Washington Conference, JefftheGK and IFD, the Lollards

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October 16, 2017

Went straight to the office from the airport upon my return from Dallas to do the program today. Was joined by Mike O'Fallon of the Sovereign Alliance at the top of the hour, talking about the tour to Germany a few weeks ago, and about the upcoming Washington Summit he is organizing. Then we moved into a lengthy review and response to Jeff Dornik regarding "IFDs." Gave him the opportunity to call in and respond, but alas, he must have been too busy to do so. Finished up talking about the Lollards in our Reformation history recap. A "jumbo" edition today! More to come later in the week!

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00:36: Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. It's three o 'clock on a Tuesday afternoon. I just landed from Dallas, Fort Worth.
00:44: I do not have anything on the screen to know which camera to look at. And we came straight here from the airport so that we could do a
00:52: Dividing Line today. Nope. And that's what we're going to do. But we've got a lot to get to today.
01:00: We left off in our, nope, nothing, nothing up there. Flying blind today, huh?
01:07: Okay, well, I'll just do what I do. Yeah, we need to get back to our
01:17: Reformation stuff. I spoke in the Reformation last night at Tom Box Church in Lindale, Texas.
01:24: I was with Emilio Ramos and the folks there in Frisco or Little Elm.
01:32: I guess Frisco is technically where it is. Over the weekend, I had a great time there. We'll maybe talk a little bit more about that, but met a bunch of great folks.
01:42: Went stargazing with Jason Lyle. Look, I'm sorry, but I'm now hooked. I am now hooked.
01:50: Being able to see, it's one thing to look at a picture, to see it and to go, oh, it's right up there.
01:59: He showed us, real quick here because we need to get to Michael Fallon, but he showed us a binary star.
02:08: It was the last thing that we looked at, called Albireo.
02:15: I don't even know how to describe it, but it's a binary star. It looks like one star from here to the naked eye, but when you see it, he has a 14 -inch reflector.
02:28: The two stars, one is a beautiful blue and the other is just made out of gold.
02:34: The two of them together, it was amazing. We saw the Andromeda Galaxy, the
02:41: Ring Nebula, incredible view of Saturn. You know, his
02:51: IQ is like twice mine, which ain't saying much, but he's just a brilliant, brilliant guy.
02:59: He's just pointing, well, this is here and that is there. It's just incredible. It was a blast.
03:06: We had a great time. Anyway, just got back and I've had a great, doing a lot of great times, things recently.
03:16: Just a matter of weeks ago, I was in, Ich war in Deutschland, and we were visiting the key sites in the
03:28: German Reformation. That was made available to us, made possible because of a lot of hard, hard, hard work on the part of Sovereign Alliance.
03:41: Many of you know Michael O 'Fallon as the voice of our long past cruises and especially that one that he'll never get away from, which was the advertisement he did for our cruise to, well,
03:57: Mike, would you like to, where did we go? Do you remember? Alaska. Yes.
04:05: Alaska. Oh, you did it so breathlessly and it was just, well, unfortunately
04:11: I rehearsed Romans 8, 18 through 39 all morning and then delivered it this morning.
04:18: Oh, okay. A little raw. A little raw on the voice. I fully understand.
04:23: I fully understand. But anyway, so first of all, before we talk about what's coming up,
04:30: I want, I know you've been extremely busy and lots of stuff going on and things like that, but I have been very exuberant about the experience that we had and I said straight forward, look, folks, if you ever want to do something like that, you need to go with the people who know how to do it.
04:53: And that's Sovereign Alliance. That's Mike O 'Fallon. You have, you provided an incredible experience.
05:00: And so my sincere thanks to you and to your team, Kathy and Janica, you all did a tremendous job.
05:06: And I know we can't announce anything about future plans, but dude, we've got to, we've got to, we've got to schedule stuff because we didn't finish everything that needs to be done.
05:18: So my sincere thanks for taking us to Germany and letting us see some incredible stuff. I think one of the amazing parts of God's grace and how he works through broken vessels is that he was able to work through Germans so many years ago.
05:34: Just amazing. But anyway, sorry, I have a little German in me too.
05:41: You're doing very well at beating him up too, I may point out. Oh, yes,
05:49: Germany, the desert of service. The good news may be sometime soon.
05:55: We can't say exactly when, of course, Dr. White and I have to have that discussion. Yes. When he's not traveling,
06:00: I'm not traveling. And when we're not, both are disposed. But we might be having more fondue than we really care to have at some point in the future.
06:08: So we'll discuss that at some point. We've got to, we've got to. Fondue and snowcaps.
06:14: But anyway, we did have a fantastic time. And I think one of the things we always want to make sure that we do is that we try to not look at things as touring.
06:25: We try to look at things in terms of having great experiences. Now, we don't want to go all
06:31: Henry Blackaby on everybody right now. But in essence, when you are in places where God has worked strongly, where people have really counted their lives as if there was no cost to their lives, and that all of the value is in the
06:50: Gospel, when you're in those places, when you're able to, as well, worship in those places, to be there, that's really what brings everything alive.
06:58: And as well, we certainly want to ensure that Dr. White and as well, Josh Bice, had all the opportunities to preach and teach and help us to learn more.
07:09: And boy, did we learn a lot this past tour with Dr. White. Some things that maybe we didn't get a chance to necessarily see.
07:17: The name that keeps on coming up with my team is the name Fritz Erb. Fritz Erb, yeah. And, you know, just really what happened there.
07:27: And then as I told that story, several times, people look at me like, well, why would they do that?
07:35: You have to put yourself back in a situation in time, and that's maybe possibly one of the things we'll be addressing at a future conference.
07:42: But, you know, that's something that maybe we need to look at in all times, is to look at both the good and the, of course, the bountiful changes that happened within Central Europe, and as well in London and Scotland, because of those risks that were taken.
08:02: But then as well, we need to look at some of the unintended consequences, which happened thereafter, because men are fallen.
08:09: Yeah. Well, it was a much more complex situation. I, you know, starting the first night, I said, look, we do not want to have a cartoonish view of the reformers.
08:19: And so we followed through the whole week, and I really hope our folks got a really good, balanced education.
08:27: So my thanks to you for all of that. We certainly look forward to future things, but other things coming up.
08:34: So my understanding is you wanted to let us know about what's taking place in just a few weeks. Well, from October the 30th through November the 1st,
08:44: I do want to ask everybody, where will you be on October 31st, when we are celebrating the 500th anniversary of the
08:50: Reformation? And what we have done is, we are having a conference that is geopolitical in nature, political and science in nature, but what we've done is we've carved out a day where we are going to be spending time in celebration of the
09:07: Reformation. And when we say celebrating the Reformation, again, we would want to hearken back to what
09:12: Dr. White had just said, that we don't have a cartoonish view of the reformers, but that we are able to look fully at both the positives, the negatives, the consequences of which came out of the
09:26: Reformation, as well the shoulders that we stand on, as well as the foundations for the United States that would eventually come.
09:33: So we're going to be looking at that, and Dr. White will be speaking with, as well,
09:40: Steve Lawson and Dr. Josh Bice. And as well, there's somebody else by the name of Summer that will be speaking.
09:46: Summer, what's her name now? Summer Jaeger. Jaeger. Jaeger. Jaeger.
09:52: Jaeger. Jaeger. Jaeger Meister. So, Summer Jaeger will be speaking as well.
09:58: I think she's going to be speaking with something to do with intersectionality, as well as a lot of the different CRT theories, and how they are kind of becoming accepted within the
10:09: Gospel, and how we need to watch out that that is poison. But that'll be happening on the 31st, and we have tried to make an exceptionally inexpensive opportunity for folks.
10:22: This will be held — brace yourselves, though, because you probably thought you'd never hear this on the dividing line — it will be held at the
10:30: Trump International Hotel in Washington, D .C. The tickets for three days of the conference start at $59.
10:38: So we do hope you'll take that opportunity. You can certainly stay at any other hotel anywhere within the 5, 6, 10 -mile radius and come on in, but we'd love for you to work —
10:50: So if you've ever driven in Washington, D .C., you may not want to do that. Yeah, there's a reason why that metro works so well, as well as Uber is a wonderful thing over there.
11:01: Dr. White, what are you going to be addressing? Well, you know, I'll tell them all what you've asked me to address, and I do what
11:10: I'm asked to do. I'm just — I'm still going —
11:16: I'm going to want to be free enough to try to make connections to what other people are talking about. But you, specifically, have asked me to address the two
11:25: Luthers, specifically how we can put together the younger
11:31: Luther and his plea for freedom and his attitude, for example, toward the
11:38: Jews in his early years and attitude toward the peasants and etc.,
11:43: etc., with the older Luther, the post -1525 Peasants' Revolt Luther, who is a little bit more of what we might call a theological curmudgeon.
11:55: And what caused that? What was that all about? And that goes back to what we were actually talking about briefly when we talked about the tour, concepts such as Constantinianism, sacralism, the
12:06: Magisterial Reformation, etc., etc. So if that sounds scary to you, please remember that last evening in East Texas I did two full hours on the
12:17: Reformation and actually kept everybody quite interested, though having pictures to show, show and tell, with Uncle Jimmy was really, really helpful, especially a couple of those shots that I took with Kathy down into Fritz Erba's cell.
12:38: That's, I imagine your pictures are probably better than my iPhone pictures, but it's sort of hard to get the, it's really hard to catch that.
12:46: That's... I'll get you your pictures, sir. I will get those to you. I know there's been consistency on your part in requesting,
12:54: I promise I'll get them. Well, but I mean, you have a, you had a real lens. And I really think a iPhone lens, you just,
13:02: I don't know, you can't catch depth. And looking that far down, people are like, seriously.
13:07: But anyways, I did use the photos from the trip to sort of illustrate these things.
13:15: And people really found it fascinating. So that's what we'll be talking about and really looking forward to it.
13:21: Now, is that all that's going on? Well, that's not all. As well, we have
13:27: Dr. Bice, that will be addressing the Reformation to America. And Dr.
13:32: Steve Lawson, that'll be addressing the heroic boldness of Martin Luther. Then we have a lunch break.
13:39: And then Summer Jaeger is going to be doing, we can't make
13:44: America great again with radical feminism. So she's not trying to step on any toes there.
13:50: No, no, she's, she's very careful about never doing that. Yes, but she'll be doing that at 1 .30. Then Kelly Monroe Kohlberg is going to be addressing something that is going to be pretty controversial, but something that you should hear.
14:02: Kelly Monroe Kohlberg, of course, is the founder, the former founder of the Veritas Project, which then occurred within Ivy League schools.
14:13: She'll be addressing rent and evangelical, which is something that's been happening quite a bit lately from liberal leftist groups.
14:20: And then as well, we'll be addressing identity politics and the Marxist fraud of white privilege.
14:26: Oh, sorry. That's going to cause any problems. No, no, never. But we have a number of announcements that will be coming up within the next 24 to 48 hours.
14:37: We have a couple of confirmations that I've just spoken to before I went on air today, and we'll look forward to just leaking those out and helping you to understand what's going to be happening through all three days.
14:49: We do have a couple of very, very, very big names that are possibly going to be confirming, and those things sometimes only happen five to six days before as they work out their other schedules with international visits, etc.
15:04: But we have that. On the other side of things, on the 30th, it will be much more of a geopolitical kind of addressing of things.
15:14: So understand this, though. When we look at October 31st, that's our time to really address the
15:21: Reformation. And that's when we really want to make sure that as well, we are inviting in, and this is something we're doing actively right now, we are inviting in folks from Congress to come, please, please, and listen to the truth of the
15:35: Reformation. If you're going to be any place to celebrate that, this would be the place to be. So we do hope you'll make it.
15:43: So we can't talk about anything else I might be doing then? Not quite yet. We've got to work that out.
15:51: A little pushback on the other side. We'll hopefully be able to work all those things out here within the next 24 hours.
16:00: So I may be hearing from you after we get done with the dividing lines, what you're saying. That is my hope. But the
16:06: Lord is in control and He is sovereign. We can always debate bow ties and things like that. All right.
16:13: Well, I know you're putting a lot of work into this and it's coming up real fast, really, really fast.
16:19: It is. And folks, again, I would really ask you to take a look and see what we're doing, who we have speaking for the different topics and so forth.
16:28: October 30th, November 1st, $59 at the Trump International D .C.
16:33: This will be all occurring in the Lincoln Library, which is an absolutely fantastic room.
16:40: We really want to make this a landmark event. And that's one of the reasons that we're holding this here. And we really believe that there's a lot that can be accomplished by really trying to be in the center of the federal triangle.
16:54: I mean, our conference is going to be right next door to the IRS and to the
17:00: Department of Justice and the FBI. It's right across the street. Oh, that might be a little bothersome to some people, but we're right there in the center of things.
17:09: And that's the intention of why we're doing this. Wow. Well, I have not been in Washington, D .C.
17:16: for many, many, many years. I think I was maybe seven the last time I was there. So really?
17:22: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just remember my dad just one of the most patient men in the world, but he completely lost it while driving in Washington, D .C.
17:34: And I remember him just roaring in the car. He said, this place was designed by somebody that was on drugs.
17:40: I can see where I want to go, but no road goes there. You know, so, yeah, it was one of my childhood memories of one of the few things that got my dad really upset was trying to figure out how to get anywhere in in Washington, D .C.
17:55: So there you go. Yeah. Uber is the way to go. And I know that if you're looking at it, probably most of you, when you look at the pricing for the hotel there at the
18:04: Trump International, D .C., probably will think that that's crazy, which it is. That is probably one of the most expensive hotels in all of America.
18:13: But we do have options that are within probably one hundred forty dollars a night, et cetera, that Sovereign has been putting up.
18:21: And we have great contracts for those hotels that will be able to give you an opportunity to come. Now, if you live in the
18:27: D .C. area, please come. We want you there. Make sure that you make plans and hopefully we'll make an impact, not just on the people that are there and to, of course, edify folks that are there, but also have an impact on D .C.
18:40: All right. All right. Well, thank you, sir. And I will look forward to hearing from you maybe later on, even today.
18:46: Sounds good, sir. All right. Thanks. God bless. Thank you. All right. Michael Fallon, Sovereign Alliance.
18:52: And as I said, the gentleman that made it all possible for us to be in Wittenberg and all the other things that we did.
19:00: Exciting, exciting stuff. Real quickly, again, my thanks to Emilio Ramos and his team there in the
19:09: Dallas area, Frisco specifically. We had Phil Johnson speaking.
19:15: We had Todd Friel there. And we also had
19:20: Jason Lyle speaking. And a great time. I mean, like I said,
19:26: I'm sure that the recordings, I'm not sure if they're up yet, but they will be up eventually. Red Grace Media did live streaming and things like that.
19:34: Had a great time on a wide variety of topics. I discussed more Reformation issues and did the same thing at Emilio's church.
19:44: Of course, as some of you saw, I tweeted out that AHA showed up at both the conference and at the church on Sunday afternoon, wasting their time doing their church repent thing.
19:57: And we just ignored them. Basically, they stand outside, people walk by, they go away.
20:04: And that's sort of how that worked. But they were wasting their time out there at those two things.
20:11: But we had really good turnouts last night, a great from Monday night thing. I mean,
20:16: Monday night's not exactly the normal night you have things at church, but I had a great time last night when
20:23: Tom introduced me. We started at 630 and he had told me we're going to go to eight.
20:28: So I was like, okay, all right. And then when he introduces me, he says we're going to 830.
20:34: So I'm like, oh, okay. So I've got a fair amount of time here. Well, I used it all up.
20:39: And he got up and said, actually misspoke, but hey, we went for two solid hours.
20:46: And it's pretty easy to do when you're lecturing on the Reformation, as we will pick up with later on in this program, as we press forward.
20:55: Now, like I said, I just got back from the,
21:00: I mean, literally we drove straight from the airport here. My luggage is still, well, most of my luggage, one piece of luggage didn't make it, but I'm standing there at the carousel and my
21:13: American Airlines app goes off and says, we didn't put one of your bags on the plane.
21:18: Can we deliver it to you? So it's nice to not be the last, ever had that feeling where you're the last person watching the carousel go around and everybody else is gone.
21:31: You're like, where's my bags? And so I actually had double notification because American told me first, and then
21:40: I have a tracking device in my main bag and I hit it and it says, I'm in Texas.
21:46: So they know where it is. And so it'll get there eventually.
21:52: But my bags are outside. So I haven't had time to do a lot, but what I did do,
21:59: I know where we are in the Reformation material. We're going to get to that. I know there's a bunch of things going on.
22:07: I may have time. I don't know because I do have this next trip. It's just,
22:13: I'm only home for like 10 days and I'm gone again. Maybe not even 10 days, maybe eight.
22:19: I don't remember. Right now I've been traveling so much. I've lost track, but I may have the opportunity to make some comment on the current controversy over John Piper's stuff on justification and issues like that.
22:39: We'll see. I don't know. We'll find out. There's just so many things.
22:45: My Evernote file just has lots and lots of stuff in it.
22:52: And on stuff like that, I try to be accurate. It's really easy to do the shoot from the hip thing.
23:00: But especially when you're talking about someone like a John Piper, you want to try to be accurate in what you're saying when you address those issues.
23:09: But before we get back to the Reformation material, I guess I don't need this at the moment. Well, I will in a second. What I did as I was driving out to Lindale.
23:20: Lindale is about an hour and 40 minutes from Dallas. So there's some time there as we're traveling and Pastor Buck and I are talking and stuff.
23:30: But one of the things we did is we invested a little bit of time. And some of you are aware of the fact that a
23:38: Twitter handle, a man that my recollection is, and I haven't bothered to go back because I don't know that it's all that relevant, but a man that I think is involved in the travel industry.
23:52: Is that what you heard? Yeah, I think that's his thing.
23:57: And there's nothing wrong with being in the travel industry. Michael Fallon is. But in other words, someone who is not, as far as I can tell, trained in biblical languages, theology, church history, philosophy, logic, any of those issues, showed up on Twitter during,
24:18: I don't know, a couple weeks after the Brannon House stuff started back in May.
24:25: And I'd sort of thought that this stuff was maybe finally starting to go away a little bit, but it's popped back up.
24:34: And it's so painfully obvious that it's years old grudges on the part of certain people against large ministries.
24:43: It's really what it is. And this fellow by the name of Jeff the
24:48: GK. Well, GK stands for gatekeeper. Now, I'm not sure how you become a gatekeeper.
24:55: And in fact, here's the beginning of his program. Listen to how this program starts.
25:02: He had to have approved this, but here's how the program starts. We live in a time where the church is dominated by false teaching, the blending of truth and error.
25:13: But now there's finally someone who's taking a stand. Finally, someone who's taking a stand.
25:19: Finally. No one's ever done it before. I'm just like, really?
25:25: Seriously? You actually allowed someone to put, I'm finally here.
25:31: It's like, okay. Yeah. No one's been doing apologetics until now,
25:38: I guess. Okay. Well, anyway. So what happened starting last week is, you know, some of you will remember that Jeff, are we having any problems?
25:57: No, looking good. Okay. That Jeff the
26:04: GK showed up and he sort of became the mouthpiece for Brandon House. And we tried to engage him.
26:12: I invited him to call into the program once and he just disappeared. And then he came back and I guess he had to floss his cat's teeth or something that day or something and wouldn't call in.
26:27: I would write to him and I would try to reason with him logically.
26:33: And there just wasn't any logic coming back. And so eventually just the same refuted stuff over and over and over again.
26:45: I got tired of it. So I blocked him. Why do I block him? Because I don't want to see dumb stuff on my screen all day, basically.
26:51: I mean, that's why I block people. I don't think I have any moral requirement to allow my screen because I have this stuff up right now.
26:59: I don't, you know, seeing silly stuff on my screen all the time. I don't think I have any moral requirement to do that.
27:06: Well, a couple of weeks ago, all of a sudden people are telling me, hey, look, look what happened. Now he's got a radio program on Brandon House's network.
27:14: Evidently that is the way. Every new program I've seen since May, they got it because they were attacking either me or Phil Johnson of Grace to You or just Grace to You as a whole.
27:29: That whole thing is just so transparently jealousy and old stuff from years ago that it's sad to observe.
27:41: Especially because even connecting Grace to You with my dialogues with Yasir Qadhi is just absurd.
27:50: Grace to You doesn't support what I did with Yasir Qadhi. They don't use the arguments that these people do because they know that they are easily refuted and have been refuted and are unbiblical and shallow and silly and so on and so forth.
28:02: But they don't support, they don't even believe in doing debates. So we could have a good conversation about that, but it's just been such an obvious shallow thing for them to be attacking
28:19: Grace to You when Grace wasn't a part of these things and so on and so forth. By the way, I just happened to remember that you didn't turn on our backup recording method.
28:30: And you just thought of that too, didn't you? But you're hoping that everything's going to work out anyways.
28:42: Let's hope those were not famous last words, as they say. Anyway, so here he's going to have a 30 -minute -a -week program to basically, and he even said, even in his tweets, if James White's fans didn't like last week, they're really not going to like this week.
29:06: Send him out to keep the flames going and attack people and so on and so forth.
29:14: And it's like, okay, well, so the first week was supposed to be just sort of an introduction to who he is and stuff like that.
29:22: Okay, fine. And then this week, we're supposed to get into it. And like you said, if James White's fans didn't like last week, they're really going to, okay, all right.
29:32: And it's short enough that you can get through it very quickly, especially if you use a program that allows you to speed things up a little bit, that always helps to decrease the pain, basically.
29:44: And so we listened to it, Tom and I listened to it as we drove out to Lindale.
29:51: And there were a couple of things that were worth pointing out.
29:57: But as I started marking things, I'm like, okay, let's lay it out there.
30:05: And see, what's going to happen? I'll tell you right now, what's going to happen? Someday, Jeff's going to say something that Brand House doesn't like, and Jeff's going to get thrown on the bus by Brand House.
30:18: It's going to happen. And at that time, if Jeff ever steps back and asks himself the question, have
30:29: I listened fairly to the other side?
30:35: I want there to be opportunities where the other side thoroughly responded to everything he said.
30:41: Now, there wasn't anything new in this. And as we're going to see, one of the main issues, one of the main reasons
30:47: I'm doing this was the attitude that Mr. Dornick, his name is Jeff Dornick, demonstrated toward anyone who would respond to him or give another perspective.
31:02: This is, to me, what this controversy has exposed when it comes to a lot of the rather harsh side of evangelicalism.
31:16: And so it's a short program. I only marked a few things, but I wanted to respond to a few things. So we're going to run through it real quick.
31:22: And then we need to pick up with the Lollards and Wycliffe. So this is,
31:28: I'm playing at 1 .2, as I always mention to folks, it's a little bit faster, so we can get through a little bit quicker.
31:34: But just a few comments from Jeff Dornick's program, The Gatekeeper, whatever in the world,
31:41: I don't know what gate he's keeping. I'm not sure why he thinks he can keep any gates. But anyways, let's jump into it.
31:49: So one of the defenses of James White's interfaith dialogue with the Muslim imam, Yasir Qadhi, has been, well, every single time you share your faith with a non -Christian, that's an interfaith dialogue.
32:01: No, personal evangelism is not an interfaith dialogue.
32:07: Now, people have pointed out that if you're going to use the kind, if you're going to ignore what we said in the dialogue, we are not compromising.
32:19: We, what we believe is exactly opposite of one another on all these issues.
32:25: We're not looking for common ground in the sense of trying to come up with a compromise position.
32:31: And I'm going to be looking, that was the other main thing I want to look at, is the statement he's going to be making here very briefly, very shortly.
32:39: I'll expand upon that. But people are saying, well, look, if you're going to ignore the distinctions between liberal, compromising, interfaith dialogue and this dialogue that took place, that had no intention whatsoever of coming up with any type of compromise or anything else, then you need to go all the way and recognize that every encounter is an interfaith dialogue, every witnessing thing is an interfaith dialogue.
33:08: Well, you just heard his entire comment. He just goes, when challenged on that, his response is, well, no, and that's it.
33:21: No reasoning, just no. And you want to go, excuse me,
33:26: Mr. Dornick, why not? Given the standards that have been used, why not? Well, no.
33:33: So we just believe what you say. You don't have to substantiate it. You don't have to give any sort of, well, no.
33:41: Well, no, it's not an argument. That's not an argument at all.
33:49: So we're going to hear this more than once, just basically accept what
33:55: I say. Well, if you're going to use authoritative arguments, then you have to provide some kind of foundation.
34:03: Why should we accept your ipsedixit? Your because I say so.
34:10: I don't think working in the travel industry, if that's what he did, is sufficient to substantiate that.
34:17: So it goes on. The other defense is every single debate that James White has had with a
34:22: Muslim is an interfaith dialogue. Why don't you have a problem with that? Well, because there's a difference between a debate and a dialogue.
34:30: And then he stops and moves on. Okay, there is a difference between a debate and a dialogue. And there's a difference between the dialogue that I had with Yasir Qadhi and the liberal dialogues that you people are always pointing to as examples of compromise.
34:44: So if you accept that there's a difference between a debate and a dialogue, you just said it. What's the difference?
34:50: If you allow for that, then you have to allow for the specifically enunciated distinctions that we ourselves laid out at the beginning the first night.
35:00: You can't, on the one hand, go, well, no, or there's a difference and just believe me, and then ignore what we said in making distinctions.
35:11: It doesn't work, but it, well, wait, hopefully
35:16: Mr. Dornick might hear some of these things. The historical terminology for interfaith dialogue, or IFD, is when two religious leaders come together in a public setting to compare and contrast the two religions in order to find some sort of common ground.
35:37: Okay, the historic definition, who gave this? What? No sources.
35:45: We're just supposed to believe it. I'm going to define interfaith dialogue in this way.
35:51: Now, my definition of interfaith dialogue will be different than a debate, but I won't tell you where this historic source came from, and I won't give you any sources.
36:05: You just need to believe what I say. Okay, so I get to frame what interfaith dialogue is.
36:13: Well, what does this historical source mean when it says common ground? Because historically, in interfaith dialogue between mainline denominations or between, you know, going back to the beginning of the 20th century and the real launching of liberalism, quote -unquote interfaith dialogue between Christianity and Hinduism, Buddhism, the world religious conferences, what common ground means there is always compromise.
36:47: Always compromise. So that historical definition means that that's not what Yasir Qadhi and I were doing.
36:53: Historically speaking, if you understand history, I don't have any reason to believe Mr. Dornick has any knowledge of church history at all.
37:02: I've never seen any evidence of it. And if Mr. Dornick wants us to accept his word, then he needs to give us his credentials.
37:09: Tell us where you've taught, when you taught, what subjects you taught. Show us what you've published. What articles have you done?
37:15: What books have you done? Show us your language training. Give us some reason to accept your ipsodixit because that's all you're giving us is an ipsodixit.
37:24: Believe me because I say it. So what's the sources here? And given that historically common ground meant compromise, and we specifically eschewed that, then
37:35: I guess he needs to cancel next week's show because that means what we were doing wasn't an interfaith dialogue.
37:43: Right? Well, again, this is applying logic to the issue.
37:50: Now, I am not saying what James White did with Yasir Qadhi was Chrislam.
37:56: Good. Mr. Pierce, has anyone ever called the phone number here at the office and accused us on the basis of Brown House's material of practicing
38:05: Chrislam? He says more than one. Hmm. Okay. All right. I am not saying that he believes that Allah is the same as our
38:14: God and that we worship the same God. I am not saying that. I want to make that distinction very, very clear because that is the claim that is being made by James White and many of his followers.
38:26: Specifically, and I did not have time to queue this up, but I provided, this is why
38:32: Jeff Dornick blocked me on Twitter because I invited him to defend
38:37: Brannon House's statements back in June on World View Weekend, the video still available, the transcript still available, where he specifically used my name and then talked about those who rejoice in the coalescing of the cross and the crescent.
38:55: That is a lie. It is a lie from the pit of hell. No person with a spine, a brain, and a modicum of honesty would ever say that that is something
39:07: I want to do. And so we said to Mr. Dornick, will you defend what
39:13: Brannon House said? And then he blocked me. So that is what that is in reference to.
39:20: So it sounds to me like in the second program, Mr. Dornick is already disagreeing with Brannon House.
39:27: I think that is a good thing. You need to be able to do that. But I just want to point out that fact.
39:33: And of course, if he continues doing that, it is going to be one of the shortest run programs in the history of Christian radio.
39:41: Isn't it? The other side is that the goal is to build bridges between the religions.
39:48: And the theory is that if you build enough bridges, some of them will cross over and become
39:55: Christians. Now, that is certainly not my theory. When we talk about bridge building, we're talking about not, again, there's the liberal use of that phraseology, which is compromise, which is move toward one world religion.
40:11: Nobody who with any honesty listens to that conversation thinks that that was either of our intentions in any way, shape, or form.
40:20: But what we do believe is that there are massive barriers to communication.
40:28: I don't see that any of my critics care about that. I don't see it. They're trying to communicate with the Muslim community at all.
40:35: But those of us that are attempting to communicate with the Muslim community recognize that there are massive barriers, language barriers, understanding barriers, traditional barriers.
40:45: And if we can break those barriers down, our belief is that the gospel of Jesus Christ, when brought to someone by the power of the
40:55: Holy Spirit, brings salvation to the elect of God. And so we simply want to see, we want to release the power of the gospel by communicating it with the greatest clarity to the
41:08: Muslim people. What that involves is understanding what they believe, showing them respect, showing them kindness, showing them love.
41:19: Yes, that's what you must do. And I honestly believe that many people in the side of the critics here do not believe that you should ever show
41:28: Muslims respect. Oh, as an individual, maybe, but not their leaders. Well, wait a minute. So if an imam teaches the
41:37: Quran, that makes him a false teacher and therefore he should not be respected. But if a
41:42: Muslim man teaches his children the Quran, he's not a teacher to them and should be respected?
41:50: Exactly how well have you thought this through? That's going to come up a little bit later on when he tries to redefine terminology such as false teacher.
42:03: So let's press on. Now, in the Judge Not conference... Okay, now here's...
42:08: I'm actually going to slow this. I'm going to play this normal speed, okay? This was one of the issues.
42:18: There were two primary issues I wanted to respond to. And it's a little bit dangerous because of who he's quoting.
42:26: I did not listen to J .D. Hall's presentation at the Judge Not conference, so I don't know the accuracy of Jeff Dornick's attribution here because I have no reason to trust the attribution of Jeff Dornick.
42:40: He's certainly never represented me accurately, so maybe he's misrepresenting J .D.
42:45: Hall. I don't know. But here's what's said. Now in the
42:51: Judge Not conference, J .D. Hall made a very good point. Christianity has nothing in common with a false religion.
43:02: So how can we compare similarities with a religion that we share nothing in common with?
43:09: Think about that for a second. If you take things out of context, you can find similarities.
43:17: You can find surface -level similarities. But when you actually understand what it is that they believe, not just Islam but every single false religion, we have no similarities.
43:35: Okay? I want to make that very, very clear. We only have disagreements.
43:43: I believe that is very biblical, and I commend J .D. Hall for making that point.
43:49: Now, again, I do not know what J .D. Hall said. If J .D.
43:55: Hall said that, J .D. Hall is just as wrong as Jeff Dornick. That is the kind of fundamentalistic, anti -intellectual, anti -rational, anti -logical blather that I find so grossly offensive.
44:15: It is an insult to the mind that God has given to us. You say, wow, that's pretty strong.
44:22: Yeah, it is. It's irrational. And I don't believe that the
44:27: God who gave us minds intends us to be irrational. This is the kind of overblown,
44:36: I -want -to -get -people's -emotions -inflamed garbage that I've heard many times.
44:44: And as a younger person, I probably would have gravitated toward it. The problem is
44:50: I actually got out into the world and started talking to people and started realizing I can't function in this tiny little world where everybody looks like you and talks like you.
45:04: You can't do that. You can't take the gospel into the world when you have this kind of an attitude.
45:13: Look, when we talk about similarities, when we talk about theism versus atheism, this is a necessary distinction.
45:30: If we're going to talk with atheists, we need to understand what atheism is.
45:38: We may even have to explain the false concept of atheism within the church because the
45:45: Bible does that too. Um, that's a distinction that is made.
45:52: That means we have now said that there is a group of beliefs called theism, but then we need to make further distinctions amongst these groups.
46:02: And when you make distinctions, you are talking about both similarities and dissimilarities.
46:12: All theistic groups share a similarity versus atheism.
46:20: That's simple logic. You can't drive a car down the road if you deny this.
46:28: Right? I mean, this is basic stuff. And when I see the faith being used to promote blathering denials of basic logic, it's really offensive to me.
46:42: It should be offensive to any believing Christian. So amongst theistic groups, you now break it down into monotheistic groups, henotheistic groups, and polytheistic groups.
46:57: And there are distinctions between them. But if you're going to distinguish between the monotheists and the polytheists, you can't do that without recognizing the similarities that exist between all monotheistic faiths.
47:20: Now, only an absolutely irrational person can sit there and go, yeah, but there's only one true faith.
47:28: So all the rest of them are wrong. So there's no similarities. That's the fundamentalistic fire breathing.
47:36: I do not want to think past a certain level type mindset.
47:44: You have, if you're going to defend the idea that revealed
47:49: Trinitarian Christian theism is the truth, then you must recognize the distinctions between that and everything else.
48:01: And you can't see distinctions when you can't see similarities. If you can't tell the difference between the
48:07: Muslims and the Mormons, if you can't see that one is more extreme than another, and that means there's a similarity between Islam and Christianity in being monotheistic and having a transcendent
48:22: God over against Mormonism, it does not have a transcendent God. If you can't see that similarity, you're never, ever, ever going to be able to, in any intelligent way, interact with this other faith at all.
48:36: Zero opportunity, none. So when we sit here and go, look, with the
48:44: Muslims, we have monotheism. We have a creator. We have a given law.
48:50: We have scripture. We have heaven and hell. We have salvation systems.
48:56: You recognize that this is totally different than what you have in Hinduism. And the problem is most of these people are clueless about this stuff.
49:07: They don't know anything about the history of religions. They don't do comparative religion studies. So they don't care that you have to make these distinctions to be able to see the difference between Buddhism and Hinduism and all the forms of these things.
49:16: And then what you've got monotheism with Islam and Judaism and Christianity. And so they're just willing to throw it all out there just to try to make some point that sounds really good.
49:27: This is biblical. No, it's blathering, foolishness. It's just ridiculous.
49:33: And it's destructive of any meaningful conversation with these people. And what it demonstrates is the people saying this have never had a meaningful conversation with these people.
49:42: That's the problem. Do you realize how silly this makes us look to people who are watching this, who live out in the world and have to have conversations with these people all the time?
49:53: It's just, it's just mind numbing. It's mind numbing. It truly is.
50:00: If you can't see that it is absolutely necessary to see where the similarities exist so that you can meaningfully examine and discuss the dissimilarities to disambiguate, then you'll never communicate with these people.
50:21: You're demonstrating you don't want to. You don't care enough about these people to tell them the truth, to know the truth well enough to communicate these things to them.
50:30: It's just, it is the absolute end of any meaningful
50:35: Christian apologetic. That's all it is. And that's why
50:40: I'm passionate about it. These people are anti -evangelism and anti -apologetics. Now, does
50:45: Jeff Dornick want to do that? No, but the traditions in which he has encased himself cause him to say these absurd, ridiculous things.
50:57: And they are absurd, ridiculous things. I don't know whether J .D. Hall said that, but if that's what he said, then my words apply to what
51:05: J .D. Hall said. If you can't see the similarities, then obviously you don't understand the distinctions and the differences and cannot communicate them in a meaningful fashion.
51:17: And that's the end of apologetics. That's why I very strongly condemn those words. If it's a
51:23: Mormon, I still have a problem with it. If it's a Buddhist, I still have a problem with it. If it's an atheist, I still have a problem with it.
51:29: We should not be giving a platform to false teachers. Now, here again is just this attitude that basically says, we have to give the gospel a safe space.
51:44: If you take this to its logical conclusion, there should be no teaching in any seminary or any church about false beliefs.
51:56: And that's what you've got in some fundamentalist schools. We won't talk about what those folks out there believe, because there is a fear, an absolute fear that we might lose somebody.
52:12: No trust that Christ can keep his sheep, no trust in the power of the gospel, none of that.
52:19: It's a fear of these things. But this idea of giving them a platform, hello, they have a platform already.
52:28: What we're looking for is a platform for the gospel to go out in the world. You see, these people live in their nice, safe, evangelical churches.
52:39: This stuff just seems so silly. And I'm sorry to those of you outside the United States who are even wasting their time, but this is what we have to struggle with.
52:47: This stuff seems so silly outside the United States, where Christians are in small minorities, in multicultural nations, where they're just looking, they're just excited to get the opportunity to let the power of the gospel out and get the opportunity for it to stand next to the perspectives of the world, because it's so different.
53:10: It's not just one amongst many. I feel so sorry for people that think they have to protect the gospel.
53:16: It can't stand next to these other things. If it stands next to that work salvation system over there, someone might believe in it.
53:23: Wow, that's not exactly trusting in the work of the
53:29: Spirit of God, but that's what you've got. You can look at the Old Testament. Look at how the prophets dealt with the false prophets of other religions.
53:39: They killed them. I'm not saying we killed them. That's Old Testament. Totally different situation. We can get into the expository side of things, but they took it very seriously.
53:49: False teachers. If you came out as a false prophet in the Old Testament, I believe you were stoned.
53:55: You weren't asked to come up onto stage in front of the nation of Israel, explain your point, and then both sides can kind of go back and forth and say, hey, well, you know what?
54:03: I disagree with that, but this is what we believe. What do you think about that? Now, it's really hard to be appropriately respectful at this point because the category errors that the critics make and that Mr.
54:30: Lewandowsky makes is that it's a theocratic nation with very specific laws in regards to what constitutes being a prophet and to how the nation of Israel is to deal with false prophets, because there's two different kinds of false prophets.
54:46: You have the Deuteronomy 13 and the Deuteronomy 18 examples. You even have the idea that there could be prophets that would prophesy truly about future events.
54:58: So if you prophesy about a future event, it doesn't happen, you're a false prophet. But you can prophesy truly about future events, but if you then say go after false gods.
55:07: This is all within Israel. This has nothing to do with sending a raiding party over the
55:15: Philistines to find somebody in their religion that calls themselves a prophet and stoning them.
55:21: This is about people within the covenant community seeking to draw the covenant community away.
55:30: It's a complete misapplication. It again demonstrates Mr. Dornick lives in a nice, safe place where he's keeping all these people as far away from him as possible.
55:43: He doesn't have to interact daily with the Hindu or with the Buddhist or with the
55:48: Muslim or whatever else it might be. It's nice and safe in here in my friendly evangelical church and all is well.
55:56: That's the problem. Making a completely erroneous application as if this is relevant to having a discussion with a
56:04: Muslim where we can understand what each other believes better so that there can be better communication between us because we as Christians believe that when you do that, the gospel is going to stand on its own and God's going to use the gospel to draw his people unto himself.
56:21: We want to actually love people. We want to actually demonstrate the love of Christ for them because we believe that we have a message that they need to hear.
56:33: Are many of them going to reject it? Yeah, I've read the New Testament. It happens all the time. We're called to be faithful in those contexts, so we need to understand what other people believe.
56:45: We press forward. Now, this should be obvious. We all know how the interactions went with Jesus and the
56:52: Pharisees. They followed him around trying to catch him and got your questions, and he responded, always proving that he is
56:59: God Almighty, that he is the Messiah. Now, I only put that there because I'm just sitting here going, so every time
57:09: Jesus responded to the Pharisees, he was proving his deity. I'd love to see how
57:21: Mr. Dornick would actually defend that. Unlike Mr. Dornick, I have defended the deity of Christ against many critics from many different perspectives, but I would love to see how he would actually substantiate that statement.
57:35: That is so overblown. Are there times when
57:41: Jesus' response points certainly to his messiahship? Yes, but to his deity?
57:49: Okay, I'd like to see how you would substantiate how every single response does that, but there you go.
57:56: He called them whitewashed tombs. I don't remember James White calling a whitewashed tomb. Do you?
58:02: No, I didn't, because Yosser Qadi is not taking the role of the Pharisees.
58:08: What? What's a good point? Well, of course it's apples and oranges.
58:15: You have the scribes and the Pharisees who are in possession of God's truth, suppressing that and replacing it with their traditions.
58:27: Now, in this situation with Yosser Qadi, I am still at the point of seeking to bring clarity to his understanding of what even the gospel is.
58:39: There are many, many barriers to that understanding. That's not a parallel situation to the
58:48: Pharisees. They are in possession of God's and they are guilty of constant and repetitive, knowing repression of that truth and suppression of that truth.
59:00: Completely different context, but sticking with context and categories and things like that.
59:09: Not the strong suit of many of the critics with which we are dealing. Did Paul participate in interfaith dialogues when he was reasoning with people?
59:18: No, he was trying to convince them to become a Christian, not trying to find common ground.
59:24: He was not trying to understand their theology. He was trying to explain our theology.
59:29: He was trying to deal with explaining to the Jews that the Messiah had come and who he was and what he had done for them and that they needed to repent and put their faith in him.
59:41: That was not an interfaith dialogue. Now, of course, you'll notice the conflation.
59:48: And once again, the critics. Now, I know that there is another one of these critics. I've downloaded something.
59:55: I was planning on trying to listen to it. And then my understanding is this individual from Houston, the hurricane hit and I decided
01:00:02: I'll put it off because they're probably pretty busy and song actually try to go back and find it.
01:00:10: But I have presented a fair amount of both written and oral discussion of Paul's interactions going into the original languages and discussing what dialogue and seeking to convince and the reality that these terms require that there is a give and take.
01:00:38: It is not merely a lecture. And if Mr. Dornick would take the time to do some serious homework in the
01:00:47: New Testament, he would recognize, for example, that when Paul writes the church at Colossae, he utilizes terminology that specifically demonstrates a proficiency on Paul's part in the heretical utilization of those words by the false teachers.
01:01:07: Well, how did Paul discover that? I suppose you could, if you wanted to, assume that this was some type of special revelation that Paul had not actually inquired of people as to what the proto -Gnostics believed, what their religion was about.
01:01:29: And so I suppose if you want to go that direction, I don't know of any modern
01:01:34: New Testament scholar that would go there. The vast majority would recognize that the apostle would have made inquiries as to the teachings.
01:01:46: People would have come from the church at Colossae and maybe reported to the church at Ephesus or however it might be that these teachings are coming up and they're talking about this pleroma.
01:01:59: They're talking about gnosis. They're talking about eons. And Paul demonstrates a functional knowledge of heretical teaching.
01:02:12: Paul must have had a mentor amongst the heretics to accurately understand what they were saying.
01:02:20: And then he can refute that, utilizing their own language in warning the
01:02:25: Colossians against these things. Paul quotes from Aretas, a pagan philosopher.
01:02:31: How do you memorize a pagan philosopher? Would Jeff Dornick memorize a pagan philosopher?
01:02:38: Why? Why would you do that? It's called education. It's called having a background.
01:02:43: It's called being able to communicate with someone, to be able to bring things in, to illustrate things. This is how
01:02:49: Christian apologetics has been done for a long, long time. And now we've got a bunch of people who don't do apologetics deciding that they can criticize centuries of Christians who have because they are uncomfortable with what it might mean if they were to engage it.
01:03:10: So let me be clear. In the Old Testament, no interfaith dialogue. In the New Testament, no interfaith dialogue.
01:03:17: So that whole argument gets thrown out the window. Well, there you go. It's just all thrown out the window. You know, we don't need to, don't need to.
01:03:25: Well, and here, let me expand upon that a little bit later, because there's really not all that much left here.
01:03:32: But that'll be illustrated a little bit more. Is that finding common ground?
01:03:37: Is that coming together to join forces against the secularism that is in our culture? No. I don't see that in this passage, do you?
01:03:46: Now, let me back up a little bit on that. What agreement has the temple of God with idols?
01:03:53: Okay, so once again, the same text from Corinthians and 2
01:03:59: John were brought up. And when I heard these,
01:04:04: I'm like, okay, we have dealt with these things before. We have provided responses to these things before.
01:04:13: Will there be an analysis, a meaningful interaction with the exegesis that we have provided?
01:04:25: You're going to see that was the second point that I wanted to bring up, but I want you to hear what is said first. I would argue that James White's relationship with Yasir Qadhi and him making
01:04:37: Yasir Qadhi his mentor in Islam, wanting to make videos with him, wanting to write a book with him to educate
01:04:44: Christians about Islam? To educate Christians about Islam. Yeah, that's what we want to know.
01:04:50: Obviously, the interaction, if the reason for the dialogue, the reason for wanting to write a book would be for the information to go both directions, to open doors for the opportunity of Christians to interact with Muslims, because I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
01:05:13: If you don't believe that, then you want to close those doors, pull the shutters and say, nobody's home every time the
01:05:21: Muslim comes by or the Jehovah's Witness comes by or whoever else. That's what we've got here.
01:05:26: Nobody's home. We're happy in here. You go away now. Bye. Have a nice day.
01:05:35: That's what you've got going on here. That is a spiritual enterprise.
01:05:41: So, you have the false utilization of Paul's words of the
01:05:47: Corinthians about being unequally yoked to the idea of having conversation that allows for greater gospel communication.
01:06:00: It's category error. We've talked about this. I've gone through John MacArthur's statements on it and demonstrated where it's in error.
01:06:10: They don't care. They just keep repeating the same things over and over. That is unbiblical. This interfaith dialogue is unbiblical.
01:06:19: It is entering into a spiritual enterprise with a non -Christian in order to find common ground.
01:06:25: It was not in order to find common ground. We specifically said that. There was no compromise.
01:06:30: Again, notice the utilization of the phrase find common ground in two different ways. So, there's equivocation to try to make the argument over against the clarity of what we ourselves expressed.
01:06:44: It's all the critics have. False teachers. This isn't just dealing with any non -Christian.
01:06:50: This is dealing with how do we deal with a false teacher. Now, before we jump into this passage, I want to make this clear. Yasir Qadhi is a false teacher.
01:06:56: He brings another Christ. He teaches that Jesus is not God. Now, there's a difference between a false teacher and just a follower of a religion.
01:07:05: A false teacher is actually leading people away from Christ. A follower of another religion is simply deceived.
01:07:11: So, I want to make that distinction. So, he wants to be able to make distinctions, but we can't make distinctions. When I make the distinctions concerning the very motivations and purposes that Yasir Qadhi and I had, he doesn't know
01:07:22: Yasir Qadhi. He's had no contact with Yasir Qadhi at all. Really, almost no contact with me.
01:07:28: I tried to—and by the way, Jeff, phone line's open for you and you alone.
01:07:35: If you'd like to respond to this, we'll give you some minutes at the end. You want to call in? Want to defend what you've said here?
01:07:41: 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.
01:07:47: 877 -753 -3341. Toll -free number. There's a number just for you.
01:07:56: We've done this before. I'm playing your words. You want to defend this? You think you can defend this?
01:08:03: There's a number. Or have me on your program. How about that?
01:08:10: You've got, what, 24 -28 minutes? We'll divide into five -minute segments.
01:08:15: We'll go back and forth. How's that? I'll come on your program. I'll respond to the
01:08:20: Corinthian passage. I'll respond to the 2 John passage. I'll give you my own translations of them if you like.
01:08:27: How about it? How about it, Jeff? You up for it? I think he might be.
01:08:35: I hope so. Okay. So, the point is, the false teachers of 2
01:08:44: John are inside the church. They're claiming to be
01:08:50: Christians. That's why they're called, what? Antichristoi. Antichrist. They claim to be
01:08:58: Christians. Yasir Kai does not claim to be a Christian. He does not claim to be a
01:09:04: Christian teacher. Nobody was presenting him as a Christian teacher. If you don't make these distinctions, you're going to end, again, all apologetic interaction whatsoever.
01:09:16: And if you want to make this distinction, okay, that's an interesting distinction you make.
01:09:25: But are you consistent there? I mean, where do you draw the line as to how much knowledge a
01:09:31: Muslim has to have of Christianity where he goes from being just a follower of a false religion to being a false teacher?
01:09:41: Because every Muslim will deny the deity of Christ. Every single one. So, how can some be false teachers?
01:09:50: Because all Muslims will tell you, we believe in Jesus. We believe that he was a prophet of Allah. He's a
01:09:55: Rasul of Allah. So, every Muslim will say that. And they will teach everybody else that.
01:10:03: They'll teach you that. Does that make them a false teacher? They don't claim to be a Christian. There was a specific context in 2
01:10:13: John. The greeting of them. He's going to talk about my greeting of Yasir Qadhi.
01:10:19: The greeting that is giving Christian greetings to them. This was how you were saying to the world, this individual is a
01:10:24: Christian. I accept him as a Christian teacher. Nothing like that happened. Nothing like that happened.
01:10:32: No? False alarm. Oh, it was somebody else?
01:10:41: Oh, well, I didn't invite anybody else. Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:10:52: Anyway, the greeting was a
01:10:57: Christian greeting. The bringing into the house was supporting an individual in doing missions work in that area.
01:11:04: You've got to allow the text to speak for itself. And that is why you people will not engage me on these texts.
01:11:12: Because you're not allowing the text to speak for itself. And you know it. You know it.
01:11:18: That's why you're not calling. That's why your responses have been so surface level.
01:11:27: There's a reason why we walk through these texts in their original languages, in their historical setting.
01:11:34: But you all do not. That's, as you would put it, a problem.
01:11:40: Now, I believe that James White way more than greeted Yasir Qadhi, correct?
01:11:46: Anyone who enters into an interfaith dialogue with a false teacher on stage does more than just greet him.
01:11:53: They are giving him credibility with the church. That is a huge problem.
01:12:01: Yeah, here's the huge problem. He doesn't claim to be a Christian. It wasn't, quote, in the church.
01:12:08: We weren't trying to give someone credibility in the church. This was not a church meeting.
01:12:14: How many times does this have to be repeated? If you keep repeating that this was a church meeting and we were putting him forward as a
01:12:22: Christian teacher, you're just destroying any credibility you might want to have.
01:12:28: Do you want to have any credibility? Does honesty mean anything here? That's really the question that you need to ask.
01:12:36: We are not to be under the teaching of a false teacher. We are not supposed to be bringing false teaching into the church.
01:12:42: Has nothing to do, zero to do with what took place, nothing. This would be bringing, this would be, you know, the lesbian
01:12:56: Episcopalian bishop of San Francisco, I think it was
01:13:03: San Francisco, that said to take the crosses out of the churches so that the
01:13:09: Muslims, was that in San Francisco or was that over in Europe? I forget where it was. I'd have to look it up. I've actually got it in Evernote.
01:13:16: Maybe I can bring it up and figure out exactly where she was. But anyways, bringing her into a church and allowing her to speak, yeah, here, world's first installed
01:13:31: Muslim. Oh, bishop of Stockholm. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry, San Francisco. Is there that much of a difference?
01:13:38: Bishop of Stockholm has proposed a church or diocese remove all signs of the cross and put down markings showing the direction of Mecca for the benefit of Muslim worshipers.
01:13:45: There is a false teacher. There is a person claiming to be a Christian who is not a Christian who is speaking in the church.
01:13:53: If you bring her in to speak at your church, Jeff, then you're doing what we're talking about, has zippity -dippity -doo -dah to do with what took place in Memphis.
01:14:02: Nothing. And if you can't see that category distinction, then don't ask that we accept your category distinctions if you're not willing to recognize them when they're right in front of you.
01:14:12: Oh, yes, I know I need to go back to there. We are supposed to be rejecting false teachers, separating ourselves, and not greeting them, lest we take part in their evil works.
01:14:26: That's what 2 John, that's talking about bringing false teachers into your home, giving them a foundation, giving them the green that says, this person is a
01:14:35: Christian. You should listen what this person has to say. Nothing to do. Nothing to do with what happened in Memphis.
01:14:43: Zero. Zip. Nada. And until you can refute the exegesis of those texts, every time you repeat it, you're being dishonest.
01:14:54: I just want you to know in the back of your mind, I want you to feel the conviction of error on your part.
01:15:00: You're being dishonest. You're being dishonest. But you just keep repeating yourself. You're gonna have to stop.
01:15:07: You're gonna have to stop or admit you're being dishonest. I think I've made my case.
01:15:12: Now, listen to this. Okay, here we go. This was one of the primary reasons I want you to hear this, because at this point,
01:15:19: I'm listening to this. I'm going, all right, we've refuted every bit of this. We've gone over this.
01:15:27: We have torn this to shreds. Now it's time to find out. Can Jeff Dornick respond?
01:15:35: Can he interact? Can he honestly represent the other side? Here we go. I think
01:15:41: I've made my case pretty clear. I don't care what the other side says about trying to explain away these passages.
01:15:47: These passages apply to this situation. God's word applies. That's it.
01:15:56: That's it. I don't care what the other side says. I don't care.
01:16:02: They've provided meaningful, fair, sound exegesis to these texts.
01:16:07: I don't care. They've used the same hermeneutical methodology that they use to defend everything
01:16:18: I myself believe, deity of Christ, resurrection. I don't care.
01:16:24: We're just not going to deal with it. Believe me, because I'm me. I have the authority to bind you.
01:16:36: What's your authority? What's your authority? I want to know what your authority is, because you seem to think that you don't even have to respond.
01:16:51: That absolutely amazes me. We don't need to worry about the other side. That is the kind of blind, narrow -minded fundamentalism that has destroyed the historical movement that was fundamentalism, which emphasized the fundamentals.
01:17:11: What's called fundamentalism today has nothing to do with that anymore, because that attitude took over.
01:17:18: Don't listen to anybody else. Let's get our safe spaces. Let's just get into our little communes here.
01:17:26: Let's separate from everybody else. That dies, and when it dies, it's ugly.
01:17:36: It stinks. Many church leaders live in their own little bubble, completely unaware of what is going on in the world.
01:17:42: They don't understand what the false teachers are actually saying. They don't understand the threats to the church.
01:17:50: That came 30 seconds after what he just said, and he can't sense the contradiction?
01:18:00: Wow. He's the one in the bubble. They don't understand the threats, and you say,
01:18:08: I'm wrong for having learned something from Yasir Qadhi, right? I suggest,
01:18:16: Jeff, you're the one in the bubble. You're the one in the bubble. No. This is so unbiblical.
01:18:24: We should be able to deal with the issues without dealing with personality. We should be able to be dealing with these issues and wrestling with these theological, serious, serious issues without making personal attacks.
01:18:37: Have you listened to the first three programs that Brandon House did back in May, Jeff?
01:18:44: Have you listened as Brandon House had people on his program condemning me as a heretic and saying
01:18:50: I was going to hell? Have you listened to any of that? Have you listened to Osama Daqdaq?
01:18:57: Osama Daqdaq doesn't know how to talk without doing personal attacks. Hello? What color is the sky in your world?
01:19:09: Truly makes me wonder. Now, it's real simple.
01:19:14: There's another program coming up next week. Maybe. I don't know. Things could change,
01:19:20: I suppose. But if this is your foundational stuff, you've provided nothing.
01:19:30: Zero. What are you going to build on? Now, 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.
01:19:43: I just went through your program. I didn't play everything you said, but I played a good portion of it, and I refuted it.
01:19:55: I demonstrated contradiction and error and falsehood and category issues and illogical statements.
01:20:04: You want to defend it? I'm going to go on for a little while, and I'm going to talk a little bit about the
01:20:11: Lollards. If you want to call in, then
01:20:17: I'll finish that up and we will take your call. 877 -753 -3341.
01:20:26: You have a national platform now, and you've said you're going to be calling me out.
01:20:32: Who's calling who out? Hiding behind a microphone and misrepresenting somebody is not calling them out.
01:20:40: I'm giving you the opportunity. 877 -753 -3341.
01:20:46: Give us a call. Or if you can't do it right now, why don't you call that number later on and tell us when you can.
01:20:56: Or when I can come on your program, and I will come on your program, and we can talk about, let's talk about those two scriptural passages, shall we?
01:21:07: Let's go deep into the Word, which said that that's what you say you want to do. Let's do it.
01:21:13: I'm ready. How about you? That's the question. All right. So there's that.
01:21:22: I will keep a close eye. I don't have the phones up, so you'll have to let me know.
01:21:28: Um, we sort of stopped at a bad place in our review of the
01:21:34: Reformation, once we was lost together. And we're not going to be able to do too much today, because I would like to get home at some time today.
01:21:49: Yeah, given that I've just got a nice Windows 10 logo, or is that 7?
01:21:54: I don't know what it is. It's Windows. I don't do Windows. We were talking about Wycliffe, and we were talking about what happened to him.
01:22:07: I pointed out that he died December 31st, 1384.
01:22:14: So on New Year's Eve, you might want to actually say a word of thanks for the great ministry of John Wycliffe, so long ago.
01:22:30: He died officially orthodox, in the sense that he had not been condemned.
01:22:37: But he was condemned 31 years later at the Council of Constance. Keep that. Council of Constance, very important council.
01:22:45: Not only is it the council that heals the schism and the papacy, and hence, for a while, sort of inaugurates a brief period of conciliarism.
01:22:56: The idea that councils are the ultimate authority in the church, rather than the papacy. That doesn't last long.
01:23:02: But the papacy was dependent upon the Council of Constance to be healed. The papacy could not heal itself. That was a reality.
01:23:08: But that's the same council that, of course, burns Jan Hus. And so, in burning
01:23:13: Jan Hus, they recognize the very close relationship that existed in teaching between, and obviously, even
01:23:21: Hus acknowledged the influence of Wycliffe upon his own thought. So he was condemned 31 years later at the
01:23:29: Council of Constance. And in somewhere around 1427, 1428, his bones were exhumed from, quote, holy ground, burned ashes, and scattered in the ground.
01:23:50: Why would anybody dig somebody's body up to burn them?
01:23:56: It seems like such spite to us. But it wasn't the first time it had happened.
01:24:01: It wouldn't be the last. And it is interesting that if you fast forward 120 odd years,
01:24:12: Charles V is going to stand in Castle Church in Wittenberg staring at Martin Luther's tomb, who has just died only the year before.
01:24:21: And he is going to be encouraged to dig Martin Luther up and to burn his bones in the same way, to desecrate the resting place of that body as a demonstration of the heresy of this person.
01:24:42: Charles would not do so, which is why Luther is still there as far as his remains are concerned.
01:24:49: But he was encouraged to do so. Now, after Wycliffe, he died of natural causes, and so he had followers.
01:25:04: And so the Lawlards were an English movement of men and women that arose out of Wycliffe's teachings.
01:25:14: Lawlardry literally means babbler. They were called babblers. And they made crude literal translations of the
01:25:22: Latin Bible into English. Remember, Wycliffe had translated at least most of the portions of the
01:25:31: Vulgate into English. And this was strongly resisted by the
01:25:37: Church. English was considered a vulgar language. Part of the argument was that the Word of God is better than that.
01:25:44: The Word of God deserves a better mechanism of communication than the vulgar
01:25:49: English language, let alone the fact that why would you do that? Why would you give peasants access to the
01:25:56: Word of God? It's dangerous. They condemned
01:26:07: Wycliffe at that council. The Church moved to suppress
01:26:13: Lawlardry and burned Lawlard books as well as Wycliffe's translations and anything that they had written.
01:26:22: And so they, and this is beautiful. This really is beautiful. They began an oral tradition by memorizing sections of the
01:26:32: Bible. And so what they would do and I want you to think about this.
01:26:38: We have, I have, you know, this is that beautiful Bible that the brother sent me,
01:26:48: New American Standard. And, you know, with the yap and there's nothing like a smell of a leather
01:26:57: Bible. And I've got piles of Bibles sitting over here. We take it so for granted.
01:27:06: We have had access our entire lives to the entirety of Scripture.
01:27:13: There are many people in the sound of my voice watching this, listening to this. You've possessed the
01:27:19: Bible your entire life. There's portions of the Bible you've never read, never read it. But we think the
01:27:28: Lawlards and they would gather together and they would memorize a book of the
01:27:37: Bible and they would take the name of that book of the
01:27:44: Bible that they would memorize. And so they would meet in secret. And so the really smart guy named
01:27:52: Salter, or maybe there was just a Psalm 119. I don't know.
01:27:57: That's long enough. Would get up and would recite for the others his part of the
01:28:07: Word of God. Nahum would get up and give his a few verses from there.
01:28:16: I've often said I'd probably be third John, you know. But they loved the
01:28:24: Word so much that they would memorize it. And they were risking their lives.
01:28:32: We're not risking our lives to memorize Scripture today. People in North Korea are.
01:28:39: But we don't memorize. We don't risk our lives to memorize Scripture. The Lawlards did. And what would it be like to go to a meeting like that?
01:28:57: Where people are standing up and they're giving a portion of the Word of God that they themselves have memorized.
01:29:04: Can you think of anybody whose mind would be wandering to other things?
01:29:10: To what they're going to have to do for work tomorrow? To what's going on on Facebook? They are listening with rapt attention as each one of their brothers and sisters gives to them the
01:29:26: Word of God. And these are simple people. These aren't highfalutin scholars.
01:29:31: They're simple people. What a beautiful thing it was. And how convicting, given our, you know,
01:29:40: I've got multiple translations in multiple languages on my iPhone. Just simply having it doesn't mean we're going to love it and actually go to it.
01:29:56: The Lawlards became strongly anti -papal. And what's interesting is what we can tell from the few of their writings that have survived is they identified the
01:30:10: Pope as the Antichrist. They saw him as opposing the
01:30:16: Christian movement. Of course, they're persecuted people. But when you see
01:30:24: Luther moving to that point, and I remember Luther had two Antichrists. He had the spiritual
01:30:30: Antichrist, which was the Pope, the physical Antichrist, which were the Muslims, the
01:30:36: Turks that were attacking Vienna. But when we see, by 1519,
01:30:46: Luther being willing to identify the papacy as a whole, even though he's still writing to the Pope and differentiating between the individual and the office, it's pretty quick that Luther is identifying the
01:31:02: Pope as the Antichrist. And what's interesting is it is right in that time period that he's challenged by Johann Eck at the
01:31:11: Leipzig Disputation that he's a Hussite. And we know that's the first time that Luther goes and reads
01:31:19: Jan Hus. Did he get that mediated to him through Hus back to the
01:31:27: Lawlards? I don't know. It's possible though. It's possible. But those
01:31:35: Lawlards might run into them someday in heaven and find out what it was like to have that kind of a level of love for the
01:31:45: Word of God. So, Brother Pierce, I haven't heard, sometimes
01:31:51: I can hear the ringing of the phone in here. No, no ringing in the phone.
01:31:57: Zip, zero, nada. Zip, zero, nada. Well, that's a shame.
01:32:03: I'm sure that Mr. Dornick has stuff that he's doing. Yeah, we did have a mic on so we know that it works.
01:32:13: So, Mr. Dornick, why don't you get in touch with us and let us know when you'd like to be on or when
01:32:24: I can come on your program. Just let us know, 877 -753 -3341.
01:32:31: Because the fact of the matter is, Mr. Dornick, one of us handles the Word of God consistently across an entire spectrum of controversial issues, and one of us does not.
01:32:46: And that's all there is to it. And I think you know that in your heart of hearts. And my hope is that you will come to understand that you're on the wrong road here.
01:33:00: And if you think that you're going to make a name for yourself by, quote -unquote, calling me out, it's going to end in heartache for you.
01:33:10: Because the people that you're partnering with, well, it's not going to go well.
01:33:22: I don't want to see that for you or anybody else. So maybe that interaction would help you to come see that.
01:33:32: I don't know. I don't know. Be it as it may, I'm going to head home. And while we were here, my luggage texted me.
01:33:41: It's in Phoenix now. So obviously, it took the next flight from Dallas. And so I actually probably need to get home lest they deliver today.
01:33:49: My luggage might beat me home, which would not be a good thing when you think about it. So you don't bother
01:33:59: Rich with this. My device is called LugLock. It's available on Amazon.
01:34:05: It works great. You charge it up. You put it in your luggage. And when you land, normally, as you're taxiing, you get a text on your phone that says,
01:34:14: Hi, I'm your luggage. I'm now in Phoenix. And that makes you feel good. I didn't happen today because my luggage didn't take my flight.
01:34:21: But I knew. That was the nice thing. That was the cool thing about it. So don't bother Rich. I was going to say, too, we had a successful live stream today.
01:34:30: We have not saved the file yet. We had no hiccups at all. The file is working.
01:34:37: Everything's humming. We rolled back to the previous version, and it's good. I'm thankful that that's the case.
01:34:45: And when it's all done and saved, I'll join you in your joy. But I've seen that look through the window like, so we'll see.
01:34:57: We'll see. We'll see. All right. Lord willing, we will be back sometime this week.
01:35:04: And we'll continue on with our Reformation studies and the whole nine yards.