Calvinism v Arminianism, Divine Election v Human Responsibility - GotQuestions.org Podcast Episode 6

Welcome to the got questions podcast on the show today.

We're going to be covering a Theological issue that in our 20 -year history.

We've probably been asked more than any other theological issue.

It's Calvinism versus Arminianism or God's sovereignty versus humanity's free

will or divine election versus Human responsibility however, you want to call it

and today I've got with us a good friend of mine.

I'm dr. Christopher Cohn.

And he is the only person I know who has three doctorate degrees.

So what better person to have on the show to help us finally put this issue to rest?

I'm kidding by the way, but I'm dr.

Dr.

Dr. Cohn.

Um, thank you for coming on the show today.

Shea it's an absolute privilege to to to be here with you so thankful for your ministry for all that you

do and We can at least advance the question.

But we won't settle the issue, of course, of course, so.

You told me about a book you've written recently, so the the sofa rule and we'll include a link

to this and The comments feel on YouTube and also on our podcast page.

But tell me tell our audience some how you've wrestled with this issue and the conclusions

that you've come to.

Well, of course it as in many theological debates or Or

controversies.

There's typically two sides right two different views and they're opposing and

It creates, you know, it can actually create animosity and it can cause people to go in some really

different directions and.

As.

As I have tried to Seek to find answers Biblically

just one of the reasons I'm so thankful for got questions Because of that commitment to looking at

things through that biblical lens As I've sought to do that what I've what

I've realized is that the the two sides and this is true in many Theological

controversies and even socio -political controversies that many of these debates and disagreements

Are are so polarized and when you look at the biblical perspective generally, the biblical

approach is door number three and.

So as I as I was doing more exegesis and working in the text, I'm realizing, you know, there's some problems

with with this particular Side of the argument over here and then I can see on the other side.

Well, there's problems here.

It doesn't align with what the scriptures are saying and.

And.

I felt like in looking at this issue over time the Bible is really clear and

It it makes statements that when we acknowledge that God

can Deal with tensions and things that are maybe apparent conflicts

That he can do that and and when we can be okay with that.

Then then I think things resolve pretty well.

So I I see it door number three in that.

So in the study of this issue where do you find yourself

falling on the spectrum between Calvinism and Arminianism on these various issues.

And do you find that no matter where you land.

People on both sides issue tend to be dissatisfied with the conclusions you come to.

It's a great question Shay.

And and You might expect an answer like this on one side you have read.

On the other side you have blue and You know somewhere in the middle in that spectrum, you know, we all want to be balanced.

So we'd want to be maybe purple in that in that discussion.

Okay?

But this question is really more like Do you like the color blue

or do you like asparagus?

Right.

Or.

You know, the idea is it's not two colors.

It's not a spectrum of colors where you just kind of pick.

It's two totally different concepts that have historically

set themselves against one another.

And.

Presented themselves as different colors on a spectrum.

But when you dig into them, they're really they're really dealing with issues that are unrelated.

And I think I think because of that the biblical approach isn't.

We have point A and point Z and the Bible is somewhere in here.

It's it's it's more like.

You have a philosophical discussion here.

That's undergirding Calvinism and you have another separate philosophical discussion here.

That's undergirding Arminianism and Arminian thinking and the biblical approach is different than

both.

It's not in the middle.

So it's this different than what they're both doing and so.

Generally.

Some would consider themselves for example a four -point Calvin's Calvinist one who would hold to four points of Calvinism.

And so they would say they're kind of a moderate Calvinism.

The problem with that is the points of Calvinism are logically written in such a way that if you

accept one You have to accept all five.

It's illogical inconsistent to do anything other.

So I would personally reject all five points of Calvinism as written and by the way,

so would John Calvin these are written by his followers later who are

responding to the remonstrance and Calvin in his writings isn't a five -point Calvinist.

So there's that inconsistency idea.

Arminian argument is is working from a different perspective.

Of course, I would I would reject kind of all five of those as well and so I would see

these not as within a spectrum as much as.

They're making affirmations of how God is working and the Bible is making a different affirmation about how

God is working.

And I think we kind of have to choose the Calvinistic God the Arminian God or the biblical God.

Because these are kind of three different entities if you get right down to it and most don't want to think of it in those.

Terms.

Well for sure most of the questions we receive are How can you

reconcile these two?

Doctrines that appear to be irreconcilable or How do you if you believe

this?

Well, then clearly you also believe this and so.

Expect that just because you I got it got questions.

We land closer to Calvinism than we do to Arminianism.

And I'm fully aware like you said that the position we take may not be perfectly logical.

But it's our our best attempt at trying to reconcile What scripture says and understand what

scripture says about how God is sovereign in election and yet?

We are also responsible to believe so it's a frustrating place to be.

People say we have our feet planted firmly in midair.

Why don't we just take a stronger stance is because I see flaws in both full Calvinism and full Arminianism as

you said so trying to come to a biblically based Compromise or even just a

here's what the Bible says about these issues Doesn't seem to satisfy anyone.

So I'm curious with you.

I know you wrote an entire book on this but Can you summarize the sofa rule for our listeners?

Sure, sure.

Well, first of all Shay what you just said, I think absolutely Epitomizes the

biblical approach, you know, you you talked about God's sovereignty in election and human

responsibility.

That and that's that's it.

You find both of those so clearly communicated in Scripture.

Let's just take Ephesians 1 and 2 for example.

Ephesians 1 makes it very clear that God chose and Called that he did that work.

And it's inarguable.

He's talking about individuals there.

We can't get away from it.

But then in in Ephesians chapter 2, he makes it so clear that this salvation

is by grace.

So it's a gift.

But through faith and faith is the act of me believing in him

so I am responsible to believe in him and He exercises his grace through

that so he is he he is a hundred percent sovereign I'm a hundred percent responsible

and Calvinism is is arguing that because he's a hundred percent Sovereign your

responsibility is kind of irrelevant.

It doesn't matter what you do or don't do you're you're elected and he's gonna see that all.

That through it tries to have a high view of God, which I appreciate but it ends up not having quite a high enough view.

Because it doesn't recognize that he can set up these two things and they they are not

in conflict in the Armenian approach.

The desire is to protect human choice and in order to do that Instead of

recognizing the Bible presents both ideas.

It reduces God's sovereignty and in that, you know, the full Calvinist approach full Armenian approach are not

biblically Compatible.

So in the sofa rule, all I'm trying to do is Is look at

biblical instances where God is interacting with humanity and the first half of the

book is focused on just episode biblical episode after biblical episode where God is working

with humanity and he makes it clear that he is sovereign and That humanity has has responsibility

with Pharaoh, for example.

Before all that starts God tells Moses.

I'm going to harden Pharaoh's heart.

God actively is going to do that to Pharaoh and then as we see it play out

ten times you have Pharaoh hardened his own heart and then five times his heart is hardened in the

passive sense.

So you see both Pharaoh's held accountable for his heart being hardened.

He's judged for that.

But at the same time God is pre -announcing.

So in the sofa rule, I'm trying to lay out in the first half of it here the biblical instances forget theology just look at

what the Bible says and then in the second half we're trying to unpack it and look at what are the implications

and the concept of the sofa rule is That you know, so we had we had a we had a sofa

Okay, we so my family had a had a sofa and I remember distinctly, you know My two lovely young daughters were

eating on this the sofa and you know spilling crumbs and all this and so we made a rule.

For a little while you can't eat on the sofa.

But but then.

Cat my wife and I we'd eat on the sofa and our daughters one day wondered Well,

how is it that you have a rule that you can you can violate this rule?

But but we can't and it kind of I made these these connections that

God has all these rules in place for us.

We're not sovereign.

We don't own the sofa.

We can't make the rules.

So we have to submit to his to the owner's system.

But God has the freedom to do that.

It's his sofa he made it so he can do whatever he wants to right and and so.

When he is sovereign and in control of all things he can set the rules to the game if he wants to give us

Responsibility hold us accountable.

He absolutely has the right to do that.

So that's kind of the idea of the the sofa rule.

Which is a goofy name for a book.

No, it totally makes sense and I enjoyed the that illustration as I I read the book and it's um, it's

something I've It's fascinating for me to think about something.

I really enjoy Thinking about trying to figure out but one of the struggles I've found

Is that while many Christians are willing to in a sense embrace the mystery when it comes to the Trinity they

will admit I'm never going to be able to perfectly understand the Trinity or The humanity

and deity of Christ the hypostatic Union.

They'll admit I don't fully understand how that works so they willing to embrace a certain amount of mystery on

those two issues, but when it comes to this one for whatever reason people Want to figure it

out.

And once they think they figure it out.

They tend to become very Dogmatic.

So why do you think it is that.

I mean I understand why this issue is so fascinating because it's it's very important to.

But why are so many people so unwilling to embrace the fact that maybe this is something

we cannot perfectly or fully understand.

So rather than trying to do that why don't we just focus on what the Bible says and what our responsibility is which is to

share the gospel with Every human being on the planet.

It's a great question.

I think part of our Functioning in the image of God is is is embracing and

loving learning about him, right?

It's a wonderful thing.

And Insofar as God has revealed himself. We can know him.

It's he's not a mystery.

He's unveiled a lot about himself and we can know with great confidence who he is in all that he's

revealed.

At the same time there's a lot about him that he has not revealed and.

You know.

Isaiah tells us that he is so far above us right as the heavens are from the earth.

He's so far above us.

And so he reveals to us what he wants us to know and he reveals it clearly in his word.

But then there's much that we can't understand because he's just beyond us and so.

It's good for us to investigate and to pursue and to look for answers.

But when he has not revealed those especially in Scripture those answers about himself We have

to say.

I.

Trust you.

There are certain things that I'm not going to be able to be dogmatic about and if if he doesn't reveal

it There's no other source for me to go to to arrive at that conclusion so we have to

learn how to humbly say I don't know not because we haven't studied or examined but

because He hasn't shared that part of himself with us.

And so I think it's in our good intention of trying to pursue truth.

We simply go too far by going beyond what is written.

Like Paul says in first Corinthians 4.

He says I urge you to not to exceed what is written.

Because that makes you arrogant against each other.

We come up with these systems theological systems and ideas out of nothing out of thin air and

Then we argue against people because they disagree.

Well, it creates strife instead we should be saying Scripture tells us this it takes us this far and

Beyond that, you know in the physical realm we have science and we can do all this fun investigation and that's wonderful but in the

realm of God's character in his identity, we have no means to Arrive at

those conclusions.

So we must simply trust him and not go beyond what's written.

So I I think it's a good thing That we just try to go too far with sometimes.

Does that make sense?

It totally does and that's.

That's been my experience in trying to help people to think through these issues and it's at some point

the answers has to be you know, you need to reach a point and Humbly admit to

yourself and to God that I'm never going to perfectly understand everything about you be willing to accept that.

Trusting everything the Bible does clearly say about God, but be willing to accept, you know

He's infinite.

I'm finite.

I'm Therefore never going to be able to perfectly understand everything about him so getting to arriving to the point

that you understand and recognize and accept that to me is a important

aspect of spiritual growth that Does struggle to get to and I'm not saying I'm entirely there, but

I'm always trying to figure things out.

But um, let me ask you a couple of common questions frequently asked questions We get that are closely

related to this is to see how you approach those because based on reading your book I think I know how you're gonna get

there, but I'm just very curious for your insight.

How would you respond to someone who struggles with well if God?

Elects chooses who's going to be saved.

How can I know if I'm one of the elect or what if I'm not one of the elect therefore I'm never

gonna be able to believe to begin with how do you.

How would you respond to someone with that sort of mindset.

That's a that's a magnificent question and I think that's at the heart of the issue.

The Arminian perspective is trying to protect the individual from from having a

sovereign ogre making that choice for them and the Calvinist is trying to respect that God is sovereign and

Doesn't much care about humanity's choice.

Well, we see that election and predestination are ideas revealed in Scripture to

demonstrate God's grace, you know Paul says in in Romans

12.

Verse 1 is he's just finished this whole discussion.

Especially chapters 9 10 and 11 where he did talk about election and predestination.

And he says I urge you based on the mercies of God.

So this idea of election and predestination there there are elements of God's mercy his love his

compassion his grace.

They're wonderful things.

And so.

They are not revealed to us To show us a portrait of

a God who's wrathful now God is wrathful and there he's there's jealousy and there's justice and

all those things but I'm saying in those contexts when these doctrines are revealed the whole point of

These explanations being given are to show us how incredibly gracious and merciful God is.

So the idea of election is not a bad thing.

It's not a it's not a boy.

I sure hope you have it because if you don't have election, I'm wasting my time.

You know some who hold to this idea by the way.

We'll say that in your counseling when you're counseling someone if you're counseling an unbeliever.

You can't even tell them that Jesus died for them because in this in this particular system.

The third point of Calvinism is that Jesus only died for the elect and if you're not

the elect He didn't die for you.

So I can't really proclaim the good news that Jesus died for you.

Well, that doesn't align with Scripture at all in any way, so.

So.

Predestination election are revealed to us as a means of showing us God's grace and mercy.

Now I have no idea.

I.

Have nothing to say whether or not I was predestined or elected except Scripture.

If I have believed in him I know I was predestined and elected and all that, right?

And and this is one of the challenges we make the recipe for salvation.

So complex we're in the gospel of John.

It's believe the believing one has eternal life.

If you believed in Christ you have eternal life.

Which means reverse -engineer that you were predestined before the foundation of the earth.

This is incredible, right?

So rather than having a person wonder about that and giving him a recipe for how to be saved.

That's so complex.

They don't know if they can ever do it.

Asking them do you believe in this Jesus Christ who isn't what he did for you.

You put your trust in.

Well.

Yes, well then boom you're you're elect.

Well, what if I wasn't then.

Maybe I can't really believe.

Do you believe.

Yes.

Well, then you were.

Yeah, I it seems like a really simple thing.

We're trying to focus on the mysterious part that we can't touch you.

We can't touch taste or feel when what he tells us to interact with this.

No, this is true.

Believe in me and you have all of this.

Yeah, no.

And when we get that question, it's trying to point people back to Scripture.

Look nowhere in Scripture.

Does anyone express any concern about whether they are one of the elect?

Nowhere in Scripture does it say.

That is something we need to be worried about.

No.

Our our responsibility is to receive Jesus Christ the Savior to believe in him.

To trust in him alone is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, so.

This struggle with questioning whether One is elect is completely

foreign to Scripture.

So I Love how you explain that question number two if I guess what

the next one is because it's probably one of the most important factors in the Calvinism versus Arminian

debate and that's a eternal security.

So if you're Calvinist you go with perseverance of the Saints that Anyone who

is elect will persevere to the end they will never lose faith deny that Christ anything like that They will persevere to

the end.

Arminianism there's Multiple variations.

There are some who believe that salvation can be lost and regained multiple times.

There are medians who believe in one saved always save so with.

The.

Biblical perspective.

How do you approach the eternal security issue and why this is so important is because when people

doubt Both whether they are saved and whether they always will be.

It creates all sorts of problems.

Theologically personally practically spiritually and because people to doubt the love of God when they think oh if I

by sin if I mess up My salvation is gone, and I don't know if I can get it back.

So how do you approach the eternal security issue?

I.

Love to start with the words of Jesus just really simple course in John 3 and John 6.

Especially looking at John 6 47, for example, Jesus says The

Believing One and he uses that participle the Believing One.

It doesn't show up like that in English, but it's the Believing One has

present tense.

Eternal life that's the formula and he explained that to Nicodemus back in John 3.

Laying it out that the again the the participle the Believing One.

Right has eternal life that in John 3 16.

So when you look at these passages together and then all of what he is explaining to Nicodemus about you know.

You must be born again.

Some people say you must be born again.

Misunderstanding that right, but you must be born again.

There's this renewal that happens and I would say it like this.

When you believe if you are a Believing One at 8 o 'clock in the morning, you become a Believing One.

You've been born again.

You have this new birth.

You have this new life.

Now a person can commit suicide.

Right a person can end their life, but did their committing suicide?

Unborn them is there anything they could do to be unborn?

No, they can they can end their life, but they can't be unborn when we're born again.

We are born again the moment we become a Believing One.

So at 8 o 'clock in the morning I become a Believing One.

Jesus says in John 6 47 I have at 8 o 'clock in the morning.

Eternal life life that by definition cannot end and so at 9 o 'clock in the morning

in my immaturity I commit some awful sin and and Somebody says well, you must have

lost salvation because you committed this mortal sin.

Well, what did Jesus say you were a Believing One at 8 o 'clock in the morning?

You have eternal life at 8 o 'clock in the morning.

That means that at 9 o 'clock in the morning.

You still have eternal life now you need to grow because you're acting like an infant right and we've got a discipline process

but you are in Christ and.

And it's just that simple in the Calvinistic system.

It's trying to make it very complex.

We we have to have these believers being saved, but it has to be

some additional ongoing continuous work of God whereas in the Arminian system if

God wasn't sovereign in a person's being saved then God isn't sovereign in a person's keeping that salvation.

So a person can lose it where Jesus approached John 6 47.

John 3 16.

So crystal clear and then John writes at the end of his gospel 2030

31.

He writes the whole purpose in his writing.

This gospel is so that you will believe in his name and have life.

And then John writes later in 1st John.

He writes this idea that that you can know you have eternal life.

So we're we're supposed to be able to have certainty and.

The simplicity of what Jesus says kind of just sweeps away all the theological arguments, I think.

That's excellent, I love the unborn Analogy that nothing we can do it can cause us to

be unborn either physically.

In the same truth applies Spiritually that once we're born again once we're born from above once we

are the new creation in Christ Nothing we can do can undo that so that it's a powerful reminder and I think a good

Biblical perspective on how we should be approaching the loss of salvation question, so

dr. Cohen, thank you for Helping us think through these issues a little bit.

I know you've got In addition to this book and some other books.

Um, what are some of the things that are keeping you busy busy at these days?

Well, I I'm very grateful for the opportunity to serve with Agathon edu and

versity, Colorado Biblical University.

I'm just excited about what God is doing there.

I'm excited about what God is doing.

We've got questions.

And really thankful for the ministry going on there and being able to Be connected in some way

which I won't.

I Get to write.

I love to write and I'm so thankful for the opportunities to write with God questions.

So that's keeping me busy as well.

So we certainly need a lot of prayer as we're trying to build these educational Institutions and

and and just be faithful with all the stewardship's that God has provided.

And so thank you for sharing that and We will include a link to your both the book and then some whatever other

resources you like for our listener to have access to.

Thank you for being on the show and I look forward to having on again sometime.

So I hope this conversation has been encouraging to you.

Got questions.

Bible as answers.