August 22, 2023 Show with Matt Trewhella on “The Gospel at War with Big Eva”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 22nd day of August, 2023.

I want to give another update on my brother Andy, who is in a local nursing home here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

As those of you who have been listening recently regularly will know, my brother

Andy has a very deadly blood infection called sepsis.

Many people die from this. It shuts down the vital organs. Thankfully, the intravenous antibiotics he's been receiving seem to have been very effective.

He has not declined in his health at all yet, and hopefully permanently.

In fact, there was so much of the antibiotic in his system that they had to stop giving it to him for two days because of that fact.

There was too high of a level of antibiotics still in his bloodstream.

So they had to give him a rest for a couple of days, and this is the second day they are not administering the antibiotics.

But please keep praying for Andy. I am not settled with a confident piece that he is a true believer.

He may be, but it is hard to tell because his profession has been very inconsistent for decades.

But please pray that above all else that the Lord does save him if he's not already saved and that his profession is crystal clear to me so I do not have any lingering doubts as to where he will spend eternity if the

Lord should choose to take him off this planet. And of course, as I've already said, please pray for physical healing for him as well.

And I will keep you updated on the progress of Andy in the days ahead.

And today we have as a returning guest one of my favorite guests to interview.

His name is Matt Trujillo. He's an author, a conference speaker, an activist for the rights of the unborn, for unborn children, and of the rights of evangelical

Christians. He is the pastor of Mercy Seat Christian Church of Brookfield, Wisconsin.

And today we're going to be addressing the gospel at war with Big Eva. And we're also going to be announcing a three -day conference where Matt Trujillo is speaking along with keynote speaker

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries here in Pennsylvania, to be more specific,

Lancaster County, and even more specific, Mannheim, Pennsylvania. That will be a three -day conference,

September 15th, 16th, and 17th, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And we will give you more details momentarily.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Matt Trujillo. Really good to be with you,

Chris. Thank you for having me again. I appreciate it. And by the way, I don't know if you are aware of this, but I was watching not long ago my friend

Dr. James R. White's webcast, The Dividing Line, Dr. James R. White, who

I just mentioned is the keynote speaker at the upcoming Future of Christendom conference in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

But Dr. White was giving you kudos for basically a sermon he was giving to police officers after the arrest of that young man who was protesting at a drag queen event for families out at some park in Wisconsin.

And Dr. White actually showed the film clip of you speaking to these police officers.

So he was extremely impressed and thankful for what you did there. If you want to give our listeners some idea of what happened there, that'd be great.

Yeah, no, that's tremendous that he did that. Yeah, we were out there on July 29th and, you know, they're having a drag queen show for kids in a park,

Riverside Park. You have a Christian Baptist Bible college there in the town, lots of Bible -believing churches.

Unfortunately, there was only one pastor for the whole town who came out to speak against this evil and to point the attendees to Christ.

There were two other pastors there with all the homosexuals and drag queens promoting the evil, one from the

United Church of Christ, one from the United Methodist. So there was a pastor there who invited us to come.

And so we came, you know, to reach out, speak out. We probably had about 30 people from our church and there was about 100

Christians in all. And it caused quite a bit of a stir being out there.

But it went good at the beginning, but then turned different with the police.

And they end up arresting and taking into custody four different people, including the young man who, you know, his arrest went viral across the nation.

He's a young man who attends our congregation. And so while they had arrested these first group of people, there were three of them.

One of them was my 16 -year -old daughter, Margaret, and they took him across the parking lot into this command post.

There was no reason for them to be taken into custody. In fact, my daughter was released without any charges whatsoever.

But you have like 10 or 12 policemen standing out there outside their command post while my daughter's inside.

So I was like, well, here's an opportunity. So I just shared with them their role and function regarding the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, that their mayor and their city council have all sided with wicked people and have decided to celebrate the drag queens.

And if you saw it, Chris, you would have been absolutely appalled. These are men dressed as women in the most bizarre fashion, very lewd.

Most of them dressed very lewdly. And then there's the adults and the children as the drag queens are coming out into the crowd, giving them dollar bills like they're at a strip joint or something.

This is most base evil. And by the way, if I may correct you, drag queens typically are not dressed as women.

They're dressed as cartoons of women. And there is really zero difference between what they do and what racists earlier in the 20th century and in the late 19th century, perhaps earlier, used to do when they would wear blackface and put on minstrel shows.

There is no difference between what these so -called drag queens are doing. They are what they are doing, whether they admit it or not, is very clearly a mockery and there should be no woman, no matter how liberal she is, who should want to tolerate that.

I agree with you fully. So what's happened is, you know, the homosexuals have captured influence in every major city in America now.

They have the force of law behind them. And within the judiciary, within the courts, within law enforcement.

And so now they've come out into the countryside, into the old country, at least that's what they're doing out here in the

Midwest, trying to bring their influence to every town, hamlet and village in the state of Wisconsin.

And what's amazing is, is that often how this is brought in is through NGOs, non -government organizations or private organizations who come in to the town or village with money, lots of money.

And if they'll go along with this, you know, plan of pushing homosex and drag queen story hours, yeah, you get the money.

If you don't, they also come with the flanks of lawyers. So the magistrates are either dazzled by the money and go along with the evil or they're intimidated by the lawyers and they go along with the money, with the evil.

And that's why it's so important for Christian people to respond to this filth. I tell all the

Christian people who contact me in towns and villages here in Wisconsin about what is happening, like what happened in Watertown, I tell them, you have to confront it.

If you don't confront it within five years, you won't even recognize your community. That's how pervasive the filth is that they're pushing upon these young people.

So anyway, while we're standing out there, I took opportunity to speak. If people want to see it, it's two and a half minutes long.

They can go to our Rumble channel. We have a channel at rumble .com called

Defy Tyrants. And if you go there, you can find my two and a half minute talk to the police officers, which essentially was the fact that they're not mere robots for the state, that they'll answer to God and that this is evil.

And their duty is to go across the street, according to Romans 13, and punish the evildoers and that they had perverted their entire

God -given role by not punishing the evildoers, but actually punishing those who do good.

They had completely turned their God -given purpose on its head. And we actually have statutes here in Wisconsin, making it clear the sexualization of children is not tolerated.

And what they were doing at the Drag Queen, Chris, was sexualizing children. So the police made a clear decision to stand with the mayor and the city council and let them go on breaking the law while at the same time, arresting the good people, the

Christians who had come out to speak against the filth and to point those attending to Christ. By the way,

I would love to have you back on the program at some point in the future, perhaps with a couple of friends of mine who are retired

Christian police officers, so we could discuss the policeman's role in being a part of the lesser magistrate and perhaps a warning to police officers who are still active in their duties to be prepared if they are indeed

Christians, that they must resist their authorities when they are being told to sin against God's people.

So I think that would be a great concept for a program in the future. Yeah, I would love to do that.

I think it's massively important for us to reach, and we've been doing, trying to do this for years, reach the lowest of the low when it comes to the law enforcement.

They need to understand their duty in the sight of God. They have to understand their role, their function, the limits of their office.

Of course, most of Christianity has abandoned the civil realm, so most magistrates don't have any idea what their role, function, and limits are according to the

Word of God, not even according to the U .S. Constitution or their state constitution.

In June of this year, I actually spoke, I was asked to give the sermon at the

National Sheriffs Association, which was held in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and we put out hundreds of my books to law enforcement, to the sheriffs that were gathered there, spent many hours talking to sheriffs and others within the sheriff departments so that they would understand this doctrine, and was able to give a sermon to them for their prayer breakfast on the most sacred duty of a civil magistrate.

It was the title of my sermon. So I'm with you. I think we're at the point in this country where this really matters, because you have wicked men sitting in positions of power, and they just want to use law enforcement for their own wicked ends to enforce the evil that they want to bring about in the culture.

And the policemen need to know, the sheriffs need to know, your duty is interposition to say, no,

I will not go along with the evil, I will stand in opposition to it. Amen.

Well, let's now hear about Mercy Seat Christian Church in Brookfield, Wisconsin.

Sure. Yeah, well, I've been pastoring Mercy Seat for 35 years now, and we have about 250 people that attend at Mercy Seat.

And we're the type of congregation who, you know, is involved in the marketplace.

We actually go to the universities, go to the high schools, go to prisons, go to the magistrates of all stripes, from state magistrates down to municipal, of course, including county magistrates.

We speak at public hearings regarding evil that's being done to stand in opposition to it and bring

God's view. We are his ambassadors, of course, as his people. And so that's a little bit, we have people from all ages, almost everybody homeschools.

But yeah, we have lots of little kids all the way up to lots of old people. So it's a great congregation.

I love pastoring there. Great. If anybody wants more information about this fine congregation, go to mercyseat .net,

mercyseat .net. Now we are going to enter into the theme of our program today, which is also the theme of at least one of your lectures.

I'm not sure how many times you're speaking at the upcoming Future of Christendom conference, but we are going to be speaking on today, on the theme that you're speaking on at the conference, at least one of the themes, the gospel at war with Big Eva.

And if you could explain, I know that Big Eva is a nickname. If you could explain what that means for our listeners who are confused by that name,

Big Eva. Big Eva is not a barmaid at your local Irish pub. It has something to do with something completely different.

If you could let our listeners know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When Joel Saint asked me, you know, or told me, you know, this is going to be your topic, the gospel at war with Big Eva.

I just sat there thinking, who's Big Eva? I saw you hadn't heard the nickname either.

No, not at all. And I'm like, I know, I realized as we get older, we don't keep up. We're kind of out of the loop, right?

Certain trends or whatever. But I'm like, I'm pretty into things. I've never heard this term before.

So I immediately got off the, you know, the phone call with him and began to search

Big Eva and come to find out Big Eva is Big Evangelicalism. And so this is a very stretching topic for me to speak on.

So I'm glad he gave me such a topic. So I like being stretched. But Big Eva is

Big Evangelicalism. Some people try to make it about certain individuals, for example,

Tim Keller. Other people try to make it about, well, about individuals and also about organizations like the

Gospel Coalition. But really, what I think it is, is it's a force.

It's an influencer that's found throughout our entire nation in hampering the form of bringing about the awful form of Christianity that we have in America today.

So when I speak on it, I'm going to give a little bit of some of the history behind Evangelicalism, modern -day

Evangelicalism. Oh, sure, definitely. Because as you understand, you know, a lot of the

Reformers were known as Evangelicals. Yes. 500 years ago. Things always seem to—names, nicknames, labels seem to wear out their meaning after a while.

As a fundamentalist, for instance, I would have proudly worn the label fundamentalist during the fundamentalist modernist controversy.

But today, it has so much baggage attached to it that people do not really—they have a caricature, typically, of where you stand on many things before they even know what you believe.

And, of course, that is why some even thoroughgoing Calvinists don't like to be called

Reformed, because they know that there is a church down the block called the First Reformed Church or something, and it has gone totally apostate and liberal.

So it's unfortunate that the things that begin as good labels very often wear out their meaning.

But if you could, go ahead, where I interrupted you. Yeah, sure, no. Yeah, no, that's fine.

In fact, you know, the term fundamentalist—I was actually, 30 years ago, when I was heavily involved on behalf of the pre -born, getting incarcerated a lot, interposing at these death camps, the media always referred to me as a fundamentalist minister.

And, of course, they mean it as a term of derision. And to be called an evangelical at that time was much better.

So part of the reason being called evangelical was much better was because they viewed—the media

I'm talking about—viewed that as much more in tune with their worldview, whereas the fundamentalist actually would uphold

God's worldview. So we don't like him. But yeah, you're right.

They use these terms in order to paint people into a caricature. And then, yeah, it's difficult to get freed from it.

Yeah, it's interesting how the leftist media will rarely use that label for Muslims. Fundamentally, yes.

All right. No, that's exactly right. And when you look at the evangelicalism that developed during the 50s and the 60s, a lot of history on this.

There was a huge battle within what was known as evangelicalism because there was a shift, and a lot of it had to do with Billy Graham, Evangelistic Association, Christianity Today magazine,

Harold Okenga, all these guys. They basically wanted to shift Christianity from being defined, a

Christian being defined from doctrine to mere experience.

Have you been born again? As though it's an either or. It's a both and. Your Christianity is defined by doctrine, whether you're in the faith or out of the faith.

And at the same time, yeah, if you haven't been born again, haven't had that born again experience, you're not right with God.

You're not forgiven of your sins. So it's not an either or, but they wanted to make it more that way for the purpose of bringing in the mainline denominations into evangelicalism.

So they kind of had a good idea about it, although plenty of people warned them, like Lloyd Martin Jones warned them, you know, don't do that, that you're going to corrupt what evangelicalism is.

And lo and behold, when we can look back now, we can see that he was right, they were wrong. Evangelicalism was watered down because of wanting to cater to the mainline denominations, hoping to maybe flip them back to true

Christianity. It didn't work. Everybody can look at the mainline denominations today, and they're all apostate as can be.

But that was the shift that took place. And this was a huge fight back in the 50s and 60s.

Graham himself, Billy Graham, right before they put Christianity Today, the magazine, on the map, was writing to a professor at Fuller Seminary, I forget his name now,

I think it was Lindsey. And he told them, he said, we're going to plant the flag of evangelicalism right in the middle of the road between theological conservatism and liberal social action.

That's what he said. And so, me as a young man, when I converted to Christ in 1978, and then in the 80s and 90s, was reading

Christianity Today, which, by the way, is nothing but yellow journalism, and isn't worth the time. But I would read these things, and I would always notice that they would stand, when it came to social issues, on the liberal or leftist side.

It didn't matter if it was birth control, didn't matter if it was abortion, didn't matter if it was egalitarianism, mothers at work, homosex, divorce, always leaned clearly towards the side of liberalism.

You mean, even decades ago? It was that right in the beginning. Wow. What's that? Even decades ago, it was that far to the left.

Very much so. Absolutely. I used to read the magazine, and I would be just bothered.

And I would think, why would they write like this? Well, it was all embedded from the very foundation of the magazine itself.

So, there was this huge split within evangelicalism. Another person who wrote about it, to some extent, was

Francis Schaeffer. Rush Juney wrote about it. Something North wrote about it, to some extent.

And there's others who wrote extensively on the battle that took place within evangelicalism.

Unfortunately, the overriding influence was the bad form of evangelicalism.

The kind that, you know, wants to be liked, doesn't want to offend, wants nothing to do with confronting the idols and evils and tyrants of our day, and thinks you're a bad

Christian if you do confront those things. And I've dealt with that all my life, contending with this mentality within evangelicalism, where you just be a nice guy, sit inside your building, tell people to come and participate in your programs.

Totally against what Christ said. He said, go out. I mean, the Old Testament paradigm was natural, racial

Israel, geographical Israel, followed the Lord. The other nations saw what they were doing and were drawn towards the

Lord through their faithful living to Him. The New Testament turned that on its head, and Christ said, go out.

But most churches, most Christians, they still want to follow the Old Testament paradigm and invite everybody in.

They use all kinds of little programs and stuff to get people to come in, when the duty is to go out.

Christ's kingdom is to invade every area of a nation and a culture.

But Big Eva doesn't want anything to do with that. And if you actually see God's law being implemented within the civil realm, which should be, they actually attack that.

Like, a recent example would be Uganda. And they passed laws regarding homosex in keeping with God's law regarding homosex.

And all of Big Eva became unglued, including Russell Moore and others, attacking

Uganda for simply doing what we should be doing here in America.

Even Ted Cruz, who, I actually supported

Ted in the Republican primary when

President Trump first won the election. I was not supporting

Trump in the primary that year. I was supporting Ted Cruz, and I was dismayed with the severity with which he attacked

Uganda for that. And there was also a gross exaggeration of Uganda's position, because they were talking about people who are unrepentant pedophiles and those imposing sexual activity against disabled people and on and on.

So the whole thing was being exaggerated by the left. And by the way, ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry that I'm echoing back.

We're going to hopefully try to rectify that situation sometime soon.

But in fact, we're going to go to the first commercial break. And I'm going to ask my guest,

Matt, I don't know if you have headphones you can wear, but if you have an ability to wear headphones and shut the speakers off, that may be able to help prevent me from echoing back every time

I speak. Or at least turn the speakers down as much as you can. But we're going to our first commercial break.

And if you would like to submit a question of your own for Matt Trujillo, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. Give this first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are critiquing the church that you are actually a member of.

And you might even be an elder or a pastor of that church. And you disagree with your own elders over something we're discussing today.

And you feel compelled to remain anonymous at this point. And I don't blame you. That is a no -brainer.

But if you're just asking a general question about what our guest is speaking on today, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence.

We'll be right back with Matt Trujillo. Don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents

The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War. September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

Featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

The debate topic, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

So come join us for the sixth Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the gospel at war in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the

Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits. Head to futureofchristendom .org.

Back together again, yeah. Back together again, yeah.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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royaldiadem .com, and mention Chris Arnson of Iron Sheriff and Zion Radio. We are now back with our guest today,

Matt Trujillo, and we are discussing the theme that he is going to be addressing at the upcoming

Future of Christendom Conference in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, September 15th through the 17th, featuring

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. And by the way, to register for that conference, go to futureofchristendom .org,

futureofchristendom .org. The sooner you register, the quicker, or should

I say the least expensive your registration fee will be. And I continue to apologize for the feedback, the echoing of my words.

Right now, I have no way of correcting that situation, but hopefully by some miracle, it will stop.

And by the way, on Saturday, September 16th, Dr. James R.

White will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, and the theme will be, Is Gay Christian a

Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? Saturday, September 16th, 3 .30

p .m. to 6 .30 p .m., and you will also get free refreshments and free lunch with your registration that day.

But we are back, as I said, with my guest, Matt Trujillo. We do have a listener.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island. And Ronald asks,

Would an element of Big Eva be that numbers are more important than anything, even if this is unconsciously so?

So, in order to garner larger numbers and draw more visitors and even members into your congregations, the truth is watered down and candy -coated to be more appealing to the masses.

So, wouldn't that mean, at its root, Big Eva and its heresies are rooted in Arminianism, even if unconsciously so, because, sadly, even many

Reformed churches, or at least Reformed by name, have begun to mimic the

Arminian's megachurch model? So, no, he's asking if you agree with that.

Yeah, absolutely. And, in fact, it's part of it because they actually teach you that at Bible college.

And they teach you at the Christian universities. When you're going into ministry, they teach you that at the seminaries.

The fact that they teach you different things. Keep things level, you know, not deep.

And you'll have more people who will be there. Another one is, build a new building, and they will come.

I mean, they literally teach these things. So that if you, you know, build a new building, you can figure there's going to be

X number of people who are going to come just because they like a nice building and they like a new building. So, these are very common things.

So, this is the field of dreams strategy, then, you say? That's the field of dreams strategy, yes.

That's what they're hoping for. And, unfortunately, it seems to work.

I mean, one thing I routinely run into is people who attend churches, large evangelical churches, smaller evangelical churches, where the ministers have a very hard time speaking any word against homosex whatsoever.

And so, the people in the congregations actually end up believing their view of homosex. And one of the big tenets attached to that is all sins are the same, which they're not.

And because they don't read the Bible themselves, their churchmen don't exegete or exposit the passages of Scripture themselves.

The people sitting in the pews are so massively ignorant of Scripture, Chris, that it's easy for them not to even know when their minister isn't properly, you know, setting forth the

Word of God. So, yeah, there's a desire to keep it that way because numbers plays a big role.

When I was in a denomination 30 -some years ago, when all the ministers would get together, that was the biggest thing.

Do you have a new building program? How many people attend your church? These were the things that mattered to them.

What's your income for the congregation? Those were the things that mattered to all of them.

And I'll tell you, when I left the denomination, I felt like a purity of God returned to my heart because it's ugly.

So, yeah, your caller's right on on that. By the way, I want to give you an example of Romans 8 -28 in this particular phenomenon that you've been talking about.

There was a church that was located here in Pennsylvania that was one of these churches that has as a mindset build a beautiful building and they will come.

But in this case, it failed. And thankfully, it failed because these theologically aberrant people had to sell the building.

And I believe they sold it at a very affordable price, if I'm not mistaken, to a very solid church,

High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania. I'm not divulging anything that is a secret because Pastor Matt, who has been my guest on this program, has been very open about the fact that that church came into existence there in Larksville, Pennsylvania because of the failure of one of these numerically minded churches that was more concerned about numbers than anything else.

And thankfully, that false agenda crumbled and a solid, biblically faithful church moved in.

So I just want to let our listeners know that that on occasion does happen. Thanks be to God.

And by the way, if you live in or near Larksville, Pennsylvania, or if you're visiting that area or if you have family, friends and loved ones in that area, go to highpointbaptist .com

and you'll have all the information that you need to visit there. Highpointbaptist .com. And by the way, thank you,

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County for the very spot on observation.

And I guess we also have to make sure that we give a caveat. We would be in error if we said that having a desire to fill our church buildings was completely an erroneous or sinful or heretical idea.

Obviously, we want that. But the difference is when people compromise the message of the scripture in order to lure in as if people could be tricked somehow into salvation.

And as I've heard said, and it's been said in different ways, but if you lure goats into your church building with goat food, you're going to have a congregation filled with goats, not sheep.

That's exactly right. When I was a young minister back in the late 80s, an older minister told me something that I found to be true and wise.

He said, whatever you use to get them to come in, you'll have to keep giving them that to keep them there, to get them to stay.

And that's exactly right. And that's why we just need to be faithful to Christ and to his word. We don't need to play these little games where we keep our theology an inch deep and 5 ,000 miles wide or have fuzzy little programs or wonderful palace buildings in order to get people to be there.

We just need to be true and faithful to him in the preaching of his word. And the numbers are all about him.

I don't know how most pastors are. Well, I kind of do. But I've always had this approach,

Chris, that as a pastor, I don't want people to be at mercy seat if God doesn't want them to be at mercy seat.

Because I want them to feel joined to the congregation and be part of the mission of the church and why we exist and all those kinds of things.

I don't want to have to baby people and try to keep them there.

But that's how most of evangelicalism works. And they even have programs where they teach you as soon as someone comes in, try to find a position for them to fill.

You know, teaching a class or helping out with whatever, because if you do that, then they'll probably stick around longer.

That's all just manipulation and weirdness to me. Yeah. And also putting your flock in danger of someone who is a wolf in sheep's clothing having some position of authority in your church.

But would you categorize this in the way that I would?

And this isn't the whole picture, but it's a part of it. Christians have made an idol out of niceness.

And they are more concerned apparently over the feelings of individuals than their eternal, never dying souls.

Am I on the record, on the mark here? You are on the mark there.

In fact, I'll change the gospel just to try to make it more palatable to the unbeliever.

I remember several years back when there was this Christian organization wanted to do this nationwide billboard campaign.

And so they ran their campaign before consensus groups. And their campaign was simply repent and believe the gospel.

And then they had their contact information there, right? Well, when they ran the consensus groups, they got a very negative reaction to the word repent.

So they tried all kinds of different words to try to replace repent with.

So you wouldn't use the word repent, something less. And ran it for these consensus groups, but they never could find a word to replace repent with.

So in the end, they decided we'll just remove the word repent and the billboard will just say believe.

And that's what they did. So there's this outward effort to make the gospel more palatable to men.

When the truth of the matter is, when we talk about God's word, it's a two -edged sword. It reveals hearts.

The gospel offends. So why would you try to take that and make it into some man -made machination whereby you try to fill up your church building?

Just ridiculous. In fact, when you do that, you completely remove the concept of amazing from grace.

Grace isn't amazing if the gospel is just an added thing to make your life more beautiful and wonderful.

If there is no bad news when you give the good news. As I have said in a previous program, it's like the difference between telling a man or woman on death row that they have been exonerated and will be set free and going into the office of the

CEO of a Fortune 500 company and you're sitting in the opposite side of the desk from this billionaire and you said, by the way,

I just want to let you know that if you accept Jesus in your heart, you will be free.

You don't give him any of the bad news. You don't give him any warning about hell and that his sin will send him there.

You just say, you want to be set free? You want to hear the good news of Jesus?

Well, if you accept Jesus in your heart, then you will be at peace with God and your life will be more wonderful than it ever was before.

The guy will probably be just reaching for his intercom button and calling for security and have you thrown out of the building and he'll think you're an idiot because there is nothing amazing about that.

He's already rich in a human sense of the understanding. Am I making sense here?

Absolutely. And the Holy Spirit, remember, as we declare the truth of God's Word and Gospel, the

Holy Spirit convicts men, the scriptures say, Christ said, of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

So these are things that are part of the Gospel. These are things that are part of calling men to repentance and faith in Christ is exactly what you're talking about.

And here's one of the things I've run into out at the universities, Chris, as we do a lot in ministry out at the universities, which

I love talking to the young people, and lo and behold, we go out there and share the truth of God's Word to the students.

And it's the student, Christian student organizations that come up and say, oh, this is, you're ruining everything we've been doing because they believe in relationship evangelism.

You have to have a relationship before you've earned the right to tell anyone about Christ or the things of God.

In fact, which is an absurdity and I always love. Could you pick up on the relationship evangelism when we return from our midway break?

Because I don't want to interrupt you in mid -sentence other than just now. Folks, we're going to our midway break, folks, so please be patient with us because the midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer middle break because the

FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, where they're located.

And they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air in the middle of the show. While we simultaneously, on the other hand, air our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

We hope that that means you will buy their products, use their services, and visit their churches whenever possible.

But when you cannot do any of those things, there's one thing that every Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener can do.

If you really love the show and are really grateful to God that there are people, businesses, organizations, and churches, and parachurch ministries who love this show so much that they want to share their wealth with us so that we remain on the air, if you're really grateful about that, please just contact our sponsors and say, thank you for sponsoring

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That will go a long way to convince our advertisers that they are not spending their money in vain on this program.

So please thank our advertisers and send in your questions to Matt Trujillo, to chrisorenson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Matt Trujillo and our theme of the

Gospel at War with Big Eva right after these messages. Gay Christian, a personal journey of faith and sexual identity.

The debate topic. Is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church?

So come join us for the sixth Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to my guest, Matt Trujillo, and our topic today,

The Gospel at War with Big Eva, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. First of all, folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, you look forward to the guests and topics that we discuss every day and sometimes you'll hear guests and topics that you won't hear anywhere else.

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Also, I want to remind you about the three -day conference in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, September 15th through the 17th.

That's a Friday through Sunday at the Spooky Nook Sports and Events. This is the

Future of Christendom Conference featuring my guest today, Matt Trujillo, and a number of other speakers, with the keynote speaker being

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is not only going to be speaking, but he's going to be debating

Dr. Gregory Coles on the theme, Is Gay Christian a

Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? That part of the conference, the debate, will be held

Saturday, September 16th, 3 .30 p .m. to 6 .30 p .m., with free lunch and refreshments on that day.

If you want to register, please go to futureofchristendom .org, futureofchristendom .org. Also, don't forget, if you're a man in ministry leadership and you would love to hear a powerful preacher and receive a ton of free books that are brand -new books that I personally selected from publishers all over the

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Jeff Knoblet, and he is the founder of Anchored in Truth Ministries and the pastor of Grace Life Church of the

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Send me an email to chrisorenson at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a

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First Love Radio, and also Austin Huggins, who is a pastor in Baghdad, Florida.

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And now, if you'd like to send in a question to my guest today, Matt Trujillo, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

And let's see here. We do have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who said earlier on in the program, the host of this show said that niceness was an idol to many people in the

Christian church. But isn't it also very important that we are not more offensive than need be, as many preachers, pastors, and churches are at times, because they are adding more of an offense than the gospel already offers.

Yeah, I think that's a very valid point, and I would never advocate being mean for meanness sake. For meanness sake, anyone?

Do you have any comment, Matt? Yeah, no, I agree with her.

Clearly, the shift is they're too soft. They're too, quote unquote, gentle.

They're not faithful to the word of God. That's the bigger sin.

That's the bigger problem in American Christianity right now. But absolutely not. I always tell people is people love to see, just they like honesty, and they want a sense that you love them.

Extremely important that you have that. I remember the first three times I went out to a homo event, a sodomite event, in order to minister.

I actually just stood there and prayed, Chris, because I was so bothered by what I saw.

I knew anything I had to say probably wasn't going to be productive to the kingdom of God. But by the third or fourth time, my heart was right, where I could declare faithfully and truthfully,

God's word had love for my neighbor in that regard. So I could speak to them.

Like we were talking about before this, this whole nice thing, and that's part of where relationship evangelism comes in.

You can only evangelize someone if you've established a relationship with them. That earns you the right to speak to them about the gospel.

That is so, have you read the book of Acts? Did you read the gospels? Have you read any church history?

That's so ridiculous. It's not even funny. And yet it fits well into this idea of Eva, big

Eva, not wanting to have confrontation and wanting to be liked. And the truth is what happens most often with the relationship evangelism, we all have relationships.

So we all relationship evangelize. But relationship evangelism is, yeah, you only do it if you've established a relationship, which is crazy.

And I tell people, if you've ever watched Ray Comfort, he does great little videos about interviewing people who embrace relationship evangelism, finds out they've known someone two years, three years, four years.

And then he asked them the $64 ,000 question. And at what point did you present the gospel to them?

And they all just kind of stand there and then they go, well, I haven't actually gotten to that yet.

That's the thing. And I learned early on as a Christian, Chris, because I had lots of jobs when

I was young, different jobs. If I didn't make it known that I was a Christian right up front within the first 48 hours,

I could come up with a thousand reasons never to bring Christ up or make it known that I'm a Christian to the people that I worked around.

We should just be honest with people and we should love them. I love to go out to the university.

And to the high schools, but more so even the universities. And when you get there, one of the biggest things you're doing is de -goblinizing yourself as a

Christian. Because the only verse they know is judge not lest ye be judged.

But while they're saying that to you, they're judging you the whole time. They have you completely stereotyped the entire time.

And so you have to de -goblinize yourself. All the professors hate Christ, almost all of them. All of them hate

Christianity. There's probably been a bad example of Christian, a Christian in their life and their past.

So you have to take the time to persevere, have the patience to contend for the faith with them.

And this has been my experience again and again, Chris, two, three hours into talking to people and they gather it, they do.

Some of the biggest mockers put out their hand and shake your hand and say, that was the best defense of Christianity I've ever heard of in my life.

You've given me so much to think about. That's where we should be.

Not worried about being liked, not worried about someone being offended, just faithful to him, loving our neighbor, loving him and presenting the message of the gospel to them.

That is what we should be doing. But so much of Big Eva doesn't do that. They actually just want people to kind of float into their churches and kind of cosmically evolve into whatever it is they're selling at their churches.

There's never this point of repentance and faith in Christ in most of these people's lives.

Yes. And I know that by what you said, you do not intend to mean that we are not, whenever we are able, that we're not to seek to build relationships with people.

Obviously, that is something just like Jesus did. One of the reasons the

Pharisees mocked him and falsely accused him is because he was often in the company of sinners, some of the most scandalous sinners as far as the mores of the society.

And he was developing relationships with them. And we're not to just be tract givers and keep ourselves at an arm's length from people.

We are to develop relationships, but that relationship must, if we are gonna be a faithful Christian, include evangelism.

And I have heard people, one of the phrases that immediately makes my stomach begin to churn when

I hear it frequently regurgitated by people is they'll say, and this quote has been attributed to St.

Francis. I've heard debate over whether he actually said it. But the quote is, preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words.

If Jesus Christ and his disciples went by that motto, they never would have been executed. Right. No, that's exactly right.

In fact, I have a sermon, by the way, entitled God Gives Men Words, addressing exactly what you just said, the importance of it speaking.

Yeah, our lives should reflect Christ has rule in our lives. But at the same time, yeah, the words are massively important, and you have to speak them.

And you can't think that someone just cosmically comes to know Christ without them.

It's how God's established things to be. He uses his words in order to work in the hearts of men so that the

Holy Spirit regenerates them and they're changed by the power of the Holy Spirit and the new creatures in Christ.

So you can't get away from words. Words are part of the process. But yeah, we all have relationships, and yeah, we should be establishing relationships as much as we can, whether it's out at the university.

We've had people we stayed in contact with four years later, six years later, and then come to know

Christ. It's amazing, by the way, Chris, how once someone gets married and starts having children, how that really radically begins to get them more serious about looking at the things of God.

But yeah, so we maintain relationships. We build relationships, all that kind of thing.

But to think that we only can tell someone about Jesus if we've established a relationship with them is an absurdity, and it's against Scripture.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, isn't what you said earlier about Big Eva not wanting to offend anyone only partially true, because they seem to be completely fine with offending those who are more conservative than they are.

That's true. Yes. Yeah, no, that's exactly right.

They'll accuse you of being so judgmental, and they say it with the most judgmental attitude you've ever heard of in your life.

I learned that long ago that the evangelicals, Big Eva evangelicals, are the most judgmental and unloving people on the planet, particularly, like he says, to the people who profess

Christ and want to live faithful to Him. It's crazy. Now, I have been— I want people to know—

Go ahead. I want people to know, too, Chris, that, you know, I believe that we should be defined by who we are, okay?

So, like, I'm not defined by my war against Big Eva. I'm not defined by Big Eva or my struggles against her or anything like that.

The best way that we war against Big Eva is by being faithful to Christ.

By doing those things which are dear to His heart. By making sure our churches are conducted properly, our homes are conducted properly, our private lives are conducted privately.

By actually having children, whereas Big Eva says, you know, practice birth control, follows the thinking of the world.

No. God has a very different view of children, and I learned that lesson early on as a young man.

Me and my wife had two children, and I told her I'm getting a vasectomy because if we have another kid, we'll either be broke the rest of our lives or I'm going to go insane.

My wife didn't want me to do it, but she went along with it, and I did it. And then as I continued to walk with the

Lord and read His word, I saw a different view of children than I did. And so we actually saved up to undo my vasectomy.

And even though I hadn't had any more children in seven years had gone by, we were still poor as church mice.

So we saved up for two and a half years. So there's actually 10 years between our second and our third child.

We ended up having 11 children altogether. We have nine more children after I reversed it.

So first off, have children. Secondly, actually build into their lives.

We homeschooled all our own children and we helped them build businesses as teenagers.

And we're blue collar stock people. So I'm talking about window washing. I'm talking about floor installation, refinishing, painting, landscaping, all these types of business.

And they all do great. And they're not in debt with a bunch of student loan afterwards. And there can be times to go to college, but most of the time it's gotten out of hand.

Like when me and you were young, about 10 % of people went to college. Now the state has added so many occupations that supposedly need a college education, that nearly 70 % of people go to college.

And then over 65 % of them never even use that piece of paper that they got from the university for how they make money.

But they have all this student loan debt. Not a good way to start. So work, I always think it's good to work anyway.

And then if you decide to go to college, good for you. And by the way, I'm against secondary education.

I think we should get rid of it completely. And if you wanna go to college, you should start that when you're 14 years old.

But those are all peripheral things. But I think it's important for us to minister at the universities, at the high schools, everywhere we go, we're fishers in that.

I have a little card that I carry with me and I pass out to people along the day or put in credit card slots or leave in the restroom.

And it's my website, howjesuchangedmylife .com. And it's my way of talking with people about the

Lord. Because I've found over the years, Chris, that regardless of the conversation, even if it's hostile, when

I begin to talk about my testimony, it changes the atmosphere.

Because like I said, they say judge not lest you be judged, but they're judging you the whole time that you're self -righteous now.

They have you completely stare. When you share your testimony, what you were before you came to know

Christ, how he changed your life, they can see your humanity then. It changes their attitude towards you and changes the tone of the conversation while you're trying to present the gospel to them.

So I think that's important. Also, we have a Christianity, again, building. I'm talking about building.

The best thing we do to war against big Eva is just living our lives faithful and true to Christ and building in our homes, building in our churches, building within the marketplace, building within even foraying into civil government realms.

I think that's extremely important in order to confront the idols and evils and tyrants of our day.

This should all be part of normal Christianity. And unfortunately, what big Eva does is put you on this hamster wheel, this religious hamster wheel to nowhere, where you're constantly learning the

Bible, but you never actually apply it. Let's study the Bible 10 ,000 times, but never act upon it,

Bible studies. How long can you do that? No, Christianity needs to be applied to every area of our life and to every area of life.

That's how we war against big Eva, not by, and there is times for clear distinctions being declared against what they say or what they do.

I get that. But the main way we war against her is by being true and faithful to Christ in our own lives.

We have a listener in Toronto, Canada, Carl. And Carl asks, is not big

Eva a magnet to many people who are either under church discipline in other churches or just trying to avoid it by becoming lost in a sea of humans and therefore being very rarely on the radar of anyone in leadership that would actually apply any kind of discipline in their lives?

Yes. Yeah. And most churches don't understand the purpose or the value of church discipline.

And by the way, that includes some small churches too. It's not just big churches that avoid that.

Absolutely. That's exactly right. And so they don't involve themselves in church discipline.

If they know the person was under church discipline, they totally, they don't care.

They just get out bigger offering plates, right? They're coming, get out bigger offering plates.

The first thing I say to people who I know attend a different church and they show up at our church on Sunday, this is honestly, the first thing

I say to them is, what are you doing here? Because I want to know, you know, is there a problem?

You know, did you leave the other church? And, you know, nine times out of 10, it's, oh, I just wanted to visit you guys.

And, okay, that's fine. But here's a recent occurrence just last week.

This was so refreshing. We have a couple that our church brought under church discipline about two years ago,

Chris. And we've, thank God, in 35 years of existing, we've only had to administer church discipline four times, okay?

So, but I get this call back from this church wanting to know about the church discipline that we administered to the couple.

They investigated, look into it, talk with the couple, and then told the couple, you need to go back and make right what's wrong at Mercy Seed.

And they're still involved in open sin. I'm not going to go into the details. And you can't be a part of our church until that is made right.

You know how refreshing that was and how rare that is? But that's supposed to be the norm.

And church discipline is good for the congregation. It's good for the individuals who've gone astray.

Saved my life. That saved my life. I was a person who lapsed back into, or should

I say dove head first, back into out -of -control drunkenness after having been sober for 18 years, and was living a life of scandalous drunkenness.

And if I was not placed under church discipline, I really seriously believe I'd be dead.

Wow. And so the Lord used that to bring me, not only restore me to faithful membership in the church, but also to sobriety.

And I always want to sing the praises of the ministry where God led me to find sobriety again.

Hebron Colony, hebroncolony .org in Boone, North Carolina.

And it's free of charge. And the Lord used it to completely, at least up until this point in my life,

I have absolutely zero desire to drink alcohol again. Even though I have friends who enjoy their liberty to moderately drink alcohol, and I can be in their company and not salivate and wish that I was drinking with them.

But I just wanted to throw that out there that church discipline can save lives.

Absolutely. And think also of this, very common amongst the

Reformers, not common today, when you had magistrates who had that, you know, that dualism.

You know, like, oh, I'm a magistrate here, and I'm going to go along with the evil that's being done.

And now I'm a Christian over here. I'm sitting in my pew, that whole dualism.

They understood, the churchmen understood, no, when you have a magistrate who's supporting evil in the public realm, you have to bring them under church discipline.

And that's not only good for the magistrate who has gone off course, it's also good for society at large, because it keeps them from making law which totally is made contrary to the law or word of God.

So church discipline is an important matter. I don't even know how we got on church discipline, but this is a great conversation.

A listener in Canada, Toronto, Carl, asked us if Big Eva was a magnet for people who wanted to avoid church discipline because they can get lost in the sea of humanity.

And typically a church that would accurately be called under the umbrella of Big Eva might not even ever enact a church discipline in anybody's life anyway.

And perhaps if they were really scandalously sinful, and perhaps if it involved, you know, rape or murder or something, but the average person perhaps committing adultery or if they were homosexual might not ever have any church discipline at all, even if the leaders knew about it.

But anyway, we have to go to... Yeah, no, these... Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say these large churches cater to people being able to hide out.

And the average stay of a Christian, I forget how at a local congregation, is very short. I forget what it is now.

I'm talking about the average. And we have the problem with the churchmen. The average stay of a churchman is two and a half years at a church.

That's a problem, too. Um, there's a goodness to the people and the pastor, you know, the church leadership, getting to know each other, working through things together for years and decades.

It builds strong bodies. Well, we have to go to our final break. And if you have a question, send it in immediately to chrisorensen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Matt Trujillo. Don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents

The Future of Christendom 2023. The Gospel at War. September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

Featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

The debate topic. Is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church?

So come join us for the sixth Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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Hello. My name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s.

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Please visit us at Truth. Love. Parent dot com. Welcome back. And I also have a reminder for our listeners.

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Daniel P. Buttafuoco. Please do not forget that Dan Buttafuoco is also a serious injury and medical malpractice attorney, and he can handle cases anywhere in the

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That's 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or 1 -800 -NOW -HURT dot com. We're now back with Matt Trujillo. And Matt, before we run out of time,

I really want you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air.

Sure. To me, the biggest thing is the fact that the most sure way that we war against Big Eva with the awful form of Christianity that's prevalent here in America is by living faithful and true to Christ and building within our personal life, within our homes, within the marketplace, within the civil realm,

Christian thought. And that's the biggest thing to me. We should be defined not by our attacks on Big Eva.

We should be defined by who we are. Both in our personal lives, also in our churches, in our homes as families.

That would be the biggest thing that I would want to convey to people.

And I hope they do it. People are interested. Chris, they can visit our website, defytyrants .com

regarding the doctrine of the lesser magistrate. If they're interested in the sermons that I preach, which get quite a few listens, they can go to Rumble.

It's Mercy Seat is our channel, rumble .com, Mercy Seat. We're also at YouTube, same channel,

Mercy Seat, or they can go to sermonaudio .com and they can listen to sermons there too.

Just put in my name, Matt Chueller, just put in Chueller. I'm the only Chueller on there. And you can see the sermons that are posted there.

To me, that's the most important thing Christ has given to me in this war, is the pulpit that He's given me.

And I've seen the Lord use the declaration of His Word in so many people's lives regarding their own life, their family life, their business life, and also to engage at the civil realm also and confront the evils and the idols and the tyrants of our day.

Amen. And by the way, folks, if you are looking for Matt Chueller on the internet, the last name is spelt

T -R -E -W -H -E -L -L -A, T as in Thomas, R -E -W -H -E -L -L -A.

I want to thank you for doing such a superb job today, Matt, and I look forward to having you back in the program. As I said before, right in the outset of the program,

I would love to have you back along with some co -hosts that are perhaps retired police officers who are also

Christians and share your worldview so that we can talk about the police officer's role as a lesser magistrate and how police officers who are indeed

Christians have to be prepared to obey God rather than man when they are being ordered to violate the rights and sin against their brothers and sisters in Christ.

So I would love to have you back on the program to discuss that because in fact, I don't even know if I've ever heard that addressed on a talk radio program before.

It may have been. I just haven't heard it. I never have heard it. I'd be honored to do that with you.

So absolutely. Great. And folks, please don't forget about the three -day conference that we've been promoting in Lancaster County, September 15th, 16th, and 17th.

That's a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It is the Future of Christendom Conference featuring Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Go to futureofchristendom .org to register.

futureofchristendom .org Also, don't forget, if you are a man in ministry leadership, please register for my free

Iron Triple Zion radio pastor's luncheon on Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.

at the Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is Perry County. My guest speaker will be

Jeff Noblitt, who is actually my guest on this program day after tomorrow, Thursday, August 24th, 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern. Jeff Noblitt will be my speaker. He's the founder and president of Anchored in Truth Ministries and the senior pastor at Grace Life Church of the

Shoals in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, one of the most powerful preachers I've ever heard. Not only will you be fed free lunch and hear the powerful preaching of Jeff Noblitt, and share fellowship with your colleagues in ministry, but everyone there will also receive a very heavy sack of free brand new books donated by publishers all over the

United States and the United Kingdom, personally selected by me. In fact, one year, my guest

Matt Trujillo was kind enough and generous enough to donate books for that. And in fact,

I think he did it two years. In fact, I know he did it two years. But you are guaranteed to leave with at least one heavy sack of books.

All of it's free of charge. This was a ministry that began at the desire of my precious late wife,

Julie, in the 1990s, and continues on to this day in honor of her, in tribute to her, and in loving memory of her.

So I hope you can come to that conference, or should I say free pastor's luncheon on Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. in Perry County, Pennsylvania. If you want to register, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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Thank you, all of you, for listening, especially those who took the time to write. I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater