Jimmy Akin Debates Upcoming, then Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Well, good afternoon, morning, evening. I don't know what time it is wherever you are. Thanks for joining us on Dividing Line today

00:38

We are going to be taking your calls on Zoom, that is

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I'm trying to remember what the old number was. We had it for like 20 years 877 -753 -3341.

00:52

Yes. Don't bother calling it That's probably Joe's Tire Shop in Poughkeepsie now. Okay, and they're not gonna appreciate your calling

00:59

They're not gonna answer any of your questions either Be that as it may

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We are going to be taking Zoom calls Rich posted a whole thing with all the Instructions on how to do it and I don't even know how to do it to be honest with you.

01:17

Why would I call? but We'll be taking your calls and I've sort of asked and the topics that Rich has shown me

01:26

We probably have as many as we're gonna get to already to be perfectly honest with you so But people drop off, you know during the course of the program so you never know but it sort of looks like the topics are pretty much in the area of the

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Debates from last month Or even the debates coming up in just a matter of weeks.

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I pull out in fact two weeks from today I can't when I say that I get a little nervous because there's so much to do between now and then and and What oh

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No, I haven't even hooked up to it yet but You know, I'm thinking once I do we're gonna take it over that place and then just leave it there

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Set it up so we can work on it. And I'm hoping to do a program

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I Pull out Tuesday morning. So my hope is on that Monday to do a program before we leave from the unit and That shouldn't be a problem really when you think about it

02:38

But we'll see. We'll see. Yeah, you never know. We haven't gotten into it rich hasn't started Running lines everywhere and hooking this up there and all that kind of stuff.

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So Yeah, I'm really excited about that I'm gonna and in a moment

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I'm shooting it about 15 after to start taking the calls. Maybe a little bit earlier.

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Maybe a little bit later. It depends What I want to do here at the beginning is

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I want to lay out for you and You just bookmark this and then go back and see see how close

03:13

I came I'm gonna lay out for you what I expect to take place in The debates in the 24th and 25th of this month

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Between myself and Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers. As you know

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The only way that This could happen is if we did solo scriptura for the fifth time

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I figure okay five times five points of Calvinism Find some type of happy significance to all of this but Here's here's what's going to happen

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I am going to Present solo scriptura as the default position of scripture itself

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That is I'm going to point to the reality that what? Scripture says about itself and its nature is

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Unique There is nothing else like it There is nothing else that is ontologically equal to it it is literally

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God speaking the Lord Jesus quotes it as final authority in anything and if God in human flesh quotes scripture as his final authority and There is never a time when he quotes tradition as a final authority

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When he quotes a mad a Jewish magisterium as a final authority and When there are numerous times when

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Jewish traditions that they claimed came from God And Decisions made by what you might and one of the issues in the debate is going to be what in the world is a magisterium

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Magisterium is a modern term Magisterium is not a term that the early church used it really isn't even a term that was used in the

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Middle Ages and I know when it's first officially used by Rome, but it's it's a very it's it's much younger in Official usage than the

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Reformation itself and they're always dismissing the Reformation. That's just 500 years. Okay. Well, all right

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Part of this debate is going to be identifying equivocation Where you assert that something existed in the early church or in the days of the

05:45

Apostles that exist today There's the connection when in fact You're ignoring vast differences and you're identifying.

05:55

Well, the Apostles established elders We're gonna have to talk about the fact that elder and bishop is the same office

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But there are only two offices in the New Testament and that is elders bishops same office the distinction the the distinction where The elders became something lesser

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Later on in church history is not biblical It is not apostolic. It is sub apostolic and anti apostolic, but it's part of Rome's dogma now and So the

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Apostles did Establish that authority, but that does not create the Roman Magisterium There were no

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Popes. There were no Cardinals. There were no archbishops there was none of that and Acts chapter 15 does not establish that in any way shape or form.

06:48

This was an inspired meeting this was this was living

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Apostles and To go well, we just transfer that lock stock and barrel into a new context is completely invalid so we'll be talking about that and What he will present will be

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Well the Apostles this was the apostolic paradigm Scripture tradition and Magisterium and that's what we have today.

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And that's what we've always had and therefore we're right And so you've got to show me the money. He's actually used that terminology in previous debates

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Show me the money where Scripture teaches solo scriptures They what what what he wants to especially emphasize is the idea that solo scriptura is a doctrine like justification by faith

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Whereas solo scriptura is an authority principle based upon Scripture's teaching of its own nature

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They want to they want to make it something else so they can try to say well scripture has to teach it in these words

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Rather than well, yeah scripture definitely teaches its own unique authority and Says this is

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God speaking But Since it doesn't use these terms since it's you know, when the

08:07

Muslims and they learned this from Akhmed didot I'm not sure whether it was in its RL hawk the 1863 book that Made Akhmed didot if you don't know

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Akhmed didot is don't worry about you Haven't been listening to the valuing line all that long if you have if you don't but the the

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Muslims like to say show me where Jesus said I am God worship me and So you can show him being described as God you can show him using the

08:32

I am sayings himself Whatever. It doesn't matter since it doesn't use those specific words. It just doesn't fit the bill

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Demanding that solo scriptura appear in that way is the same thing.

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It's it has the same value to it So he's gonna present his paradigm and say you have to show where the

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Apostles taught that they were shifting this paradigm It's an invalid paradigm there is no evidence whatsoever that the

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Apostles ever established a Teaching office that has the authority of the

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Apostles themselves and the Magisterium today and There's going to be something interesting

09:16

It's going to be something interesting Next Monday I There are a lot of people getting really nervous about next

09:27

Monday I am NOT nervous about next Monday at all, except that it's coming too fast because Next Monday will be one week in one day from when

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I'm pulling out on this trip. So that's all I'm concerned about about next Monday But we have the

09:43

Eclipse going on next if you weren't aware of that April 8th big big day for all that, you know the

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Eclipse stuff and You know all the

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All the amateur astronomers are going crazy and and even when I was traveling this last time like in I Think it

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I think it's gonna be a full Eclipse and prior I think it may it be in Conway as well sort of going through the mid middle of the country there

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There's a band where it's going to be full. It's not going to be full here in Phoenix a

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Lot of people are really excited about it. I'm I'm taking my solar scope. Hey, at least my grandkids my grandkids get to see

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The Eclipse it's gonna be about 70 % here through a hydrogen -alpha solar scope, so To be a lot of people actually looking at the

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Eclipse that aren't gonna have that good of you Anyway, I've got to go out that morning and set up and be ready with the with the kids.

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There'll be some homeschooling Science credit and all sorts of other stuff like that going on, but on the 8th on next

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Monday a New I'm not sure if it's an encyclical or it's just a document.

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I think it's an encyclical The information I have seen that is again that Tucho Fernandez is involved in writing of this one as well along with obviously

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Francis On human dignity now after fiduciary applicants

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Everybody is going to be Looking very carefully and who knows what this new document may contain

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And what it may address especially in light of the Synod and Synodality And so I'm wondering are we gonna have something new to be talking about in the debate?

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Because this is the normal teaching office of the Magisterium according to Roman Catholic theology today so to To be a

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Roman Catholic today and to deny sola scriptura while Promoting submission to Francis is a fundamentally flawed position to be in You you you're talking about a

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Pope Who is changing? Tradition changing the definition of tradition changing the interpretation of tradition

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It raises all sorts of problems and if your arguments against the sufficiency of Scripture do not address

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The huge chasms and cracks and the foundation of your own system. What are you doing? Why are you doing this is really part of the question then real quickly?

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in the next debate on How a man has peace with God I'm pretty certain the focus is going to be primarily twofold

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The focus will be on From my perspective the atoning work of Christ That is the fundamental difference between us is that we have a finished work

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Rome does not Rome has an ongoing non -perfecting work and So Hebrews 7 through 10 the once for allness and hence the error of The concept of the mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice will be part of the focus and then

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Romans 4 and 5 Galatians 2 and The nature of justification

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I can guarantee you he's going to present the idea that Abraham was justified multiple times just fighting

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Genesis 12, Genesis 15, Genesis 22. I'm gonna demonstrate that is a wonderful argument against Paul It is anti Pauline.

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It's anti apostolic. It tears Romans 4 to shreds I'm sure this could be a discussion of indicatives and subjunctives at Romans 5 1 you'll find that I think interesting, especially if you go back to 2020 and a sermon that I preached that summer.

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I need to find that one myself But I think that's going to be where the most of the focus of that debate is going to be is

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What's the nature of peace because I mean that's part of the house. How does a man of peace of God? Central thesis of the

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Roman Catholic controversy and And So, yeah, I think that's what you're gonna be looking at write that down let's see how close we get

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After the debates take place in just a couple of weeks so with that, all right

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Let's get ready to go to our Zoom calls or whatever you want to call them. I still want to call them phone calls, but we're just doing it differently

14:51

I guess leaving Ma Bell out of it That's so many young people have no idea what

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Ma Bell is Let's talk with Andres and talk about Ego, I me in John 9 9

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Hello, dr. White, can you hear me? I can Dr. White it is a privilege and a pleasure to finally get to talk to you

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The dividing line has brought me back to the reform faith So I first of all, I wanted to thank you for the work that you do and I'm honestly very excited

15:21

To get to talk to you for the first time Well, great. I'm glad to get a chance to talk to you

15:28

Thank you. I just finished reading your book the Forgotten Trinity and I read the chapter that deals with ego

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I me and I read about the parallel that it makes, you know between John 8 58 and Isaiah 43 10

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John 13 19 and Isaiah 43 10, you know, I'm sorry John 8. I think it's

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John 8 58. Well Well, yeah, let me let me explain a 24 a 58 and 19 5 through 6 all

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Use ego I me But it's John 13 19 Where Jesus specifically uses the accompanying verbs?

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So we know that he's quoting from Isaiah 43 10 of himself in John 13 19

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You don't have that in in in 19 5 through 6 when Jesus says ego I me the soldiers fall back upon the ground in Johnny in John 8 24 and 858 when he says ego

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I me in 858 the Jews pick up stones to stone him and 824 he makes it an object of faith unless you believe that ego

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I me you will die in your sins and So that's why these four uses are different than the blind man's use in John 999 where it's just simply it's not the object of faith and it's not

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Accompanying quotations from the Old Testament. No one's picking up stones stone anybody. It's just simply an emphatic self -identification

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Yeah, I'm I'm the man that Ego, I mean can simply mean I am the man if you don't put it if you don't put it in a context

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Where you are using accompanying scriptures? And where John is not telling you and then they picked up stones to stone

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Because they they know what he's saying and where that terminology is coming from Okay, that completely answers my question because I saw a video by this guy

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Anthony. I think his last name is a buzzard Yes, uh -huh. He's Basically saying well, you know a guy me just means

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I'm the one and so It doesn't really mean anything, right? All Unitarians all

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Unitarians do that whether it's Anthony buzzard Dale Tuggy all the rest they will simply say that a guy me can be used as emphatic self -identification, which of course is true, but That's not how

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John's using it. And so that's why as I just said when you're you're quoting it as part of scripture where Yahweh is

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Identifying himself in the context of being able to predict the future in Isaiah 43 10 and then

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Jesus applies that in Predicting the future of the betrayal of Judas to himself in John 13 19.

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That's got to be purposeful when when the soldiers fall back upon the ground and John even he he makes sure in John 19 56 that when you see it, you know

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It says it says Jesus said I am and Judas who is betraying it was a company them and when he said ego

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I me they fell back upon the ground John's making sure that you understand that it was the utterance of that phrase that means soldiers and If these were

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Roman soldiers and there's some doubt as to whether it was the temple cohort or just what it was But if these were

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Roman soldiers, they wouldn't even know they wouldn't even know what the background is They wouldn't know biblical usage of the term and yet they still fell back upon the ground that tells you there's something about the words themselves that is

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Carrying meaning and then like I said 858 Jesus says put him put in a bit on genocide.

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I go I me before a mirror was I am and They pick up stones to stone him and in a 24 and he says unless you believe that I am

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You will die in your sins that that distinguishes these four uses And you really you cannot honestly look in the mirror and saying yeah,

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I'm trying to let John speak for John No, if you're a Unitarian, you're just simply ignoring.

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In fact, you know what? You know who I think would agree with me on that would be Bart Ehrman Amazingly enough because you know

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Bart Ehrman doesn't believe in the inspiration in the New Testament But when asked about the gospel John is all yeah.

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Well John obviously believes Jesus is divine. That's sort of a duh and Yeah, I'm like, yeah, it is a duh.

19:56

Yeah. Hello Hello Hello.

20:04

Hello. Hello. Well address. Thank you for your call. I guess we lost you What? Dr.

20:10

White. Oh, there he is. Okay. I have I have my kids playing in the background. So I didn't want the sound to come

20:17

Dr. White super super super quick. Um, I am from Colombia and we are big into cycling

20:24

So every time that you talk about the Tour de France and the Giro d 'Italia, I'm like, yes Because I'm from the same state where I don't know if you're familiar with Nairo Quintana.

20:33

Oh, of course. Everybody knows Nairo He's like let's be honest. It looks like his best years are behind him, but He was he was pretty much pure climber.

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And yeah, he was he was great and he's still out there I like to see him and Rigoberto Iran and and those guys still out there.

20:51

This is Rigo's last year. I think isn't it? Yes, yeah Thank you so much.

20:57

Okay. All right. Thank you for your call. God bless Thank you. All righty. God bless.

21:02

Thank you. Good start here We're going with well, you know, let's let's just go ahead and stick with that one just for a moment as far as the

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That debate and let's talk with Shane on Tuggy's philosophy. Is that good?

21:22

Hello Shane Hello, sir. Thanks for taking the call. I hope you've had a chance to get some rest and cover from that junk a little bit

21:31

Nope. Nope. I I literally honestly Sunday was the first day that I took the day easy

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I mean other than going to church and doing the stuff that you do with that. I have not I and I schedule my own stuff.

21:47

So it's all my fault I'm the I'm the idiot that's driving myself into the grave But the stuff that's happened with the

21:54

RV Has just no I'm not gonna get any rest until I get back from this one and I only have two months before The next trip after that, but hey look from my perspective you got plenty of time to rest in heaven.

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So there you go There you go. Yeah work while you've got the strength. Well work while the sun's still shining work while we have the opportunity work while we have the freedom to proclaim the gospel on the

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Internet and travel and things like that because We don't know how long we're gonna have that and I don't know how long

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I'm gonna have the health to be able to do that. So yeah, I do feel a real strong compulsion to burn the candle at both ends and because I'm getting up there and The the nation is not in good shape right now

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So if you've you've got a message that'll help people you got to get it out there But anyways, yes, sir.

22:47

Go ahead so true, uh, I wanted to ask about Huggie and his

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The I think he called it the likelihood principle It was basically just his mode of reasoning Seemed like it was a pretty big part of his opening statement

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And it honestly seems like it was like the whole foundation of his turning away from a

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Trinitarian Belief to the Unitarian belief and I was just wondering kind of what you what you made of that method of reasoning

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I remember watching his opening statement very curious Kind of how you would look at that and how you would approach that Of course, you didn't really focus on that in the debate so much you were dealing with other things

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But I am curious to hear like what what do you make of that mode of reasoning and just to kind of offer one of my thoughts and maybe you could respond to that too is

23:39

It's true that we use that kind of reasoning all the time But that kind of reasoning is

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Unable to make any kind of positive truth quite right So it's just it's strange to me that he would use that kind of as the foundation

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When we're we're talking about theological truth It just it didn't make sense and then of course he would subject everything

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He didn't like in Scripture to that mode of reasoning and just dismisses.

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So I was just curious What are your thoughts about all that and and anything you have to say about? Well, let me say

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Dr. Tuggy sent me a handwritten note in the mail

24:23

There aren't too many people still know how to do that. Oh, this is a stamp. It's like pretty unusual

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And rich saw it first and he called me let me know about it and It was a thank -you note for the debate and it was a personal apology

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For the Cross -examination issues where he will ask a question.

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I'll give an answer and then he'll comment and I had criticized him for doing that against Chris date and in other debates that he's done

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Because that's not how you do debates you that's not how cross -examination is done. It's a violation of the rules

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It's just basic stuff But he said in his note to me I did not know that and I apologize and I won't do that in the future.

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And so I think need to give Credit where credit's due. I appreciated the note that it was handwritten and the apology

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He's also written to me. He wants to discuss his identity argument But this gets to the criticism

25:34

I've had all along Unitarianism is based upon rationalistic philosophical reasoning

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It's not based upon the idea of the supremacy of supernatural revelation and that supernatural revelation needs to be the foundation

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For all of our thinking and that we need to build upon that We don't bring a system to scripture and then try to fit scripture into it

25:59

That's why I said in my opening if you have a philosophical system That cannot deal with the divine revelation in Its fullness then you need to get a different philosophical system

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You don't try to squish scripture in to your much more limited philosophical boxes

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And so Unitarianism look at it historically look at when and I'm not talking about Unitarian Universalism which it just goes off into the woo -woo land of very strange

26:34

Women preachers and all the rest of that kind of stuff. I'm talking about Unitarianism Historically has always led to a fundamental collapse of the supernatural claims of Christianity Because it is based upon a rationalistic way of thought that is simply not big enough and cannot over the generations deal with What you have in supernatural revelation in Scripture and so I I Knew that's where he was gonna be going because that's what his argument is all the time and it's a little bit

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Honestly like Layton flowers in the sense that it wouldn't matter Which aspect of the biblical revelation the deity of Christ we were discussing we were supposed to be discussing specifically

27:24

The identification of Jesus as Yahweh his primary argument is that it can't mean that because of these other considerations and so when we got into The actual texts then it's like well, you know like the the

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Hebrews 1 10 through 12 isn't actually being addressed to the Sun that that is

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Without a doubt the least likely possible way of reading that text But if your philosophical stuff says well, it can't mean that then that's what gives plausibility to these kinds of readings of the other texts that just Would never even suggest themselves other than the fact that you have a position that you're trying to Hold to that you've arrived at philosophically rather than Arrived at from biblical considerations, so All the stuff in the opening, you know, it's just this scattergun of of stuff that Even even if we were to debate it in that way would just be

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Him making a claim me making claim him making me make it just it would never be able to go into any depth whatsoever and the other problem was

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He had Required that we have significantly less cross -examination than in all the other debates, so the latent flowers debate in the

28:59

Jason Breda debate in the Trent Horn debates We had 40 I'm not sure how much we had in the

29:05

Breda debate, but we had 40 minutes of cross -ex in the other debates there at the church in Houston and I think that would have helped a

29:17

Good bit to be honest with you to get more into some of those texts and press on some of the responses but Yeah, I expected what we what we got as far as the opening consider opening presentation was considered

29:33

I agree that a lot more cross -ex there would have been useful and you know, you've mentioned this but I Really thought the

29:41

Tuckney debate was actually a lot better and like more worthwhile

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Than even the latent flowers one, you know, I didn't get the fireworks, but I it was actually a truly fascinating Well, yeah

29:54

It depends on what you're looking for in a debate And so I would I said from the beginning I thought it was the most important of the subjects that we would that we would be addressing

30:04

And so yeah, but you know a lot of people want want the fireworks

30:10

That's why they're watching in the first place. It's sort of like You know, why do people watch saw why do people watch 89 and a half minutes of People kicking a ball around a large field just for 30 seconds of go

30:26

You know, yeah, you know all that time. We're just sitting there and it oh, there it is You know, it's sort of saying why do people watch

30:32

NASCAR because eventually somebody's gonna crack up, you know But it takes a while to get there. Yeah.

30:38

Yeah. There you go. So That's I think why a lot of people Watch debates and so they judge them on that basis, unfortunately

30:47

But yeah, that was my thought was I think it's a more important as far as the centrality of the of the topics concern

30:54

Well, one of my major takeaways from that debate and I'll just kind of cut off after I say this But one of my major takeaways was

31:01

You we really got to see with dr. Tuggy What it looks like when you refuse to hold scripture in harmony and when you take one truth and subjected to another because that one's

31:15

Inconvenient for a kind of what you're coming to the table with and we saw it on such an important topic

31:20

But for me, it just served as a great warning because the truth is, you know We're all imperfect in our theology and we have a tendency to do that But we got to really see it within a very important issue and I really appreciated that Just for my own personal sake it served as a great warning and well,

31:39

I appreciate everything you do We'll continue to pray for you on a trip and thank you looking forward to what's coming next

31:45

I appreciate that and I would say we saw the same things in the purgatory debate and in the latent flowers debate to be

31:51

Perverse with you. I think it was pretty much the exact same Issue being being illustrated in those as well.

31:58

So thank you for your phone call and Thank you for the prayers. We'll definitely need it. Do you have some order you're working on over there?

32:04

Oh, okay I'm sorry Okay. All right

32:10

Let's Okay, I've got Well, let's talk with Rob because I'm not sure if you type that in right

32:19

John 635 debate That's what he put. Okay, Rob. Did you type that right?

32:27

Hello Rob, no, I probably didn't I meant 45 Okay, so I'm sitting you're going

32:33

I'm sitting you're trying to interpret these things and going Does he say we need to have a

32:39

John 635 debate or? Sorry about that Well, and it got you ahead of Jed.

32:47

We're gonna have to go to Jed next I think so So that that's pretty tricky. That's that's that's actually very very tricky.

32:54

Okay. Yes, I'm intentional Go ahead. Yeah. Well, thank you.

33:00

Dr. White. I've just discovered you recently and you caught me on this track of since a kid coming to Christ out of the

33:08

Catholic Church and Kind of learning a trailbreaker learning all this and coming to Christ or him drawing me and and I always understood the

33:20

Like infusions it says you were Chosen before I I didn't understand it, but I go wow, that's amazing

33:29

I can't quite get my head around all that But but I believe that in what I see in the debate you had with dr.

33:36

Flowers on that It seems like that's a real It's like 90 % of the church's evangelical

33:44

Sound churches. That's kind of the thought process and I guess my question is what results from that?

33:52

What? And how to be a member there and how to Try to bring the church along because I've discovered the 1689 confession of faith and I go wow

34:03

This is so neat and the history that you've taught It's like it's opened up a world for me that I didn't know about until somewhat recently

34:11

But I understood these things from the Bible. But anyway, that's kind of my thought. How does this?

34:17

Affect us all and how do we deal with it? Well, it's interesting Jeremy has Questions called reforming my church as a layperson.

34:26

So yeah, it seems to it seems to be Flowing along the same the same Lines here.

34:33

Let me be Let me walk a a line here

34:40

I fully support and encourage Especially You know young men who are excited about God's Word and excited about God's truth to work hard in learning and if you're married in Communicating that to your wife and your children and so on and so forth

35:07

We need to be very very Grace -centered in how we approach this issue

35:16

If we are in a church that is not specifically committed to a consistent confessional expression of the

35:28

Christian faith, especially as it applies To the one area and I would I would answer another part of your question by saying the primary reason

35:37

You can see down through church history person after person after person

35:43

That finds a way around God's sovereignty the centrality of grace the fact that God's the one who saves we don't save ourselves

35:56

We're not adding to what God has done Is because if you really take that seriously it completely destroys

36:07

Human ego human pride and the term that's used in the New Testament cow came up Boasting where is boasting it is excluded why because it's all of God and it's none of us and That makes us completely depend upon God And and that means we have to completely trust him and his goodness and and all the things that accompany that so If we're in a church where the human traditions of human autonomy

36:42

God is trying real hard And you just need to help him out, you know, just let's give him an attaboy

36:52

First of all many many many Churches have what

36:58

I call a blessed inconsistency. I Remember and I think

37:03

I think rich was at the same church at the same time back at North Phoenix Toward the end of my time at a very very very large

37:10

Southern Baptist Church where the Lord did great things in my life I met my wife there had wonderful experiences the ministry got founded there

37:19

And we were able to draw from a large number of people and and so, you know The Lord had a purpose for doing it there

37:25

But I remember so clearly the pastor of that church very very large or 20 ,000 members.

37:32

Okay preached a sermon out of Isaiah 6 on the holiness of God It was

37:40

Fantastic. It was Solid it was Convicting it was uplifting.

37:47

It was incredible and Two weeks later. He preached out of the gospel of Mark and pretty much contradicted everything.

37:54

He had said two weeks earlier now One of the reasons that that really struck me was because I was already involved in apologetics and when you're involved in apologetics apologetics ruins a lot of good preaching and a lot of bad preaching too because You're having to strive for consistency

38:16

When I have to at that time primarily dealing with at that time

38:22

I'm not sure we really hadn't started dealing with Roman Catholicism much yet. We were dealing primarily with Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses But I was already fully aware of the fact that I was having to listen to what the other side is saying

38:36

And identify inconsistencies and Therefore I'm like I can't

38:43

I can't be doing that myself I can't be pointing the finger at them and saying see you're being inconsistent here here and here.

38:51

I Need to be in a church where I can invite people to come to my church and they're not gonna be running into the same thing and that ended up in 1989 in My family moving to Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church where I was for nearly 30 years and so It that I want to encourage

39:14

Young men to stay firm and to not compromise on these things but at the same time we need to be even if we are to even if you were to like get together with one of your elders and Say, you know, have you ever read the

39:31

London Bapst Confession? You know 1689. It's an amazing thing and yeah, and you know, it has some tremendous texts in here and it

39:40

Have is there a reason why we don't hold this if you want to start introducing that discussion it has to be done

39:49

Respectfully and graciously and if and it's happened many many times if In the final analysis you end up having to go elsewhere it should always and only be because Either you've been asked to and I've had that happen more than once.

40:10

I've had I've had people call this program over the years and They graciously did all of that and found themselves on The outs real fast and they were shocked

40:23

I've had that happen. So I'll just warn you ahead of time. Sometimes you can be just smiling and just And boom, you're you're you're out of there and didn't even know what happened

40:35

But I just want to encourage people to not if you if you end up leaving you've got to leave for the right reasons graciously and and if you meet

40:47

People from that church five years down the road Hopefully you can shake hands and pray with them and and there's grace and love and everything else

40:57

I just want to try to encourage especially reformed men Not to continue our own

41:06

Reputation of You know walking into meetings with the elders with a flamethrower type of situation.

41:12

What's wrong with you people? You know, we don't want to we don't want to do anything like that At the same time you have to realize if there is a confession or a statement of faith of the church

41:23

That is specific and clear enough to specifically say that's not what we believe

41:31

Then it's not our job to try to change that Unless you're in the leadership unless you are one of the elders or something, which would be strange

41:39

But it's not our job to try to change someone already has a statement of faith that says we don't believe that I think it would be better to be a part of a fellowship that has

41:52

Clear statement of belief that we do believe this and then as you have relationships outside introduce people to these things and and give them books to read and things like that and Not trying to foment rebellion from inside but to just simply be light and and salt and light from outside a situation like that, so You know every situation is different and there are some churches that are

42:24

Just don't really have almost any position because they never even think about it I'm not sure how you preach verse by verse or do anything expositionally without running into these passages but It sometimes does happen so It is a real but it's a it's a it really requires balance maturity patience to try to be a positive influence where there is an opportunity to be a positive influence and If there isn't a way of being a positive influence, then

42:59

I don't think starting a rebellion is the way to do things Find you know find other church

43:05

And leave graciously with with as much love and concern

43:12

As is humanly possible so There you go. There's and every situation is different.

43:19

You know, I've had people call their hearts were broken I've had I've had pastors call who came to understand the doctrines of grace and now they've been kicked out because they started to consistently exegete scripture in light of what scripture itself is teaching and And all sorts of other combinations along the way so Is any of that relevant?

43:40

Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate that a lot because that's been my approach is to gently and kindly

43:49

Introduce what I'm so excited about and but I tend to get some funny responses and the truth and I think the church framework allows me to be a member there allows me to To fellowship it just the fellowship seems to be wanting on my part and I want it

44:13

I have that desire Because it's so it's helped me to really see

44:21

Salvation is all him and none of me right and I've learned that So much more in my older years.

44:28

I'm same age as you and it's you don't sound the same age as me I Honestly, you're you're very fortunate your voice really would would make you sound younger than my kids

44:43

Wow, well, I've had five and it's been quite the journey, but it and I'll say one little quick thing

44:50

I was I went to University of Idaho and While I was up there as a new believer

44:56

Come out of the Catholic Church and got out of that from the Bible anyway when I went up to there

45:01

I didn't know anybody new new believer, and I discovered Doug Wilson's church in The body shop we met in the body shop and I thought wow, this is cool

45:13

And I learned so much. I really appreciate him and I didn't know You know now

45:19

I've listened to Doug and I'm I still I reached out to him the other day because he gets attacked a lot

45:24

For things he does unjustified. But anyway, I just hey, I appreciate you and I remember going and singing some songs and learning guitar chords from you and your house and Anyway, is this fun?

45:38

So I thought is it the same house? He's still in You know, I I don't know cuz that was a lot.

45:44

I was 1984. I think yeah. Yeah. Yeah Well, I was gonna ask well you talking about being up in Moscow, okay,

45:54

I've been up there a few times myself So yeah, well, that's that's great. Well, well, it's interesting so much

46:00

Of what I commented on was based upon my assumption of your age from your voice

46:06

And so that's that's rather rather interesting and intriguing Commentary there there itself.

46:12

So but yeah, I still think I still think Eventually you come to for me you come to a point

46:21

Where you can't have every Sunday as a battle There are times you just need to come and have fellowship in truth and so You know

46:34

That and for me I have to have consistency between what's being preached from the pulpit and What I am speaking in my ministry as I travel and do debates and stuff like that I can't have one thing there and one thing that I I can't so there has to be that level of consistency and not everybody's in the position that I'm in but It should all be marked by grace, but anyways,

46:58

I appreciate your phone call and and God bless you in your ministry Bless you.

47:04

All right. Thank you. God bless. Bye. Bye I'm sorry Did I Okay.

47:12

All right, Jed I guess you're according to rich you're next and ask and by the way ask

47:17

Jeremy if that last call actually answered his question if he wants to Expand on that Jed.

47:25

Go ahead Can you hear me? I can sir Well, first of all,

47:30

I'd like to thank you. Dr. White for having me on I've been reformed since July August of last year when my pastor told me how devastating to the faith it is

47:44

Especially Calvinism. Oh, okay So that kind of I think

47:49

God used that to lead me into studying his word and I had never heard of it before Well, I knew about the

47:56

Reformation was Martin Luther and his 95 theses because that's all they teach in school Probably yeah yeah, but I got to Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 through 2 8 to 9 and I got

48:08

Kicked in the face and punched in the gut and knocked out by God's sovereignty and His freedom to save whomever he so chooses to right, but My main thing was in the debate with my provisional headache

48:24

Clayton flowers You wait a minute your provisional headache Your everyone everyone's provisional headache.

48:32

No, no, no, no, no, no go go to his go to his his YouTube page and just over the past week just look at the videos over the past week and I think

48:43

I'm in 90 % of them so Yeah, yeah, so I think he's mine and you all get to suffer along with me but I yeah

48:53

Yeah, so one thing I noticed is him and in the debate is one thing is even in his videos and articles

49:02

He can't stay on topic and he brings up verses that just don't fit the context of the scripture and He always equates the drawing in John 6 44 when

49:16

Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day.

49:22

He equates the drawing to the wooing like a lot of non -reformed Christians do But everywhere else is used in the

49:29

Greek. It's to dragging like when they dragged Paul and Silas out and Dragon Paul before the court

49:36

So if you got to be consistent I've always equated the drawing to dragging like Jesus God's dragging you to the

49:44

Sun But it was for me in the debate. It was his

49:50

Verse 45 is what I think he was struggling with because he's trying to equate it to When it says it is written in the prophets and they will all be taught by God Everyone who has heard and learned from the

50:03

Father comes to me He was trying to say everyone has heard and learned but they don't they don't come because of Well, let me let me let me

50:14

Let me correct a couple things here. It's just just just simply so that we're being accurate with what he said now many

50:22

Synergists will try to Say that Helco to draw

50:29

Is just a wooing You know, it doesn't have it's not powerful.

50:35

It doesn't actually accomplish anything. He actually wasn't saying that when he went to Now, I don't know exactly how he does this, but now he did say in the debate that God the

50:49

Father was drawing people to Jesus at this point in time, but now in the gospel era

50:54

It's Jesus who's doing the drawing. So I I think he was saying that we are

51:03

Drawn differently than someone at this time was because the Jews Were being used to bring about the crucifixion or something like that I'm not not thousand percent certain exactly where he's coming from But one of the things that he did what one of the unique things about his position that again

51:20

I did mention in my opening statement was The the tricky part here is that what he's saying is

51:30

Yes Everyone who's drawn by the Father does come to the Sun. It's not wooed

51:35

It is a powerful thing because they have already come to the

51:41

Father They've already learned and heard from the Father They've come to the

51:46

Father and therefore because they've come to the Father The Father gives them to the Son and they will come to the

51:53

Son because of the unity of the Father and the Son that's his point and so what he's doing is he's reading something into verse 45 an ability to hear an ability to learn and Saying see these people had the ability to hear and learn because he specifically says they should all be taught of by God is was of all of Israel all of Israel had been taught by God and Those who heard and those who learned came to the

52:22

Father and therefore are given to the Son So that's where the human ability and autonomy comes in is it's being squished into verse 45

52:32

Now he has said since then That he's got to change his book because in conversation with Kuritco the the

52:44

Guy who graduated from Oxford the Kuritco saying no, you don't have to do that. You can you can

52:49

Say that all those who are taught are also those who hear and learn how

52:56

I'm not sure because The point is and I posted this on on Twitter last week and I should bring it up because I think it was the simplest explanation

53:05

I've given but Fundamentally the issue in the debate and the issue still is

53:12

Jesus is Jesus is giving the scriptural foundation for the assertion

53:19

He made in verse 44 and that is that no one is able to come to him Unless the father who sent him draws him

53:27

That's going to be repeated in 665 and that's why the disciples walk away because it's offensive to them to be told

53:34

You don't have the ability to come to me in and of yourself Unless it's granted you the father now his position is it's granted to those who come to the father

53:43

But the point is in verse 45 When you have the citation from Isaiah 54

53:50

Jeremiah 31 depending where it's from prize a 54 They shall all be taught by God.

53:56

That is the drawing. That is Jesus saying here's the drawing Here's what it looks like the father

54:03

Draws all of them and all of them that are then taught by God Hear and learn and come to me.

54:13

It's all of God It's all of God's doing and he admitted in that one cross -examination question

54:19

I said, you know What if verse 45 actually follows verse 44 and these are all divine?

54:27

Actions the drawing is of the father the teaching is by God the hearing the learning is the result of being taught by God if This is stuff that God is doing.

54:36

What does that do to your system? And what was his response? He said your tulip? Perspective would be correct there.

54:44

There it is that yeah, he's right and that's what it is and that's the only way to read it consistently and People have been saying and there's some guy

54:53

Some Molinist or something on Twitter Said oh, you're making up these hermeneutical rules about this.

55:00

I think I'm not making up any hermeneutical rules at all It is astonishing to me that people are actually arguing that you shouldn't start at John 635 and Read through to John 665 and allow the text to define what terms it's using in the way it's using it

55:18

When people jump out of the text without doing that work first They're doing is

55:24

Jesus. All I'm saying is you start in this text You'd let it define its own terms if you want to go someplace else after that To illustrate what the text is saying or to shine further light on it.

55:38

That's fine, but that's not what they're doing They don't like what it says because if God is the one that's doing all of this

55:47

Then it's teaching You know, I think the I think the chapter title in the potter's freedom was

55:54

John 6 Jesus teaches Calvinism That's what it's teaching. And so they try to get out of John 6 bring stuff in read it upside down I did with one guy who complained about that Interpret his tweet upside down and wrote it back to him and it's like you don't like that either, huh?

56:14

Maybe John doesn't like that. Maybe Jesus doesn't like that when you do that with his own words. I don't know it's possible

56:21

But that's that's the you know people Need to know at least what he was arguing in the debate is that all those the father gives the son will come to the son

56:32

But it's not because God can sovereignly give people to Jesus it's because they've already enabled him to do so by coming to him themselves and Then all of that giving permission to the father to give him to the son in a sense in a sense.

56:50

Yeah except it's still It still leaves us wondering what's going on now because it seemed during the cross -examination that he was saying

56:59

No one's being the only it seemed like what he was saying is the only ones being drawn by the father now would be ethnic

57:05

Jews and Everyone else is being drawn by Jesus. I Don't know how that works differently

57:12

I I I don't know because it's and that brings up this heart disharmony in the

57:18

Trinity of the Atonement Because if you don't have Trinitarian harmony in the Atonement you have

57:23

Jesus doing one operation one plan Which is not the will of the father and got the father has his will which is what?

57:31

Jesus says I have come down to do in John 6 John 10 and then his prayer in John 17

57:38

And what Paul relates to in Romans 1 through 11 Well, that's that's what we're supposed to be debating with Jason Breda, but we never really actually got into into that Yeah, he didn't get into that.

57:50

He he was brought up the whole early church leaders and well The thing there was

57:56

Romans 1 through 8 is actually about Jewish Christian believers and not

58:02

Gentile Christian believers and I but yeah, Paul Paul in Romans 3 writes You know both

58:08

Jews and Gentile. Oh, I know This this tea and late they just all the

58:17

Arminians and consist Arminians or semi -plagian open theists Just skip over that verse or that section where Paul's talks about both

58:27

Jews and Gentiles Yeah, because Like I got I have the 1689

58:32

Baptist Confession of Faith But I'm in a church that just like the previous guy

58:39

Kind of stuck in a church where it's non -denominational, but even that in and of itself is a denomination, right?

58:46

they broke off from the restoration movement, which I do agree with pastor Durbin that in scripture the restoration movements impossible because You know

58:58

Jesus says I will lose none of all that the father has given me and that includes the church his bride because if you lost them and they apostatized and Jesus failed and Yeah, there's failed.

59:11

There's a lot of groups that call themselves restorationists and things like that It depends on what they're trying to store realize what don't know what right

59:19

Campbell stone movement hot, right? Right, right, right, but but hey, hey brother, we got to get to another call real quick And then it'd be last one for the program today.

59:26

We're run out of time. I appreciate your call. Hope it was helpful to you All right, all right, thank you god bless hey,

59:34

I just want to Apologize to Noah and Jeff here.

59:41

Did what did Jeremy say? Did he say I did or didn't? It we still have time.

59:46

Yeah, we're gonna try to get one more in and we Will try to do this a little more often

59:54

It's a little more work intensive for rich than it is for me To be honest with you, so let's go ahead and do it more

01:00:02

Cuz you know He doesn't really have much else to do, you know,

01:00:08

I mean I do all the work on the program He just sits over there and makes faces at me through the window and the windshield

01:00:17

So we'll try to do this a little bit more often and we'll try to get to some of those other questions But we'll get sneak one more in here

01:00:23

With Troy on both the Bretta and flowers debates sort of keep the the theme going here

01:00:31

Dr. White, how are you? I'm doing well So First of all,

01:00:37

I guess I just wanted to say so I I watched the late and flowers debate, right when it came out

01:00:42

Pretty much And I had meant because I knew you were doing that that trip with the with the five debates and I was able to keep

01:00:49

Up with it, but I missed the Jason Bretta debate And I ended up watching the the

01:00:54

Bretta debate after the well, it wasn't it wasn't like I don't believe it wasn't live stream

01:00:59

So that's why you you probably you you you were like everybody else. You couldn't keep up with it, right?

01:01:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that would make sense then but one thing that was interesting was and I think this this was very

01:01:13

You know, I saw a lot of it in the in the flowers debate Was that you have basically?

01:01:21

Late and flowers was kind of yeah, I don't know. He was it seemed like he was hacking up the text You know in in in in John six

01:01:28

I mean, I basically what I saw in that in that debate was that it seemed like you're up there giving a consistent methodical presentation that steps right through John six from you know from start to beginning at least the parts of John six that were relevant to The debate from start, you know from from start to end

01:01:46

But one thing that I thought was interesting was then once I did get around to watching the debate with Jason Bretta I saw something very similar where where you're just stepping right through Romans eight from you know from you know

01:02:01

Where of course where it becomes relevant all the way to the end and then both guys when they tried to refute your position

01:02:08

They ended up just like hacking up the text and putting I just I felt like there were there were arbitrary

01:02:14

Lines being drawn by them like throughout the text like for example like with with late and You know, of course as some of the other guys already said reading 645 back into 644 and then there was even a point

01:02:27

I think where he'd correct me if I'm wrong, but he tried to draw a line like in the middle of John 645, right?

01:02:34

Yeah, well I asked yeah, I asked him about they shall all be taught and everyone

01:02:40

And at that time he distinguished between the two To be fair to him. He has since said that he's gonna have to literally edit his new book

01:02:49

Because he's now changed his view on that, but I and I don't know how he could change his view on that Because of the fact that they shall be taught by God is

01:03:00

Jesus's scriptural foundation for drawn So if all that are taught by God from his perspective all of Israel was taught by God So it

01:03:12

I don't know how I don't know how we can do it, but we'll see Yeah, and of course in the in the

01:03:19

Jason Breda debate. It seemed seemed really like like I guess Similar it was it was obvious in the in the late and flowers debate

01:03:27

But I think because I had seen the flowers debate first and then I went to watch the Jason Breda debate later

01:03:33

I noticed it with him too. And obviously I know that he's You know, he's he's kind of in that same stream of thought as Yeah, yeah, yeah

01:03:45

Jason only left he he was a part of a church that is reformed and then he left to start putting out videos as to why he left and I don't think you know what happened was when

01:04:03

Jeffrey Rice Asked me to do another debate at the conference

01:04:11

We're looking for someone to do it with I did not want to do it with dr. Ross who we debated last year

01:04:16

I just did not appreciate the way he handled things and I just wasn't looking forward to it at all and So I suggested

01:04:24

Jason Breda and I did not expect Jason Breda to do it. I really didn't I just thought well

01:04:30

I'm not sure who else to suggest because I'll be debating Leighton the next week or two weeks after and He accepted once he accepted

01:04:42

I'm pretty certain that what happened was the provisionist contacted him and started

01:04:49

You know trying to prepare him for this debate And so I honestly think that in a in a way he was presenting material that really wasn't his

01:04:59

Or was only newly his and It's hard to defend

01:05:07

Positions that you didn't actually come to on your own or that you've only recently Adopted and So I think

01:05:15

I think what happened with the the key issue in the Breda debate was okay

01:05:21

I've presented Hebrews 7 24 through 25 is one of my key passages. I've presented that in my books for decades

01:05:28

John Owen presented it as central in his presentation on this subject. There's nothing new about this

01:05:34

You have to be able to respond to this So what's the meaning of this text? And while I'm not going to do that, it would take me too long to do that And it's like what?

01:05:43

What? That's where everybody was going I'm sorry

01:05:50

That's what you hear. That's what he's there for. He's there to debate a text like that It's central to the whole it's central to the whole debate.

01:05:57

Yep. Yep. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But So that's what

01:06:02

I think was going on there to be honest with you the stuff about Romans 1 through 8

01:06:10

Just doesn't hold any water at all. I it wasn't even presented in such a way to where you could understand

01:06:16

But what are you talking about? I mean, there's just there's there's times and the

01:06:21

Jews are being referred to in the third person and it just It just does not follow but there there are a couple of folks trying to come up with desperate ways around These key texts.

01:06:34

There's the other guy I talked about back in December here on the dividing line that tries to make

01:06:40

Ephesians 1 about only the Apostles and stuff like that and it just results in Incredible twisting of scripture.

01:06:48

You can't apply it outside of these texts at all and and so yeah, it

01:06:55

Consistency that's that's the big issue all along you need to be consistent. So Anyway, but thank you

01:07:01

Troy for the phone call and thanks to everybody who? Called in today again.

01:07:06

My apologies to those that we didn't get to we we did sort of try to go with the topic keep the topic sort of flowing of the five debates and Next time maybe we'll just make it wide open

01:07:18

Though I I've never I never want to be I never want to pretend to be the Bible answer, man

01:07:24

And and go any topic under the Sun. There's just a lot of muggle. I don't know I try to be honest about stuff like that.

01:07:33

So anyway, uh, thank you for now. Wait a minute. It's today is Tuesday We're gonna have to ask for your indulgence

01:07:42

With the debates coming up got to be careful about that. I don't know

01:07:49

Yeah, yeah not indulgences, um, I don't know exactly

01:07:56

My gut feeling is since Thursday's gonna be the hottest day of the week almost 90

01:08:01

That's when rich and I will be moving everything from one RV to the other RV That's just how things work

01:08:10

But we'll see We we could have to be doing RV stuff on Thursday, we'll just try to You know do what we can do to get a program in by the end of the week and But it's hard to say when it's going to be because we have to be flexible

01:08:32

Because they're doing work on it. And then all of a sudden we're gonna get a call and say, okay Rave ready for you to come and move everything out of the one into the other and pick this thing up and get it out of here and all that kind of fun stuff and we've got to just be ready to roll and and do it because Then we're taking it from the dealership

01:08:51

Parking it setting it up getting power and stuff like that getting the slide outs and then rich gets to work his magic in Routing cables and you have to and you have to route cables in such a way

01:09:05

That like That the slides come in and out. So you you have to you know, you have to you can't have those cables tight

01:09:12

Or something like that. You're gonna be ripping everything up so you got to think all these things through and keep things functional and It'll be it'll be interesting.

01:09:21

And like I said at first pretty plain background, but we're working on it

01:09:27

We'll work on it for the this. Yes.

01:09:32

See Richard rich wants me to Rich wants me to let you all know because you know,

01:09:39

I can talk about my 187 moderated public debates But rich wants you to know this will be his fifth or sixth

01:09:49

Studio setup. So we have we have this and we have the lights and the cameras and we've got the big studio and we you know, this used to look very different than it does now and Then we we had the you know studio in the in the

01:10:07

Jayco which There was a studio.

01:10:13

Well You're calling that a studio It was it was just we're talking about in the garage when we first, you know, we started doing the dividing line online

01:10:26

We yeah, but you could barely hear me over the air conditioner. What are you talking about? All you had to do with that with that was to mount the microphone on the on my desk so that you know so anyway

01:10:40

So I'm not sure I'm starting to think that rich is doing the Ergen Kanner thing on on the studios

01:10:47

What? Yes, we took colors We did take colors and we did our first radio free

01:10:53

Geneva in the in the in the in the garage, too So yes, anyway

01:10:58

Mm -hmm much to be doing pray that we don't you know

01:11:05

If I'm carrying a box out of the old RV I've got to go down three steps.

01:11:12

Well, let's say let's say I'm up in the top I've got to go down two steps Then over and then down three steps and across and up four steps and then up two more steps

01:11:19

So we're gonna be getting a workout To and and when you're carrying boxes, you can't see steps for a while And we're gonna we're gonna be both of our calves are gonna be all

01:11:31

Get done with all this though. Anyways, we're gonna be working hard So we'll let you know on the a and o app if you haven't download the a and o app

01:11:38

What are you doing? Why you even have a phone if you don't download is you got you gotta have it on here Even though I have to say rich.

01:11:44

Did you remember to? To send out the notification of the program today because I didn't get it

01:11:52

I did I did not get the the a and o app did not notify me today Normally dings right before the program starts.

01:11:58

So anyway, so we'll let you know YouTube and o app when we're gonna do the program again this week.

01:12:05

We'll sneak one in as best we can Pray for us as we just do work getting stuff organized getting stuff put away getting stuff functional and Getting ready to go on the road again to do the debates with Jimmy Akin.

01:12:19

We'll see you next time on the program Don't forget the travel fund at a min org We're buying batteries and tires and stuff like that.