Baptism Debate Debrief @ Twelve 5 Church!

Well, welcome and thank you for joining us today. This podcast is a ministry of 12 Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas, where we seek to gather and equip believers for every good work.

My name is Nathan Hargrave. I serve as the preaching elder here at 12 Five, and I'm joined by my co -host,

Jonesboro native and my fellow elder here, Jeremiah Nortier. Well, hello, welcome.

This is kind of our first video podcast thing that we're doing, right? I think this is it.

All right. Well, before we jump in, I know you're a Jonesboro boy. You are born and raised.

I don't think you've left the area, right? I've left a handful of times, but I mean, this is home, home for me.

This is home. All right. Well, then I got a question for you, because most of our people that are going to be chiming in, this is

Jonesboro people, right? This is Northeast Arkansas. What is your favorite memory from growing up in Jonesboro?

That's a hard question. So I'm glad you actually gave me some time to think about this, because I love going to Craighead Park and some of the things that my parents would take me.

Rollerblading was a big one. Going to Galactic Hurricane. People that have lived in Jonesboro for a long time, those were some fun memories there.

But one of my favorite, funny memories that I will never forget, Nathan, is basketball was a big part of my life.

So we were playing in the NEA tournament against Jonesboro. We're Westside, so this was a huge basketball game.

And Hunter Mickelson had the green light. He was basically the only one that could dunk a basketball. And I'm like,

I've got to put on a show for 4 ,000 people here. So I had a fast break, and I missed a wide open dunk in front of 4 ,000 people.

And coach snatched me out of the game. Pride coming before the fall. Yes. Oh, yeah. And he chewed me for three straight minutes.

I just remember thinking, oh, I'm so glad I got a break. And when he was done, he was like, get back in there and quit being selfish.

Oh, my goodness. That's funny. So I'll never forget that. But something else that I'll never forget with playing basketball for Westside was after every game that we won, my whole basketball team would make a circle around me, and I would start dancing.

Okay? Okay. That was just a thing that we did. I'm going to have you start doing that here at church, right? Okay? You shouldn't have said that.

You shouldn't have told me that. Well, what is even funnier about it is I would have a lot of friends from other schools that come watch us play ball, and it was understood.

My friends would join in the zoo crew with me, and we would dance. That's funny. That was just a package deal. Okay. We're going to have to try and search for a video of this.

I'm sure there is. Yes. I'm sure there is. That's hilarious. Okay. Okay. So your favorite

Jonesboro memories are basketball. They're surrounded around basketball. That was kind of your thing, wasn't it? Basketball.

Believe it or not, baseball. I did track. I did tennis a lot with my brother and my mom. It was just sports all the time for me.

That is the opposite of me because I have about zero athletic ability whatsoever.

I've seen you shoot a basketball before. Exactly. So you know exactly what I'm saying. The problem with it was

I'm highly competitive also, and so no athleticism combined with not wanting to lose is a bad combo.

My whole concept was if I avoided playing the sport, no one didn't know that I wasn't really good.

So maybe in their minds, they're thinking, maybe he's good, right? That was my pride.

Good fun memories though. I've really loved Jonesboro. Oh, man. Yeah. It's changed a whole lot over the 20 ...

I'll be 30 in May, so it's all downhill from here,

I feel like. Oh, my goodness. Don't say that. But Jonesboro's changed a whole lot, but it's my home and I love it.

I've been blessed to be able to stay here, to be able to work here and serve in ministry here as well. Yeah. That's awesome.

I love that you got so many roots here. I lived here as a kid.

Dad preached Philadelphia Baptist Church just north of town here back in the 80s when I was young, and we didn't move away from here until I was about 11.

So I have deep roots also, just I didn't end up growing up here like you did and staying.

So you grew up more in Florida, right? Yeah. So around 11, that's kind of a pivotal age.

We were down in Florida, and man, I tell you what, that was a totally different culture. Sure. Well, what were some of your favorite memories in Florida growing up?

In Florida? Oh, my goodness. Now you caught me off guard. I don't know that I have a ton of favorite memories from Florida.

I can tell you favorite memories from Jonesboro though as a kid. I can tell you that. So since we lived up just north of town, so you had to go down Main Street to get back to the house.

And every once in a while, we'd come to town. It was like as if we lived far out of town. We thought we lived in the country. But you'd have to go through Main Street.

So on the way back, you're coming. Right before the railroad tracks, there used to be a building where that parking lot is right now.

You know where Cregan's is on the corner? There's a parking lot next to it. Well, that used to be a building. I don't know if it was still there when you were younger or not.

But that building, I don't know what it originally was, but when I was a kid, was the

Army Navy store. And dude, every time we came to town, man, that was my whole agenda.

I was trying to get mom to stop at the Army Navy store because I'd have a couple bucks with me, you know?

And they sold these, you remember the Chinese, like the ninja throwing stars?

You know what I'm talking about? So they'd sell those. I mean, they were worthless. They weren't really sharp or anything. They wouldn't even stick into the drywall.

But I thought they were amazing. This is a lethal weapon that I'm purchasing as a child, right? And so I would go in there and buy those.

That was like the highlight of my, I still remember that, growing up, what a big deal it was.

I can still smell the store. I miss it. I wish the building was still there. Yeah. I don't think I ever went there. If anybody remembers what that building was before the

Army Navy store, I would be interested. Put it in the comments. If you remember that spot, the parking lot right before the railroad tracks on Main Street.

That's pretty cool. Yeah. I loved it. That was a long time ago. Johnsboro's changed. I'm not saying you're old, Nathan. I was fixing to say.

You just said that you're getting ready to turn 30 and that that's like, what'd you say?

It's all downhill. All downhill from there. Oh my goodness. Shout out to my friend

Cameron Vogel saying, because he just turned 30. Ah, happy birthday, Cameron. Yeah, that's right. You went over there to Memphis.

Are they in Memphis or they're in Mississippi, right? Yeah. Okay. So, hey Cameron, happy birthday, man. Wish I could join you guys.

Wait, I think it's today. Oh, the birthday's today. Well then, hey. Perfect. Happy birthday, man. I don't know if he has to tell me.

We had an early surprise birthday party, but yeah, we're just, I texted him and we're just trying to stay, we're just trying to survive at this point now that we've reached 30.

Oh my goodness. Dude. Yeah, you got a long ways to go after that one.

Oh, well. We will see. If I could feel like I felt at 30, I would be a happy man and I'm not even old.

So, I'm only, what? I'm 44. I'm not even old. You're the same age as Trey Fisher, I've learned.

Oh, Trey, yeah. That's right. That's right. All right, man. So, let's jump into this.

I know this is what everybody came to hear. They didn't come to hear about our childhood, right? But we just want to let everybody know how much we love this community and why we wanted to plant a church here and minister to the people here because we love,

I mean, you obviously, you have deeper roots than myself, but we both have a passion for people here in this community and we love the community.

But we're here to talk about the debate from back in February 11th at ASU.

Tell us a little bit about who it was that you were debating. Well, I had a blast for one.

I feel like it was just a huge blessing and how it came about was interesting. So it all started about a year and a half ago.

There was a church member, I don't think she'd mind me saying, Ms. Brenda. She showed me a newspaper article about an article in the paper that was being written by a

Church of Christ preacher, and it was pretty much bashing phrases that we hold near and dear from church history like sola fide, faith alone, solus

Christus, Christ alone, and soli deo gloria, to alter the glory of God alone, and it had all these, the solas, the five solas of the

Protestant Reformation. And Aaron Dodson was just saying how we're not saved by faith alone, right?

Because it includes repentance, it includes a list of other things, and I'm like, you know, that is a common misunderstanding of what that term means.

I remember Ms. Brenda was like, hey, you should maybe reach out to this guy, and I was like, that's a great idea. And because, hey,

I can reach out to somebody, and with a heart of kindness and love, just talked about these things.

So I reached out to Aaron, and we had two really good conversations, and, you know, conversations get a little heated sometimes, but we would always kind of remind each other, hey, it's all good, you know?

And so this is how it all started, and I remember asking Aaron a question, and his answer really surprised me, just, and I think it'd be good to kind of let everybody know, we started defining the word faith, and we started defining the word works.

And, you know, my heart is to, you know, I love the English, but the original language was what is inspired, so when we read a word in English that's wonderful and great, we gotta ask, what does that word mean?

We don't look to 21st century dictionaries, we look to the Greek word and lexical uses of that word.

So I'm explaining the word ergon for works, meaning what we do, what we accomplish, it's really getting at human exertion, so it's ergon, this is where we get the

English word energy from, this is the etymology of that. So I'm defining works as anything that we accomplish by human hands and we exert energy, right?

When we perform a ceremonial action, that is a work. So he was quick to tell me that he's like, well, that's just your definition of works.

And I'm like, honestly, I'm trying to understand the Greek word ergon. He says, well, it's easy to build a doctrine when you make up your own definitions, and I'm like,

I agree with you. That's not what I'm trying to do. So I asked him, what is your definition of the word works?

And he told me, I don't have a definition of the word works, I just obey the gospel. The gospel is simple, and I just believe it.

And I said, I think it's simple too, but what's your definition of this word that's used in Scripture? And he said,

I'm not going to fall for your trap. He goes, I'm smarter than that, I don't have to define that word, and I thought.

Like you're trying to trap him. I'm not trying to trap him. I'm trying to say, you're a preacher, you get up in the pulpit, you don't just say it says what it says, you explain the meaning.

That's what teachers do. But we talked about a lot of things that we're going to get into, hopefully, here in a little bit.

And so a few weeks went by, and I thought it was interesting. He didn't want to, because he asked me if I'd be interested in debate, and I thought he meant with himself.

And I was like, absolutely, yes, I want to do this. Not out of meanness, but to talk about the truth, and we see that there was debate going on in Scripture, and we see that faithful men and saints have debated in church history, like this is just a means that God has used over time.

But he had a friend that he wanted me to debate with, and I was kind of like, that's fine. And so Aaron was actually really kind and invited me to his church on like a

Thursday or something. I got to meet him in person, and he was real kind. I met his friend, who's no longer in Jonesboro.

And so he actually, we were going to set up a debate, but I don't know if he got promoted or he took another job. I think this man,

Tony Brewer, is in Canada now. So it just kind of fell through. So this wasn't Brock. This was another guy.

This was another guy. And so it just kind of fizzled out, and it was kind of like, hey, it's okay.

You know, it just didn't happen because he moved away. And so I've been blessed to meet

Marlon Wilson at The Gospel Truth. And I remember finding his

YouTube channel and him hosting debates, and I'm just like, this is awesome. He gets some big names on there.

They talk about all these different biblical topics. And sure enough, I just, since I didn't have the debate here in Jonesboro with Tony Brewer, I actually sent that to Marlon Wilson saying, hey, here's a good debate topic

I'd like to see a Baptist and Church Christ debate about baptism. And Marlon messaged me back really fast, to my surprise, and he was like, hey,

I'll definitely remember that. By the way, would you like to debate a Mormon? And so I did that, and I got to do,

I think, about three debates on Marlon's channel. And so you got a year and a half later, and I was actually at G3.

In Atlanta, right? In Atlanta. Had a blast. And Aaron reached out to me. He said, hey, I have a friend in Harrisburg that's looking to debate somebody on water baptism.

Would you be interested? And I remember so fast saying, absolutely. I want to do this. And I had no idea who Brock was, but I remember

I really wanted to do this. And so from there, got to know Brock and Aaron.

We all would go out to eat. We'd talk about things, super nice, super cordial. But something we all share is a zeal to understand

God's word. And so we all, I think we had a mutual respect about that.

And so I don't know if you want to chime in, but that's kind of how it all kind of started building up. I started, through Aaron, that's how

I met Brock. Met Brock. Okay. And so Brock wanted to debate somebody in Baptist circles on baptism.

Yes. So tell us a little bit about how did it go from a baptism debate to such an odd proposition?

And what was the proposition again? The New Testament teaches that the liberty from the penalty of past sins is at the point of an external act of, oh, it keeps going, right?

Yeah. It's like very wordy. What did Trey Fisher call it? A word salad? Yeah, that's right.

I was like, Trey's got jokes, by the way. I love that man. Yes, Trey does. Hey, a shout out to, what is their

YouTube channel? The Parish? Redeemer? Is it their church's YouTube channel or is it his podcast?

His podcast, I think. Maybe we should have done a little research on our buddy Trey before we jumped into this. But hey, Trey, hopefully you're watching, brother.

So there was a buildup to that. And this is actually really interesting. So I'm sitting down at Panera with Brock and Aaron, and the original proposition was like the

New Testament teaches that water baptism is for, in parentheses, in order to obtain the remission of sins.

That was originally the one we were going to do two debates and the second one was going to be on faith alone and I'd be the affirmative rather than the negative.

And over time we realized, let's just do one. Let's see how this goes. And then maybe now they're glad they just did one.

I mean, I'm just saying like, you want to do one? I don't think they want anything to do with us anymore. Well, you know, I just look at it as I trust

God with it all. And if one day they do want to do something, I'm sure we can work something out.

We'll just see. I'm just saying, I thoroughly was blessed and enjoyed everything beginning from him.

So you know, there was talks about doing two debates, making it multiple nights. And that was the first one on water baptism.

This is what happened. I get a little bit more background with Brock and he's telling me that he's going to a lot of the

Baptist churches, Baptist laying churches in town, basically saying, hey, I want to do a debate on baptism.

And a lot of the churches, you know, would kind of go, oh, well, that's a work. And then Brock would brightly bring up Romans 10 saying, well, isn't confessing with the mouth of work?

And then a lot of pastors not knowing how to engage at that point. Well, I've been studying these things for a long time, just by the grace of God.

And I've grown up in Jonesboro where there's a lot of Church of Christ. So I mean, I've literally set tables like this with multiple elders from Church of Christ talking about all these issues.

So Brock told me, he's like, you think differently and talk differently and teach differently than a very typical

Baptist individual. And I was just like, there's reasons for all of that. For one, I've been blessed by just being familiar with a lot of these issues.

And so I explained how I would negate the proposition to him, because he asked me and I just said, it's works for these reasons.

And I think from then on, he was thinking, we probably need to debate something else of nuance or difference, right?

To not be just so pointed at water baptism, because I was ready to go to all eight verses or so of the proof texts that they typically go to.

I'm familiar with all those verses in the context in which they exist in. So I noticed the more

I talked to him about it, the more he wanted to debate something different. Different. Yeah. And I could see that change happening, because you guys were meeting quite a bit in preparation for this.

We met a number of times, and then you met with us one time. One time. That was interesting. That was kind of weird, wasn't it?

It was, because when you came, it just seems like their demeanor changed. And even after you left and we talked, it was different.

Maybe I smelt. Maybe. Smelt. Is that a word? Smelt? I smelt. No, I smelled,

I guess. But it was interesting, because I love these individuals, but there was a lot of times

I would just notice the things we talk about, demeanor change to me and you together.

So it's hard for me to put my finger on it all the time, and a lot of those times I just don't look too deep into that,

I guess. Well, I'll say the debate, from my perspective, has been unbelievably fruitful.

We've gotten some pushback from both sides as to why we're debating. And I'll talk about that here in just a moment, but me and you can attest just how fruitful.

The word of God never returns void. It always does the work that it sets out to do. And so we've just tried to be faithful, and I was overwhelmed with gratitude with how you carried yourself and graciousness and how prepared you were.

I was up there just goofing around, just because I had to be up there, right? As I said on Trey's podcast,

I felt like the guy in the corner of the boxing ring that would bring out the towel and the water for you in between, but I enjoyed doing that.

But the whole thing, I believe, that God is working through it. God works through everything, but He's using these means, and our prayer going into it for both of us was a diligent prayer that the gospel, the true gospel of Jesus Christ would go forth.

I mean, that was the whole purpose in this. This was a gospel -centric, evangelistic approach of dealing with the truth.

So I know that both of us have had many interactions with people that have traditionally or even currently hold the

Church of Christ doctrine. So do you want to share maybe one or two or any of those interactions?

I actually want to begin with one interaction. I say one interaction, but the first of just Brock Kendall himself.

Because I was told by a lot of people, the advice is don't talk so much to your interlocutor before the debate, because strategically they're going to be making notes, better understand your position, and all those things.

But just like you said, I was looking at this not trying to step in and win an argument, not try to claim victory like I was superior in this action.

No, this is an opportunity to preach the gospel of grace. Now, within the context of what we agreed upon, absolutely.

But with Brock, it was so wonderful, Nathan, because obviously I'm praying for him. I love him more than he will ever know,

I think. And so he was asking me questions like, how do you understand repentance? How do you understand regeneration?

What is your understanding of the gospel? Great opportunities. I look at that as,

God, this is you sending someone to me to share truth in their life. Now, on the other end,

I don't know what he's doing, but I leave those things up to God. He's the one that gives the increase. So that's probably one of the biggest interactions

I had with the debate, and it's actually the man I was debating, himself, Brock Kendall.

And I just count that as a massive, tremendous blessing. And with the opportunity to have the debate,

I really wanted it to happen, so we had to be flexible a lot on things that he wanted to do, and things that I wanted to do.

And so, you mentioned earlier, you were up there with me. I'd like people to know that was one of those things that I didn't want to do that, because I thought someone up there with me would be distracting, but they were very intentional, that they wanted them to up there, and I didn't want them to cancel because of that.

Yes. And so we decided that Nathan could at least be eye candy. There you go. That's what I'm talking about. I did that well.

He actually helped. So he wasn't just a pretty face up there. Oh man. All I did was

I had Logos open so that I could keep up with where you were going. And you actually did something key in the debate, because I went back and looked, and I remember when

I said something was based on one of your suggestions, because Brock was very irritated with my opening statement.

Right. And I would like to remind Brock, we agreed to have both opening statements, not me to immediately rebut what he said.

Yes. Because in an opening statement, he's going to lay out what he thinks is important. I may think some of those things are important, along with other things of why

I disagree. Right. So that's why we decided not to have him have an opening statement and me immediately do a rebuttal.

Right. We agreed on two opening statements. Now, based on what I've heard and things like that, he was very irritated.

Well, in the debate itself, he was very irritated. He seemed a little frustrated. Yeah. And I hated that because tensions get high and you expect one thing and something else happens.

Yeah. So I hate that because it wasn't intentionally to make him mad or anything, but I was able to bring out more issues to the table than just his two verses that he wanted.

Right. So what you did, though, is right before I went up to do my rebuttal, so you got to think, he did an opening statement, then me, then he did a rebuttal, then me.

Right before I went up, you reminded me. I remember you're like, let everybody know that you were laying a foundation. Yeah.

I was defining terms. I was talking about more concepts that I knew would be important for this debate. So anyway, that was just one of those things that we, that's why we did it.

Yeah. You know. Yeah. And so after the debate, a little bit of the aftermath, but honestly, it was, all of it's been good, even for the people that were kind of negative.

We know that those things are going to happen. Right. I've had people message me that are Church of Christ that are kind of still in the shadows and I don't want to mention names.

Right. But just saying, Jeremiah, I feel like our side wasn't represented the way that we would like.

Thank you for curing yourself with kindness and gentleness and grace, because you and I, we've prayed that, man, if I got up there.

Yes. And just had this smirk on my face. Yep. You know, tried to make it all about me. Right. I mean, and it wasn't grounded in love, it'd be all for nothing.

Right. So I've just had a number of people appreciate my heart and they could see it and I'm like, praise

God, because that's Him blessing the situation, because I'm falling. And in some ways, I'm glad you're up there, because I think you being up there was encouraging and kind of reminded me what we're doing, what this is all about.

Right, yeah. So I've had that and in those same conversations with the person I'm having in mind, asking me, do you have any resources so I can better your understanding, you better understand your position on justification.

Right. And just your soteriology as a whole. Yep. And so I recommended The God Who Justifies by Dr. James White.

That's good. I also recommended The Potter's Freedom that goes into more issues. And so that's just one situation that stands out to me.

That's good. And then just one more. Some people have called, some texts, and I get a lot through social media.

Had one gentleman reach out online and tell me how much he appreciated the multiple angles that were discussed in this debate.

He said, I've watched the handful of Church Cross Baptist debates, and he said, there's nothing like this one. Right. He said, thank you so much for doing this.

And I just look at that as praise God. Amen. Because apart from his blessing,

I'm just, you know, I'm a knucklehead. Right. You know what I mean? Word. And I just want to -

I can affirm that. Yeah, well, so can my wife too, which I hope she's watching out there. I love you,

Allie. So, and I just wanted to echo the fact that there's been so much positive feedback, even the ones that are kind of mad.

I'm even trying to show them grace online too. Just saying, hey, you're entitled to your opinion. Yeah.

If you have any questions about something, feel free to ask me. Yep. But you're also welcome to express your thoughts and stuff too.

No, I'm with you. I mean, the church site, which you don't run, which I think a lot of people thought you ran it up front.

The church site is something that I run. And so we're getting private messages all the time. And it's opportunity.

These are gospel opportunities with people that I understand why they're trying to be secretive. Right. It's almost like they want us to not share their identity.

So we're going to be very cautious not to put names out there. If you've reached out to us, we're not telling anyone about this.

I understand the fear of being shunned or losing relationships and friends.

This is something you've thought and believed for so long. But man, there's people that are curious.

And I think that the gospel of grace, I think people see the freedom in it.

They see that legalism and works and all of these systems are bearing down on them.

It's a weight they can't bear. And so to hear about a gracious, faithful Savior that has done everything.

And now in light of that, we get to serve that gracious Savior. We get to go and be baptized. We get to go and be obedient to the things that God's called us to, which is what we see in Scripture.

And so I totally understand people that have reached out. And if you have questions or you feel like reaching out, please do so.

Message the church or myself or Pastor Jeremiah and reach out to us. That will be confidential.

And we will walk with you and make recommendations for resources and Scripture.

Not just one verse here and there, but chunks of Scripture in context. So I would like to say that.

And then there are people that obviously we have a lot of Baptists that are probably more

Baptists probably watching this live feed, of course, today. And I understand that.

So you, if you're listening, please be in prayer with us. You obviously don't know names.

You don't know circumstances. But our heart from the beginning of this entire process with the debate and with reaching out and dealing with the

Church of Christ in this area, our heart has been for the people. We care deeply.

We love the people that are in the Church of Christ. And we want to reach them.

And not only them, but we love our Baptist brothers and sisters and our Presbyterian brothers and sisters and all these other denominations we love.

And we want this to be a resource for them to be sharpened. And so be praying for the people that are hearing these truths.

Be praying specifically for Brock and Aaron. I mean, I've shed tears over those two men just because I long for them to come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

I long for them to repent and look to Christ alone, right? And so please, please be in prayer.

Put these people, the nameless ones, and even the ones we've named on your prayer list, because we long to reach them.

Well, we can't reach them. God has to do the work, right? We can give them all the information we want, but it's

God that has to move. It's like Jesus telling Nicodemus, the wind blows where it will, right? That's the

Holy Spirit regenerating, awakening. But I said this on social media a couple weeks back, and I think it was misunderstood.

At least I heard that some of the guys were mocking it because they didn't understand it.

So I want to clarify and I want to say it again and reaffirm it. Twelve Five Church, me,

Jeremiah, we truly believe that there are true

Christians in the church of Christ right now as we speak.

We believe there are people who have put their faith and trust in Christ alone and have been saved by the grace of our loving

Savior in spite of Church of Christ theology. I need to be clear.

They're saved in spite, and you might be one of those, and I'm praying for you right now because we want to go to the

Word of God and help you to see the truth. And the reason we want to do this, this is our heart.

This is why we want to minister to the people that are,

I would say, and I want to use my language very carefully here, that are deceived by a false gospel.

True Christians can be deceived by these things, right? Christians can be pulled away, and so what we are going after, right after the debate,

I put up a thing about you, and I referenced the church of Christ, and I added the word cult, and honestly,

I didn't mean it maliciously. It was not a malicious intent. You know, me and you, we kind of know the reference for cult, and so I put it out there not in a mean way, not in a name -calling way.

What was the word they were using, saying that we used it ad hominem? Ad hominem, attack.

Yes. And so you bring that up to say, well, if someone loses an argument, they don't have anything to say, so they start name -calling.

Right. And they say that usually gives evidence because you have nothing else to say. Right. And when we hear that, we're just like, cult means something.

Like, it has a definition. It really means you have a particular group of people, usually with a leader, that deviates from orthodoxy, deviates from the faith.

Now, the church of Christ, they don't like to be called a denomination. They don't like to acknowledge Alexander Campbell. Right. But if you look at the history, there was a deviation.

Alexander Campbell began as a Presbyterian. Yep. Right? Went to Baptist for a while, didn't he? He hopped into the

Baptist circle, and he kind of took a few things from being Presbyterian, a few things from Baptist, and he started this movement.

Yeah. And my heart breaks because that's the church of Christ's history. Yes. They can claim to be the apostolic

New Testament church and acts. Right. But Christ has been building a church for 2 ,000 years, and there's a history that we can go back and look at.

Yes. And so cult has a definition. Now, Aaron got mad. He's just like, oh, that's an earthly term.

I just try to use what the Bible says, and I just say false teachers. Right. And I'm like, I want to say,

Aaron, you believe that we are a cult. Yes. In fact, it's much deeper than that.

You believe that everyone that's not church of Christ is lost. Right. And what we're saying is we believe that true believers exist in the church of Christ denomination.

I know they wouldn't claim that, but that's what it is. Right. But it's so worse. And I listen to them,

I'm just like, man, they seem so mad. They seem so mad. They're not sharing the debate. They don't want people.

They probably want that erased from the internet. I'm sure. Yeah. And so it just breaks my heart because I know, well, obviously

I didn't even know that you posted that, but we have talked about for years how the church of Christ is a cult by definition, and we're not saying that to make people mad.

Right. It's we believe it, and so we want to share people with the truth, and maybe there are ways. And it's no different, like you said, as to the way they perceive us.

Right. It's a two -way street on this, because if we're wrong, if what we believe Scripture teaches is wrong, then we are a cult.

Exactly. No question about it. And so if the shoe fits, right? But the other day when

I posted it, I had to sit and realize, because I saw a lot of people, and I was looking at their profiles, and these aren't leaders in the church of Christ.

These are just people that go that are hurt, and so just for the sake of showing love,

I removed the word. I edited the profile. I removed the word out, because essentially the post said false gospel.

Yeah. Right? And so the word cult wasn't even needed. I shouldn't have put it in there in the first place, because I'm not attacking individuals that go to church of Christ and that are members and are part of it.

We are attacking the teachers. We're attacking the preachers and the leaders, because they're the false teachers, and we'll talk about that here in just a second.

But I want everyone to know that that was not my intent. I have great love for you, compassion, but it doesn't negate the fact of what is true, and so we removed it.

And then I'm not sure what happened to all the comments. I'm glad you brought this up, because apparently we've been accused of people calling us out, and we don't like what they say, so we just deleted our

Facebook. I tried to send you, because you hadn't seen the first comments, and there was like 20, and I'd responded to a couple, and I went to send it to you, remember, and you couldn't pull it up, and I went to go look, and it was gone.

There was a large number, like 20 -something, and I couldn't view it. But it was only from like three different people, I think, if I'm not mistaken.

If somebody has a screenshot, please send it to us, because we'll post it. We want it up there. But I don't know what happened.

I assumed that those people deleted their comments, and since we had tagged them responding that those were removed,

I don't know what happened. This is another thing that Aaron said that hurt my heart. He says, man, what deceitful people. Deleting comments like that.

And I'm just like, it's not what happened. Yeah, I was surprised that they were gone. But hey,

God had a purpose in it, right? And I trust in Him. But like I said, we're not attacking the individuals.

We're going after the preachers, we're going after the teachers, the leaders, the people that we believe Scripture teaches are a false gospel.

So I want to talk about that for one second before we jump into all the debate stuff. I want to go to Scripture, and I want us to look at a couple of things here.

I'm going to try and have them, well, I'm not even going to have them up on the screen. So you can turn, you can jot these down. Look at them.

Make sure I'm reading these properly. Galatians 1, starting in verse 6. Galatians 1.

Now we have to remember the book of Galatians. Who is Paul addressing here, right?

Who is he going after in the book of Galatians? It's the Judaizers, right? Right. The Judaizers.

What's wrong with the Judaizers? We've heard that term, but many people don't know what's wrong with them. The Judaizers are a group of people that say, yes,

Jesus. We love Jesus. He's the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the

Father except through him, right? They're proclaiming this truth about Jesus, but then they add.

They add the ceremonial things that the people of Israel were called to. They're adding circumcision.

They're adding all of these extra things and saying, and these are all biblical things, but they're saying that you must do these things in order to truly be saved.

So you see the distinction here. The Judaizers to be saved. And so Paul's writing this letter.

Chapter 1, Galatians, starting in verse 6. He says, I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to, this is a big one, a different gospel.

Let me just add too. Notice how he says, him who called you in the grace of Christ.

So people ask me, why do you keep saying the gospel grace, gospel grace? And I'm like, well, for one, that's what Paul calls it in Acts chapter 20.

And here we're getting that clue that we have been called, and those who are in Christ, it's because of grace.

Paul builds that argument elsewhere in scripture, but here you see that's the grace of Christ, and then they're turning to a different gospel.

Yes, yes. And so this is what he's addressing. Remember the Judaizers, a different gospel. In verse 7, he confirms.

He says, right, not that there is another one. And then he says, but there are some, right?

There's some people in here. There are some people trying to deceive who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

When me and you've been saying distort the gospel, I've heard a couple of them saying, what are they talking about distorting the gospel?

We're just, we're quoting Paul. We're quoting scripture. And he says they distort the gospel of Christ.

Verse 8, but even if we, he's speaking of himself, of Barnabas, the apostles, even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, he says let him be accursed, right?

That word anathema, right? Let him be accursed. A true believer can't be accursed.

A true believer can never be an anathema, right? That word is basically judging someone to hell.

And so this is what Paul says, the gospel that is contrary to the one we preach to you. So who's writing the book to Galatia, right?

Paul. So what is the gospel according to Paul? Let's look at Romans 10. Romans 10, starting in verse 9, 9 through 11.

This is as clear a breakdown of what Paul believes the gospel of Jesus Christ is.

And you've got to remember, Romans is different from Acts. Acts is a narrative. Acts gives us some stories, but Romans gives us theology.

Not that we don't get theology from Acts. We get theology from Acts, but that's not the purpose of Acts. Acts is a narrative telling us what happened.

Romans is the book to go to for salvation. Soteriology, it is the book to go to, and all theologians confirm that.

I'm not just saying that. So Romans 10, starting in verse 9, he says, Because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is

Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and then get baptized.

No, it doesn't say that. It says, you will be saved. Verse 10 says, for, and this is key, with the heart one believes.

That justification, that heart, that new heart that we see back in the Old Testament that he is going to give us.

He's going to take out a heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh. That's a heart of faith. He gives us that faith. It's not a faith that we conjure up.

It's not a work. And then the repentance, the repentant heart with that faith that comes along with it, that's not a work.

That's something God gives us, and then we express it with an outward act of repentance and faith, okay?

He says, for with the heart one believes and is justified. Now, they didn't want to talk about that word per se,

I know. That's not really a word they like to utilize. But this word just means made righteous, right?

That's the simplest form. Made righteous, justified. And he says, and with the mouth one confesses.

So what, the heart change? Now comes out of your mouth and is saved. In verse 11, for the scripture says, everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.

Notice it doesn't say everyone who believes him. It's true. Says everyone who believes in him.

So this is Paul's definition of the gospel. And anyone that distorts that is to be an anathema, okay?

So where did Paul get this gospel, right? We know Paul gets this gospel from Jesus, right?

Jesus is our ultimate authority. He is the author of this book. This is what we want to look for.

And this is where he's getting this gospel. So let's look at John chapter 11, starting in verse 25.

This is the encounter where Jesus comes to Lazarus' tomb, and he's speaking to Martha. Starting in verse 25, it says,

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, right?

Not who believes me, but and believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

And everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

Do you believe this? He asked Martha. And she said to him, yes, Lord, I believe that you are the

Christ, the son of God who is coming into the world. So Paul says that anyone who teaches anything or something other than this.

Can I add something with that? You can do it. Because Galatians 1, he's talking about if me or an angel of someone else preaches, declares to you a different gospel.

That's why we're saying it's the teachers that are held to a higher standard than the people that are under their teaching.

I'm thinking of James 3 verse 1. There's going to be a stricter judgment for teachers. The point is, let not many of you be teachers of these things because these are weighty.

The teachers. That's what Paul has in mind here. Those teachers, those Judaizers that are declaring a false gospel.

I just want to let everyone know that's kind of what Paul's getting at. It's those that are preaching another gospel.

Amen. Amen. We got our boys, Zachary Minton. Oh, no way. A few miles away from us.

He's on here. He just writes Romans 9 through 11. Fire. Hey, your beard is better than mine.

Yes. He's getting us on the beard thing. We're trying to catch up to you, Zach. Well, I'm going to bounce off of what you just said because I wanted to bring out this passage.

Because people are asking us, why are you going after the

Church of Christ? Why? Why don't you just let this lie? You do your thing. Let them do their thing.

And the reason is, is because I believe many Christians in this community in particular have lost the distinction between the

Church of Christ religion and Christianity. And they believe that they're just another denomination.

Right. It would be like Jehovah's Witness or Mormons or something like that. But they are closer to us, our neighbors.

Because I've got neighbors here that are Church of Christ. I love them. They're like the best neighbors in the world. They're super kind people, and I love them to death.

And so you can see where that distinction gets blurred. And so I wanted to bring this up, this question.

Why are you doing this? Why are you being divisive in this way? Well, I want us to look at Titus 1 -9.

Yes. Titus 1 -9, and Paul's qualification of an overseer. And that's what we're called to, right?

We are both elders, pastors. This is a qualification that we are held to.

If people are going to see Church of Christ as just another denomination, as a Christian group that thinks differently, we have a responsibility.

Because Paul says to Titus in 1 -9, he must, talking about an overseer, an elder that's qualified, he must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, right?

That gospel that Paul talked about, the gospel that he proclaimed, the gospel that he got from the other apostles and from Christ himself, okay?

That gospel, the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction and sound doctrine, okay?

The theology, the word of God. We teach it. That's what we're called to. And also, here's the kicker, to rebuke those who contradict it.

People don't like that word today, I get it. We don't like the word rebuke. We don't like to be told somebody's wrong because everything is relative, right?

Who am I to say? Who's Jeremiah to say that Brock Kendall is wrong in his perspective of justification?

Who are you to say? Well, that's exactly what Paul says, holding firm to the trustworthy word as taught.

Scripture. It's God's word. We're trying to define God's word. And we can't avoid this.

We can't avoid rebuking false teachers in this community. We can't. Because if we did, guess what?

We would be in sin. You and I would have to resign from our positions because we would be unqualified if we do not point out false teachers.

It's as simple as that. It's straightforward right there. From Paul to Titus, this is what an overseer does.

So we are bound to it because we're bound to the word of God. So to kind of just echo what you're saying, we see this modeled with Paul himself.

Not only in his letters like we're reading, but when you go back to Acts, this wonderful narrative, and we do glean principles.

How do we know which principles apply? Well, we measure that with the rest of Scripture, right? These didactic letters that the

Apostle Paul has been writing to the churches. But when you look at the Jerusalem Council, he is combating the

Judaizer heresy, right? There are some teachers saying, unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

And when people ask me why debate, it's divisive and all this, my first thought is it's biblical.

Right. It's biblical. Now I tell them, you got to have love, right? The Apostle Paul, he was the one that told us, you must speak the truth and love.

So we know that him and Bartimaeus here, after Paul and Bartimaeus had no small dissension, they debated with them.

Yes. Okay, so you got the Judaizer heresy. They love them enough to go to war for the truth.

And truth unites together. It gets me pumped. It does. Because we're reading it in God's word, right?

And so I've actually had people say, shouldn't debate. We talk about this passage right here, and they're just like, oh yeah, well that's true.

Right? And what I was going to say is later, this was the conclusion that they started getting at in light of the Judaizer heresy.

Right. They said God knows the heart, right? And they even, I guess leading up to that, I want to say, after there had been much debate,

Peter then stands up and says, brothers, you know that the early days of God made a choice among you that by the mouth of the

Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe, emphasizing belief here, and God knows the heart.

Yes. Who bore witness to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us. Now this is really important too.

And made no distinction between us and them having cleansed their hearts by faith.

So you see the Judaizer heresy. You see Paul and Barnabas warring against them, debating them.

Right. In love. And the conclusion was your faith has to be in God and his promised

Savior, Jesus Christ. Yeah. That's what cleanses your heart. That's what justifies us in this sign.

Now yeah, we do need to explain the importance of baptism, right? Yep. Those are things it's like, man, we have a good conversation because context is king.

Like when you're quoting from John earlier, I know the arguments. They try to make a big deal that this is pre -cross.

Right. Right? And it gets into more things, but this is why we have to have sound doctrine. That's why we have to look to the whole counsel of God, right?

We've got to be careful as we're handling it with precision. We don't want to divide it in such a way where it's ripped apart and ripped to shreds, right?

And it doesn't match up with itself. So you've got to be able to lovingly talk about these things.

Yes. And they're very important and it's biblical. So I'm just saying when you're reading Titus 1 -9, we see that modeled out.

Yes. In scripture. And I'll even go further. We're not wrong on this matter of justification by faith, but let's assume we are.

Let's play that game real quick. If we are, and you are right, Church of Christ stance on salvation is proper, then that passage in Titus applies to us.

Exactly. And you should be warning everyone in your flock about us. Yeah.

And we would expect nothing less. Now, our conviction is and our conscience are clear that what we're speaking is truth.

But you're letting people know our heart in the matter. Yes. We don't hate these people. Right. We're being called by scripture to do these things.

And we are going to go after their leaders. Their leaders are the ones that are culpable. They're the ones now, now the individuals, you're culpable.

If you know that justifications by faith alone and baptism didn't save you and you stay in the Church of Christ, Christian, I implore you to repent and find a

Bible believing church. I beg of you to get out of that and grab as many saints as you can on the way out.

But the teachers have a whole nother level, a whole nother level of responsibility.

Yeah. Now you said faith alone. And this is a big part of the debate because I hear people say, it doesn't save faith alone.

Right? Yeah. And that's a historical term. I tried to explain the debate and I could tell Brock did not like me talking about that.

Yeah. And what I tell people is Christ has been building his church for 2 ,000 years. There's been terminology, nomenclature that has come out of church history.

Yes. It's important. Like the Trinity, the Trinity, that word is not found in the Bible, depending on King James.

Right. It says Godhead. Right. If you read ESV, divine nature, the word Trinity is not in the Bible. That doesn't mean the

Trinity is not true. Correct. So when you look at church history, when you see a term like monotheism, that's not in the

Bible. Yeah. Monotheism means that there's one God. Right. The teaching that there's one God. Guess what? That's biblical, even though that word is not in the

Bible. So when we look at the history of faith alone, which didn't actually originate with Martin Luther, actually comes before him in ways too.

Absolutely. He is saying the faith that we have in Christ is what justifies us, apart from what we do.

Yep. Right? That's what we're getting at, a faith. If you were to have our two cups up here, and I say, let's take this cup off the table, this cup is now alone.

Right. So if you have faith and works on a table, and you take the works off, the faith is alone. Right. It's by itself.

Now the rebuttal is, well, you can have faith, but if you don't have works, faith without works is dead, right?

Right. Oh my goodness, yes, because when your faith is resting in Christ, when he's done that work in you, you now live to give him glory.

The works are now pouring out of you, but in its proper context. But because faith comes from the heart.

It's a change of heart, not an action. Right. The action comes from the change of heart. Yes, absolutely.

Yes, that's it. Now that leads me to a question that I want you to expound upon, because this is something that has been accused of from the debate, and was being brought up numerous times,

I think, in the debate, if I'm not mistaken. That we are just trying to make things complicated.

Oh my goodness. That what they wanted to do is they called, okay, what it was that Aaron called us on one of his podcasts?

You called and told me. It was a reformed theologist?

Theologist. I'm not mocking you, Aaron. It's just funny. We all slip up with words. I just thought it was hilarious, because I was like, so what part of the body does that doctor take care of, right?

Yes. I guess it's not totally wrong if we were doctors. Of theology. I actually liked it.

Theologist. You have coined a new phrase, Aaron. If you've watched this, you've coined a new phrase, and we like it, brother.

I'm going to get you a shirt that says that. The reformed theologist. But they kept saying the reformed theology is, it's not simple.

It's not a simple gospel. It's complex. And so talk about that for a moment.

For one, I did not bring up any reformed theology theologians in the debate.

I stood on Scripture and Scripture alone. Now, when he brought up a historical term, like sola fide, out of its historical context and misapplying it, because if you go back and listen, every time

I said faith alone, I said faith apart from works. Qualifying it the way that the

Apostle Paul did in Romans 3, Romans 4, and Ephesians 2. Because that's not necessary to have in the back of your mind to understand that baptism is at work and it does not save.

Yes. So I just want people to understand that what they seem to be doing, in my opinion, is poisoning the well.

Right. Trying to say it's so complicated. You have to understand all this commentary in church history.

The Bible is just simple. I think the Bible is, I think the gospel is so simple. Yeah. When you look to Jesus and trust in him alone, you are saved.

Amen. I actually believe they have a more complicated system. Right. In order to be saved.

They would actually say there's five parts in order to be saved, and then the hidden sixth is continue a holy life.

Right. And I'm like, that, that is an unbearable burden. Mm -hmm. Identical to what the

Pharisees taught. Right. Jesus saying, no, my yoke is easy. Yes. I have done it all.

Trust in me. And so when we want to talk about simple, oh my goodness, it doesn't get more simple than looking to Jesus.

Right. Trusting in him alone, not trusting in yourself and trusting in things of this world. And I think the problem is they hear us talk about this gospel of grace so much, and then they say, well,

I guess you don't have to go do anything. That's what Paul was saying in Romans six. Right. Because he is preaching a gospel of grace for the, basically the first five chapters of Romans, right?

Remember Romans five, one, that we have been justified by faith and now have peace with God. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And so he anticipates an objection. Well, I guess I can just go live it up in grace or go live up in sin because grace is going to abound.

Yep. If you've tasted the grace of God in your life, you don't want to live in sin. You've been changed.

Right. And so I think a lot of people struggle with this idea that I can't do any works to be saved.

Now they will throw out the term obedience. I want to talk about this. Works and obedience are not identical. You have to define what obedience is.

You have to define what works because they're not the same thing. Right. You can be obedient from the heart. Obedient means to be in agreement with, to submit.

And when we say be obedient from the heart, to submit from the heart, we're talking about faith. Right. Obedience does not always entail that you're getting up and doing something.

Right. That's important because they will say an obedient faith. Yes and amen. Can you give me a passage like to reference the distinction where we would see that as different?

So we would go to all the necessary terms first and foremost. Okay. There's actually a passage that's worth noting.

I think it's Hebrews 11 verse 8 because it talks about by faith Abraham obeyed.

And it goes into the context that he left the land of the Ur of Chaldeans. Yeah. Like, yes, this is so good.

By faith, which justifies a person. Yep. And that's the context flow. Hebrews 11 flows out of the last two verses of Hebrews 10 where it talks about the just shall live by faith, quoting

Habakkuk 2 .4. Right. The just shall live by faith is an Old Testament concept, meaning those by faith are justified.

And now they live to demonstrate that faith. Right. The hall of faith shows us all of those saints of old, that great cloud of witnesses that have came before us, modeling that.

Yep. So yes, someone that's obeyed from the heart by faith and is justified, they're also going to be doing obedient works that are sanctifying, that demonstrate this to the world.

Yeah. That's a verse where, yeah, obedient faith, yes, but it's faith, it's faith that's from the heart that justifies us.

And that's why, to me, the real debate that we had was understanding the terms justification and sanctification, because that's huge.

Right. They are not talking about the same things. One is judicial. Right. One is settled by our faith in Christ and what he accomplished in a legal transaction happens.

It's such a beautiful gospel. Yes. What takes place. God declaring us right and then doesn't just say, and good luck.

Yeah. He gives us his Holy Spirit. Right. And that's another huge distinction with Church of Christ I'm starting to learn is the

Holy Spirit is devoid in the life of the Christian as they know it. But what Scripture does teach us in Philippians 1, 6, he who began a good work in us, this is the work of the

Spirit in our life, he actually brings us to completion. Yeah. He indwells us, the Bible tells us. Right.

Yep. So obedient works are so important, but that's not what justifies us before.

Correct. So I'll let you chime in. There's a lot of terms and definitions that do need to be hashed out. Right. So let's kind of set the plate here.

You've already kind of touched on it, but expound upon their perspective of justification.

Yes. Because they're saying that we're misrepresenting them. They are, and what we're doing is graining their position and bringing it to its logical conclusion.

That is called a reductio ad absurdum. We're not just misrepresenting you at the outset. We're saying, no, no, we're granting that you believe in the

New Testament Scriptures. But you notice, I tried to do this in the debate, I tried to ask Brock for his understanding of Acts 2, 38.

And he said, let me give you my interpretation. And he simply read the verse. Now, I hope everyone understands that just reading a

Bible passage is not giving its interpretation. Right. Why else would we need preachers and teachers?

Absolutely. Why would we need scholars? Why would we need people that are gifted in those areas that God has called? And I want to make this point.

It's a double standard. It's a double standard what Brock was trying to accomplish. And I get that he's rallying the troops.

Right. And I get that that's probably what he says in the pulpit as he continues to explain text. Right. But in debate,

I've had so many people tell me that that was absurd. Yes. Because it is. Yeah. You don't just say the verse means what it means, because there's other things that I could, like I have it opened up here to John 3, 316.

So we're all familiar with, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I want to, looking back, I wish I could have been like, this verse says what it says. Right.

It's so clear that you have to believe and that's how you get eternal life and not perish. Right. But they would say, oh, but let's go up earlier in the context and look at verse 5 that says being born of water and spirit.

And we'd say, your standard says it says what it says. And I'm showing you, this says what it says.

And why don't you just believe it? Why are you trying to go up early in the context? Now, this is the thing. We ought to look at context. That's why

I don't approach this conversation like that, because I would say, let's go back early in the context.

Let's see what Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about and why he said what he said. Right. But a lot of people just, this is where I just praise

God, because I look back at the debate and I'm just like, man, I didn't really expose the double standard that was being used.

But everyone knew it. Yeah. Everyone understands. That was the logical conclusion. It's a logical conclusion. Right. Right.

So, I'm trying to think what you originally asked me. No, just laying out what their opinion, their view of justification would be.

So Brock did agree with the definition. Now, he started agreeing with me too much and he knew it because I was just like, what is your definition of justification?

He said, to be declared righteous. I said, from anything? And he said, elaborate. I'm like, gladly.

To be declared righteous from the penalty of sin. Right. To be justified, just as if we never sinned.

Right. And he said, sure. So, that's a proper definition. Yeah. But it's really similar to Roman Catholicism.

Now, this is interesting. I'm learning too that the Church of Christ deny original sin. So, they don't believe in what's called baptismal regeneration.

Like a change of nature happens at some point. Roman Catholicism believes that when you come out of the water, and really it's a sprinkling, then there's a baptismal changing of the nature.

Right. Church of Christ, since they deny original sin, then there doesn't need to be a change of nature. Right. So, and this isn't to misrepresent, but granting their position, what

I've concluded at the end is they believe in a baptismal justification. Right. And Brock affirmed that.

When you come out of the water, all of your past sins are forgiven. Which is why they had a problem the time that we met, and I referred to their thought process as baptismal regeneration.

They wanted to make sure that that was clear that they don't believe that. They don't. And I think that's more consistent, baptismal regeneration, because you've got clear passages that talk about when we're in Christ, we are a new creation.

Right. Right? We're a new creature. Then you have Paul explicitly talking about how through the renewing and washing and regeneration of the

Holy Spirit in Titus 3, 5. And then here in John 3. Yep. That's what Jesus is getting at with Nicodemus.

So the fact that they want to downplay to be regenerate or regeneration, it's like, man, there's so many scriptures.

Yeah. And I did get Brock to admit, because I was talking to him about Romans 8, 8, about those in the flesh cannot please

God. Right. I don't think he understood me. I'm not saying that to be mean. I don't think he understood my argument because I get that he was camping out in this two verses in Romans 6.

I'm saying those in the flesh, how can they do anything to please God like getting baptized? Because they are an unregenerate man.

Yes. That does not have the spirit. They're walking in the futility of their mind and they are at war, hostile against God.

That's the context. Yep. How can they please God like getting baptized? Yeah. I don't think he understood.

But the point, the regeneration is the key. Right. Regeneration is a biblical concept. Yes. And he did say, well, you're regenerate when you come out of the water and I'm over.

I didn't address it, but that is baptismal regeneration that they told me they rejected. Right. Right.

So there's a lot going on there. And I was very, on Trey Fisher's show,

I got to explain that there was someone at the end of the debate asking me questions on the other side. They felt my argument.

They said, how do you answer that question then? Because you believe in Romans 10, 9 about this believing from the heart.

How does that happen if you're an unbeliever? And I'm like, I'm so glad someone asked me that because I want to answer that.

And I did want to talk about James 2 and things like that. And the point is the Holy Spirit has to bring you from death to life to regenerate your heart so you see your need for Christ, that you're convicted over your sin, that you would repent and put your faith in Christ.

Right. Because you would be regenerate. Then these things would start happening as a result. It's an instantaneous miracle.

Yep. It's the Holy Spirit that initiates. It turns the lights on. That's so good. You know, that leads me to another question, and this is kind of going off topic.

But I think it can help clarify maybe how some people that are in the

Church of Christ movement view Baptists and why it's hard for them to make the distinction, because we've got this question a lot, is then how is the sinner's prayer, or how is you conjuring up faith the way

Baptists typically refer to it? How's that different? Isn't that a work? And where do you draw the line there?

I'm glad you bring this up because I do get this question. And you know what I tell them? They're right. The sinner's prayer would be a work.

Right. That's not what saves a person. Right. And literally, I get the eyes open like, I've never heard of this before.

Like, what are you, wait a second, are you really Baptist? Yeah. Yeah. I've had people outside Church of Christ even ask me that.

And I'm like, it's not a work. Yep. Not only is it not a work, it's not in Scripture. But that's another topic.

We see prayer, but it's flowing from a changed heart. Right. And so I think what's important to emphasize to everybody is that confessing with your mouth, that confession starts first at the heart.

Jesus says, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Yes. So you can't separate the mouth from the heart in the sense that, oh, you got to say the right incantation, the right step, the right formula.

We're like, no, no, no. Confessing with the mouth means that you love Christ. Yep. And it's just pouring out of you.

Right. And you will be saved. Yes. That saved is really, in the context, it's pointing to your justification. It even says, and the one who believes in his heart is justified, present tense.

Yep. That's why in the debate, I just want to throw this in there, because in my study for this, I don't know if I've ever thought of this before or just in passing, but the

Apostle Paul, when he was Saul of Tarsus, confessed Jesus as Lord. Yep. As resurrected before his baptism, and I just thought, why have

I never looked at Acts 22 in this light? Yes. Jesus of Nazareth, he said, who are you,

Lord? And he invoked the divine name, Kurios, back in Exodus chapter three, where Yahweh was talking to Moses.

Right. And I thought, because when you look at Acts 9, all it says is, who are you, Lord? That's when

I started thinking, I was like, he knows he's talking to the Lord. Right. Right, and believes it. But I thought, man, but he doesn't necessarily know it's

Jesus yet, as he's confessing it. But Acts 22, then he says,

I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting, who died. Yep, yep.

And now is resurrected. Right. And then Paul says, what must I do, Lord? Yep. He knows exactly who he's talking to.

He is saved. That's why in Galatians 1, he received the gospel, not from man, but from Jesus. And this was interesting from Brock, and I tried not to press him on too many things, because I noticed he was getting mad and frustrated.

Yeah. And what he said afterwards is, he wanted to basically quit the cross -examination. He was not going, he said this, it was not going the way that he wanted, and he wanted to stop.

Yeah. That's unfortunate. I don't blame him. That was really, really hard. A lot of the questions were being aimed towards you, and I think it, he felt like maybe it gave you more of a platform to continue to communicate.

Well, I was very intentional with discussing the debate rules, and I want to remind everybody, he had the same rules that I had.

Yeah. And had up to two minutes without interruption. When I asked him a question, he had up to two minutes.

But it seemed like he was sufficient, was just saying the Bible says what it says. Well, you know, he really, and I know we're getting off topic a little bit here, but no, it's good.

I think people are interested in this stuff. He wanted you to only reference those two verses, like you said earlier.

He wanted you to take them out of context the way he was, and only answer those two without referencing the verses before, the verses after, the context, the whole biblical narrative driving towards how we can interpret

Scripture, a basic hermeneutic. He wanted you to answer those questions, and he felt,

I think, maybe like he had a silver bullet, that's why he wanted to get away from baptism, that if I can only reference these two verses, of course, it seems like it says what you're saying it says.

Sure. But it's easily debunked by addressing the context and the verses before and after.

Can I mention a few things with the context of those two verses? Because I felt blessed in my study time, and I remember texting and calling you, like,

I have discovered, not that it's new with me, but I've, because Brock told me in our interactions, he was looking at those two verses, and I didn't ask him to tell me that.

Yeah. Just the more we talked, and I explained, he was just telling me his thoughts, and we were very cordial and kind. Yeah. He told me his argument rests on those two verses.

So I just want to mention a few things. When I first was reading those verses, and our audience can go look them up, it's

Romans chapter 6, verses 17 and 18. Right. There's a phrase that says, obedient from the heart, and that started standing out to me.

I thought, man, I want to capitalize on this, because we believe in obedient faith will manifest itself.

But obedient faith is a heart that loves Christ, and that obedient heart is faith.

And then that's the thing that justifies us before God in the early chapters of Romans. Right. So I knew I was going to talk about that.

Then the next verse, verse 19, talks about that that obedient heart leads to sanctification.

Right. And I noticed that sanctification is only mentioned two times in the whole book of Romans. There is a form sanctified,

I think, in chapter 16, but sanctification is mentioned two times, and they're both mentioned in Romans chapter 6.

That is huge. You could say the majority of Romans 6 is talking about sanctification. Right.

Not justification. There's an initial point of contact when you're justified. You're initially, positionally sanctified as well.

That's why you look to other verses like 1 Corinthians 6 .11. There's a close relationship between justification and sanctification.

The moment you're justified, you are also set apart. Right. Right. But sanctification is ongoing.

Yep. Right. Yep. So I knew I wanted to talk about sanctification, and that's probably one of the biggest positive feedback

I've gotten from a lot of people saying, you hammered that point home. Right. That it's about sanctification.

Right. And it doesn't stop there, because the proposition was that we are basically, the

New Testament teaches that there's liberty from the penalty of past sins.

Right. Well, Paul mentions a penalty in connection to a sin in Romans chapter 1.

So Paul is giving us a definition of penalty. It's judicial. Yep. It earns wages.

Right. You get what you deserve, Romans 6 .23, the wages of sin is death. So the penalty of sin, we, by faith alone in Christ, when we faith apart from works, that is what sets us free from the penalty of sins.

That's what declares us innocent, no longer guilty of that. So I knew that I would need to bring that out, because Romans 6 talks about the reign and dominion of sin.

Right. And you think about it, and this is something else I want to talk about too, because after the debate, I'm sure they get to go back and think through it.

Yeah. It's hard when you're in the moment and you haven't thought through things. But they are starting to say, well, Jeremiah says that since you're justified, then you have to be sanctified.

So you can be justified and you don't have to choose to be sanctified. And I'm like, nope, that's not what that is.

Right. There's an initial point of contact, number one, and when you're justified, you now are a slave not to sin.

Yes. So you are a slave to righteousness. Jesus in John chapter 8, He talks about whoever sins is a slave to sin.

You got that bondage. I love that illustration where you're chained to the wall, right? Yeah. You're a slave to sin.

You're in bondage to your sin. Right. But when the Son sets you free. You're free indeed. You're free indeed, and you're free to serve

Him. You are now a slave of righteousness. There is no condemnation anymore. That's what it says. It's like an ending to it.

And this is what I want to encourage people. When you're in Christ, when you're justified, you are a slave to righteousness, and you war against the reign and dominion of sin that's in this world and in your flesh.

Yes. You're not a slave to it. You war against it. Right. When you're a slave to sin, that means you love it. Yes. You're not seeking things of God.

Right. And so they're just saying you can be justified and still a slave of sin. I just thought, you know, I'm not mad at them.

Yeah. I just don't know. It's interesting how they can reference a slave to sin and still not believe in original sin.

Right. Well, and Romans 5 goes deep into how we all died an Adam, and we have been declared sinners by that act of that one man.

But by the one act, you're laughing, so I can't wait to hear what you're... Yeah, go ahead. Finish it. But there's two federal heads.

You're either an Adam. Yep. Or you're in Christ. Right. And you can be declared righteous by your faith in the second Adam. Right.

So go ahead. The better Adam. The better Adam. Your wife just said, are you saying baptism is required for salvation?

Allie, we've talked about this so many times. Dude, what's happening in your home? Are you busy with so many debates you're not able to disciple your own home?

I just want to say, I have the best wife on planet Earth. Allie is definitely my better half.

And you know what? You've heard me say that. She's actually the better 75 % of our relationship. Well, I think that's probably pretty accurate.

That's pretty accurate. I like it. Thank you, Allie. Thank you for that. Keeping me in check. I see. So I want to mention one more point before we move on from Romans 6.

I've had some time to sit on this. Now, I was studying a lot in those two verses that Brock was going to try to defend.

Now, it says to that standard of teaching, depending on which translation you read at, that form of doctrine, he thought if he could prove that that form means a visible sign, that he wins the debate.

There's something tangible. It's external, right? Yeah. And I think he's wrong. Now, I didn't want to get lost in the weeds in this.

And I had some really good advice someone gave me after they heard the proposition. And it was J .D. Martin, by the way, if he ever listens to this.

He said, let Brock confuse everybody with the proposition. Right. Be crystal clear. Yes. You tell them that this is about water baptism.

This is what it's about. And this is not what saves an individual. I was like, oh, bro. Well, he definitely did not want to go down that route.

By the way, I have to say this. Your wife just said, no, exclamation point, exclamation point.

I was responding to someone. So I misread it, Allie. That's my girl. I'm so sorry. I'm proud of you.

We're going on a hot date later. That's funny. Okay. So yeah, there's

Adam. He says, Allie was asking Travis. Sorry, I'm watching all the comments and I'm getting distracted. I can't watch the comments. I will not engage like this.

What I was saying was that he didn't want to go down that route. He did not want to define. And they kept saying, we don't need to define works.

We just have these two verses here that means that there is a work.

So I want to say this because it didn't get brought out in the debate. So he thought if he could prove that form of doctrine, that standard of teaching, means an external visible sign.

And I knew what he would do. That's the same Greek word where Jesus had scars on his hand.

Thomas went and touched. So in their mind, that's external. We win. This is the deal.

That's actually not even talking about works. Now, the reason why I went along with it is because the context is about sanctification.

Now, this is what this external form symbol is talking about. The visible teaching that God has given to his people.

That would include justification by faith apart from works. But it would also include all the works of sanctification that come after it.

So works still fit, but the symbol there that's visible and external is the teaching that God has given to the saints.

Yes. And so he thinks that it's talking about baptism. And I'm saying it actually doesn't.

I didn't want people to get lost in that. Right. Because I would give up time having to explain that instead of talking about so much more.

Because you notice another thing Brock said was, I never negated his proposition. I would like to know from him if he thinks

I attempted to. Because if he just says, well, you attempted to, then I'm saying, great, that's the whole deal. Versus you just didn't even try at all.

Because I feel like of my 10 minute rebuttal, I spent five minutes, half of it negating it, talking about all those kind of points.

You negated it at least four times. At least I counted. In my rebuttal, I just spent the second half talking, getting everybody to start thinking about the water baptism text.

Talk about Acts 2, 38, and then Mark 16, 16 with my remaining time. I think that as we've had time to really set on this, which we had hoped to do this debrief two weeks ago, right?

And then the weather, you couldn't get out of your house with the ice. But as we've thought about this and as we've looked back, it's really struck me that the fact that we are on two different stratospheres, right?

I know that this is philosophical in nature a little bit here. But I think the reason that they don't believe you answered is because I think they're blind.

They're dead in their trespasses and sins, right? And I don't think they can understand true salvation as to how you laid it out, as to why you negated his proposition.

And you negated it numerous times, and everyone who was a believer in there saw it, right? And so I think that that's really what it boils down to, is because they're not able to see it.

And you did an excellent job at addressing the context of those two verses.

And we could probably, if you would like to, we can do more. I can pull it up on the screen, and you can lay it out again.

That's up to you. Maybe we'll do another video on that. But you negated it at the debate, and they can't see that.

And the reason is, is they only can see from their worldview. They can only see from their context.

And again, they're blind. They're dead in their trespasses and sins, and they're not able to see.

And so I encourage you, Brock and Aaron and anyone else that felt like you were involved in that, we are praying for you.

And we are praying that God would illuminate your mind and heart to the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And we long for that day. Hey man, can you imagine the day that we get a call?

I honestly think there's a bit of an intellectual part of Brock. I've been watching him. I think he knows there's something more to what we're saying.

And I don't know, maybe he's masking it, maybe not. Maybe I'm just reading into something.

But I really like Brock. I do too. And I love Aaron. I can tell he is really upset.

Yeah, Aaron was a little more visibly upset. But I like both of them. I really, I genuinely like you guys.

But it seemed to me that Brock was really, it was almost, especially in y 'all's conversations before, almost like some things were like, okay, he's making some sense here, and our system isn't quite landing.

So I pray maybe the Holy Spirit's working on him, and maybe he'll see it. But unless the Holy Spirit works on him, he can't see it.

He's incapable. I know Aaron has to know they need to think deeper on some things.

Because when you outright say, I don't have to define works, he said that on his own. Oh my goodness. Because you know, as a teacher, you have to define words.

Words have meaning. We don't get to make them up like he told me a long time ago. But when he just starts,

I really think he'll probably take those videos down because other people will be like, you can't say that. Because one of his last podcasts, he just says,

I don't have to fall into your trap and define works. It's not a trap. I'm asking you, how do you account for the same things that I'm looking at?

I'm not trying to trap anybody. I'm just trying to have the conversation. Like you said, though, I mean, unless God begins that good work.

I guess you can only understand it if you're a Reformed theologist. Hey, Allie. Allie makes t -shirts.

So I really want a t -shirt. I want one. I want one for sure. That's funny. Okay, so we've kind of answered some of these questions that we were thinking through in preparation.

What's so hard and complex about trying to work for your own salvation and keep your salvation?

Right? Because they believe that you can lose it, right? Right. Okay. So that, to me, is far more complex than anything we've represented.

And it's hard. It's hard to work your way to God and to work to keep yourself.

And in principle, that's identical with all false religions of the entire world.

Yes. I almost, in the debate, in my closing, and I had someone tell me, by the way, they're just like, in your closing statements, there was such a vast difference between how

Barack was reminding everyone that I didn't do what I was supposed to do and let the record show that and was a roommate.

And then I get up there and say, hey, I love you. Yeah. Right? Right. And I just want to end with a few thoughts. That light is shining, man.

That love is coming out. And all I can tell people is I truly love them. Right. And the people that were there, even though I was getting mean mugs.

Yeah. And I kind of expect some of that, but it'll throw you off in the moment, right? Well, they were a little upset.

They accused us of calling names when we said the cult thing. We've talked about that. Somebody told me that they said that I was manipulative.

I think that's interesting. I would be curious to know some specifics there.

I think it was the whole taking cult, like, leaving it up and then taking it down. I don't know.

Gotcha. Maybe it's something else. That is so, that's so strange. Because their whole point with that is, oh, that's so deceptive. And then they take all these comments down.

It's like, we feel for the people that are in the Church of Christ denomination. Exactly.

100%. But we are calling the false doctrine into question. There's so much involved.

When I talk to some of these people, that there is a weight and a burden on them to be perfect all the time, because you can lose that salvation.

Man, the grace and gospel of Jesus Christ, what did

John write in 1 John? He says, I write these things so that you may know, that you may know that you're standing in Christ.

And Christ said, all the Father gives me, I've not lost one of them. You can't be stripped from the

Father's hand. You cannot lose your salvation. And I think this theology is accepted because they look around at some of the other

Baptist, more of a pragmatic approaches, more of a

Finianism Baptist, and they say, well, this person prayed your sinner's prayer, did all the stuff, and they seemed like they were

Christian, but then they turn around, and they just live like the devil, and they do this, so they must have lost their salvation.

How can you say once saved, always saved? We would absolutely deny that there was any salvation at all that ever happened, because us saying words mean nothing.

It's like what Jesus said. He said, many will say to me, didn't I cast out demons in your name? Didn't I do these great, mighty works in your name?

He says, depart from me, for I never knew you, you workers of iniquity. It's about if Jesus knows us, not necessarily that we know

Jesus, and we'll know Jesus if Jesus knows us, and he calls us. But that,

I think, is where some of the confusion lies with some of these people, is they're like, man, this is no different than Baptist.

It's actually, in my opinion, and I'm gonna say something wild, the Finianism, the

Pragmatism Baptist, more of a...I'm

not even gonna go down that road. But that type of Baptist, compared to Church of Christ, the

Church of Christ theology is probably more consistent. I agree. It is. So we deny that categorically, but that's not what the...because

that's not what the Bible teaches. Scripture teaches that once you are saved, once you've been regenerated and you've been justified, that is a forever thing, and you cannot lose it.

And so what is an apostate, right? Right. Well, it's the soil that Jesus talked about, right?

Some of the seed lands on good soil and gets root, has root in Christ, and then grows up and produces fruit, and some lands on rocky soil and sprouts up quickly, but is quickly burned out by the sun and the elements because it never had any root.

I think it's 1 John 2 .19 that says you have some people that were of us, but they proved that they were never really of us and manifest themselves to the world.

Because they went out from us. They went out from us. They had the spirit of Antichrist. Jesus said, you're either for me or against me.

Yes. And so you got people that name the name. That verse you read earlier when they say, Lord, Lord, right?

Think about it. Lord, that's doctrine. They know that He is the divine Lord, and then it's

Lord, Lord. There's kind of a zeal with that, but it's not trusting Him. Can you speak to that?

Because you mentioned that earlier about Paul calling Jesus Lord. Can you speak to the distinction between those two?

Yes, because as I was really studying this out and getting excited and reaching out to Facebook forums online, someone just said, well, just because you say

Lord, Lord, doesn't mean you're saved, Matthew 7. Because I was getting tons of people saying, oh my, why do we not see more works in this?

And I was like, I'm glad people are joining along, but I need someone to challenge it. And so the point is, it's not just because you say

Lord, Lord. Let's say you do say that. Even the demons believe in tremble. There's even action attached to it.

People have the intellectual sin and even a type of zeal in themselves and the mighty works that they do.

But what's beautiful about the Apostle Paul is we know he is saved, right? That's a good distinction.

And so my point is, we look at the entirety of Paul's life and we know that Christ saved him, right?

And so we're saying the initial point of that was when he confessed Jesus as Lord. Yes. So that's the distinction. We look at the life that comes later, right, in light of someone saying that.

So that's what James 2 is all about, a said faith. Right. That type of said faith does not produce works and is therefore dead.

A changed heart, one that loves Christ. You're going to demonstrate to the world, right?

You're going to be like what Jesus said, let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works.

Why? Not to glorify yourself, not to please men. Your father in heaven. Your father in heaven, to give him glory.

Yes. So that's the point with the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus. That's the initial point of his salvation.

Right. No, that's so good. So, you know, we probably don't want to go a lot longer. We're about an hour and a half right now.

Oh man, it felt like 10 minutes. So there's some other verses that would be good to explain that we put down here that we were thinking through.

Romans 6, 3 through 4. So I'm going to put this up on the screen so as you read through it, if you want to go to reference another passage and you want me to pull it up, let me know and give me a moment to get to it so people can see.

I really was thinking we would talk about this because we were, I knew the proposition was going to be built in verses 17 and 18.

So I thought surely that he's going to have to connect it back to baptism earlier. And so I do want to look at these, but let's try to look.

We always look for context. And with the students at church, I ask them, what is context? You know what they say?

Con and text. And I'm like, what does that mean? I was like, you knuckleheads, you're not wrong when you say that.

But con means with. So what are those surrounding texts with the text in view?

So that's why you'd never want to build a theology off one verse. Right. And this, I mean, I think people laughed at me in the debate when

I just said you can't build a theology off one verse. You've got to look at the surrounding context. You've got to look to Scripture alone and all of Scripture.

I think people laugh at me. The reason they do that is because their hermeneutic, if I'm not mistaken, their hermeneutic is that it's the ceni, right?

The c -e -n -i, what's it called? Let me pull it up here. There's a command, example, necessary inference.

So I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that is their go -to hermeneutic. And so that's what leads them to see a command in Scripture, take it out of context, and then a necessary inference.

So I may be distorting that a little bit. If I am, somebody correct me on that. When I studied a little bit,

I wanted to know, and they do not use a grammatical historical hermeneutic.

They don't like that. That's why they don't like to go to the original languages. That's why they don't want to deal with the— Let me just say real quick what the grammatical historical method of interpretation is.

We're asking the question, what did the original authors mean by what they said?

Right. And how did the original audience, how would they have understood what was being said to them? Exactly. So we do that by looking at original languages and looking at context.

Correct. And that's huge. I don't know how you study Scripture at any level to preach and to teach without doing that.

Otherwise, you end up taking, like he did, the two verses and building an entire doctrine around this out of context.

My dad was at the debate, which was awesome, and he said something he liked that I said.

He was like, I wish you would have said it more, Jeremiah, and I laughed because we have a great relationship. But I was trying to explain,

Brock, the importance of context and explaining because someone could say, the Bible says there is no

God. And I remember when I said it, I paused. Oh man, it got silent in the room when you said that. Because everybody's getting ready to jump up and point, heretic!

You know, they're already thinking it, but they would have said it at that point. And the whole verse in Psalm 14 says, the fool has said in his heart, there is no

God. So that just models. You can't just look at one phrase or verse. You have to see its entire context, what it's all about.

And you can't just say, John 3, 16 says what it says, and you can't contest it. I actually, from Baptist -leaning crowds, that's the conversations

I get with other doctrines. And I'm like, let's go back early into the context with Nicodemus, similar to the

Church of Christ. They would want to do that there. I'm saying, let's do that. And even understanding language, just because of the limited nature of the

English language. You know, I've used it before, and I'm just gonna say it out here for many people. This is one of the more obvious ones, and it hits home with everybody.

You take the Hebrew language, you look at the Old Testament. The Hebrew language had seven words for love.

Seven different words for love. We have one. I love coffee. I love my wife,

Erica. Those are two very different loves. So when we see the word love in our English translation, we have to know the context of the original language to be able to even begin to comprehend what kind of love that text is speaking about.

And that's just one example of a tremendous amount. So we need those scholars, and we need that reference.

So I know we're getting off base here, but let's look at it. You said Romans? Romans 6. Romans 6? Yeah. Starting in verse 3.

We've got it on the screen. Yes. And so let me even begin at verse 1, which we've already alluded to this.

And you've got to think, Paul just built his doctrine on justification apart from works, and I think we can rightly say, by faith alone.

Right. So that's key, because the objection is saying, well, I can just go live however I want. That's important for how baptism is going to be used in this text.

Paul says, I love that.

That's one of the strongest things that he says in the Greek. By no means. Let it never be. Now, we keep going, but this is sufficient to explain a couple things here.

For one, and this is an interesting conversation I have with Church Christ all the time, because they will say baptism always means a wet immersion.

Right. And I'm like, really? Because when we look at baptizo, or baptiza, or baptizmos, that you see that there's different definitions for that.

And it even tells you, because you've got to have the examples in mind. You've got to have the Greek word in mind. Yep. And the context, because context will determine which syntactic domain of the definitions to use.

You don't just say, well, here's one time where it was used over here, and then immediately that's what it is like for everything else.

So the Church Christ delight, I think, baptism in Acts is talking about water baptism.

Right. I know there's dispute about that when you do look at church history. Right. And there's some merit because you've got the Holy Spirit being at work.

Right. But you see them coming up out of the water. Right. And I'm like, that's awesome context, especially in this narrative book.

And I think you made that clear at the debate also. Letting them know I'm not just cray cray all the time.

Yeah, yeah. You know. Just sometimes. Just sometimes. But what you see in Paul's doctrinal letters, and I believe it's 1

Corinthians 10 verse 2, where you had the people of Israel being baptized into Moses.

Yep. Yep. Now the context there, yeah, the water. Hey, can we pull that up? What verse is that? I believe it's 1

Corinthians 10 verse 2. If I had Adam Carmichael, this dude is like, he checks me.

He's been on here talking to us. Hey, Adam, what's going on, man? Yeah, okay. So verse 2, we see here, and all were baptized into Moses.

Okay. This is important. This is, I mean, I never say anything is a silver bullet because you got to always look at context.

But here's a good example where being baptized into Moses is not talking about a wet immersion.

Now some people will say, oh, look, does the verse say there's sea around? Right. Can you read the whole verse?

Yeah. And all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Right. So we should be thinking about the narrative of Exodus, right? Right. The parting of the sea, and they were immersed into Moses's leadership.

Yep. And I think I did bring this out at the debate. I've had Church of Christ before say, oh, you see, water is around. And I'm like, they weren't immersed in it.

That was split right down the middle, and they were not in the water. This demonstrates that immersion can be not only in the

Greek definition, but can be immersed into one's authority. Right. And so that's key, because he's doctrinally telling us this.

And then I tell people, when you look at 1 Peter, when you look at Colossians, you look here at Romans, this is, the context will bear this out also, that we are being baptized into Jesus's authority.

Yes. Okay. And then there is other examples in the gospel where baptism is in the context of suffering.

Jesus talks about, to James and John, do you really think you can undergo the baptism that I can undergo?

Yes. And so I'm just saying, baptism doesn't always mean a wet immersion. So knowing that, when we're looking at Romans 6, this is a doctrinal epistle.

Yes. He is writing to people who have already been baptized. Right. That is so important, especially when we're talking like Colossians 2 .12,

they've already been baptized. So he's giving them the doctrine of what their baptism represents. Yep. I mean, that's so important.

I can't stress that enough. I can actually go more and deeper into that, because they're just saying, well, how do you know it's a picture?

Romans 6 and Colossians 2 actually are the texts of me saying, he's literally giving you the doctrine of what happened when you were immersed in Christ.

Right. And that your water baptism was a picture of that. But here's the defeater. Okay. When someone wants to go to Romans 6.

Okay, let me get back there real quick. So let's go back to Romans 6 here. Which verse?

So we'll look once again at verses 3, 4, and perhaps 5. Okay. We are there.

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized in Christ were baptized into his death?

I want to pause. I'm going to say, when did you die? Yep. Oh, it was a spiritual death.

Okay. So we're talking about a spiritual truth here, not a physical baptism, because we're talking about a spiritual truth.

But they don't agree to spiritual death, because they don't believe in original sin.

That's true. But they would still have problem with this text, because they just assume that all this happens in a water baptism.

And I'm saying, okay, so you're talking about a physical baptism. Yep. And I'm saying, okay, let's see if there's any context clues that tells us this is physical.

Right. And so I say, when did you die? Because, oh, it was a spiritual death.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, yeah, it's talking about the spiritual truth of being immersed into Jesus's authority.

Right. And so the rest of the context bears us out, too. We were buried, therefore, with him by baptism into death.

When were you buried? Oh, spiritual truth. In order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the

Father, that we too might walk in newness of life. So when were you raised? Physically?

Oh, it's a spiritual raising. Right. Yep, yep. And I love the phrase, to walk in newness of life, because that's sanctification.

Right? Yes, absolutely. Of what Christ has done in our life. This sets the stage for this talking about sanctification in verse 5, for if we have been united with him in a death like his, we certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

I'm like, these are spiritual realities. Yes. And that's the context of baptism here.

That's good. So, once again, context is always king. Right. You look at what comes before and what comes, and you don't build a theology on one verse isolated apart from the entirety of the text.

Yep, that's good. That's a good definition, and I think that could be helpful for some of our listeners, some people chiming in.

If you're already a believer, this is a great passage to go to when speaking to your Church of Christ neighbors or co -workers.

It's a good lesson for us to be able to remember that passage. It's Romans 6, 3, and 4.

So the next one we want to look at was Galatians 3, 27. Yes, I'm so glad we're going to look at this.

It's funny, I talked a lot with Trey Fisher about the whole book of Galatians.

I love Trey so much. So, Galatians 3, 27.

So I'll read just the verse by itself, and then you can see how some people would say it says what it says, right?

Yes. So, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Now, you've got the whole Church of Christ denomination movement that says you've got to be baptized to be in Christ. So, Galatians is so important to understand as a whole, because we've even talked about Galatians 1, preaching a different gospel.

This is an important principle. Paul is rebuking the Judaizers for adding circumcision to the gospel.

He's not then going to turn around and say, but you can add baptism to the gospel. Right. So I want people just to think that helps us realize that that's not what

Paul is going to do. And back in chapter 2, verse 16, we don't have to have it on the screen, but just to help kind of give some more.

Go right there, 2 .16. Sure, 2 .16. Yeah, there we go. So, Paul is saying, yet we know that a person is not justified by the works of law, but through faith in Jesus Christ.

And then it kind of repeats himself, and that's how we're justified. And so the Church of Christ's objection to something like this is, well, circumcision is a work of law.

That's not the point. Right. The point is you can't do anything to earn your salvation. Right.

I think, as we're going to see, Galatians 3 is going to step into that. Right. But that's why passages like Ephesians chapter 2, 8, 9, and 10 lay that context.

There's no law in the context there. Right. And then Romans 4, perhaps we'll get into.

I know we're already kind of going long, but that's actually going to be key to this too. Romans 4,

I'm so blessed that it's written the way that it is. But basically, Paul is making the point that you are justified by faith apart from works of law.

Yes. And ergazimai, anything that you do. So it's deep. So anyway, it's the same person,

Paul, writing this, that we're justified by faith apart from works of law, apart from circumcision.

He's not going to contradict himself and say, oh, but you can bring in baptism later. So look at Galatians 3, verse 2.

Galatians 3, verse 2. All right. Me and Trey spent a long time talking about this because I thought, man, he's,

I mean, this is a really good point. Yeah, we're there. Let me ask you only this,

Paul says, did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

This is huge because this is how Jews are saved and this is how Gentiles are saved. Yes. And it's by hearing.

It's hearing the gospel preached and believing it in your heart. That new heart, yeah. And he's saying, so how did you get the spirit? Which is confirmation of your salvation.

Yeah. Had nothing to do with what you did in relation to the law, but it's by hearing of faith. That's good. And so with that in mind, verse 11 says, this is quoting

Habakkuk 2, 4. So this is another thing. The Church of Christ believed that people were saved differently in the

Old Testament. Right. Now they'll say, well, you had to have an obedient faith. Yes. But as it carries itself out, you're doing different steps of what it looks like.

Right, right. So you're saved differently. And it's not just Church of Christ that feel that way. A lot of Baptists misunderstand how that we were under, you know, a covenant of works and not a covenant of grace.

Go ahead. Yes. So verse 11, Paul is just repeating Habakkuk 2, 4. Now this is evident that no one is justified before God by law.

What you can do in order to obtain standard by opening a list of do's and don'ts. Right. For the righteous shall live by faith.

This is that Old Testament truth that justification is always. Because we read in the ESV righteous, that's just.

Yes. That's the same Greek word there, but it's by faith. Right. And we live to demonstrate that out. Yes. So we're building context.

And so then he goes into the law and the promise. And so verse 24, you've preached on this. The whole purpose of the law.

Yep. Wasn't to say, hey, try to obey this really, really well and keep your salvation. Right.

That's the principle that Church Christ are holding on to. They're not going to say the old mosaic law. They're going to say the law of the

New Testament. Right. Christ. Right. And I'm saying it just breaks my heart because this is literally legalism.

Right. Here's the same burden that they were carrying. Yes. So this is the purpose of the law.

So then the law was our guardian or a schoolmaster. I like a little King James Bible.

Sprinkle it in there. So then the law was our guardian until Christ came in order that we might be justified by faith.

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. That's important because we're building up to the context here.

For as many of you as were baptized. Oh, let me back up. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

For in Christ Jesus, you were all sons of God through faith. Yes. And then in the next breath, he says, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

When you came into connection with Christ by faith. Yes. You've been immersed with him.

You have actually, like you were reading with Martha earlier. Was it Martha? Yeah. In John 11?

Yes. We pass from death to life when we are in Christ by faith. Yep. Right. That's good. And so that's the baptism he's talking about there.

That you've been baptized, immersed into him. Right. His death has become your death. His newness of life is now your newness of life.

Yes. And this is the point. This is the same for Jew and Gentile or Greek.

But there is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free. There is no male or female.

For you are all one in Christ Jesus. He's not going to say, well, you can't do the work of circumcision.

Right. And then turn around and give a different set of commands to the people of Acts or whatever.

By including baptism. Right. It's the same gospel. Yes. That's so good, man. That's a good breakdown there, that trying to fly.

I know it's a bit of a 10 ,000 -foot overview. And in the debate, and I'll say this just really brief, but another text of the

Church of Christ, and I learned this as the more and more I interacted with them, they will say in Galatians 5 .4, this is a proof text of losing your salvation.

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace.

They're saying, so you can fall from grace? Yep. I'm like, no. You have the gospel of grace, and you are falling, deviating from that and believing in a system of works of righteousness.

Right. That is falling from the gospel of grace that he's already confirmed that context earlier in the book of Galatians.

So that's important. I was able to bring that out in the debate. Well, that's huge, too, because that's what we're getting at with why we're addressing these issues.

You know, we're not just trying to be divisive and cause ruckus and be problematic. Like we said before, our heart goes out to the people that are in this, and true believers can be sucked into this, like you just said, like you just pointed out there in the book of Galatians.

People can be deceived. Christians can be deceived.

And that's the whole purpose and point of our ministry in this, and this isn't the end.

You, with the apologetic dog, your apologetics ministry, your heart is to reach out and really expose the darkness of the church of Christ in this community, because that really is the leading false gospel,

I would say, in this community. There's more of them than there are of Jehovah's Witness or Mormons or anything like that.

And there's really no ministries that are kind of geared to really expose the church of Christ.

I love Matt Slick in Calm, he has a lot of really good articles, and I love Got Questions and some of these ministries, but there's nothing out there that's like...

Well, our brother Trey's doing this too. He's coming along with all of this too, and you guys are going to partner up a little bit.

So this isn't going to end. We're not just going to let this die out. We're coming after you, false teachers.

We're coming at you with everything we have, because we believe that's what God has called us to. Not just the church of Christ, false teachers, but any false teacher that we see growing up in prominence, we will go after with vengeance.

And we are not going to hold off, and we're not going to back off. And we're okay with the persecution that comes with all of this.

We're okay with everyone saying that we're just being divisive and hateful and whatnot. We don't want that.

But we have to be obedient to God first and foremost above anything else.

But let me tell you what we are going to do. We're going to do it in love. We are going to do it because anything that we do apart from love is like a clanging cymbal, right?

They can't hear our words that we're proclaiming, but we will say it with love.

So just know, Aaron Dodson and Brock Kendall, we love you.

We care for you. We're praying for you. We are praying for your families. We're praying for the people that are deceived under your false teaching.

And we're praying that you would repent or God would remove you from that. And we will continue to expose that false doctrine.

There's a gentleman that's been commenting on here, I believe his name is Travis, if I'm not mistaken. Okay. Travis Thomas.

Travis Thomas. Okay. And then I believe that's the guy that Trey is debating soon. Yes. Man, I can't wait for that.

It's going to be so good, and it's going to be on the Gospel Truth YouTube channel, right? I want to say something positive about Travis real fast.

A lot of how I've heard him carry himself, he's a very kind and respectful individual. Yeah.

Now we're all going to mess up at times, but I appreciate about him. Right. Him and my buddy

Cameron Vogel saying they had an interaction on Travis's YouTube. Okay. And it was a good interaction.

Nice. I don't want people just to listen to short clips that perhaps aren't capturing the whole conversation.

Go listen to the whole conversation. Right, right. So overall, I appreciated Travis's demeanor and things like that.

Well, that's good. And we can have some cordial conversations, but it doesn't change the fact that Travis is a false teacher, and we need to warn people about it.

We have to warn people of these false teachers, but we will do it in love. And his ministry, I think, is

Proof with Truth on YouTube. Is it? Okay. I just see his name on here. This is just his personal thing.

We have Jared Mayfield. That's a buddy of yours, right? He says, ever consider doing a debate over James 2, 14 through 26?

We talked about that earlier. I would love it. You guys spoke about it briefly in the cross -examination and Q &A.

That would be awesome. Anybody that wants to have any more debates, I'm not your guy to debate. This guy is.

So reach out to us. We are all about having these, and they will be done cordially.

I do want to tell people, though, my heart firstly belongs to the local church. Yes. So I've had people already reach out to me wanting to debate and just say, hey,

I think the truth as they saw it suffered on the other side, and they said, we would like to sit up. And I've just lovingly said, hey,

I appreciate you reaching out and being kind. Yeah. But I have a lot of wonderful responsibilities here at 12

Five Church. Yes. And I love these people. And we're going to be building a studio, and I'll perhaps be able to do more stuff.

But I don't feel the need to just do as much of that as I possibly can. I actually figured out, day of the debate,

I have super limitations on what I can handle. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. So definitely reach out to me.

I'd like to, if anything, build a friendship and talk about things. And then over time, we can definitely talk about what that looks like if we want to do online or in public or something like that.

Well, that'd be great. And yeah, we have to take things as they come. And God's going to provide.

He's going to open what doors and close what doors we need to close, and we need to be wise in that. But if you are interested in this ministry, if you've never heard of 12

Five Church or if you've been interested in finding out more about us, you can go to 12fivechurch .com.

That's the word 12, the number five, church .com. And you can reach out to us there on the website.

You can reach out to us here on Facebook, on Instagram. And we would love for you to come and see what

God is doing. We're a small church plant started at the end of 2020 and started in our living room.

And God has blessed us with a location, a building. And so join us. We meet every

Sunday at 10 a .m., and we worship together. And then we do what we call a koinonia feast.

It's a fellowship feast. People bring tons of food. There's always extra food. So if you don't bring anything, don't worry about that.

But come and stay with us and fellowship with us. We'd love to have you join us in that. And then we have a

Bible study every Wednesday night. You teach the youth in here in the building. And y 'all are going through the

Sermon on the Mount still. We're almost done. Almost done. It's been about a year. Y 'all are ahead of us on Sunday mornings, because that's what we're doing on Sunday mornings.

But then us adults, we have somebody teaching through 1 John, and we kind of just started.

So that's 6 .30 on Wednesday nights. You are more than welcome to come. We would love you.

You will be accepted with open arms, even if you are a part of a different religion or a group or not a

Christian at all. We've had Church Of Christ come. We have. And be kind. Yes. And just kind of curious about what's going on. And enjoyed it.

Yeah. And so we would love for you to come and be a part of it. If you are a believer and you are looking for a

Bible -believing church, if you're looking for a place that's going to be expositional, go line by line through Scripture, that is going to be intentional about discipleship, that is intentional with membership, this may be the place for you.

And we would love for you to come and join us. And just watch, like our

Facebook page here and follow us to see more debates, to see more events, more things that we will be doing, because we pray that God gives us more opportunities.

We just want to speak the truth and love, and we want to equip the saints for every good work, right?

And if people are interested in more debates, if you go to my YouTube channel, just Jeremiah Nortier, or you go to The Gospel Truth with Marlon Wilson, I've done other debates.

I think there's three other ones. One with the Mormon, one with the Greek Orthodox. That was fun. That was awesome.

And then a Roman Catholic. Yes. And so now Church Of Christ, and I'll be debating two

Roman Catholics next month on the authority of Scripture. I'm excited for that. Well, hey, thank you for defending the truth.

That's what God's called us to do, and we will continue to do that. We'll continue to call out these false teachers, and we will continue to love on people, especially the flock, the sheep.

And there are a lot of sheep that are out there in some of these false religions, and our heart goes out to you, and we're praying for you.

And we pray that God will bring you to a good Bible -believing church. There's a handful of us small churches around.

Some of our Presbyterian friends out near Bono. We've got a good group of believers that we have great fellowship with.

So if this isn't the place for you, we can guide you to somewhere else. So we're praying that God will continue to work in this.

Please reach out to us if you have questions. Want to talk through some of these matters that we talked through.

Today, or tonight, really felt like one of our elders' meetings, didn't it? Yeah. I feel like all we did was added the microphones and the lights, and this was an elders' meeting, minus the praying together for everybody.

But we will do that afterwards. There you go. So thank you for joining us. If you jumped in kind of midstream and want to check out the rest, we're going to keep this live feed up, and we'll hopefully get it put up on our

YouTube page. So go and follow our YouTube page so that you can kind of see sermons, videos, teaching, some things that we're trying to be more intentional with that page.

But go search us out, 12FiveChurch, and we're praying for the saints, and we're here to equip with the people that God brings our way.