March 19, 2024 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Uncle Jerry’s Hodge Podge Lodge”

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Live from historic downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of March, 2024.

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Before I introduce my guest today, I just want to thank everybody, once again, on Long Island who gave me such a warm greeting and wonderful time of fellowship when

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I was on Long Island from Thursday through Sunday. I was there to emcee a fundraising gala, once again, for Grace Christian Academy of Long Island, and that took place at the

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Coral House Catering Hall in Baldwin, Long Island, and loved every minute of it, loved meeting new folks, and loved rekindling friendships with folks

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I haven't seen in years, including an old bartender of mine that I wanted to make sure he saw me as a clean and sober

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Christian man in his right mind, and more importantly, right with God.

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And that was a wonderful time to see Tommy again, who didn't even recognize me when

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I initially walked through the door of Vittorio's Restaurant in Amityville, and then all of a sudden he gave me a big bear hug, and it was just a wonderful time.

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So if anybody would like to support, financially, a wonderful classical

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Christian school on Long Island, go to GCALI .com—that's

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the website for Grace Christian Academy of Long Island—GCALI .com, and you will find how you can support them digitally or over the

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Internet with some tab that they've got on there for Grace Christian Academy.

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That's GCALI .com. But I am thrilled to have a returning guest on the program, a very dear friend of mine, a very generous supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, financially, and somebody whose brain is chock full of information about the

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Christian faith, and he is probably well—mostly well known for the documentary that he co -wrote and co -created, a highly acclaimed documentary called

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Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism, and he's also very well known for his series

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Against the World TV. And today, my dear friend

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Jerry Johnson, my guest today, and I are going to be conducting the first edition of something that I call

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Uncle Jerry's Hodgepodge Lodge, fielding questions on any topic related to Christianity.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson. Thank you,

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Chris. It's funny you said Uncle Jerry. You know Mike O 'Fallon, don't you?

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Oh, yeah, very well. Mike has a girl that works for him named Kathy King.

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Oh, yes. And Kathy used to call me her crazy Uncle Jerry. Well, it suits you.

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Yeah, Kathy's a lovely, wonderful lady. Did she ever get married? No, that's a very strange phenomenon, isn't it?

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Very strange. She's a very—we went to China, Tracy and I did with her.

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She was in our group. And, you know, I couldn't believe it. That's been 12 years ago.

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And I was like, I can't believe nobody has married this girl. Well, it's because of her.

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She's beautiful. It has nothing to do with them. It's to do with her. She admits to being extremely fussy, and she deserves to be fussy.

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Yeah. Well, she's going to be too fussy. But if that's what she wants to do, that's up to her.

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That's right. And I've got to get Mike O 'Fallon back on the program, and this is a nice reminder of that.

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I actually worked with Mike for a bit as part -time for his

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Sovereign Cruises business. Yeah. And so I would like to get him back on the program.

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Yeah. Myself and Dr. White did a conference for him.

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Yes. Again, that was like 12 years ago. Yep. And I went on a cruise when

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Dr. James R. White was also involved in a conference cruise.

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I'll tell you a secret. Dr. White and I played chess together, and he beat me like his boobs.

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I'm not a chess player. Well, he definitely is. He looked up at me, and he goes, you're kidding.

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That's your boob? I was like, uh -oh. I guess I shouldn't make that.

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Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address immediately, because this program is largely going to be questions on any topic from our listening audience, as long as it's in some way involving the

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Christian faith. And that email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name, at least, city and state, and country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a very personal and private matter.

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That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And we already have a question from a listener.

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His name is Brian in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And Brian wants to know, as a

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Pentecostal, he would like to know what our interpretations are of a couple of passages as non -Pentecostal or non -Charismatic, or as the term that has become in vogue as cessationists, how we would interpret these.

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The first text he would like you to exegete as a non -Pentecostal or Charismatic is

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Joel chapter 2, 28 through 29. It will come after this that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will have dreams, your young men will see visions, and even on the male and female servants

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I will pour out my spirit in those days. So let's start with that one. He has one more text in the

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New Testament. But let's start with your understanding of Joel chapter 2, verses 28 through 29.

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Well, let me say this. I used to be a Pentecostal. That's right. So I'm not saying

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I knew, know everything, brother. But I don't want to be offensive.

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But I was told as a little kid, offense is not something you do.

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It's something somebody takes. So I would just ask your listeners not to take offense, all right?

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Because you could solve it very easily by not taking offense. Be stronger than that.

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Now, when it comes to the Pentecostal view of speaking in tongues, you have to believe in speaking in tongues because it's there.

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The question is, the way Pentecostals and Charismatics practice it, is that speaking in tongues?

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And I don't believe it is. So the passage in Joel that he is referencing is also the one

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Peter references in Acts 2. Now, let me say this also. I had a professor at seminary, and he used to tell me, the

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Gospels are the proclamation. The Acts are the narration. The Epistles are the explanation.

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And Revelation is the consummation. So you have to understand each book in its context.

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When it comes to Joel, that is a very good passage. But again, the way that Charismatics and Pentecostals are practicing these things,

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I don't believe that is accurate. I don't believe it's biblical.

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Now, I've always thought that this is one of the more difficult passages.

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Again, I said Peter reiterates it in Acts 2. So the passage in Joel, I would say, let it stand as it is.

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One of the things, you had mentioned the time. When was the time? Peter ascribed it to what was going on in Acts.

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And again, we've got to remember,

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Acts is what, 32 chapters? Covering 40 -something years?

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I can't remember right now. I'm losing it. I'm sorry. It's near the end of the day. 28 chapters.

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I'm sorry. 28 chapters covering 34 years of the

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Acts of the Apostles, if you will. So you're getting very scanty information.

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So how would I deal with it? I just let it stand as it is. Peter said, this is that which was spoken by the prophet

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Joel. So with that said, how do I understand it?

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I pretty much let Peter, because I believe in a Christo -apostolic hermeneutic.

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Who better to interpret the Old Testament than Christ and his apostles? And I pretty much let it stand the way it is.

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I don't believe the way the Pentecostals, though, are practicing everything, that it is what they're saying.

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And notice, Peter's statement is, that is this which was spoken by the prophet

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Joel. Now, it's not saying it's happening today.

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It's a continual thing. So this is that which was spoken by the prophet

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Joel. So did it end at Acts 2? Did it end on the day of Pentecost?

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There's nothing in the text that says it's continuing for us today. Yeah, this is a prophecy in the

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Old Covenant that was fulfilled in the New Covenant, as you said,

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Peter references the prophecy. And this could not possibly prove that after the closing of the canon, that we are still supposed to expect

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Christians to speak in tongues and receive extra -biblical revelation.

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The Bible was still being written, not only in the Old Covenant, but in the

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New Covenant, while Peter was alive, the canon was not yet closed. In other words, we did not receive from God the full revelation of Scripture at this point.

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It was still being inscripturated. And therefore, that cannot prove that after the

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Bible was completed, that we would still need these things. And there are many things that were prophesied and occurred in the

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Old Covenant that most, if not all, Pentecostals do not practice today.

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And the other thing that you mentioned is the speaking in tongues.

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Well, let me first go to the other text that he mentions, which is

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Mark 16, verses 17 through 18. These signs will accompany those who have believed in my name.

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They will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues, they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them, they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

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Well, the Scriptures were not yet complete when this was a text given to the

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Church. And, in fact, I believe that there's some controversy over this, whether it was actually a part of the original canon.

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But, nonetheless, the tongues, for instance.

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You and I believe that the Scriptures teach that these tongues were real foreign languages, that a person who did not know those languages already were given a miraculous gift to proclaim the gospel in other languages that they had never learned before.

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That was the miraculous aspect of it. And today, you will have some claim here and there, some anecdote of someone who claims that they heard a person that never learned

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Chinese or Italian or Spanish or German, and they were speaking in tongues, and it was in that language.

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But the vast majority of examples we have in the 20th and 21st century of this occurring, it is, and again,

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I'm glad you told our listeners not to be offended, but it's gibberish. It's made -up languages that, interestingly, most often sound alike when people are speaking in tongues.

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You know, when they're doing that, they very often sound the same as other people speaking in tongues.

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And it also is a handful of syllables, typically, that are repeated over and over again.

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So even if it was some kind of a real language, angelic or otherwise, it would be the repetition of the same few words over and over again.

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Yeah. Now, Chris, let me say this. I don't know if I said this before, but when

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I was still a Pentecostal, I had a friend of mine that was in ciphers for the

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United States Marine Corps, and he came to the church. Him and his wife were going to be godparents to my first son, and, you know, that's what he did.

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He broke codes. Well, we had this lady that morning that he came to the church speaking tongues, and Jeff looked at me and said, she's taking five syllables, saying them over again and again, and just in different order.

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And he said, that's all she's doing. And so, you know, I'm not saying, at that time

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I still believed in speaking in tongues, even though I had never practiced it, because I do not believe experience is the best teacher.

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I believe the word of God is the best teacher. Right. And so that was something

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I thought was really interesting. I look back on that, and I thought of that when

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I started really researching the subject out, and I was really surprised that there was no biblical evidence for the way

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Pentecostals and Charismatics practice speaking in tongues. Right.

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And as far as the other signs are concerned, and perhaps even especially in regard to healing, miraculous healing, although you and I believe

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God heals today, and when we are seriously ill, as you were not long ago after a stroke, or someone else that we know and love has cancer or anything, we go directly to God, we plead with Him to heal that person or ourself, depending upon who has the ailment.

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And we believe that God does at times, if He so chooses to, heals people.

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But we do not believe that humans in the 21st century, after the canon was closed, have a gift of healing.

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And one of the reasons that supports our view is that you never see anyone who is a

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Pentecostal or Charismatic healer healing in the ways that you see in the

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Scriptures that are absolutely mind -blowing and remarkable, like people who are missing a limb.

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They don't have arms or legs, or they're missing an arm or a leg. You don't ever see faith healers, so -called, restoring those limbs.

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You don't see people who are actually blind or completely deaf, not subtly hard of hearing or something, as many healing services will have.

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Somebody whose hearing got better, they say. But somebody who was born blind, somebody who was born deaf.

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You don't see those healings taking place, although it's always in Africa when you hear about, how come you don't see those kinds of people getting healed?

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What do they do in Africa? They always claim it's a place far away in the jungle where there's no internet or whatever.

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And especially, as I mentioned, raising of the dead. You don't see that happening. Now there is a disagreement amongst even cessationists today whether exorcisms are still being had today.

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I have no problem believing in an exorcism being valid, as the text includes in Mark, one of the signed gifts.

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But that would be, I can't think of anything else to say right now. Do you think that you've exhausted this topic, or do you want to add anything?

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You know, the only thing I would say, at least this dear brother,

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I'm guessing it was. Yes, Brian. At least, I mean, what he's doing is he's assuming, or he's basing his faith upon scripture.

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And I am taken back to a story that John Gerster used to tell.

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And I'll say it to you right now, all right? John Gerster was doing four nights on the doctrine of election and predestination.

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And a woman came up to him before the lecture and said, Dr. Gerster, I don't believe in election and predestination because I don't believe they're in the

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Bible. All right, fair enough. And Dr. Gerster looked at her and said, Ma 'am, if you don't find them in the

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Bible, then by all means, do not believe in them. And I thought that was good advice.

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At the end of the four nights, she came up to Dr. Gerster and said, Well, you've proven to me that election and predestination are in the

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Bible, but I'm still not going to believe in it. And he said, you know, yeah.

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But he said a cold chill ran through his soul for this woman. The first night was one of ignorance.

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She didn't know. And she wanted to believe the Bible. The second or the at the end of the four nights, that was a confession of rebellion.

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And at least this dear brother believes it's based upon scripture. And that is one thing when

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I had to really dig into the scriptures on this subject matter, speaking in tongues and all of this, what

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Pentecostals and Charismatics are practicing. That's when I could no longer believe it, because the more

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I studied it, I was like, wait a minute. It's in the Bible, so you have to believe it.

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But is the way they're practicing it in the Bible? And that's where I have the disagreement.

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That's why I had to say no. Now, it just occurred to me something else that I wanted to mention, especially in regard to the verses in Job.

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There is an emphasis on all men. And what people do not really have jump out at them in the 21st century is that to the

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Jewish ear and mind, the thought of all humans outside of Israel getting blessed miraculously by God was something that horrified many of them.

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Yeah, it was very foreign to the Hebrew mind. Yes, and they were, as they call

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Gentiles, the goyim, that means the nations. Right. And they, other than proselytes,

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Gentiles who actually were circumcised and became practitioners of the

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Old Covenant law, the Gentiles were dogs, and to view them as being grafted in to the kingdom of God was something that they would listen to with disbelief and sometimes even fury, anger, and prejudice.

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And so the gift of tongues was a, well, don't you agree, as many cessationists and especially perhaps

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Reformed Christians do, that the gift of tongues was a sign of judgment against Israel for rejecting their

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Messiah, and therefore the nations were speaking the gospel in their own tongue.

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In their own language, yeah. So, anyway, if you have any follow -up question,

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Brian, you can feel free to email it to us, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and we'll do our best to be more clear about our answers or answer something else for you.

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And by the way, if you give me your full mailing address, you have won, as a first -time questioner, a free

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New American Standard Bible. And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

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we'll ship that out to you at no charge to you or to us. Well, we are going to be returning after this first commercial break, and Jerry has some issues that he would like to bring up on his own that we will explore.

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Hey, Chris, let me ask you a question real quick. Sure. How long is this break? Somewhere around eight minutes long.

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I'm going to go get a cup of coffee. All right. And so, if anybody else wants to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail dot com.

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Iron Sharp and Zion Radio. I just wanted to add one more thing before we go on to the topics that you wanted to discuss,

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Jerry. First of all, I want to make clear that I believe many Pentecostals and Charismatics are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

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I have learned from many of them, especially in the godliness of their lives very often.

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But having said that, the most dangerous element, I believe, of Pentecostalism and the

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Charismatic movement is the belief in modern -day prophecy. Not only is that an unconscious, unintentional denial of 2

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Timothy 3 .16 -17, which states, All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for retraining in righteousness, so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.

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Fully capable, equipped for every good work. And if you believe we need new information from God, you're saying that the

37:54

Scriptures are insufficient for that, for every man and woman to be fully equipped for every good work.

38:04

Am I making sense there, Jerry? Yeah, I think you are. Let me add to it. Notice it says,

38:11

All Scripture. Yeah. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.

38:18

I do a sermon, before I have the stroke, I did a sermon, and I would call it the

38:24

Word of God and the Child of God. And what I would do is, I would stand up and I would say, it doesn't say all feelings, all emotions, or all prophecies.

38:38

It says, All Scripture. My people do not perish for a lack of feelings.

38:44

They perish for a lack of knowledge, and that knowledge was the Word of God. Now, I believe the

38:50

Word of God, and we'll get into this, hopefully, if we have time. I believe the

38:56

Word of God is the 66 books of the Bible. And it's nothing else.

39:02

That's right. And when you have no place, no common ground from which to start or which to finish, then you can believe anything.

39:15

Yes, and this is an open door, this belief of modern -day prophecy, extra -biblical revelation, meaning revelation from God today that is not found already in the holy, inerrant

39:27

Word of God and the Scriptures. This opens the door for all kinds of dangerous and heretical and sinister beliefs.

39:39

Yes, I told this story before, but it's worth repeating.

39:45

Years ago, I was working for a sign company, and I was at the

39:50

ICLC, and I don't know what it was. We used to call it the Independent Charismatic Leadership Conference because that's kind of what it was, but it actually had a more official name.

40:03

But there was this guy there. His name was Brother Tim, and he had the booth right next to me.

40:10

And Brother Tim was a nice guy, and he was a very sincere guy.

40:17

And he claimed that he was taking a shower one day, and while he was taking his shower, he fell into a trance, and God spoke to him, and he came out of the trance like four hours later, and the water was cold, and he was cold, and he wrote it all down, and he was giving the prophecy away.

40:42

He put it in a book, and he was giving it away. And he was telling me what it said, and I would say to him, well,

40:50

Paul disputed that, or Christ disputed that, and finally he goes, well, you're depending too much upon the

40:57

Bible. This is God's new revelation. And I realized when he said that, we had no common ground with which to speak.

41:08

Now, I don't know. Yes, I do. I do know. Where did he get that?

41:16

Either he got it from his own, you know, self -inflated ego, or he heard from a demon.

41:25

Either way, it was a lie straight from the pit of hell because it said the

41:32

Word of God was not relevant. And one more question, because this is a fascinating, to me, truth, that many people who have left

41:47

Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement who have experienced what they thought at the time was the gift of tongues, they later came to say that they now believe they were merely in a desire, a deep desire to please

42:10

God. They were merely imitating what everybody else was doing.

42:18

Right. And they were being told by their pastors, leaders, and fellow congregants that they had this gift when they did that.

42:32

Right. It was being confirmed that what they were doing is genuine. They later came to believe that it was just gibberish.

42:43

And so I know that you never received the gift while you were

42:49

Pentecostal. Even though I sincerely sought it. Yes.

42:54

Because I believed it. I went to the Brownsville Assembly. I had that guy,

43:00

Steve Hall, pray over me. I lifted up my hands. I was like, Lord, if you want to speak through tongues through me, if you want me to be slain in the spirit,

43:10

I am a willing instrument. And it didn't happen. And I always remember this.

43:16

Christ said, and you being evil, if your son asked you for a loaf of bread, who would give him a serpent?

43:26

How much more will your heavenly father give it to those who desire it or who seek it?

43:33

Right. The Holy Spirit. And I was taught in the Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee, bless their hearts.

43:41

And you're right. I knew many godly men in that movement. Men that were more godly than I could ever imagine.

43:50

But they were sincerely wrong on this point. Yes. And, well,

43:57

I think that we've covered enough of that for now, unless anybody else joins us with a question on that.

44:03

Let's move into one of the questions that you already wanted to address from your own list.

44:11

Should Christians attend a homosexual or transgendered wedding?

44:17

And this obviously became a very controversial issue that erupted when

44:22

Alistair Begg, world -renowned Reformed Bible teacher and preacher and author, somebody whose writings and whose sermons

44:33

I have enthusiastically promoted in the past, he shocked me and many of his followers when he gave the advice during a podcast to a grandmother to attend her adult grandchild's wedding to a so -called transgendered person in order to demonstrate love.

45:01

As long as that person knew that they disagreed with marrying somebody of the same biological sex and disagreed with the whole transgendered movement and so on, going to this so -called wedding was to be an evidence of love for that person.

45:23

And I and many other folks were horrified by this advice.

45:31

And, in fact, I conducted an interview with somebody who is a representative of the

45:40

American Family Association whose radio network took

45:46

Alistair off the air after this horrific advice he gave.

45:54

And M .D. Perkins is his name. M .D., just like medical doctor Perkins.

46:00

P -E -R -K -I -N -S. If you want to hear that interview, just type in P -E -R -K -I -N -S into the search engine at ientrepreneursionradio .com

46:09

and you'll hear my interview about that. But I want to hear your specific answer to that question.

46:16

All right. I am going to speak very candidly.

46:22

First, let me say I, too, have profited a lot from Alistair Begg's ministry.

46:30

I listen to sermons every day when I walk. And, you know,

46:37

I can't tell you how many times I've heard one of his sermons. I thought, man, that is great.

46:43

I think he's a sincere man. I'm not saying he's not a

46:49

Christian for this position he's holding. So I want people to understand that.

46:54

I do believe he's a Christian. I do believe he's saved. I do believe he's profitable. I believe he's sincere, but I believe he's sincerely wrong.

47:04

Yes, and he does also agree with us that so -called same -sex marriage is an abomination.

47:10

It's not a real marriage. He believes that homosexuality, if you do not repent of it, you are damned.

47:17

So he would agree with us on all of the essential doctrines that involve homosexuality.

47:25

But at the same time, he said, in order to demonstrate love, that this was the thing that would be the best counsel, which is mind -boggling that he would say that.

47:36

But you can continue now. Yeah, I don't believe it is showing love.

47:41

I believe it's the opposite. Yes, yes. And the thing that gets me, because I look for his statement because I wanted to hear it directly.

47:53

Unfortunately, I couldn't find it. I found people commenting about it, but I never heard him say it.

48:02

But I'm going to believe, because a lot of the people that responded to it, I really respect.

48:08

So I don't doubt that he said that. But here is the shibboleth, if you will.

48:15

Here is the point I believe he is missing. God does not need you or me or Charles Spurgeon or anybody to proclaim the gospel.

48:29

And that is what I think that is missing that he doesn't understand. He chooses us, but he doesn't need us.

48:38

All right? So I want to make that point. John the Baptist, when he was, you can look at it in Matthew chapter 3, he says to the

48:49

Jews, the Pharisees, he said, do not say to yourselves, we have

48:54

Abraham as our father. For I tell you that God is able to raise up children of Abraham from these stones.

49:04

And Jesus says the same thing on, what is it, Palm Sunday. The Pharisees said, hey, you need to tell your disciples to be quiet.

49:16

And Jesus replied, I tell you, if they would not stop speaking, the stones would cry out.

49:24

My point is, God doesn't need us. He chooses us. He lets us participate with him.

49:31

So we need to do things his way. And here's one of the questions

49:36

I would have for Alistair Begg. Suppose there was a wedding.

49:43

And you were invited to it. And the man and the woman said as their first act of being married, they were going to have sex on stage for everybody to watch.

49:56

Would you go to that? I wouldn't. No. And I don't think he would either.

50:05

So my point being is, if it is dirty, if it is wrong, if God is saying no, it's an abomination, don't do it.

50:13

Don't be involved in it or even give any type of credence to it. Do what is right in God's eyes, not man.

50:22

It reminds me of that passage that Paul said, am I now trying to persuade men or God?

50:31

For if I try to persuade men, then I am not the servant of Jesus Christ.

50:38

Hang on. Yes, and you could even make something, you can make a comparison that is even less shocking and perhaps even more believable.

50:49

I'm sure Alistair, at least I would think, I'm pretty confident he would not attend a wedding if a man he knew, might even be his close friend, was cheating on his wife, divorced his wife, and then married the adulteress fairly quickly.

51:10

So we're not talking about decades of time elapsing or something. He marries this adulteress and pleads with Alistair to attend the wedding.

51:19

I'm sure he would say, no, I can't. You've committed a sin against God and you've also crushed the wonderful woman that you were married to.

51:28

You've deeply offended her. And so therefore, I think that this is even more of a horrific example because it's not even a wedding.

51:41

It's a satanic imitation of a wedding.

51:49

Right. I'm sorry. I had it on mute. No, that's quite right. Yeah. Years ago, and I'm not going to say his name, there was a man that was sharing the gospel with a stripper.

52:06

And he would actually go into the place that he was, that she was stripping, the strip club.

52:14

And his wife got upset that he would go in there. And I can remember

52:19

I said to him, brother, you need to do what your wife is asking. And he wouldn't do it.

52:25

He thought the gospel, she needed to get the gospel, he was going to go into the strip club.

52:31

I would not encourage anybody to do that. Right, exactly.

52:38

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

52:46

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

52:55

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Please be patient with us, folks.

53:02

The middle break is always the longer break in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, is required by the FCC to localize Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, with their own public service announcements while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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So please use this time wisely. Respond to as many of our advertisers as you can so that they will continue to advertise and keep this program on the air.

53:33

Their financial support through their advertising is absolutely essential to our existence.

53:39

And also, use this time to send in your questions to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Jerry Johnson, so please do not go away.

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In the film, Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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click support, then click click to donate now and if you have a question for Jerry Johnson please send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence so Jerry, I don't know if you have finished in your segment on should we attend a homosexual or transsexual wedding if you are finished and what you have to say one thing that I wanted to add your illustration of would somebody ever attend a wedding where even the heterosexual couple said that they were going to actually consummate the marriage in public on stage would you go to that the thing that was interesting is that Alistair Begg in this counsel that he gave in the hearing shot of thousands of people on this podcast he never said to ask grandma or to I should say he never told grandma to ask her grandchild who was inviting her to the so called transgender wedding what's going to be going on at this wedding reception he never said to the woman please make sure that there is not some vulgar display of sexuality going on because these folks can't seem to keep their shirts on even on the

01:12:55

White House lawn let alone when disco music is blaring and people are dancing and they are at a celebration of sodomy who knows what's going to happen that wasn't even considered a scene by Alistair Begg isn't that something that is amazing but the key issue with that is what is an act of love and no matter what you tell a person you're physically being there at a celebration speaks louder than your words that you disagree with the act and the so called wedding which is not a wedding at all your being there is going to give the very clear signal to everyone that you are celebrating that event and that's not an act of love and that is what concerns me

01:13:48

I know he was sincere when he said it but like I said he was sincerely wrong because the gospel doesn't need us

01:13:57

God doesn't need us, He lets us and we've got to remember that that's happening to me more and more it will only get worse brother and I just used a word that I think they made up in Boston I said irregardless

01:14:19

I mean regardless it is not an act of love to do something like that to attend a satanic event like that I'm sorry

01:14:29

Chris are you from Boston no but I've heard people from up there say irregardless irregardless alright

01:14:40

I want to get on to the next subject matter because this is something that really means a lot to me circumstantial epistemology epistemology is basically how do you know what you know how

01:14:56

I know what I know and I'm sure there's a lot of points where I'm not doing it right but how

01:15:04

I know what I know is from the bible revelation the mere word means that it's revealed

01:15:11

God revealed it to us and so many times I have talked to Christians that they don't believe

01:15:20

I mean they believe the bible is the word of God but when it comes to circumstances they seem to speak louder than the bible does and I always point them back to the word of God what does the word of God say let me give you an example if somebody is walking down the road and they need a hundred dollars and they see a hundred dollar bill fall out of a man's pocket they seem to believe that God wanted them to have that hundred dollars even though he says in his word thou shalt not steal you know where that hundred dollars came from you need to give it back to the man not keep it for yourself not assume that God wanted you to have it and what

01:16:09

I use is the passage in first Samuel chapter 24 and I'm not going to rehearse the whole thing here but basically

01:16:20

David was or Saul was pursuing David Saul goes into a cave to sleep

01:16:27

David and his men are hiding in that cave and David's men said look

01:16:36

God has given you Saul into your hands and David said to make a long story short not for me to touch the

01:16:47

Lord's anointed and he told Saul hey I could have done this to you but I didn't and God I believe was testing

01:16:57

David David's followers even quoted scripture to him and David said

01:17:04

I'm not going to do this and what I believe what was transpiring there was

01:17:11

God was testing David to see if David was going to lean to his own understanding or if he was going to take

01:17:20

God at his word and not touch the anointed and too many

01:17:25

Christians look at tea leaves, they look at circumstances they look at happenstances what's going on and that is how they ultimately define truth but truth is only found in the word of God not in circumstances so we need to get a lot of Christians we need to get rid of jettison this belief that circumstances will dictate how we behave it's the word of God we need to trust him with the results do what is right in his eyes and trust him with the results so even if we're walking down the road and we need a hundred dollars if we see it fall out of a man's pocket it is not a sign that God wants you to have it it is a sign that God wants to see if you're going to be obedient amen and would you like to move on with your political dichotomy or would you like to remain in circumstances let me just say this real quick because I have political dichotomy because a lot of people seem to think that God is a

01:18:37

Republican a lot of people seem to think that God is a Democrat I've talked to both of them and I always have to tell them the

01:18:47

Republican party is really not much better than the Democrat party I always equated that if you look at the only savior of the

01:18:57

United States is the Lord Jesus Christ and that is only if he considers it good and right to do so but if you look at both political parties the

01:19:10

Democrats are on a tractor heading off a cliff now they may be going faster than the

01:19:16

Republicans but the Republicans are going right off the cliff with them and we need to remember that God is neither a

01:19:25

Republican or a Democrat and so what we've got to do every two, four years whatever the case may be we get to vote it's like us arguing with the captain of the

01:19:40

Titanic about which side to move the chairs to as the boat is going down folks, the boat is still going down I don't care who's sitting in the seat it could be a

01:19:53

Republican or it could be a Democrat but in the end the

01:19:58

Lord Jesus Christ is the only one that's going to save this country and too many

01:20:04

Christians have got it in their mind that if we just get enough Democrats elected or if we just get enough

01:20:11

Republicans elected they're both wrong we need to vote for the

01:20:16

Lord Jesus Christ and that is the only person that we should vote for and the only person that can save America nobody else can well when we go, however, into a voting booth

01:20:33

Jesus Christ is not on the ballot so do you believe that a

01:20:38

Christian can be justified voting for a candidate that enthusiastically, giddily supports a woman's so -called right to murder her unborn children no, no,

01:20:54

I don't and I will tell you right now just to be as transparent as possible

01:21:00

I usually vote Republican the one time I did it was when

01:21:07

Mitt Romney ran for president I refused to vote for him for multiple reasons one,

01:21:13

I was afraid that Mormonism and Christianity were going to be confused

01:21:19

Mormonism is not Christianity no way, shape, or form it's actually

01:21:25

Antichrist the other thing is, I really believe that Mitt Romney was kind of Obama -lite and I didn't like Obama's policies

01:21:38

I didn't like Mitt Romney's policies I put out a statement I got 50 people to sign it scholars, if you will but I lost a lot of friends because of that one in particular that was really upset that I wasn't going to support the

01:21:58

Republican candidate and I told him I'm not going to do it no matter what and he eventually came back to me and said you know what, you were right but that was like 2016 he didn't talk to me for a long time and he was upset with me and I told him there was no way

01:22:21

I was going to vote for Obama there was no way I was going to vote for Mitt Romney and I think time proved itself out that I was right about Mitt Romney oh yeah well, shall we now delve into the myth of the age of accountability?

01:22:40

this is one thing, and I've heard people speak about this numerous times and I'm going to play off your statement here if the age of accountability which is not biblical people have come up with that the problem is, it kind of meets our modern view and I say ours, not yours or mine that people go to hell because they have not heard the gospel of Christ I can remember one time

01:23:13

I was at a church, I had probably been a Christian for about two years and we had this guest speaker in and he was talking about what do you do with the pygmy

01:23:24

African that has never heard the gospel when he dies, is he going to go to hell and the problem with the question is it assumes that the pygmy

01:23:35

African is innocent all are guilty before the law of God we go to hell or a person goes to hell because they are a sinner not for any other reason and nobody is going to be in heaven that deserves to be there and nobody is going to be in hell that should be surprised to be there and with a child

01:24:04

I can remember years ago I was talking to Dr. R .C. Sproul and he said to me

01:24:11

I got to remember how he said it table talk had done a cover and they had a little baby on the cover and a little blue blanket over his head and the baby was smiling and all cute and the only caption next to it was totally depraved and Dr.

01:24:32

Sproul said we lost more support with that than we did anything else and that is because a lot of Christians see that baby as being innocent let me say this and I want people to hear it we do not become sinners when we sin that is

01:24:53

Pelagianism we sin because we are born sinners that little baby is going to sin that little baby actually

01:25:02

David says in sin did my mother conceive me you were a sinner the minute you were conceived so if that baby dies in infancy then it is automatically going to go to hell now

01:25:16

I don't understand why but the word of God tells us it teaches us original sin and then it teaches us total depravity so we are all born every single one of us with original sin we are all born with total depravity if we weren't then the greatest evangelist of all time would be abortion doctors it would be cruel to let a baby live now you are referring to an age of accountability that involves salvation as if a child innately is pure and innocent free from the inheritance of Adam's sin until they can consciously choose to sin you are talking about that being a fallacy but at the same time is it wrong to use the phrase in your opinion the age of accountability when we are talking about something like a child in a church to have voting privileges or a child to be welcomed to the

01:26:28

Lord's supper even though you believe in infant baptism I'm assuming you do not believe in infant communion as a growing number is that an incorrect use of the term to say that you believe in the age of accountability when it comes to voting when it comes to the

01:26:44

Lord's supper I wouldn't use it that way I'm talking specifically about salvation justification would it be appropriate or inappropriate to use it for those reasons

01:27:00

I would probably use a different term now my children were admitted to the

01:27:08

Lord's table I had one guy, a good guy tell me he wouldn't admit any child over the age of 12 to the

01:27:19

Lord's supper you mean under the age of 12 under the age of 12

01:27:25

I disagreed with him I believe if a child is 5 years old and they can discern the

01:27:33

Lord's body they should be admitted to the Lord's supper I do believe they need to be examined by the elders to make sure because I don't want that child eating and drinking condemning themselves

01:27:49

I heard a guy actually it was Dr. Ken Talbot if you go up to a child and say do you love

01:27:58

Jesus the child is going to say yes and then you can say do you love

01:28:03

Adolf Hitler the child will say yes do you know what day of the week it is no, they don't know what day of the week it is so how can they discern the

01:28:14

Lord's body so I do believe the elders and I had

01:28:20

Ken Talbot and some of his elders examine my children before they were admitted to the

01:28:28

Lord's table and I believe that's totally appropriate ok, we have

01:28:39

Langston in Seacliff Long Island, New York and Langston asks how do you respond to people who say

01:28:48

God would never hold the sins of Adam and Eve against people who had not committed that same sin in the

01:28:56

Garden of Eden well see, there is a doctrine that's called federalism

01:29:04

Adam and Eve were our federal representatives and when

01:29:10

Adam sinned I would take them to Romans chapter 5 when Adam sinned, sin passed to all men and anybody that has a earthly father because the sin comes through the father and everyone has an earthly father except the

01:29:30

Lord Jesus I would say go to Romans 5 I would read that God picked for us the best representatives in Adam and Eve we would have done the same thing if we were there yes, so in other words it doesn't matter that we weren't there we would definitely not have done any better well

01:29:56

Romans 7 tells us that in the loins of Levi or in the loins how does it go all of a sudden

01:30:05

I'm having a senior moment I'm sorry it was in the loins of somebody oh in the loins of Aaron were

01:30:19

Levi and I believe in the loins of Adam were all of us because I believe we are all

01:30:26

Adam's offspring so we carry that original sin that total of gravity that Adam chose for us and we would have done the same thing and that's what

01:30:38

Romans 5 tells us alrighty, would you like to go on to how should we then feel yeah,

01:30:47

I'm sorry that was a little play on words because this is an epidemic in American culture how you feel now becomes the arbiter of truth and what they believe or what they mean by that is how

01:31:05

I think but they're using the word feelings Ben Shapiro often says facts don't care about your feelings and he is right facts don't care about your feelings how you feel is not important how you feel is not truth you can feel something all day long and you could be sincerely wrong what we have to do is go back to what the

01:31:31

Bible says and so the Bible is our arbiter of truth not how we feel you know let me throw into the mix here since we had in the very beginning of the program a question from a

01:31:46

Pentecostal listener there is a two edged sword in what

01:31:54

I'm about to say on the one hand Pentecostals and Charismatics attribute far far too much importance to how they feel during a worship service the

01:32:10

Holy Ghost goosebumps we should never use our feelings as the final arbiter of whether or not what we are either hearing preached or proclaimed or what we are doing in a worship service dancing around doing cartwheels and so on we should never use how we are feeling as an arbiter of whether it's truly of God and at the same time those in our theological circles, theologically reformed churches and it's not exclusive to us but there are others who can be just as stoic in their or emotionless in their worship we on the other hand have to be careful that we do not offer to God a worship that is devoid of evidence that we really are grateful to Him for everything and that we really do love

01:33:12

Him from the depths of our soul which will produce emotions now not everybody produces emotions the same way but we are too frequently accurately described as having funeral services every

01:33:27

Sunday but if you could comment on what I said the two extremes there yeah one of the things

01:33:33

I tell people is feelings do not lead they follow there you go so whatever is

01:33:43

I can remember one time I was at a political rally because just for your listeners to know

01:33:51

I used to be a county director for Christian Coalition and that was back in the 90's

01:34:01

I got to meet a lot of dignitaries what was the name man

01:34:07

I'm having a senior moment the congressman from Georgia Newt Gingrich and I got to meet him and I got to be on stage with him and I thought

01:34:18

I had arrived I can remember Newt is a great speaker and he was speaking and I can remember thinking

01:34:29

I have the same emotions that I do when I hear somebody preach the unadulterated gospel but it wasn't the same he wasn't presenting the gospel and what

01:34:47

I had to do was I had to get my emotions in check because my emotions were not the arbiter of truth

01:34:56

God's word is the arbiter of truth and you know too many

01:35:03

Christians put stock on their feelings there was this comedian one time

01:35:10

Mark Lowry have you ever heard of him? Mark was talking about when he wakes up at 3 o 'clock in the morning to go to the bathroom and he said he figured out what toes are for to find the corner of furniture at 3 in the morning

01:35:29

I thought that was funny and while he was going to the bathroom he said I didn't feel like a

01:35:36

Christian but it didn't change the fact that I was a Christian and I thought that's a good illustration now

01:35:45

I do have emotions and feelings in a worship service

01:35:52

I do have emotions and feelings when I hear the word of God but they are not the arbiter of truth because I also have emotions and feelings when

01:36:04

I heard Newt Gingrich speak that day and it is not the same thing and we need to get away from that I feel we have so many people say

01:36:16

I watch Judge Judy a lot and Judge Judy said this young girl came up to one of the lecterns and Judge Judy was asking her a question and she goes well

01:36:31

I feel and Judge Judy said the same thing I didn't ask you how you feel I asked him what he said and we have to remember that when it comes to the word of God not how you feel but what

01:36:43

God said our feelings can definitely and often do and have always since the dawn of time played tricks on us and we have to go to our final commercial break and this is your last opportunity if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own submit it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:37:07

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that's PTLBibleRebinding .com Every day at thousands of community centers high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts

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We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus. Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

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that's liyfc .org It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world

01:42:05

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed

01:42:13

Dr. Joe Moorcraft I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland Going back to 2005, one of my very favourite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and Dr.

01:42:51

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the

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Great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers

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Scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the

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Triune God that continues in eternity For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit

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HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com

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Or call 678 -954 -7831 That's 678 -954 -7831

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That's 678 -954 -7831 If you visit, tell them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, sent you

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Oh hail the power of Jesus' name

01:44:01

Oh hail the power of Jesus' name Oh hail the power of Jesus' name This is Pastor Bill Sasso, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:44:29

Lord Jesus Christ And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some

01:44:49

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

01:45:02

That's gracechurchatfranklin .org This is

01:45:07

Pastor Bill Sasso wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always

01:45:25

Amen NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB NASB if you would.

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All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

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That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

01:48:44

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:49:51

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:50:07

Welcome back. I want to remind our listeners that this program is always paid for in part by my very dear friend, dating back to the early 1990s,

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Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law of the law firm, Buttafuoco & Associates.

01:50:23

If you are the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice, no matter where you live in the

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United States, please call my friend Dan Buttafuoco at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit

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Dan's website for Buttafuoco & Associates at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .COM, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .COM.

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Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Aronson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Also, if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free biannual

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon to be held on Thursday, June the 6th, 11 a .m.

01:51:01

to 2 p .m. at the Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is

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Perry County. And not only are you going to have a free meal, and everybody is going to enjoy a free day of fun, fellowship, rest, and relaxation and edification from our keynote speaker for the first time,

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Not only is all that for free, you're also going to be receiving, as everyone who attends will be receiving, a free heavy sack of brand new books personally selected by me and donated by generous

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Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom. If you'd like to register for this free event on June the 6th, send me an email to chrisaronson at gmail .com

01:51:56

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. And we are now back with my guest,

01:52:01

Jerry Johnson. Today is Uncle Jerry's HodgePodge Lodge, where you could submit questions on any topic that you choose.

01:52:11

And our email address is chrisaronson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

01:52:20

And I want to let you know that we have a listener named

01:52:26

Tracy, just like your lovely wife's name, Jerry. Tracy in Noble, Oklahoma.

01:52:34

And Tracy says, isn't one of the dangers of the

01:52:41

Pentecostal movement that they attribute things to God that are often nonsensical and are absolutely at times completely absurd and ridiculous, and yet people are afraid to question the authenticity of these things because they are being claimed by their favorite preacher or even a close friend as being of divine origin and from heaven?

01:53:12

Yeah, that's an excellent question, and I'll tell you how that actually manifested itself.

01:53:18

I don't know if you saw this, Jerry, but there was a fascinating round table discussion between two charismatics,

01:53:28

Samuel Storms, who actually is, believe it or not, a five -point

01:53:34

Calvinist and theologically reformed, but he is also a charismatic, full -blown charismatic.

01:53:43

And his participant in agreement with him was

01:53:51

Michael Brown, Jewish believer and charismatic, and the two cessationists involved were

01:53:57

Justin Peters and his former pastor, Jim Osmond.

01:54:06

And during that discussion, things kept coming up. For instance, a apparently well -known and highly revered charismatic leader—revered in those circles, that is—said that Jesus Christ appeared at his bedside or at the foot of his bed playing the saxophone.

01:54:32

And the two charismatics, although they chuckled at this and said that that kind of thing is very unlikely, they could not say it didn't happen.

01:54:47

I could say it didn't happen. But they even challenged Justin Peters and Jim Osmond, how do you know it didn't happen?

01:54:57

So when John was on the Isle of Patmos, he saw the risen

01:55:04

Lord, and he gives a description, and he said, I fell down at his feet as dead.

01:55:11

Isn't it interesting that a lot of these charismatic leaders claim to have a vision of Christ?

01:55:18

I read one one time where Kenneth Copeland was talking about him like he had just come off a dusty street in Jerusalem.

01:55:27

That isn't the same one that the apostle John saw. I don't know who he saw.

01:55:33

In fact, Kenneth Copeland believes God the Father has a physical body, much the same size and weight as Kenneth Copeland, of course, which is a heresy in and of itself.

01:55:47

Yes, it is. Very Mormon. When somebody says they had a vision of the risen

01:55:54

Lord, I usually let it drip off of me like water off a duck's back.

01:56:01

I don't believe it. And it astounds me that nobody has ever said they probably will now, but nobody has ever said, oh,

01:56:13

I saw a vision of the risen Lord and I couldn't stand up in his presence.

01:56:19

John fell down. Daniel felt sick, you know, and it actually took a touch from the

01:56:26

Lord to make him stand back up. Now, let me ask you a question about that.

01:56:32

Do you put a lot of stock in the fact that critics of the charismatic movement, cessationists, will say that being slain in the spirit as they are in Pentecostal and charismatic churches is unbiblical because they fall backward in Pentecostal and charismatic circles?

01:56:59

And in the Bible, those that are falling backward are under judgment. The people who are worshiping

01:57:05

God and fall because of his glory, being the presence of his glory, fall forward. Is that a trivial distinction?

01:57:13

I think it is. But part of the problem is the only place we find slain in the spirit is in Acts chapter 5,

01:57:24

Ananias and Zechariah. They were literally slain in the spirit. The shady real estate agents.

01:57:31

And, you know, the thing is, when it comes to slain in the spirit, again, if you look at Daniel, he fell down on his face.

01:57:42

If you fall backwards like they do in charismatic and Pentecostal circles, it reminds me of a

01:57:49

Bugs Bunny cartoon where they're hitting Wile E. Coyote in a face with a frying pan, you know, then go back.

01:57:55

And that is not when you lose all strength, you would lose it in your knees and you would automatically fall forward.

01:58:05

You wouldn't fall backward. And I just don't buy it.

01:58:10

I don't buy the whole slain in the spirit. Let me tell you this, Chris, and I know we're probably going to have to go.

01:58:17

But I it was years later, I talked to people that had gone to that church of God that had all sorts of supposed

01:58:28

Holy Spirit manifestations. Now, at this point, I didn't believe any of them.

01:58:34

And I interviewed all of them. And every single one, when it came to the nitty gritty, none of them were in the faith now.

01:58:41

And when I interviewed them, they all said they had faked it. And I thought that I thought that it was interesting.

01:58:49

I did want to make this one point. Do we have to go? Yes. Then I'll save it for next time.

01:58:55

In fact, we have three different subjects you wanted to address that we'll save for. Well, I still wanted this.

01:59:00

I still wanted to finish that. How should we then feel? Okay, we could pick that up when we return the next time.

01:59:09

All right. And I want to thank everybody who listened. If you want to get a hold of Jerry, send me an email to ChrisArmsin at gmail .com

01:59:16

and I will forward that to him. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.