Matt Slick, Caleb debate on Trinity/Monarchianism

All right, here we are Wow after show and We'll see people show up. And I got to put on the calendar. I see if I can do that really quickly here me. Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. That guy does not know what what?

Excuse me doesn't know what you actually teach in a lot of areas. He's he's close, but he doesn't have doesn't get it. Hey counterpoint apologetics. How are you doing? I don't hear you. So you're gonna you're gonna have to say something.

Let's see. Check the audio. Make sure everything everything's good. So I don't hear you man and Counterpoint apologetics, maybe you can talk. Hey, come on in Joanne. Let's see. Okay, anybody calendar, let's see.

At an event. Ah. Let's try this, let's see, okay. Hey, come on in you guys now, let's let me put this up on to put this on the Let's see stream yard to participate Go to There. And I got it I'm doing this as fast as I can okay, so hold on and just bear with me I'll get this up in like less than a minute and Excuse me, so they got there to to see comment on YouTube.

Go to Boy excuse me Let's see You on YouTube and I'm gonna put the URL in Go to there and then I'm going to hit save so that so that People can click on the links and they can see it on the calendar and that should be it.

All right whoo. Do all that stuff. All right. Let's see counter apologetics. Come on in buddy. You're in can hear me now now I hear you.

The Trinity and the Distinction of the Persons

All right. Good good. I had a quick question for you on the person of the when you have The Trinity you have the three co-equal persons. What is the distinction between each individual person's? Intellectual capacity or his consciousness.

That's a good not their economic position or What they do but from an intellectual standpoint in relationship to each other. What is the distinction between their consciousnesses.

We don't know exactly. We just know that they are revealed to us economically. You don't want to talk about the economic but that's how we have to because the divine simple God Divinely simple God is one being in one essence.

We perceive him in the world through the economic Trinity and we see in the economic Trinity the manifestation of the Persons and so we detect that we see them talking to each other, etc. Now how that works on to logically.

The closest we can come is to say in divine simplicity. There's a paracordic relationship between the members of the Godhead and they are all in Sharing the same divine essence and yet there's distinction among them and we don't understand how it works.

Okay.

But when you say essence. You're not talking intellectual capacity or distinction in the end of it between the intellects of each consciousness. When you say intellect.

What do you mean by intellect? Are you saying an election from a mind?

For example, if I ask you what is the what is the difference between when the father speaks? and when the son speaks. For one to speak to another there has to be a cause of one toward the other. That one does not already understand so there has to be some sort of well, I mean one would have to interact between another to have a distinction between something.

Otherwise, you're a the only thing you have is a.

Clone of the other you have a question because I was gonna say no. No, you keep going on with these sub points. Okay past them. So now, you know, I can't repeat what you said exactly to represent you exactly.

So now we don't have any place to go. You make a lot of points, but I say nope. That's not it. You're gonna stop right there and to address those things.

So when they when they interact with each other. If one is for a function or a cause that the father initiates. Is there a distinction in knowledge or procedure? That one has to react to. That one does not know to have.

Do you understand what I'm saying? You're asking a multi-leveled Question. That's correct. And the problem this isn't just me talking to you. This is something I say to people and people who follow me around.

No, I'll say I don't like answering Multi-leveled questions because I can reckon answer more about this part and you'll go but what about that? You didn't answer that. Well, it did and it gets into those kind of problems.

I've done this this for decades. That's just why okay.

Let's start with this simple question. Then is Does the father?

Intellectually bring information to the son. Do you mean son as in the person of Jesus or do you mean son?

Well, no, we're talking about the path. We're not talking about question if you don't come out the flesh. Okay, we're talking about.

We're gonna talk we're done. I Said you have to let me ask the question for clarification. Then you interrupt me and you won't stop interrupting me. So you just have to understand. I don't like that. I don't put up with that.

I'm what if I say what do you buy that and you won't let me finish and you keep dominating and trying to talk over Me we're not gonna have a conversation. This isn't just me right here. This is how I operate.

This is how I say it on discord. It's how I do it inside of of a clubhouse. I've given you a lot of time and then you just get rude and start dominating or domineering I should say and I don't like that.

Okay, so. So a and sank you can't get in unless you use a mic or you use a head. I mean of either a camera or a mic. Otherwise, we can't see what you're saying. Okay? No, it's Brian it's not don't be so myopic.

Okay, Brian don't be so myopic. The default of alternate areas topics discussion. That's not it. We have great discussions. If it's all the stock of conversations. How come I'm doing this? How come I've had thousands of conversations, right?

You just don't represent the truth. You bear false witness you twist things and you're just you're making yourself look really foolish. You're not listening. You obviously have an agenda and it certainly is not to bear witness of truth.

Obviously. So NSYNC NSYNC, we don't have anything. Jackie. I can't even put you in here. Because you don't have a microphone or a camera. That's connected that it's seeing so try this. I don't know if you can hear me go up to your browser and where it has the lock.

Where it says, you know HTTPS colon call up there right mouse click on the lock. Okay, try right mouse clicking on it and then see if there's a. When the pop-ups come to open see if there's something about the camera microphone and you can activate.

Okay? Burn the Ross stop a name-calling. So I can't say he's a heretic like Jesus says you whitewash supplicators you're your father the devil. I can't do that kind of a thing. Oh, you guys are just like.

You know, you're an amateur logicians. You're not doing too well. Sorry. All right. Okay, thanks animal lover, I'll check out that another time. Yeah, it is laughable counter apologetics. It's laughable that someone would come in and I asked for clarification say please don't ask multi-leveled questions and then you start going and I try and You interrupt while I'm answering you and then you complain about me.

Are you serious? Look at yourself. Look at yourself and what it is that you do. I'm so tired. People who that all they could do is think about how great they are and old Matt couldn't answer that question.

Maybe you know I'm answering you you stop me going and then I and then I say I'm done with that after you know, and then they go. See, it's laughable. You guys are jokes. Wow, seriously. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Come on. Ah I'm glad to be the Trinitarian gymnasium. Whatever that means you to show a massive respect. Thanks, Joanne. Appreciate it. Not the truth of Trinitarian whatever that means.

Brian Craig. Anyway, hey look guys look if you want to come in for a little bit longer, okay. Here's the link again, all right. You can come into stream yard and if you want you can put some questions or comments in the text where you are.

It'll come into here might take 10 to 15 seconds and I can try and answer it. Okay? Not a problem. All right. That Caleb guy he kept misrepresenting what the Trinity was he does not know it as well as he thinks.

He may have a superficial understanding of what the doctrine is stated as but he doesn't understand how it works. That is clear. He really blew it. Come on in sync. I can't I can't get you up here because.

Because you don't have a microphone or a Camera but you can type. Okay, you guys can type. All right, so you guys can type. All right. I'm gonna look at let's see. I'm gonna look do this. I'm gonna look at the YouTube part of it.

See what's going on here? Okay, there's Jose Salinas Jose. Can you see go ahead? You got to unmute yourself, buddy. Unmute yourself. There you go. Can you hear me now? Yes.

Okay I'm sorry. Just I'm just entering to the call. I Was listening to the. So what exactly. I'm sorry. I'm just training. Can you explain what exactly was going on? What was the question from the gentleman?

What was he asking exactly about which quite which gentleman that just called and he was being rude.

Just that's wrong right now. Oh that guy. I don't know. You know, he was I don't know because I don't know if you know, but you know, I just don't put up with people who if you know. Give him one chance.

They don't tell him but you know, if they ask me a question, I'm answering it then they stop me and Then they go on with something else. No, don't ask me questions. If you don't want me to answer them.

That's what I say. So then I just go move on. Okay, that's it. So I don't remember what exactly what he's saying. No.

He's mentioning something about consciousness. It's the father the son. If I'm mistaken, I'm not sure exactly but I think what I got is if the father the son. There's the same essence. It is shares the same consciousness.

Yeah, it's something like that, but he said Intellect. Okay. Now that's a problem using the word intellect because we haven't we would have to define it. If I was discussing this with him, I'd say okay.

What do you mean by intellect? I'm not playing a game. It's like what do you mean? And so we have to be precise. Okay, what do you mean? Oh, you mean by this? Okay. Well, is that the same as this or not?

Look a lot of times people don't realize that I've been doing this so long. Down so many different avenues. I've learned to be precise and if someone's not precise I want to know what they're me. That's why I asked him and so that's I would have asked him that and he.

You know just he doesn't want to talk. So that's it. And and can you can you elaborate more? How's that. I'm a trinitarian but it's in terms of I understand there's things that we cannot you know, we kind of comprehend.

About God, of course. How would you how would you describe the consciousness of God? I understand there's a lot of man believe when it comes to like the nature of God. There's things that we can't explain as you were mentioning earlier.

Yeah. How can we explain to our non-trinitarian folks because in this case I have family members that are one it's Pentecostals. And and they get the idea that those believing in trinitarian God they get it more as a Tritheism, which is not true, right?

And the thing is that what they you know, what they charge me is, you know Try the ism because we're saying that there's three consciousness and within the same but I don't say that.

See, I don't say that. I don't say three consciousness and I don't say three intellects. I don't three say three minds. Okay, so a lot of times what they'll do Is they will say you mean this that's not what I said, and they don't realize I'm using words Specifically and what they'll do is misrepresent me.

There is a problem for us to explain how the persons of the Godhead Interact and work together. There are certain things. We just cannot explain. We just don't know. How is it that there could be three persons as one divine being?

I don't know if someone were to say to me. Well, then how do the minds interacted? I don't know they involve each other and yet there's a manifestation of distinction between them. I don't know how that works and I can say that I don't know how it works, right?

And when it comes to the mediation between the father, you know, the son and the father. When it comes to the mediation, of course here we 725 it states, right that Jesus Christ is the high priest forever for the order of my kills.

It can you explain is. I don't know how to explain this, but is it literal where Jesus actually, you know, is he? In a way interacting with the father in a sense. Yes, he is as an advocator because I know that.

That question came along with the Mike I said with my my folks my family members and they were like so you actually believe. There's two persons in other words. Yes, another person the father the president's son doing the the the intercession to the father.

As a literal I'm like, yes, of course, then if you don't have that then you just don't have a but I have no mediator.

So it's kind of a warning sign there, but but here's the thing. Okay, so they'll say persons I'll say what do you mean by person right now? They might say well, you're being ridiculous. No, I'm not because person has a definite meaning in the context of Trinitarianism.

Different than what you know your person sitting next to you in a chair, right? That's why I said tell them that I say this is important for us to have Understanding. I try and tell people that they need to be very precise in things like this and very often.

They don't want to be because the critics like to work in the areas of lack of precision. And they want to work in the areas of ambiguity and gray areas and I said no no, no, you got to be more precise.

Because a lot of times sorry a lot of very good questions, right? Seriously, I'll grant that those are good questions. But sometimes we have to say well, what do you mean by that like the son children of God?

There are different senses in which that can be understood even if you deny a physical sense you can have children of God the Generic thing from a pagan philosophy that Paul the Apostle is using simply to witness.

Well, what's he mean by that term? It's not exactly the same way that they were using it. But he's playing not fast and footloose with the terms. But he's using what they have an understanding trying to get into the truth now.

We can see and see good and so that's one issue. But then there's the issue of adoption in a legal sense and then there's the issue of federal headship. And these guys and I'm not trying to brag. I'm just saying I know these differences, but they don't.

And so that's why I have to say well, what do you mean by that? And then oh, you're so stupid you could. They don't even know that about these things. I'm trying to help them. Okay. Let's get to what instinct was trying so let's go over to instinct really fast because he'd been trying for a long time.

The Rise of Unitarian Theology and the Spirit of Antichrist

Hey, I think man. How you doing, buddy? Hey Matt. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you good. Oh great. I.

Just kind of had a general question. Sure, I'm actually down here in Birmingham, Alabama, so it's kind of late for me and put my baby to sleep. But I was just curious to hear your thoughts on the rise of this non-trinitarian Unitarian theology.

I feel like I'm almost 34 years old and I remember When I was in high school this kind of started to hit a bump, but I feel like this is something that's kind of Exploded if you will. Yep over the past Couple of years and just kind of hear your thoughts on maybe why?

Actually have some you know close family friends who Their children or their grandchildren have been kind of caught up in this and just kind of wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

I'll be willing to do a dialogue with them and answer questions. But yes, I've noticed it too. Unitarians are on the rise the one this is on the rise and this is part of the apostasy. That's prophesied by by Paul the Apostle in 2nd Thessalonians 2 it's going to be the rise of the Antichrist.

What they are functionally doing is promoting atheism. Now, they don't realize that now they're gonna say no. They believe in God and atheists deny God's existence. But Paul the Apostle makes I could find it but he makes the hint that though they're denying the true living God.

They're functionally atheists because they're not believing in the one true God who is Trinitarian. So what's happening is the devil is working well among the Unitarians and the oneness of Monarchists in order to present a false God and the false God always leads to a false gospel.

And so this is what's happening. Excuse me. This is what's happening and yes, I've noticed it and I'm working hard to try and refute it, but It's like pushing a rock uphill because there are so many people who refuse to see and if I could just work with them Then I could show them to themselves the inconsistency of their position and what inconsistencies mean your position is not true.

But they don't want to do that. Just like Caleb could not see and refuse to see the inconsistency because he's blind. You know when I showed him for example, you know, they were seeing. Who were they seeing in the Old Testament God the Father.

Well, Jesus says it wasn't God the Father. He was stumped then he tried to come up with something instead of just submitting to what it says. What. There's seven persons. Okay, that's one of the stuff we use for the Trinity.

No instead of that he has to go in and submit the scriptures to his false doctrine because we could say such a person is not Regenerate the reason I say that we could say he's not regenerate. I'm not gonna say he is or isn't but we could say such a person is not regenerate because the Holy Spirit bears witness of truth and they're not bearing witness of truth and Jesus is the one who sends the Spirit who bears witness of truth and Jesus is the truth.

And so what they're doing is denying the truth of who God is. So that's the spirit of the Antichrist. It's the implication is they're not born again, which is why I have to tell people You continue with this you're damned.

You're going to hell. Oh, you're so judgmental. I'm informing you because too many people in my opinion just sit there and go well. It's a debate discussion. They need to know what the truth is that their doctrines are leading themselves a damnation.

I need to stop. You get to hear it. Okay. Sorry, I just got a little soapbox.

Yeah, you're right. No, I appreciate that. I have a Good friend neighbor. They actually were under Frank Barker started the PCA at Briarwood Presbyterian and they have a grandson who's kind of Gotten off.

It's a complicated story. But I've been kind of pointing them to your website to kind of not be argumentative with him because he's I mean in this he's in the school with this oneness church and all these things and But just to kind of point you Right and just kind of point him when he says these things kind of I've been talking with them just to kind of Say hey, you know, this is no what about this?

You know kind of just laying bread crumbs. So to speak of scripture and things that they can use a way to not not push him away from them From the relationship, but to be able to kind of use Scripture and things as an avenue to show him.

Hey, we're not these crazy. You know heretic kind of off the reservation I mean because that's what he thinks every time he's around them and he just Yeah, you know basically doesn't even want to get he's scared to death to go to church, you know.

What do you tell you what their house do it? Well, I got it. I gotta be going soon. We got people waiting, but I guess you could set up a discussion with them. And I'd be willing to do a phone conversation with a group of them and things like that and answer questions.

If it's interesting if you think so, you know, let me know. Okay, right. Okay. Yeah. I appreciate that. What do you think sounds a good idea? Oh.

For sure. I know that's something that I'm definitely now that he's down in his teenage years that his parents would definitely they've been reaching out and Talking to them about that. So.

That's right. Amen. All right, brother. God bless. All right, and just so that the guy in this, you know pseudonym means he's always hide behind nicknames. But we if you go to Deuteronomy 6 5 the Lord of God is one.

The word is a hide which means composite unity. That's what it means in the Hebrew. Let's get to Alex. Hey Alex. How you doing, man? Hey, Matt.

You did excellent tonight. I know it was tough. It was hard to get around the obstacles of Their I forget the word no problems or whatever it is. It's like problems inside the maze. It's just like wow.

But I appreciate your teaching we may not agree on everything which you know, that's stuff like that but Having gone to the Catholic high school. I'm not Catholic. I was a Protestant is because of sports.

They weren't somebody to lead the football team to glory. But I end up quitting football after freshman year joined water polo team because the coach was really bad. So It's interesting because they don't believe in Father Son and Holy Spirit.

They believe in Father Mary and the Holy Spirit and in Catholicism, so I think that's the way that a lot of these one is or Trinity deniers. Because I understand, you know, I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church.

It's not just their history. It's what they're doing now and You know, there's a lot of big problems with it, but they're assuming that the Trinitarian was Catholic from the beginning. Which it wasn't because it's taught by you know, the Apostles, you know Paul.

Yeah.

It's a systematic doctrine and people don't get that.

Well, yeah. Question is Do you also think because of you know, the ancient histories that have been Archaeological finds like Epic of Gilgamesh things like that where they then they get into. Oh. You see all these pagan religions had trinities as well.

But you answered that very well in the debate. You remember that. Or you said they were three persons not three.

You know as gods, right? All right. He was misrepresenting. They do it a lot, right?

Yeah, it's I pray about it a lot because until I found you know It was my fourth time reading through the Bible. I finally got to Acts and then I saw it. I'm like, wait a second. There's the Father Son and Holy Spirit right there as at Stephen's death.

It's right, you know and you can't deny it and he just totally hand-waved at these. Enough the droids are looking for it, you know and It's because it would have whatever following he has then you'd have to change changes dictation to him.

I dealt with that in school. So I'll be short. I love you. Do you have a night? Thank you, brother. God bless man.

Trinitarianism, Catholicism, and Biblical Evidence

All right. All right. That was Alec. Now. Let's go to Testa. Go for it. We'll quit after you because I got it. Do stuff and then I have to get ready for a counseling session. I got to counsel somebody.

Are you there Testa? I guess not. All right. Okay. All right, then. Yeah, Joanne they do follow to be ugly there are a lot of Antichrists. There are a lot of false teachers people who think they know but don't follow my heard.

Yes, go ahead. Wow.

Yeah, you're with Caleb and y 'all guys were discussing the logos I thought is interesting. He says the logos is something personal, but you know me and you understanding the one in the mini I would ask him where does this personal thing come from?

Is there some kind of universal that exists beyond God that you know, you wouldn't get it. You don't have. You know, you have impersonal like platonic forms that exist above God, right?

Right, we could get into that. I thought about that. But it's just he just he obviously didn't understand the Trinity very well and the ramifications of it and I got changed to a microphone here. I got a change to that microphone because this thing's beeping it's going out and I have to do this for the speaker.

So, there we go now. Turn that up. So yeah, he failed he failed in several areas and he wouldn't understand the issue. The one in the mini Transcendentals, he wouldn't understand it.

Yeah. Yeah, I think this stuff should be hashed out with people because it's very important to know that. You know without God being as you said because I saw you debate with a Jake the metaphysician.

You know without God being the Trinitarian God, there's no predication all is just one all is just the same. Yeah.

That's right. And then if you have monism, you don't have distinctions you can have truth values and then you know.

It's all kinds of problems. Absolutely. We can get into that. Yeah, I would love to contact you about this stuff. I've been want to talk to you up because I don't know where to really look on particular.

Tell you what tomorrow night I'll be on Clubhouse. I do my weekly Wednesday night Q &A thing and you can come on and ask questions. We can talk about it. Okay?

Yeah, and by the way, I just so you know, I don't want to name any names here. I am friends with somebody that prepped you for the debate for Jake the metaphysician. I'm very close friends with that guy if you remember.

I missed a couple words that what for the debate.

Do you know the debate you had with Jake the metaphysician, yeah. Yeah, I'm close. I you can't say I guess I'm close friends with them. Me and him hang out a lot talk with each other about this. No, not Jake, but the guy that prepped you for the debate if you remember his name's Matt.

No, I don't remember. Oh.

Remember, no. So many people. It's like what I'm done here. I have to go check on my wife because she has medical issues. I have to get back up here. I have to do counseling for an hour and then I'll be done around 1130 or midnight tonight.

Yeah, well, I gotta work. Yeah, and I got a Bible study Thursday.

That's what we talk about a lot. We always talk about. Do you know a face named Brant Bonserman.

That rings a bell. I tell you what, why don't you. If you want arrange a discussion where we all all of us could talk about things. I guess okay. Oh, okay. That's fun.

How do I can't do I contact you only on clubhouse or somewhere else? Well, there's info at calm org. Yeah, okay try to remember my face then cuz I don't want to send you a random email being like from random dude.

You know, do you want to set up a discussion?

If you want, but you got it, you'll have to talk to Joanne. She's pretty good about helping out. I need help. That's for sure. That's right, yeah, I have trouble remembering people. I even have a picture of my wife with her name on it.

And it says kiss her no one else. That's how bad I am.

Okay, that's great. Yeah, I love it. All right. I gotta get going guys.

I'm gonna get going and check on her and then be back on in 20 minutes for counseling. Okay.

All right. God bless you. Bye. Bye. All right. I'll talk to you guys later. God bless.