The "Church of Christ" & The Water Baptism Gospel w/ @DrewMouzon

The Apologetic Dog

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What's up, everybody welcome back to another YouTube video, thank you guys for joining me today

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We have another special interview another special video Kind of topic that's kind of near and dear to my heart as somebody that's that's been in Christ for a few years

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I'm bringing you guys a lot of apologetic content. I'm gonna try to endeavor to do that more with the help of the

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Lord today I have on the channel Jeremiah Nortier The apologetic dog on YouTube and we're going to be talking about the

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Church of Christ For those of you who are saying the Church of Christ, do you mean the body of Christ?

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No, I don't mean the body of Christ There's a particular sect of people sect of individuals

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You can call it a nomination if you want to you can call it a cult you may call it a cult We'll find out later from Jeremiah whether or not it is actually a cult

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But it is a sect of people that have a differing belief that is different from Orthodox Christianity in its in this precepts.

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So Jeremiah we bring Jeremiah on Jeremiah. How are you doing today? What's up,

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Drew? Thanks for having me man. Thank you for coming on I didn't get to tell them beforehand, but we actually had a scheduling conflict.

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I was I was on here Our Hower before we were supposed to be on here.

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We're both looking around like hey, what's going on here? So I was chillin with the wife and I heard my phone ding and I'm like,

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I said, babe I bet you anything drew is an hour ahead of me Yeah, I'm an hour ahead.

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So Jeremiah Nortier the project dog. He is a pastor of 12 -5 church In Jonesboro, Arkansas, right?

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Got it. Our Kansas baby our Kansas I thought for a long time.

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I thought it was in the East Coast So when I saw that, okay, it's in the East Coast and it's not in the East Coast is central We we're yeah, we're central and South.

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So you hear that little southern twang. It's it's cuz we're deep. Okay Well, thank you for for coming on the show today, man.

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Yeah. Thanks for having me. We got a we got that French background How do you say your last name moves on moves on and Nortier?

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Nortier moves on and we put our we put our own spin on it, right? Yeah, so I've asked

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Jeremiah to come on today because I wanted to talk about the the Church of Christ Like I said in the intro

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Church of Christ is Not much when I say that I'm not talking about the body of Christ So a lot of people can be mistakenly thinking

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I'm talking about the body of Christ and I'm not talking about the body of Christ I'm talking about a particular quote -unquote denomination or sect of individuals

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And in their beliefs, but before we get into that I want to give Jeremiah the floor real quick to just say a little about yourself tell people on my channel

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I'm tagging you in the title, but tell people about yourself a little bit on my side. Yeah So Jeremiah Nortier pastor and elder at 12 five church, please

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Look us up at twelve five church comm and if any of your audience drew is in the

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Northeast, Arkansas Area, please search us out. We'd love for you to come visit our fellowship

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My my main pursuit though online and all the social media platforms

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I'm starting to grow in terms of just more of the outreach, but it's through apologetics and so the apologetic dog people are like why dog why beard and It's pretty funny drew because me my wife we were in our living room trying to think about the apologetics ministry

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And she kind of said, you know You know we're reformed and Your audience may be interested in more of what that means and so we have a rich reformed heritage

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And I'm reformed Baptist is the way out that I would lean but ultimately it's what the scriptures teach at the end of the day

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Right, and so, you know, we we hold to what's called the doctrines of grace And so you kind of have the

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DOG there for now And that's how it started drew And the more you're talking

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I was like, I don't want it to just be purely on Soteriology or the method of salvation, right?

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But the more I thought about it and she was like Jeremiah the apologetic dog that has a good ring to it And so in the logo of the apologetic dog drew, have you seen the verse that's yeah 626 620.

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Yeah, and so it says Oh Timothy guard, right? To you so it's kind of like a guard dog and mentality

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It's all Christians guarding the gospel of grace right and with me doing apologetics I study epistemology the the study of knowledge and truth and I'm a student of Cornelius van

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Tille and the Presubstantial apologetic methodology would with basically says in order to know truth at all

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God would the God of truth would have to reveal himself and so that verse goes on to say avoid irreverent babble pagan philosophy all these ideologies that rival

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God's Word and Contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, right?

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And all that's code for is saying we stand on the Word of God, right? Jesus said I have it displayed off screen a little bit

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But John 17 17 says father sanctified them in the truth Your word is truth.

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And so the heartbeat of the apologetic dog is solo scriptura Scripture alone and all is scripture

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Vindicating truth and so that's a little bit kind of behind the the logo of the apologetic dog.

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Yeah, please check out his channel He has some good stuff on there. I've been been watching as I've been prepping for this talk

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So definitely check him out. He knows the stuff Well, we will see You do you do you do so first since we're talking about the the

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Church of Christ How did you come to know about? This this this sect is the nomination and all of that Yes, thank you for that question because I tell people

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I didn't really go searching for this It kind of just happened right in this way.

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I felt the call to do I mean all Christians are called to do evangelism and I remember

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I was in my early 20s and I was sharing my faith more I was sharing the gospel in my community and I first encountered a

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Jehovah's Witness who asked me Oh, can you show me one Bible verse that says

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Trinity? well they got me on a wild goose chase because I couldn't find it and I about couldn't go to sleep that night drew because I was just laying in bed thinking how do

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I Claim to worship the sovereign triune God and I have no idea how to Defend it articulate it much less prove it in Scripture and so that was good on one hand because that really made me start paying attention in my study and just be more focused right and as I continued to you know

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Share the gospel in my community It seemed like everybody's family members or friends were

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Church of Christ and at the time we just all thought another Denomination kind of like you were saying Maybe they just believe a few things a little bit differently

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But the more I interacted with Church Christ realized very quickly They believe remission of sins your sins are washed away in the waters of baptism

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That is where I come in contact with the blood right a lot. No, that's not right You know,

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I mean like in the back of my mind was no we're saved by Grace through faith, right?

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It works not of anything that we do and I'm thinking what they put way too much emphasis Baptism and Then you know start doing more research and start figuring out man this this has a deep history and we're gonna get into definitions of what makes a cult a cult with especially with the leaders and So I started

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I worked my employer for a number of years was Church of Christ I worked with Church of Christ a lot of kind people

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But just kept having those gospel conversations and over time. I started learning the lingo

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I do wanna I want to talk about this book. Maybe later Christ rescued me from the

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Church of Christ by Leanne Ferguson Oh, yeah, give me book Rex cuz I've been looking forward. So yeah, we'll talk more about that book here in a little bit, but what's interesting about the

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Church of Christ is Book chapter and verse there's gonna be a lot of similar terminology But we mean different things by what we say and so I say, you know

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Obey the gospel, but a Church Christ means something way different when they say you must obey the gospel

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So my big point is here in Jonesboro, Arkansas Everywhere is the Church of Christ and you you saw me on cultish with Trey Fisher.

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He comes out of the Church Christ He was in it for almost 20 years But we both shared something in common. This is our

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Nineveh meaning we don't we don't relish in you know evangelizing specifically the

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Church Christ, but we realize that this is a calling from God and When I started doing more research on the

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Church Christ, I found almost zero Apologetics on the Church Christ Yeah and so that's kind of one of my main emphasis at the apologetic dog is just equipping the

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Saints how to deal specifically with The cult of the Church Christ. Mm -hmm

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So perfect. So let's get into a little bit of the history Of the

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Church of Christ if you could provide any if yeah, if you could provide any Yeah, I'll give some some nuggets and I have resources on my channel as far as like books

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But it goes all the way back to Alexander and Thomas Campbell in the early 1800s

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They were a part of the restorationist movement where we see the Mormons coming out of the restorationist movement in the

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Seventh -day Adventist So in the early 1800s This was this was basically at the time of the cults and these groups wanted to restore the one true church that was lost

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That's why they essentially, you know started saying things like no creed, but Christ and when you start hearing that You're like, okay, that sounds like it's divorced from a historic faith

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Jesus said I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against him And so you you got to be careful when you're starting to say we're going to reclaim

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What was lost because when you say that well Jesus? promised not to fail right to build the church and he promised the

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Holy Spirit to guide the Apostles and a church the church essentially into all truth and so like I said the

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Church of Christ go all the way back to 1811 with Alexander and his father

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Thomas Campbell. I'm gonna got those names backwards, but they The Campbells moved from the

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Presbyterians to the Baptist and then eventually started their own sect if you will and so that's a little bit of the the back history and Over time some of the doctrines started to really solidify and what makes them distinct

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They don't like to be called a denomination. They just are by definition, right?

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and then they just they beg the question in terms of what the one true church is and We can talk about this a little bit more but they repeal to Romans 16 16 that just says churches of Christ And I'm like, yeah, but what about the first part of that?

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Okay Yeah, I remember saying I remember seeing something like that Yeah, so like he was saying he had a a run -in with the

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Church of Christ I had a similar run -in. I was telling him before we started recording. So back in 2011

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I went off to school Went off to college. I wouldn't get University. So do you graduate 2011?

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Yeah. No, I graduated in 2015 Okay, I'm a little bit older. I graduated high school in 2011

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Okay. Yeah, I graduated high school 2011. Yeah Yeah, I graduated college in 2015,

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I'm 30 you 30 I'll be 32 in 32, okay So, but yeah, so when

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I went off to college in 2011 at Wingate I grew up in you know a word of faith culture

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I grew up in church culture period church my whole life one church my entire life Going off to school, you know

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I'm trying to find a church to to go to my roommate went to the same church as this other girl and back in back home in Charlotte So I naturally go with them because I'm thinking okay

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This church has to be like my church growing up because why aren't all churches alike?

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This is before my eyes were really open to the nominations to different like different churches do different things things of that nature

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We go to this church it's in a building and Every five seconds somebody is shaking my hand asking telling us that they're glad that they were here

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So I thought that was the first thing that was weird. I'm sure that's not a Church of Christ thing that's just just new people in general thing and then

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The service starts we stand up and they just start singing. There's no instruments There's no there's just start singing and I thought that was weird.

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I was like, okay And then they start preaching off of a PowerPoint and it's just verses and scriptures and I'm like something's off That's not that something's off and this is me at 18 17 18 years old and I'm just like something's off So I never went back fast forward.

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Um, I start working at a Particular job with somebody from my same university

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He ends up with that what that girl that took us to that church and he's a part of that doctrine and We are going back and forth at our at our job about Doctrines Everything of that nature because I'm trying to invite him to a

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Bible study And then we go on this tangent and I'm asking I'm saying so if our co -worker

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Was on their deathbed and they're in the middle of nowhere Do you believe that they would be be saved if they had not got baptized and they're just like no and That kind of opened my mind to like what is this doctrine?

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What is the Church of Christ right and then we had several run -ins after the fact where he wanted to debate me

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This was like 2017 where I'm not really ready for debates all that much at that point

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But he wanted to debate me because he sees me making content people responding to it And people's lives getting changed, etc

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And we're having run -ins at work about the same the same doctrine mark 16 16 acts 238 the scripture that says one faith one baptism.

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He says shows me that scripture all these scriptures. I'm just like I'm Trying to refute it the best way possible because I'm like I know this isn't right and then

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I go home After the fact in my own Bible and I'm searching it out studying it I'm like,

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I know it's not right that scripture refutes it that scripture refutes it that scripture refutes it I know it's not right.

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Okay, cool I'm settled within myself and I haven't really seen them since but yeah What I started seeing since then was more people talking about what this

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Church of Christ stuff is So, how do people kind of fall prey to this doctrine?

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Are these individuals? Do you see or do you think these individuals are growing up in these camps or are they just getting?

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Getting swayed to the left and right Yeah, it's a number of things a lot of it is family tradition and that's been my experience is their dad was a elder of a

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Church of Christ Church or you know Rarely do people move from like being

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Baptist to Church of Christ. Usually people don't convert to the Church of Christ Okay, and the reason why is it's what you felt when you went there's a cold deadness in The Church Christ because you got to obey their drones and there's no life the spirit when

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I say the spirit is not in the Church Christ they will tell you they do not believe in the Holy Spirit. Yeah, they're like radical cessation

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And I'm yeah, they're radical cessationist and I'm like, I'm glad y 'all are saying that because at least you're letting people know

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You don't have the spirit and that's not right So that's the deal. There's a cold deadness, but People grow up in it the very few people that's that I've met that converted into it

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They married into a family that was Church Christ. Okay, I'm not crazy. All right, you know, you're not crazy. Okay I'm not crazy that confirms everything.

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Okay Mm -hmm. Yeah, so Now can we we could talk about what is a cold?

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So could you kind of give me a definition of what you believe is a cold? Yeah I'm kind of there's kind of two ways to look at what a cult is

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So if you've ever heard of the book kingdom of the cults by Walter Martin Yes, sir.

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One of his Distinguishing factors of detecting a cult was a was a cult leader so you can trace a movement back to a central figure

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There we go. Walter Martin now The reason why I'm glad you kind of show people that that's a really good resource

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Yeah, the Church of Christ and the Seventh -day Adventist group they flew under Walter Martin's radar

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Because they use such biblical term terminology and they sound like Protestants. They sound like evangelicals

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So that's why I tell people is even though Walter Martin did a great job in that book

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He kind of missed the Church Christ in the Seventh -day Adventist group But he does give us a few things to look for in a group or in a cult group

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Number one you find a central figurehead where the movement was kind of based out of and so in this case

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It's Alexander Campbell out of the restorationist movement. Okay, and cults are going to usually capitulate and distort the nature of Jesus Christ or They're gonna distort how to receive

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Jesus namely the gospel And so the big reason why the Church Christ or a cult is they add works to the gospel of grace

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Which is supposed to be by faith alone, right? And usually, you know, they're quick to point out that you can't just live however, you want and we're saying you're right the gospel of grace is not a licentious gospel meaning, you know

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It's grace all the time and we can just live however we want In fact, the Apostle Paul in Romans 6 deals with that very question

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No When you've been transformed from the heart You desire to live a life to the glory of God not to go back to sin that you were saved from Right.

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Does that make sense? I believe I believe the Church of Christ commit the Galatian one heresy and Paul says if someone comes and preaches a different gospel, then they're a curse, right?

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Exactly and so that's that's biblically why the Church Christ our cult is they preach a different gospel and Kind of outside of just biblical parameters.

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You can find the the central leader that kind of led that movement Okay, cool.

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Yeah, so that gives me gives us on saying so Yes, I do believe as a cult So I believe based off of that definition that Jeremiah just said it then that they definitely fall in the the realm of a cult so with that I Said earlier.

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I said the worship. There was no singing. I mean there was no instruments, right? And then there's the whole baptism

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Water baptism saved by water baptism debate. What are some other core balloons that the

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Church of Christ? Kind of falls under or believe Well, it's another one of those things you would look out for a red flag for a cult is they claim to be the one?

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True church if you're not a part of their group You're damned to hell and usually that's the markings of a cult is you got to join our group and if not

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You know to heck with it all yeah, and you know for one I wanted to say

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God saves people in spite of bad theology. So, you know, even though I'm reformed

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Protestant I believe that God works salvation in people and in you know different denominations he even works within the

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Church of Christ, but People can be saved and be Church Christ in spite of what is being taught to them.

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That's right, right That makes a whole lot of sense. Yeah, so And we talked about I was about one of my questions was how do they view other

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Denominations so they look at themselves as the one true church They take pride in saying we're the

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Church of Christ Romans 16 16 and we could look at that verse here in a moment Yeah, but they actually disparage

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Denominational teaching and so when they hear the term like faith alone, you know, that's one of the battle cries of the

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Reformation They just say oh that's denominational teaching, right? You've been led astray

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And anyway, I've learned the the lingo I've scaled the language barrier and I know what they mean finally when they say certain phrases when they especially quote certain verses

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Yeah, obviously they're taking verses out of context But like you said one of the things that's kind of distinct with the

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Church of Christ as we know it today is their acapella Which is not bad on right the face

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But once again, this is a legalistic group that right they're trying to work their way like in it all and even if they say

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They're not trying to earn Salvation they will tell you and I've had them say, okay So you're not trying to earn your salvation by your works, but you can't be saved without your works and they're like, yeah

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I'm like, that's a contradiction like you got it money to think about that one, right? It goes it goes back to their understanding of James chapter 2 we can talk about that a little bit more but when you look at Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 about You know

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To sing songs new songs Yeah They look at that as For one you gotta think legalistic mindset

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So right you got to do it to the T and if you don't you're disobeying God and basically you're lost and so the way that they interpret those verses is

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What doesn't say instruments and they have a very wooden hermeneutic if that makes sense, like yeah

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And and it goes back and there's a lot of history And so I've done a lot of episodes dealing with a lot of these things that we were talking about So I just want to direct your audience if if they want to hear deeper explanations

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I'd provide a lot of content for that. But anyway, it's a very wooden understanding of Scripture and One of the best ways to combat the

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Church Christ is any given proof text is just to understand the surrounding context

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Okay, perfect and I also Isn't there also something about like they take communion with like the literal

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Like loaf in like literal like want like they take it like literal, right? Another thing that they do.

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So here is the dispute within Church Christ. You got to think legalism will fight itself

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Meaning you will have a ton of Church of Christ Condemning each other right because they're interpreting the scripture a little bit differently

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But when you know, you you're very works oriented Well, if you're reading a verse and you think it's saying this and they're understanding it different in your mind, you're like they're wrong

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They're lost they're going to hell and so the dispute within the Church Christ world is you have what's called one cuppers or many cuppers and There's a dispute on if you're supposed to have one cup at communion or the

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Lord's table Or many cups and they will condemn each other based on their interpretation of them

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Wow Yeah, that's very well I've never heard of like what It's just make it you just add you're just making stuff like you're just like it's not there and you want it to be there

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So you create doctrine around something? That's not even that's so crazy. All right. Yeah, I've never heard of that before.

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Okay Sheesh, okay. So let's get into this baptism debate so They I would like I was saying earlier.

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I we can pull out some of the scriptures, but They were saying guys said mark 16 16 and I'll go ahead and read pull it out and read my mark 16 16

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It's the first scripture. So I'm at work and the first scripture the guy Tells me he says mark 16 16

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And I started verse 15 in this new King James Version They said and he said to them go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature

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Verse 16 he who believes and is baptized will be saved But he who does not believe will be condemned and the first thing

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I said to the guy while I was saying it doesn't say baptized on the second part of the verse So how doesn't that doesn't that negate like take out take away the first part and then he just went to another scripture

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Yeah, so you threw him off script. Yeah The only thing

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I would add is I want to inform your audience so there is actually Dispute in the the textual manuscript tradition, which

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I don't encourage people Yeah, explore the the textual manuscript tradition your heart will be enriched about how

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God has preserved his word And so when we have such a rich manuscript tradition

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We can kind of see what slips in as time goes on so like this this portion of scripture doesn't come onto the scene till hundreds of years later after our earliest manuscripts and That's not a bad thing because you know

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You have great persecution with the early church and people are trying to handwrite copies You know the

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Bibles and give it to each other. And so Mark's style is he's very abrupt, right and Our oldest manuscripts have

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Mark's gospel ending in verse 8 where they're astonished at an empty tomb And that's a very common with Mark to be just short sweet to the point

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And so what we what we speculate is, you know, you have a scribe Reading, you know mark and just thinking man, we know what the other

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Gospels say there's a little bit more detail and so when you look at verses 9 through 20 you see kind of bits and pieces from the book of Acts and other parts of the gospel almost just to make a better ending here because all the

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Internal language is not marking. It just there's words that are used for the first time and but here's what

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I'm getting it When I'm debating a church of Christ because drew have you looked at the apologetic dog much on my channel?

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I've seen a cup. I've seen the interview with The other guy who does apologize with the glasses

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I've seen that interview that I've seen watch that in full watch both parts and then I've seen the cultures and then I went on Your channel and that's when

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I saw the set was new and then I saw Another video, but yeah, that was about it.

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I've only seen stuff related to church parts. So I do tons of debates Yeah, I think yeah that you yeah

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I can never make it through see debates They're like three hours long and I like my attention span after like 15 minutes

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It's like, okay I'm gonna have to sit down cuz I want I want to learn how to debate one day So like I have to sit down and watch one, but yeah, my attention span for those

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What I do this is a little bit of a hack in terms of my learning and things that I've kind of trained myself for Is everything on YouTube?

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I listen on times to speed. It's number one I have a program that reads documents and I listen and read at times six speed and Documents I do on times eight.

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So that's that's how I've been able to process a lot. I've been doing that for years So anyway, I'm just saying don't feel bad about the you know court attention span because debates are long -winded

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But the best part of debates are the cross -examination, you know kind of in the middle there

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But what I'm getting at is in debates I will not make a textual critical argument of saying the longer of ending of Mark is is more than likely not

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Inspired because you know, they'll they'll throw up their hands and say I see he's trying to take out passages scriptures that contradict his doctrine

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And I said I tell people even though it's not inspired. It's Historical meaning Jesus probably said these words

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It's not inspired and we have other extra biblical documents that give us a good history of what probably happened

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And so I'm just saying that's good for people who are sincere and want to learn like the longer ending of Mark Probably we should be asking the question

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How do we know what Mark wrote and when you study the the manuscript tradition? That the longer ending of Mark doesn't come to hundreds of years later

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Okay, so that's just first qualifier But let's meet the Church of Christ where they're at because like you're already pointing out there's enough context here to show us

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It's not baptism that declares us right before God right before we look at this verse more in -depth

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I want to encourage the audience There's a few definitions that if you can wrap your mind around these biblical terms

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They will help you with all the verses Old and New Testament. It's justification.

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Yes sanctification Faith and works now those those are the four definitions

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I would say if you understand how they relate and how they're distinguished you'll be able to put a spotlight on Romans or Mark 16 16 and you'll be able to kind of navigate and Talk about what's going on now

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There are two more definitions that we can continue to talk about but it's the word obey or obedience And it's actually the word baptize itself and what that means

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So when we look at Mark 16 16 you rightly pointed out there's two clauses Right and the first clause includes both believing in baptism whoever believes and is baptized

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Will be saved right cause and we look at the second clause and whoever does not believe will be condemned

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Right, the thing that condemns is unbelief, right? And when you look at any other gospel, especially

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John chapter 3 We understand that whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life

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But if you do not believe in the Son that you're condemned already, right? I mean and so when we go back to the first clause whoever believes and is baptized

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Baptism is indicative of what believers do it would be like saying whoever believes and goes to church will be saved

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Whoever believes and reads their Bible will be saved and we're saying yes, because that's what believers do and believers stand

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Unjustified before God by faith apart from works, right? So that's the whole book of Romans.

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That's Galatians Jesus even speaks about that clearly in Luke's account Old Testament makes that case

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I'm just saying when we look at this we can know whoever believes we already know that they're Justified before God if you could think justification

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So so salvation is a process right salvation is a process in this sense believers have been saved

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Justified are being saved sanctification and we will be saved by being glorified one day

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So whoever believes will be justified It's baptized. It's part of our sanctification and we will be saved in the future meaning one day

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We will be glorified right but and when people say well, how do you know that's talking about glorification?

31:33

I'd say we'll look at the second clause. Whoever does not believe will be right we're already condemned but there will be a final day in which we will all have to stand before the just judge because all the earth and Given account of our lives right and if you die in your sin, you'll be condemned in that sense, right?

31:52

So that's usually enough sauce if you will drew to get the church crossed off script to get to another proof text, right?

32:00

Okay, so and then there's another And I didn't get to search it before getting on here, but there's a scripture.

32:07

I believe it's in Ephesians I believe it's in a piece or five four four four verse five

32:15

Yeah, so one Lord one faith one baptism and Then you start then you flip somewhere else.

32:23

So yeah, I don't say you're talking to the poly Jack dog I I've had to I've had to memorize these verses.

32:29

In fact, I preached a whole sermon work. So we're preaching Expositionally through the book of Ephesians.

32:34

Okay at my church at 12 5 and I serve in a plurality Of elders me and two other gentlemen, and so we rotate preaching and when we got to Ephesians Chapter 4 the elders were like, all right,

32:47

Jeremiah's got verse 5 and I'm like, okay. Yeah, I'll do that So if you want I can kind of discuss the context of this or do you want to kind of talk about how this is?

32:56

Just kind of another verse in there Their script. Oh No, you can you can talk to context and then go into that We're I'm trying to grow my audience into more theological concept

33:08

So now go right ahead and explain it and then go into the Church of Christ concept after Something I want to encourage your audience and this goes for any doctrine this goes for you know doing apologetics and evangelism with any cult any group that raw rivals the knowledge of God and the gospel of grace is

33:26

We want to look at verses in context so that he supposes that we're being noble Bereans and we're not just learning

33:32

John 3 16 or a proof text over here and Acts 2 38 over there, but we're looking at surrounding context

33:39

He's teaching you guys he's teaching so context and another key thing that I've already been laying the groundwork for is we need to be equipped with definitions of terms and to be

33:52

Consistent right that right there when people go watch my debates I mean people that debate me should know exactly what's coming

33:59

But their script does not abide by those rules And so all I have to do is be sensitive to what they're gonna say and not all

34:07

Church of Christ or cut the same Meaning they don't all have the same script, but if we know the context really doesn't matter what their script is, right?

34:15

So Ephesians chapter 4 beautiful passage And so I'll back up to verse 1 because what

34:21

Paul is doing in the book of Ephesians is he's been giving rich Doctrine for three chapters

34:28

Ephesians 1 2 3 about the sovereign triune God who saved us by his amazing grace

34:33

The church is the manifold wisdom of God and the mystery of Christ is being revealed in Jew and Gentile, right?

34:40

Right, so really deep heavy awesome doctrine and then chapter 4 it switches to the therefore meaning

34:47

Imperatives commands of how Christians ought to live in unity as the bride of Christ.

34:52

I'm saying so that's that's important here So let's just kind of back up to verse 1 Paul says I therefore a prisoner of the

34:58

Lord urge you to walk So think sanctification, right? We're walking in a manner to give

35:04

God glory walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called with all humility Gentleness and patience bearing with one another in love eager to maintain unity of the

35:15

Spirit in the bond of peace Now here's where I want to pause This is where we see a little bit of shift in the context because now we're gonna read about these seven declarations of Unity that God is working in perfection

35:29

So the fact we're about to get a list of seven is kind of pointing us back to God of saying like God's doing an incredible work in salvation

35:37

Perfectly right in spite of our brokenness and sinfulness. So here's what I mean before there is one body, right?

35:44

There's one there's one ecclesia. There's one church that God is sanctifying and Building how he sees fit.

35:53

So I'm saying listen to the unity here one body one spirit Just as you were called into the one hope that belongs to your call one

36:01

Lord one faith one One God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all

36:08

I see What is the one baptism that works out perfect salvation and I would say it's not what's been disputed for 2 ,000 years that the ceremonial bath of Baptism that we participate in Right, and so I say it like that to let people know like you're you're working in baptism like you're participating

36:34

And then there's a baptizer who's also working too, and that's good for our Sanctification.

36:39

So no doubt the Ephesians would have had in the back of their mind When I hear a baptizo, they're thinking about their baptism

36:47

Here is talking about a perfect baptism that God is working and my point is

36:54

Baptism doesn't always mean a wet immersion, right? Just without preaching a whole sermon

37:01

In 1st Corinthians chapter 12 is the best place to go I think is verse 13 that there is the baptism of the

37:07

Spirit right that God is Regenerating hearts and bring and bringing people into the bride by the work of the

37:15

Spirit, right? The ceremony of baptism Signifies that reality that's already taken and inwardly, right, right.

37:23

All right, perfect explanation yeah, when you read that that's when it clicked because When I was read that it was just one

37:30

Lord one faith one baptism And he did not we did not go through the first four verses So when you read that just now that kind of makes it even more click like yeah,

37:39

I see what it's talking about I mean, I already knew that the baptism wasn't talking about water baptism I was talking about baptizing into the body of Christ.

37:46

But yeah, so that makes sense. Now, here's what they'll say Oh, so you believe in to baptism? It just says the one baptism and in the easy response is yes

37:55

Paul is talking about one baptism in this context But that doesn't mean that there is only one baptism in all of Scripture, especially the

38:02

New Testament You can be immersed into water You can be immersed into suffering and you can be immersed into one's authority

38:10

And then I'm just saying there's tons of examples to prove that and so when just someone says well, you're saying there's two baptisms

38:15

I'm saying no, there's more than two baptisms. There's more but Paul's talking about one in particular in this context, right?

38:22

So take me to the I think you said it's in Romans The the churches of Christ we got a look at this one

38:29

Romans 16 16. This one's actually fun on a number of levels and maybe

38:36

I'm just a glutton for punishment people like I was debating fun I'm like, I guess

38:41

That way I get a taste of it on tik -tok comment I'm like, I like it, but then

38:47

I have to pull myself out of it because it's gonna I'm like, okay You're not seeing it So I have to train

38:53

I'm training myself up to get to that one day of being able to actually do it But I do think it's fun like going like doing it like in the respectful way.

39:01

I do think and to I think it's kind of a defense mechanism because if you don't guard your heart and are

39:07

Having some fun to some degree I mean because number one you're gonna be grieved over these people and number two, you don't want to get mad

39:15

You don't want to play their game and so I do try to be light -hearted and when we've hit a brick wall and Someone's just mad like I'm not

39:23

I'm not trying to push their buttons Like I want them to see like I'm human and I do care about them at the end of the day

39:29

So I want us to be equipped rightly handling the word of truth But I encourage people like and show some love to people, you know,

39:36

I mean even in these in these tough conversations So Romans 16 16, so this is the full verse Greet one another with a holy kiss right and all the churches of Christ greet you

39:47

Yeah, and so when they say we're the churches of Christ what church what whatever denomination you are?

39:52

It's not it's not found in the Bible and I love those kind of objections because when I hold them to their own standard

39:58

They're gonna quickly crumble. Yeah, I mean because and so here's my point is I'm gonna say, okay

40:04

We have this, you know, the Bible says what it says and it means what it means Do y 'all I'm curious do y 'all greet one another with a holy kiss and they're gonna look at you like And I've heard some say yes, and you better you're going to hell and I'm like I'm just wondering if you're gonna be consistent because most would say oh, no

40:22

That's more cultural and I'm like, oh, you've already broken your standard right at that point. That's now.

40:27

Okay. That's a good tactic Okay, cool Well, so in apologetics if they're gonna hold you to a standard you want to put the shoe on the other foot at some point?

40:35

And say, you know, are you having a double standard where you're not even living up to your own criteria? So I'm just saying that's a good thing to be thinking about.

40:43

Yeah, number two all the churches of Christ greet you So the word church is a clay

40:49

SIA That has a definition that we're gonna be consistent with and a clay see it means to be called out

40:56

Right The called -out ones you can't just assume without demonstrating why you think you're the called -out ones, right?

41:05

I can prove biblically the called -out ones are those called out by grace through faith

41:11

Apart from their works. That's the echelon SIA, right? This is not saying if you don't have the the name

41:18

Church of Christ on your sign out front Then you're not the one true church. That's not what that's saying. This is talking about the nature of The the church which belongs to Christ and so for them just saying we're the

41:30

Church of Christ right there I'm like, oh, so you're begging the question, right? You can you just because I can just say oh, I'm the

41:35

Church of Christ, right? Yeah, of course. I'm just saying You got to be able to demonstrate your case

41:40

And so the Church of Christ they they do that constantly that they beg the question meaning

41:46

They're just going to say it says what it says and it means what it means and I'm like, oh So you can't interpret the text right and draw application

41:53

All you can do is quote it like anyone else can and not pay careful attention to the shouting context

41:59

So anyway, my point is the the whole question in focus here is who are the called -out ones, right?

42:07

right I would say it's impossible for the Church of Christ to be the called -out ones because they've imported works to the gospel of grace

42:14

Mm -hmm, and you had mentioned on another program I Forget this guy's name

42:23

But you had mentioned you said so la scriptura and then you said so low scriptura

42:28

Did you kind of talk about how you said that Church of Christ is more solo scriptura? Can you kind of break that down for me?

42:34

No This is a great great point because so la scriptura once again is a battle cry of the

42:39

Reformation refuting Roman Catholics that say not scripture alone, but scripture plus the magisterium and Tradition they're the three legs of a stool that have equal authority

42:50

But that's code for you need the Roman Catholic Church to properly interpret scripture And they're really so la ecclesia church alone.

42:58

And so so la scriptura says the scriptures are the ultimate Foundation, they're the the sole infallible rule of faith and practice.

43:08

So that means Yes, we can look to other standards other rules. We can look to creeds and confessions not as ultimate

43:15

But as a legitimate rule in our life But what's ultimate is that which is they honest us that which is

43:23

God breathed that which has been revealed to us in God's Holy Word, right? And so my point is so la scriptura says, of course, we're going to explore the great depth of church history

43:34

The Saints that have come before us that have been indwelt by the Spirit have labored in preaching and teaching and writing commentary

43:42

But we're gonna be noble Bereans and test everything that they write with that Which is

43:48

God's Word and hold fast to that which is good, right? So that's what so la scriptura means is yes, we can look to other authorities

43:55

But recognizing at the end the day those authorities authorities bow to the knee of scripture. So scriptura is

44:02

Is not a historic mindset. It says it does not matter What has happened in between the book of Acts and now everything is dead in between Does not matter and the cults wants you to think this way is because they don't want you to explore into the restorations movement

44:19

With Alexander Campbell, but so low scriptura. We kind of in a pejorative sense say

44:25

Oh, so it's my Bible and me under a tree no creed But Christ and the

44:30

Church Christ meant to such a degree as they don't even have the spirit right in dwelling them Now they'll say the scripture is inspired by the

44:38

Spirit and that's all they mean by they have the spirit They just mean the written word ink So So low scriptura basically says no commentary.

44:50

No looking into the the lexical meaning I mean, it's easy to be like so are you telling me the Apostle Paul wrote in a lot of Church Christ or King James?

44:58

Not maybe only but some of the how the King James Renders kind of seems to support some of their views if we go to first Peter chapter 3 here in a moment

45:07

I'll show you. Yep, but the whole point is no we have a historic faith and they're saying nope

45:13

The the Bible alone is sufficient. And so that's the distinction. We're saying you got a solo

45:19

Scriptura meaning a Bible and me no creed, but Christ which is a creed by the way, so that's so Yeah, and then you have the rich history of saying look

45:28

We know the gospel has always existed since the time of the Apostles because the promises that Jesus himself made

45:35

So that does that make sense? That makes a lot of sense So the next scripture is probably hey, can

45:42

I tell you something else funny real quick? Yeah, go ahead. So when they say Romans 16 16 is their verse what what church are you

45:49

Jeremiah find the Bible? I'm like, oh just go a few chapters earlier to Romans 12 verse 5 because that's where Romans or that's where 12 -5 church comes from this.

45:57

Yeah, and they're like And they kind of look at me mean face Again, we we fit that criteria.

46:03

We're yeah, we're earlier in the book of Romans. Yeah All right, so another scripture is probably the most famous The most famous of them all that I can't wait to hear how

46:23

You how you refuted it and how you talk about because in reading it just the chapter over I have it like start in my

46:31

Bible that refutes the I'm like I have it circled because I'm like that kind of refutes if it was just baptism, you know

46:47

But X 238, how did I know? And You know, what's the shame is this is such a beautiful verse and so to have it twisted

46:58

Breaks my heart and I hope I don't offend audience and and everything like this, but like, you know

47:04

Pentecostals that deny the Trinity Saying they take X to and twist it into something totally different and I'm just saying man

47:11

This is where context is King King, right? You know, I mean So X 238 just says on the surface, you know

47:19

Peter said to them so there is a context there But we'll just read it at face value Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins

47:30

And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, right? and so depending on the level of sophistication with the

47:37

Church Christ that will say see repent and Be baptized Jeremiah apologetic God or dating conjunction.

47:43

You can't have one without the other, right? Yep, you're right. And I'm saying but what does that mean?

47:49

Because we know that Peter is not conflating faith and works So I'm already starting to say okay, there's bigger issues going on is how do we understand for one we need to Understand this verse and there's actually going to be some interpreting just within that verse by itself

48:05

Mm -hmm. So another helpful term at this point in the conversation would be understanding the word baptize.

48:13

Okay You have a few different words that are really close. They're meaning baptize ma baptize.

48:19

Oh and baptize moss There's kind of a shared to immerse it's kind of the the bare understanding of To dip right right, but baptize.

48:31

Oh in a context that is talking about Water baptism the fuller definition is a ceremonial right that signifies a

48:44

Relationship with God now, where am I getting that definition? I'm not pulling it from Webster's dictionary 21st century

48:51

I'm saying you have to be true to a necessary hermeneutic called the grammatical historical method of interpretation

48:59

Have you ever heard of that before true? No, I haven't. Okay, so it's not complicated just to say the grammatical historical meaning words have

49:07

Context but words have meaning in the context in which they were intended to be like, okay

49:13

Yeah We're using words that we're picking up or each other are thrown down because of the the cultural context in which we live

49:20

My point is we have to appeal to the Greek, right? Right the English translations do a fantastic job

49:27

Yeah, sometimes there's not as precision carried over in the English as there is in the

49:33

Greek We have to interpret the word Baptized.

49:38

What does that mean? And it's funny because we can go back to John the Baptist and there's a whole

49:44

Old Testament background of Mikvah's being bathed bodily and these are bad baptisms that Is I'm just saying

49:53

Christian baptism Even though Christian baptism is distinct. There's a history of baptisms throughout the scriptures that come before and the point is is it's a ceremony and that this is this is the this is so key drew if I can just emphasize this to your people a

50:09

Ceremony is a work that you participate in by definition

50:15

Okay. Now this is irrefutable because when we start defining the word works in the

50:20

Greek it's Ergon or gods of my if you're looking at it in verb form and Works is activity of any kind deed or action and I tell people that's

50:32

Everything that we get up and do whether we're trying to earn something or we're just going about our everyday life

50:39

Just right and there's a lot of other verses to kind of you know, illustrate that but that's that's the definition

50:44

And so what Church of Christ are trying to try to do now is they're saying well some works Bring us to heaven and some works don't bring us to heaven essential or save us and so I'm saying those are the deeper conversations

50:56

Because when you really press for consistency on terms Works are all encompassing everything that you get up and do and you participate in like a ceremony

51:07

Okay, does that kind of make sense? Real similar to what we did with Mark 16 16 if we're equipped with justification and sanctification faith and works then we can know how the coordinating conjunction is being used here just saying the word and repent which

51:26

Biblical repentance always assumes faith They are two sides of the same coin as we're gonna look at in Acts chapter 3 in a minute

51:32

We're gonna see faith and repentance go hand in hand, right? I mean and so faith repentant faith is inward and of the heart

51:42

Mean, it's pistis firm trust Hebrews 11 1 now faith is assurance

51:48

Assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen assurance firm trust

51:54

Conviction is a heart change that produces an outward change of right, you know,

52:00

I mean, but right it's faith internal repentant faith internal works

52:05

Outward that's the best category distinctions to have with faith and works. So when we're looking at Peter's saying repent and be baptized.

52:14

He's saying repent right put your faith in King Jesus whom you crucified and you'll be justified and Demonstrate that faith right straight that faith in works of obedience and so this would be a call to Sanctification be justified and then demonstrate that that justified saving faith in works

52:37

So you're saying the in this verse he is kind of like a call to action Saying saying you repented or repent and then once you repent, yeah go and be baptized

52:48

So yeah, okay. So kind of action. Yeah, because even though Justification and sanctification can't be separated.

52:57

They must be distinguished Justification is that moment where a person is declared righteous before God Almighty By faith apart from works

53:07

So right you're familiar with this But like 1st Corinthians 521 the father made

53:13

Jesus who knew no sin to be sin So that we might become the righteousness of God And so this is the core of the gospel when you put your faith alone not trusting yourself

53:24

But looking to Jesus trusting in him for salvation Then all of your sins past present and future all of your sins

53:32

I tell the students 12 5 go back in time and get placed on Calvary Jesus pays for all of your sins on the cross and it gets better because that it just doesn't stop there in Exchange you get the perfect righteousness of Jesus his perfect obedience covering your account and so you're

53:50

Justified just as if I never sinned and your justification is by faith What kind of faith is that faith or what kind of faith?

53:58

Is it a repentant faith meaning the one of a change of mind, right? and so then it's that call to action, which is sanctification obedient works to the glory of God like Essentially Ephesians 2 10 goes on to say we're created unto good works to give

54:15

God glory and to show a new Transform life before the watching world, right?

54:21

So a point is of course coordinating conjunction It's like saying be justified and be sanctified.

54:27

You know, I mean, so I'm sorry if I get a little preachy now, you're good I love it. I like I like I like to learn more so you teach me so Perfect.

54:37

Yes So here's where I will actually check the Church of Christ on the next Thing that they have to interpret because I don't think they're gonna be consistent

54:45

So it says repent and be baptized every one of you. This is key in the name of Jesus Christ So I asked them so when you are interacting with the baptism, do you baptize in the name of Jesus Christ or?

55:00

Holy Spirit father son, the Holy Spirit because Try to interpret it to say well in the name of Jesus means his authority

55:09

And then we go back to the Great Commission and the authority of how he commanded. I'm saying oh great So you actually don't baptize the name of Jesus Christ.

55:15

You have to interpret that verse So don't be mad at me when I'm interpreting repent and be baptized every one of you

55:21

So I'm just saying and if they better baptize the name of Jesus I'm like, oh, would you forget about the Great Commission and the triune name of God?

55:30

Okay, so now you blown the whole case water, but so now okay, so now now my brain is cooking

55:35

Okay So now to take it a step further when you when somebody sees that scripture and it says

55:42

I'll be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ we could look at it like no, it's not talking about baptism with water

55:49

We could say no This is baptizing into the body of Christ, right, but not immersion by water, but by spirit

55:56

So that is actually one valid interpretation that church history has had is maybe this is talking about baptism the spirit

56:04

So I actually do think this is talking about water baptism But I'm saying that water baptism is meant for your sanctification right your justification

56:12

Okay, and am I raising this point is checking them on their own standards, right?

56:18

Because oh Christ are gonna come in and say it says what it says and means what it means

56:24

Must I repent and be baptized in order to be saved? Yes or no, right?

56:29

I'm over here saying well I agree with the verse says But we better be able to interpret and examine context and I don't want to do that You know,

56:38

I mean because the way we interpret repent means a repentant faith that justifies us when you're looking to Jesus in faith

56:45

And then the call to action is one of obedience in sanctification and my point is when you have such a literal

56:53

Interpretation. It says what it says it means what it means I'm saying I have a question for the Church of Christ to challenge them on their own standards

57:01

Which is do you baptize in the name of Jesus Christ or do you baptize in the triune name?

57:08

Because they're on the horns of a dilemma if they baptize in the name of Jesus Christ because I'm gonna say

57:14

Oh, well, then you just went against the Great Commission Or if they interpret this to say well, this is in the authority of Jesus Which he told us to baptize in the triune name.

57:24

I'm saying great so you do have to interpret the text not just read it wouldn't lean say it says what it says and it means what it

57:31

Means and I'm just doing the Bible says and you're not does that does that kind of make sense? But you have to that makes sense

57:37

You need to go down that route just basically putting the shoe on the other foot with the Church Christ And so it keeps going baby if we can keep camping on this earth and in my channel

57:47

I teach this first kind of first Because once you have a grasp a good grasp of this verse it helps you kind of with all the other ones

57:55

You know, I mean because I'm already bringing up justification sanctification faith works run the word baptism and of course,

58:02

I'm gonna use the word obey or obedience because That's what the Church of Christ are thinking about obey obey obey obey, right?

58:09

We're saying obey is a great word. We find it in Scripture But what do you mean by obey because they only think in works categories and we're saying obey the will of God Faith in Jesus and guess what?

58:22

That's not a work that we do So second half of this verse says for the forgiveness of your sins.

58:28

So this is the huge debate, right? what does this mean and We know we already know if we're acquainted with other scripture that this doesn't mean that my participation in a ceremony

58:39

Bath is the mechanism that causes my sins to be washed away

58:45

We know that by other clear scriptures like in Romans 4 4 through verse 5

58:52

That basically says to the one who works he deserves a wage, right?

58:57

But to the one who doesn't work but believes in the finished righteousness of Jesus Christ. That's the basis in which

59:04

Righteousness is a credit to his account. So yeah So what am I one of my questions at this point to a church

59:10

Christ that that we have to interpret what this means You can't just beg the question.

59:15

I asked the question I do this in debates and I love seeing the the wheels turn as I say when you get baptized

59:22

Are you trying to get anything in exchange for your baptism? They hate how

59:27

I phrase that question because they're hung they are trying to receive Forgiveness of sins by their participation baptism.

59:36

I'm like, oh, that's the very thing that Paul tells us. That is a sham It's no longer of grace, but you're earning a wage

59:42

You're literally trying to merit something and put God in debt and that ain't good.

59:47

Yeah, so my point is We can just say we know what it's not Clearly, so what does for the forgiveness of your sins mean?

59:57

I'm gonna give you one valid interpretation that I actually don't hold to For could mean at right

01:00:04

Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ at the forgiveness of your sins This is a reference

01:00:12

Strongly pointing back to Calvary at the finished work of what Jesus did and to me that that is a fair and solid

01:00:19

Look of this verse But it's the finer Context of why I don't think we even have to make that point to try to because the church

01:00:26

Christ hate it when we're saying What says for and you just have to change it? Well for just simply means unto and so once again, you have to demonstrate from the context unto what?

01:00:36

Unto could be pointing forward or it could be pointing backwards and I do think for the forgiveness of your sins already presupposes

01:00:44

Peter doing this pointing back to Calvary's Hill saying right or had this in the Forefront of your heart if you are gonna have forgiveness applied to your account.

01:00:53

So here's here's a technical Argument in the context, but it relates exactly to what you brought up a moment ago so for the forgiveness of sins when you go back to the word repent, this is in the second person plural

01:01:08

I think and Repent is connected with the forgiveness of your sins, which is also in the second person plural

01:01:18

Okay I'm pretty sure I'm getting degree point is when you examine the

01:01:23

Greek you can see that repentance is Directly linked to the forgiveness of your sins Baptism is in the third person singular and so the the other two that are connected second person plural and then baptism is in the third person singular

01:01:38

Meaning we understand repent for the forgiveness of your sins and let every one of you be baptized like that's that's the meaning and they hate it when you actually parse the

01:01:48

Greek out to say this is what we're talking about and I do what you did a second ago. I Point out.

01:01:54

Well Peter's not going to contradict his first sermon with his second sermon because when we do and actually

01:02:01

I want to come back to verse 39 that that's really important to verse 38 when we look at Acts chapter 3 we can start kind of up in verse 15, you know, yeah

01:02:11

Peter's I got 19 circled as I'm like it says this so it doesn't say that in there

01:02:18

Four or five years ago I had a circle So a little bit above 19 really helps our case.

01:02:24

So if we look kind of starting in verse 15 Well verse 14, but you denied the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you

01:02:33

So Peter's preaching the gospel here and you killed the author of life whom God raised from the dead to this

01:02:38

We are witnesses and here's the key and his name. Yeah, I faith in We're holding on to the word faith

01:02:46

Right, and we know the backside of faith is always repentance and then repentance is always backside of faith

01:02:52

And then like you said verse 19 repent therefore and turn back that your sins

01:02:58

May be blotted out Repentant faith is always the mechanism that justifies

01:03:04

Declares us right before God. So that is a faith a repentant faith apart from works

01:03:10

That's what we mean by faith alone because a justified faith is never alone meaning it always produces works so before we we kind of You know keep going on to saying there's so much context here because if we go back to Acts chapter 2

01:03:23

The audience is a Jewish audience. And so the reason why Peter is is called the call to action for sanctification to truly count the cost of Falling after Jesus the reason why he brings up baptism is because for a

01:03:39

Jew that literally partook in the crucifixion of Jesus the which he kind of that's why they were cut to the heart which is already

01:03:46

Evidence that the Spirit was at work in their home This this meant that a

01:03:51

Jew would have to leave their their second temple Judaism in order to become a Christian So basically he's saying you need to repent might be declared right before God But demonstrate it with the number one thing that would demonstrate to the watching world that you are truly a follower of Jesus All right, does that make sense?

01:04:09

I mean so and so verse 39 And this is a promise for you and for your children for all who are fall far off Everyone whom the

01:04:18

Lord our God calls to himself It's the work of God to the Jew first Also the

01:04:25

Gentiles those who are fall far off and so I'm just saying we're seeing this starting with the Jews here at Pentecost and we know

01:04:31

Peter and Paul the rest of the book of Acts are about to take this to the Gentile world and so Before we

01:04:38

I know I'm giving you a lot. So hopefully I love our audience can Acts was written by the same author as Luke in his gospel, right?

01:04:49

Right. And so in Luke chapter 24 For what we're let's see here 24

01:04:58

Verse 47 where Jesus is Expositing the the whole

01:05:05

Tanakh the whole Hebrew scriptures of saying it all points to me, baby And then he says in verse 47 and that repentance and the forgiveness of sins

01:05:15

Will be proclaimed. So all my point is is all throughout Luke's gospel It's repentance that's linked to the forgiveness of sins

01:05:23

The backside of repentance is always faith. And so in Acts, it's the same even though we see baptism

01:05:29

It's the same connection of repentance and or faith with forgiveness of sins

01:05:35

And so when we get to the first Gentile audience in Acts chapter 10, and I'll stop my my rampage here

01:05:44

You see my point though with Church Christ context kills yes, because I was gonna ask

01:05:49

I was gonna say I'm like So because you kind of basically took us on a crash course of how you break these scriptures down And you're using other scriptures are using hermeneutics.

01:05:57

You're using Greek and Hebrew texts. You're using Definitions using all these different things and I have to assume that they're probably not doing those same things

01:06:05

They're probably just taking the phrase value. They can't do that And like you're saying they have about six or seven proof text and that's their script

01:06:14

They're hoping to trip up, you know

01:06:19

We talked about how some people, you know join the Church Christ Well out of ignorance, right? Because they have a very simple method meant to appeal to the simple minded and on one hand

01:06:30

The gospel is simple look to Jesus in faith. I mean, that's that's the gospel in a nutshell They're actually adding to that but they try to do it in just such a fashion where they're going to have

01:06:41

You know, you know almost hostile Hostile Firm, I'm trying to I'm trying to be charitable here, but they're gonna really grill you and so I'm just saying you'll almost be like Oh, yeah

01:06:52

Well, they must know more than me until you know the broader context and so my point is Peter preaches another sermon to the

01:06:59

Gentile audience and right at the end Acts chapter 10 verse 43 to him talking about Jesus all the prophets bear witness that everyone who is baptized

01:07:10

Oh Who believes in him check this out receives right remember talking about for the forgiveness of sin

01:07:19

It says for me. Yeah. Well, it goes into receive the Holy Spirit I'm saying there's a very specific word for the the word receives and it's not back in Acts 2 38

01:07:29

It says for the forgiveness of sin so you have to build a case for the word for or unto and I'm saying here they're trying to make the word for To receive so I'm saying there's a word for that and we get it right here that by believing in Jesus That is how you receive

01:07:46

Forgiveness of your sins through his right so I can keep going In the book of Acts, but that's how

01:07:52

I would just try to start expanding the context of Acts 2 30, right? I'd preach at him.

01:07:58

Yeah. Yeah, cuz that's so so what we're seeing here guys is we're basically saying when you're when you're

01:08:05

Interacting with these individuals They can't use the they can't use

01:08:12

Greek Hebrew all these different things and what Jeremiah's doing is basically giving you guys a crash course of like, okay

01:08:17

Go here you go here. You go to Greek you go to Hebrew go to context context is King What is this word saying?

01:08:24

What is that word saying and like I have part of pointed out in Acts 2 38 where I said, oh it says Jesus Christ Oh baptism father son

01:08:32

Holy Spirit like that could trip them up too. So all these different things You have them on the horns of a dilemma there because they're gonna have to interpret and you're saying great

01:08:40

That's what we should be doing. Anyway, so let me write you to interpret and if they don't like your interpretation Then just ask them how they interpret that because yeah, they're not interpreting it

01:08:49

Then they're actually gonna put X 238 against their Great Commission. Yeah, that's really good

01:08:56

For the sake of time you got one more in you for sake of time. I have a lot of time So honestly,

01:09:02

I'm here as long as you want. Okay, so I got one more one more. I know that's a heavy proof takes first Peter 3 21

01:09:10

Yes, I want to say there's First Peter 3 21 is heavy, but I don't know if you've come across acts 22 16.

01:09:18

That's another bullet in the chamber and if you want we can look at that before we go to first Peter 3 21 because since we're already in the book of Acts and I have a short story with this one because my interactions over the past decade with Church Christ This was the this was the one that tripped me up more than acts 238 believe it or not

01:09:36

So it's okay if we do that one first, you know, mm -hmm So acts 22 16 the only reason

01:09:42

I want to bring this up is so for your audience This this one will come out of left field if you're not prepared and I remember

01:09:50

I'm Sharing the gospel with my boss at work Church Christ and his response was what do you think

01:09:57

Jeremiah about me getting my elders and all of us meeting for coffee and you Talking with them. I'm great. I mean, this is this is pre -apologetic dog days

01:10:04

So I just I wasn't acquainted by I'm over here. Like I got the Word of God That's the power of the gospel power of God into salvation.

01:10:11

So, you know, whoever wants to talk about the scripture. Let's do it So I remember in these conversations, you know really emphasizing, you know

01:10:20

What saving faith looks like and you could tell they want to affirm that but they have a five -step formula, right?

01:10:25

We got to hear the word you got to believe get a repent. You got to confess you got to be baptized And oh, you got to be a part of the right church.

01:10:31

They don't tell you about step number six Yeah, and so in that Remember, yeah

01:10:37

And so I remember that or interaction they brought up acts 22 16 And I thought oh man, like I don't know the context right and so that's why

01:10:46

I want to address this one because this one Is a this one will catch you off guard, but we love all of God's Word So I don't want to pretend like this is one we should shy away from saying hey

01:10:56

This is actually beautiful and when we do understands context I would say interact with the Church Christ go here before they do that'll really throw them off script

01:11:05

So so if this is kind of new to you, let me just read it to you and you tell me your first thoughts

01:11:12

And now why do you wait? So someone's talking to someone here right rise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on his name.

01:11:22

Hmm So what are your first thoughts? First thoughts read this before and this out of context is crazy

01:11:31

Out of context it's crazy. It's like wait a second But first thing I would see if I'm if I hear it,

01:11:39

I'm like, okay Why I see what you're saying, but if I see I see that comma at least a new key

01:11:44

James version I see that comma and I'm like, okay So that separates that and then it says and wash away your sins calling on the

01:11:50

Lord So first thing I say is like, okay, there's a comma Let's talk about that comma that rise and be baptized

01:11:57

I think that separates that and then I'd say okay wash away your sins So I'd look at that comma first thing first if somebody somebody from church guys are telling me

01:12:06

I'm like, okay What's up with that comma? That's for sure. That's it. No that that's awesome So the context is

01:12:14

The Apostle Paul he's kind of solid Tarsus here in Acts for a lot, but he's retelling his conversion

01:12:20

So this is a retelling of Acts chapter 9 and so it's Ananias that's speaking

01:12:25

It's the guy that the Lord had to like give him a revelation of saying hey Solve Tarsus you got to trust me on this thing

01:12:33

He's a chosen vessel of mine and and nice is kind of like are you sure Lord? He's like, it's okay because solve

01:12:41

Tarsus killing Christians, you know, I mean, right? Yeah, so Paul is retelling his conversion account

01:12:47

That's just that's important here in a minute as we talk about why Ananias says it like he does He is talking to the

01:12:53

Apostle Paul after he comes back from his Damascus Road experience and Ananias says

01:12:58

Basically to Paul now, why do you wait rise and be baptized and wash away your sins comma?

01:13:06

Calling on his name now You're right to point out the comma because it's the comma and the phrase that comes after it that qualifies

01:13:12

Wash away your sins, right? So I point out immediately Okay, how would the

01:13:18

Apostle Paul? Explain this right because it's being said to him. Okay, so I just I throw that out there to say

01:13:24

This is the book of Acts. It's a narrative. And so we have to interpret it as a Narratival book meaning that not everything you read in Acts you immediately

01:13:34

Try to implement in your life. I'm just saying you got Apostles doing the miraculous you have these

01:13:40

Pentecostal experiences And I would just tell people like this is unique in church history right as the foundation of the

01:13:48

New Testament Ecclesia, right? Right. So one hermeneutical principle, you know, we talked about the grammatical historical earlier.

01:13:55

Here's another principle We interpret the narrative books. We're like the Gospels and Acts We interpret those books in light of the epistles which are clear didactic books to the church

01:14:06

After the foundation does that make sense? I make sense. And so my point is Did Paul at anywhere in his writings tell us what it means to call upon the name of the

01:14:17

Lord the answer is yes But to have your sins washed away means to call upon the name of the

01:14:23

Lord, right? And that's important to emphasize in that verse, right? So he is calling him to be baptized and he is he basically proclaiming the gospel to him saying

01:14:34

Have your sins washed away by calling upon his name Which I would say this every biblical baptism, that's what the baptizer always does is contextualizes

01:14:44

What's going on in their midst basically proclaims the gospel even asked that person.

01:14:50

That's you know already doing Saying how do you affirm these things? Do you write are you trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation?

01:14:58

And they usually say yes, absolutely something even though the one baptizing them already knows that they believe them

01:15:06

But it's a part of declaring the gospel So I'm saying Ananias is being faithful to the

01:15:13

Great Commission here, right? So when I ask the question, well, how would have how would Paul Understand calling on his name because that's key.

01:15:22

That's what he would have heard right in Romans chapter 10 This is where he gives us a crash course and like I remember the hermeneutical principle we interpret the book of Acts in light of the

01:15:34

Epistles the epistles give us clear didactic teachings. This is that same rule you mentioned scripture interpret scripture

01:15:42

But you don't interpret the epistles Yep, I made a weird face so You don't interpret the epistles in light of the book of Acts you've got you've got it backwards

01:15:59

Does that make sense? Well, that's an important rule that I'm bringing up. So in Romans chapter 10 Kind of starting in verse 9

01:16:08

Because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart and that God raised him from the dead

01:16:14

You will be saved. We got to keep reading He says for with the heart one believes and is justified and with the mouth one confesses and is

01:16:25

Saved according to the Old Testament Scripture says everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame

01:16:30

There's no distinction between Jew and Greek For the same Lord is Lord of all bestowing his riches on all who call on him

01:16:38

And this is the last verse from everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

01:16:43

And so what I want to emphasize is back in verse 10 9 and 10

01:16:48

Confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord that he resurrected from the from the grave

01:16:55

You will be saved Confessing him as Lord now the Church Christ that they're aware of our works argument towards them

01:17:04

They will say oh, well, does that mean you got to pray the right prayer and you got to do a certain type of work?

01:17:10

I would say that's not what confessing means confessing literally means a heart of Worship now if the heart is worshiping then it's going to manifest with words of the mouth of praise

01:17:23

Merely saying words it necessarily means a heart that is worshiping right and getting back to that heart that heart of faith

01:17:31

Which that's what he says in verse 10 for with the heart One believes and then from a human perspective because we can't see another person's heart if they have a heart that's worshiping

01:17:41

God in faith well, they're going to Confess with the mouth, right? For the one with what the mouth one confesses is saved and so what

01:17:52

Paul is driving it is Fundamentally, it's the heart the heart of faith in King Jesus a heart of faith not your works trusting in the finished work of Christ that is present tense how one is

01:18:04

Justified right. Okay, so That's important right as we go back to acts 22 16 now

01:18:11

Here's here's the stinger question. That'll be hard for Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox Anglicans and then especially the church you ready?

01:18:21

Yeah, I asked the question. I do this all the time in debate cross -examination. I Say when was the first time that?

01:18:28

Paul called upon the name of the Lord and they're usually before I even get done asking the question They say acts 22 16 because it's so drilled in their mind, right?

01:18:37

I'm like, oh Let's go a little bit earlier up in the context that might help us out with this question

01:18:42

Because remember to call upon the name of the risen Lord You're justified right just as if you've never sinned and that's where your sins are washed away

01:18:50

And right in baptism is a sign that signifies that already established relationship with God Right.

01:18:58

So if we go back up to verse 8 So once again, Paul is discussing his of his conversion account

01:19:05

So he's speaking now in the the first person Let's see. So Jesus appears to him and says

01:19:10

Saul Saul. Why are you persecuting me? Does the name the King James you said you have a new

01:19:17

King James? Why does well, why does thou persecute or kick against the goats? I can't remember how they kick against the goals.

01:19:23

Yeah So verse 9 and I answered this is interesting who are you

01:19:30

Lord curious, which is the divine name and I want to pause Paul doesn't understand yet that this is

01:19:37

Jesus. He just knows the Shekinah glory of God Knocked him off his donkey and he is talking to the

01:19:44

Lord and he says who are you? He knows that it's the Lord but who are you in a person way and this is so important and he said to me

01:19:52

I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting now the reason why this is so important because Jesus was crucified

01:20:01

Paul had a helping hand in that no doubt or at least was present for the crucifixion of Jesus He definitely was there for the stoning of Stephen who confessed.

01:20:09

Jesus is the risen Lord, right? So the fact that Jesus identifies himself as the divine name curious

01:20:15

Jesus of Nazareth Remember what Romans chapter 10 says if you confess that Jesus is

01:20:21

Lord and that God Raised him from the dead. We're saved. And so when you look at verse 10, this is that Confessing Jesus is

01:20:30

Lord. He says he said I said, what shall I do? Lord curious the divine name.

01:20:36

So my point is Paul confessed Jesus is Lord. He had his faith He in faith is saying what would you have me to do?

01:20:44

You were Yahweh You were the divine name and so that that's when the Apostle Paul was saved by amazing grace

01:20:51

His works in King Jesus Galatians chapter 1 even tells us he did not receive the gospel from man

01:20:59

Which oh, I thought I thought a nice was preaching the gospel Well, he was but he already received the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation on the

01:21:07

Damascus Road apples Now that that's a good not a workaround, but I see how you

01:21:15

I see how you did That makes a lot of sense I see what you did there.

01:21:20

That makes a lot of sense. Okay. All right All right. I hope you guys are doing this.

01:21:25

He's giving us a crash course on apologetics on breaking down these scriptures and Going behind the scenes pulling back the layers.

01:21:34

That's what I love about it. So that's why I'm like, oh, yeah Keep going because I'm like I love like okay learning something new or seeing the scripture in a different light that I didn't see before and then seeing okay when

01:21:45

I Interact with whomever Okay, you see you see this you see that so you're pulling back different layers.

01:21:51

I love that awesome We still have time for a first Peter 3. Yeah first Peter 3 and then

01:21:57

I'm gonna get you out of here. So first Peter 321 Yes now

01:22:03

If you don't mind, I would like for you to read this in the New King James because I'm about to show how

01:22:09

Translations matter even though there's nothing mystical One translation over another but I'm just saying

01:22:16

I want us to be equipped. The Bible was not written in English How do we adjudicate

01:22:23

Certain really good English translations right going back to the Greek and that's not a bad thing, right?

01:22:29

And it's not a bad thing. Oh, that's fine curse people do I always tell people like when we're studying or doing things always a lot even in my own say time type in whatever

01:22:37

The service is and then type in Greek interlinear and it or Hebrew interlinear you're able to see

01:22:45

The Hebrew or the Greek flat -out you ever click that word and be able to see it and it opens up a whole new world

01:22:53

Starting verse 20 so 20 and 21 together So it says who formerly were disobedient when once the divine long -suffering

01:23:03

Awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight souls were saved through water

01:23:10

There is also an antitype which now saves us baptism Not the removal of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

01:23:24

Yes. Thank you So the reason I wanted you to read the New King James is back in verse 20

01:23:29

You know says the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight persons eight souls now check out what the

01:23:36

ESV says We're brought safely through water You're said

01:23:41

And they were saved by water Yeah Okay We're saved through water.

01:23:48

Yeah, right water. Yeah. Okay. So yours says was saved through water Yeah, I think the

01:23:54

King James might say saved by water and the ESV says they were brought safely

01:24:01

Through water. So no, I'm making a stink about this because they'll take that King James version and run with it

01:24:07

That's what exactly and if we have in the back of our mind Genesis chapter 6 I asked people did the water save anyone or did it condemn the entire world minus eight people?

01:24:18

And so the point is the water The the waters of the flood was not salvific.

01:24:25

It brought judgment, right? Try to make the argument

01:24:31

Yeah, but it played a part in saving Noah and his family. I'm like It sounds like they were saved in the ark.

01:24:39

They were saved from the waters of baptism So right when when we before we even get to verse 21 with baptism

01:24:47

We really need to camp out in verse 20 And I say there's kind of three major points to have in mind the ark the eight persons in the water

01:24:55

Right because it's the ark that is salvific that God uses a means to save them

01:25:00

And Noah and his family were not saved by the water They were saved in spite of the water or I like how the

01:25:09

ESV reads it were brought safely Through the water I liked it and so now we have the right backdrop to draw this

01:25:18

Antitype or what is salvific that's about to be applied in a type of baptism, right?

01:25:25

So when we read verse 21 baptism, I already pause and say there's a semantic domain there

01:25:31

There's many definitions to the word baptized baptized. So baptized mosque meaning you can be so it just means to be immersed

01:25:37

Question is Immersed into what context right? Is it immersed into water a wet immersion?

01:25:44

Is it immersed into a context of suffering or into one's authority? That's kind of the usage that we see for the word baptized

01:25:52

So I'm just saying well, it's gonna tell us how to understand baptism right as you probably already know

01:25:59

Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you. Okay, there is a baptism.

01:26:05

That is salvific, right? Establish that in Ephesians 4 5 I would say it's baptism of the

01:26:11

Spirit something that God is working perfectly in The church the bride right? So we have a context here

01:26:17

There is a baptism that corresponds to what we just read and it's gonna reflect the ark Not the waters of judgment is what

01:26:24

I encourage people in the context And then he says this not a removal of dirt from the body

01:26:31

Peter could not be more clear of saying it's not a Ceremonial bath that saves you get that in your mind about the only thing that a ceremonial bath could accomplish is if you have a little dirt right, don't get it twisted is

01:26:46

Water baptism ceremonial baptism important. Absolutely. We were commanded to for our sanctification

01:26:51

Right, but in order to be declared right justified before God That's my faith in baptism is an act of faith or a work of faith

01:27:01

Okay, so I'm just saying we got to pay careful attention to context, but God's Word never returns void

01:27:08

It's gonna you know sanctify our hearts and minds Baptism which corresponds to the ark that's salvific now saves you

01:27:15

Don't don't have the ceremonial bath in in your mind but that which is an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ So a couple more things the the baptism that now saves you is an appeal to a good conscience in the ark of Jesus Christ that's what's going to save you on the day of judgment now

01:27:39

Check this out. This maybe is something that I would love to know if this is the first time you heard it

01:27:44

It's something to consider. I always ask the question. What does it mean to have a good conscience? Okay, because it's kind of important in the context

01:27:51

Well surprise surprise Peter tells us earlier in this chapter if you go back to verse 15, which is a good apologetics verse right read verse 15 with 16 we get our answer but in your heart's honor or your version might say sanctify.

01:28:08

Is that what it is? Yep, honor Christ the Lord as holy Always being prepared to make a defense for anyone who asked for a reason of the hope that is in you yet do it with gentleness and respect having a good conscience

01:28:23

How do you have a good conscience? Well, it's by sanctifying the Lord your heart trusting in him for faith apart from your accomplishments

01:28:31

That's the appeal to God for a good conscience is faith in King Jesus Who is the ark of our salvation similar to the ark that saved

01:28:39

Noah and his family? And you know, it's crazy when you look at Hebrews chapter 11 the Hall of Faith.

01:28:45

Yeah, it's a Noah It says the household the ark saved the household from the water.

01:28:51

And so my point is it's the ark. It's the ark It's the ark. Just go read the Old Testament to read that.

01:28:56

Yeah Yeah, not not the water. Yeah, that's a breakdown man, man

01:29:05

That's a breakdown no, man, you got it like this It's a breakdown. Have you thought about writing a book on this subject?

01:29:12

Writing a book on this project you asked because the answer was yes until I Met this wonderful lady

01:29:21

Leanne Ferguson she wrote the book for me meaning that she came out of the

01:29:26

Church of Christ and Shared her testimony and she is a theologian man.

01:29:33

I'm just saying like And she she ended up Reformed Baptist. So that's a shameless plug on my side

01:29:39

But I Actually interviewed her yesterday. And so my interview with her has not even aired yet I'm still kind of editing the footage, but I cannot recommend this book enough to the audience

01:29:50

Christ rescued me Dot -dot -dot from the Church of Christ She systematically undoes all the proof texts like me and you were talking about right?

01:30:01

She goes even even in more great depth And Which you know, it's funny.

01:30:06

I figured out she had been following my ministry for the past year year and a half So it kind of came full circle, but I just told her

01:30:13

I'm basically plugging her book for people that asked for a good resource Check out that book

01:30:20

Christ rescued me from the Church of Christ by Lee in Ferguson Yeah, man Well, I appreciate you for for coming on here and kind of giving us a master class one on apologetics

01:30:32

But to also just on how to break down test. That's one thing. I truly appreciate I didn't really start to appreciate it until like maybe five or six years ago

01:30:39

I really like my love for the word really grew and that's one thing you kind of broke down You broke down things behind the scenes and I think in doing apologetics and doing any defensive any any

01:30:52

Guarding work or defensive work for the faith. I think there needs to be ample

01:30:58

Understanding of behind -the -scenes scriptures peeling back those layers doing doing the work being a good marine like you said a couple couple times throughout our talk of doing the hard work which is

01:31:09

Digging these things out and you'll find these truths like my my mind was a light a light on at least three of those scriptures

01:31:16

We looked at today. My mind was a light like oh that I mean, I've read those hundreds of times, right?

01:31:23

Already believe you know that you know, we're not saved by baptism, but oh Okay, I can look at it this way.

01:31:29

Oh, I see it that way. Oh, I see it So that this this conversation opened up so many eyes and I hope that it opened up the people's eyes online

01:31:38

Definitely. Let me just tell your audience like and subscribe to Drew's channel, please

01:31:43

Please please please and then tell them where to go find you. I know I'm tagging you in the title, but also

01:31:50

Reiterate your church website and if you're on social media is all that good stuff Yeah, so the apologetic dog

01:31:56

YouTube channel definitely want to encourage people to flow over there please like and subscribe that just help you articulate our content even

01:32:03

Drew's and I do have a website. I've been telling people you got to go check out the website the apologetic dog calm because It's an awful shape, but it's getting revamped

01:32:13

So you got to have that before and after because it's about to look awesome, right? So that's that's the apologetic side of things

01:32:20

I've been dealing with the Church of Christ cult and I say that out of love I want to see them legitimately saved right?

01:32:26

I want to see them in heaven I want to I want to be with them and the new heavens and new earth when Christ returns one day Right, and so I mean that out of a place of love because usually the c -word cult

01:32:36

Gets people upset and I'm just saying unless it's true and the most loving thing I could do is just tell them the truth

01:32:42

So that's the apologetic side of things. I also serve as pastor and elder at twelve five church

01:32:47

You can find us at twelvefivechurch .com We upload our sermons to Facebook and we have a YouTube channel there also and so I am on Facebook I'm one of those older guys.

01:32:57

I guess I'm just a couple years older than Drew, but I'm still Out to take the apologetic dog to Instagram tick -tock

01:33:04

So I'm gonna have to hit you up when I make it over to hit me up please that's one thing when I'm doing these interviews with the my

01:33:11

YouTube friends a lot of it's like the YouTube people one thing I realized in each of space YouTube people are not on social media, but the

01:33:18

YouTubes are huge, but they're not on social media and I'm like, yo if y 'all just get on Instagram you'd be killing the game because that's where I started see

01:33:29

I I wish I started the other way around because there's no money On the Instagram and on the there's no money on socials, but I started on socials

01:33:37

So I grew I mean, I only have like 1500 followers But I've had a couple videos get a couple hundred thousand views here and there and do pretty well

01:33:46

But YouTube was like, oh my gosh I'm glad you mentioned money because you know, the the positive thing about money is one day

01:33:56

I might be able to make more content if I'm able to have some revenue that just frees me up a little bit more and not having to have a job

01:34:05

Because my heart at the end the day is I mean all that money is gonna perish anyway And I just I love spending my time studying the

01:34:11

Word of God and helping equip the Saints, right? and being able to turn that into a full -time and that's what

01:34:18

I've been in prayer about myself like Full -time content creation full -time, you know ministry things that nature so hundred percent.

01:34:26

So guys, please be sure to Subscribe to his channel visit his website.

01:34:33

Check out his churches link all his links. I'll post his YouTube link in the description, but you'll be able to click on The title and be able to go straight to him the apology dog

01:34:45

Jeremiah. I thank you for coming on. You're welcome Dude, I drew we'll have to do this again sometime in we will we will we will we will most definitely

01:34:53

So be sure to LIKE subscribe Comment all that good stuff if you enjoyed this master class on learning about the