August 22, 2023 Show with Matt Trewhella on “The Gospel at War with Big Eva”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 22nd day of August, 2023.

I want to give another update on my brother Andy who is in a local nursing home here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. As those of you who have been listening recently regularly will know, my brother Andy has a very deadly blood infection called sepsis.

Many people die from this. It shuts down the vital organs. Thankfully, the intravenous antibiotics he's been receiving seem to have been very effective. He has not declined in his health at all yet, and hopefully permanently.

In fact, there was so much of the antibiotic in his system that they had to stop giving it to him for two days because of that fact. There was too high of a level of antibiotics still in his bloodstream.

So, they had to give him a rest for a couple of days, and this is the second day they are not administering the antibiotics. But please keep praying for Andy. I am not settled with a confident piece that he is a true believer.

He may be, but it is hard to tell because his profession has been very inconsistent for decades. But please pray that above all else that the Lord does save him if he's not already saved and that his profession is crystal clear to me so I do not have any lingering doubts as to where he will spend eternity if the Lord should choose to take him off this planet.

Of course, as I already said, please pray for physical healing for him as well. I will keep you updated on the progress of Andy in the days ahead. Today, we have as a returning guest one of my favorite guests to interview.

His name is Matt Trujillo. He is an author, a conference speaker, an activist for the rights of the unborn, for unborn children, and of the rights of evangelical Christians. He is the pastor of Mercy Seat Christian Church of Brookfield, Wisconsin.

Today, we are going to be addressing the gospel at war with Big Eva. We are also going to be announcing a three-day conference where Matt Trujillo is speaking along with keynote speaker Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries here in Pennsylvania to be more specific, Lancaster County, and even more specific, Mannheim, Pennsylvania.

That will be a three-day conference September 15th, 16th, and 17th, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And we will give you more details momentarily. But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Eintrep and Zion Radio, Matt Trujillo.

Really good to be with you, Chris. Thank you for having me again. I appreciate it.

And by the way, I don't know if you are aware of this, but I was watching not long ago my friend Dr. James R. White's webcast, The Dividing Line. Dr. James R. White, who I just mentioned, is the keynote speaker at the upcoming Future of Christendom conference in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

But Dr. White was giving you kudos for basically a sermon he was giving to police officers after the arrest of that young man who was protesting at a drag queen event for families out at some park in Wisconsin.

And Dr. White actually showed the film clip of you speaking to these police officers. So he was extremely impressed and thankful for what you did there. If you want to give our listeners some idea of what happened there, that'd be great.

The Lesser Magistrate and the Police Response to Drag Queen Events

Yeah, no, that's tremendous that he did that. Yeah, we were out there on July 29th, and, you know, they're having a drag queen show for kids in a park, Riverside Park. You have a Christian Baptist Bible college there in the town, lots of Bible-believing churches.

Unfortunately, there was only one pastor for the whole town who came out to speak against this evil and to point the attendees to Christ. There were two other pastors there with all the homosexuals and drag queens promoting the evil, one from the United Church of Christ, one from the United Methodist.

So there was a pastor there who invited us to come. And so we came, you know, to reach out, speak out. We probably had about 30 people from our church, and there was about 100 Christians in all. And it caused quite a bit of a stir being out there.

But it went good at the beginning, but then turned different with the police. And they end up arresting and taking into custody four different people, including the young man who, you know, his arrest went viral across the nation.

He's a young man who attends our congregation. And so while they had arrested these first group of people, there were three of them. One of them was my 16-year-old daughter, Margaret. And they took him across the parking lot into this command post.

There was no reason for them to be taken into custody. In fact, my daughter was released without any charges whatsoever. But you have like 10 or 12 policemen standing out there outside their command post while my daughter's inside.

So I was like, well, here's an opportunity. So I just shared with them their role and function regarding the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, that their mayor and their city council have all sided with wicked people and have decided to celebrate the drag queens.

And if you saw it, Chris, you would have been absolutely appalled. These are men dressed as women in the most bizarre fashion, very lewd. Most of them dressed very lewdly. And then there's the adults and the children as the drag queens are coming out into the crowd, giving them dollar bills like they're at a strip joint or something.

Amazing.

This is most base evil.

And by the way, if I may correct you, drag queens typically are not dressed as women. They're dressed as cartoons of women. And there is really zero difference between what they do and what racists early in the 20th century and in the late 19th century, perhaps earlier, used to do when they would wear blackface and put on minstrel shows.

There is no difference between what these so-called drag queens are doing. They are, what they are doing, whether they admit it or not, is very clearly a mockery.

Of women.

And there should be no woman, no matter how liberal she is, who should want to tolerate.

That.

I agree with you fully. So what's happened is, you know, the homosexuals have captured influence in every major city in America now. They have the force of law behind them and within the judiciary, within the courts, within law enforcement.

And so now they've come out into the countryside, into the old country, at least that's what they're doing out here in the Midwest, trying to bring their influence to every town, hamlet and village in the state of Wisconsin.

And what's amazing is, is that often how this is brought in is through NGOs, non-government organizations or private organizations who come in to the town or village with money, lots of money. And if they'll go along with this, you know, plan of pushing homosex and drag queen story hours, yeah, you get the money.

If you don't, they also come with the flanks of lawyers. So the magistrates are either dazzled by the money and go along with the evil or they're intimidated by the lawyers and they go along with the money, with the evil.

And that's why it's so important for Christian people to respond to this filth. I tell all the Christian people who contact me in towns and villages here in Wisconsin about what is happening, like what happened in Watertown, I tell them, you have to confront it.

If you don't confront it within five years, you won't even recognize your community. That's how pervasive the filth is that they're pushing upon these young people. So anyway, while we're standing out there, I took opportunity to speak.

If people want to see it, it's two and a half minutes long. They can go to our Rumble channel. We have a channel at Rumble .com called Defy Tyrants. And if you go there, you can find my two and a half minute talk to the police officers, which essentially was the fact that they're not mere robots for the state, that they'll answer to God and that this is evil.

And their duty is to go across the street, according to Romans 13, and punish the evil doers and that they had perverted their entire God given role by not punishing the evil doers, but actually punishing those who do good.

They had completely turned their God given purpose on its head. And we actually have statutes here in Wisconsin, making it clear the sexualization of children is not tolerated. And what they were doing at the Drag Queen, Chris, was sexualizing children.

So the police made a clear decision to stand with the mayor and the city council and let them go on breaking the law while at the same time arresting the good people, the Christians who had come out to speak against the filth and appoint those attending to Christ.

By the way, I would love to have you back on the program at some point in the future, perhaps with a couple of friends of mine who are retired Christian police officers, so we could discuss the policeman's role in being a part of the lesser magistrate and perhaps a warning to police officers who are still active in their duties to be prepared if they are indeed Christians, that they must resist their authorities when they are being told to sin against God's people.

So I think that would be a great concept for a program in the future.

Yeah, I would love to do that. I think it's massively important for us to reach. And we've been doing trying to do this for years, reach the lowest of the low when it comes to the law enforcement. They need to understand their duty in the sight of God.

They have to understand their role, their function, the limits of their office. Of course, most of Christianity has abandoned the civil realm. So most magistrates don't have any idea what their role, function and limits are, according to the word of God, not even according to the U .S. Constitution or their state constitution.

In June of this year, I actually spoke. I was asked to give the sermon at the National Sheriffs Association, which was held in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And we put out hundreds of my books to law enforcement, to the sheriffs that were gathered there, spent many hours talking to sheriffs and others within the sheriff departments so that they would understand this doctrine and was able to give a sermon to them for their prayer breakfast on the most sacred duty of a civil magistrate was the title of my sermon.

So I'm with you. I think we're at the point in this country where this really matters because you have wicked men sitting in positions of power and they just want to use law enforcement for their own wicked ends to enforce the evil that they want to bring about in the culture.

And the policemen need to know, the sheriffs need to know, your duty is interposition to say, no, I will not go along with the evil. I will stand in opposition to it. Amen.

Well, let's now hear about Mercy Seat Christian Church in Brookfield, Wisconsin.

Sure. Yeah, well, I've been pastoring Mercy Seat for 35 years now. And we have about 250 people that attend at Mercy Seat. And we're the type of congregation who, you know, is involved in the marketplace.

We actually go to the universities, go to the high schools, go to prisons, go to the magistrates of all stripes from state magistrates down to municipal, of course, including county magistrates. We speak at public hearings regarding evil that's being done to stand in opposition to it and bring God's view.

We are his ambassadors, of course, as his people. And so that's a little bit. We have people from all ages, almost everybody homeschools. But yeah, we have lots of little kids all the way up to lots of old people.

So it's a great congregation. I love pastoring there. Great.

If anybody wants more information about this fine congregation, go to mercyseat .net, mercyseat .net. And now we are going to enter into the theme of our program today, which is also the theme of at least one of your lectures.

I'm not sure how many times you're speaking at the upcoming Future of Christendom conference. But we are going to be speaking on today on the theme that you're speaking on at the conference, at least one of the themes, the gospel at war with Big Eva.

And if you could explain, I know that Big Eva is a nickname. If you could explain what that means for our listeners who are confused by that name Big Eva. Big Eva is not a barmaid at your local Irish pub.

It has something to do with something completely different. If you could let our listeners know.

Big Eva and the History of Evangelicalism

Yeah, absolutely. When Joel St. told me, this is going to be your topic, the gospel at war with Big Eva, I just sat there thinking, who's Big Eva?

I saw you hadn't heard the nickname either.

No, not at all. And I realized as we get older, we don't keep up. We're kind of out of the loop, right? Certain trends or whatever. But I'm like, I'm pretty into things. I've never heard this term before.

So I immediately got off the, you know, the phone call with him and began to search Big Eva and come to find out Big Eva is Big Evangelicalism. And so this is a very stretching topic for me to speak on.

So I'm glad he gave me such a topic because I like being stretched. But Big Eva is Big Evangelicalism. Some people try to make it about certain individuals. For example, Tim Keller, other people try to make it about individuals and also about organizations like the Gospel Coalition.

But really what I think it is is it's a force. It's an influencer that's found throughout our entire nation in hampering the form of Christianity, bringing about the awful form of Christianity that we have in America today.

So when I speak on it, I'm going to give a little bit of some of the history behind Evangelicalism, modern-day Evangelicalism.

Oh, sure, definitely.

Because as you understand, you know, a lot of the Reformers were known as Evangelicals 500 years ago.

Things always seem to—names, nicknames, labels seem to wear out their meaning after a while. As a fundamentalist, for instance, I would have proudly worn the label fundamentalist during the fundamentalist-modernist controversy.

But today it has so much baggage attached to it that people do not really— they have a caricature typically of where you stand on many things before they even know what you believe. And, of course, that is why some even thoroughgoing Calvinists don't like to be called Reformed because they know that there is a church down the block called the First Reformed Church or something.

And it has gone totally apostate and liberal. So it's unfortunate that the things that begin as good labels very often wear out their meaning. But if you could go ahead where you were, where I interrupted you.

Yeah, sure, no. Yeah, no, that's fine. In fact, you know, the term fundamentalist, I was actually—30 years ago, when I was heavily involved on behalf of the pre-born, getting incarcerated a lot, interposing at these death camps, the media always referred to me as a fundamentalist minister.

And, of course, they mean it as a term of derision. And to be called an Evangelical at that time was much better. And so part of the reason being called Evangelical was much better was because they viewed—the media I'm talking about— viewed that as much more in tune with their worldview, whereas the fundamentalist actually would uphold God's worldview.

So we don't like him. But, yeah, you're right. They use these terms in order to paint people into a caricature. And then, yeah, it's difficult to get freed from it.

Yeah, it's interesting how the leftist media will rarely use that label for Muslims. Fundamentally.

Right. No, that's exactly right. And when you look at the Evangelicalism that developed during the 50s and the 60s, a lot of history on this. There was a huge battle within what was known as Evangelicalism because there was a shift.

And a lot of it had to do with Billy Graham, Evangelistic Association, Christianity Today magazine, Harold Okenga, all these guys. They basically wanted to shift Christianity from being defined, a Christian being defined from doctrine to mere experience.

Have you been born again?

As though it's an either or. It's a both and. Your Christianity is defined by doctrine, whether you're in the faith or out of the faith. And at the same time, yeah, if you haven't been born again, haven't had that born again experience, you're not right with God.

You're not forgiven of your sins. So it's not an either or, but they wanted to make it more that way for the purpose of bringing in the mainline denominations into Evangelicalism. So they kind of had a good idea about it, although plenty of people warned them, like Lloyd Martin Jones warned them, don't do that, that you're going to corrupt what Evangelicalism is.

And lo and behold, when we can look back now, we can see that he was right, they were wrong. Evangelicalism was watered down because of wanting to cater to the mainline denominations, hoping to maybe flip them back to true Christianity.

It didn't work. Everybody can look at the mainline denominations today, and they're all apostate as can be. But that was the shift that took place, and this was a huge fight back in the 50s and 60s. And Graham himself, Billy Graham, right before they put Christianity Today, the magazine, on the map, was writing to a professor at Fuller Seminary.

I forget his name now. I think it was Lindsey. And he told them, he said, we're going to plant the flag of Evangelicalism right in the middle of the road between theological conservatism and liberal social action.

That's what he said. And so, me as a young man, when I converted to Christ in 1978, and then in the 80s and 90s, was reading Christianity Today, which, by the way, is nothing but yellow journalism and isn't worth the time.

But I would read these things, and I would always notice that they would stand, when it came to social issues, on the liberal or leftist side. It didn't matter if it was birth control, didn't matter if it was abortion, didn't matter if it was egalitarianism, mothers at work, homosex, divorce, always leaned clearly towards the side of liberalism.

You mean even decades ago?

It was that way from the beginning.

Wow.

What's that?

Even decades ago, it was that far to the left.

Very much so. Absolutely. I used to read the magazine, and I would be just bothered. And I would think, why would they write like this? Well, it was all embedded from the very foundation of the magazine itself.

So, there was this huge split within evangelicalism. Another person who wrote about it, to some extent, was Francis Schaeffer. Rush Juney wrote about it. North wrote about it, to some extent. And there's others who wrote extensively on the battle that took place within evangelicalism.

Unfortunately, the overriding influence was the bad form of evangelicalism, the kind that wants to be liked, doesn't want to offend, wants nothing to do with confronting the idols and evils and tyrants of our day, and thinks you're a bad Christian if you do confront those things.

And I've dealt with that all my life, contending with this mentality within evangelicalism, where you just be a nice guy, sit inside your building, tell people to come and participate in your programs, totally against what Christ said.

He said, go out. I mean, the Old Testament paradigm was natural, racial Israel, geographical Israel, followed the Lord, the other nations saw what they were doing and were drawn towards the Lord through their faithful living to Him.

The New Testament turned that on its head, and Christ said, go out. But most churches, most Christians, they still want to follow the Old Testament paradigm and invite everybody in. And they use all kinds of little programs and stuff to get people to come in, when the duty is to go out.

Christ's kingdom is to invade every area of a nation and a culture. But Big Eva doesn't want anything to do with that. And if you actually see God's law being implemented within the civil realm, which should be, they actually attack that.

Like a recent example would be Uganda. And they passed laws regarding homosex in keeping with God's law regarding homosex. And all of Big Eva became unglued, including Russell Moore and others, attacking Uganda for simply doing what we should be doing here in America.

Even Ted Cruz, who I actually supported Ted in the Republican primary when President Trump first won the election. I was not supporting Trump in the primary that year. I was supporting Ted Cruz. And I was dismayed with the severity with which he attacked Uganda for that.

And there was also a gross exaggeration of Uganda's position, because they were talking about people who were unrepentant pedophiles and those imposing sexual activity against disabled people and on and on.

So the whole thing was being exaggerated by the left. And by the way, ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry that I'm echoing back. We're going to hopefully try to rectify that situation sometime soon. But in fact, we're going to go to the first commercial break.

And I'm going to ask my guest, Matt, I don't know if you have headphones you can wear, but if you have an ability to wear headphones and shut the speakers off, that may be able to help prevent me from echoing back every time I speak.

Or at least turn the speakers down as much as you can. But we're going to our first commercial break. And if you would like to submit a question of your own for Matt Trujillo, our e-mail address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Give this first name at least, city and state and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are critiquing the church that you are actually a member of, and you might even be an elder or a pastor of that church, and you disagree with your own elders over something we're discussing today, and you feel compelled to remain anonymous at this point, and I don't blame you.

That is a no-brainer. But if you're just asking a general question about what our guest is speaking on today, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back with Matt Trujillo.

Don't go away.

The Mid-Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference. Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

So come join us for the sixth Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church.

This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the G3 National Conference.

That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries. And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code G3ISIR. That's G3ISIR for the 30 discount. Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there. Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group.

And an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program. The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close-circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off-site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices. From simple code-activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the SecureComm Group has it.

We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems. In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network. Whether it's a Wi-Fi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates. For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, praise God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the American Gem Society, Jewelers of America, and the Gemological Institute of America.

For the perfect custom-designed engagement ring or any one-of-a-kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications, Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step-by-step through every stage of the process and even hold a high-tech internet virtual visit using state-of-the-art jewelry design technology to serve you.

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you. From rough design to digital model to photorealistic image to wax prototype model to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations. Visit royaldiadem .com. That's royaldiadem .com today. Sterling Vandewerker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife, Bronnie, his business partner and manager, Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please don't forget, folks, royaldiadem .com is still offering Iron Sharpens Iron Radio this mind-blowing opportunity where they are going to give us 100 of the profits from any sale of jewelry to an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener simply by that listener mentioning Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when they make their purchase.

So whether you're purchasing jewelry already in stock at royaldiadem .com or if you're having a customized piece of jewelry created like an engagement ring, like taking your church logo, your parachurch ministry logo, your denomination logo, or your seminary logo and turning it into a pendant for a necklace or a ring or other piece of jewelry or anything else that your imagination and creativity can conjure up in your brain, they will take what's in your brain and turn it into a physical piece of jewelry that will blow your mind.

I've seen firsthand the mastery that they have over customizing jewelry and you are assured to be satisfied with the final product because you are involved in every single step of the customization process.

No matter where in the world you live, as long as you have a computer, through the miracle of computer technology, you will be able to see every phase visually of the customization process and make changes in every step of the way.

You could say, hey, I like this, but I hate this. Can you make this bigger and that smaller? Can you change the color of this stone and on and on and on? Then when you finally go through all of the phases of the customization process and after your corrections, if any, or your changes, if any, are utilized in the creation of this piece of jewelry, they will mail to you wherever you live in the world a wax prototype, a three-dimensional wax prototype of the final product that you can hold in your hand and observe and look at at every angle, and then when you finally approve of that to be cast into a final piece of jewelry, they will do that very thing and your customized piece of jewelry will be ready not long after that.

So if you have any interest in purchasing a piece of jewelry for yourself or someone you love, I ask of you to do it very soon because we have no idea when RoyalDiadem .com is going to pull the plug on this amazing offer where we get 100 of the profits from the sale.

So go to RoyalDiadem .com, RoyalDiadem .com, and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio. We are now back with our guest today, Matt Trujillo, and we are discussing the theme that he is going to be addressing at the upcoming Future of Christendom Conference in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, September 15th through the 17th, featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

And by the way, to register for that conference, go to futureofchristendom .org, futureofchristendom .org. The sooner you register, the quicker, or should I say, the least expensive your registration fee will be.

And I continue to apologize for the feedback, the echoing of my words. Right now I have no way of correcting that situation, but hopefully by some miracle it will stop. And by the way, on Saturday, September 16th, Dr. James R. White will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, and the theme will be, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

Saturday, September 16th, 3 .30 p .m. to 6 .30 p .m., and you will also get free refreshments and free lunch with your registration that day. But we are back, as I said, with my guest Matt Trujillo. We do have a listener.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island. And Ronald asks, Would an element of Big Eva be that numbers are more important than anything, even if this is unconsciously so? So, in order to garner larger numbers and draw more visitors and even members into your congregations, the truth is watered down and candy-coated to be more appealing to the masses.

So, wouldn't that mean, at its root, Big Eva and its heresies are rooted in Arminianism, even if unconsciously so? Because, sadly, even many Reformed churches, or at least Reformed by name, have begun to mimic the Arminians' megachurch model.

So, he's asking if you agree with that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, it's part of it because they actually teach you that at Bible college. They teach you that at the Christian universities. When you're going into ministry, they teach you that at the seminaries.

The fact that they teach you different things. Keep things level, you know, not deep. And you'll have more people who will be there. Another one is, build a new building, and they will come. I mean, they literally teach these things.

So that if you, you know, build a new building, you can figure there's going to be X number of people who are going to come just because they like a nice building and they like a new building. So, these are very common things.

So, this is the field of dreams. Strategy, then, you say?

That's the field of dreams strategy, yes. That's what they're hoping for. And, unfortunately, it seems to work. I mean, one thing I routinely run into is people who attend churches, large evangelical churches, smaller evangelical churches, where the ministers have a very hard time speaking any word against homosex, whatsoever.

And so the people in the congregations actually end up believing their view of homosex. And one of the big tenets attached to that is all sins are the same, which they're not. And because they don't read the Bible themselves, their churchmen don't exegete or exposit the passages of Scripture themselves.

The people sitting in the pews are so massively ignorant of Scripture, Chris, that it's easy for them not to even know when their minister isn't properly setting forth the Word of God. So, yeah, there's a desire to keep it that way because numbers plays a big role.

When I was in a denomination 30-some years ago, when all the ministers would get together, that was the biggest thing. Do you have a new building program? How many people attend your church? These were the things that mattered to them.

What's your income for the congregation? Those were the things that mattered to all of them. And I'll tell you, when I left the denomination, I felt like a purity of God returned to my heart because it's ugly.

So, yeah, your caller's right on on that.

By the way, I want to give you an example of Romans 828 in this particular phenomenon that you've been talking about. There was a church that was located here in Pennsylvania that was one of these churches that has, as a mindset, build a beautiful building and they will come.