September 9, 2020 Show with Roger Salter on “A Choice of Pastors: Luther or N. T. Wright?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Introduction to Roger Salter and the Topic of N. T. Wright

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this ninth day of September 2020.

And I always love having back as a returning guest on this program somebody who has truly become one of my very favorite guests, and also it seems a favorite guest of many in my audience, and his name is Roger Salter.

He is rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and today we are going to be addressing a very important theme, a choice of pastors, Martin Luther or N .T. Wright. An Anglican rector warns Christ Church about a very popular and very heretical Anglican scholar.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Roger Salter.

It's a genuine privilege to be with you.

I am glad that you share my joy in having you back on. And I want to make it clear to our listeners this topic today was my decision, my choice, because of the fact that I believe N .T. Wright has wrought havoc in the body of Christ, perhaps even more specifically, or especially, in some of the circles that I have traveled in theologically.

I think that Reformed people had been most susceptible to N .T. Wright for some reason, and has led them into embracing the New Perspective on Paul, which I and a multitude of Reformed scholars, theologians, and pastors I know share my opinion with me that that is a dangerous and heretical concept, the New Perspective on Paul, and other things that N .T. Wright has popularized.

But that is the reason why we are discussing this today. And my guest did not voluntarily choose this topic, but I chose it for him, and he agreed. But before we go into this subject at hand, Roger, as we always do, especially for the sake of my listeners who have not yet heard you on the show, or they're not familiar with your blog, Living Oracles, tell our listeners about St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

Well, we're a small group of folks...

Yeah, Roger, you cut out for some reason. I don't know if you have a call coming in or something, but you went blank.

I can't see anything, Chris.

Okay, well, if you could just continue.

Okay, but I feel in that...

Yes, and that computer noise just blotted out what you said. You hold a lot in common with other Reformed churches, is what you were saying.

That's right, and I want people... Because we're Anglicans, they don't have to be afraid of it.

Well, it's certainly not the case with your wing of the Anglican Church, those that are truly committed to the 39 Articles of Religion, and not just using it to give lip service to the historicity of the Anglican Church.

Yes.

You know, just on paper, if you will. By the way, folks, for those of you unfamiliar with the 39 Articles of Religion, I, as a Reformed Baptist, can give a hearty amen to nearly every single thing included in those 39 Articles.

The only difference I would have with Roger, my guest, is over the issues of paedo-baptism, or infant baptism, and also areas involving a church government. But in actuality, right now, St. Matthew's is very much like a Reformed Baptist church in its government, since it is an independent and autonomous church at this point.

That's right. And I also, and I know that I've said this ad nauseam infinitum on this program, but I can't help but say with a sly smile on my face that I even agree with the 39 Articles article on baptism, because it says that we should not forbid children to receive baptism.

It says nothing about infants. And if a child repents and believes in the name of Christ, I would strongly urge him to be baptized. By the way, I'm going to give our email address right away. If any of our listeners would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you are somebody who is very enamored with N .T. Wright, and you want to criticize something our guest is saying, and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity, we will let you slide.

We will let you remain anonymous. You might be even in a church that adores N .T. Wright, and your book room, your library, your bookstore is filled with his writings, his published works. You've had him speak at your own congregation from your own pulpit, but you are starting to have questions about his orthodoxy, his biblical soundness, and perhaps you're going against the grain of your pastors and your congregation, or perhaps you're a pastor and you're going against the grains of your fellow elders or your denomination on this issue.

We would understand that you would want to remain anonymous, but if it's just a theological, doctrinal question, then please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, first of all, I think it'd be wise for you to give a summary explanation of who exactly N .T. Wright is.

Well, Dr. Les, I've never really been familiar with it in past informed theological circles and colleges and centers. I'm a little bit baffled thinking about some of his assertions. I always feel that you have to confront doubts head on, that if there's something that's been asserted and it seems worthwhile investigating it thoroughly, you can be craven about these.

And again, it caused me a great deal of unease, but I don't think I really understood those days, not as well as in a way writing a warning about who I was, to in any way refute them, and are very serious.

I'm going to repeat our email address while you cough. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And one thing that we should make clear, especially since we are having a discussion from an Anglican point of view, that N .T. Wright would not be someone that would be categorized as a liberal, of which there are or is an abundance in Anglicanism and Episcopalianism.

There are many that are total and complete apostates who deny the pillars of the faith, who deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth of Christ, the sinless life of Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ.

I believe I may have said this, but the deity of Christ. There are even religious scholars and those who have been ordained in academia who deny these things. And N .T. Wright would not be one that denies at least the things that I listed.

In fact, from what I can recall, before it became more well known what he believed about the New Perspective, and we will get into exactly what that is momentarily, but from what I understand, your average run-of-the-mill evangelical churches were using videos and audio recordings and perhaps even other kinds of visual aids in teaching people the basics of the faith in their congregations.

Isn't that not true that he at least at one time enjoyed some kind of a popularity amongst mainstream evangelicals?

I believe so, Chris, but I believe that...

Yes, in fact, many of our listeners may be familiar with him even if they don't immediately recognize his name. You will frequently see on secular television networks during especially Christmas and Easter, you will see these documentaries about the life of Christ.

And these documentaries that are run or aired by the... and created by the History Channel and National Geographic and many of these other major secular networks, they will typically feature predominantly, although not exclusively perhaps, liberal apostates who are scholars in the area of Christian history and theology.

They will very often be agnostics and atheists themselves, but you wouldn't necessarily recognize that from what they are saying because some of these folks, like John Dominick Crossan and Bart Ehrman, believe in the historicity of Christ.

They believe that he actually lived, that he's not a figment of legend and folklore and myth. So when they give lectures on television about the archaeology of the first century, about the history of Christ, something of his background, his lineage, ancestry, and so on, all of the cultural things that were going on in the time, they will very often be accurate.

And people that I know have mistaken, people like Bart Ehrman, for instance, who is an agnostic, they've mistaken him to be a Christian because he believes still in the actual historicity of Jesus, even though he has abandoned his faith in Christ.

He was at one time a rising star amongst evangelicals and was considered to be a promising, great influence in the minds of evangelical academia at one point, and he just totally abandoned the faith, although retaining some truth about the historical origins of it.

Well, that's a long way of saying N .T. Wright is very often included in this group of folks in these documentaries. And ironically, he would be the conservative one, typically, in contrast to these other folks.

And one of the things that's bizarre about N .T. Wright that I don't know if you were even aware of this yourself, but I heard an interview with Dr. Wright and a liberal interviewer, and Dr. Wright, although he believes firmly in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, he denies the bodily resurrection of Lazarus.

And in fact, it was his way of a wrong approach to preserve a biblical truth. Since Jesus Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection, N .T. Wright appeared to believe in this discussion that that must mean that Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead, and therefore Lazarus could only have been resuscitated, not resurrected.

So, a very strange idea and not a very common one amongst evangelicals. But I think I've said enough for now, and you can pick up where I left off there.

N. T. Wright, the New Perspective on Paul, and Denial of Substitutionary Atonement

Well, no, I'm grateful for what you're saying, because quoting facts are not necessary. In many ways, they avoid the theological schism narrative, and the effect that the narrative has on your mind and imagination.

There's a sense in which you can use scripture without seeing any act. You know, the whole history of the New Testament, and so you don't have to worry too much about defending. And I think there's a lot of that tied up in what N .T. Wright teaches.

People have a confidence in him because he tells stoic conclusions, and I don't know if he knows that or is conscious of it, but it's very, very deceptive terminology, but using it in a wrong sense, smuggling into their thoughts, saying this to many people living in the last day, redemption is now complete.

But I believe that when people are going to be deceived...

Now, let me have you clarify something. Were you including N .T. Wright amongst those other theologians who deny substitutionary atonement?

Yes, I did.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Oh, that was funny.

Right back after this first commercial break,.

I want to ask you something to follow up on your assertion that N .T. Wright denies substitutionary atonement. But if anybody else wants to join us, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Always give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Thank you.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arms, and your host of Iron Sharpens Wine Radio. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is one of my favorite guests of all time, Roger Salter, the rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, a confessionally reformed and Protestant and conservative and biblically orthodox Anglican congregation, adhering to the 39 articles as its summary of biblical truth.

If you'd like to join us on the air, we are discussing the heresy of N .T. Wright and why he is a danger to the body of Christ. We're also going to have momentarily our guest today, Roger Salter, contrast N .T. Wright as a pastor with Martin Luther and why these two stand on opposite ends of very important, vital, life-giving truths.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

What I was going to ask you in regard to a clarification of Dr. N .T. Wright's views on substitutionary atonement, or in this specific case, his denial of substitutionary atonement, would this be something from your knowledge of him that he outright, openly, and consciously denies?

Or is this something that you've deduced from other things he has written? The reason why I ask that is that I don't believe any Arminian evangelical, and I'll even throw into that mix, any Amaraldian evangelical, can logically and consistently believe in the substitutionary death of Christ, even though they may claim to believe in that, because if Christ died as a substitute for anyone, that person will certainly, without question, be in heaven with Christ after death, or if Christ should return before they die.

So even though I would consider many among those folks my precious brethren in Christ who make that same claim as I do, that they believe in substitutionary atonement, I really don't think that their claim can stand up to scrutiny when they believe that most for whom Christ died will be in hell, according to their theology, whereas those of us who are Reformed believe that everyone for whom Christ died will be redeemed, saved, in heaven one day, because he only died for his elect.

So in regard to N .T. Wright, that's my long way of asking, is this something that you've just deduced from his other statements and beliefs and teachings, or is it something that he flat-out denies?

Well, I have...

Oh, definitely. Pete, our email address while you clear your throat, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Are you okay now, Roger?

I am, I've got it. Concerning the death of Christ, says Dr. Prentiss, more generally, it's outrageous. I'm better than you.

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if you could...

That's nice.

I'm sorry, you've completely cut out again, so I didn't know you were not finished with your statement.

Oh, sorry, Chris.

You want to just say the last few words of what you just said?

Well, I was saying that I'd like you to give a summary.

Before I go to any listener questions, which I will go to listener questions when we return from our midway break momentarily. So please be patient, folks, those of you who have sent in questions already.

But if you could, in summary, explain the new perspective on Paul, which is something that N .T. Wright has become very well known for. In fact, it seems to be synonymous with him. And our friends who are adherents of the federal vision movement, you'll have a mixture of those that agree with N .T. Wright on this, and you'll have those that adamantly disagree with him.

And they will say, stop mixing us and confusing us with new perspective advocates. We are not, we're different. But I've met people on both sides of that coin, if you will, in the federal vision, those that adhere to what N .T. Wright teaches and those who disagree with him on it.

But if you could, in summary, what is federal vision? Why has it become synonymous with N .T. Wright? Did he coin that phrase, actually? And why is it so dangerous? Yeah, in fact, make the observation and then we'll go to our midway break and you can answer my question when we return from the break.

I've been losing you from time to time as well.

Oh, really?

Yes, but the new perspective is too broad a field to cover and sum up because the main proponents of it disagree in detail with each other. And where I am most concerned...

Well, from what I understand, and you can correct me if I misspoke at all, the main problem with the new perspective on Paul is that it advocates an idea that, especially in the Book of Galatians, evangelicals and the Reformers specifically, and all their heirs were off base, were incorrect in our efforts to exegete Paul's letter to the Church of Galatia when we deduce from that letter and conclude that Paul was declaring as damning heresy anyone who would add faith to works.

I'm sorry, vice versa. Anyone who had works to faith in order to be justified. And we deduce that from Paul's letter to the Galatians because the Judaizers were teaching that one had to be circumcised in addition to having faith in Christ.

And for all that we know, the Judaizers whom Paul declared were false Christians that had no gospel at all and he declared them accursed, the only difference they had with biblically orthodox Christians that we know of is that they insisted on circumcision in addition to everything else.

From what we know, they were Trinitarian. From what we know, they were believers in the necessity of believing in Christ as their Lord and Savior and Messiah. We don't know of anything that they disagreed with us on other than this addition of circumcision as a necessity and therefore Paul condemned them for having no gospel at all.

And when the New Perspective advocate, including N .T. Wright, exegetes or attempts to exegete Galatians, they have determined that Paul was merely condemning racial and ethnic bigotry of the Jews who were claiming that their Gentile brothers and sisters had to become a part of this exclusively Jewish club known as Christianity.

And that is what Paul was condemning, not an addition of works to faith. Did I summarize that in some way correctly?

I think so, Chris. It's a question of identity and observable...

And you cut out again. Roger, are you there?

The ethnic people of God are to be...

Okay, Bob, we're going to have to have you pick up there because we have to go to our midway break. This is a longer than normal break, folks, so if you could please be patient with us. Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show so that they can air public service announcements to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida while we air our globally heard commercials.

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We absolutely rely upon our advertisers to exist. So please try to keep them happy, keep them supporting us financially by patronizing them. Also, send in your questions, write down your questions during this break before our guest Roger Salter on NT Right, on The New Perspective, on Paul in general, on biblically orthodox, reformed, Anglican theology, etc.

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The New Perspective on Paul and Galatians

Is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious. Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not add up in praise to our great God like the psalmist did?

May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

Federal Vision, Justification, and Ecclesial Concerns

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