New Romanists on the Scene

This is the Dividing Line. Be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. Well despite the best efforts of everybody and their uncle, here we are.

We've been gone for a while. Yes, we have gotten all of your complaints. They come fast and furious whenever we don't do a dividing line for a while.

But you know, it's really hard to do on a cell phone. It's really hard to do while you're speaking at a church at the very same time.

It's hard to do during lunch, after speaking on a Saturday morning at a church. So sometimes it just doesn't happen.

But today is a Monday, pretty unusual time for a dividing line. But hey, we can do it when we want to. So that's what we're doing right now.

And it's good to be back here in Phoenix, Arizona. I was in Long Island when it was frigid back there.

One night it was minus 23 wind chill where we were on Long Island. And for an

Arizona boy, that's quite the interesting experience. Actually I just didn't find it to be that bad.

I mean, obviously, the thing I hated the most was all the clothes you have to wear, you know. You have to pile all this stuff on.

And when you get where you're going, you've got to take it off and you've got to put it back on. That's a pain. It is nice to live in Phoenix where you don't have to do that kind of stuff very often at all.

So great ministry back there. Had the opportunity of working with Steve Camp both the major weekends

I was back there on Long Island. I spoke at New Hyde Park Baptist Church on the atonement and then we took a break.

And then Steve sang and then spoke on the subject of postmodernism and Christian music.

And that was very challenging, very good. And then the next weekend, he went with us to the

Tuscarora Conference Center for the Hope Reform Baptist Church Youth Retreat that I've been doing for four years now.

I feel very sorry for those folks that have been there for four years. I keep telling them that they need to find someone else who is actually a good speaker to do that.

But for some reason, they like me and they keep... Actually, I think it's like my family and they just put up with me.

But anyways, Steve Camp came along this time and did music for us there.

And then the Sunday night, we came back to Hope Reform Baptist Church. We did something

I've always wanted to do. It was really enjoyable. And that was, we did a worship service.

And basically, what we did is after Steve got things going, I would give a five to seven,

I doubt I went much longer than eight minute discussion of the topic of his next song.

And I picked out the songs too, which was really fun. And so I got to pick out my favorites. He Covers Me, Living in Laodicea, Stranger to Holiness.

And then I used those titles and the substance of the song as the basis of a biblical discussion of issues regarding that particular subject.

And then once I gave the introduction, then he'd sing the song. And it was really, really enjoyable. That was a lot of fun.

And so really appreciated the opportunities of ministry that we had back there on Long Island. Heading back out there in May.

For those of you who are wondering, looking at, hopefully,

Lord willing, the debate will be on May 29th. It will not be with the gentleman who had said he would do it.

He asked around and begged out of the debate. That frequently happens when people ask other folks who have debated me without listening to debates themselves, sadly.

But we're still looking. And so that will be coming up on the 29th. Last weekend, last

Saturday, I was in Omaha at the Omaha Bible Church. Pat Avendroth is a pastor up there.

And great guys. We did a breakfast thing in the morning. And actually,

Omaha, it got up to 51 degrees that day. It was like 20 -something at night. It was like, you know, summertime after having been on Long Island.

It wasn't bad at all. So I had a great time up there. Hopefully get a chance to go back up there.

And heading to San Antonio, let me move the cool edit thing out of the way here.

I think I leave the 19th. I know that the meetings, the 20th, 21st, and 22nd.

Then I preach the 23rd at the church. So the 20th, 21st, and 22nd. Evenings on the 20th and 21st.

And then a couple of sessions on the 22nd. Doing a response to Chosen but Free.

You might go, didn't you do like a book length response? Yeah. It's called The Potter's Freedom. But the issue hasn't gone away.

Those books are still running about, as is Dave Hunt's book. And so it's nice to be able to have a chance to do that live and take questions and so on and so forth.

That'll be coming up in San Antonio, Texas. The great nation of Texas coming up next week, in fact.

But that will allow us, this coming Saturday, to do another dividing line for those of you who are simply addicted or simply haven't found any better things to listen to on the web.

Which I'm not really sure. Hey, also, I'm going to miss the opening. I'm sort of bummed about this. But the 21st of February, maybe

I can catch a real Texan, Russian. Did that sound like a

Russian accent? It almost sounded like Sergeant Schultz there, didn't it?

The 21st of February, I believe, is the opening for a film.

And I normally don't talk about films. But I am really, really looking forward to this one.

Gods and Generals. Now, some of you have Gettysburg, the epic film

Gettysburg that came out, what was that? 91, 92? I know it had to have been before 93.

Because it was in, I believe, September of 1993 that I got to go back to Pennsylvania.

I lived for six years in Harrisburg when I was very young. And my mother would take me out of school and we would go to Gettysburg.

But when you're that young, you just simply can't appreciate the battlefield and what happened there and the whole

Civil War. Or as some folks in our channel like to put it, the

War of Northern Aggression. You can't really understand all the issues and everything when you're that young.

And I had the opportunity of going to Gettysburg in September of 93 and walking those battlefields alone.

And it was just an awesome thing. I had seen the film by that time, and so it had to have been before then.

Well, this is the prequel. I've read the Shara trilogy, Gods and Generals, Killer Angels, and The Last Measure.

Anyways, I received from Fuller Seminary, believe it or not, a study guide for taking your church group to see

Gods and Generals. Which is the story of the first two years of the war, focused primarily on Bull Run.

Let's see here. There were three battles, I think, probably Fredericksburg, I would assume, and Chancellorsville.

Yeah, Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville. And I was really impressed.

It's a short little thing. It's only, not the movie, the thing that was out here. It's only about 10 pages long.

The movie is 3 hours 25 minutes, so it's not, it ain't short. But there was just some awesome stuff here, and especially focused upon General Stonewall Jackson, Thomas Jackson.

There's pictures in here. For example, the scene before Thomas Jackson goes off to war. He and his beloved wife,

Anna, gather near the fireplace looking for strength and comfort. They turn to the Bible and read 2 Corinthians 5 .1. If our earthly house were dissolved, we have a building made by God eternally in the heavens.

Not built by human hands. Jackson prays, Almighty God, grant that if it be thou, thou will, it should be thy will, avert the threatening danger and bring us peace.

Keep my love in thy care. Bring us all at last the joy of thy eternal kingdom. These are, I'm assuming, things that appear within the text of the film itself.

And then there's a picture of Jackson in his battle uniform, sitting against a fence, contemplative.

And another prayer is provided. And here's the prayer. Dear Lord, this is your day.

You have admonished us to keep it holy. If it is your will that we fight this day, then your will be done. I ask your protection over Anna, your faithful servant, my loving wife.

I ask you to shine your face upon her on her 30th birthday. Dear Lord, you have called me to this place and this hour far from my home and my loved ones.

I am ready, Lord. Your will be done. It is your sword I will wield into battle. It is your banner I will raise against those who will desecrate our land.

If it is my time to come, then I will come with all the joy in my heart. Amen. The thing that amazes me is this film would not have been created without 56 million dollars from Ted Turner.

I'm surprised he didn't get rid of all this stuff. But then, after the Confederate victory at the

Battle of Bull Run, after Confederate victory, General Jackson surveyed the field, finding hundreds of Confederate soldiers dead.

A soldier asked, General, how is it you can keep so serene and stay so utterly insensible with a storm of shells and bullets raining about your head?

Listen to Jackson's reply. Captain Smith, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed.

God has fixed the time for my death. I don't concern myself with that. But to be always ready whenever it should overtake me.

That is how all men should live. Then all men would be equally brave. Wow.

Yes, I know Turner has a cameo appearance in it. I'm not sure he's a

Confederate general, which makes sense because I found out just this week that he was in Gettysburg as well.

He led his men over the fence and was immediately shot dead. He lifts his sword.

Come on, boys. Boom. And he's gone. And I'm going to watch for that next time because I didn't really recognize him in Gettysburg the first time.

But anyways, I'm really looking forward to it. I'm not going to get to see it on opening night. I have a feeling that I'm going to be speaking to three other people on that Thursday night because everybody's going to go, hmm, listen to James White talk about Calvinism or go see gods and generals.

Oh, that's an easy one. And that'll be all there is that. So anyways, looking forward to looking forward to that film.

And I hope all the rest of you do as well. It looks like it's going to be really, really, really cool.

Well, what do we have on the program today? Well, I have some some sound clips. And I'm going to start off with we are going to take your phone calls if you'd like to be involved today, though I have four sound clips and normally

I have 16 or 20. So obviously, it's not as much as I would normally have. But they are at least interesting for you to listen to today.

877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.

If you would like to be a part of the program today, we'll be going to a four o 'clock

Mountain Standard time. It's a couple minutes short, about two minutes short. But I have to go to teach a class.

Oh, that reminds me. I knew there was something else I wanted to mention. For those of you in the Arizona area, and I say all of Arizona because we have

I have at least one student taking the class I'm teaching for Golden Gate right now from Tucson.

So, you know, Flagstaff isn't that much farther. Right now, a little late for this class.

I'm teaching a really neat class right now. We're covering Islam, Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and the

Watchtower Society. And I haven't started a complete rebellion yet.

But my students are having to read the Koran, whole sections of the

LDS scriptures, sections of the Catholic Catechism and works by the

Watchtower Society. I believe in the use of original sources.

It's a very good thing. But I have no idea what that accent was. And if that Kevin guy says something about the channel, kick him out.

OK, anyways. Next semester, the next two semesters,

I'm going to get to teach two classes that have I am really jazzed about them.

These are going to be cool. And hence, if you are in the area, the classes only meet once a week.

So you might be able to, you know, make it if you're in the Arizona area or if you're a really rich person, you own an aircraft, you know, if you're in Southern California, New Mexico, whatever.

Starting late August, I will be teaching a class on the formation of the

New Testament canon and the early transmission of the New Testament text.

So canon and text. So we half the semester will be looking at the issues of the formation of the canon, the

Muratorian fragment, Hippo, Carthage, the, you know, the

Apocrypha, the whole nine yards will be really, really cool. And then we will be looking at New Testament textual criticism, the families and and doing textual criticism, examining variants.

And that's just I just love doing that kind of thing. So that'll be through Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.

You can take the classes as auditors. The cost of auditing is going up, but it's still relatively cheap.

It's probably about the same as taking a class at a local community college or something like that to audit something like that.

So that'll be in the fall. Then next spring, a year from now, Lord willing, obviously, we do not boast about tomorrow, but the schedule is that a year from now.

I'll be teaching a really cool class on patristic theology, the theology of the early church from the end of the apostolic age up until Augustine.

Well, that is going to be so much fun sitting around with with Lightfoot's edition of the

Apostolic Fathers and reading through Clemens and Ignatius and just having a having a grand old time for a whole semester on patristic theology and talk about doing stuff that I like to do.

I just sometimes pinch myself and go, you're really getting to do this, aren't you? And it's it's a lot of fun.

So anyways, those of you in the Arizona area, keep those things in mind.

You might find it somewhat useful to you to be involved with those those classes. And I see folks in the channel making making plans to move.

I don't know that you really want to move over something like that, but I really do enjoy the opportunity that I have teaching there.

A great bunch of students at Golden Gates, Arizona campus, and they just right now we're watching back in, let me see, two hours and two and a half hours.

So now approximately we'll be finished starting to finish up the debate that I did with Hamza Abdul Malik.

We've been watching that in class, and we'll be going into the cross -examination period and I really need to stop reading the channel and talking about Islam and understanding

Islamic apologetics and all sorts of neat, fun stuff like that. So good stuff to be involved in.

I wanted to make that announcement for those of you who are in the in the

Arizona area. The channel's very lively during the daytime.

Maybe it's on Saturday afternoons, everyone's taking a nap or something. It's not nearly as strange as it is.

I will only enroll when you teach a chess class using only patristic pieces. That's good. That's strange.

Yeah, yeah, sure. Rich says we should do these on weekdays. Not a bad idea.

Now, think about it. I wouldn't mind having Saturdays free, wouldn't you? Why have we been doing it on Saturdays? It's all your fault.

But hey, I'll do one a week and you do one a week. How's that sound? You can discuss

PHP programming like you were this morning in channel, boring all of us into a complete and total coma.

Anyways, I hear you clearing your throat out there.

The door's still open. The door has to be open or the fumes will kill me. If I sound a little strange, it's because of the fumes.

I take absolutely positively no responsibility for anything I say today because of the fumes.

I'll tell you. Starting to get almost charismatic in my theology with the fumes going the way they're going right now.

What was I talking about? Oh, yeah, Catholic Answers. Yes, Catholic Answers is still on the air. I find it,

I don't know, interesting to go on their website every once in a while and note the, what was it, $5 .5

million budget, something around there, I forget. All the places it goes and all the things they do and their huge staff and all the rest of that stuff.

Then I sit there and go, you know, not a single one of those people will ever do a public debate against us.

Isn't that strange? I wonder why that is. Well, anyways, I downloaded a couple of the most recent programs and really,

I was working hard on Saturday. We thought we were going to do the program on Saturday. I was working hard trying to find something to respond to and it took quite a while.

I have two calls here. Carl Keating was doing open phones and the only two calls that I found interesting was the first one on Purgatory and then a second one that was on RC Sproul, which

I said, cool, this will be fun to respond to. I played the first one on Purgatory. First of all, you may not have listened, for example, to the debate with Father Peter Stravinskas.

I would highly recommend it to you. We have it in MP3 format, etc., etc. And I would really, really recommend that you get the opportunity to grab that and to show the video to your church or if you're not going to do that, at least listen to MP3.

But what's interesting to me is you would think that, let's say, let's reverse the story just a little bit.

Let's say Eric Svensson, who most of you know, let's say Eric Svensson did a debate with Scott Hahn, okay?

And let's say they were debating, let's go ahead with something foundational like Sola Scriptura.

Now, if Scott Hahn just cleaned Eric's clock, just had answers for everything, presented arguments that were not a part of the standard responses in Protestant works, etc.,

etc., what would happen? I'm not saying that has ever happened or ever would in any way, shape, or form.

I'm just putting a hypothetical out here. What would happen? Well, I would listen to that debate.

I would hear about it. I'd hear about the questions. I would take the time to get the debate, listen to the debate, and then

I'd have a choice. If I'm an honest individual, if I believe that what I believe is true, then in my future presentations on the subject of Sola Scriptura, I am going to have to take into consideration what was found in that debate, and I'm going to have to deal with the arguments that were presented.

And if I just ignore it, especially if I listen to it, and I go, you know what?

I don't have any answers to that, so I'm not going to address it.

But I keep talking about Sola Scriptura as if it's true, then I have no integrity, and I really don't believe it's true, or I'd come up with a response to it.

Now, doesn't that make sense? Obviously, if you're an apologist, and a rebuttal has been offered to your position, if you just keep repeating what you said before, then you really don't have the truth, do you?

Well, I really think that any fair -minded person, and I've had

Roman Catholics who could not be described as being in any way, shape, or form unbiased, okay?

I've had Roman Catholics describe my debate with Peter Stravinsky as a massacre.

I don't understand how anyone can believe that he won that debate. He wasn't prepared.

He didn't know anything about Protestant arguments against the position. It was obvious I knew far more about what he said about Purgatory than he did.

So, answers have been given to the most common presentations concerning the issue of Purgatory.

I may have said the apocrypha once, I'm not sure, but the debate was on Purgatory. Well, how come

Catholic apologists just keep repeating the same surface -level stuff that has been refuted for, well, of course, we say it's been refuted for years now.

It's been refuted for a lot longer than that, obviously. But it has been refuted, even within the lifetime of these individuals, over and over again.

That's exactly what we get in this phone call. So, let's go ahead and listen to the phone call, stop and start it, and make some comments.

We'll be coming up on a break here quickly, but let's at least get it started so that you can hear what's going on there. And Mr.

M. Pierce, if you can make sure that the computer is ready to go, because here we go.

... debating whether there's someplace outside of heaven or hell, that there is this in -between ground known as Hades or Sheol in the

Old Testament, but I'm just curious, would Purgatory in itself, because from what

I understand of the Catholic Church is that Purgatory is a cleansing or a purifying period before our souls are allowed to go into heaven.

Correct. And so, if that's the case in the Old Testament or before Christ in the second

Maccabees period, you know, the 1246 that you mentioned, what would have been the purpose of praying for those souls or praying for them to be released?

Debating whether... Oops, now, I did that all wrong, and I hope I don't crash this one here. Oh, okay, let's go back to...

Now, before Carl responds to that, it's a good question. The man's asking a good question, he's not being argumentative or anything like that, which would never work when you're calling into a program anyways.

I learned that a long time ago. Second Maccabees is, of course, a passage that comes up over and over again.

And as I pointed out in the Stravinskas debate, if you read Second Maccabees, it could not possibly be relevant to purgatory outside of making a very long stretch and saying, well, what at least this shows is that the

Jews prayed for the dead. The problem is that from a Roman Catholic perspective, the people in Second Maccabees for whom they were praying could not be in purgatory.

Why? Because the people that are discussed in Second Maccabees chapter 12 were idolaters.

They had been killed by God because they had gone to battle carrying idols under their clothing.

They were idolaters. They had committed a mortal sin. And so the problem is, all of this is anachronistic.

Trying to read modern Roman Catholic dogma back into this whole period is simply ridiculous.

But that's what Rome has done, and so they're stuck with it. As we've pointed out, if you're going to say that this passage is relevant, then what's the only honest way to do it?

The only honest way to do it is to say, well, these were idolaters, and then come up with some explanation of that.

Okay, they're idolaters. Then explain how it is that these individuals are in any way, shape, or form relevant to purgatory, or praying for them is in any way, shape, or form relevant to purgatory.

You're going to have to deal with that. In none of this does Keating address the fact that they were, in fact, idolaters.

He just simply lets that slide. So let's listen to his response. Well, what this is demonstrating is that the

Jews, in the period of time not too long before our Lord's time, already had come to the realization that prayer could be of assistance to those who had gone on.

Because the passage says it's a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins. Not that they might be forgiven from their sins, but they might be loosed for what we

Catholics call the temporal punishment. That they might be cleansed, as you put it, and perfected.

So what we're seeing in 2 Maccabees is what we almost might call an inchoate understanding or appreciation of that.

I would turn to the end of the New Testament. Now let me stop him right there. An inchoate, an understood understanding.

But again, if you're going to go that far, then you have to deal with the issue of their idolatry.

Nothing is dealt with there. Well, I'm up against a time constraint here. Let's go ahead and take our break. Be right back.

877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back. The history of the

Christian church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation, the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine.

In his book, The God Who Justifies, theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of, understanding of, and dedication to the great doctrine of justification, and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel. In today's culture, where tolerance is the new absolute,

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith.

Dr. J. Adams says, I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout, an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.

The God Who Justifies by Dr. James White. Get your copy today at AOMN .org.

More than any time in the past, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder to shoulder against social evils.

They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements. And many Evangelicals are finding the history, tradition, and grandeur of the

Roman Catholic Church appealing. This newfound rapport has caused many Evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided

Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book,

The Roman Catholic Controversy, is an absorbing look at current views of tradition and scripture, the papacy, the mass, purgatorian indulgences, and Marian doctrine.

James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself that cannot be ignored.

Order your copy of The Roman Catholic Controversy by going to our website at AOMN .org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning

Bible study begins at 930 a .m. and the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m.

on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805

North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE.

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org

where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

How the pilgrim's progress is not an easy way Carl Keating responding to a question the subject of purgatory and by the way if you'd like to get involved in the program today 877 -753 -3341 we have about 54 minutes left in the program today let's continue listening to Keating's response.

Understanding or appreciation of that I would I would turn to the end of the

New Testament in Revelation 20 that talks about nothing unclean entering heaven and the

Catholic understands that even if you or I die in the state of grace unless we're really saintly here on earth probably we will die with our sin with our sins forgiven in the state of grace but with some residual affection for sin well there you go there that was the issue of course uh in the debate with Stravinskis and that's where he stumbled

I mean that is the that is the the Catholic teaching but that ran smack up against the doctrine of justification now again you would think uh that there would be some response to that some at least you know tying into the the response some meaningful rebuttal of the best position being enunciated against the argument you don't you just get the same old thing over and over again uh

I mean we'll have that now in abundance and hopefully we won't have much of it by the time we go another way to say that might be without we need we need to completely love

God we need to be exactly and there's some of us even those of us who are in the state of grace who love something other than God at least to some extent right and yet if we're to to take that image of nothing and clean children in heaven a person dying in that state and bound for heaven isn't really 100 clean there's some part left that needs to be worked on now remember uh

Carl Keating is one who in his book in his book he talks about the fact that the reason that a person goes to heaven is because of the fact that their soul is intrinsically pleasing to God that's the whole issue in justification that's the whole thing concerning the the topic of the topic of justification and whether it is an infused righteousness or whether it is an issue of the forensic declaration and here you see how that ends up coming out and that's that's what we

Catholics think of as purgatory call it a place or process it doesn't make much difference the point is there's some getting ready getting you know the final spit and polish before you go to heaven now those who don't need that would be those who die in the maximum degree of sanctity where there's really there's no self -love or self -interest left maximum degree of sanctity well may

I suggest that is only the maximum degree of sanctity that will ever stand before the judgment throne of God that's why you have to have the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to you that's why this new perspectivism is so dangerous that denies the imputation of that uh very sad that those who used to stand for these truths uh would have nothing to say to this man in answer to what he's saying right now they're all of their attention is to God on the deathbed you know those folks will go straight to heaven because there's nothing left to clean they're already polished up most of us frankly if we look sincerely at our soul say well we think we have in fairness a good chance to persevere and die in the state of grace to but frankly did you catch that a good chance there's roman catholic uh perseverance there's roman catholic assurance we've got a good chance to die in a state of grace we go to mass enough and and uh uh you know a good chance uh what a vast difference between man -centered religion and the gospel of christ you know i'm no saint john of the cross i'm no saint paul i'm no saint anthony i'm way below them and even if i die in the state of grace uh you know i need to get cleaned up before i go in that big door way below them well then you don't have a chance because they didn't have a chance they were unworthy outside and i'm obviously not even referring to the catholic saints who's referring to refer to the apostles what did the apostle paul say in philippians i don't want to have a righteousness of my own i want to have only the righteousness of god which is by faith in jesus christ and and that's in a crude kind of way what we mean by the process of the purgatorial cleansing so i hope that helps well uh it does help uh it helps uh to recognize the uh vast difference between uh biblical theology and theology based upon a recognition of the truth of what the gospel is and what roman catholicism teaches it it most definitely helps so this next call what's coming toward the end of the hour i almost turned it off when we got here because i was just figuring it's not gonna be anything in here um but this this fellow calls up and evidently and this is interesting because i've had a lot of people tell me i've had a lot of evangelicals tell me i'd like you to be on my radio program i did a radio program i did the issues etc last night we were supposed to do two hours second hour just the wheels fell off and the phone lines went nuts and and we didn't do it but i did the first hour the national program on the homosexuality issue and i've been on many radio programs and many times evangelicals will tell me well you know we've got a lot of catholic listeners and i always wondered about that i suppose especially in places where you don't have or anything around that that might be a uh an issue but um uh we have a lot of catholic listeners well here obviously is someone listening to rc sproles renewing your mind as a roman catholic and it's fascinating to hear how they hear us what they think it is we are saying now the problem is i certainly do not have time to go looking uh through or go listening i guess through old um editions of renewing your mind to try to find the exact comment that rc made here i suppose i could find out but um listen listen to this phone call it's it's quite interesting find something that could you could hang his head on or is he just making that up on a whole cloth or okay i've never heard him say that yeah rc sprawl is a okay i got back i'm sorry um i'm not sure why that started right there i must have miscreated the wave but um uh anyways for those of you who are not computer experts or computer geeks i was not referring to doing something in the stands of a football stadium it's a file format but anyways um what he had stated was he had heard rc sprawl make the statement that the book of hebrews had been slow in it was probably due to rc's recent book on knowing the bible and that the book of hebrews had been slow in being accepted because there were passages in it that if misinterpreted could indicate apostasy um i've never heard him say that i don't know what he was saying uh i don't know what his specific uh assertion was but it's still interesting to hear uh the reaction to it in this call find something that could you hang his hat on or is he just making that up out of whole cloth or okay i've never heard him say that yeah rc sprawl is a evangelical protestant uh scholar rather well known uh frankly rather biased against the catholic church and he may be referring to hebrews 10 verses 26 and 27 and let me let me stop right there for a second biased against the catholic church um would it be fair to say that carl keating is biased against the protestant church for some reason that's never mentioned if you say anything against rome if you're actually a meaningful historical protestant if you believe something then you're biased against the catholic church um you know the catholics rightfully complain at the way they are treated by the media and you know what there's no there there's no uh there's no doubt that uh the the media is is biased in talking about uh anything whether and they're biased against catholic church i i agree um the problem is catholic apologists themselves seemingly have taken the uh you know the the lesson book from the media in how they are constantly biased in the sense of complaining well you know uh he's he's biased against the catholic church why don't you say he's a protestant scholar he's a believing protestant scholar and leave it at that uh say he's not ecumenical that would be true he wouldn't want you to call him ecumenical in the first place just don't understand that kind of thinking let's and he may be referring to hebrews 10 verses 26 and 27 which in one translation goes like this if we go on sending willfully when once the full knowledge of the truth has been granted to us we have no further sacrifice for sin to look forward to nothing but a terrible expectation of judgment a fire that will eagerly consume the rebellious or maybe hebrews 6 verses 4 and 5 we can do nothing for those who have received once for all their enlightenment who have tasted the heavenly gift partaken of the holy spirit known to god's word of comfort and the powers that belong to future life and then fallen away well these two passages clearly talk about uh christians who can fall away and be damned you know damn themselves now if i don't know to what extent uh dr sprawl was being serious that uh because the book of hebrews was disputed in the sense of whether it should belong in the new testament and that's true it was at one point whether that was because of these verses that's not not the story i've ever heard the story i heard had to do with um unclarity about who the actual writer was was a saint paul somebody else at that point at least on that particular fact i would agree um the only thing that i've heard of in regards to the issue of hebrews is of course you know the issue of connection with um with uh with the apostles um the content from the old testament um you know issues along those lines uh again i didn't have time to go back maybe someone could call maybe you heard the program uh maybe you heard the uh renewing your mind uh program where rc talked about this and you could clarify that please feel free to call 877 -753 -3341 but anyways at least at that point obviously i do not agree with the rather uh simplistic interpretation that was just offered uh by uh carl keating and i did address both hebrews 6 and hebrews 10 in the context of the book of hebrews uh in some sermons on that subject uh coming up two years ago this summer those sermons are still on the prbc .org

website you go to the second page of sermons and you'll you'll see them there hebrews 6 7 8 9 and 10 four sermons we did one chapter per in an overview fashion but i dealt with those those issues but at least at that point my understanding questions by candidacy did have to do with that and things like that not i think this is something being retrojected into history by a protestant interpretation but you know the dispute about whether hebrew should be in the canon occurred in the first couple centuries it didn't occur after 1517 in the protestant reformation it was already a done deal by them so uh the protestant interpretation that you can't lose your salvation that wouldn't have come up you know so i hope he was just um talking tongue -in -cheek if he was being serious that's not a very good sign for a scholar uh but anyway i took him as being serious okay well well then uh that may be some residual uh demonstration of his basic anti -catholic uh prejudice did you catch that uh listen listen again to again this this one's a sort of illustrated for me you know more of a mindset type thing uh than uh than anything else uh let's listen what he says again a demonstration of his of his basic anti -catholic uh prejudice of you know trying to to retroject into history uh his own senses about the catholic understanding retroject into history what does rome do constantly in her eisegesis of passages like john 6 or matthew 16 or luke 22 or john 21 it is constant insertion anachronistically of ahistorical con uh uh concepts it is i don't know it's amazing to listen to that i mean i mean it is the very essence uh of what rome does and and yet uh mr keating is talking about as if uh somehow it's uh you know um very very strange well anyways i really can't talk much about uh what scroll said because like i said i don't know what he was saying but it's interesting uh well uh just obviously just an artifact of um an artifact of his anti -catholic uh stuff and uh we of course don't have any of that because we are the church and we are are uh unbiased and all the rest of stuff well fascinating well let's completely shift gears here or at least we'll shift gears here i wish it was completely uh been listening to some of the sermons talks arguments discussions lectures whatever terminology you want to use from the 2003 edition of the auburn avenue presbyterian church conference those of you who have been keeping up with stuff know that the 2002 conference engendered a tremendous amount of controversy in light of the presentations that were made and questions concerning what was being said um i have said on this program before that as i see it uh first of all this is an inter presbyterian issue that is a it's it starts uh with certain assumptions concerning the nature of the covenant that i as a reformed baptist utterly reject um i think uh the issue here goes back to uh hebrews 8 the nature of the covenant what is the nature of the covenant in christ's blood um and uh a uh a mono -covenantal uh emphasis on the part especially of the auburn avenue folks uh so much so that some of the the speakers there will not even refer to old covenant new covenant but uh to a new administration of a one covenant concept taking the covenant of grace and absolutely destroying any distinctions that exist between um uh the the time of israel or the the new covenant not even using biblical language at that time which it's interesting one of the common assertions uh that is being made uh is that um uh that's uh someone trying to hold me uh maybe someone else could let them know why i can't respond to the intercom right now um and uh uh really just this destroying all those distinctions that really have historically been held to anyways i've said many times that what i see the auburn avenue folks doing this is uh wilson uh wilkins schlissel and barrett are the four speakers um to my understanding norman shepherd was invited and that very very much troubles me because of his views of justification but um is a a paradigm shift it is i see it as i and this has been confirmed by what has uh been said since then and i just realized i didn't queue up the oh drat uh the uh i'm not gonna be able to play for you i didn't i had it queued up saturday can't queue it up now um but uh uh it was a uh answer given by uh wilson to a question one of the very first questions in the question and answer sections this year uh in which he pretty much said exactly what i had interpreted uh it's to mean uh and that was in essence uh that they believe that where historic reform theology has gone wrong is trying to look through the lens of the cut of the eternal decrees of god as he put it your eyeball isn't big enough you can't look through that lens it's beyond us uh we can't see those issues and therefore uh what we need to do to live our lives pastorally is to uh listen or to look through the lens of the covenant and to view election through the lens of the covenant and uh that's where i see this shift in emphasis uh historic presbyterians i think have have emphasized the eternal decrees the decree of election and the doctrines of grace in such a way um that that really became the guiding principle and these folks are emphasizing the covenant over those things and hence can uh end up coming up with completely different interpretation of john 15 hebrews 10 all the apostasy passages they uh will will view that view baptism uh in a in a in a different fashion there is a it's a completely different perspective as far as how it ends up fleshing itself out they actually are teaching about class election jesus is the elect one uh ephesians one uh as being class election rather than individual election as i think could be fairly clearly demonstrated to be the historic at least reform view of that and i be honest with you don't know how they end up defending the five points of calvinism given uh the interpretation they give of those passages where would you go to defend those other things i don't know but anyways um in listening to these particular sermons i was climbing squaw peak and listening to a sermon given by steve schlissel and i have met him in the past in fact his church and another church got together in a joint uh get together uh where i spoke uh to their churches uh together um a couple of years ago in uh in brooklyn and um so we've met it's not like uh you know we're we're buds or something but uh we've met and um i was listening to his presentation uh be honest with you it sounded to me like he didn't really want to be there in the sense that uh they basically were representing what they had presented the year before but only so that it could be responded to and i could tell there was a sense of annoyance on his part in having to do that and um he had five points which i found somewhat ironic but uh and i i had uh disagreements in regards to his emphasis on probably all of them but at one point uh i really uh the wheels fell off from my perspective and i want to uh play for you uh something that he said and then uh then we will probably go ahead and play it let you digest it uh take our break and then come back and i will uh i will comment about it so let's listen to what uh steve schlissel had to say now the third matter the second one was the unity of the word the first was that god is what we have in the bible god himself not a set of propositions the second was that the word is one this is our possession the old and new testaments constitute one book and what we've been calling scholastic reform thought builds nearly entirely not on the bible as a whole but on two letters now this may be offensive and i know that it would be denied but i'm sorry that's just the case and you just read everything and you'll see that i'm not making this up and i'm not lying it goes back to galatians and romans and these two letters are said to be containing articles upon which the true church stands or falls who we and hogwash if those letters had never been written we'd still have the word of god that saves the letters were written into a particular context it was they were highly charged polemical treatises that were meant to put out a fire or to prevent the fire at particular locations and yet when these books are read by modern reformers especially and by lutherans inexplicably these polemical pastoral and historical circumstances are simply ignored what is dr norman geisler warning the christian community about in his book chosen but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios no dr geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom james white replies to dr geisler but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply it is a defense of the very principles upon which the protestant reformation was founded indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate james white masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme calvinism defines what the reform faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the reformation and a rebuttal to norman geisler's chosen but free you'll find it in the reform theology section of our bookstore at aomen .org

millions of petitioners from around the world are employing pope john paul the second to recognize the virgin mary as co -redeemer with christ elevating the topic of roman catholic views of mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book mary another redeemer james white sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from roman catholic sources to explore this volatile topic he traces how mary of the bible esteemed mother of the lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of god has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed queen of heaven viewed as co -mediator with christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the roman catholic church mary another redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to god's truth you can order your copy of james white's book mary another redeemer at aomen .org

incorporating the most recent research and solid biblical truth letters to a mormon elder by james white is a series of personal letters written to a fictional mormon missionary examining the teaching and theology of the church of jesus christ of latter -day saints the book brings a relational approach to material usually presented in textbook style james white draws from his extensive apologetics ministry to thousands of mormons in presenting the truth of christianity with well defined arguments james white provides readers with insight and understanding into the book of mormon the prophecies visions and teachings of joseph smith the theological implications of the doctrines of mormonism and other major historical issues relevant to the claims of the lds church this marvelous study is a valuable text for christians who talk with mormons and is an ideal book to be read by mormons letters to a mormon elder get your copy today in the mormonism section of our bookstore at aomen .org

well welcome back to the dividing line my name is james white and uh i don't know what you thought but uh i want to replay a section of what uh steve schlissel was saying entirely not on the bible as a whole but on two letters let's try that again builds nearly entirely not on the bible as a whole but on two letters now this may be offensive and i know that it would be denied but i'm sorry that's just the case and you just read everything and see that i'm not making this up and i'm not lying it goes back to galatians and romans and these two letters are said to be containing articles upon which the true church stands or falls hooey and hogwash well hooey and hogwash um seems to me that uh that pastor schlissel uh in making those uh statements has just said that the collective understanding of the entirety of protestant theology from the beginning and certainly um certainly reformed theology hooey and hogwash in understanding the centrality of the message of justification now he's already said in this talk that justification by faith is nothing more than the inclusion of the gentiles in the covenant and uh that is why by the way you know uh folks uh the the auburn folks are very sensitive to being charged with the promotion of new perspectivism and uh douglas wilson has put a a short and not overly um overly strident uh appendix in his book reformed is not enough um saying that he has problems new perspectivism okay fine that's said that's nice um however um it is very easy to understand why the charge of new perspectivism was lodged against statements like that um the conclusion that uh pastor schlissel comes to regarding the nature of justification is the conclusions of nt right now he says later in this talk i didn't listen to nt right i mean i haven't read nt right and so on and so forth fine came the same conclusions and hence um that's why the assertion is being made now i see a very strong distinction in at the directions being taken by these two groups uh new perspectivism is based on on liberal uh scholarship it is it does it has as its foundation um perspectives that are not conservative at all and auburnism does not um the emphasis is different but in this instance um the conclusion ends up being very much uh similar uh and for schlissel very much same now if you heard someone making that statement uh that uh that uh schlissel makes when he when he says what it it all goes back to romans and galatians and it's uh the articles the standing and falling church well okay um isn't it true that uh the majority of uh discussion uh comes from romans and galatians yep quite true is that wrong of course not i that's that's and that that's why i i just go what is he thinking um that's like objecting to the statement to the the self -evident fact that when i was in college the majority of my knowledge of cardiac function and the function of the human heart came from my textbooks on anatomy and physiology rather than coming from my textbooks on greek old testament prophets history and government well duh you go to the sources that directly address the issue and romans and galatians yes galatians had a very specific application to a specific situation but is someone actually going to suggest that what was said in those books does not have application to the entire concept of how we're seems he's saying so i'm not the one who said who we and hogwash uh that's not that's not me speaking who we and yeah there there you go who we and hogwash who we and hogwash i'm not the one that said it uh you go to where the text addresses the subject and romans is obviously i i it's it's amazing to me that he would put romans and galatians in the exact same category because romans was not written to a specific situation as galatians was it is the gospel according to paul it is much broader than a particular fire he wanted to put out where where is this coming from this is this is simply silly and there should have been you know you can hear silence afterwards i mean you you didn't hear anybody say amen after this who we and hogwash if those hear that silence uh yeah it's because everybody was in shock at least i hope so um there should have been someone who stood up and said brother schlissel you are wrong don't don't you understand that you go to the passages that specifically address an issue and since romans and galatians contains the majority of the discussion that's why that exists that case is so is there something wrong with a large portion of the defense the deity of christ being found in john and uh colossians simply because that's where the issue is uh is being addressed i i cannot even begin to understand that but let's put it very very clear very very plainly here um pastor schlissel does not like the idea that justification by faith is an article the standing or falling church he doesn't like what luther had to say about that and i guess he wouldn't have joined with luther at the reformation um in pursuing it as he did i i don't know but certainly at the very very least we can recognize that such statements are not only unguarded but they're just simply unwarranted i mean this is someone saying go ahead and hit me again this is uh this is someone saying hey um i don't care what the rest of you think in fact i'm going to make you even more angry he even says it's going to anger some of you uh but uh this is now this may be offensive and i know that it would be denied but i'm sorry that's just the case that's in your face yes it is offensive i do deny it but it isn't the case and there's no way that steve schlissel could ever defend it in a uh in a meaningful scholarly way so i i just don't understand this kind of this kind of uh thinking it just it makes no sense uh and it's it's very very troubling uh that that would be coming out and i have another clip here and to be honest with you since i made it um uh since i'm made it on saturday i don't remember what it is so let's we will all find out together he has set me free from the tearing of the devil he also watches over me in such a way that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my father in heaven in fact all things must work together for my salvation because i belong to him not when i belong to him or if i belong to him or if i have a good or bad or mediocre experience but i do belong to him and because i belong to him christ by his holy spirit assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him uh here we go i i wondered why i'd made this one of the things that is so troubling uh to me and to many others in listening to the uh the auburn avenue individuals and again those well there's not just one you know they all get different emphases fine um i can guarantee you one thing i wouldn't be speaking there i'm not going to speak in some place where norman shepherd speaking except to debate him um if they're all banding together and and presenting this stuff uh fine um but what i'm hearing in more than one of the speakers and i heard in schlissel here he's going after the ordo salutis and he's saying look for covenant children the ordo salutis is ridiculous they're already christ's they're already his we should not be seeking a conversion experience from them they're already in the covenant and see that's where when i you know my presbyterian friends that that i've always talked to about this we may disagree but at least one thing i've been able to say up till now um is that the ones that i knew and i had communion with called their children to repentance and faith in christ what i'm hearing is you don't do that that's not the norm for covenant children you look back to your baptism and that's why all this stuff about baptism regeneration has come up that's what we're talking about in this quote let's listen to the whole thing he has set me free from the tearing of the devil he also watches over me in such a way that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my father in heaven in fact all things must work together for my salvation because i belong to him not when i belong to him or if i belong to him or if i have a good or bad or mediocre experience but i do belong to him and because i belong to him christ by his holy spirit assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him the foundation of our faith is the whole word of god the whole history of god's dealings the whole story including james a man is justified by what he does and not by faith alone this is also what paul taught when he says if i have a faith that passes the most rigorous presbytery examination but have not loved it's worthless this is what he said when he said in galatians the only thing that counts is faith working by love well i want to be as generous as i can be um i have uh close friends involved in this movement and um all of us have benefited from people like douglas wilson but that last section starting with the quotation of james 2 through galatians 5 could be played on ewtn without anyone noticing anything at all i have heard the exact same language utilized by scott hahn and robertson jenis and all the other roman catholic apologists without any uh explanation in the exact same context now steve schlissel talks about how he doesn't agree with romanism fine then how would you respond to them i didn't hear him giving any context james chapter 2 i didn't hear him explaining james chapter 2 in any type of of meaningful way he just simply quoted it and then he quotes from galatians and is it not the did not the council of trent emphasize that very passage and talk about faith working by love as the means for inserting their entire sacramental system is reform theology so broken from their perspective that they will try to to to deal with a a small number of people over here with this kind of teaching while opening the door to the billion roman catholics to feel content in their way salvation have we lost our priorities here it certainly seems so now i wasn't there and some of the folks that gave responses were not exactly the folks that i would want to be giving responses i i think that i think that these questions need to be asked and unfortunately what i've been observing lately anyways is uh i just saw this week an individual ask a series of questions i'll admit i don't know that i really understood the whole intention of all of the the questions that were asked but they seemed fair anyways and schlissel's response to him was i don't recognize what book of the bible these were taken from that was the only response he got i i don't see right now it's it's all emotions it's all charges and counter charges and back and forth i don't hear a lot of meaningful interaction i've tried to get into some of that with some of the folks even our own channel that are seemingly enamored with this kind of thing and i i don't get a lot of response i i want to know what the difference is between myself and let's assume for the sake of argument though some people might want to argue the point let's assume for the argument i am a christian that uh that i have been born again that i am in christ jesus as one of his people what's the difference between myself and a child baptized at the font i know what the historic difference is from a presbyterian perspective but what i'm hearing schlissel and wilson and wilkins and barrett saying i don't know how to answer that it's not being answered the same way it's been answered by my presbyterian friends before that much i'm certain of and if i can get answer that then we can start talking about the nature of the atonement what it means to be in christ and of course i think it all goes back to missing what the new covenant is in the first place from the least to the greatest of them they all know me it is a better covenant it is better in the same way that christ's sacrifice is better than the sacrifice of bowls and that's not just quantity that's quality so i see that as an issue but man when i when i hear this kind of citation it really makes me concerned the foundation of our faith is the whole word of god the whole history of god's dealings the whole story including james a man is justified by what he does and not by faith alone this is also what paul taught when he said if i have a faith that passes the most rigorous presbytery examination but have not loved it's worthless i i want to stop right there also um i have heard participants in the auburn avenue conference uh complaining bitterly about how the whole movement is being treated by those that they say are stuck in confessionalism um that they are uh emphasizing theology above scripture etc etc however um it sounds to me that these folks don't have any problem whatsoever given it but they don't like taking it i mean let's face it folks um i've done a lot of public speaking and if i were in a roman catholic setting uh i know how i could put certain little statements in that would raise the emotional level and temperature why in the world do you have to say what steve schlissel says here when he says if i have a faith that passes the most rigorous presbytery examination but have not loved it's worthless the most rigorous presbytery examination is that what paul said of course not but one thing i've noticed is that over and over and over again in these talks there are these little digs these little shots does that help no can i understand it sure i can understand it but if you're going to keep throwing these things out are you really overly shocked and surprised um when people shoot it right back at you i've i don't understand that i don't know so anyways uh those are the two quotes i was going to play you uh the section from uh from wilson uh where he in essence uh verifies exactly how i had interpreted uh these issues uh and that is that um they see as one of the major errors in what they would call creedalistic reform theology is the viewing of the covenant through the lens of election rather than viewing elections the lens of the covenant from their perspective the only way that we can pastorally interact with our congregations is to do so through the lens of the covenant um and they take what is a presupposition in their theology and that is that baptism joins you to the covenant uh they then i think make a biblical argument that if you're in the covenant these are the things that are yours that that's one of my problems with um with the presbyterian position as a whole is that i would agree if you're in the new covenant then you are in christ and what is his is yours since it's the blood in his covenant of the covenant of his blood you are in him you are regenerate all those things i agree uh the problem is uh presbyterians haven't agreed and so now when they're when these presbyterians or at least pato baptists in general they're all presbyterians uh make the same statement without the qualifications that the emphasis upon personal election has brought well all of a sudden it sounds very different and it does sound very different let's let's face it um but basically what they're saying is look uh what you do when you find yourself in a church where you've got a bunch of individuals who don't have any spiritual life they're they're bored they just want you to to entertain them uh is well you can't you know historic theology has said well uh they just must not be elect and so there's nothing much you can do about it what they're saying is no uh election isn't the issue if they've been baptized then they're christians and therefore you call them to faithfulness to their covenant obligations and hence when people want assurance you point them to their baptism and of course immediately any reformed person goes you get assurance from your baptism but there are all sorts of people who were baptized who then would have false assurance would they not and then you add into this the fact that then now what they're saying is well all this stuff john 15 that was the covenant and the the the vine the branches there that's the covenant and so you're in the covenant and you're cut off from the covenant and and uh all these apostasy passages are proving that you can be in the covenant well the problem is if you understand the covenant and the blood of christ as something that is as liable to failure as the old or at least liable to failure as ill maybe not as since uh wilson has argued that uh well there's more regenerate people in the covenant that's nice but once you make it that well you got to live with it that's the problem at least from my perspective um i say that apostate is never in the covenant of the blood of christ because hebrews chapter 10 verses 10 through 14 says that the sacrifice of jesus christ perfects for all time those for whom it is made and i don't understand how i mean i've even heard language like well christ bore the reprobate sin in a covenantal sense but not a salvific sense the covenant isn't salvific yikes think about it i just i just throw my hands up in the air and go wow i don't i and that's about the point in time when people say well you know that's why you're a reformed baptist you just don't understand these things well maybe but uh yeah i don't know well anyhow that's uh pretty much uh pretty much does it for the dividing line today no one of course uh no one called in today and uh you know i was just left to talk all by myself and uh and it's it's sort of sad you know but uh i just try to try to press on you know uh wonky could have called in today uh after he after he um well you know after that he could have called in he didn't everybody was saying we can't call in uh because we're at work and on saturdays they can't call in because they're not at work and you know stuff like let me tell you if i wasn't a good all right go ahead and turn that back up turn it we gotta play that uh we gotta play that one again uh sound baptist dot wave we you know they've heard half of it y 'all need to hear some of the sounds that are played in the uh in the in the channel so let's let's let's listen let me tell you if i wasn't a baptist i would be ashamed i just turned my sound requests off didn't have to worry about that anymore uh uh how many sounds do we have right now i i have i've lost well uh i'd mind isn't even relevant anymore since certain people who remain nameless continue to get new sound files and do not send them to me or post them on our my family site uh but currently mine anyways has uh 2915 sound files about 3000 sound files between waves and midi files and uh they're probably up to about 3500 the way certain people continue to grab sound files but do not provide them to the channel manager and again they will remain nameless like json like uh but anyways um that's what goes on during the channel uh when when we're on the air and those of you don't don't see it so you really ought to join the channel go click on our website go to the channel thingamabobby and um you are you all uh you all will uh get to enjoy the the great experiences that we have uh there with one another anyways that's pretty much gonna do it for me today um i don't i'm not hearing anything from uh uh misher pierce over there as to whether um thank you there we go i i love that sound that means uh it's time to go teach and uh my students who are listening i hope you're ready for some some fun today because we finish up the malik debate but anyways we will lord willing be back uh saturday afternoon or who knows maybe some other day we're free we're not under law but under grace so we can do this whenever we want we'll talk to you later bye also find us on the worldwide web at aomin .org

that's a o m i n dot o r g where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next saturday afternoon at 2 p .m