Have You Not Read S2E24 - Pastor Power

Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification Of the Saints before we dig into our topic. We humbly ask you to rate review and share the podcast.

Thank you. I'm Andrew Hudson and joining me today are David Gasson Chris Geisler. All right, we have a question sent in. Could you discuss the problems with too much power being concentrated in a senior pastor position?

The Biblical Model for Church Governance and the Danger of Concentrated Power

At that what is the biblical model for church governance David? Oh, yeah, this this is not a you know, a common debate, you know throughout church history. What is the right method of church government?

There is always a danger of having too much power concentrated in one individual and in our church we. We like the plurality of elders. We have a board now. We happen to be large enough for that. I mean, we're not a large church and the large church has the more infrastructure and the more bureaucracy.

You know, you have to have just to keep things going. I mean some churches you have teaching elder preaching elder you have counseling elders and. And others but in some small churches. Sometimes you only have one one elder that doesn't mean it's not a church.

There's just a danger. So you're saying sometimes this is merely just a function of size of the congregation. I say that would be a factor. That's that would be that's that's often a factor. Sure so if you have a church with one one elder you run the risk of having all authority all teaching all counseling everything going through that one person and.

That's a lot for one person to shoulder the benefit of having the plurality of elders that one person. Who is shepherding? Souls. Leading entire families the weight that is on their shoulder that's on our pastor shoulders.

The reason why we pray for our pastor and why you should pray for yours they're held to that standard and they're actually held they're held to a higher standard and. They they have the greater accountability as a result.

I mean not let many of you ask to become teachers. Why because you're held to account for that. So the plurality of elders gives them accountability and allows someone to speak to them as a peer by enclosed doors.

One-on-one two-on-one. This is what we think and if he was going to take the church in a slightly new direction. Are there's going to be teaching us on bits that's sort of controversial. He can bring it to the board.

He can bring it to these older men older in the faith and they can discuss that. So I think that that's we see that in the United States. We see that in Western Europe we see it in the in the kind of the the neo-liberal traditions of Democracy, you know, we we like voting we like everybody having having a say a say sure.

But what does the Bible actually say about church governments? I mean, do we put everything up to a vote? I mean, is it 51 of the congregation and then you know. Our elected representatives there as deacons and others do the will of the mob.

Or what does the Bible have to say about this? I've talked about the plurality of elders and I think that we have some biblical Modeling for that. So we'll go through a couple of those things. But you know, what does what does the Bible say about the different offices?

We have pastors we have elders. Overseers and I think these are used interchangeably. This is the big debate. This is the big debate among Evangelicals we're talking people who know learn submit to and agree that the Bible is true.

Well, you have Presbyterian model. You have an Episcopal model. You have you know different kind of hierarchies threefold office twofold office. Do you have a bishop and elders or do you consider the elder and the bishop and the overseer all the same?

Is it a boss? Yeah, this capas is bishop. Is it overseer? Pastor shepherd. Why do you think that the bishops in a lot of more high churches like the Anglican Church? Actually has like a little shepherds crook.

Well because they're shepherds they grew up in that tradition. It's it's not necessarily wrong. But I think upon Examination the scriptures that these words are used interchangeably I think really have a to office and we see that in Baptist circles.

We see the elder and the deacon nobody makes an argument that the deacon and an elder is the same thing. No, but nobody really does that in Bible believing circles that I've seen sure, but a lot of people do the Shepherd elder and overseer as the same office.

What do you guys think? What have you heard and would you agree that that's what the Bible teaches? I've talked to some people.

I think the one I have in mind was Church of Christ and he brought up Pastor as one thing and then elders as something separate than the pastor. He talked about having an elder board that kind of makes the decisions and the pastor is in charge of teaching.

So he separated it out that way.

You do. My experiences have been in congregations that I've attended. They're basically synonymous pastor elder. They were treated as synonymous as an overseer.

Or even if they do make the separation of the like titles. What they delegate to those positions might sometimes differ because I've been in some churches where the deacons Were the committee that made the decisions for the congregation.

Sure as well.

Qualifications for Overseers and the Character of Church Leaders

So, where would you go David to demonstrate what the Bible says about pastors? Overseers bishops. Deacons maybe. Well you can do and do word studies and you can pull out a concordance and you can go through all of The different places that these are used and you could make a case and people have made strong cases on either side.

I think what's non-negotiable is the character of the man that is in this position. Okay, so you used the man there? I did. I did I happen to use that That term. I have a feeling you use it for good for a right reason though, right?

Yes, we we certainly do so why don't we turn to. I think we'll turn to the first Timothy 3 that's a good place to start so we have qualifications for overseers now we have heard this before and It's good to go over these again.

The saying is trustworthy if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach the husband of one wife. Sober-minded self-controlled respectable hospitable able to teach not a drunkard not violent.

But gentle not quarrelsome and we'll come back to that gentle not quarrelsome in a second not a lover of money. He must manage his own household. Well with all dignity. Keeping his children submissive if someone does not know how to manage its own household.

How will they care for the drink for God's Church? He must not be a recent convert or he else. He may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace into a snare of the devil.

It is an unfortunate part of American culture. That was somebody who was rather famous. Converts to Christianity they tend to be lifted up someone who is a celebrity or someone who is very powerful in business.

All right, I mean we're talking people have actual genuine Conversions. It's like wow, this is amazing that this person has has come to faith great. Let's get him into the church. Let's train him up. Maybe he'll become a deacon in a year or two or maybe should be a leader in the church.

He's a leader in business. He's a leader in his field. He's a leader in politics. Sure. The automatic thought is other leader in this field. Hey, they should be a leader in the church, right? That would be a false, you know false equivalent.

Gentle Correction, Accountability, and Church Discipline

I want to make sure that we we caveat this second Timothy 2.

24 through 25. Chris, would you mind. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone able to teach patiently enduring evil. Correcting his opponents with gentleness God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

So we have someone who is Gentle not quarrelsome, but still corrects they correct with gentleness. They do engage they are direct. But they do so. Knowing that that they too are sinners as well and patiently enduring evil.

Yes, so what is our response to leaders like this. Leaders like what to leaders that are? Patient leaders that are sober. These are Qualified elders who are filling the elder of office the the elder office the overseer office properly.

How are we to respond. And Hebrews 13 7 says remember your leaders. Those who spoke to you the Word of God. Consider the outcome of their their way of life and imitate their faith. We are to remember our leaders remember those who spoke and spoke to the the Word of God to us.

So that's all the body members. Yes. Yeah, so leaders teach. Now this is not just an elders. It's not just an overseer. You can't have leaders. You can't have people who can teach teach the Word of God and speak with authority.

So their authority comes from the word. Just like all other Teachings from authority being the word.

Yes, well, and it's it's patiently Teaching correcting. It's not like they're turning a blind eye, but it isn't just telling people what to do. It's not a domineering Quarrelsome my way or the highway if you don't like it here and go somewhere else.

It's.

Patiently teaching from the word which I believe that's what this question is presupposing. This idea of being a power too much power being Unchecked. Is this the assumption that the power will be wielded in a way that's with hatred anger Malice towards others if they disagree.

Is that is that what this question is getting about? More than more than likely. That's this person's experience. And In Hebrews 13 this same chapter We just talked about remembering your leaders who teach and they're the kind of character that these men should have.

Which if you have someone who is not displaying that character who got into that office perhaps before they should have or? As has just been in it too long or something has happened to him from their perspective.

They quote things like Hebrews 3 17. Obey your leaders and submit to them. For they are keeping watch over your souls. They can wield that like a club. Sure, they forget. The second part of the verse has those who will get have to give an account.

Let them do this with joy and not with grumbling for that would be of no advantage. To you. So our response to good leaders is to submit. Remember them pray for them. But the Word of God Clearly tells us the character of the kind of men who should be in these offices and when they no longer reflect that character.

What do we do? Mmm, what then is the next step? Well, first off you have to know know what they will know what the list is.

Yeah, so I think of like if a brother sins go to him and speak to him one-on-one. You're talking about church discipline you right that starts that that list, but he's human also and No one is perfect.

So we're all prone. There may be an issue there that he should be lovingly confronted on obviously with prayer but speaking to them about it and if From there if they don't listen to you you take someone with you to speak about it I think that that would be kind of starting the process of hey There's a problem here between the shepherd and the flock.

Can we talk to you about it now?

This could be an orthodox teaching this could be something that's that's unbiblical that they've they've spoken from the pulpit and we need some clarification but the example Andrew that you just gave was there was something in his Delivery is something in his personality something in the way.

He's treating others. He's not treating his flock with that gentleness that care. I mean, you know sometimes, you know, if you have the you have a flock, you know. Sometimes they require the staff sometimes they require the rod.

Sure. That's part of part of discipline. But the way what you're describing is someone whose only tool is the rod. Yeah, that that's what this question really I believe is hitting up. So I I don't want to get too personal but have you guys ever been in Congregations like this where you had a leader food.

Not the senior pastor, but it was someone on staff who? Exhibited these kind of characteristics. Yes. I I have and it can be difficult and.

That I was thinking about this first and I think one of one of you guys brought it up first. Timothy 5 1 Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father younger men as brothers. Mm-hmm. I found myself in that position.

What do I do? I know that I'm younger I know that he has spiritual authority as a teacher but I'm concerned about something and so our approach should not be to go in and just Throw the book and and say this is what you're doing wrong.

But but as a father younger men as brothers. So the Bible does give us some instruction on how to approach that but yeah. It can be difficult when you're in a church like that and you feel like there's no recourse.

What do I do? He's the he's the leader of this operation. Yeah, so you're like I don't want to stage a revolt. I'm not trying to cause a church split or anything like that. But the Bible, you know teaches clearly on certain things and if there's a concern about the pastor.

And when you do there, so you you were talking about Matthew 18 Talk about that church discipline. So you're actually saying as a congregant. This may be a situation Where if there is no elder board, it's no one else to go to you.

Have one person that you may have to execute church discipline on your own pastor.

Well, not you as a person alone.

Like you are now. With two or three witnesses. Yes, right and that would take so that goes beyond the personal responsibility. There's a congregational responsibility there. I think that's that's the key right there that if I have an issue with Something that my own pastor has said or done Would I go to him one-on-one first?

I would hope so. Don't you love him? I do love him.

Isn't there a verse that talks that specifically talks about not not going to an elder unless there's two or two or more witnesses. Is that first Timothy 5? 19 yeah, do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.

There you go.

So I think it would be fine to Talk to someone as a peer one-on-one. They're not bringing an accusation. I'm asking a question, but if I was going to confront says, okay, this is an issue. I know this is an issue.

We have the biblical standard of two to three witnesses. That's actually what Matthew 18 is talking about there. It's not talking about where two or three are gathered there. I am in their midst. That's a horribly overused.

It's horribly misused verse that doesn't mean as long as I have two to three people Jesus is among us. That would mean that prisoners who are by themselves who are being persecuted about you. Yeah, you don't.

Well. You just need two or three other people. No, Jesus is with you because you are you are the new temple of the Holy Spirit. So Christ is with you and he's with the congregation. It's a direct reference to Mosaic law two or three witnesses and That's exactly what it's talking about when you're gonna bring an accusation against an elder someone to whom you should be submitting.

To whom you should be reverent to whom you should be respectful, you know honor to whom honor is due. I mean, that's that all that is true. But you have a higher duty to Christ. Christ is King not the elder.

All of the the elders that your pastor's authority is derivative comes from Christ your elder board. Or elders teaching elders and deacons. Authority is derivative. It comes from Christ and what we have in the Word of God are very clear.

Much guidelines you have you have clear stipulations. This is what an elder is supposed to be like. This is who is. I'm supposed to be over an overseer and when they reflect the standards that Christ has set and Put down for us then you submit because submitting to them is submitting to Christ.

But if they are outside of those bounds and you follow them and submit to them. You're actually not submitting to Christ. You have a higher duty to follow his rules his word And when the overseers are outside of that you have a duty to bring two or three of your fellow congregants together with the Word of God as the authority and Confront and you do it with loving respect, but you do it with gentleness.

You need to do it with gentleness, but you do it with with salt and you're clear about it.

Because the Word of God is clear about it. Hmm when I think of why they were given. Why do we have these elders. And maybe here in a minute we can talk about places where it talks about a plurality of elders, but in Ephesians 4 verse 11 It says this.

And he gave the Apostles the prophets the evangelists the shepherd and teachers. Some places kind of have those like high shepherd teacher shepherds and teachers. To equip the Saints for the work of ministry.

I think there there can be this idea that we're the lowly congregation and we come to this place called the church and the pastor is the one that does ministry and We looked it to him. But here it's saying well, he's equipping the Saints.

He's equipping the congregation for ministry. And so we have an active role in that as well and what the church how the church functions. We have a responsibility like you were saying both to the church and the leaders but also to that individual.

We should have a concern for that individual if we see some sin there, but we shouldn't just rush in and And try to start attacking the pastor because he has that position. Like you said the the authority is derived from Christ.

That's where I get his authority if he's no longer submitting to Christ. Then.

Does he still have that authority and I think that's that's a that's a key key question. You know to ask at some point he does not but in the in these initial stages. Yes, I mean you treat him as as someone who is under an enormous amount of pressure.

Somebody carries a great weight right of Mark chapter 10 42. Jesus called to them and said you know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lorded over them and They're great ones exercise authority over them.

But it shall not be so among you whoever would be great Among you must be the servant and whoever would be first among you must be a slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served. But to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

So I mean so the standard of the shepherd the Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I mean, that's what a shepherd's supposed to do. I mean those of you who are Shepherds of your family, that's yeah, you protect and you lay down your life for your sheep.

And this is why those who are in these positions of authority who carry this weight. To be treated with with respect because if you were in that position, you may not have handled it quite as well. So do come come at it with humility, but I'd like that the Word of God gives us a recourse.

Says that these are still Sinners these are still human men and and really require your prayers. They require your accountability. They require your your help and they're not just not just your respect not just your blind, you know allegiance.

Because your allegiance is to Christ. So holding them accountable and you had mentioned it there Chris. It is the most loving thing that you can do if you cared nothing for someone if you really hate someone.

You let them go their own way. Yeah, or even if you if you felt like what they were saying or doing was wrong and you're not talking to them. But you're talking to other people in your congregation about it.

Well, that's gossip. And you're commanded not to not to gossip as a you know as a Christian. That's not something that we should be doing. And so if you're not going to Lovingly go to the source of the problem.

Then you're being unbiblical as well now if you're going to engage in this which I don't envy and the person who had to ask This question. I do not envy the position that that they're in that is really.

Really difficult I feel for you. I do there is a tradition in some small churches in in the United States where you have a single single pastor who becomes like a mini Pope who. You know some declare themselves to be Apostles and their word is unassailable.

They speak a Latin phrase ex cathedra when they speak from the chair of authority. What they say is law because I'm God's chosen servant. It's a scary place to be. I'm not saying that they and that that person has this question is dealing with that exact scenario.

But there are many people who do so when you have a pastor who has abused their authority. Who has even for the best of reasons even with good intentions? We have a pastor that has gone beyond their calling who has exceeded the boundaries set by Christ our Lord you have Matthew 18.

Chris said we have our list of character qualities and when they exceed those. You have two or three witnesses. And I think that's the the biblical standard and the biblical model to address it. So after you've done that you've gone to your brother.

You've taken others with you and gone to your brother. What now what now if nothing changes and that this sin is clearly presented a script a scriptural warrant to obviously confront this person for how they've Offended you have sinned against you.

What do you do after this if nothing changes? There's no repentance. There's there's no reconciliation. That's all for. What do you do the the last stage you know we do tell it to the whole congregation and you know.

There's still nothing. So you do tell it to the whole congregation and make sure that everybody knows and I can't imagine that. Underneath underneath that pressure that he would still be that defiant.

But if he's still that defiant and you have the entire congregation at the entire elder board you have all these people. They're pointing to him the Word of God, and he is unrepentant that tells me as long as he is not in abject sin.

You were done. I'm not talking about something that that would remove him. Qualifying yeah, but he's it's like you are not qualified to be a Shepherd and overseer, you know, we're not saying that you're your heretic.

I'm not saying that you're necessarily, you know an apostate. But at this point, you know what you do not have the temperament or the ability to lead this congregation. They have to be removed. That is we were talking.

There's there's legal stuff I have to have to worry about there. And if you don't have the ability if you're saying that kind of small church I would hate for this to happen because again, I don't have you this position.

It may be time for you to take your family and leave and you find another body. That you can you can be a part of and if you do have to do this. You meet with the pastor you meet with the board you tell them.

Everything that happened because you know that previous pastor will be calling them. So you have to protect yourself. You have to be very clear and says this is the drama that I'm bringing with me and I understand if you don't want me.

Bringing this here, but this is everything that happened. And I hope you believe me because there's a whole congregation of people that saw it. So I'd say the more public you are, you know at towards the end that the safer you are.

But you don't start off that way you start off very small one-on-one you started then you have two to three then you have the board. Then you have the whole church. And then if you can't change and you can't remove that pastor and have a good pastor in there a good shepherd a good elder board then you have to Remove yourself for the sake of your own heart and for your family and you find another body.

There's a verse in Revelation Chapter 2 verse 5 remember therefore from where you have fallen repent and do the first works. Or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place.

Unless you repent. There's such a high emphasis put on Repentance and God is gracious and when someone repents there's restoration that takes place. You know, and that would be the best, you know circumstance you'd want to have to happen, but the Bible does talk about those a lampstand being.

Removed so. Contextually, what is this lampstand? Well, that's what's great about the book of Revelation, which is so highly symbolic. There's so many metaphors and figurative language that's in there.

But sometimes sometimes John actually tells us what these signs are. Chris I think it didn't you think it's in there, but then the exact references and I'm sure you got but these lampstands are the churches and The leaders so it's used is used in a couple of different ways in multiple ways.

But you know, the lampstand could be the leadership of the congregation itself or The whole church. I may remove you from being in church remove you from leadership in that so that lampstand is Christ saying yes, you are a local body not that I'm room you know taking you out of my body and and casting you away, but you may not be able to be a Incorporated local body, you know spouting off these things because that's hurting the rest of the body.

Yeah in Revelation chapter 2 so the verse right before that verse 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia and. Then he gives the different it gives the vision there of the lampstands and one thing that stands out to me.

Is that it talks about Jesus walking in the midst of the lampstands? So even during all of this for maybe someone that's going through this trusting in God's goodness trusting in God's timing. Praying and waiting patiently knowing that God is not Abandoned you he is in the midst of all this.

He walks in the midst of the lampstands and that even though it's difficult. Sometimes he grants repentance and brings that reconciliation and sometimes he removes the lampstand. But there it says that he is the one removing it.

We might be an instrument that he uses but we don't have to feel like this personal responsibility. I'm gonna bring things crashing down. It talks about Jesus being there.

Jesus removing the lampstand and that's that's what that's what this is. The word mystery is used in the New Testament a couple of times and it's used here and it says as for the mystery of the seven stars you saw on my right hand and the seven golden lampstands and the seven Stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands of the seven churches.

These are the Churches. Geographically, yes, there were seven churches in Asia, but this is also representative of God's people. Christ walks among them. He's the one that sets the lampstand. He's the one that removes it.

He is the one that has the authority over it and it means when he sets sets us this is what it takes to be a leader of this church and congregation if you don't Uphold the standards that I have set for your leaders.

I will remove the lampstand. It's it's like well, I wasn't the leader I wasn't the pastor you have marching orders as well. You have a responsibility as well. You are to be a Berean you are to know the scriptures yourself.

And if you don't how can you hold your leaders accountable? How do you even know what they're telling you is correct? You have a responsibility as as a man not just in a leader of your family. But just as a Christian you hold your leaders accountable when they say thus says the Lord.

It's not what the Lord has said. You have a responsibility to speak up and since Christ is the one that sets and removes the lampstand. We know that the authority the privilege of being in church comes from him and he can give and he can take away and he does do that even Paul himself talked about in Philippians about Not going beyond what is written so this this word of Christ through his spirit, which we have recorded in our Bibles and the teachings of the Apostles these are proscriptive right.

Obviously there are descriptive passages proscriptive passages. But what I'm saying on church governance and on how you are to deal with a brother who has sinned against you. These are not just options.

This is how you are to do it to obey Christ.

Plurality of Elders and Practical Help for a Single-Pastor Church

Yeah, and that that makes me think obviously God has something specific at mind when he sets up his church and there's several References about a plurality of elders and for a church that only has One elder and he is responsible for this flock I would think that it could get tiring or frustrating because you're taking on something that you're meant to share That load With other people.

You're not meant to be alone in it because there's several places that say like Titus chapter 1 Starting in verse 5. This is why I left you in Crete so that you might put what remained in order and appoint elders in every town as I directed you first Peter 5.

So I exhort the elders plural among you and so this task of shepherding a Congregation is weighty and if you have a lot of Like you said depending on size You might have a smaller congregation or larger one, but to be the sole person making these decisions would be tiring and weighty and and possibly fret.

You're dealing with sin a day in and day out and.

I Think it's a dangerous. It's a dangerous place to be. Right, right it is. It's it's it's dangerous for the man involved.

Yeah, so if you have the instance of there's there's one pastor I can see where you've got it a situation where the pastor sees that there needs to be a plurality of elders. And maybe he doesn't know how to get there or the pastor is.

He doesn't. Consider that the option that's not his mindset. What would someone in the congregation? How would they help that? That's the question again. So in the instance where you have a single pastor.

Yeah, let's say your pastor is convinced that he should have a plurality of elders. How can you help support him in that and in the instance where that's not on the radar?

What could a congregation member do to maybe help help with that? Wow, I mean the if you have a you're basically talking about. There are men in a congregation and you're you you've putting out the call says we need to expand the board.

Men step up and if they meet the meet the criteria, I mean in our church We actually have a training program for that and that's it's good. There's different ways that they can be done. But you have older men teaching younger men on how to do these things and That I think that is that that shows if a head pastor is going to do that, you know.

He's a single leader a single shepherd, but he wants more that shows humility and I think that's good. That shows a character and says yes, we can actually expand expand with this. But let's say that's not on the radar.

Mm-hmm as men leading their families. You can Support your pastor and your shepherd and you can hold them accountable. You can take them out to lunch for example speak to them one-on-one. I am NOT an elder nor am I a deacon, but I know that if I have an issue I can go to one of my elders.

You're one of them one of the teaching elders says I have a question about this. Can we chat about this what do you think and he knows I'm asking kind of a you know kind of a direct question and I can get that that kind of that kind of response and I know that if Our pastor was by himself.

I could do that with him as well, you know. But when they're by their self and they have a you know, a small even a small congregation that's weighty. It's difficult. So I would say first off take some of the burden off even if it's not the preaching.

There's lots of things that goes into being a pastor as far as ministry and finance and Maintenance and anything else. There's plenty of places that you can serve. Just ask I promise you you go to your pastor.

Says I have some extra time. What can I do? You will be busy. I think those are very practical things that you can do without taking on the office of elder or deacon. Even if you don't have that on the radar.

But if you if you're in a small church and you don't have those things. Yes, frankly the place of reuse should start looking for the older men.

How to Pursue Elders Without Creating a Church Split

Yeah, yeah, and again that patience goes both ways if you feel Convicted that your church should have a plurality, but that's not on the radar for the elder. You can't go in and demand and say well we have to be biblical right now.

And we need to we need to do this now that you can't go about it that way. So that goes back to speaking to your those in authority over you as fathers not rebuking them But exhorting them and just ask humbly ask questions.

I think we have established.

The kind of man that a Pastor should be and I think we've at least addressed, you know, the the question What do you do when perhaps that that pastor is not who we should be and giving you some some recourse from the scriptures?

What we think a good method to go about that again a couple different scenarios anything else. No, I think that quite addresses it. I was gonna say thank you. Thank you, David and Chris for addressing it from the scriptures.