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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.
And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning and If you've got a Quran anyone anywhere near you you might want to grab it today. I've got some interesting things to share with you a little bit later on.
Do a little Quran study. Some of you might have one if you don't there it's very easy to get hold of them online if you have access to like Quran browser calm. There's the Corpus Chronicum project is online too.
So just look up Corpus Chronicum and It's a very very useful website. Use it all the time. So you might want to grab those things but first and foremost just wanted to Note in passing before we completely change gears and subjects.
What we've all said would be the result of these things Dr. Moeller was mentioning this morning. My mornings have gone back to normal and and fulfilled and happy now because it's August and the briefing is back, so if July is just just I don't know.
I just lose touch with reality because Dr. Mueller's the briefing isn't around so he was mentioning this morning some of the immediate impact as Justice Scalia predicted of the Supreme Court decisions the radical nature of the Supreme Court and the decisions that it's making and redefinition of marriage and so on and so forth.
He was making note of it and Certainly one example of that outside the United States. I had seen on August 1st, and I've seen a couple versions of this story and This one from The 1st of August says wealthy gay dad Barry drew it.
Barlow Says he and his civil partner Tony will go to court to force churches to host gay weddings. He told the Essex Chronicle that he will take legal action because listen to this folks quote now, I'm gonna I'm gonna read this in.
The voice that we should hear it in not of. You know, you know you have to provide voices when you're reading stuff, right? But this is this is the voice that we should have it in. He told the Essex Chronicle that he will take legal action because quote I am still not getting what I want and quote a a government bill legalizing gay marriage passed Parliament recently, but and I hope probably now be banned from England forever.
A government bill legalizing gay marriage passed Parliament recently. But it included measures to protect churches from being forced to perform same-sex weddings. Mr. Drew it Barlow said. The only way forward for us now is to make a challenge in the courts against the church.
Listen this it is a shame that we are forced to take Christians into a court. To get them to to get them to recognize us and quote. Wow, I mean Does he even realize how obvious that is. We're gonna make the secular courts force you To recognize us.
To celebrate us. We are going to force you to compromise. You're gonna have to deny What your Bible says what your history says what God's law says. Will force you to do it. Will force you to do it. Farm 12 -8.
The wicked strut about when that which is vile was honored amongst men. Listen to it listen to it he added quote it obsessed me because I want it so much. A Big lavish ceremony the whole works. I just don't think it's gonna happen straight away.
This is as much as people are saying. This is a good thing. I am still not getting what I want end quote. I remember hearing those words when my kids were like three four years old. But here you have an adult man a very rich adult man and yet the self-centeredness of The attitude the immaturity the childishness of it.
Shocking. Absolutely shocking. I'm gonna force you to say I'm a good person. Exactly what's going on? It's exactly what's going on. It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. The gay couple shot to fame in 1999 when they became the first British same-sex couple to be named on their children's birth certificates, okay.
Which one labored and had the child is what I want. Hmm, which one? Neither of them obviously. They entered a civil partnership in 2006 and Barry drew it Barlow as report they donated around 500 ,000 pounds.
It's a lot of money. Two groups lobbying for same-sex marriage. Last year the Church of England warned that the government's plans to redefine marriage. Could trigger legal problems and end the 500-year link between church and state.
Well for the Church of England. I'm not really sure that would be all that bad of a thing to be perfectly honest with you. That church state thing has not been going real well. For the Church of England as far as remaining Christian or anything like like that, so it might be Time in January this year a leading lawyer Cautioned that the plans left the Church of England opened a legal challenge.
The Prime Minister was sent a copy of legal opinion by Lord Kerry a former Archbishop of Canterbury in June 2012. Crispin blunt MP Who was then a justice minister minister admitted that the government's plans could lead to legal issues.
He said the government is seeking to protect indeed prescribe religious organizations from offering gay marriage, but he continued that may be problematic legally. Yeah, you think. But I Again, we're gonna we're gonna force you we are gonna make you say we're good.
Can you hear it? Can you see it? Oh My my my my my. Looking at Isaiah 5 a whole lot more these days. Woe to those who call good evil and evil good. It's right there in front of us.
I I can hear people listening to you right now saying that but that'll never happen here.
Oh, yeah, right. And because really is anyone really still that naive you know the Constitution won't allow it. But yeah the Constitution that piece of paper. It has to be interpreted by those nine people who have no connection anymore to reality.
Well.
Here's a question for him to think about in the United States when a pastor marries someone at the end of the ceremony He says by the power vested in me by who? By the state that he's. Oh wait a minute.
There's a licensing factor here. When the state comes along and says oh, you know what we're gonna yank your license and when we yank your license guess what? You don't get anymore you you don't get any of the benefits the tax deductions and all the other things that go along with being a.
Licensed minister we all know that's all disappearing very quickly anyways, and they're gonna go after that stuff. We're gonna have to we're gonna have to be. Taking trips overseas and visiting other countries to find out how they've been doing this all along in anti-christian Societies so we can learn some lessons because the.
The days the day is is right around the corner. Just real quickly I saw this one as well. I'll throw it in here since we are doing a jumbo edition today. In one of the feeds I follow is uncommon descent calm.
It's basically intelligent design discussion and things like that and. Here is a August 5th, so yesterday this was posted. Mark Armitage possibly the latest victim of the Darwinist Inquisition. What happens when you publish a peer-reviewed paper?
That states inconvenient facts against Darwinism. Better yet photos that cast doubt on prevailing paradigms. You get fired at least as what a researcher is alleging. We are very quote. We are very saddened and disturbed to report that Mark Armitage was fired from his position at California State University.
Just days after his paper was published online. They the. Interestingly enough, what was his paper about. Was it I think Moses wrote Genesis, and we should force our children to read Genesis and not it's not what he said.
Instead he's in the Department of Biology Calvary State University. Of course you're in California. It is a I Don't know how should we put it socialist dictatorship anyways? When I was over there, I even said when I was speaking in Southern, California.
Less than two weeks ago. I said, I'm at least thankful that we're a long ways away from Sacramento. So the madness does not infect us here but but. The abstract of his his paper was quite interesting.
Soft fibrillar bone tissues were obtained from a supraorbital horn of triceratops horridus. Collected at the Hell Creek Formation, Montana, USA. Soft material was present in pre and post decalcified bone.
Horn material yielded numerous small sheets of lamellar bone matrix. This matrix possessed visible microstructures consistent with lamellar bone Osteocytes. Some sheets of soft tissue had multiple layers of intact tissues with osteocyte like structures featuring filipodial like interconnections and secondary branching both oblate and stellate types of Osteocyte like cells were present in sheets of soft tissues and exhibited organelle like microstructures.
SEM analysis yielded osteocyte like cells featuring featuring filipodial extensions of 18 to 20 Millimeters in length micrometers. I'm sorry micrometers in length. Filipodial extensions were delicate and showed no evidence of any pre mineralization or crystallization artifact and therefore were interpreted to be soft.
This is the first report of sheets of soft tissues from triceratops horn bearing layers of Osteocytes and extends the range and type of dinosaur specimens known to contain non fossilized material in bone matrix.
Well, that sounds just that's gonna overthrow the entire It's gonna overthrow the entire scientific community you get fired. Well now, of course they point out maybe this isn't why he was fired, but it just happened to have happened right after this and anyone who has seen ah Certain certain films like expelled might have an idea and it's all it's all for the same reason that's it's so that people can say well all scholars say that you people are wrong and Anyways, I thought I would mention that in in passing.
Um, I Just look over in channel Carla came in. Do we remember Carla? I It's very difficult for me, I think I think she's from Canada. But that's about all I remember is I think I think that Carla is from Canada.
That's about all I know and then unfortunately mutato is is Crying or something. I'm not really sure what's what's wrong with that. Yeah, he weeps great tears. Oh I see someone went through Bismarck and did not stop to see him.
So I would like to I would like to get to meet Milo Hudson Bueller aka mutato someday. But he's starting to make it he's starting to make it sound like I'm trying to avoid him and I'm just like well You know if if a church You would invite me up.
I'd be happy to come really and I'm not difficult to you know okay, my Culinary tastes are somewhat limited. We'll probably end up at Olive Garden or Denny's or something, you know, nothing really fancy but You know, it's not my fault that there's nobody anywhere Near you Tato that seems to like me other than him.
He's the only person up there that likes me. So if we could find somebody up there that would you know, invite me up there? I'd be I'd be happy to to do so anyhow as I mentioned You might want to have your your Quran out Again I hope You know, I got a very very encouraging note really encouraging, you know, I wish I had it in front of me.
From Nick in the Ukraine, I'm gonna be seeing Nick again in February Lord willing I told you all about Nick when I was teaching in Berlin. I was gonna start today's program in German and then fake Realizing that I was speaking the wrong language, but I forgot when I got started cuz I was busy doing something else so I apologize, but When when I was in Berlin, we had a group of Ukrainian students and I had no idea that Nick was gonna do this.
No idea I just got their papers Nick had to translate their papers. So he I mean he's translate. So he was the guy that I'm sitting there and I'm teaching on textual criticism. That is not that's that's about as easy a Range of vocabulary to translate as the abstract of the biology paper.
I just read to you. Okay a lot of technical terms and He's in another room. He's off to the right there. It's a it's a room has a window so he can see in and I'm wearing a microphone so he can hear me I can sort of just barely You know just sort of hear his voice a little bit and then the Ukrainian students are wearing these headsets that they have to keep A sort of pointed toward this infrared transmitter type thing.
And everyone's well, they'd have to stop and change the batteries and stuff like that. It's a neat setup. And what it allows for is live translation. Instead of stop start stop start. It would have been impossible to to do live that kind of live translation stop start stop start just For all day long on a subject like that I would have I would have been brain-dead after two days, but anyway, so I was just incredibly impressed this young man For him to be able to be listening to me and then live translating it like they have at the UN, you know in such a technical area and Then find out Translates their papers and sends me these papers and I'm like wow.
Well Nick Nick wrote to me when he sent the papers and he said he's been listening to the dividing line ever since I was over there and that he really found my continued review of The Calvinist Colin show with Michael Brown to be extremely useful.
Because that's a big discussion over there. So I think because Nick said that I think what I need to do is I think I have it. I'm gonna have to look for it I think I have it on my on my Mac at home. I'm just gonna have to get that Video that has been making the rounds from Jerry.
He's the Armenian guy why I'm not a Calvinist that video has been sent to me but half a dozen times. And I just I just haven't bothered with it because it's just not a lot overly exciting but since it's really popular out there I'm just gonna have to we're gonna have to do some radio free Geneva's here and and respond to that and and do some more Of that because Nick said it was helpful.
So if Nick said it was helpful. We'll do some more. Looking forward to seeing all those guys again in in February in in Kiev. Wow, even even LaShawn Barber showed up in channel today. That's that's amazing.
But Carla fell asleep. That's interesting. Watching things and channels are strange. Anyways, what I was telling you what I started to tell you was I'm reading through the Quran again. I've lost track of how many times this would be but given that it's Something that is just it's part of my job I mean literally it's part of my job to have familiarity with this text and therefore constant exposure to it and stuff and Yesterday morning I was doing a 64 mile ride and Recently, it's not been all that hot here in Phoenix.
I mean the high days be like 94. Which is really unusual for us in August. I mean, it's raining right now. Well, some of you would not call this rain. I think if you lived in Seattle you would go. No.
No, that's that's no. Is there is it collecting anywhere? Is there water rain the streets? No. Okay, that's not rain. That's just a moist sky. Basically, but yeah, yeah, right well here in Phoenix what we call You know an inch of rain.
It means there's an inch between the drops. That's how we measure rain. We got an inch of rain. There is only an inch between the drops. As I'm looking outside right now, there is a small puddle forming Over out there in the in the parking lot.
There is a small puddle now there's still dry spots on the on the on the sidewalk, but there there is a Small puddle forming where the stuff's coming off the roof. No, that's not the sprinkler. No. No, this is what's coming off the roof.
This is there actually is a small puddle there. So that's that's better than nothing the little the little Starving plants are their little mouths are up toward heaven more more. Anyway, I'm wondering about a little bit here.
Mm-hmm. So I was out before dawn Yesterday morning and actually I was I was over halfway through I was on my my way back so I was descending and hence, the speeds are going up and you're starting to feel better at at 24 miles per hour than you were at 17 and.
But I'm listening and I am listening very carefully and I caught something. I I caught something and I made a strong mental note. Because sometimes I make mental notes and the sweat washes. Before I get back actually even carry I haven't bought a little teeny-tiny super light.
Well, it could actually even have on it the German most of the German Bible, but I can record stuff on it and every once in a while I will Stop and I will record something for myself so I can remember.
Okay, you need to look this up back up, whatever. Oh great the fake Dawkins on Twitter says I guess he wants me to jump into the whole brouhaha about the strange fire conference and my daughter does to my daughter wants me to cover the the whole gifts thing and all that kind of stuff and I'm just like I'll tell you what.
When it's when it actually happens. And I get a chance. I think I could probably talk Phil Johnson into a freebie set of recordings. Or access to the mp3s or whatever and I can you know Throw it on the iPod and actually listen to what people said then maybe but I just I just sort of get the feeling that that all this pre stuff and The the chatter going back and forth especially between Michael Brown and and any number of bloggers.
I'm just sort of like shouldn't we have the conference first? See what's said before everybody starts piling on and arguing about stuff. I mean Certainly on on some things like some of the just wild-eyed Radically wrong stuff.
That's just so clearly obvious. I mean obviously I would I would love to have a discussion with Michael sometime about his role in the Brownsville revival. Because I've watched some videos of that and I'm just how how do you defend that?
How do you not see that that is? Miles and miles and miles away from anything even Remotely like what we have in New Testament Christianity. But I want to I want to hear what the speakers have to say.
I want to hear what kind of criticisms a level and I just get the real feeling that. There's more communication it may not be overly friendly at the moment, but there's more communication with Michael Brown and More reform folks because of our debate people listen to that the other debate that he did after that on Long Island and because they've heard him and I Debating Unitarians and it's like wow that guy's really great on these areas.
But then they're like all these other areas. Wow you know and I just have a feeling there's more of this pre-conference chatter because of that so I think when is that conference is that in? September I think it is somebody in channel will probably tell me eventually I think it's I think it's in in in September I'm looking forward to hearing it.
I'm not gonna be there but I'm looking forward to getting the recordings fairly quickly and We'll certainly try To listen to them that's gonna be if it's later in September right before I head for London in South Africa well, I can't guarantee much there, but Well there's a there's a link lady Smith in Channel put that up, so I click on it.
Oh October 16th or 18th, so we've got two months. This will be actually after I get back from From South Africa actually so yeah, we'll definitely we'll definitely take a look at it and So that's interesting I I'll be interested in see what's that, but anyhow, so we'll get to that.
But I'd like to do so once we have something to discuss the specific assertions that are being That are being made anyhow as I said I Was out and I I caught something and I only heard it once I remember exactly where I was on I think it's called Norterra Parkway up there if I recall correctly but I Made a mental note, and I said you know I really need to check that out and then last evening I had the opportunity and it really was very very Exciting for me anyways to Get to sit down once again with my Arabic tutor.
It has been a long long time and one of the things that I did is that I really want to Look at Some of these texts and ask you some questions to make sure that my looking at the text is appropriate. So what I want to do is I want to look at some text in the Quran I'll read them for if you don't have one obviously But I want to sort of make an argument, and I know some of you.
I know some of you Calvinists Have even slipped and said yeah, I really enjoy the program up until you start talking about Islam And then I just sort of you know wander off. Especially today, maybe not so much.
Well. Yeah, I think this this discussion is really important. I'd encourage you to stick with me and Even when I move on to Bashir Vania's comments, I would really recommend you stick with me because a number of the issues that he raises is an opening statement today are very very common arguments against the inspiration of the New Testament and While at times we have to deal with very specifically Islamic slants to things Sometimes what we're talking about is applicable to a much wider Range of application so Be disciplined Be strong.
Stick with me here. I Think you'll find it to be to be useful Here is what I heard I Think right now. I think by the end of the ride. I was through I was into surah 24 But this was in surah 18 ayah 27 surah 18 ayah 27 and This is a now.
I'm what I'm listening to right now right now is the abdul haleem Translation the reason I'm listening to it is Because Shabir Ali has chosen to use that as his default translation in the book that we are working on and So I thought well, that'd be a good one I've listened to read through Yusuf Ali and Sahih International and and some of these others Maududi etc.
But let's do this one this time and as long as I can get it in PDF format or something like that then it's fairly easy to create an audio version and Here was the the ayah that just somehow caught my attention and Turretin fan already knows what what it is and Recite o Muhammad what has been revealed to you of the book of your Lord?
There is no changer of his words and Never will you find in other than him a refuge? Now The phrase that caught my attention obviously it was there is no changer of his words. Now if you look at other translations they will not be as Literal as this and they'll say things like none can change his words or something like that, but the translation Use this sort of awkward phraseology that communicated to me that what we're looking at here is a Participle in the original language very similar to what we would have in Romans chapter 1.
Where I'm sorry Romans chapter 3 when it says there is no God seeker Bukha eggs a tone Tom Theon there is no There is none seeking after God. It's it's a Participle that is being used as a substantive.
There is no God seeker and here it's there there is no word changer there is no changer of his words and so as I said, I met with my my Arabic tutor and got caught up and had a lot to talk about because he's Syrian and his family's Syrian and Things are a mess in Syria and most of us over here are not getting much of meaningful act meaningfully accurate information about What's going on in Syria, but some and he it was it was rather Sobering for me for him to say it's gonna take 10 years 10 years to resolve this it'll be another decade and I'm like wow and it could end up being three different countries, too.
Which is amazing, but anyhow. But we finally had the opportunity of clearing the food off the table and looking at at the Quran and so I brought this text up and and we looked at it fairly carefully and This participle phrase there is no changer of his words is accurately translated here.
So a number of you have been asking me by the way, and I think they probably write in and ask you too rich. What are the best? Apps or programs for studying the Quran on my Mac. I have a program called zekir zekir is about The only thing I've found For the Quran the online website I mentioned earlier the corpus quranicum project is probably the best thing I've found there very very useful.
But the single best app I've found anywhere. It's not like I've done an exhaustive search or something, but I've probably run across most of them. It's for my iPad and it's not available on my Mac. If I want the the best app for studying the Quran, it's it's on my iPad.
I've actually got to use my pen and it's called my Quran. It's called my Quran and so what I did is I used you can you can highlight any word and then Ask for its root and then it'll give you an exhaustive Concordance of All the places where that root is used in the Quran now I have That huge Massive concordance paper concordance, which is what I used earlier now I don't have to use that because I have it all in in my Quran very very very very useful.
And so I I looked at this this root. Because I asked my tutor, you know, what does it mean to change alter, you know. And he would say he says yeah, like, you know tarifa nas the the actual changing altering of the text itself.
And so I looked and that particular Participial form is used two other times in the Quran and so I went looking for them and The first is surah 6 34. Surah 6 34 and Notice the consistency here. Here is surah 6 34 and certainly were messengers denied before you but they were patient over the effects of denial and they were harmed until our victory came to them and none can alter the words of Allah and There has certainly come to you some information about the previous messengers.
Well exact same Assertion and None can alter the words of Allah surah 6 34 and The last reference of the three so you've got 18 27 6 34 is also in surah 6 and it's surah 6 1 15. Surah 6 1 15 and the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and injustice.
None can alter his words and he is the hearing the knowing. So whenever this root is used in the Quran it is used of the exact same context and That is no one can alter the words of Allah. Can't be done now modern Muslims.
For I believe reasons outside of the text of the Quran. Modern Muslims will Interpret this very narrowly and They will interpret it as only in reference to the Quran itself. The question I have is is that a teaching of the Quran is that a teaching the Quran is is the Quran saying?
Well only only The the Quran cannot be changed because obviously The vast majority of Muslims today believe that the the Bible has been corrupted that the Torah has been incorrupted has been corrupted the Injil has been corrupted and Why do they believe that they believe that because they have have looked so carefully at what the Quran and the hadith says.
No. No. That's not why for example. I also had had noted this on an earlier ride. It had really stuck with me and I wanted to make reference to it and that's why I'm bringing it in here. Listen to this in surah 3 Ayah 3 he has sent down upon you o Muhammad the book in truth confirming what was before it and he revealed the Torah and the gospel before as guidance for the people and He revealed the Quran.
Indeed those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment and Allah is exalted in might the owner of retribution now notice the terminology that is Utilized here, and it doesn't necessarily come real clearly in this translation, but when you actually look at the at the Arabic, it's a little bit clearer and He has sent down upon you to send down upon you the book in truth so the term is nuts all to send down and So here the Quran the book in truth is sent down to Muhammad and It confirms what was before it the same language.
It's used in surah 5. Where Jesus comes he confirms what was before him. Muhammad comes he confirms what was before him. It's this chain again of Torah in Jill Quran. This is this is really problematic for my Muslim friends and As soon as he says he sent down the book in truth confirming What was before it then it says and he revealed the Torah and the gospel.
But I checked the Arabic the roots the same root sent down. He sent down the Torah and the gospel before as guidance for the people. This is just one of many many texts in the Quran where the Torah and the Injil are said to have been sent down they contain light and guidance the very same language of inspiration that's being claimed for the Quran is Ascribed to the Torah and the Injil so if you're just reading the Quran What would force you to think That if there's no changer of the words of Allah What would force you to think that that means the words of Torah and the words of the Injil have been changed.
Because they've been that's all they've been sent down and if there is no changer of the words of Allah And these are the words of Allah they contain light and guidance. They're sent down by Allah, then how can they be changed?
How can they be changed? That's the question. Now I've mentioned before There's two streams of thought. Pretty much from the beginning. I I think I could probably argue successfully that one is earlier than the other but they're both fairly primitive.
Two streams of thought within Islam and only since the late 1800s has one stream pretty much predominated the other two streams of thought tarif al-mana and tarif al-nas that is One stream asserts that what has been altered or changed in The Torah and the Injil is the Interpretation not the words because there is none who can change the words of Allah.
But what's been changed and distorted? Is is the meaning and so for example there is a reference I'll have in front of me. I'd have to look it up. It's somewhere Before 24 because I heard it recently where it talks about hiding things and Accuses the Jews of of hiding certain portions.
That means they possessed it, but they're hiding it. They don't want you to know about it and of course the famous story of when Muhammad inquired about what was in the Torah and and The Jewish person put his hand over the portion.
They didn't want to read and then Muhammad says move your hand read that and that's the portion about stoning and so on so forth. There's a famous story told about about that's found in the Hadith and historical sources and so you have a Long stream of Islamic thought and scholars who Have taken very seriously this assertion that there's none that can change Allah's words and The Torah and the Injil are the are God's words and therefore it's the interpretation.
But today the vast majority of Muslims vast majority of Muslims. Primarily because of a book I've mentioned to you before it's our al-haq a book written in India in the late 1800s. Which is basically a really really really really bad compilation of Every kind of liberal argument against the Bible you could ever find primarily drawn from German criticism without the slightest bit slightest bit of fairness balance or scholarship but it continues to influence large numbers of Islamic apologists to this day Despite its being really really bad on so many levels.
Anyhow since it's our al-haq the vast majority of Of Muslims Even if they don't know why believe that the Bible has been altered that the Tarif the changing the corruption has to do with the very words and We've heard that how many times in this program.
We'll we'll hear it again today listening to Bashir Vania obviously, he would believe in the utter corruption of the text of of the Bible. Now one of the primary texts that they utilize and if we could queue up a break it to a quarter till you got it Ready to go.
Okay. One of the primary texts that they will refer to and I I should have brought the book in here. I apologize I do Refer to it in my book. So, let me see if very very quickly I can just happen to Scan through it here Fast enough.
My bibliography is a little bit too long to do that. Very very quickly. Oh Did he did he did he there it is? Excellent book not cheap. It's a Brill book. Sorry, but Gordon Nichols book narratives of tampering in the earliest commentaries on the Quran from Brill from 2011.
Excellent work. Very very important. I would love to see in fact, I know that my Muslim friends are listening I hope Yusuf Ismail and Bashir Vania and and Abdullah Al-Andalusi and and my other friends will will listen into this program.
I would love to see a Really scholarly fair interaction With Nichols work from the Islamic side. I really really would I Would challenge you all to do that I think you would I think you would have to grow by doing so I would really very much challenge y 'all to look at excellent material in there where he goes through all of the passages where corruption could possibly be mentioned and uses some of the earliest Tafsir literature to To flesh out what the early Muslims thought about this.
Well the one text it's pretty much in all the lists Is Surah 279. Surah 279 and this is actually going to fit in with Bashir Vania when we get to him because he's going to make a similar allegation based upon Jeremiah and so we have to look at that.
So it's a really good a sort of dovetail here and. But in Surah 2 Here is the the text from Surah 279 woe then To those who write out the scriptures with their own hands and then in order to make a trifling gain claim.
This is from Allah. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they thus earn and so the common interpretation of this is that see People were writing scriptures and they're just writing their own words and saying this is from God.
And that's where you get your Torah. That's where you get your Old Testament. That's where you get your New Testament from us from these people who are writing out scriptures their own hands. Now is that what the text says?
Well I would just refer you to the preceding context. Starting Just a few verses earlier and when they meet those who believe in Muhammad. They say we to believe in him, but in their intimate meetings.
They say to one other how foolish why should you? Intimate to them what Allah has revealed to you for they will use it as an argument against you before your Lord. Are they unaware that Allah knows all that they hide and all that they disclose.
And then here's the meeting immediately preceding ayah. Among them are also the unlettered folk. Ignorant folk who do not know about the scriptures, but cherish baseless Wishes and merely follow their conjectures.
Woe then to those who write out the scriptures their own hands. Now if you want to say That you cannot follow a context in the Quran from one verse to the next then you can put a wall Between ayah 78 and 79 if you want to.
I mean if you really want to say that you know the Quran is just so badly written That you can't follow a context anyway. But if you do allow for context. Then on what? Textual ground. Not somebody who lived 200 years later who said he knew something about him.
On what textual ground Do you argue? That Those who write out the scriptures their own hands has nothing to do With the unlettered folk who do not know about the scriptures in the preceding verse. What's the textual ground?
I know that Muslims assume the meaning of 279 but are you aware of. The other Interpretations of 279 found in the early Tafsir literature. And for those of you who've not Listen to me talk about Islam to any depth before Tafsir is the commentary the commentary writing on the Quran.
So we would we would talk about biblical commentaries. Tafsir literature is commentary on the Quran ancient or modern. But obviously some of the earliest Tafsir literature is extremely important. Ibn Kathir is one of the primary ones but there are others that even come before Ibn Kathir that are extremely important because it It's it's similar to our references to the early church fathers.
Obviously how the earliest people interpreted texts is something that is of at least great interest to historians but also a great interest to understanding the development of materials over time and so I would just simply challenge the the simplistic citation of 279 and one that one of the debates I think that would be good to develop down the road Would be on this subject now.
Sam Shamoon and Shabir Ali touched on this in their debate from a number of years ago. But I think a fair and I mean fair I don't I'm I don't mean Ignoring everything that everyone has ever commented about the Quran type Perspective, but I think a fair Interpretation of the Quran and the earliest literature Could substantiate the assertion that the Quran itself does not teach the corruption of the New Testament.
Now, of course, the problem is the underlying question that I know I will never get anyone to debate because I because it's not actually a point of Islamic dogma or belief. But the underlying question I'll never get anybody to debate is did the author of the Quran have a clue what was in the New Testament a clue about was in the New Testament because you see the Muslims gonna say it doesn't matter because Muhammad's understanding of Anything is irrelevant because the Quran is simply the words of Allah.
But the fact the matter is my assertion is the author of the Quran did not have any Firsthand or even meaningful secondhand information about the actual content and teaching in the New Testament. I I Think guys and let me speak directly to my Muslim friends guys I I think you even those of you who are not fair in your reviewing of me have to admit that I extend Great effort to try to be fair in my analysis of your beliefs.
I But you have to you have to admit that and so what I'm telling you is as I have sought to accurately and Fairly interact with the text of the Quran. I Have come to the conclusion That the author did not know what is in the New Testament.
Didn't know had no knowledge now you say well God wrote it. Well, God knows what's in the New Testament and he knew what was in the New Testament in 632 He knew what the Injil was and It's just painfully clear on two accounts.
Not only is there no meaningful interaction with the actual message of the New Testament itself Only with what person would hear, you know, second third fourth hand. But even more than that, and this is very very important there is no discernment on the part of the Author of the Quran as to what is and what is not in the New Testament based upon the citations he gives in other words Since the Arabic infancy gospel is cited since the infant's gospel Thomas is cited since these sources are cited and attributed to the Christian people as something that they believe and These things are not a part of the New Testament.
It's very clear that the author is drawing from oral sources and Simply doesn't know much about those even those oral sources and my submission to you gentlemen is the reason that Islam has developed the accusation of the corruption of the text of the Bible is it because The author of the Quran did not know it therefore contradicted it and only by Anachronistically taking something written 600 years after the completion of the canon of the scriptures of the Old and New Testament as Ultimate authority.
Can you come up with the idea that well this stuff must have just been changed. Because you well know that the author of the Quran believes he's speaking in accordance with the truth of the Torah and the Angeal.
The problem is you can't find a Torah and the Angeal that actually substantiates Quranic teachings. Because the author of the book you think is absolutely infallible and from God didn't understand them didn't understand them and That's a major issue.
Well, anyways, we're gonna go back to listening to Bashir Vanya, but we're gonna take a quick break first. Let my voice rest and we'll be right back.
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So that was what was playing before then or something. Yeah, Rich is claiming that the control devices are becoming inhabited by Spirits or something in the other room and doing things. They're not supposed to be doing it.
You know, I you know when I ran sound at a large Baptist Church I tried those those excuses too, and they really didn't work all that well, but anyway We will just move on from there we need to press on one of the reasons I'm doing the lengthier DL's.
As most of you can tell I am very very focused upon London and South Africa and let me once again point you to the the need for Funding for that trip. It's a long long ways and we want to be able to Very very costly and we need to be start booking those flights pretty soon and So if you'd like to help us Right now we're talking about debates with at least three individuals in South Africa including Shabir Ali.
We may even end up doing a discussion about the subject of our book. But I'm talking with Bashir Vania and Yusuf Ismail. Yusuf and I are having a good useful exchange going back and forth. I Want to start with a debate because he likes doing long opening statements minimum 40 minutes.
Okay, then here's you know what I want to do and Well first I want to get to reviewing as quickly as possible I may finish Bashir's stuff and then instead of doing his rebuttal and something that go directly into a debate that Yusuf Ismail did with David Seacombe and it's about I think it's about a 40 minute opening statements minimum 30.
I think it's 40 and Most of the material. Well, almost the entire presentation was either on textual critical issues or on synoptic issues. There were a few Canon issues and then for some reason Yusuf Ismail thinks there is value in the parallelomania arguments that the atheists use all the time and I've written to him I said You need to read Ronald Nash's book you really need to realize that this stuff was debunked a long time ago.
It's only out there because the internet has rehabilitated it. You do not want in a debate against me to try to Rehabilitate Mithraism or Apollonius or any of the rest of these things been there done that got the t-shirt.
You know don't don't don't don't even go to there but anyways what I've been presenting is Obviously my hope and the prayers of I really want to thank the folks down in South Africa, especially gentlemen a Rudolph as Soon as we made contact down there, man.
They just took off. They just started Scheduling stuff and going here going there making arrangements. I mean it takes a lot of work. There's a lot of effort involved and I'm just extremely thankful for all the work that's already been done to make this happen.
But as they've said they've had to turn down about 80 of the requests. They've been given for my time there I could spend much more time there that I'm gonna be able to spend and as it is we're talking about half a dozen debates we're talking about almost debating every single day and Certainly speaking every single day multiple times.
I mean, please pray not only for the For the funding of the trip, but my health is the biggest biggest thing I have you know in the back of my mind is we are scheduling so much that if I have any health issues at all, it's it's gonna be and you know when you sit in a enclosed Steel tube with numerous other people.
Well, it's not steel Aluminum tube with news other people were hours and hours and hours on end. You're exposed to everything out of the Sun.
We'll just send you in with a nosh mask. Well, whatever.
You know, you're talking to 12 ,000 mile journey to get there in 12 ,000 miles back so Anyways, I'm talking with you to this amount. I'm saying look we want to we are really praying that this will be the first of a number of trips to South Africa I certainly would like to do that.
There's certainly a desire and interest there and so let's do this in a logical order and And Obviously you have raised issues of textual criticism you in your debate with Mike Laicona, you know. You made the argument that we can't trust the New Testament documents say because they are not trustworthy documents.
They contradict each other. They've been changed. They've been altered. That's that's part and parcel of your apologetics so let's start with the textual critical issues and Then move from there to Synoptic issues alleged contradictions historical issues canon issues if you want to try to Raise, you know issues about Gnostic Gospels or something be happy to talk about stuff like the Gospel of Thomas or something like that.
You know, but let's be very focused. Let's invest enough time to go into depth to be able to demonstrate my assertion that these allegations Just simply don't hold any water and my my desire For the debate with use of his mail is to contrast the methodology of the presentation and Preservation of the text of New Testament versus that of the Quran in other words the same thing that again if we could get era to do the right thing and Give us the videotapes that we are do the unedited masters of my debates without non Rashid from last year.
Which they agreed to do at the time of the debate and they just need to do the right thing do the honest thing. Do the thing with integrity get us those videotapes as soon as possible. Stop stop playing around and just get it done.
Then you could watch where I'm not and Rashid and I did the same thing but in two debates and that is one debate I defended the the Free transmission of the text of the New Testament free in the sense of not control.
There was no authority that Oversaw it. There's no government promoting it. Versus the controlled transmission the text of the Quran the othmanic revision, etc, etc. I think this is vitally important.
I think this is exactly what needs to be discussed. And that's what I've suggested to to use of his mail so that's I want to get into that and we're in the middle of some material where Bashir Vania is raising those issues as well and So, I think that this is again important stuff and Obviously, I will be talking therefore about textual critical issues that are going to be relevant to your dealing with atheists and all sorts of folks because unfortunately many of my Muslim friends are just drawing their argumentation from the net anyways, and So it's the same type of stuff.
So it would be very helpful to you, I think To to listen carefully. That's what we have. So let's go back to Bashir Vania only for half an hour, but at least I've said it all up here and.
What he has to say. The ascension of Jesus not there mark 16 verse 19. The famous verses.
Okay, the ascension of Jesus Mark 16 9 through 20 is a major text of variant. We are all aware of it. It comes later. The fact there are multiple endings to mark shows that later Generations felt that there needed to be a An ending that's found in Mark or the front of Matthew and Luke.
Well known there notes in every any Bible that's worth its salt has some type of a notation at that point and again, the contrast between the fact that you can't find a Quran that has those kind of notes.
Well, okay. I'll take that back. You sort of can. There are some Arabic Quran's but they're almost all limited to translational not translational to Version differences in the Arabic not to manuscripts.
So I didn't need to be careful about that. There are some I have one that primarily has notes in regards to differences in Not the manuscripts but in the various versions of the Quran so there there are some of them that are out there.
But anyways the Ascension clearly noted in the other Gospels and certainly in Acts so.
How is that an argument? The famous verses of the woman caught in the act of adultery and Jesus forgiving her. That's called the Percocet adultery John 7 53 3 8 11 John chapter 8. Not there the famous verse of evangelism.
Okay, not there. What do you mean not there. Well in the earliest manuscripts not there. So is it really an argument against the integrity of the New Testament that we are able to determine these things if you see I Understand if you're not familiar with how ancient documents are transmitted.
If you have an ancient document that you believe in well a medieval document that you believe in and You you don't do Critical study of it on the same level. I can understand why the critical study of the New Testament would bother you.
But the reality is you want to know what was originally written and you want to know what the history the text is. And if There's been expansions to the text over time and the only reason that you know that John 7 53 through 8 11 appears first in a Greek manuscript in Codex Bess a Canterbury Jensis in the 5th century and Therefore comes much much later than the time of John it is not in any of the earlier manuscripts of John.
The reason that you know, this is because we Christians are open about it. But if you don't have critical editions of your text, how would you know if that were the case in your own Quran? How would you know it in?
Light of the control transmission of the text and the burning of manuscripts by Uthman and The command that other versions other than his be destroyed etc, etc.
The famous verse of evangelism Jesus telling his disciples go out into the world and make disciples of all nations.
Mark 16 verse 15 not there, but it is in Matthew 28 19 to 20 again. Made two references now to the same textual variant mark 16 9 through 20. Yes. We know that mark 16 9 to 20 is a textual variant but The very same commandment in Matthew 28 19 to 20, that's not a variant.
There are a lot of people who try to get rid of it for you know, a lot of all sorts of fanciful theories, but. It's it's there.
John chapter 7 verse 8. They've inserted the word yet. Why. Jesus is caught out in a white lie in inverted commas. Now this one you you.
Really need to be aware of because we we've certainly covered it enough times in the past. But it's not just I do notice that it is Sort of common amongst Muslims to use this but it's also common for many other people to Utilize this kind of information and you need to all of us.
I you say oh, we'll just leave that to you. No, no, no, no. The day has come and has passed When you my friend you housewife you college student you high school student you junior high student You need to know these things you need to have it right there in on the tip of your tongue.
This is what we are called to be if we are going to be salt and light in this very dark time and in this evil generation. John chapter 7 verse 8 Go up to the feast yourselves. I do not go up to this feast because my time has not yet fully come.
Now What is the issue. Well in some manuscripts the Term is an inserted I Do not yet Go up to this feast. It is the term upo and It is a rather early Very very early reading and in fact just simply on a on a Textual basis it actually has The stronger reading I mean you really really really could Argue very strongly when p7 p66 and p75 contain it along with Vaticanus.
I'm I'm actually surprised that's not the main textual reading because it has by far the strongest attestation and it would Seem to me that when you have two words both of which start with omicron oops alone.
Well, okay, I take that take that back the the one reading would be ego oak on a bino I am not going up Under this feast and the other was eggo upo on a bino oak and upo look a lot alike and I Think you can make a a really Strong argument here, but anyway Let's let's take the the reading.
I am NOT going up and Notice that the Bashir says well this words been removed. No, it's just It's just a translation of the Greek one. Either you're translating. I am NOT going up or you're translating I am NOT yet that the yet is From upo.
It's just two different Greek words. It's this a translational issue in the in the English That we translate upo is not yet Actually, it's just one word in the Greek that we're talking about. Anyhow, here's the point Why why even raise this issue?
Well Because the assertion that he just made is is that Jesus lied he calls it a little white lie and That prophets are allowed white lies. But here I actually stopped it too early. Listen to the whole statement.
They've inserted the word yet. Why?
Jesus is caught out in a white lie in inverted commas. He tells his disciples. He is not going to a meeting and then he goes. Ascribed is obviously embarrassed by this and he inserts the word yet to change the so-called lie into the into a truth.
No problem with a prophet telling a white lie. However, you know if he is God. If it is God then, you know. We have a serious problem there because numbers 23 was 19 tells us God is not a man and God does not lie.
Okay, so there's there's the whole argument if Jesus because of John 7 Jesus does go up to the feast and. So if he simply said I am NOT going up to the feast then he was lying and he can't be got. There's there's the argument.
So, how do you respond to that? Well aside from the textual information. Where you can I think very fairly defend? The Assertion that is I am NOT yet, but let's say it's I'm not was Jesus lying. No. Now would a later scribe know that?
Probably not for a simple reason. To go up to a feast is not merely the statement that I am going to go from point A to point B to go up to the feast was to join the caravans of pilgrims. Which included basically a sort of a festival attitude the singing of the Ascension hymns.
At certain points along the way it was. It was a religious activity in and of itself to say I am going up to the feast is not like my saying I am I'm going to prior, Oklahoma in a few weeks because I am going to prior, Oklahoma in a few weeks if you happen to be in that area and Speaking of two different churches there in prior, Oklahoma.
When I'm saying that all I'm talking about is getting to the airport and doing the fly to Denver transfer. Walk all through Denver Airport. There's nothing religiously significant about my Once again going to my second home called Sky Harbor International Airport.
But there was something religiously significant about saying about talking about going up to the feast notice how it's always up to Jerusalem even if you're above Jerusalem is still going up to Jerusalem and If you've ever looked this altar there are the the psalms of ascent you may have wondered what that is.
They are the psalms of ascent they are the psalms interesting when you're ascending to Jerusalem. So what Jesus is saying is I'm not going up to the feast. I'm not joining the pilgrim caravan and why would he not well for the obvious reason that he would tremendously disrupt that and It would sort of be like what eventually does happen when he has the triumphal entry, but his hour has not yet come.
It's not time for that. So he goes up secretly not in the sense of joining the caravans singing the hymns, etc, etc. He goes up to the feast, but he does not do it in the religious. So when he says I am NOT going up, that's what that's what it's talking about.
So if you take either one, you know the the argument being that well uke makes more sense in The sense that once we understand what going up involved that's probably why the committee took that. But either way John's point is clear.
Jesus was not going to be joining that Caravan that would be stopping at certain places. Maybe he took a faster route. Would have had to have because if you say I'm on the same route as the pilgrims they would have seen him and and it would have caused the same issues, but This is a common common allegation.
So you need to know That the reading that it's not Some scribe just put in a word yet. There's there's only there's only two letters difference between uke and upo. So it's not like putting a word in or Taking a word out the difference in the variant is Between uke and upo.
They both have the very same first two letters. It's just the last letter is different In uke and then the last two letters in upo so and the not yet has a very very strong Textual basis to it as well.
It's not like oh, it's just you know, some later manuscripts actually the earliest manuscripts have have that reading but no matter which way you read it once you understand what it means to go up to the feast and then what Jesus does and and how he eventually comes to the feast and and So on and so forth then it makes perfect sense and you need to be able to I think give that kind of Kind of response, but once again this this kind of very simple assertion.
Knowing what the text is allows you to give a proper response to it.
So these additions are quite serious and one needs to think about it very carefully and.
Notice we've there's no. That's not even an addition. It's a it's a variant but So far, we've seen nothing that a we're not familiar with and B. That scholarship would be very united in regards to meaning of the text interpretation of the text and the fact that for example There is no question at all That either uke or upo is the original.
We have the originals. They have not disappeared. They have not disappeared. The original readings are there. Nothing has been presented so far by basheer Vanya. That would even begin to question the assertion that we contain all the original readings even in these variant texts.
I.
Spoke about the Old Testament apocrypha. Let's talk about the New Testament apocrypha. Have you a book entitled the lost books of the Bible? It contains the gospel of Thomas Mary the gospel according to Hebrews the gospel of Judas and so forth now again.
You will we've even had years ago we had Mormons out at the Easter pageant that would be carrying that book around the lost books of the Bible one of the most poorly titled books That has ever been put out there.
It is not that they were ever a part of Scripture. Ever should have been a part of Scripture. None of the books that Bashir just quoted have any meaningful claim to apostolic origin to first century origin and most of them are Thoroughly contradictory to a Christian worldview and I might add a Muslim worldview.
Very few have been the Muslim Apologists with whom I've had interaction who have actually read any of those books any of those books and hence would have any basis upon which to comment concerning the Gnosticism in the gospel of Thomas or in these other works.
Gnosticism is thoroughly contradictory to Islamic thought. I Mean do they really want to side with people who identified the God of the Old Testament Which they would identify as a law as a demi-urge as an evil God.
No, of course not. But Again it just seems like it's a matter of convenience to utilize these sources without really knowing what they're actually about and Whether there is any meaningful reason to argue that they should have been a part of.
And certainly I guess given that The Quran quotes from some some books that do have some Gnostic tinges to them. Maybe that's the connection in their mind I I don't know.
What is important about that? Well both churches Catholics and Protestants reject these books. These books were in circulation in the early churches.
What do you mean in the early churches? Do you mean you mean in the first century? No second century well a Couple of those books have second century dates to them. I mean the gospel of Thomas. Generally is probably around 160 165.
I mean only the people are trying to sell books push it earlier than that. You know trying to get published or get tenure or something along those lines but They are when you say they circulated in the churches.
None of those that were just mentioned were ever considered canned scripture by anyone that I'm aware of. I mean the only books that anyone ever noted, you know, the Shepherd of Hermas and and a Few of those you can find some minority references to but certainly not these wild-eyed Gospels and things like that that are so plainly and clearly minimally second third and fourth century productions.
To say they were circulating in churches as if they're you know, they were being preached from on a regular basis someplace.
That's what. How would anyone substantiate them? Why do they reject it? Well, they tell us firstly, you know, there are contradictions in it.
Actually the reason to reject The books that were noted earlier is because they're non apostolic. They are not first century. They are written by people other than those that are claimed. I mean the Gospel of Thomas has nothing to do with Thomas and I think every single scholar on the planet admits that They have nothing to do with that.
They clearly do not come from a Jewish worldview at all and So, yeah, obviously they're contradictory to all of the biblical books because They come from a worldview that presents some of them anyways the idea of a of a God that creates matter who is evil.
That's not biblical. That's certainly not even from an Islamic perspective any type of biblical idea or consistent with an Islamic worldview and so they're to be rejected because they're late and Because they have a completely different worldview not just because they contain internal contradictions or are externally contradictory to the Old Testament books.
Or to even the New Testament books.
But on that basis I can argue that there are contradictions in the current Bible. For example, the book of Matthew Judas We are told Takes the proverbial thirty pieces of silver throws it in the temple in remorse commit suicide.
In the book of Acts We are told Judas keeps the money buys a farm and dies in a farming incident. So a Contradiction no reason to reject it.
Again it's it's unfortunate that You you take these lists, you know, it's reminding me of my days my my early days shortly after. Well, actually I might have still been in seminary now think about it.
Yeah, yeah, it was actually when I was still in seminary interacting with Dennis McKinsey of biblical errancy. Who just ransacked the text of the Bible looking for any kind of alleged contradiction and now this one's that were common ones but It's just simply assumed.
Well, there's there's no way to harmonize What is found in in the Gospels with Acts even though of course Luke is writing Acts, but anyways. And and even though for some reason Matthew and Luke are just slavishly following Mark and they're just barring for another and editing one another once you come to this all of a sudden we forget all about that.
And and go a different direction, but all of that aside you the idea is well if there are any differences Between the recording of any event in the synoptic Gospels. That is a contradiction. The assumption being that if the Gospels are true, they would simply be verbatim repetitions of each other.
And hence irrelevant and let me guarantee you if Matthew Mark and Luke were Verbatim repetitions of each other the argument would be well Obviously there's collusion here. And obviously therefore these can't be meaningful historical witnesses because obviously they're just copies of each other.
So the level of fairness is is is a question but My main problem not to wander off into the length of discussion that we've had in the past concerning that particular Alleged contradiction is that it's a Bashir doesn't not seem to understand when we say that these books are contradictory.
We're not talking about something like well these books say that The cock crowed three times and these books say it's one and so there no. That's that's not the kind of country we're talking about. We're talking about a different God here.
We're talking about on the level of saying The Doctrine and Covenants is of the Mormon Church is contradictory to the Bible. Now the Doctrine and Covenants comes long after the Bible. So how can it be contradictory to it because it claims to present a God who is utterly unlike the guy of the Bible.
It presents a God who is a man Who who progressed to become a God and and a plurality of gods and and all the rest this kind of stuff. So the when we say that these books are contradictory to the Bible we're not talking about on some Alleged factual level of recording some historical event.
We're talking about the difference between Historic Jewish and Christian monotheism where you have one God who's a creator of the heavens and the earth which the Muslims happen to agree with and the Gnostic God who is Too spiritual and good to create evil matter and therefore has these emanations that come out from him called eons together where they all form the play Roma and eventually you get down to a demi-urge a Divine being that is far enough removed from the all-spiritual God that while he still has the power to create he can become evil.
And then that's how you therefore create the the physical world. That's the kind of contradiction we're talking about. That's a very different level of contradiction.
They tell us they are impossible events. Well, Joshua chapter 10 verse 12 We are told that the Sun stood still in the heavens the heavenly body stopped rotating and nobody in history seems to have noticed.
Well, no one in history seems to have noticed the moon splitting either, but is that a problem with the Quran and. And exactly how many historical narratives do we have from the days of Joshua? I mean worldwide.
Not very many at all. So nobody seems to. I'm sorry that doesn't seem to me. I guess his idea was that well these books contain Weird stories and so is the Bible. Well, okay, obviously a supernaturalist is not going to reject The later Gnostic gospel simply because they posit a supernatural worldview but let's be a little bit more specific as to the Events narrated and why we would say that they would be inconsistent with a Christian worldview.
For example Some of the Gnostic Gospels talking about how the the divine Christ leaves the human Jesus on the cross and laughs as he cries out why have you forsaken me and that kind of silliness all based upon a dualistic worldview, which is completely unbiblical and The Muslim would have to agree that that is a.
Improper worldview as well and they tell us that well, these are biased booklets from different perspectives. But as you've just heard one can say the same about the current Gospels as well. No, I don't think so at all.
So the question I have to the Christian panel is do they accept that some of the Towards of Jesus may have found their way into these so-called apocryphal Gospels or are these.
Apocryphal Gospels simply a whole lot of nonsense. They are a whole lot of nonsense. There is absolutely no reason to think that any of the true words of Jesus would be Contained in 2nd century writings written from a worldview other than that which prevailed in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus.
None.
Let's go again again into the heart of the Quran. Chapter 80 verse 11 verse 15 the Quran tells us this Quran is a magic message of instruction It is written by the hands of scribes honorable pious and just.
Internal evidence Quran says was this Quran was written during the lifetime of the Prophet peace be upon him and the scribes are described as honorable pious and just.
Well, that's interesting. Especially because the evidence is rather strong that the Quran did not exist as a Single Compiled book at that point in time at all and There's just too much in the Hadith that would with that would contradict that kind of a that kind of a concept and It's interesting.
Let me let me go back here. Just just one second here.
Chapter 80 verse 11 verse 15 the Quran tells us this Quran is a magic message of instruction. It is written by the hands of scribes honorable pious and just. Internal evidence Quran says was this Quran was written during the lifetime of the Prophet.
Oh, hold on just a second there. Let me let's Let's read this.
Surah 80 ayah 11. No, indeed. These verses are a reminder. So whoever wills may remember it. It is recorded in honored sheets exalted and purified. Carried by the hands of messenger angels. Noble and dutiful.
Hmm. That sounds a lot different than the rendering he gave. I'm gonna have to Look and see if I can identify what translation he was utilizing because this reads very differently. Very differently indeed.
I mean about as close as you can get is. So whoever wills may remember it. And then ayah 13 says in honored sheets exalted and purified carried by the hands of messenger angels. That doesn't sound like the human writing down of the Quran.
That sounds like the angelic mediation from the angel Jabril. Not. Because he he had his rendering said something about scribes. So that's I'm gonna have to Make a much closer examination of that particular assertion based upon that text.
See see we got there. Oh Listen, it's music. I didn't get to the part. I wanted to get to there was a really neat section right next where he's. He goes the Apostle Paul and tries to say Paul was saying he wasn't inspired.
That's what we're gonna get to start with next time because it is a very common Islamic error to utilize that text. We will show you how it is an error as we continue on. Thanks for listening to the buying line today.
We'll see you next time. God bless.
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