How to Talk to Mormon Missionaries: 2nd Edition, Pt 2 | Cultish

Recap of the Previous Conversation and Setting Up the Discussion

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That's cultish 50 for 50 off. Here's to living out freedom. Welcome back to cultish everybody where we enter into the kingdom of the cults. This is part two of our recent series here with pastor Ross Anderson on how to respond to the Mormon missionary message.

Here we are still with pastor Wade, right? Jerry's not here. Again, if you haven't figured it out by now, you'll never figure it out. Where is Jerry? Maybe he's back there in my closet. I'm sorry you can see a door, but we're going to have to deal with it.

Anyways, we had a great conversation the last episode, uh, pastor Wade, can you give us just a summary real quick of what we talked about?

Yeah, sure. Um, it was really great hearing about God's work in your life, the ministry, uh, that God has really bore out of, um, uh, you know, you growing up as a Mormon and then, um, really we moved on from that into, um, you know, just LDS conversations in general, how this immediately can be applied.

I think we're going to go into the content, uh, more technically of the book now, but just even the fact that, um, we've got to come to their level. We've got to make this personal. We, we can't be afraid, um, as, uh, faith people who are very, uh, much into apologetics and theology to get to the point of just telling the story of the gospel, um, you know, reaching these people on a personal level, not treating them like, uh, uh, a system, an organization of, uh, of a heresy or something like that.

Of course they belong to something like that, but we've got to make this personal and bring it back down to that sort of level. And I think that's kind of, uh, where we, uh, ended. So,.

The Restoration, the Apostasy, and Mormon Claims of Lost Authority

Yeah, let's do it. And so, uh, pastor Ross, where can everybody find your book and get to know more about you?

Yeah. So the book is available anywhere books are sold it's Amazon or the publisher, wherever you like to buy books, uh, you can find it. And, and then, you know, an Amazon for example, has a, you know, a detailed blurb and you can look inside and it is, there's a, also our site, uh, we created a site to, for the book is called Mormon missionary message .com.

And on there there's a bio, there's bios of all the contributors, the guys who wrote the chapters. There's some video that Corey and I talk about individually and together. We kind of talk about our story and we talk about the book and what it's all about.

And, and so there's some, all the recommendations that people have given for the book. And we'll also have on that site will be, uh, I know this is irrelevant for people who are watching this, but we will have link, a link to this conversation.

And as well as other conversations that we've had with different podcasters, people can find out a lot more about who we are and what, what it's all about.

Wow. Nice. Good. So we built that context in the last episode to really, when you're engaging with an LDS individual, to look at them as an image bearer of God, someone who may be sincere, but also very sincerely deceived.

So our hearts should break for the individuals. We must have patience with them and we need to meet them where we're at. Cause I think Jesus would do the same thing. And the ways to be aware about that is the culture that they come from, uh, and the leveling with them and listening to them, asking them questions, because, uh, missionaries are trained to answer questions.

So asking questions would be a very wise thing to do, but let's get into some of the content now of the book in terms of the chapters from the preach my gospel handbook. The first chapter that they like to walk the investigators through is about the restoration.

And then there was an apostasy. So what does that mean exactly? Pastor Ross, I'll hand the floor to you. Okay. So those are, those are terminology.

That's terminology that's used in a certain particular way within Mormonism. Um, the apostasy, of course, the idea of falling away. So they would, they believe that, and their whole basis is to claim that the church that Jesus originally established was lost from the face of the earth.

Now they will, they'll take their experience and their concept of church and they'll, they'll reflect it back. They'll project it back on, you know, the church Jesus had, uh, created. And so Jesus created in case your, our viewers didn't really know an institutional church very much like the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which could be a surprise to readers of the Bible, right?

But that's the concept that the Mormons have. And, and in it, in it, in that church, there were certain roles that are ordained by God, apostles, prophets, et cetera. So they take again, words that were used in the Bible and roles that are discussed in the Bible.

And they, and they reinvent them in terms of their meanings, what an apostle is supposed to be and what a prophet is supposed to be and all the rest. Uh, but this was all lost. So the authority, the key piece is authority from God.

So without, without God's authorization, then no church, no pastor, no missionary, whatever has authority to do the things that God insists that we do in order to be, uh, saved and ultimately to be right with him.

And so the authority of the priesthood, which is the authority to act in the name of God was lost, um, over time. And so this is what had to, this is the apostasy and this is what had to be restored. And so, so God chose their story.

God chose to restore that through this young boy named Joseph Smith and all of Joseph Smith's origin stories are revolved around this whole idea of, of him being the prophet of the restoration and Mormonism is rooted in that claim.

Now, so their ideas, the missionaries are going to say, Oh, don't you wish that you had, I know you go to church, whatever, it's great, happy for you, but, but don't you wish you had God's real authority to do it, you know, fully.

Right. So they're, they're not in a framework where they're saying you're wrong, you're bad. Um, now they might say some of those things in house among themselves. Um, but to, to the investigator, the person who's looking into Mormonism they're not going to say, Oh yeah, you, you're all wet.

You've got it totally screwed up. No, they'll say, Hey, what you have is great. Why don't you come in and check and see if we have, we can add anything to it. Yeah. And we're going to, and we're going to add to it is, Oh, we have a better idea of, of who God is.

And we have a better picture of what it's all about. We have a thought, we have this authority that's been lost and we've restored it. And so, Oh, and we have this way for you to, um, experience your full potential as a human being and, and all those kinds of things.

Yeah. With the restoration of original Christianity.

And that's, what's interesting to me is like going about navigating these conversations with people, even on the street, though it's not always Mormon missionaries that we talk to. Right. Pastor Wade.

But, uh, there always seems to be, well, I want to talk about not what we differ in, but what we have common ground on. But one thing I like to remind the LDS person, uh, in question form, typically it's like, well, do you disagree with what Joseph Smith said?

Right. Uh, do you disagree with the first vision account? Uh, do you disagree with, here it is in first Nephi 14, 10, the one is the church of the lamb of God and the other is the church of the devil.

I think in the context widely in the book of a Mormon, it's speaking of the Roman Catholic church there, but the context in terms of the first vision account would also consider all of us. Right. Right.

So navigating the conversation with the Mormon missionary, one way to be able to disconnect from your own emotions or feelings about getting kind of angry about that would be to go, well, the truth is actually the opposite for this individual and they're in there deceived.

So let's get into what, what do they say specifically was lost? What did Jesus kind of teach? Well, who is Jesus according to Mormonism and what is priesthood authority, right?

That's great. And I agree because I think that all of these conversations, all of the things that the missionaries are bringing up that we could respond to, um, offer great ways to talk about who Jesus is.

And to me that's the ultimate question and our authors, all the authors, all reflect that they talk about the primacy of Jesus. Um, but that's different. It's different for Mormons, you know, so we want to establish that and what that means for me.

But so the idea of priesthood is that it has to be, it's sort of a functional, um, power that has to be given to you by someone who has the priesthood. Okay. And so it's passed on by, from one priesthood holder to initiate who becomes a priesthood holder and he passes it on to then his, then the Mormonism to your son.

Uh, and Oh, by the way, only men have it. So there's a lot of things to talk about there in terms of, uh, I think of first Peter and the priesthood of all believers and so forth. But yeah. Um, so only men have it, but it's, it's what it, so baptism is a saving ordinance for Mormons.

If you're not baptized, then you know, you don't, when you're baptized, you start on the path. If you're never baptized, it's not, you're not going to get anywhere. Um, and there are other ordinances that are necessary and none of those are valid without proper priesthood.

So you have to be baptized by a proper priesthood holder. Absolutely. A Melchizedek priesthood holder. Well, different, uh,.

Different things can can happen. Different levels of priesthood. There's two priesthoods, Melchizedek and Aaronic. But, um, but yeah, a Melchizedek priesthood holder would have to do those kinds of ordinances.

So here's, here's a question. So how, how do they navigate? Uh, maybe you haven't thought of this. I'm not sure. I'm just thinking of it right now. Well, Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, but Jesus didn't baptize anybody.

Uh, how did he, uh, pass on the priesthood of Melchizedek without actually baptizing, uh, the disciples?

Well, so they would say that the priesthood itself is not passed on by baptism. Baptism is an entry into the, let's say, uh, you got to climb the ladder. Okay. Baptism gets you to the foot of the ladder.

Right. Climb. Gotcha. So priest, uh, so they'll look at passages like the investiture of Aaron with the Levitical priesthood in the old Testament say, well, they laid hands on him and they had a ceremony, whatever.

So, so they will say that priesthood is, um, passed on through a ritual of placing your hands on someone praying over them and investing them with the priesthood authority. Gotcha. That's, that's the ritual that they, that they invoke.

So the assumption is that Jesus did that to the disciples. Yeah. I mean, he washed their feet. Why not take that as a, as a right of getting the Melchizedek priesthood. They received it when their feet were being washed by Jesus, but no, it happened somewhere, not in the text.

That we don't actually see it happen, but it's a, like I said, it's projected backwards into it. Right. Cause you have this sense of this is the way it's supposed to be, you know? So that's how priesthood is, but that was lost.

So the idea that that was lost somehow is that, um, as the church became persecuted as the early church in the, you know, first century or second century, um, became persecuted as members of the leaders of the church, maybe began to become apostate or made false teachings, moved broke and broke, broke in and so forth, that there was the, the line, the chain of investiture from one to the next was somehow broken.

And so priesthood, if there's nobody who's passing it on, do that ritual, then eventually it will die out. Yeah. And that's what they think happened.

What would you say to somebody, uh, like how would you navigate part of that conversation to get the individual to understand that that no, uh, there is no apostasy or broken chain that Jesus Christ is the Melchizedek priesthood holder and things of that nature.

How would you navigate that with sure? I mean,.

I'm interested to see how they go about it, uh, in the book, but you know, we were even talking about, um, you know, the keys of the kingdom of heaven passage and what the rock is. And, um, you know, looking at the original language there and seeing the participles and, and words that are pointing more to, uh, Peter's confession of who Jesus is rather than Peter himself.

So it's actually the gospel is the rock.

It's the foundation of the church from Deuteronomy to Moses and Moses.

Right. And that would, that would keep in line with, you know, uh, again, Christ being the cornerstone and no man then becomes the stone, you know, over the, the, the main cornerstone. And so it's the gospel message.

And then, you know, we, you know, when we were speaking about it, really, when you look at the context and you look at the rest of, um, the ministry of the apostles and how that spread to even people who weren't apostles and just Philip, the evangelist and, um, you know, uh, Stephen, the first martyr and things like that, and how it just propagated to even Gentile churches.

It seems as if the keys are the gospel message. You know, we get to all hold the gospel message. And, um, I think there's this hyper literalism that you can input into that, um, message and then therefore, um, believe that only certain men through a certain ritual can therefore, uh, you know, disseminate the, uh, you know, the gospel and then, and then men get to make a declaration on who's saved and unsaved.

And obviously, you know, there's, there's application, I think for even churches and ministers to do proper church discipline from Matthew 18 and, uh, you know, participate in excommunication. Those are biblical things.

Um, and so in that sense, you know, uh, the binding loosing language is there too. Um, um, but at the end of the day, I think the prevailing message is, um, that, um, Paul says, invokes self-examination in a person.

And at the end of the day, we've even seen in church history and in the Bible that, you know, I, I as a minister do my best to go based on the profession and fruit of an individual, but even so I'm going to baptize people who are not true believers.

Right. And, and so I guess the question is too, like you're even a living testimony of someone who's left the Mormon church. Um, you had the priesthood, right? Yeah. And so, um, that would make whoever gave it to you to be an error.

And, uh, that seems like, uh, that seems like an issue to me. If we make it this elevated, this priesthood, this keys element, this authority element, if we make it a system of perfectionism, uh, in one sense, then let's be consistent and say, how is it failing when it's being given to others when people apostatize, you know?

Um, so we have room to understand that God is the ultimate arbiter of who's saved or not, uh, not me. And so, uh, I think I'm speaking too technical, but, but I, I hope I, I hope I'm making sense.

No. And related to what you're saying, Wade, um, the idea of this, is there a legitimate, is there, is there a place where the legitimacy of that priesthood claim falls apart? And, and really there is because Joseph Smith taught and early apostles of Mormonism taught that if you exercise your priesthood unrighteously, so it's not just, you made a bad choice and you ordained the right, the wrong guy.

But if you yourself were not fully living up to your part and being obedient, et cetera, and then you exercise your priesthood, it's void. So how do we know, how do I know that the, the my dad gave me my priesthood?

How do I know that whoever gave him his priesthood wasn't like having a bad day spiritually when that happened, that they were right with God. And, and you know, so it really is, uh,.

There's a lot of broken chains along the way for the last 200 years then. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like your, your priesthood authority in your salvation in general, which we'll get to the next chapter, which is the plan of salvation. But it hinges upon, uh, obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles as a priesthood holder.

So the key for the LDS individual in terms of thinking of an apostasy is number one, I want to, I want to preface this. Well, in the 19th century, a restoration of the gospel and restoration movements were not, uh, Mormonism wasn't alone.

We have the church of Christ and the Campbellites. We have the Jehovah's witnesses in Charles Taze Russell. Uh, we have a LNG white, uh, even speaking of similar things. I know there can be signs differences.

We have, yeah. Uh, many different things going on in the Americas at that time. But one point that would be easy for Joseph Smith to be able to get somebody to be obedient to him and his teachings would be look, the free gospel that you've heard about your whole life and these individuals you see around you who call themselves Christians, but are outwardly acting differently than what the book says.

Well, guess what? The truth was lost and you actually have to have a priesthood, but the only way to obtain that is to follow X, Y, and Z. And the only way you know what X, Y, and Z is, is by listening to me, sitting underneath me and getting the truth.

Right? So the problem though is, is whenever a different gospel comes around, it's going to come with a workspace salvation.

You don't, hey, you don't, uh, if you see rotten fruit on a tree, you don't, uh, tie fresh fruit to it and expect it to live. It falls off dead just within a matter of time. You actually got to attack the root system.

So yeah, exactly.

The Gospel, Justification, and the Difference Between Root and Fruit

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Yeah. So, you know, and the other thing is with respect to priesthood is one of the, one of the ways I approach that is, well, the book in the book, he points out, look, this whole superstructure of offices and prophets, he says, he said really in how that doesn't, doesn't that take us back to the old covenant and do we really want to go back to the old covenant?

You know, certainly there's truth there and relevancy there, but in terms of how we, how we think about issues like priesthood, but then oftentimes I'll talk to people about, look, priesthood, the authority is inherent in the command.

So if my dad gives, you know, I'm a kid, let's say I'm, I'm 10 years old. My dad gives me a buck and says, I want you to go down to the mini Mart and buy me a newspaper. Well, when I was a kid, there were newspapers.

That was a thing, you know, so it probably costs a quarter, but so what, I wouldn't go like, wait, wait, does that kid have the authority to go do that? No, the authority is inherent in his get, his dad told him to do it.

He gave him to resources to do it. And so yeah, he's authorized to do it. And so Jesus tells us as the church, you know, to baptize, he tells us to, you know, share to witness to the gospel. So all the things that Jesus tells us to do as the church, the authority is not inherent in some external structure that is passed on and maintained by people.

The authority is inherent in the command itself. It's the authority of Jesus that I'm acting on the basis of. And so that's one, one way to look at it.

Right. Like a, like a soldier being discharged or I should say, commissioned or sent by a commanding officer. It's like when he speaks before someone higher than him, it's like he's not treated as an equal.

He's treated as if he's speaking on the authority of the sending officer who's higher than him. So it's like, it's a derivative authority. Exactly. It's not inherent in ourselves. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's crucial to understand going back to the keys of the kingdom in terms of that being the gospel, it's like Jesus is the door, right? He is the gate. The Holy spirit is the one who regenerates and saves and he works through the keys, the proclamation of the gospel.

And that's how the door is opened only through the shed blood of Jesus Christ being put in now to the believers who believe actually in that and on faith through the authority of Jesus who spoke for the father revealed to the son, John one 18, no one has ever seen the father except the unique and only son he has made him known.

And then going through like John, just reading chapters 13 through 15 all the times Jesus is like, if you have seen me, you have seen the father, not saying he is the person of the father because he distinguishes himself.

But the fact is, is the authority that we rely on for the church that we haven't lost anything isn't on the applications or priesthood of men, right? It's on the authority and the power of the Holy spirit, who is the spirit of Christ of God.

Like that, that's it. Like the baptism in general was, is never a saving act for an individual. It's a representation of the saving work of Christ. And it has authority only in so much as Jesus in faith in him actually is the saving factor of grace.

And that's a beautiful thing. And what we can see what is apostasy according to the Bible and Galatians one is when a different gospels preached. So the apostasy occurred within Joseph Smith when he brings about a different gospel.

But the, the the benefit for him would be to say, no, that's not the apostasy. The actual historic Christian church is an apostasy. How did that work for you? Ross, like navigating something like that when you're coming to faith at a time when there's no internet, right?

The book of Abraham was just, news was just coming out that the book of Abraham was not actually a translation from Abraham given from, from Joseph Smith. Like how did you navigate that stuff?

Well, I came to the point where the whole thing, the whole structure of Mormonism didn't have any credibility because of the historical things. And so I had to really discover the biblical alternatives, you know, in that process of coming to faith.

But initially it's going, I'm going like, Oh, well, no. Well, all the claims they made, every claim they make that is cat has a shadow cast over it because, you know, these other areas where they can be tested historically and tested in people's character and all the rest, they didn't measure up.

And so, you know, I had to, I had to figure it out, um, as a young believer, as in coming into faith in Jesus. But I just, I had good, credible people. I had was surrounded by credible people. I was surrounded by a, in a church that preached the Bible and it was boom just straight from scripture.

And so, and, and wise people in, in engaged, who could answer those kinds of questions, um, for me. So it was a process, but it was a good conditions.

Yeah. You said something earlier talking about, uh, when you were young wanting to be righteous or weren't righteous enough, that brings us into the second part of preach my gospel, which is the plan of salvation.

Uh, before we get into that, what was it like for you when you realized that your righteousness, uh, that you are accredited now is through the perfect work of Jesus and it's not on you, how did that feel?

And then let's get into the plan of salvation and what the LDS believe.

The Mormon View of the Plan of Salvation and Exaltation

Yeah. So to me, that was just a huge, um, revelation and it was incredibly joyful, um, to go like, Oh, cause, cause I was not measuring up. Now I had, I had thought I was measuring up as a, as a Latter-day Saint, honestly, to take a look at that, that, that was not, it was not measuring up to what God really wanted or what God, cause I could tell, I knew the things that were going inside my heart.

I knew the things that were hidden or secret that, uh, you know, I could portray to all kinds of other people around me and exterior veneer, um, in a just posing. But I, I knew, you know, um, that, Hey, this is not, there's things in my life that aren't, aren't right.

You know? And so, so when I came to faith, uh, when I heard that message about this, uh, I heard a message about the four soils and the fruitful life that someone who receives the gospel. Uh, and I go like, Oh, wow, that's, that's a new idea.

That's what I need. So I knew, I knew pretty much that my righteousness by the time I had come to that point, that my own external righteousness wasn't going to measure up. And he's talking about something.

The pastor of that day was talking about something different, something that God does, something that's this intrinsic power in, you know, in what God imparts to you and it, and it take, takes your life and it changes you from the inside out.

And so that moment, and then I began to experience that from that moment on, it was like radically. So it wasn't like, it wasn't like the, uh, LDS people will parody Christianity and say, Oh, easy believism.

You just pray a prayer and you can just go do whatever you want and live however you want. You know, um, in their concept, they don't have a sense of the intrinsic power of the gospel working within a person.

It's all on you, you know? And so this is fake. And so it was real for me and God began to change. Uh, for example, um, I just really experienced a lot of radical changes within days, even within, I just said, I became convicted of some things in my relationship with my girlfriend.

And I said, you know, we need to live differently. She broke up. So, which is great. It was God. God was giving, setting me free, you know, from, uh, from something, setting me free to follow him. And so things like things like that began to develop this internal righteousness.

That's good. We'll, we'll tackle, yeah, we'll tackle, um, chapter two and three at the same time then. Cause I think it's relevant because it's the gospel of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation. So how is then the Mormon plan of salvation better than the biblical plan of salvation?

Well, from their perspective, it, it has, first of all, a different perspective of human nature. And so, so the plan is the plan of salvation. They're talking about how this is where God, how God took initiative.

And this is where Jesus came in. And this is your scent. There's a story of from like year zero to the future. Now they would say it's better because it is a different anthropology that you as a human being, you're not an abject sinner, but you, yeah, you sin, but you really are a God in embryo.

You really have the potential to become divine. And here's how, you know, just follow, you follow this. And that talks more in their chapter in the gospel talks more about the how, but, but also it, from their point of view, it's better than the Christian gospel because it offers a, an eternity that allows you to continue to develop your potential divinity.

You know, it's an open ended. So it's really, it's an aggrandized view of eternity that plays to human arrogance. Right. Wow. And that, that speaks to a lot of people for sure.

Wow. Let me, so we're going to handle it this way. I'm going to ask you first, Wade, what the gospel is and I'm going to ask you what the gospel is to a Mormon. So pastor Wade, what is the gospel?

Sure. The gospel is the good news that God created everything. He created men and women in his own image and likeness and these men and women, the first ones, the prototype of all humankind, they fell in the garden and they sinned and Adam was our federal head and it impacted all of us.

The apostle Paul says, all in Adam die and and so therefore all in Adam are fallen. And so we're now at a predicament with God. He is holy and righteous and just and good and we are not. And if God is good or I should say since God is good he must punish all sin, all things that are in opposition to his character, likeness, nature and attributes.

And so that's the bad news is that we have sinned and we've fallen short of the glory of God. And that's what's hard is God is perfect. And we often bring him down to our level, but he's actually much higher than we could have ever imagined.

And the good news is is that God sent his one and only son who is God from all eternity according to the Bible himself. And he stepped into his own creation and he took on the likeness of men. He became like his brothers in every respect.

He endured all that we endured. He faced all that we faced, tempted in all ways and yet without sin. He lived all the ways that we could never live, that we could never measure up. When the law and the commandments of God are put up against us, we're seen to be completely wanting.

We're desperate before a holy God and Jesus lived this perfectly. And then he was taken to the cross. He died what's called a vicarious substitutionary atonement. That means we literally should have been in Jesus's place taking on the wrath of God upon ourselves that we deserved.

But that's what's amazing is Jesus took the wrath for us. He made atonement for sin and what the blood of bulls and goats could not do, his blood was sufficient for all to do on that cross. And then he rose again three days later showing that exactly what he did on the cross, that what he said it would achieve, it will do.

It will conquer and defeat death and it will do it. He was able to have power over death and now he has power over death in such a way that he will raise us from the dead and grant us eternal life. And that's the promise of the gospel.

And literally it's only Jesus's finished work alone that gives us that hope in that eternal life. It's, it's, as Paul says, it's nothing that we can do. It's nothing. It's not of man. It's not a result of works.

By work, by the works of the law, no flesh shall be justified in his sight that is made righteous before God. The only way to be made righteous before God is the, is the finished work of Jesus and believing in that and believing in him.

And he gives that belief and he imparts that faith through his grace, unmerited favor. So that's the long version.

I love it. There we go. The gospel. So what, I want to hear what you would say the gospel is for Mormons, just because I've asked this question so many times on the street and I never, ever get a straight answer.

I asked him, I go, well, what is the gospel and it's never really succinct. There's no solution. There's no good news. So what is the gospel according to Mormonism?

Yeah. So the predicament, the way it started with the predicament, which is where the gospel begins, the predicament for Mormonism is yes, we are sinners and yes we are under God's judgment, but we also have this potential, like I mentioned before.

And so we, we need to get into the, we need to be able to find the system or find the appropriate response that we can, we can be repent of our sins and be forgiven of our sins and, and then achieve this exaltation, this future home in, in heaven with God, the father, and all the things that that implies in Mormon theology.

So it's not, it's it's not as strikingly much of a peril. It's not, it's not a huge peril, especially. So it appeals to the Mormon idea of being worthy and growing into, you know, being a good person, whatever.

But so the gospel, the good news, Jesus has a role. It's a central role. It's a, it's an essential role, but it's not the complete role that, that you've described.