Have You Not Read S2E24 - Pastor Power

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the

Saints. Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the podcast.

Thank you. I'm Andrew Hudson and joining me today are David Casson, Chris Giesler.

All right, we have a question sent in. Could you discuss the problems with too much power being concentrated in a senior pastor position?

At that, what is the biblical model for church governance? David. Oh yeah, this is not a common debate throughout church history.

What is the right method of church government? There is always a danger of having too much power concentrated in one individual.

In our church, we like the plurality of elders. We have a board.

Now we happen to be large enough for that. We're not a large church, and the larger church has the more infrastructure and the more bureaucracy that you have to have just to keep things going.

I mean, some churches you have teaching elder, preaching elder, you have counseling elders, and others.

But in some small churches, sometimes you only have one, one elder. That doesn't mean it's not a church.

There's just a danger. So you're saying sometimes this is merely just a function of size of the congregation?

I say that would be a factor. That would be, that's often a factor. Sure. So if you have a church with one, one elder, you run the risk of having all authority, all teaching, all counseling, everything going through that one person.

And that's a lot for one person to shoulder. The benefit of having the plurality of elders, that one person who is shepherding souls, leading entire families, the weight that is on their shoulder, that's on our pastor's shoulders, the reason why we pray for our pastor and why you should pray for yours, they're held to that standard.

And they're actually held, they're held to a higher standard, and they, they have greater accountability as a result.

I mean, not let many of you ask to become teachers. Why? Because you're held to account for that. So the plurality of elders gives them accountability and allows someone to speak to them as a peer behind closed doors.

One -on -one, two -on -one, this is what we think. And if he was, is going to take the church in a slightly new direction, or there's going to be teaching on something that's sort of controversial, he can bring it to the board.

He can bring it to these older men, older in the faith, and they can discuss that. So I think that that's, we see that in the

United States, we see that in Western Europe, we see it in the kind of the neoliberal traditions of democracy.

You know, we like voting, we like everybody having a say. A say, sure. But what does the

Bible actually say about church governments? I mean, do we put everything up to a vote? I mean, is it 51 % of the congregation?

And then, you know, our elected representatives there as deacons and elders do the will of the mob? Or what does the

Bible have to say about this? And I've talked about the plurality of elders, and I think that we have some biblical modeling for that.

So we'll go through a couple of those things, but what does the Bible say about the different offices? We have pastors, we have elders, overseers, and I think these are used interchangeably.

This is the big debate. This is the big debate among evangelicals. We're talking people who know, learn, submit to, and agree that the

Bible is true. Well, you have Presbyterian model, you have an Episcopal model, you have, you know, different kind of hierarchies, threefold office, twofold office.

Do you have a bishop and elders, or do you consider the elder and the bishop and the overseer all the same?

Is it Episcopos? Episcopos is bishop. Is it overseer? Pastor? Shepherd? Why do you think that the bishops in a lot of more high churches, like the

Anglican Church, actually has like a little shepherd's crook? Well, because they're shepherds. I grew up in that tradition, and it's not necessarily wrong, but I think upon examination of scriptures, that these words are used interchangeably.

I think we really have a two office, and we see that in Baptist circles. We see the elder and the deacon.

Nobody makes an argument that the deacon and an elder is the same thing. Nobody really does that in Bible believing circles that I've seen.

Sure, but a lot of people do the shepherd, elder, and overseer as the same office.

What do you guys think? What have you heard, and would you agree that that's what the Bible teaches? I've talked to some people.

I think the one I have in mind was Church of Christ, and he brought up pastor as one thing, and then elders as something separate than the pastor, and he talked about having an elder board that kind of makes the decisions, and the pastor is in charge of teaching, so he separated it out that way.

Andrew? My experiences have been in congregations that I've attended, they're basically synonymous.

Pastor, elder, they were treated as synonymous, and overseer. Or even if they do make the separation of the titles, what they delegate to those positions might sometimes differ, because I've been in some churches where the deacons were the committee that made the decisions for the congregation as well.

So where would you go, David, to demonstrate what the Bible says about pastors, overseers, bishops, deacons maybe?

Well, you can do word studies, and you can pull out the concordance, and you can go through all of the different places that these are used, and you could make a case, and people have made strong cases on either side.

I think what's non -negotiable is the character of the man that is in this position.

Okay, so you used the man there. I did, I did. I happened to use that term. I have a feeling you used it for a good, for a right reason though, right?

Yes, we certainly do. So why don't we turn to, I think we'll turn to 1 Timothy 3.

That's a good place to start. So we have qualifications for overseers. Now we have heard this before, and it's good to go over these again.

The saying is trustworthy, if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober minded, self -controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome.

And we'll come back to that, gentle, not quarrelsome, in a second. Not a lover of money, he must manage his own household well, with all dignity, keeping his children submissive.

If someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will they care for the church, for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he else he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

It is an unfortunate part of American culture that when somebody who is rather famous converts to Christianity, they tend to be lifted up.

Someone who is a celebrity, or someone who is very powerful in business, or I mean, we're talking people that have actual genuine conversions.

It's like, wow, this is amazing that this person has come to faith. Great, let's get him into the church, let's train him up, maybe he'll become a deacon in a year or two.

Or maybe he should be a leader in the church. He's a leader in business, he's a leader in politics. Sure, the automatic thought is, oh, they're a leader in this field, hey, they should be a leader in the church.

Right, that would be a false, you know, false equivalent. I want to make sure that we caveat this.

2 Timothy 2, 24 through 25. Chris, would you mind? And the

Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.

God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. So we have someone who is gentle, not quarrelsome, but still corrects.

They correct with gentleness. They do engage, they are direct, but they do so knowing that they too are sinners as well.

And patiently enduring evil. Yes. So what is our response to leaders like this?

Leaders like what? To leaders that are patient, leaders that are sober.

These are qualified elders who are filling the elder of office, the elder office, the overseer office, properly.

How are we to respond? And Hebrews 13, 7 says, remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the

Word of God, consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. We are to remember our leaders, remember those who spoke and spoke to the

Word of God to us. So that's all the body members? Yes. Yeah. So leaders teach.

Now this is not just an elder, it's not just an overseer. You can't have leaders, you can't have people who can teach the

Word of God and speak with authority. So their authority comes from the Word, just like all other teachings from authority being the

Word. Yes. Well and it's patiently teaching, correcting.

It's not like they're turning a blind eye, but it isn't just telling people what to do. It's not a domineering, quarrelsome, my way or the highway.

If you don't like it here, go somewhere else. It's patiently teaching from the

Word. Which I believe that's what this question is presupposing. This idea of being a power, too much power being unchecked.

Is this the assumption that the power will be wielded in a way that's with hatred, anger, malice towards others if they disagree?

Is that what this question is getting about? More than likely that's this person's experience.

And in Hebrews 13, this same chapter we just talked about remembering your leaders who teach and the kind of character that these men should have.

Which if you have someone who is not displaying that character, who got into that office perhaps before they should have, or has just been in it too long, or something has happened to them, from their perspective they quote things like Hebrews 3 17.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls. They can wield that like a club.

Sure. They forget the second part of the verse as those who will get have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grumbling, for that would be of no advantage to you.

So our response to good leaders is to submit.

Remember them. Pray for them. But the Word of God clearly tells us the character of the kind of men who should be in these offices.

And when they no longer reflect that character, what do we do? What then is the next step?

Well first off, you have to know what the list is. Yeah. So I think of like if a brother sins, go to him and speak to him one -on -one.

You're talking about church discipline. Right. That starts that list, but he's human also.

And no one is perfect, so we're all prone. There may be an issue there that he should be lovingly confronted on.

Obviously with prayer, but speaking to them about it. And if from there, if they don't listen to you, you take someone with you to speak about it.

I think that that would be kind of starting the process of, hey, there's a problem here between the shepherd and the flock.

Can we talk to you about it? Now this could be unorthodox teaching. This could be something that's unbiblical, that they've spoken from the pulpit, and we need some clarification.

But the example, Andrew, that you just gave was there was something in his delivery, something in his personality, something in the way he's treating others.

He's not treating his flock with that gentleness, that care. I mean, you know, sometimes, you know, if you have a flock, you know, sometimes they require the staff, sometimes they require the rod.

Sure, that's part of discipline. But what you're describing is someone whose only tool is the rod.

Yeah, that's what this question really, I believe, is hitting at. So I don't want to get too personal, but have you guys ever been in congregations like this, where you had a leader, not the senior pastor, but it was someone on staff who exhibited these kind of characteristics?

Yes, I have. And it can be difficult. And I was thinking about this verse, and I think one of you guys brought it up.

1st Timothy 5 .1. Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers.

I found myself in that position. What do I do? I know that I'm younger. I know that he has spiritual authority as a teacher, but I'm concerned about something.

And so our approach should not be to go in and just throw the book and say, this is what you're doing wrong, but as a father, younger men as brothers.

So the Bible does give us some instruction on how to approach that. But yeah, it can be difficult when you're in a church like that, and you feel like there's no recourse.

What do I do? He's the leader of this operation. Yeah. So you're like, I don't want to stage a revolt.

I'm not trying to cause a church split or anything like that. But the Bible, you know, teaches clearly on certain things.

And if there's a concern about the pastor, then what do you do there? So you were talking about Matthew 18, talking about that church discipline.

So you're actually saying as a congregant, this may be a situation where if there is no elder board, there's no one else to go to, you have one person that you may have to execute church discipline on your own pastor.

Well, not you as a person alone, I wouldn't think. Like you are now disciplined.

With two or three witnesses. Yes. Right. And that would take. So that goes beyond the personal responsibility.

There's a congregational responsibility there. And I think that's, that's the key right there. That if I have an issue with something that my own pastor has said or done, would

I go to him one -on -one first? I would hope so. Don't you love him? I do love him.

Isn't there a verse that talks that specifically talks about not, not going to an elder unless there's two or two or more witnesses.

Is that 1st Timothy 5, 19? Yeah. Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.

There you go. So I think it would be fine to talk to someone as a peer one -on -one.

I'm not bringing an accusation, I'm asking a question. But if I was going to confront and say, okay, this is an issue, I know this is an issue.

We have the biblical standard of two to three witnesses. That's actually what Matthew 18 is talking about there.

It's not talking about where two or three are gathered, there I am in their midst. That's a horribly overused, it's horribly misused verse.

That doesn't mean, as long as I have two to three people, Jesus is among us. That would mean that prisoners who are by themselves, who are being persecuted.

Sorry about you. Yeah. You don't, well, you just, you need two or three other people. No, Jesus is with you because you are, you are the new temple of the

Holy Spirit. So Christ is with you and he's with the congregation. It's a direct reference to Mosaic law, two or three witnesses.

And that's exactly what it's talking about. When you're going to bring an accusation against an elder, someone to whom you should be submitting, to whom you should be reverent, to whom you should be respectful.

You know, honor to whom honor is due. I mean, all that is true. But you have a higher duty to Christ.

Christ is King, not the elder. All of the elders, your pastor's authority is derivative, comes from Christ.

Your elder board or elders, teaching elders and deacons, authority is derivative.

It comes from Christ. And what we have in the Word of God are very clear, not just guidelines, you have clear stipulations.

This is what an elder is supposed to be like. This is who is supposed to be an overseer.

And when they reflect the standards that Christ has set and put down for us, then you submit.

Because submitting to them is submitting to Christ. But if they are outside of those bounds and you follow them and submit to them, you're actually not submitting to Christ.

You have a higher duty to follow His rules, His Word. And when the overseers are outside of that, you have a duty to bring two or three of your fellow congregants together with the

Word of God as the authority and confront. And you do it with loving respect, but you do it with gentleness, but you do it with with salt.

And you're clear about it because the Word of God is clear about it. When I think of why they were given, why do we have these elders?

And maybe here in a minute we can talk about places where it talks about a plurality of elders. But in Ephesians 4 verse 11 it says this, and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherd and teachers.

Some places kind of have those, like shepherd teacher, shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry.

I think there there can be this idea that we're the lowly congregation and we come to this place called the church and the pastor is the one that does ministry.

And we looked it to him, but here it's saying, well, he's equipping the saints.

He's equipping the congregation for ministry. And so we have an active role in that as well.

And what the church, how the church functions. We have a responsibility, like you were saying, both to the church and the leaders, but also to that individual.

We should have a concern for that individual if we see some sin there, but we shouldn't just rush in and and try to start attacking the pastor because he has that position.

Like you said, the the authority is derived from Christ. That's where he get his authority. If he's no longer submitting to Christ, then does he still have that authority?

And I think that's a key question, you know, to ask. At some point he does not.

But in these initial stages, yes. I mean, you treat him as someone who is under an enormous amount of pressure, someone who carries a great weight.

I'm reminded of Mark chapter 10, 42. Jesus called to them and said, you know that those who are considered rulers of the

Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you.

Whoever would be great among you must be the servant, and whoever would be first among you must be a slave of all.

For even the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

So, I mean, so the standard of the shepherd, the good shepherd, lays down his life for the sheep. I mean, that's what a shepherd is supposed to do.

I mean, those of you who are shepherds of your family, that's, yeah, you protect and you lay down your life for your sheep.

And this is why those who are in these positions of authority, who carry this weight, should be treated with respect.

Because if you were in that position, you may not have handled it quite as well. So, do come at it with humility, but I'd like that the

Word of God gives us a recourse, says that these are still sinners, these are still human men, and really require your prayers, they require your accountability, they require your help, and not just your respect, not just your blind, you know, allegiance, because your allegiance is to Christ.

So, holding them accountable, and you had mentioned it there, Chris, it is the most loving thing that you can do. If you cared nothing for someone, if you really hate someone, you let them go their own way.

Yeah, yeah. Or even if you felt like what they were saying or doing was wrong, and you're not talking to them, but you're talking to other people in your congregation about it, well, that's gossip.

And you're commanded not to gossip as a, you know, as a Christian. That's not something that we should be doing.

And so, if you're not going to lovingly go to the source of the problem, then you're being unbiblical as well.

Now, if you're going to engage in this, which I don't envy, and the person who had to ask this question, I do not envy the position that they're in.

That is really, really difficult, I feel for you, I do. There is a tradition in some small churches in the

United States where you have a single pastor who becomes like a mini -pope, who, you know, some declare themselves to be apostles, and their word is unassailable.

They speak a Latin phrase, ex cathedra, when they speak from the chair of authority, what they say is law, because I'm God's chosen servant.

It's a scary place to be. I'm not saying that the person who asked this question is dealing with that exact scenario, but there are many people who do.

So, when you have a pastor who has abused their authority, who has, even for the best of reasons, even with good intentions, we have a pastor who has gone beyond their calling, who has exceeded the boundaries set by Christ our

Lord, you have Matthew 18, Chris said. We have our list of character qualities, and when they exceed those, you have two or three witnesses, and I think that's the biblical standard and the biblical model to address it.

So, after you've done that, you've gone to your brother, you've taken others with you and gone to your brother.

What now? What now if nothing changes, and that this sin has clearly presented a scripture warrant to obviously confront this person for how they've offended you, sinned against you.

What do you do after this if nothing changes? There's no repentance, there's no reconciliation that's sought for.

What do you do? The last stage, you know, we do tell it to the whole congregation, and, you know, there's still nothing.

So, you do tell it to the whole congregation and make sure that everybody knows, and I can't imagine that underneath that pressure that he would still be that defiant.

But, if he's still that defiant, and you have the entire congregation, you have the entire elder board, you have all these people, you know, they're pointing to him the

Word of God, and he's unrepentant. That tells me, as long as he is not in abject sin, you know, we're not talking about something that would remove him, you know.

An unqualifying event. Yeah, but he's, it's like, you are not qualified to be a shepherd and overseer.

You know, we're not saying that you're a heretic. I'm not saying that you're necessarily, you know, an apostate. But, at this point, you do not have the temperament or the ability to lead this congregation.

They have to be removed. That is, we were talking, there's this legal stuff that you have to, you know, worry about there.

And, if you don't have the ability, if you're in that kind of small church, I would hate for this to happen.

Because, again, I don't have this position. It may be time for you to take your family and leave. And, you find another body that you can be a part of.

And, if you do have to do this, you meet with the pastor, you meet with the board, you tell them everything that happened.

Because, you know that previous pastor will be calling them. So, you have to protect yourself. You have to be very clear and say, this is the drama that I'm bringing with me.

And, I understand if you don't want me bringing this here. But, this is everything that happened. And, I hope you believe me.

Because, there's a whole congregation of people that saw it. So, I'd say the more public you are, you know, towards the end, the safer you are.

But, you don't start off that way. You start off very small, one -on -one. You start and then you have two to three. Then, you have the board. Then, you have the whole church.

And then, if you can't change and you can't remove that pastor and have a good pastor in there, a good shepherd, a good elder board, then you have to remove yourself for the sake of your own heart and for your family.

And, you find another body. Yeah, there's a verse in Revelation chapter 2 verse 5.

Remember therefore from where you have fallen, repent and do the first works or else

I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place unless you repent.

There's such a high emphasis put on repentance. And, God is gracious. And, when someone repents, there's restoration that takes place, you know.

And, that would be the best, you know, circumstance you'd want to have to happen. But, the Bible does talk about those a lampstand being removed.

So, contextually, what is this lampstand? Well, that's what's great about the Book of Revelation, which is so highly symbolic.

There's so many metaphors and figurative language that's in there. But, sometimes, sometimes John actually tells us what these signs are.

Chris? I think it's in there, but the exact references, I'm sure you got. But, these lampstands are in the churches and the leaders.

So, it's used, it's used in a couple of different ways, multiple ways. But, you know, the lampstand could be the leadership of the congregation itself or the whole church.

I may remove you from being in church, remove you from leadership in that. So, that lampstand is

Christ saying, yes, you are a local body. Not that I'm, you know, taking you out of my body and casting you away.

But, you may not be able to be a incorporated local body, you know, spouting off these things because that's hurting the rest of the body.

Yeah. In Revelation chapter 2, so the verse right before that, verse 4, John to the seven churches that are in Asia.

And, then he gives the different, it gives the vision there of the lampstands. And, one thing that stands out to me is that it talks about Jesus walking in the midst of the lampstands.

So, even during all of this, for maybe someone that's going through this, trusting in God's goodness, trusting in God's timing, praying and waiting patiently, knowing that God has not abandoned you.

He is in the midst of all this. He walks in the midst of the lampstands. And, that even though it's difficult, sometimes he grants repentance and brings that reconciliation.

And, sometimes he removes the lampstand. But, there it says that he is the one removing it.

We might be an instrument that he uses, but we don't have to feel like this personal responsibility,

I'm gonna bring things crashing down. It talks about Jesus being there.

Jesus removing the lampstand. And, that's what this is. The word mystery is used in the

New Testament a couple of times, and it's used here. And, it says, as for the mystery of the seven stars you saw on my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, and the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

These are the churches, geographically, yes, there were seven churches in Asia. But, this is also representative of God's people.

Christ walks among them. He's the one that sets the lampstand. He's the one that removes it. He is the one that has the authority over it.

And, it means when he sets, sets us, this is what it takes to be a leader of this church and congregation.

If you don't uphold the standards that I have set for your leaders,

I will remove the lampstand. It's like, well, I wasn't the leader, I wasn't the pastor. You have marching orders as well.

You have a responsibility as well. You are to be a You are to know the Scriptures yourself. And, if you don't, how can you hold your leaders accountable?

How do you even know what they're telling you is correct? You have a responsibility as a man, not just in a leader of your family, but just as a

Christian. You hold your leaders accountable. When they say, thus says the Lord, it's not what the Lord has said.

You have a responsibility to speak up. And, since Christ is the one that sets and removes the lampstand, we know that the authority, the privilege of being in church comes from him.

And, he can give and he can take away. And, he does do that. Even Paul himself talked about in Philippians, about not going beyond what is written.

So, this word of Christ through his Spirit, which we have recorded in our

Bibles and the teachings of the Apostles, these are proscriptive, right?

Obviously, there are descriptive passages, proscriptive passages. But, what I'm saying on church governance and on how you are to deal with a brother who has sinned against you, these are not just options.

This is how you are to do it, to obey Christ. Yeah. And, that makes me think, obviously,

God has something specific in mind when he sets up his church. And, there's several references about a plurality of elders.

And, for a church that only has one elder, and he is responsible for this flock,

I would think that it could get tiring or frustrating. Because, you're taking on something that you're meant to share that load with other people.

You're not meant to be alone in it. Because, there's several places that say, like Titus chapter 1, starting in verse 5,

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained in order and appoint elders in every town as I directed you.

1 Peter 5. So, I exhort the elders, plural, among you. And so, this task of shepherding a congregation is weighty.

And, if you have a lot of, like you said, depending on size, you might have a smaller congregation or larger one.

But, to be the sole person making these decisions would be tiring and weighty and possibly, you're dealing with sin day in and day out.

I think it's a dangerous place to be. Right. It is. It's dangerous for the man involved.

Yeah. So, if you have the instance of there's one pastor, I can see where you've got a situation where the pastor sees that there needs to be a plurality of elders and maybe doesn't know how to get there.

Or, the pastor is, he doesn't consider that the option.

That's not his mindset. What would someone in the congregation, how would they help that?

Ask the question again. So, in the instance where you have a single pastor. Yeah. Let's say your pastor is convinced that he should have a plurality of elders.

How can you help support him in that? And, in the instance where that's not on the radar, what could a congregation member do to maybe help with that?

Wow. I mean, if you have a, you're basically talking about there are men in a congregation and you're putting out the call.

It says, we need to expand the board. Men step up. And, if they meet the criteria.

I mean, in our church, we actually have a training program for that. And, that's good. There's different ways that they can be done.

But, you have older men teaching younger men on how to do these things. And, that,

I think that is, that shows, if a head pastor is going to do that. You know, he's a single leader, a single shepherd.

But, he wants more. That shows humility. And, I think that's good. That shows a character. And, says, yes, we can actually, you know, expand with this.

But, let's say that's not on the radar. As men leading their families, you can support your pastor and your shepherd.

And, you can hold them accountable. You can take them out to lunch, for example. Or, speak to them one -on -one.

I am not an elder, nor am I a deacon. But, I know that if I have an issue, I can go to one of my elders.

You know, one of the teaching elders. And, says, I have a question about this. Can we chat about this? What do you think?

And, he knows I'm asking kind of a, you know, kind of a direct question. And, I can get that kind of response.

And, I know that if our pastor was by himself, I could do that with him as well. You know, when they're by their self, when they have a small congregation, that's weighty.

That's difficult. So, I would say, first off, take some of the burden off. Even if it's not the preaching, there's lots of things that goes into being a pastor as far as ministry, and finance, and maintenance, and anything else.

There's plenty of places that you can serve. Just ask. I promise you. You go to your pastor, says,

I have some extra time. What can I do? You will be busy. I think those are very practical things that you can do without taking on the office of elder or deacon.

Even if you don't have that on the radar. But, if you're in a small church, and you don't have those things, yes, frankly, the place where you should start looking are the older men.

Yeah. Yeah. And, again, that patience goes both ways. If you feel convicted that your church should have a plurality, but that's not on the radar for the elder, you can't go in and demand and say, well, we have to be biblical right now, and we need to do this.

No, you can't go about it that way. So, that goes back to speaking to those in authority over you as fathers.

Not rebuking them, but exhorting them. And just ask humbly. Ask questions. I think we have established the kind of man that a pastor should be, and I think we've at least addressed the question, what do you do when perhaps that pastor is not who we should be?

And given you some recourse from the Scriptures, what we think a good method to go about that in a couple different scenarios.

Anything else? No, I think that quite addresses it. I was going to say thank you. Thank you, David and Chris, for addressing it from the

Scriptures. This is obviously a topic which can be fiery at times. Being convinced of the validity of the process because it is scriptural is a very important thing for all parties involved.

Well, what are you thankful for? Oh, I am I am thankful that just today,

I mean literally a few hours before I stepped into the booth, I found out that, you know, one,

I have to go up to Chicago and do some work up there over the next month, but I will be placed in Dallas starting next month.

Give me a month or two. I'm still, you know, low man on the seniority list, but I'm ready to sell fireworks.

So it's, I'll still be working weekends, but I won't be commuting like four states away, and I'll be able to spend more time with my side of the family in Dallas as well.

It's a better situation family -wise. It's a better situation for my family here, and so it's nice to have a job where I had that kind of movement that quickly.

So I'm incredibly thankful, as is my family, because we can spend a little bit more time together, even though my job does take me away quite a bit, being in Dallas and working out of there helps.

So I'm very thankful for that, and literally I found that out just a few hours ago. So I was actually thinking about this question on the way here, you know, what am

I grateful for, and it got me thinking about the word grateful. It was like thankful, I'm thankful for these things,

I'm grateful for this, and I just thought about we can be grateful. I think of my former life before Christ, and just taking things for, just taking them without even a thought of being grateful for what

I've been given, taking advantage of them, and I thought that is something, because we can list things like this thing, this thing, this thing, but to actually think about the many blessings that God has given us, and that feeling of gratefulness, that that came from someone personally who gave those things to me, and so I am grateful for a heavenly father that sees my needs and meets them, and it even shows me how to be grateful for things.

Amen. Along those lines, I was, I had a situation earlier this week where I needed some accommodation from my professors.

I'm thankful to God that he was able to give me favor, not able, that he gave me favor with my professors, so very thankful for that.

And that wraps it up for today. We are very thankful for our listeners, and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Having Not Read.