September 9, 2020 Show with Roger Salter on “A Choice of Pastors: Luther or N. T. Wright?”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this ninth day of September, 2020, and I always love having back as a returning guest on this program somebody who has truly become one of my very favorite guests, and also, it seems, a favorite guest of many in my audience, and his name is

Roger Salter. He is rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and today we are going to be addressing a very important theme, a choice of pastors,

Martin Luther or N .T. Wright. An Anglican rector warns Christ Church about a very popular and very heretical

Anglican scholar. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Roger Salter.

It's a genuine privilege to be with you, Chris, a great joy. I am glad that you share my joy in having you back on, and I want to make it clear to our listeners this topic today was my decision, my choice, because of the fact that I believe

N .T. Wright has wrought havoc in the body of Christ, perhaps even more specifically or especially in some of the circles that I have traveled in theologically.

I think that Reformed people had been most susceptible to N .T.

Wright for some reason, and has led them into embracing the new perspective on Paul, which

I and a multitude of Reformed scholars, theologians, and pastors

I know share my opinion with me that that is a dangerous and heretical concept, the new perspective on Paul, and other things that N .T.

Wright has popularized. But that is the reason why we are discussing this today, and my guest did not voluntarily choose this topic, but I chose it for him, and he agreed.

But before we go into this subject at hand, Roger, as we always do, especially for the sake of my listeners who have not yet heard you on this show, or they're not familiar with your blog,

Living Oracles, tell our listeners about St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

Well, we're a small group of folk, and we hope to be loyal to the

Anglican heritage, which of course was established for us in the 16th century

English Reformation, so we're very much wedded to the constitutional documents of our communion, the 1662 prayer book, which doesn't rule out other forms of liturgy, but as long as they're consistent with 1662, and of course we very much adhere to the

Reformational theology of the 39 Articles. So we feel that as Anglicans, we have...

Are you there, Roger? There's so much... You cut out for some reason, I don't know if you have a call coming in or something, but you went blank.

I can't see anything, Chris. Okay, well, if you could just continue. Okay. But I feel in many ways,

Anglicanism is not distinct, it's just the way it's assembled on the elements of the

Reformation, so we very much belong to the Reformed family of churches on the continent and elsewhere, and the real motive behind my promoting

Anglicanism is not for the sake of Anglicanism, but to allow other churches to know that with other good

Protestant Reformed churches, we hold a lot in common. Yes, and that computer noise just blotted out what you said, you hold a lot in common with other

Reformed churches is what you were saying. That's right, and I want people to realize that, that because we're

Anglicans, they don't have to be afraid of it, because it's a very mixed denomination, all sorts of churchmanships.

I believe that true Anglicanism is the Reformational Anglicanism, and I want to advocate that because so many

Anglicans don't recognize it, so many Anglicans deliberately refuse to concede that we're

Reformed, but we are, and that's where we stand, and that's our legitimate approach to what we are.

We have so much in common with every other Reformed Christian and congregation.

I remember once when I was invited to a Presbyterian gathering, and the host said, ah, hear

Roger and Maureen, they're Anglicans, and it was almost as if all the Presbyterians took a step or two back, because here in the

South, people think, oh, Anglicanism, the next step is Rome. It's not the case at all.

Well, it's certainly not the case with your wing of the Anglican church, those that are truly committed to the 39 articles of religion, and not just using it to give lip service to the historicity of the

Anglican church, you know, just on paper, if you will.

By the way, folks, for those of you unfamiliar with the 39 articles of religion, I as a Reformed Baptist can give a hearty amen to nearly every single thing included in those 39 articles.

The only difference I would have with Roger, my guest, is over the issues of paedo -baptism or infant baptism, and also areas involving a church government, but in actuality right now,

St. Matthew's is very much like a Reformed Baptist church in its government, since it is an independent and autonomous church at this point.

And we share our building with Reformed Baptists. That's right. And I also, and I know that I've said this ad nauseam infinitum on this program, but I can't help but say with a sly smile on my face that I even agree with the 39 articles article on baptism, because it says that we should not forbid children to receive baptism.

It says nothing about infants. And if a child repents and believes in the name of Christ, I would strongly urge him to be baptized.

That is, and you know, Spurgeon said there was only half a sentence that he couldn't agree with in our creed, so that's pretty close.

And by the way, I'm going to give our email address right away if any of our listeners would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are somebody who is very enamored with N .T.

Wright and you want to criticize something our guest is saying and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity, we will let you slide.

We will let you remain anonymous. You might be even in a church that adores

N .T. Wright and your book room, your library, your bookstore is filled with his writings, his published works.

You've had him speak at your own congregation from your own pulpit. But you are starting to have questions about his orthodoxy, his biblical soundness, and perhaps you're going against the grain of your pastors and your congregation, or perhaps you're a pastor and you're going against the grains of your fellow elders or your denomination on this issue.

We would understand that you would want to remain anonymous, but if it's just a theological, doctrinal question, then please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, first of all, I think it would be wise for you to give a summary explanation of who exactly

N .T. Wright is. Well, I'll go back a little bit beyond N .T.

Wright, Chris, because when I was living in Wiltshire in England in the early 1980s,

I went to a series of lectures given by Dr. Leslie Holden, and that was where I got the first hint that there was a new perspective.

I'd never really been familiar with it in parish life. It's something you encounter more in informed theological circles and colleges and seminaries.

So I was a little bit baffled about it, and I went away thinking about some of his assertions, feeling very uneasy about them.

But I always feel that you have to confront doubts head on, that if there's something that's been asserted theologically and it seems worthwhile investigating it thoroughly, you should.

We shouldn't be craven about these issues. Truth will justify itself. Then, of course,

I encountered James Dunn, who was of the same persuasion, and again, it caused me a great deal of unease.

But I don't think I really understood what they were asserting in full.

And then, of course, I began to read N .T. Wright, just essays, not his heavy volumes that he's written.

And again, I felt distinctly uncomfortable. Now, that's only a subjective reaction.

It doesn't prove anything. But I do feel that in a way, you know,

John in his first letter speaks of the fact that the people to whom he was writing didn't need to be taught because they had an anointing, and the anointing of the

Spirit of God and Christ indwelling within them. And I think sometimes you get this intuitive warning about something from the

Spirit of God, not to be too subjective, but it makes you think, well, I'll examine it.

I don't have to be frightened of it. But, you know, I thought I would take up some of Wright's writings and see what he did affirm.

The more I read it, the more uncomfortable I was. I wasn't theologically equipped,

I think, to in any way refute him or even describe his divergent theology, but that came later as I realized that it was a pastoral concern, not just academic, because everybody in academics, in a

Christian sense, has to have the heart of a pastor. You are feeding the Church of God with the truth that you discover and enunciate.

So, ultimately, it's a pastoral issue for me and a very serious one. And you get very concerned

Christians coming to you and saying, well, what do you make of M .T. Wright? Because it's a personal issue as to how you get right with God and know it.

Justification is a very personal and penetrating doctrine. Excuse me, Chris. I've got a bit of a cough.

I'm going to repeat our email address while you cough. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And one thing that we should make clear, especially since we are having a discussion from an

Anglican point of view, that M .T. Wright would not be someone that would be categorized as a liberal, of which there is an abundance in Anglicanism and Episcopalianism.

There are many that are total and complete apostates who deny the pillars of the faith, who deny the

Trinity, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth of Christ, the sinless life of Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, I believe

I may have said this, but the deity of Christ. There are even religious scholars and those who have been ordained in academia who deny these things, and M .T.

Wright would not be one that denies at least the things that I listed.

In fact, from what I can recall, before it became more well known what he believed about the

New Perspective, and we will get into exactly what that is momentarily, but from what

I understand, your average run -of -the -mill evangelical churches were using videos and audio recordings and perhaps even other kinds of visual aids in teaching people the basics of the faith in their congregations.

Is that not true, that he at least at one time enjoyed some kind of a popularity amongst mainstream evangelicals?

I believe so, Chris. I mean, we've been off the English scene for 24 to 26 years, so I don't have a close monitoring of what's going on in England, but I believe that is the case, and I think he's gained credibility because he's very strong and very accurate on Christian origins.

Yes, in fact, many of our listeners may be familiar with him, even if they don't immediately recognize his name.

You will frequently see on secular television networks during especially

Christmas and Easter, you will see these documentaries about the life of Christ, and these documentaries that are run or aired and created by the

History Channel and National Geographic and many of these other major secular networks, they will typically feature predominantly, although not exclusively perhaps, liberal apostates who are scholars in the area of Christian history and theology.

They will very often be agnostics and atheists themselves, but you wouldn't necessarily recognize that from what they are saying, because some of these folks, like John Dominick Crossan and Bart Ehrman, believe in the historicity of Christ.

They believe that he actually lived, that he's not a figment of legend and folklore and myth, so when they give lectures on television about the archaeology of the first century, about the history of Christ, something of his background, his lineage, ancestry, and so on, all of the cultural things that were going on in the time, they will very often be accurate, and people that I know have mistaken people like Bart Ehrman, for instance, who is an agnostic, they've mistaken him to be a

Christian, because he believes still in the actual historicity of Jesus, even though he has abandoned his faith in Christ, he was at one time a rising star amongst evangelicals, and was considered to be a promising, great influence in the minds of evangelical academia at one point, and he just totally abandoned the faith, although retaining some truth about the historical origins of it.

Well, that's a long way of saying, anti -right is very often included in this group of folks in these documentaries, and ironically, he would be the conservative one, typically, in contrast to these other folks.

And one of the things that's bizarre about anti -right, that I don't know if you were even aware of this yourself, but I heard an interview with Dr.

Wright, and a liberal interviewer, and Dr.

Wright, although he believes firmly in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, he denies the bodily resurrection of Lazarus.

In fact, it was his way of a wrong approach to preserve a biblical truth, since Jesus Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection, anti -right appeared to believe in this discussion that that must mean that Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead, and therefore

Lazarus could only have been resuscitated, not resurrected. So, a very strange idea, and not a very common one amongst evangelicals.

But, I think I've said enough for now, and you can pick up where I left off there. Well, no,

I'm grateful for what you're saying, because I can build a little bit on it, Chris. He's known as a number of more liberal folk, who are even called evangelicals, because they see scripture as narrative, as story, and they tend to get credibility because they're always quoting facts from scripture, but their propositions are not necessarily accurately derived from scripture, and in many ways they avoid definite propositions in a theological sense.

The emphasis is on narrative, and the effect that the narrative has on your mind and imagination.

There's a sense in which you can use scripture without seeing any actual objective reality at all from it.

You know, the whole history of the Hebrew people, the whole history of the

New Testament era and the apostles, it's all symbolic, and so you don't have to worry too much about defending fact and history, and I think there's a lot of that tied up in what

N .T. Wright teaches. People have a confidence in him because he tells stories from the

Bible. I don't believe he derives the right facts or conclusions from the stories that he employs from scripture, and I think it's a trick, and I don't know if he knows that or is conscious of it, but it's very, very deceptive, because they're using biblical terminology, but using it in a wrong sense.

People hear familiar words and vocabulary, and they think, oh, this man is safe, I'll listen to him, but they're smuggling a lot of alien ideas into their theological presentation, and my feeling is that if we can say, and I'm not saying this in any predictive way, because we're told we're living in the last days anyway, because the next great act of God is the return of Christ, our redemption is now complete, but I believe that when people are going to be deceived in masses towards the end of history, it's going to take very plausible theology to do that.

It's got to sound biblical, and so it catches people unawares, and we as Christians have got to be alert and thoroughly taught in scripture to be able to detect this, and I sense that the church has lost its ability to even get a whiff of false doctrine.

It's going to be so close to the real thing. Satan is a great counterfeiter, and if we're not careful, he can dupe us, and I believe we're living in an era when there's so much theology that sounds right, it's also suspicious, and I feel,

I'm not saying anything about two people in mind that I could quote, N .T. Wright and Fleming Rutledge, but I think these people are shadowing scripture, but smuggling a different message into it.

For instance, both those two people I mentioned do not believe in a substitutionary atonement, and they argue against it.

They've got another idea of substitution, but not Christ dying for our sins, bearing the consequences of our sins, relieving us of the penalty of our sins by his death, and so I think they diminish the saving power of the

Lord Jesus, and that is what I find offensive, and you do find people coming to you in great perplexity, because they don't necessarily, and this has nothing to do with their abilities or their intelligence, they're wrapped up in other pursuits.

The thing is, there are theologians who are very deft at counterfeiting, and getting acclaim, and even making a considerable amount of money and fame from deviating from the gospel, but tempting people's appetite, because it's got a little dose of scripture somewhere around it, and they think they're getting the full gospel.

Now let me have you clarify something. Were you including N .T. Wright amongst those other theologians who deny substitutionary atonement?

Yes, I do, absolutely. To me, N .T. Wright is treated with too much deference and politeness by orthodox theologians.

They're amazed at his skill, he's a very skillful man, he's a very intelligent man, a marvellous weaver of words, a wizard of words.

What we have to say, and here I agree with John MacArthur, because John MacArthur has a brief video on YouTube, where he says he's been reading

N .T. Wright, volumes of N .T. Wright for years, and doesn't understand him, and doesn't know what he believes.

But I can tell you what he doesn't believe, and that's justification by faith, which

Paul says, that's how we're saved, 2 Corinthians 10, is it, or 1

Corinthians 10, verse 5, and then also he doesn't agree that he bore our sins.

That is a barbarous view, you know, a father killing his son. What they don't see is that Christ came willingly to be a voluntary victim in our stead.

Christ as the second person of the Trinity is in full agreement with the mission of the Father.

There's no difference between them. He came to bear our penalty out of love for sinners and obedience to the

Father. And the plan of salvation, which he's speaking here in very worldly, earthly terms, is a greed.

It's a compact between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, where they are fully harmonious together.

And I just think N .T. Wright is duping people. I have no compunction, if that's the term

I need, to say this man is a massive deceiver, and he's getting license from his colleagues to spread his false teaching, and his latest book for $50,

I used one of his books and I'm just being a bit frivolous here for a doorstop, this latest book for $50 would be an excellent way of keeping cathedral doors ajar in England.

And the awful thing is, the man who's backing him up on this, Robert Byrd, who is at Leon Morris' seminary in Melbourne, the

Byrd is following the same flight path as N .T. Wright. And I don't know why other scholars defer to him.

There's too much going on between academics that is not healthy for the Church, Chris.

They live in a world, a realm of their own, and I sometimes sense with N .T.

Wright, you could put it down to my subjective reaction because of my personality, but I think that sometimes he's sneering at the people who can't catch on to his view, that they're all boys getting up preaching something that's comfortable and they know, and they don't want to make the adjustment to his theories.

So I think he's a very dangerous man. I don't know if I'm getting into legal technicalities there, but I just feel he's a hazard to the

Church. And if you read the first chapter of Galatians, which I know he twists and turns and distorts, but I cannot see how people don't see that to some extent the curse to the person who evacuates the gospel of justification by faith.

I cannot see how in some way he's liable to at least, you know, being accused of guilty of attacking the central faith of our proclamation, justification by faith, through the death, resurrection, and ongoing grace of our

Lord Jesus. We're going to come right back after this first commercial break.

I want to ask you something to follow up on your assertion that N .T. Wright denies substitutionary atonement.

But if anybody else wants to join us, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Always give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than 90 minutes to go, is one of my favorite guests of all time,

Roger Salter, the rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, a confessionally reformed and Protestant and conservative and biblically orthodox

Anglican congregation, adhering to the Thirty -Nine Articles as its summary of biblical truth.

If you'd like to join us on the air, we are discussing the heresy of N .T.

Wright and why he is a danger to the body of Christ. We're also going to have momentarily our guest today,

Roger Salter, contrast N .T. Wright as a pastor with Martin Luther and why these two stand on opposite ends of very important, vital, life -giving truths.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

What I was going to ask you in regard to a clarification of Dr. N .T.

Wright's views on substitutionary atonement, or in this specific case, his denial of substitutionary atonement, would this be something, from your knowledge of him, that he outright, openly, and consciously denies, or is this something that you've deduced from other things that he has written?

The reason why I ask that is that I don't believe any

Arminian evangelical, and I'll even throw into that mix any

Amaraldian evangelical, can logically and consistently believe in the substitutionary death of Christ, even though they may claim to believe in that, because if Christ died as a substitute for anyone, that person will certainly, without question, be in heaven with Christ after death, or if Christ should return before they die.

So, even though I would consider many among those folks my precious brethren in Christ, who make that same claim as I do, that they believe in substitutionary atonement,

I really don't think that their claim can stand up to scrutiny when they believe that most for whom

Christ died will be in hell, according to their theology, whereas those of us who are

Reformed believe that everyone for whom Christ died will be redeemed, saved, in heaven one day, because he only died for his elect.

So, in regard to N .G. Wright, that's my long way of asking, is this something that you've just deduced from his other statements and beliefs and teachings, or is it something that he flat -out denies?

Well, I have two authorities for what I've concluded, Chris. The first is, and anybody who goes to YouTube can do this, just look up John MacArthur on N .T.

Wright, and he quotes from N .T. Wright's book, The Day the Revolution Began, and he describes the atoning work of Christ, that he died on the cross for sins, and bearing sins, as a pagan influence.

It comes from heathen thought and false religion.

It is not the biblical teaching. He largely follows a view that was propounded in the 20th century by a

Scandinavian bishop, Gustav Ahlen. The book was called Christus Victor, and it advocates that the central theme of the atonement was

Christ's defeat of the dark powers. We have been delivered through the death of Christ from the dark and evil powers that have dominated our world and humanity.

There is not much thought there about atonement in the sense for sin, or reconciliation of us to God.

It is a very, to my mind, it contains an element of the truth. Satan was defeated by Christ's death on the cross, and that was clear in the resurrection.

But there are several themes in the crucifixion, but the central one for us as convinced sinners is that he died in my stead.

That's justification. And, you know, first of all, the right projects justification far into the future at the last judgment.

We can hope for it. We're amongst, we've got a provisional justification now, but we have to be keepers of the law.

And to my mind, and all this is by the power of the spirit, that suggests to me at least semi -Pelagianism, because who of us keeps the law even as believers in a way that is acceptable to God?

I think he's wrong all around. And that book, The Day the Revolution Began, well, he's describing the wrong revolution, and it's not on God's side.

And, you know, I have here a book that I would recommend to anyone who is seriously interested in N .T.

Wright and the New Perspective. It is an excellent book, Chris.

It's called Justification and the New Perspective on Paul, by Guy Prentiss Waters.

It is a superb book. This was written some time ago in the 90s, I believe, or the early 2000s.

Wright has gotten bolder and bolder over the years in what he denies and undermines.

But here, in his summary of Wright, can I have just a little bit of time to read one paragraph?

Oh, definitely. This is what Dr. Waters says. Concerning the death of...oh,

sorry. Let me repeat our email address while you clear your throat.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Are you okay now, Roger? I am. I've got a good formula for croaky throats,

Chris. H2O. Concerning the death of Christ, says

Dr. Prentice, more generally considered, Wright concedes that we may speak of Christ's death as atoning and propitiatory.

Nevertheless, in terms of expressing the mechanism whereby Christ's death is applied to the believer,

Wright is consistently vague. Although Wright uses language of the law to speak of Christ's death,

Christ's death was judicial punishment in Christ. Sin was condemned.

Wright also rejects imputation as a Pauline doctrine. Consequently, one cannot speak in traditional terms of the pardon of the believer's sin by reason of imputation.

Where Christ's death does connect with the believer's experience, in Wright's view, is in its defeat of the powers of sin and death, which

I was saying was Ormond's point of view and Rutledge's point of view,

Fleming, Rutledge. So he's gotten bolder by saying, really, it's an importation into Paul's teaching of a heathen theme, heathen thought.

And he just sees the idea of substitution as too bloody and too barbaric for us to consider to be the truth of God.

And that's precisely what one of the great lords of the realm said to George Whitefield when he was preaching in one of these lounge room sessions with the aristocrats before him, and he preached the substitution of Christ.

I don't know if it was a little bowling broke, but somebody like that leapt up and said, you know, this is barbarism, this is barbarism.

People cannot understand that Christ willingly bore, you know, the penalty, dreadful as it was, for our disobedience and our offenses.

So I believe that he takes from the Christian believer the very essence of Christ's atoning work.

I believe in propounding all of his philosophical and ancient language, knowledge.

I believe he's taking the scriptures out of the hands of the ordinary person and saying, you've got to go to the specialist, you've got to go to the expert.

And you know, scripture tells us that we have a message that even he who runs can read.

And you know, the idea that any devout person who trusts in Christ picks up the

Bible and is so misled all the way through, point after point, I think is outrageous.

We don't need the academics, they're there to serve us and to serve God with humility and in truthfulness and independence upon him.

And I think it's become a big game of I'm better than you, my thesis is better than yours, my books sell more than yours.

There's a lot of pride and arrogance in the academy, and it's good, we need it, but I just think that we kowtow too much to these people who say,

I've got the answer, I've got the idea. God leads his people to an understanding of scripture.

And I know there's a lot of silly, you know, individual views that people can adopt, but when we go back to that idea of John, that we have an anointing and a sense of what is right, even if we can't articulate it, we know that something smells.

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if you could... That's nice. I'm sorry, you've completely cut out again, so I didn't know you were not finished with your statement.

Oh, sorry, Chris. Do you want to say the last few words of what you just said? Well, I was saying that I think, as John says in his letter, that every believer has an anointing, and that is the

Spirit of God within them. And I think when we encounter something that is dubious, we might be calm for a little while, but we begin to catch on intuitively that this is not right.

It's not consistent with the revelation of God. And somehow we, you know, divest ourselves of some of these heresies that are so cunning, so artful.

I mean, the devil is a genius at presenting error as truth. And I just have this dreadful fear that we have certain theologians labeled as evangelicals in our time who are poisoning the minds of the people of God and leading the

Church astray. I'd like you to give a summary before I go to any listener questions, which

I will go to listener questions when we return from our midway break momentarily. So please be patient, folks.

Those of you who have sent in questions are right. But if you could, in summary, explain the new perspective on Paul, which is something that N .T.

Wright has become very well known for. In fact, it seems to be synonymous with him. And our friends who are adherents of the

Federal Vision Movement, you'll have a mixture of those that agree with N .T.

Wright on this, and you'll have those that adamantly disagree with him, and they will say, stop mixing us and confusing us with new perspective advocates.

We are not. We're different. But I've met people on both sides of that coin, if you will, in the

Federal Vision, those that adhere to what N .T. Wright teaches and those who disagree with him on it.

But if you could, in summary, what is Federal Vision? Why has it become synonymous with N .T.

Wright? Did he coin that phrase, actually? And why is it so dangerous? Can I just make an observation quickly,

Chris? Yeah, in fact, make the observation, and then we'll go to our midway break, and you can answer my question when we return from the break.

I've been losing you from time to time as well. Oh, really? Yes. But the new perspective is too broad a field to cover and sum up, because the main proponents of it disagree in detail with each other.

And where I am most concerned about N .T. Wright is purely on justification and atonement, because these are pastoral issues.

Well, from what I understand, and you can correct me if I misspoke at all, the main problem with the new perspective on Paul is that it advocates an idea that, especially in the

Book of Galatians, evangelicals, and the Reformers specifically, and all their heirs, were off -base, were incorrect in our efforts to exegete

Paul's letter to the Church at Galatia when we deduce from that letter and conclude that Paul was declaring as damning heresy anyone who would add works to faith in order to be justified.

And we deduce that from Paul's letter to the Galatians because the

Judaizers were teaching that one had to be circumcised in addition to having faith in Christ.

And for all that we know, the Judaizers, whom Paul declared were false

Christians that had no gospel at all, and he declared them accursed, the only difference they had with biblically orthodox

Christians that we know of is that they insisted on circumcision in addition to everything else.

From what we know, they were Trinitarian. From what we know, they were believers in the necessity of believing in Christ as their

Lord and Savior and Messiah. We don't know of anything that they disagreed with us on other than this addition of circumcision as a necessity, and therefore

Paul condemned them for having no gospel at all. And when the New Perspective advocate, including

N .T. Wright, exegetes or attempts to exegete Galatians, they have determined that Paul was merely condemning racial and ethnic bigotry of the

Jews who were claiming that their Gentile brothers and sisters had to become a part of this exclusively

Jewish club known as Christianity, and that is what Paul was condemning, not an addition of works to faith.

Did I summarize that in some way correctly? I think so, Chris. It's a question of identity.

How does a Gentile get into the people of God? And the Jews were saying, well, you go through all the

Jewish rites and observe all the ceremonies, and that's the ceremonial law.

And so they say, well, Paul is abolishing the ceremonial law for the sake of Gentiles, and all you've got to do is say, and the

Jews... And you cut out again. Roger, are you there? ...the

ethnic people of God are to be the passé now, and you come to the family of God, the family of Abraham, through acknowledgment of the

Lordship of Christ. Okay, Bob, we're going to have to have you pick up there, because we have to go to our midway break.

This is a longer than normal break, folks, so if you could please be patient with us.

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show so that they can air public service announcements to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, while we air our globally heard commercials.

Please make best use of this time by writing down as much of the information as you can, provided by our advertisers, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, because keep in mind, folks, if our advertisers decide to cancel their contracts with us, we will go off the air.

We absolutely rely upon our advertisers to exist. So, please, try to keep them happy, keep them supporting us financially by patronizing them.

Also, send in your questions. Write down your questions during this break for our guest,

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And he also wrote a biography, I believe, of a 20th century bishop,

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And Roger, I was just having you clarify a summary of what the new perspective on Paul is and I basically said that one of the reasons it is of great concern to those who treasure as a hallmark of the

Christian faith justification by faith alone by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone that put all of our trust in our salvation in the finished once and for all work of Christ on Calvary with nothing that we add at all except for our sin those of us who claim that as a vital and core belief of the

Christian faith are troubled by the new perspective because one of its claims is that Paul was not condemning the addition of works to faith to be justified in his letter to the

Galatians and other places that he was only condemning Jewish exclusivity in the church and if you could pick up where I left off there.

Yes, the idea of N .T. Wright and the NPP is that Paul was not talking about the moral law in Galatians or about our sinfulness but a matter of identity that we as Gentiles need to enter the community of Christ and we don't have to observe any of the

Jewish requirements to do that now. We're freed from that obedience to the law, circumcision various other things that characterized the

Jewish people the gospel is that all people are now welcome in this community that is to honor

Christ as King and Lord and resurrected and as a community reflect the character of God to the world so that ultimately through our works and obedience the world is one to God and I feel as a lack of intensity when it comes to spirituality a lack of reality when it comes to our own moral accountability and sinfulness

I believe it robs us of a very personal need and meeting with the

Lord Jesus Christ I think Wright's doctrine of sin in personal terms is weak ultimately and a lot of people see this that he's moving in the direction of a social gospel because mainly that's what

Christ came to fulfill when the world becomes just under his reign that there will be peace among mankind and you know the predominance of love and mutual concern and courtesy

I just feel that the doctrine of redemption in a personal and spiritual way is very weak and that he presents us with an entanglement of ideas that are hard to separate they're strung upon a series of misquoted texts that people hear the text and they think oh this man is biblical we can trust him

I just don't think you can trust him for a moment and the MPP as I understand it says that Judaism wasn't a religion devoid of grace they believed in grace

Paul was very happy as a Jew he was happy with his law keeping he had no questions no anguish of conscience he just made this transference to being obedient to Christ in this new more open era and Luther was somebody who

I heard when I was in England attending lectures on Luther that he was a man of profound psychological concern and illness that he was somebody who was caught up in this anguish of soul that is not necessary can

I read something? yes definitely this is from an interview with N .G.

Wright some years ago as I say he's much bolder now in what he denies and how he denies it but anyway he says

Luther comes to the question how can I find a gracious God he approaches this question from his

Augustinian framework he was an Augustinian monk actually he claimed that he didn't understand

Augustine that well until after he had been converted which might not be the case this we do know his antithesis of grace works or faith works or faith law was strongly conditioned by his own soul struggles the struggles to be an obedient monk and what he thought all this hinged upon.

This was all rooted in the world of medieval Catholicism Luther then is reading

Paul looking for the bits and pieces that will help him resolve his particular question very clearly there were thousands and thousands of other people at the time who were facing exactly the same question and were thrilled to hear there was a different answer than they had been given so he's saying that Luther was really struggling with personal issues that determined how he interpreted

Paul and he mentions this along with Aquinas on transubstantiation both of these men were conditioned by the mindset of their time and so he says he's just like Aquinas but just like the matter of transubstantiation the problem here is that this has led us down some pretty murky paths so justification by faith from Martin Luther has led us down some very murky paths.

According to N .T. Wright Yes, and he says justification is not a salvation word, it's a second order doctrine.

Justification is about God being faithful to his covenant. Oh that actually, are you finished with that because I do have a question that is actually okay we have a question from R .J.

in White Plains, New York that really relates to what you just said he,

R .J. says is a denial of the Reformation understanding of justification by faith alone one of the reasons in your opinion that N .T.

Wright and his advocates are very ecumenical typically with Roman Catholics and do not view the

Church of Rome as a false church or with some true teachings but view it as a true church with some false teachings well ecumenism is one of the great aims of N .T.

Wright he won't tie himself down to any doctrinal statement from the past.

He doesn't like confessions of faith he doesn't like the traditional interpretation of Scripture and when people say well, in some instance, look he's such a confusing person and I'm not sure he really knows what he's trying to say either.

I think he has a reaction against his evangelical past and he's just got to escape from it because it affects his mind it makes him uncomfortable somehow or other and I think it's in the area of conviction of sin and he doesn't really have a pastoral answer you know, he says

Luther is a man of anguish because he's got a medieval mind well,

David wasn't medieval and he wrote Psalm 51 out of anguish for his sinfulness

Lord, I know I'm a sinner, please have mercy upon me. Was David psychologically ill as well?

I think we all are in that sense. Our conscience makes us all psychologically uncomfortable and of course

Luther's view that he might have even been losing his mind from his own words was when he was still a

Roman Catholic monk and had not yet discovered the answer to being at peace with God, am

I right? Bless you Kurt, bless you What I was saying was Luther did fear that he had lost his sanity but he was still a monk at the time, he was still a

Roman Catholic monk who physically tortured himself trying to appease

God and be at peace with him so that did not continue throughout his life after becoming convinced that he had peace with God by his justification through faith alone

Well, I might have missed something and write 30 volumes which I don't intend to read.

If I want to read them I go to a library I'm not lining his pocket with his false teaching.

The fact is that he doesn't seem to recognize that we are in combat not just with sin and evil of a human nature but of a supernatural nature and we are being attacked constantly by, you know, the great archenemy of the

Lord himself Satan and his demons and they would drive us insane if only they could.

So we are dealing with possibilities of insanity if we want to put it that way if Satan gets dominion over us, he will do anything he can to destroy our peace and destroy us.

But I just don't find that there's an acute sense of sin in M .T.

Wright's teaching at all Sin is seen in social terms the gospel is seen ultimately in social terms he's very ecumenical, he's very socially conscious about the injustices of the world as we all should be but the gospel is much more than that and so I would say there are an awful lot of people like Luther who are wanting to find a gracious God and I don't find that problematic at all.

I think that's the best thing that can happen to us Now it's interesting that you have said that M .T.

Wright doesn't seem to be concerned with sin because it makes me wonder why any adherent of the federal vision would find an affection toward him.

And again, I'm not saying that all federal vision adherents are M .T.

Wright fans, but I have met a number that are and even though I disagree adamantly with the federal visionist's answer to sin and believing having an extreme view that someone who is truly a member of the covenant of Christ can be removed from it because of their simple behavior and their lack of repentance of it that is, how they could have that view and at the same time embrace

M .T. Wright which from what you are saying does not seem to take sin seriously

Well I think the federal vision which is absorbed to a large extent the views of M .T.

Wright, he's not the originator of it, but they have adopted him they have very strange views about original sin and that the children of two believing federal visionists, their children are cleansed in the womb they are not born sinful and you know,

I can't go into all the physical characteristics of this but apparently the egg in the mother and the sperm in the father are both sanctified and that product of that union can be already sanctified before they are formed in the womb

Wow, I didn't know that about federal vision belief Crazy ideas

Sounds like the Immaculate Conception heresy of the Roman Catholic Church regarding to Mary It's something like that, and I'll tell you something that I probably shouldn't, but I will

Chris, my church was just about emptied by federal visionists, they found us as a community of Anglicans they wanted something sacramental they have a very

Anglo -Catholic quality to them which they probably don't recognize as Anglo -Catholic and they're sacramentalists you become elect when you're baptized you're not elect before the commencement of creation you're elect in the waters of baptism and it's a total distortion they say they follow the

Westminster faith confession they're just like right they twist and distort everything they claim to follow and it's such a mishmash and like right, and they're the same you pin them down and say what do you believe about this and they say well we haven't quite formulated our complete point of view yet they dodge and duck around like circus and you've cut out again but I can say from personal experience that the federal vision movement is not a monolith and there seems to be some disagreement amongst them although most of the folks that I know that would disagree with your description of them don't even acknowledge that these disagreements exist among them so I know that they are not monolithic, in fact even though I think the vast majority believe in infant communion they don't all believe in it and other things like that we that was an issue for us

Chris, infant communion when I told people that we would consider children who could confess that yes,

I don't know what's going on why you keep cutting out, Roger it's kind of a strange thing going on I don't know if somebody is trying to call you or what it is, but you do have occasion to cut out we have a listener we have in fact, let me let me first go to Donald in Jacksonville, North Carolina he says is justification by faith alone marginal, optional, or central in the

Anglican church in North America, or original sin? this scribe doesn't hear it well obviously that is not the denomination that you are in the

ACNA Anglican Church of North America since your church is independent which some would say is an oxymoron, if you're calling yourself an

Anglican absolutely yes, I am an oxymoron but from what you know about the

Anglican Church of North America, and by the way I do have friends in that denomination I've even interviewed folks in that denomination, who

I believe are nearly on the same exact page as I am, theologically but, what do you have to say about this?

well could I mention David Virtue, and Virtue Online? yes, sure because of what

Anglicanism Anglicanism is you know, a vast expanse of different points of view, and spiritualities he covers that whole expanse, you know on his website, but if you go to it, you can find a lot of very good evangelical and reformed

Anglican articles and points of view so I I long for the day when we have an

Anglican body of believers who adhere to what

I consider to be our constitutional documents and we're not stuck there, we're not static, we can develop and grow from the heritage that we have, but we won't contradict it, and I long for the day when you can go to an

Anglican denomination that is safely, truly, perpetually reformed in its position it's a mess at the moment and I've learned from Anglicans of other persuasions

I've learned, you know, good things from them, but I just feel that we don't yet have that accurate reflection of historic

Anglicanism in a denominational form And hence your hesitancy to have

St. Matthews join one of the denominations yet, anyway Yes, I mean it's not because we're arrogant or we think we're right, it's just that when you come under the authority of a bishop and a denomination you want to be sure that you're going to be supported, that you're not in any way going to be blindsided by discipline for holding the doctrines that you do as I happen to be, and I'm not saying that out of a wounded sort of soul,

I'm just saying that you've got to be very careful that your government of anybody or denomination or congregation is sound theologically because if we sign a document of obedience to an authority that is going to be over us it's got to be an authority you can trust and love and work with, and bishops can be very devious, dangerous people

Well, thank you, Donald, in Jacksonville, North Carolina. Please keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and spreading the word in North Carolina and beyond about the program

Bruce in Hoover, Alabama says, has any community of Christian churches globally whose role, among other things, is to protect the truth of God's word, formally pronounced this man's teaching as unbiblical and in direct opposition to the

Word of God? If so, who? And he has a second follow -up question I'm assuming he's talking about a denomination like an official denominational opposition or declaration of the falsehood of anti -right

Well, I know that the Presbyterians maybe even a decade ago, I don't know. Their national convention was based on dealing with the federal visionists because it was so divisive

I don't know the outcome of that and whether it's gone into some sort of documentation that affects the whole denomination the

Presbyterian Church of America, but I do know some of its best representatives as theologians deal very courteously very politely very fairly with anti -right but disagree with them strongly theologically

I find their patience I understand it we are meant to be patient and courteous but you get to a point with certain people where you realize what a danger they are and that you shouldn't be fellowshiping with them and so I am a little more hot -headed perhaps than a lot of these people who are courteous and deferential to right because he's a great scholar he's a great mind, he's a very gifted person, but so have many heretics been when

Bernard of Clairvaux in the 12th century, that wonderful man whom both

Luther and quoted second only to Augustine, when they quote the church fathers, they quote

Bernard of Clairvaux on election and justification and all the doctrines we hold dear more than any other authority in the church when he was dealing with the the

Pharisees of Peter told him that Satan provides those who speak on his behalf with the words that they use, and even the scriptures that they use, but they twist the scriptures that they use and that is more dangerous sometimes than a direct and detectable heresy

Well we are going to our final break and when we return I'll ask Bruce from Hoover, Alabama second, a follow -up question if anybody else would like to join us please send in your email now before we run out of time, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, don't go away we'll be right back after these messages with more from Roger Salter Chris Arnson host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Welcome back, and this is our final segment of our interview today with Roger Salter on the heresies of N .T.

Wright. And we have a second question from Bruce in Hoover, Alabama, who says, have any denominations or Christian communities formally embraced the heresy of N .T.

Wright? An exact opposite question from the first one. Well, it's spread throughout a number of denominations.

Actually, Chris, it's affected a lot of Presbyterian congregations. Obviously, it gets a lot of endorsement from Anglican congregations, but it has spread throughout the whole evangelical world, certainly.

And I don't know that there are any specific bodies that, how can

I put it, affirm it as part of their denominational stance. But the thing is just so widespread, it is ecumenical.

Well, I'd like you to have about three minutes or so to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this warning that you have about the writings and teachings of N .T.

Wright. It may not be a good conclusion, but I've got a quote here from The Challenge of Paul, one of Wright's more recent books.

Can I really rattle that off? Of course, you can. Of course. Okay. He says, if we come with the question, how do we get to heaven, or in Martin Luther's terms, how can

I find a gracious God? And if we try to squeeze an answer to those questions out of what

Paul says about justification, see how patronizing this is? That's me, not himself.

You will probably find one. It may not be totally misleading, but... Are you there,

Roger? You're cut off. ...plastic framework in which the only question that matters is whether we humans have behaved ourselves and so amassed a store of merit, and if not, where we can find such a store amassed by someone else on our behalf.

It's about the vocational framework in which humans are called to reflect God's image in the world, and about the rescue operation whereby

God has, through Jesus, set humans free to do exactly that. And I feel that it's maybe me, and maybe

I need more sanctification, but the fact is, I find that almost sneering at traditional believers in justification by faith.

Well, we have time for one more question from C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and C .J.

wants to know, why do you name the name of someone in your interview today like N .T.

Wright? Shouldn't it be best if we just expose the heresy without naming the person by name?

Well, you would be in disagreement, C .J., with the Apostle Paul. Hihimaletus and Philetus he mentioned by name, but any other comments you have,

Roger? Well, you know, the teachers in the early first century of the

Church, there were a lot of peripatetic teachers who went around. They had to, if they were genuine, arrive with a commendation in print on a scroll, or whatever they used at the time, to say that they were genuinely disciples of Christ and to be listened to, because there was so much false teaching, and so many heretics circulating around the early, you know, second, first century, that you need to know their names.

Call them out so you can identify them and people aren't fooled. And, of course, you have to be very careful whenever you do something like this, because you don't want to be guilty of violating one of the key commandments of the

Decalogue, a bearing false witness against your neighbor. That is, thou shalt not bear a false witness against your neighbor.

And I think that our guest today, Roger Salter, has provided ample quotes directly from the writings of N .T.

Wright to bolster his accusations as being true and accurate.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being such a superb guest once again. Roger, if you could remain on the phone while we go off the air so I can schedule you for another interview.

You always have an open door here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for an interview.

And I want to remind our listeners that you can find out more about St. Matthew's Anglican Church of Birmingham, Alabama at stmanglican .weebly

.com. S -T -M, which stands for St. Matthew's, anglican .weebly .com.

You can also go to rogersalter .com. rogersalter .com. And Salter is spelled without the

P as in Peter, unlike the great handbook from the Old Testament canon.

And I want to remind you folks, especially our Episcopalian and Anglican listeners,

Archbishop Peter Robinson is our guest, God willing, on Tuesday, September 22nd, to discuss the fall of the

Episcopal Church and the rise of biblically orthodox Episcopal groups and bodies.

I want to thank all of you for listening, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater