been a leader at that time either. Um, because I'm not saying that I did anything heretical per se, but, but I didn't, I didn't teach.
You weren't mature enough.
Yeah, I was not, I was not ready for it. Exactly. I was not mature and I shouldn't have been on in that position. Um, and in retrospect, I just look at it. I'm like, there were warning signs, but I was, I was sort of naive and I just took everybody at the word and if they say they're a Christian, I was like, okay, great, you're a Christian, you know what I mean?
And I didn't see like, okay, maybe this person needs discipleship. And that brings me to my last point. I promise. Um, uh, Matt said, you know, that people underestimate what children can actually learn from the corporate worship service.
That's absolutely correct. A lot of people say, oh no, this is too, too high level for them, man. No, it is not. No, it is not. I can, I can attest to that fact with my children, because even if it, if it, if it's using language that they want to understand when we talk about it, it clicks, you know, like maybe I have to bring it down a notch, but it's just a little bit and they get it.
It clicks.
Yep.
So anyway, and it makes, and I think, um, I think Dan said it, uh, brother Dan said earlier, um, it challenges the pastor as well. Like if the, if the, if, if the children, like, so right now the children are not there, so I'm going to preach knowing that the children are not there, but if I'm consistently, um, having the children there, then I'm going to have to, um, you know, it's going to challenge my preaching that I'm going to preach to the children, preach to the adults, preach to the believer, the unbeliever, et cetera, et.
Cetera.
So it helps the preacher preach better. Um, actually when you have that diversity in the audience,.
Well, it helps the pastor pastor better too, because if you're thinking about preaching to him during the, during the Sunday, you think about pastoring to him during the week. True enough.
True enough.
And now, uh, the, this thing about children understanding stuff, uh, my children have blurted stuff out during sermons. Um, that is profound. And, and I don't even know how, I don't know where they got it.
My eight year old blurted something out. Um, on the 28th, uh, the day that we left early to go back and visit folks in Charlotte from the laborers conference. Um, we visited an Orthodox Presbyterian church.
The pastor was speaking about returning to your sin and how it was foolish. And he said something about returning to their sin. And my four year old yelled out, why would you do that? And he said, that's a good question.
And he responded to her and he, he laid, let everyone know that it's foolishness to return to your sin, turn from your sin. He was preaching out of Romans and it was, it was just glorious to watch him preaching the word of God, to hear my four year old who, I mean, she, she makes me wonder sometimes she is crazy, but she, she, she just blurted something out that was so precious and he just preached right back to her and everyone else who was there and children are understanding a lot more than what we give them credit for.
I think that's, that's backed up by science. I think if you teach a child a second language, when they're a certain age, they learn it so much faster than they do. If they like, I can't speak Spanish, saved my life and, and I got Rosetta stone, you know, and it didn't have me.
No, I was good.
I was, I could add some, some nuance as we start winding down a little bit. Um, because there are people in our, in this group that their churches do have children's church and are trying to, I guess, make the best of a, of a need because we're in a weird spot culturally right now where oftentimes families aren't getting that daily instruction that Dan is, is used to with, with daily family worship, that this used to be a staple in the Christian home.
And it's, it's not, or even parents who are new believers or even parents who are new believers.
They don't know themselves.
And so oftentimes, um, I know my church looks at it this way that there's right now, there's a pressing need for instruction for kids that are used to getting this during the week.
And I think this is something that we can, I think we can work to correct this. And Joel Beakey is very adamant that the main thing preventing revival from coming to America is the lack of family worship.
And that he would go as far as to say that until Christian families start doing that again, revival won't come to America.
Yeah, that's good.
One of the things I would look at children's church as a necessity, maybe in some, some context for the time being.
One of the things that I would say to add to this, Brother Tyler, from a pastor's point of view, keeping your children and the congregation is totally fine, but it doesn't benefit them. If they've got a coloring book or a tablet or your cell phone in their hand playing angry birds during the service.
And, and I see some people say that they won't send their kids to, to children's church, but their kids are in the back with a coloring book during the service to keep them quiet and to keep them appeased.
I ask you this question, what is the difference between that and just sending them out because they're not engaged at that point either, are they?
Well, I agree with you kind of on the angry bird, angry birds thing.
But I'd use as an example, I don't know what the kids are playing.
No, no, no. The angry birds thing, like you're engaged. That that's a fun game. You're going to want to knock them, them pigs over and crush, crush the buildings, but we did a thing in, uh, in, uh, it was, uh, my children's literature.
Class.
We listened to a story, um, and then took a test afterwards where we just listened. We sat there fully attentive, took the test. Um, and then we listened to a different story while we were coloring. Um, when we were able to occupy our physical bodies with something while letting our minds pay attention to the story, we scored better on the test.
Oh, so, so there is something to coloring and kids paying attention, but we've got to know where to stop it. Um, like angry birds way too far. Them kids are locked into that screen. They're not paying attention to nothing.
Um, but there are certain things that can occupy the hands and get that fidgetiness out of the way where their minds can engage. But that also goes back to you training them to listen. So there's, there's some give and take there.
And I don't think you're wrong with what you're saying. We don't need to be just distracting them to keep them quiet, but we have to train them to listen. However, that looks in our context, you know, whatever works to make them listen while we're making them, uh, understand that this is, this is God's word being spoken to you and whatever you're able to understand in your context, understand it, grasp it, pull it in.
Well, also I grew up with you, but you know what I'm saying?
Well, also encouraging the rest of the congregation to show grace to that one noisy kid in the back and not sure.
Well, that's one of the things that Tom Haskell talks about. He's like, and I 100 agree. Hey, if you hear that kid crying back, don't, don't stare. You focus on just listening to the sermon. Let the parents handle it.
Now, if the kid is just cry uncontrollably and like the, the parents are not taking him or her out. Okay. Maybe step in and say, Hey, do you, do you need help? Or do you want me to take them for you? Depending on the level of comfort, right?
Like if they're a stranger, they'll say, Hey, do you want me to take your kid? But, but, but, you know, if you're a brother or a sister and they've known you for a while, whatever, Hey, do you want me to take care of him for you?
Do you want me to take him in the back? You know, cause, cause at the same time, it is true. We don't want to be overly disruptive to other people, but, but at the same time, let that parent have the time without feeling like they're being judged to, to teach their children.
This is not how we behave in church. We're, you're not going to escape because for example, my two year old, she knows very well that if she cries long enough, we might take her to the back.
And sadly, you know, I'm not trying to criticize everybody in my church, but sadly, some people just hang out in the back and they'd never bring their kids back in because it's just easier, right? It's just easier, but they're not training up their children to stay in church.
And so what do they do? The kids get all there together. They start playing with the toys and they're not listening. And then the parents can't even hear because the kids are being loud. So my two year old, she knows that and she wants us to get her out of there.
But we, we don't, if we have to get her out of there, we get her out of there to talk to her, tell her, this is not how we behave. And then we go right back inside.
Yep. Yeah.
John, John, Dan, I incorporated two of the things that you guys were talking about. You're talking about coloring. Dan, you were talking about listening. I attempted one time to incorporate both of those things.
So I had paper and I had crayons. And so my request was something that you hear, draw it.
Oh, that's good.
My wife actually takes notes like that. Even as an adult, that's how she takes, like, she draws pictures. She'll write little words. She'll draw pictures. That's how she takes notes.
Another thing to Jay's point, our kids will make noise from time to time and people will actually enjoy it. When we were at the conference, we had one of our fellow speakers had his kids come in and they were making some noise and it made me feel wonderful.
It made me feel at home. I'm not used to hearing preaching without some noise from kids. He apologized for the noise. I'm like, man, it made me feel at home. I love hearing the noise of kids in church because it lets me know that God is being faithful to the next generation and that you are working with your kids to listen.
And kids are going to be kids. They're going to be loud. They're going to be disruptive from time to time. But there are kids there and God is doing his work among them. So it was all good. It was great stuff.
That's good. And we're a church family, right?
They came in, they started making noise. I turned around and smiled. I was just happy.
I've learned not to turn around whenever I hear kids behind me. And it's not because it's disturbing me at all. It's because I found that if you do that, sometimes kids are actually looking for attention.
Yes.
And when you turn, you're sort of feeding the machine right now. And when you play music in a band, Brother Jay, you know this. If somebody makes a mistake, if you respect them, you don't look at them whenever they hit the wrong note.
You act like it didn't happen.
I was usually the guy hitting the wrong notes.
Nobody looked at me either.
But if you hit them all, then you've hit the right ones too. That's my excuse. If I just hit them all, I've got the right ones and I've got the wrong ones.
That's funny because I'm tone deaf for the most part.
And you play harmonica.
At one point at the conference, Big John, Jonathan, and myself were having a bit of an impromptu jam session. Jonathan was on the keys and Big John was on the guitar.
Singing the Psalms. You were singing the Psalms. Psalm 3. Good stuff.
And what was it? Jay made a comment, something needs to be tuned. And I was like, really?
Well, to be truthful, it was me that was out of line. I don't play bass. And it was a five-string bass. And I kept instinctually thinking that the top string was where I was wanting to go. And if you know anything about a bass, the five-string bass is a B, not an E.
And it'll throw you off every time.
So there's that. But I don't have enough natural rhythm to play bass. You know what I mean?
See, that's why I've got an instrument that you can literally hold it upside down. And still play it.
There you go.
Anyway.
Let me tweak the last question. This will be our last question. And just have one or two of you guys answer it. So I would venture to say that all of us would agree that from Scripture, ultimately, it's the parent's job to train up their children in the ways of the Lord.
And so one or two of you encourage parents how they can do that in both settings. If they're in a church where there's not children's church, encourage them to keep on keeping on. If they're in a church where there is children's church, how can they be faithful in being that parent that God's called them to be to train them up?
Ultimately, it's not up to your church to teach your children about God.
Amen.
It's up to you. And that's why I'm like, hey, family worship at home is not just beneficial. It's essential. It's essential. Because you are trying as much as humanly possible, even though it's ultimately up to God.
But you are humanly, from a human perspective, trying to save those children. Now, again, salvation is of the Lord's and the Lord only. But the Lord works through what we do, right? That's why we preach the gospel.
Otherwise, we wouldn't preach it, right? We'd just say, well, God will save whoever's going to save. No, we have a responsibility to train up our children. And it starts at home first. And it doesn't have to be hard.
It can be one little passage of Scripture, one verse, a small devotional, and then you just ask a couple of questions to your kids. What do you guys think about this? Why shouldn't we sin when... Whatever it might be.
It just depends on the context of what you're talking about. And then sing one song. Maybe pick a song. I know Dan will pick a psalm. So sing a psalm. You know what I mean? Psalms are beautiful. Psalms, I'm not exclusively a psalmist.
But we could talk about that later.
But we will.
But I know that Jay likes Hillsong. I've proven it.
Oh, my goodness.
Don't start. There's at least one song.
The point is, every day, 15 minutes a day, whatever you can do, spend some time with your kids and teach them about the Lord that has saved you and that you love and that is the God of all.
Amen. Amen. Amen.
If your church has a children's church where they're being taught at a different time than you're being taught, exactly what Jay said still applies. When your children come home, ask them what they learned and use the opportunity to discuss what their children's church leaders are teaching them.
And then you can tell them what you learned in the normal adult Sunday service and spend some time over that topic and supplement what the teacher is teaching your children and give them an opportunity to ask you questions about what you're learning in adult service or whatever and train up your children during this time.
I'm going to give a shameless plug to us psalm singers. Just in your family time with your kids, if you can get a hold of a psalter and sing with them, you knock out singing and preaching in one step.
You can look at the psalm, you can explain it to them, teach them from it, and then sing it with pray about it. And that's your whole family worship right there. One nutshell.
His little psalter right there is a great tool.
I just want to say one quick thing. Mothers, it's great that you teach your children. Fathers, it is absolutely your responsibility.
It has to be father led. It cannot be just the women making all the effort. So men step up, act like men.
And if you're a single mother, if single mothers, obviously that's one of the things your job is to teach them. You have no alternative, right?
And pastors should be sensitive to single mothers too, to help in that respect.
The church is supposed to be sensitive.
The whole church.
Absolutely.
There's supposed to be men in the church who step up and fill in that gap where they can. Obviously where it's done decently and in order. We're a family. That's what we are. So children screaming in the back shouldn't be nerve wracking to you because they should be, you should be treating them like they're your children.
Those are all your nieces and nephews.
That's right. You should love them and be sensitive to your brothers and sisters who are raising children at times when it's more difficult than it is other. I've got four kids and I had four under the age of three at one time.
In my life. And I know what it's like to have literally two children screaming in one in each hand, trying to get them out of church. And if I was a little bit smaller, I could even have held them both at the same time because whatever they were fighting about was, you know, so it's one of those things.
During that time, don't roll your eyes at the children who are screaming and hollering. I usually take an opportunity whenever something like that's happening and I start to pray. I got accused of sleeping in the conference.
My brother, Rob, I think it was, or maybe it was maybe a sister Kelly. I know my wife accused me of it one time because she elbowed me mid prayer and hurt a little bit. She got me in that sweet meat on the side, you know.
I can't remember who was preaching and there was a man with a disability that was there and he was clearly having some trouble breathing during one of the services. And I just, it broke my heart. I started praying for him.
So I closed my eyes and respect, you know, to the prayer. And I mean, I'm giving him the business, you know, by that time I get gouged real hard by my wife and elbow. And then I started having trouble breathing.
And, but when you see, and that's funny, but when you see people who are in this moment of distress and you're not actively preaching or teaching, say a prayer for, for the mother's nerves, for the father's nerves.
And that's totally within order of the church is to pray for one another. Right.
Yeah. Dan, what's the name of the app that you guys use for your song?
We use the, the book of Psalms for worship app. It's about $10. It has all 150 Psalms in about, say about 300 different settings. It breaks up the Psalms and it gives you some music to sing it by some familiar hymn tunes and some that you may not know.
But each one also gives you a meter. So if you know common meter and you see CM next to him, you can sing it to the tune of amazing grace. And you'll be just fine.
In fact, the one I've got, they actually, which is great. They've got QR codes for each song. So you can go, it'll take you to a website where they have recordings of different tunes that you can sing it to.
That's what's up. That's pretty good.
That one right there is, it's not the one that we use in our churches, but that one that he's got is fantastic.
It seems like today in Christian culture, at least in our circles, documentaries are a big thing and becoming a big thing. How many of you saw several years ago? The documentary divided the movie.
Divided sounds familiar. Oh, can you remind me? Cause I feel like I've heard of it.
Well, I want it to be a surprise. So my challenge is to you guys and anybody watching, I just saw that it's actually finally on YouTube. I think the full link movie divided the movie on YouTube. Um, watch it and, and come back and we'll, we'll discuss.
Uh, and you can let me know what you think about that movie. So with that being said, I appreciate you guys so much. I appreciate your insight. I've been encouraged and I hope everybody that was watching will be encouraged too.
We always like to end our programs with the gospel of Jesus Christ. So brother Randy, do you mind to share the gospel with us tonight? And then Tyler, when he's finished, will you pray?
Um, first I want to share, uh, the bad news. Uh, the bad news is that there is a holy God who was just and righteous and all of his ways, who was sovereign, who created the whole earth and mankind has sinned against that holy God.
Um, and because of that, every person on earth deserve his judgment, deserve his wrath, deserve to be eternally separated from him. Um, that is the bad news. But the good news is because of his abundant love, he sent his only begotten son, um, God in the flesh, he came to earth, lived a perfect life, a life of righteousness and full obedience to the father.
Um, and he died taking on the sins of the world. And if anyone put their trust in him, um, depend on him as the only hope of salvation, a call on his name, they shall be saved. Um, if you repent of your sins and put your faith in him, uh, you will be saved.
You will receive the gift of the holy spirit who will sanctify you, cleanse you. Um, and make you part of the family of Christ, make you part of the church and you will live eternally with him first on earth and then into glory.
That is the gospel.
Father God, I thank you for the men that you brought together tonight to discuss something that can be very controversial sometimes when we talk about how the family should function in comparison with how it has functioned for a lot of people.
When we're talking about a way of doing things in the church that some of us have never seen. We, we don't, we don't know this. It seems strange and foreign or even upside down sometimes. But Lord, would you give us the grace and the humility to talk through these things together, to be unified, to be one just as the father and the son are one.
Even when we talk about children in the church, that the prayer of Christ in the garden, that we would be one would be made manifest. In Christ's precious name, we pray. Amen.
Thank you for watching the labors podcast. We appreciate it so much. We appreciate your support first and foremost through prayer. We're not perfect and we need your prayer. We would also appreciate it if you would like, share, part, whatever you do on social media and join us, join our family in reaching out to, um, to our world with the message of Jesus Christ.
We hope to see you real soon on the next labor podcast.
Thank you for joining the laborers podcast. Remember Jesus is King live in the victory of Christ. Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ. Be sure to tune in next time for the laborers podcast.