Matt Slick, Caleb debate on Trinity/Monarchianism

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00:04
Alright, here we are Wow after show and We'll see people show up And I got to put on the calendar.
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I see if I can do that really quickly here. Let me oh, man Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man That guy does not know what what?
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Excuse me doesn't know what we actually teach in a lot of areas. He's he's close, but he doesn't have doesn't get it
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Hey counterpoint apologetics. How are you doing? I don't hear you
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So you're gonna you're gonna have to say something Let's see. Check the audio. Make sure everything everything's good.
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So I don't hear you man and Counterpoint apologetics, maybe you can talk.
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Hey, come on in Joanne Let's see Okay, anybody calendar, let's see
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At an event Hmm, ah, let's try this.
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Let's see. Okay Hey, come on in you guys now, let's let me put this up on it put this on the
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Let's see stream yard to participate Go to There Mm -hmm and I got it.
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I'm doing this as fast as I can. Okay, so hold on and just bear with me I'll get this up in like less than a minute and Excuse me, so they got there to To see comment on YouTube Go to Boy excuse me
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Let's see You on YouTube and I'm gonna put the URL in Go to there and then
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I'm going to hit save so that so that People can click on the links and they can see it on the calendar and that should be it
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All right whoo Do all that stuff All right.
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Let's see counter apologetics. Come on in buddy. You're in can hear me now now
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I hear you All right. Good good. I had a quick question for you on the person of the when you have
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The Trinity you have the three co -equal persons What is the distinction between each individual person's?
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Intellectual capacity or his consciousness That's a good not their economic position or What they do but from an intellectual standpoint in relationship to each other what is the distinction between their consciousnesses
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We don't know exactly. We just know that they are revealed to us economically You don't want to talk about the economic but that's how we have to because the divine simple
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God Divinely simple God is one being in one essence. We perceive him in the world through the economic
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Trinity and we see in the economic Trinity the manifestation of the Persons and so we detect that we see them talking to each other, etc.
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Now how that works on to logically The closest we can come is to say in divine simplicity.
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There's a paracordic relationship between the members of the Godhead and they are all in Sharing the same divine essence and yet there's distinction among them and we don't understand how it works
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Okay But when you say essence You're not talking intellectual capacity or distinction in the end of it between the intellects of each consciousness when you say intellect
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What do you mean by intellect? Are you saying an election from a mind? for example, if I ask you what is the what is the difference between when the father speaks and when the son speaks
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For one to speak to another there has to be a cause of one toward the other That one does not already understand so there has to be some sort of well,
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I mean one would have to interact between another to have a distinction between something otherwise, you're a the only thing you have is a
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Clone of the other you have a question because I was gonna say no No, you keep going on with these sub points.
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Okay past them So now, you know, I can't repeat what you said exactly to represent you exactly
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So now we don't have any place to go you make a lot of points, but I think nope, that's not it
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You're gonna stop right there and to address those things So when they when they interact with each other
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If one is for a function or a cause that the father initiates Is there a distinction in knowledge or procedure?
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That one has to react to that one does not know to have Do you understand what
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I'm saying? You're asking a multi -leveled Question, that's correct.
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And the problem this isn't just me talking to you This is something I say to people and people who follow me around.
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No, I'll say I don't like answering Multi -leveled questions because I can reckon answer more about this part and you'll go but what about that?
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You didn't answer that Well, it did and it gets into those kind of problems. I've done this just for decades.
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It's just why okay Let's start with this simple question. Then is Does the father?
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Intellectually bring information to the Sun do you mean son as in the person of Jesus or do you mean son?
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Well, no, we're talking about the path. We're not talking about question if you don't come out the flesh
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Okay, we're talking about We're gonna talk we're done I Said you have to let me ask the question for clarification
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Then you interrupt me and you won't stop interrupting me. So you just have to understand.
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I don't like that I don't put up with that I'm what if I say what do you mean by that and you won't let me finish and you keep dominating and trying to talk
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Over me. We're not gonna have a conversation This isn't just me right here. This is how
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I operate This is how I say it on discord. It's how I do it inside of of a clubhouse
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I've given you a lot of time and then you just get rude and start dominating or domineering
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I should say and I don't like that. Okay, so So a and sank you can't get in unless you use a mic or you use a head
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I mean of either a camera or a mic. Otherwise, we can't see what you're saying. Okay? No, it's
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Brian. It's not don't be so myopic. Okay, Brian Don't be so myopic the default of alternate areas topic discussion.
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That's not it We have great discussions if it's all stock of conversations. How come I'm doing this? How come
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I've had thousands of conversations, right? You just don't represent the truth You bear false witness you twist things and you're just you're making yourself look really foolish
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You're not listening. You obviously have an agenda and it certainly is not to bear witness of truth
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Obviously So in sync and sync we don't have anything Jackie I can't even put you in here
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Because you don't have a microphone or a camera That's connected that it's seeing so try this
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I don't know if you can hear me go up to your browser and where it has the lock Where it says, you know
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HTTPS colon call up there right mouse click on the lock Okay, try right mouse clicking on it and then see if there's a when it pop -ups come to open see if there's something about the
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Camera microphone and you can activate. Okay Burn the
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Ross stop a name -calling So I can't say he's a heretic like Jesus says you whitewash supplicators you're your father the devil
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I can't do that kind of a thing. Oh, you guys are just like You know, you're an amateur logicians.
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You're not doing too well Sorry All right Okay, thanks animal lover
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I'll check out that another time Yeah, it is laughable counter apologetics
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It's laughable that someone would come in and I asked for clarification say please don't ask multi -leveled questions and then you start going and I try it and and and you
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Interrupt while I'm answering you and then you complain about me. Are you serious?
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Look at yourself Look at yourself and what it is that you do. I'm so tired
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People who that all they could do is think about how great they are and old man couldn't answer that question.
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Maybe you know I'm answering you you stop me going and then
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I said I'm done with that after you know, and then they go see us laughable You guys are jokes.
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Wow, seriously. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Come on Ah I'm glad to be the
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Trinitarian gymnasium. Whatever that means you to show up mats of respect. Thanks, Joanne. Appreciate it Not the truth of Trinitarian of whatever that means
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Brian Craig Anyway, hey look guys look if you want to come in for a little bit longer, okay
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Here's the link again, all right You can come into stream yard And if you want you can put some questions or comments in the text or where you are
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It'll come into here might take 10 to 15 seconds and I can try and answer it. Okay Not a problem.
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All right That Caleb guy he kept misrepresenting what the
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Trinity was he does not know it as well as he thinks He may have a superficial understanding of what the doctrine is stated as but he doesn't understand how it works.
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That is clear He really blew it. Come on in sync. I can't I can't get you up here because Because you don't have a microphone or a
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Camera but you can type. Okay, you guys can type. All right, so you guys can type
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All right. I'm gonna look at let's see. I'm gonna look through this. I'm gonna look at the
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YouTube part of it See what's going on here? Okay, there's Jose Salinas Jose Can you see go ahead?
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You got to unmute yourself buddy gotta unmute yourself, there you go
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Can you hear me now? Yes Okay I'm sorry. Just I'm just entering to the call.
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I Was listening to the so what exactly I'm sorry. I'm just playing in. Can you explain what exactly was going on?
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What was the question from the gentleman? What was he asking exactly about which quite which gentleman that just called and he's being rude
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Just that's longer right now That guy I don't know, you know, he was
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I don't know because I don't know if you know But you know, I just don't put up with people who if you know, give him one chance
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They don't tell him but you know, if they ask me a question, I'm answering it then they stop me and then they go on with something else
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Nope, that don't ask me questions. If you don't want me to answer them. That's what I say. So then I just go move on Okay, that's it.
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So I don't remember what exactly what he's saying now If I'm I'm mistaken he's mentioning something about consciousness it's the father the son
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I'm mistaken. I'm not sure exactly but I think what I got is if the father of the son Sir, there's the same essence.
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It is shares the same consciousness Yeah, it's something like that but he said Intellect.
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Okay. Now that's a problem using the word intellect because we haven't we would have to define it If I was discussing this with him,
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I'd say okay What do you mean by intellect I'm not playing a game it's like what do you mean and so we have to be precise
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Okay, what do you mean? Oh, you mean by this? Okay. Well, is that the same as this or not? Look a lot of times people don't realize that I've been doing this so long
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Down so many different avenues. I've learned to be precise. And if someone's not precise, I want to know what they're meaning that's why
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I asked him and So that's I would have asked him that and he You know, just he doesn't want to talk so That's it and and can you can you elaborate a little more how how's the how's that I'm a
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Trinitarian But it's in terms of I understand things that were we cannot know. We cannot comprehend About God, of course.
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How would you describe the consciousness of God? I understand There's a lot of manly when it comes to like the nature of God.
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There's things that we can't explain as you were mentioning earlier How can we explain to our non -trinitarian folks because in this case
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I have family members that are one it's Pentecostals and And they get the idea that those believing in Trinitarian God they get it more as a
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Tritheism, which is not true, right? And the thing is that what they you know, what they charge me is, you know
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Tritheism because we're saying that there's three consciousness and within the same, but I don't say that See I don't say that I don't say three consciousness and I don't say three intellects.
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I don't three say three minds Okay. So a lot of times what they'll do
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Is they will say you mean this that's not what I said, and they don't realize I'm using words specifically and what they'll do is misrepresent me
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There is a problem for us to explain How the persons of the Godhead?
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Interact and work together. There are certain things. We just cannot explain. We just don't know
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How is it that there could be three persons as one divine being? I don't know if someone were to say to me.
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Well, then how do the minds interacted? I don't know they involve each other and yet there's a manifestation of distinction between them
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I don't know how that works and I can say that I don't know how it works, right? And when it comes to the mediation between the father, you know, the son and the father
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When it comes to the mediation, of course here we 725 is states, right that Jesus Christ is the high priest forever for the order
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McKenzie Dick, can you can you explain is I Don't know how to explain this.
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But is it literal where Jesus actually, you know, is he? in a way interacted with the father in a sense
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He is as an advocate because I know that that question came along with the Mike said with my
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My folks my family members and they were like so you actually believe that there's two persons
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In other words, yes another person the father the president's son doing the the the intercession
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To the father as a literal. I'm like, yes, of course, and then if you don't have that then you just don't have a
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But I have no mediator. So that's kind of a warning sign there. But here's the thing
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Okay, so they'll say persons. I'll say what do you mean by person right now?
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They might say well you're being ridiculous No, I'm not because person has a definite meaning in the context of trinitarianism
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Different than what you know your person sitting next to you in a chair, right? That's why I had to tell them that I say this is important for us to have
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Understanding I try and tell people that they need to be very precise in things like this and very often they don't want to be because the critics like to work in the areas of lack of precision and They want to work in the areas of ambiguity in gray areas, and I said no.
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No, no, you got to be more precise Because a lot of times sorry a lot of very good questions, right?
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Seriously, I'll grant that those are good questions But sometimes we have to say well, what do you mean by that like the son children of God?
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They're different senses in which that can be understood even if you deny a physical sense you can have children of God the
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Generic thing from a pagan philosophy that Paul the Apostle is using simply to witness.
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Well, what's he mean by that term? It's not exactly the same way that they were using it But he's playing not fast and footloose with the terms
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But he's using what they have an understanding trying to get into the truth now And so that's one issue but then there's the issue of adoption in a legal sense
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And then there's the issue of federal headship and these guys and I'm not trying to brag I'm just saying I know these differences, but they don't and so that's why
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I have to say well What do you mean by that? And then oh, you're so stupid you could They don't even know that About these things.
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I'm trying to help them Okay Let's get to what instinct was trying so let's go over to instinct really fast because he'd been trying for a long time
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Hey, I think Ben. How you doing, buddy? Hey Matt. Can you hear me?
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Yes, we can't hear you. Good. Oh great. I Just kind of had a general question
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Sure, I'm actually down here in Birmingham, Alabama. So it's kind of late for me and put my baby to sleep But I was just curious to hear your thoughts on the rise of this non -trinitarian
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Unitarian Theology I feel like I'm almost 34 years old and I remember when
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I was in high school this kind of started to hit a bump, but I feel like this is something that's kind of Exploded if you will.
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Yep over the past Couple of years and just kind of hear your thoughts on maybe why?
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I actually have some you know close family friends who
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Their children or their grandchildren have been kind of caught up in this and just kind of wanted to hear your thoughts on that I'll be willing to do a dialogue with them and answer questions
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But yes, I've noticed it too Unitarians are on the rise the oneness is on the rise and this is part of the apostasy that's prophesied by By Paul the
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Apostle in second Thessalonians 2 it's going to be the rise of the Antichrist What they are functionally doing is promoting atheism now, they don't realize that now they're gonna say no
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They believe in God and atheists deny God's existence But Paul the Apostle makes I could find it but he makes the hint that though they're denying the true living
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God They're functionally atheists because they're not believing in the one true God who is Trinitarian so what's happening is the devil is working well among the
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Unitarians and the oneness of Monarchists in order to present a false God and the false God always leads to a false gospel
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And so this is what's happening. Excuse me. This is what's happening and yes, I've noticed it and I'm working hard to try and refute it, but It's like pushing a rock uphill because there are so many people who refuse to see and if I could just work with them that I could show them to themselves the inconsistency of their position and What inconsistencies means your position is not true?
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But they don't want to do that just like Caleb could not see and refuse to see the inconsistency because he's blind
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You know when I showed him for example, you know, they were seeing who were they seeing in the Old Testament God the Father Well, Jesus says it wasn't
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God the Father. He was stumped then he tried to come up with something instead of just submitting to what it says
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Well, there's seven persons. Okay, that's one of the stuff we use for the Trinity No instead of that he has to go in and submit the scriptures to his false doctrine
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Because we could say such a person is not regenerate the reason I say that we could say he's not regenerate
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I'm not gonna say he is or isn't but we could say such a person is not regenerate because the Holy Spirit bears witness of truth and they're not bearing witness of truth and Jesus is the one who sends the
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Spirit who bears witness of truth and Jesus is the truth And so what they're doing is denying the truth of who God is
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So that's the spirit of the Antichrist it's the implication is they're not born again, which is why I have to tell people
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You continue with this you're damned. You're going to hell. Oh, you're so judgmental I'm informing you because too many people in my opinion just sit there and go well
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It's a debate discussion. They need to know what the truth is that their doctrines are leading themselves a damnation.
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I need to stop You need to hear it Okay Sorry, I just got a little soapbox
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Yeah, you're right No, I appreciate that.
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I have a Good friend neighbor. They actually were under Frank Barker Started the
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PCA at Briarwood Presbyterian and they have a grandson who's kind of Gotten off.
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It's a complicated story But I've been kind of pointing them to your website to kind of not be argumentative with him because he's
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I mean in this He's in the school with this one this church and all these things and but just to kind of point you
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Right and just kind of point him when he says these things kind of I've been talking with them just to kind of say
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Hey, you know, this is no what about that? You know kind of just laying breadcrumbs
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So to speak of scripture and things that they didn't use a way to not not push him away from them from the relationship
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But to be able to kind of use Scripture and things as an avenue to show him.
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Hey, we're not these crazy You know heretic kind of off the reservation
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I mean it because that's what he thinks every time he's around them and he just Yeah, you know basically doesn't even want to get he's scared to death to go to church, you know
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What do you tell you what their house do it? I got it. I gotta be going soon we got people waiting but I guess you could set up a discussion with them and I'd be willing to do a phone conversation with a group of them and Things like that and answer questions if it's interesting if you think so, you know, let me know.
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Okay, right Okay. Yeah, I appreciate that. We think sounds good good idea. Oh For sure.
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I know that's something that I'm definitely now that he's down his teenage years that would his parents would definitely they've been reaching out and Talking to them about that.
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So That's right Amen. All right, brother. God bless
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All right, and just so that the guy in this, you know pseudonym he's they always hide behind nicknames
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But we if you go to Deuteronomy 6 5 the Lord of God is one the word is a cod which means composite unity
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That's what it means in the Hebrew. Let's get to Alex. Hey Alex. How you doing, man?
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Hey, Matt You did excellent tonight. I know it was tough. It was hard to get around the obstacles of Their I forget the word no problems or whatever it is.
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It's like problems inside the maze It's just like wow
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But I appreciate your teaching we may not agree on everything which you know, that's stuff like that but Having gone to the
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Catholic high school. I'm not Catholic. I was a Protestant. It was because of sports They weren't somebody to lead the football team to glory
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But I end up quitting football after freshman year joined water polo team because the coach was really bad.
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So It's interesting because they don't believe in Father Son and Holy Spirit.
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They believe in Father Mary and the Holy Spirit and in Catholicism, so I think that's the way that a lot of these one is or You know
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Trinity deniers Because I understand, you know,
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I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church It's not just their history. It's what they're doing now and You know, there's a lot of big problems with it, but they're assuming that the
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Trinitarian was Catholic from the beginning Which it wasn't because it's taught by you know, the
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Apostles, you know Paul. Yeah It's a systematic doctrine and people don't get that Yeah Well, yeah question is
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Do you also think because of you know, the ancient histories that have been
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Archaeological finds like Epic of the Gilgamesh things like that where they get into Oh, you see all these pagan religions had trinities as well
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But you answered that very well in the debate you remember that or he said they were three persons not three
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You know as God's right, right. He was misrepresenting They do it a lot, right?
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Yeah, it's I pray about it a lot because until I found you know It was my fourth time reading through the
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Bible finally got to acts and then I saw it I'm like, wait a second. There's the Father Son and Holy Spirit right there is at Stephen's death
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It's right, you know and you can't deny it and he just totally hand -waved at these enough the droids are looking for it, you know and It's because it would have whatever following he has then you'd have to change his dictation to him
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I dealt with that in school. So I'll be short. I love you. I'll let you have a night Thank you, brother.
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God bless man All right All right. That was Alec now. Let's go to Testa go for it.
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We'll quit after you because I got it Do stuff and then I have to get ready for a counseling session.
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I got to counsel somebody. Are you there Testa? I guess not.
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All right Okay. All right, then
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Yeah, Joanne they do follow to be ugly there are a lot of Antichrists There are a lot of false teachers people who think they know but don't follow my her
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Yes, go ahead Wow Yeah, you're with Caleb and y 'all guys were discussing the logos
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I thought is interesting He says the logos is something personal, but you know me and you understanding the one in the mini
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I would ask him. Where does this personal thing come from? Is there some kind of universal that exists beyond God that you know, he wouldn't get it
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He would You don't have you know, you have impersonal like platonic forms that exist above God, right, right
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We could get into that. I thought about that. But it's just he just he obviously didn't understand the Trinity very well what if and ramifications of it and I got changed to a microphone here.
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I got a change to that microphone because this thing's beeping It's going out and I have to do this for the speaker
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So, there we go, and I'll turn that up. So yeah, he failed he failed in several areas and he wouldn't understand the issue the one in the many
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Transcendentals, he wouldn't understand it Yeah. Yeah, I think this stuff should be hashed out with people because it's very important to know that You know without God being as you said because I saw you debate with a
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Jake the metaphysician You know without God being the Trinitarian God, there's no predicate on what's going to happen
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Case and always just one. Oh, it's just the same contradiction Yeah That's right.
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And then if you have monism, you don't have distinctions you can have truth values and then you know It's all kinds of problems.
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Absolutely. We can get into that. Yeah, I would love to contact you about this stuff I've been want to talk to you because I don't know where to be on particular
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Tell you what tomorrow night. I'll be on Clubhouse I do my weekly Wednesday night
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Q &A thing and you can come on and ask questions. We can talk about it. Okay? Yeah, and by the way,
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I just so you know, I don't want to name any names here I am friends with somebody that prepped you for the debate for Jake the metaphysician
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I'm very close friends with that guy if you remember I missed a couple words that what for the debate
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Do you know the debate you had with Jake the metaphysician? Yeah Yeah, I'm I'm close you can't say
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I guess I'm close friends with them mean him hang out a lot talk with each other No, not
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Jake, but the guy that prepped you for the debate if you remember his name's Matt No, I don't remember.
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Oh Remember no So many people it's like when I'm done here.
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I have to go check on my wife because she has medical issues I said get back up here as you counseling for an hour, and then
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I'll be done around 1130 or midnight tonight Yeah, well Yeah, and I got a
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Bible study Thursday That's what we talk about a lot we always talk about do you know a face named
29:27
Brant Bonserman That rings a bell. I tell you what, why don't you If you want arrange a discussion where we all all of us could talk about things.
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I guess okay. Oh Okay, that's how do I contact you only on clubhouse or somewhere else?
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Well, there's info at calm org Okay Yeah, okay try to remember my face then cuz
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I don't want to send you a random email being like from random dude You know, do you want to set up a discussion?
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If you want, but you got it, you'll have to talk to Joanne. She's pretty good about helping out.
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I need help. That's for sure That's right, yeah,
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I have trouble remembering people I even have a picture of my wife with her name on it and it says kiss her.
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No one else. That's how bad I Okay, that's great. Yeah, I love it.
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All right, I gotta get going guys I'm gonna get going and check on her and then be back on in 20 minutes for counseling.