March 19, 2024 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Uncle Jerry’s Hodge Podge Lodge”

Opening Banter and Program Introduction

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of March 2024.

Before I introduce my guest today, I just want to thank everybody, once again, on Long Island who gave me such a warm greeting and wonderful time of fellowship when I was on Long Island from Thursday through Sunday.

I was there to emcee a fundraising gala, once again, for Grace Christian Academy of Long Island, and that took place at the Coral House Catering Hall in Baldwin, Long Island. And loved every minute of it, loved meeting new folks, and loved rekindling friendships with folks I haven't seen in years, including an old bartender of mine that I wanted to make sure he saw me as a clean and sober Christian man in his right mind, and more importantly, right with God.

And that was a wonderful time to see Tommy again, who didn't even recognize me when I initially walked through the door of Vittorio's Restaurant in Amityville, and then all of a sudden it dawned on him who I was, and he gave me a big bear hug, and it was just a wonderful time.

So if anybody would like to support, financially, a wonderful classical Christian school on Long Island, go to GCALI .com—that's the website for Grace Christian Academy of Long Island—GCALI .com, and you'll find how you can support them digitally or over the Internet with some tab that they've got on there for Grace Christian Academy.

That's GCALI .com. But I am thrilled to have a returning guest on the program, a very dear friend of mine, a very generous supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, financially, and somebody whose brain is chock-full of information about the Christian faith, and he is probably most well-known for the documentary that he co-wrote and co-created, a highly acclaimed documentary called Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, and he's also very well-known for his series Against the World TV.

And today, my dear friend Jerry Johnson, my guest today, and I are going to be conducting the first edition of something that I call Uncle Jerry's Hodgepodge Lodge, fielding questions on any topic related to Christianity.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson.

Thank you, Chris. It's funny you said Uncle Jerry. You know Mike O 'Fallon, don't you?

Oh, yeah, very well.

Mike has a girl that works for him named Kathy King, and Kathy used to call me her crazy Uncle Jerry.

Well, it suits you. Yeah, Kathy's a lovely, wonderful lady.

Did she ever get married?

No, that's a very strange phenomenon, isn't it?

Very strange. She's a very—we went to China, Tracy and I did with her. She was in our group, and you know, I couldn't believe it. That's been 12 years ago, and I was like, I can't believe nobody has married this girl.

Well, it's because of her.

She's sweet. She's beautiful.

It has nothing to do with them. It's to do with her. She admits to being extremely fussy, and she deserves to be fussy.

Yeah. Well, she's going to be too fussy. But if that's what she wants to do, that's up.

To her.

That's right. And I've got to get Mike O 'Fallon back on the program, and this is a nice reminder of that. I actually worked with Mike for a bit as part-time for his Sovereign Cruises business, and so I would like to get him back on the program.

Yeah. Myself and Dr. White did a conference for him.

Yes. And—.

Again, that was like 12 years ago.

Yep. And I went on a cruise when Dr. James R. White was also involved in a conference cruise.

I'll tell you a secret. Dr. White and I played chess together, and he beat me like a sack of poops. I'm not a chess player.

Well, he definitely is.

And he looked up at me and he goes, you're kidding. That's your poop? I was like, uh-oh, I guess I shouldn't make that.

Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address immediately, because this program is largely going to be questions on any topic from our listening audience, as long as it's in some way involving the Christian faith.

And that email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a very personal and private matter.

That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And we already have a question from a listener. His name is Brian in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And Brian wants to know, as a Pentecostal, he would like to know what our interpretations are of a couple of passages as non-Pentecostal or non-charismatic, or as the term that has become in vogue as cessationists, how we would interpret these.

The first text he would like you to exegete as a non-Pentecostal or charismatic is Joel chapter 2, 28 -29. So let's start with that one. He has one more text in the New Testament. But let's start with your understanding of Joel chapter 2, verses 28 -29.

Well, let me say this. I used to be a Pentecostal.

That's right.

So I'm not saying I know everything, brother. But I don't want to be offensive. But I was told as a little kid, offense is not something you do, it's something somebody takes. So I would just ask your listeners not to take offense, all right?

Because you could solve it very easily by not taking offense. Be stronger than that. Now, when it comes to the Pentecostal view of speaking in tongues, you have to believe in speaking in tongues because it's there.

The question is, the way Pentecostals and charismatics practice it, is that speaking in tongues? And I don't believe it is. So the passage in Joel that he is referencing is also the one Peter references in Acts 2.

Now, let me say this also. I had a professor at seminary, and he used to tell me, the Gospels are the proclamation, the Acts are the narration, the Epistles are the explanation, and Revelation is the consummation.

So you have to understand each book in its context. When it comes to Joel, that is a very good passage. But again, the way that charismatics and Pentecostals are practicing these things, I don't believe that is accurate.

I don't believe it's biblical. Now, I've always thought that this is one of the more difficult passages. Again, I said, Peter reiterates it in Acts 2. So the passage in Joel, I would say, let it stand as it is.

One of the things, you had mentioned the time. When was the time? Peter ascribed it to what was going on in Acts.

Right.

And again, we've got to remember, Acts is what, 32 chapters? Covering 40-something years? I can't remember right now. I'm losing it. I'm sorry. It's near the end of the day. 28 chapters. I'm sorry. 28 chapters covering 34 years of the Acts of the Apostles, if you will.

So you're getting very scanty information. So how would I deal with it? I just let it stand as it is. Peter said, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. So with that said, how do I understand it?

I pretty much let Peter, because I believe in a Christo-apostolic hermeneutic. Who better to interpret the Old Testament than Christ and his apostles? And I pretty much let it stand the way it is. I don't believe the way the Pentecostals, though, are practicing everything, that it is what they're saying.

And notice, Peter's statement is, that is this which was spoken by the prophet Joel. Now, it's not saying it's happening today. It's a continual thing. So this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.

So did it end at Exodus 2? Did it end on the day of Pentecost? There's nothing in the text that says it's continuing for us today.

Yeah, this is a prophecy in the Old Covenant that was fulfilled in the New Covenant. As you said, Peter references the prophecy. And this could not possibly prove that after the closing of the canon that we are still supposed to expect Christians to speak in tongues and receive extra-biblical revelation.

The Bible was still being written, not only in the Old Covenant, but in the New Covenant, while Peter was alive, the canon was not yet closed. In other words, we did not receive from God the full revelation of Scripture at this point.

It was still being inscripturated. And therefore, that cannot prove that after the Bible was completed that we would still need these things. And there are many things that were prophesied and occurred in the Old Covenant that most, if not all, Pentecostals do not practice today.

And the other thing that you mentioned is the speaking in tongues. Well, let me first go to the other text that he mentions, which is Mark 16, verses 17 -18. These signs will accompany those who have believed in my name.

They will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them, they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Well, the Scriptures were not yet complete when this was a text given to the Church. And, in fact, I believe that there's some controversy over this, whether it was actually a part of the original canon.

But, nonetheless, the tongues, for instance, you and I believe that the Scriptures teach that these tongues were real foreign languages. That a person who did not know those languages already were given a miraculous gift to proclaim the gospel in other languages that they had never learned before.

That was the miraculous aspect of it. And today, you will have some claim here and there, some anecdote of someone who claims that they heard a person that never learned Chinese or Italian or Spanish or German and there was speaking in tongues and it was in that language.

But the vast majority of examples we have in the 20th and 21st century of this occurring, it is, and again, I'm glad you told our listeners not to be offended, but it's gibberish. It's made-up languages that, interestingly, most often sound alike when people are speaking in tongues.

You know, when they're doing that, they very often sound the same as other people speaking in tongues. And it also is a handful of syllables, typically, that are repeated over and over again. So even if it was some kind of a real language, angelic or otherwise, it would be the repetition of the same few words over and over again.

Yeah. Now, Chris, let me say this. I don't know if I said this before, but when I was still a Pentecostal, I had a friend of mine that was in ciphers for the United States Marine Corps. And he came to the church.

Him and his wife were going to be godparents to my first son. And, you know, that's what he did. He broke codes. Well, we had this lady that morning that he came to the church speaking tongues. And Jeff looked at me and said, she's taking five syllables, saying them over again and again, and just in different order.

And he said, that's all she's doing. And so, you know, I'm not saying... At that time, I still believed in speaking in tongues, even though I had never practiced it. Because I do not believe experience is the best teacher.

I believe the word of God is the best teacher.

Right.

And so...

And...

That was something I thought was really interesting. I look back on that, and I thought of that when I started really researching the subject out. And I was really surprised that there was no biblical evidence for the way Pentecostals and Charismatics practice speaking in tongues.

Right.

And as far as the other signs are concerned, and perhaps even especially in regard to healing, miraculous healing, although you and I believe God heals today, and when we are seriously ill, as you were not long ago after a stroke, or someone else that we know and love has cancer or anything, we go directly to God, we plead with Him to heal that person or ourself, depending upon who has the ailment.

And we believe that God does at times, if He so chooses to, heals people. But we do not believe that humans in the 21st century, after the canon was closed, have a gift of healing.

No.

And one of the reasons that supports our view is that you never see anyone who is a Pentecostal or Charismatic healer healing in the ways that you see in the scriptures that are absolutely mind-blowing and remarkable, like people who are missing a limb.

They don't have arms or legs, or they're missing an arm or a leg. You don't ever see faith healers, so-called, restoring those limbs.

Right.

You don't see people who are actually blind or completely deaf, not subtly hard of hearing or something, as many healing services will have. Somebody whose hearing got better, they say.

Right.

But somebody who was born blind, somebody who was born deaf. You don't see those healings taking place. Although, it's always in Africa when you hear about, how come you don't see those kinds of people.

Getting healed?

Well, they do in Africa. They always claim it's a place far away in the jungle where there's no Internet or whatever. And, you know, especially, as I mentioned, raising of the dead. You don't see that happening.

Now, there is a disagreement amongst even cessationists today whether exorcisms are still being had today. I have no problem believing in an exorcism being valid. As the text includes in Mark, one of the sign gifts.

But that would be, I can't think of anything else to say right now. Do you think that you've exhausted this topic or do you want to add anything?

You know, the only thing I would say, at least this dear brother, I'm guessing it was.

Yes, Brian.

At least, I mean, what he's doing is he's assuming or he's basing his faith upon scripture. And I am taken back to a story that John Gerstner used to tell. And I'll say it to you right now, right? John Gerstner was doing four nights on the doctrine of election and predestination.

And a woman came up to him before the lecture and said, Dr. Gerstner, I don't believe in election and predestination because I don't believe they're in the Bible. All right. Fair enough. And Dr. Gerstner looked at her and said, ma 'am, if you don't find them in the Bible, then by all means, do not believe in them.

And I thought that was good advice. At the end of the four nights, she came up to Dr. Gerstner and said,.

Well,.

You've proven to me that election and predestination are in the Bible, but I'm still not going to believe in it. And he said, you know, yeah. But he said, a cold chill ran through his soul for this woman.

The first night was one of ignorance. She didn't know. And she wanted to believe the Bible. The second, or at the end of the four nights, that was a confession of rebellion. And at least this dear brother believes it's based upon scripture.

And that is one thing when I had to really dig into the scriptures on this subject matter, speaking in tongues and all of this, what Pentecostals and Charismatics are practicing, that's when I could no longer believe it because the more I studied it, I was like, wait a minute.

It's in the Bible, so you have to believe it. But is the way they're practicing it in the Bible? And that's where I have the disagreement. That's why I had to say no.

Now, it just occurred to me something else that I wanted to mention, especially in regard to the verses in Job. There is an emphasis on all men.

And what people.

Do not really have jump out at them in the 21st century.

Is that.

To the Jewish ear and mind,.

The thought of.

All humans outside of Israel getting blessed miraculously by God was something that horrified many of them.

Yeah, it was very foreign.

To the Hebrew mind.

Yes, and they were.

As they call.

Gentiles, the goyim, that means the nations.

And they.

Other than proselytes, Gentiles who actually were circumcised and became practitioners of the old covenant law, the Gentiles were dogs and to view them as being grafted into the kingdom of God was something that they would listen to with disbelief and sometimes even fury, anger, and prejudice.

And so the gift of tongues was a don't. You agree. As many cessationists and especially perhaps reformed Christians do that the gift of tongues was a sign of judgment against Israel for rejecting their Messiah and therefore the nations were speaking the gospel in their own tongue.

In their own language, yeah.

So.

Anyway if you have any follow up question Brian you can feel free to email it to us chrisarnson at gmail .com and we'll do our best to be more clear about our answers or answer something else for you.

And by the way if you give me your full mailing address you have won as a first time questioner a free New American Standard Bible and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com will ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us.

Alistair Begg, Same-Sex Marriage, and Christian Love

Well we are going to be returning after this first commercial break and Jerry has some issues that he would like to on his own that we will explore.

Hey Chris let me ask you a question real quick. Sure. How long is this break?

Somewhere around 8 minutes long.

I'm going to go get a cup of coffee. Alright.

So if anybody else wants to join us our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA.

Don't go away we are going to be right back after these messages.

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They were great.

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Andrea.

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Go to royaldiadem .com today to at least get the ball rolling on your purchase and mention Iron Sharp and Zion Radio. I just wanted to add one more thing before we go on to the topics that you wanted to discuss.

Jerry first of all I want to make clear that I believe many Pentecostals and Charismatics are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I have learned from many of them especially in the godliness of their lives very often.

But having said that the most dangerous element I believe of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement is the belief in modern day prophecy not only is that an unconscious unintentional denial of 2nd Timothy chapter 3, 16 through 17 which states all Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for retraining in righteousness so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable equipped for every good work.

Fully capable equipped for every good work. And if you believe we need new information from God you're saying that the Scriptures are insufficient for that.

For.

Every man and woman to be fully equipped for every good work. Am I making sense there, Jerry?

Yeah, I think you are. Let me add to it notice it says all Scripture Pas Grafe. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. I do a sermon before I have the stroke. I did a sermon and I would call it the Word of God and the Child of God and what I would do is I would stand up and I would say it doesn't say.

It doesn't say all feelings all emotions or all prophecies. It says all Scripture. My people do not perish for a lack of feelings. They perish for a lack of knowledge and that knowledge was the Word of God.

Now I believe the Word of God and we'll get into this hopefully if we have time,. I believe the Word of God is the 66 books of the Bible and it's nothing.

Else and.

When you have no place no common ground from which to start or which to finish then you can believe anything.

Yes, and this is an open door, this belief of modern day prophecy, extra biblical revelation, meaning revelation from God today that is not found already in the Holy Inerrant Word of God and the Scriptures, this opens the door for all kinds of dangerous and heretical and sinister.

Beliefs.

I told this story before but it's worth the repeating. Years ago I was working for a sign company and I was at the ICLC and I don't know what it was, we used to call it the Independent Charismatic Leadership Conference because that's kind of what it was but it actually had a more official name.

But there was this guy there, his name was Brother Tim and he had the booth right next to me and Brother Tim was a nice guy and he was a very sincere guy. And he claimed that he was taking a shower one day and while he was taking a shower, he fell into a trance and God spoke to him and he came out of the trance like four hours later and the water was cold and he was cold and he wrote it all down and he was giving the prophecy away.

He put it in a book and he was giving it away and he was telling me what it said and I would say to him, well Paul disputed that or Christ disputed that. And finally he goes, well you're depending too much upon the Bible.

This is God's new revelation.

And I.

Realized when he said that we had no common ground with which to speak. Now I don't know yes I do I do know. Where did he get that. Either he got it from his own self-inflated ego or he heard from a demon.

Either way, it was a lie straight from the pit of hell because it said the word of God was not relevant.

And one more question because this is a fascinating to me truth that many people who have left Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement who have experienced what they thought at the time was the gift of tongues they later came to.

Say that they.

Now believe they were merely in a desire a deep desire to please God they were merely imitating what everybody else was doing.

Right.

And they were being told by their pastors leaders and fellow congregants that they had this gift when they.

Did that.

It was being confirmed that what they were doing is genuine they later came to believe that it was just gibberish.

And.

So I know that you never received the gift while you were Pentecostal.

Even though I sincerely.

Sought it.

Because I believed it I went to the Brownsville Assembly. I had that guy Steve Hall pray over me. I lifted up my hands. I was like Lord if you want to speak through tongues through me if you want me to be slain in the spirit, I am a willing instrument.

And it didn't happen. And I always remember this Christ said and you being evil if your son asks you for a loaf of bread who would give him a serpent. How much more will your heavenly father give it to those who desire it or who seek it the Holy Spirit.