Enuma Elish and Dan Barker

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning.
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Just about to finish off the month of March Believe it or not heading into April much going on I had hoped to have the specific room assignment to provide to you today for the
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Debate with Dan Barker on the 30th at the University of Illinois, but I don't have that yet Obviously, we'll get that up as soon as we have it and also the final
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Times and so on so forth for the Milwaukee debates as well. Those are still a little bit up in the air But we're trying to get those things nailed down but just today
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I was writing the my suggested schedule for the debate with Dan Barker on the issue the triune the thesis the triune
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God of Scripture lives and Yes, shamelessly stolen from the 1997 debate with Doug Wilson because I thought it was the best thesis statement
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I'd ever heard on that subject and Dan Barker has agreed to do that. So That'll be coming up in the 30th so Lots and lots to do this coming month obviously with that trip and then by the way at the end of May I'll be up in Salt Lake City With Bill McKeever and the folks at their conference speaking on two topics
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I will just basically be taking the talks. I normally do and and Mormonizing them.
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I have a talk on the New Testament So I will put that in the context of the 8th article of faith and my talk on the
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Trinity Obviously emphasizing those elements in regards to Mormonism, but I will be up there the last weekend in May up in Salt Lake City So if you're in that area, that's where we will be then in June.
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We're heading back to New Jersey we're all be speaking at a conference there and probably a little bit just before that and And lots of other stuff going on August down in Australia and all sorts of neat fun stuff going on so We are keeping ourselves busy.
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I have a task That I sort of need to finish today actually and it involves responding to a book that came out in 2005 which created a tremendous amount of controversy in Reformed circles
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And a number of you are familiar with this. The book is entitled inspiration and incarnation evangelicals and the problem of the
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Old Testament by Peter Enns who had had at that time been teaching at Westminster Theological Seminary for about a dozen years a tenured professor of Old Testament and In essence the the book is questioning our
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Historical understanding of the concept of inerrancy and the nature of inspiration and Enns is promoting the idea that we need to look at the scriptures in the context of Incarnation just as Jesus was the
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God man so to Scripture has its divine side and human side and there's nothing unusual certainly within Reformed circles of Thinking of the incarnation and using an incarnational model of the problem
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Of course is that what do you mean by the human side of scripture? Do you really mean the human side of Jesus which was sinless?
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Was not subject to failure Or error or sin or something like that?
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And yet that does seem to be what people want to do with the incarnational model
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In regards to the scripture is to allow for some kind of falsehood some kind of error along those lines and so I just want to take one example of this particular subject and Sort of expand upon it here on the program today again giving information that Normally, you wouldn't get off of a webcast or a radio program or something like that But that's what we like to do around here
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And that is ends begins providing some information in essence along the lines of Introducing us to ancient writings and In essence is asking the question look if there are similarities between the
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Old Testament text and ancient writings that existed contemporaneously With the earliest authors especially
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Genesis with Moses so on and so forth then does this not in some way Talk to us about what is and what is not unique about scripture and Again, I think this is important for everyone.
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You may be getting ready to tune out about now, but This is the kind of stuff that appears in textbooks.
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This is the kind of stuff that appears in the media This is the kind of stuff that is frequently just summarized and thrown out there saying well look
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You know, you've heard about this story, you know, the the flood story the Gilgamesh epic and all this stuff
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There's the stuff back there in the olden days We've discovered it over the past number of years and it just demonstrates the
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Bible's just ancient literature And it should just be taken as ancient literature is nothing special about it. So on and so forth
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And so I think you do need to know about these things Let me Read some from ends.
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You have an idea of where he's coming from Anuma Eilish, this is from page 25
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Anuma Eilish has been referred to as the Babylonian Genesis the title of the story is a modern Convention derived from the opening words the story
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Anuma Eilish went on high the version found in Ashburbanipal's library
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Consists of seven tablets and dates to the 7th century BC But it is recognized by scholars the story itself is much older determining the price precise age of the story is based on a combination
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Of linguistic and historical factors, but a date sometime in the second millennium BC is the consensus position
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Specifically the earliest likely date is the 18th century BC for it is around this time that the god
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Marduk Mentioned prominently in Anuma Eilish seemed to be raised to a prominent status.
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Some scholars suggest a slightly later date ie 14th 12th centuries In any case the extant copy of Anuma Eilish therefore does not in any way indicate when the story originated moreover
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There was certainly a period of oral transmission prior to written records in the ancient world This is all the more certain in view of general literacy not being a widespread phenomenon the second millennium
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BC What concerns us here however is not setting a firm date for Anuma Eilish, but understanding the similarities between it and Genesis and what they imply
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The degree to which Genesis and Anuma Eilish are truly parallel is a debated point But some of the more agreed -upon similarities of the following number one the sequence the days of creation is similar
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Including the creation of the firmament dry land luminaries and humanity followed by rest number two darkness precedes the creative acts
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Number three there is a division of the waters waters above and below the firmament Number four light exists before the creation of the sun moon and stars
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I should be quick to point out however that Genesis does not simply copy from an Anuma Eilish as If the
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Hebrew author of Genesis had a copy of this Akkadian text in front of him and borrowed from it Furthermore at each of the points mentioned above the
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Babylonian biblical creation stories are both similar and dissimilar Hence the consensus scholarly position is not to draw a direct line of dependence from Genesis to Anuma Eilish And I concur wholeheartedly when these tablets were discovered there was a tendency to exaggerate their influence in late 19th and early 20th centuries
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This was known as the Bible and Babel Controversy as time went on scholars generally began to develop a more sober appreciation for the relevance of the
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Babylonian material mainly the recognition of these dissimilarities One of the chief differences the
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Babylonian story depicts the creation of the world as a cosmic battle between the god Marduk and his great -great grandmother the goddess
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Tiamat Tiamat and her husband Apsu were the parents of all the gods Apsu intended to kill his divine offspring
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But his grandson Ea intervened and in an act of trickery killed Apsu in time
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Tiamat grew angry and planned to go to war against the other gods Ea's son Marduk then fought Tiamat and killed her
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From her slain body Marduk created heaven and earth an act that won him notoriety and thus eventually the head seat at the
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Babylonian Pantheon The purpose of Anuma Eilish seems to be to justify the worship of Marduk as the supreme
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God Despite these differences however the problem remains however different the two stories may be they unquestionably share a common way of speaking about the beginning of the world both
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Genesis and Anuma Eilish Quote breathe the same air and quote Whether or not the author of Genesis was familiar with the text known as to us as Anuma Eilish He was certainly working within a similar conceptual world so as unwise as it is to equate the two
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It is also ill -advised to make such a sharp distinction between them that the clear similarities are brushed aside
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Genesis account must be understood in its ancient context and stories like Anuma Eilish help us glimpse what that context looked like now almost everything
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That's been said so far if it was just taken in a balanced way you could agree with I mean
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There's there's nothing in any way shape or form that is Shocking about saying when we have literary remains of that are contemporary to any biblical writing that it's useful to Look at those writings to give us contemporary information how much information how much positive information have we gathered?
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From looking at information that is available about the New Testament about the the political situation in Rome about how
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Rome Conquered people and how they ruled over people and and how much background information have we found that has enlightened our understandings of Paul's missionary travels or whatever else it might be
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Clearly when we began digging up texts from Babylon from Assyria nations
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Prominently mentioned in the text of the Bible that gave great light to just brief
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References and the Old Testament to their gods which would have been thoroughly understandable originally But once knowledge those gods disappeared to us have been has been somewhat difficult to understand well
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They've shown even further light on the Bible you take all that and then you recognize that the
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Bible is written in a particular context and In fact, it's it's strikes me that the vast majority of People who comment on this today
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Attempt to move the stories of Genesis and Exodus and Viticus and Numbers and Deuteronomy into a much later time frame and Yet at this point are willing to transport them back to make connections
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Back to a much earlier time frame so you sort got to figure out which one it is Are we going to go ahead and let Moses be Moses and let
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Moses exist when Moses exists and and write what he writes? and Even if you even if that becomes codified and put together into one collection much later
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It's still Moses that's doing these things. Are we going to allow him to be back there and What ends ends up doing and I'm you know
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You read the book and then I listened to a NPR interview that he did after he was released from Westminster Seminary last year
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I think the NPR interview was in Was it August? I think it was in August or September of last year as I recall and You know, he's wanting to remain quote -unquote evangelical
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But he's sort of in that no -man's land where he's Not comfortable with shall we say the
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Chicago Statement on inerrancy, which if you have not read I highly recommend you do I think it's probably One of the most important documents of the last century and it weird to even think of the last century, but yeah of the last century
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He's sort of uncomfortable with that feels we need to modify some things But but he's not ready to go all out into you know liberal skepticism
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And so the application that he makes of this is what concerns me because he basically asked the question.
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Well How are we to view scripture as being unique if it sounds so much like these other stories and I recognize there were times in church history when
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Christians really did believe that the Bible was absolutely unique in in world history in the sense that If we looked at anything that had been written contemporaneously, it would look completely different than the
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Bible. I mean, it wasn't that long ago That our knowledge of ancient history was so limited
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That there were people who thought that coin a Greek was Holy Spirit Greek I'm not talking about just wacky people either
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Since we hadn't found the papyri That we have today and coin a
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Greek is different than what you would have for example in Plato in classical Greek There were those there were many sound people
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Who had come to the conclusion that in essence? Coin a Greek was a special form of Greek that the
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Holy Spirit came up with just write the New Testament And then we discovered the papyri and it became very clear that this was actually the lingua franca of the day
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This was the language of the people the street and yeah, it makes sense now Why in the world would the Holy Spirit make up a language that no one could understand?
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I mean that really didn't make a lot of sense But there were there were people who wondered since we don't have any other contemporaneous examples of this well now we do and so it's one thing to say well there have been times in the past we've believed certain things and To recognize that well yeah, you know we always do need to be examining some of the conclusions we've come to I mean there was a time when most
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Christians thought that the Sun revolved around the earth and and so on and so forth and and We need to critically examine those things and people love to jump from that to a wholesale rejection of everything scripture actually teaches and says
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But let's take a look Years ago I remember when
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I was back in seminary my parents helped me because it was way beyond my financial means at the time to purchase
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Pritchard's this is actually I'm reading from the supplement, but the main volume of Pritchard is a It's if you see it referenced in books.
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It's just a net Ancient Near Eastern texts As I recall correctly back in the 80s it was a hundred and sixty five bucks back then
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I don't know what in the world it Costs now, but they helped me to get that so that I could you know check things out when
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I was in seminary and stuff like that and the supplement Payerback supplement book is what
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I'm reading from you can find this on page 31 if you have the same material
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I'd like to read some of Our enuma a lish text just to give you an idea,
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I mean let's face it Most the time you just hear scholars Christian or otherwise make reference these things say oh, there's there's all these similarities
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I I think it really helps how many times when I've gone back and read read I might have read to you the
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Gnostic texts. Have you gone? Oh my goodness That's that's where the Marian dogmas come from or that's what people are trying to say is
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A a counterpoint to Christianity and you just go back and read this stuff
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Let it speak for itself in essence, and so let's let's look at Anuma a lish and let's let's see what
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I had to say. Let's just do some reading here They erected for him a princely throne facing his father's he sat down presiding
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This is speaking of Marduk by the way Thou art the most honored of the great gods thy decree is unrivaled
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I command is Anu Thou Marduk are the most honored of the great gods thy decree is unrivaled thy word is
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Anu From this day and chat unchangeable shall be thy pronouncement to raise to bring low
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These shall be in thy hand thy utterance shall be true. Thy command shall be unimpeachable no one among the gods shall transgress thy bounds an
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Adornment being wanted for the seats of the gods that the place their shrines ever be in thy place
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Oh Marduk, thou art indeed our Avenger. We have granted the kingship over the universe entire
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Please notice we have granted the kingship. This is the God speaking. That's what's going on here When in assembly thou sittest thy word shall be supreme thy weapons shall not fail
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They shall smash thy foes Oh Lord spare the life of him who trusts thee But pour out the life of the God who seized evil having placed in their midst a piece of cloth
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They address themselves to moderate Marduk their firstborn Lord truly that decree is first among gods say but to wreck or create it shall be open thy mouth the cloths will vanish
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Speak again the cloth shall be whole at the word of his mouth the cloth vanished He spoke again the cloth was restored when the gods his father's saw the fruit of his word
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Joyful, they did homage Marduk is king. They conferred on him scepter throne investment
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They gave him matchless weapons that ward off the foes go and cut off the life of Tiamat May the winds bear her blood to places undisclosed
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Bell's destiny thus fixed the gods his father's caused him to go the way of success and attainment
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He constructed a bow marked it as his weapon attached there to the arrow fixed its bow cord He raised the mace made his right hand grasp it bow and quiver
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He hung at his side in front of him. He set the lightning with a blazing flame. He filled his body He then made a net to unfold
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Tiamat therein the four winds He stationed that nothing of her might escape the south wind the north wind the east wind the west wind close to his side
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He held the net the gift of his father Anu He brought forth in Hulu the evil wind the whirlwind the hurricane the fourfold wind the sevenfold wind the cyclone and matchless wind
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Then he sent forth the winds he had brought forth the seven of them to stir up the inside of Tiamat They rose up behind him.
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Then the Lord raised up the flood storm his mighty weapon He mounted the storm chariot irresistible and terrifying
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He harnessed and yoked it to a team of four the killer the relentless the trampler the swift Sharp were their teeth bearing poison.
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They were versed and ravaged and destruction skilled on his right hand He post this posted the smiter fearsome in battle on the left the combat which repels all the zealous for a cloak
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He was wrapped in an armor of terror with his fearsome. Halo. His head was turbaned the Lord went forth and followed his course
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Towards the raging Tiamat. He set his face in his lips He held a spell a plant to put out poison was grasped in his hand
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Remember this is even before creation. So Keep that in mind
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Not much crash yo X in a helo here. In fact, there is no crash yo X in a helo at all
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I'm gonna skip down here Down to about line 85 or so Stand thou up and I and thou meet in single combat when
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Tiamat heard this she was like one possessed She took leave of her senses and fury Tiamat cried out loud
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Cried aloud out aloud. There we go to the roots her legs shook both together She recites a charm keeps casting her spell while the gods of battle sharpened their weapons
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Then joined issue Tiamat and Marduk wisest of gods They strove in single combat locked in battle the
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Lord spread out his net to enfold her the evil wind which followed behind He let loose in her face when
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Tiamat opened her mouth to consume him He drove in the evil wind that she closed not her lips as the fierce winds charged her belly
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Her body was distended and her mouth was wide open. He released the arrow it tore her belly
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It cut through her inside splitting the heart having thus subdued her he extinguished her life He cast down her carcass to stand upon it
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After he had slain Tiamat the leader her band was shattered her troop broken up and the gods her helpers who marched at her side
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Trembling with terror turned their backs about in order to save and preserve their lives tightly encircled
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They could not escape he made them captives and he smashed their weapons thrown into the net They found themselves ensnared placed in cells.
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They were filled with wailing bearing his wrath They were held imprisoned and the eleven creatures that which she had charged with all the band of demons that marched before her
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He cast into fetters their hands for all their resistance He trampled them underfoot and King Goo who had been chief made chief among them
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He bound and accounted him to a guy He took from him the tablets of fate not originally his sealed them with a seal and fast them on his breast
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When he had vanquished and subdued his adversaries had the vainglorious foe He had wholly established and Shahr's triumph over the foe
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New Dimmud's desire was achieved valiant Marduk strengthened his hold on the vanquished gods and turned back to Tiamat Whom he had bound the
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Lord trod on legs of Tiamat with his unsparing mace He crushed her skull when the arteries were blood.
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He had severed the north wind bore it to places undisclosed on seeing this His father's were joyful and jubilant They brought gifts of homage they to him then the
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Lord paused to view her dead body that he might divide the monster and do Artful works he split her like a shellfish into two parts and listen listen
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If you've tuned out listen back in him He split her like a shellfish into two parts half of her he set up and sealed it as sky
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Pulled down the bar and posted guards. He bade them to allow not her waters to escape
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He crossed the heavens and surveyed the regions. He squared Apsu's quarter the abode of New Dimmud as the
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Lord measured the dimensions of Apsu the great abode its likeness He fixed as a Shara the great abode a
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Shara which he made as the firmament Anu and leal and ilia he made occupy their places so he makes the created world out of the shattered body of Tiamat all right, so just Probably enough there to give you a good taste of what's going on here you have all sorts of Pre -existing stuff you've got arrows and poisons and spells and plants and and all this stuff that Really pre -exists, but the the heaven and the earth are made out of the shattered body of Tiamat and that's where the creation is and so I Go all right
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I Listen to what what Peter N. Says about the similarities. Well, they talk about darkness and the creation of Sun Moon and stars and Stuff well if you're gonna talk about creation.
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Yeah, you're gonna talk about all those things But it is the context in which these things are addressed that makes me go well wait a minute
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The most is there anything in the ancient world that even comes close?
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To the monotheistic The monotheism of The people of Israel and their view of a
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God who creates But he doesn't have to use pre -existent stuff to create
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I Mean if that that is such a fundamental foundational thing that it truly renders the similarities
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I I think fully understandable. I mean if you're gonna talk about creation. You've got to talk about what has been created so you're gonna have to talk about things like light and darkness and you're gonna have to talk about the sky and and the earth and All the rest that stuff
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Because you're talking about creation as it exists that makes sense that that doesn't surprise me But what does surprise me and maybe it's just because people get too close to the field
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Maybe you know, I really think that that's one of the reasons why Seminaries should be a part of a church
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Basically, I think every seminary professor should be teaching young people or something like that Just to keep your feet in the real world for a while You know the the stay out of the ivory towers in essence
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But I Think what happens is people start missing the forest for the trees or the trees the forest one of the two
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Because they don't see that the massive dissimilarity at a Foundational level what makes
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Genesis unique is not that it was understandable to people of old You have to speak in such a way that when you first produce the work it speaks to the people at that time
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The wonder of the Word of God is that it can speak to generation after generation after generation. I Mean it seems to me that what a lot of people want the
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Bible to be is something that is that is well It's very up -to -date. It's written in our language today Well, then it wouldn't have made any sense to anybody who came before us and that really goes back to again this massive case of Modernist itis that we seem to have where we think that that our
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Demands and our needs are more important than anybody who ever came before us obviously so when you when you take that stuff out of the way and Recognize that it's got to speak in the language of the day.
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It's got to address the issues that people are asking about in the day What is unique about it? Well, what's unique about it is that it's the only answer given to the issue of creation
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That follows this line in all the ancient world You don't have them cutting up gods and making the heavens and the earth out of the out of the the beaten -up body of Tiamat But that's what they had they this idea of a of a single
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Uncreated self -sustaining eternal God So that all the gods are false gods
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That's radical and that's absolutely unique and so, you know,
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I Again, I understand, you know, we need to need to ask some of these questions
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But sometimes I'm really confused at the answers that scholars come up with because they seem to be missing the obvious For whatever reason that might be now
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I've Given you there, you know one of the current big controversies because as you know
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It became a huge controversy if you're not aware of it. Let me just fill you in very quickly a lot of people didn't like where Peter ends was going with this book and I remember when it first came out it was during the
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Reformed Catholic controversy stuff remember and There were certain people just applauding ends.
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Oh, this is great This is this is super. This is this demonstrates that these these people that you know
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These old fogey reform folks just aren't keeping up with it but the problem is the in a seminary you you have those who teach the seminary and then you have what's called the board the board of directors or the that the people who really sort of run things and They Are I'm not sure how at Westminster the the members the board are are selected
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I think they come from various churches and all but be that as it may People started contacting the board and saying, you know
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This is this is very troubling and A vote was taken wherein the staff those teaching at Westminster supported ends but the directors of the seminary voted to suspend him and Eventually what came of it was it was a mutual parting of the ways rather than firing him
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As of I believe August of last year Ends was no longer teaching at Westminster seminary and that caused all sorts of problems
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There were websites set up some which have already been taken down People on both ends of the spectrum and and it again illustrates the fact that any seminary has a wide range of folks that are involved with it
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But it did create a whole lot of discussion a lot of focus on Westminster and people predicting its demise and and others saying and you know did the right thing and and so on and so forth and I don't know where ends is going to land or what he's going to be doing in in the future
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But certainly these issues are not going to be going away especially for people who do continue to believe in that archaic doctrine of inspiration and The necessary result of that that God does not lie
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That when men speak from God and they're carried along by the Holy Spirit that the resultant
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Theanostos revelation is trustworthy that issue is not going to go away
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We can stick our heads in the sand and ignore those things we want to But the fact is we have to keep dealing with it.
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So after we get back from the break take our one -caller We move from high -level discussions of inerrancy to what might be called a low -level discussion
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And that isn't gonna play some of the alleged contradictions thrown out by Dan Barker my future debate opponent
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On the subject the Bible and a debate that took place just a matter of weeks ago We'll be taking a look at that right after this break
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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Thank you And I'll go back to the dividing line before we press on with our topic for the day
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Let's take our phone call or talk with David. Hi David. Hey, how you doing? Dr. White doing good?
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First I'd just like to congratulate you guys on a 25 years. I know it's a bit late But no, no, we still got till October of this year is okay.
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Well Well, I know most of the comments that that people have sent in have been
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They've been, you know congratulating you and definitely that's you know, I would amen that but I know you can't do what you do
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By yourself, and you've got a lot of people Supporting you. I mean you got you know your church the
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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church You've got everyone associated with a oh man, and they're they're not getting quite as much credit
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And I know to your family sometimes I really think about them just because I Get in trouble just for listening to you.
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I can't imagine what like your wife must go through with, you know Catholic ladies contacting her and That was actually a colonel in the
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Air Force that tried to sneak a letter by me to her but No, definitely.
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The the family is extremely important we're a very small ministry the entire staff is within 10 feet of each other right now and So during the dividing line you have all of us in one convenient spot, but there's there is no question that this is a team effort and If anything ever happened to me,
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I'm not sure what Richard do and if anything happened to Rich, I don't know I would do so that's just sort of how it works.
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I think something happened to rich I'd be looking at folding this place into Someplace else where they have people who know how to do what needs to be done
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It's what would end up happening there and So anyway, but yeah, it's been It's been a long time and there's not a lot of apologetics ministries that have been around as long as we have.
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That's for sure Well, congratulations on that. I hope you guys are around for another 25 or more
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I hope so too in the last couple years. But uh, yeah, I think I was probably in kindergarten about You know
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Yeah Yes, sir. So you also had another question My question is
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Basically kind of on the right to be heard. I know a couple months ago I think it was you and rich you joked about Doing a pirate radio thing because you know, you're talking about some of the stuff that was going on In Europe and Canada, right and the free speech issues were you know, they're coming down on that and I'm I'm just wondering what your views are on that because when you say pirate radio,
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I mean, that's basically saying doing something legal Yeah, well, you know You know, the fact the matter is there are two well three major areas where?
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There are many people who would like to stifle all all speech on the subject and Those would be homosexuality abortion and Islam areas that I've spoken out on on each one of those and Really already.
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I think anybody in the United Kingdom in Canada Has to have in the back of their mind a little voice going could this get you in trouble whenever you start addressing particular subjects and There are people out there who just want to file.
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I think first it'll be civil nuisance lawsuits I mean,
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I remember when when Barry Lynn tried to suppress the Videotape of our debate. He wanted to file in the
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Ninth Circuit and we all know why he wanted to file the Ninth Circuit was because it's based in San Francisco for crying out loud and he knew that I wouldn't get anywhere anyplace else and so When you have corrupt officials, you have a corrupt society and things like that There are people who are going to try to use that to suppress
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The expression of an opinion other than theirs and we see that happening I don't know what the future is going to hold.
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I have I have no way of knowing I would imagine that we have a slight amount of insulation
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In light of the fact that we're not on publicly licensed airwaves I would I would imagine that the the first area where that would be going for would be that kind of mass distribution type of stuff and I've even thought about the fact that when
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I There was Some TV spots that I recorded about a year and a half ago, and I know that they had to do a different version
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For airing in Canada for that very reason So yeah, it's it's it's coming.
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I don't know what it's gonna look like. I don't know what we're gonna do about it I don't know what kind of Technologies are going to be available to us, you know,
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I think about something I read just last year a guy was going up to Canada to speak and He had been asked to speak on certain issues regarding the sexuality and so in the family
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So he wrote to the officials and he said alright tell me what
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I need to do tell me you know, I don't want to get in trouble while I'm up there and In essence the but eventually they worked out was that They'd have to pass out a permission slip in essence to everyone who attends
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Warning them that they might be offended by what is said and signing it That was the only way they could do it well you know is there going to be some mechanism in the future where everyone who listens to a webcast can provide a digital signature that That they agree to be offended
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You know, I mean who knows? I I just I really don't know. All I know is I see a form of fascism coming our direction the social fascism and It has in its in its core essence a
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Detestation of the gospel and what is good and what is right and and the idea that free speech really is only free for people
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Who are on the right side of political correctness, and I can't help but think I maybe they don't make kids read books like this anymore
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But I had to read 1984 when I was in high school Of course when I read 1984 1984 was still in the future
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Which made it much more interesting by the way, I should I should know but it does make you think of the thought police and and All the things that were were put into that book and and how it how it worked because you
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Unfortunately see people standing in the well of the United States Senate of the night the United States Congress today who think like those people
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Oh, definitely. It's it's surreal. Yeah. Yeah, so it's You know, but we don't have any choice.
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We we are our allegiance is first and foremost to the King of Kings and and there's going to come a time when we're gonna have to count the cost if we're going to speak the truth and does that mean that The first things that go will be all the plush buildings and stuff like that Well, I have a feeling a lot of the folks that have the big plush buildings
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We'll find a way to not worry about Leviticus 18 and 20 or Romans 1 and things like that No keep their plush buildings, but if we're gonna be faithful to the entirety entire
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Council of God then You're gonna start seeing an underground church. Yeah, there are ways of communicating that Hopefully there are enough
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Christians who understand it to be able to continue to to get the word out and to be able to be Of assistance to one another so I mean usually that's this type of thing
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It's usually sooner than later in the sense that whenever you think it's gonna start Push it back, you know
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Well, you know, you know what I'm saying? So for we're talking 2030. I'm saying try more like next year
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Well, you know I I used to I was thinking for a long time that this would be something that primarily my children and grandchildren be dealing with but Events over the past couple of years and when you have major economic upheavals
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That also is frequently used by people as an excuse to make major social changes, right?
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And I think that we're seeing that Could that reverse itself for a while?
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You know, no one knows what tomorrow's gonna hold I mean what I would see and I would for you Anyway, be especially careful for you can take this for what it's worth
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But what I would call and you've hinted at it before but like non -judicial punishment
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Meaning where they don't actually get you before a jury because that's too risky You know, they you can get one person who sides with you and it blows the whole thing and you look vindicated
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But you know raiding office offices confiscating property Especially with globalization, that's what
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I see hurting you is you being sued overseas Because that's already happening yeah, and UK is those there are people that will shop for countries where the laws are conducive to what they want to do and Because you know your material goes out to the world, right?
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Then you can in you know in some places be sued there and the laws are much more open and I'm thinking of UK Particularly right and and I I just noticed
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Just a couple days ago on the Fox News Channel I believe it was judge
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Napolitano was on who is a quite quite an interesting character if you ever catch him and Basically what he was saying was that some of the stuff going on in regards to The g20 summit and some of the regulations they want there are just a part of this idea of basically turning over the control of our economy
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To the Europeans in essence and the world court and stuff like that The Bush administration fought all of that kind of globalization stuff
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But obviously the Obama administration is in love with all of it And so yeah, we you could find yourself being sued by someone in in France Over speech issues and since the
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Constitution is no longer considered the highest law on land Yeah, these are all issues that I Mean because you can be arrested and detained up to 72 hours without Being charged and so if you got a nice protest that you're organizing
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Oh, and guess what easiest way to shut that down round everybody up You know a day or two before it happens.
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I mean, this is what the Chinese do. We'll see we'll see what will happen because I also know that 2010 is is coming fast
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And I just have to hope that there's enough people with common sense in Washington to realize that they're going to get
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Their pink slips real fast if they don't put it put the brakes on this the thing that's scary
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And I'll cut off with this and and David Thank you very much for your phone call today in the end and the talk about what we'll continue on the the thing that's
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Really caught my attention were the European leaders Who are warning that America is going too far toward socialism
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See, they know that America is the economic engine and they know that what they do over there won't work here
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So when they see us out doing them they get worried that's scary and That's that's amazing.
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But anyways, that's not the subject of the program I really don't think that Joel Steen would really approve that whole conversation there was kind of negative.
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It was very negative Yeah, it was I we were confessing What was that?
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Negative stuff. Yeah, it's a negative confession. There's no hope there. It was bad. Okay, I'm sorry Thanks, you've been watching a lot of Joel recently.
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You're not smiling as much as him He must I mean he must do he must like take creatine or something just to be able to keep that smile
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I've always got a mouthful of teeth. Oh, no, no question. I know he was on Fox News last night. I was so really
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Thrilled Why was he on Fox News? Oh, they got a new book coming out there. They're doing a big Oh Yankee the new
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Yankee Stadium They're gonna they're gonna fill the new Yankee Stadium. He and his wife with books with books
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Yeah, something tells me with people with deep pockets lots of money. Okay. Well, that's exciting.
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Well, let's get back Well, you know, I don't I'm not even sure I'm gonna have enough time here. Let's let's try to get to these Maybe I can just slide this into the next program as well we get started here and and continue on but From the sort of high end of discussion from Peter N's book inspiration incarnation
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We dropped down a little bit here because a debate took place sometime over the past number of weeks between Dan Barker and I believe a fellow by a name of Kyle, but But or buts,
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I don't remember which one all I remember was it was an unfortunate last name and That's just the only way
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I could put it was down south someplace and it is interesting because it seems to me that Dan sort of Massaged his presentation for the context that it was in which is understandable, but I think is in Tennessee someplace and Dan launched into a list of contradictions demonstrating that the
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God of the Bible does not exist By alleging contradiction in the Bible. And so I want to take a look at some of the allegations that he makes
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But but before I do that I'd like to before I go to the contradictions His opponent basically said there's an answer for all those things.
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You were you were not paying attention to Context so and so forth and this is how
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Dan responded later in the debate to what he had said I hear this all the time if you study it correctly,
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I know the Bible I translate it from original languages. I have Some Greek knowledge.
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I know what it says. I know the Bible contradicted Now did you catch that? I'm gonna
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I'm gonna play it again because I want you to hear what Dan says Scriptures I quoted were not taken out of context.
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They were carefully studied and I hear this all the time if you study it correctly I know the
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Bible I translate it from original languages. I have some Greek knowledge. I know what it says
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I know the Bible contradicted. I Translated from the original languages. I have Greek knowledge
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Well, he says languages and so it would require more than just Greek You'd have to know
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Hebrew and he does pronounce Hebrew words when he talks about but I raw in an
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Isaiah 45 and things like that, but compare that claim which I Translate the
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Scriptures So I could hand my Greek New Testament to Dan and he can translate it
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That's not what he said in another Context this was the talk he gave to the skeptics.
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I played a portion of this. Listen, listen to what he says here Pacific Eventually got a degree in religion with a little almost a minor in Bible Greek New Testament Greek Which doesn't mean
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I'm a great expert in New Testament Greek But I know enough about it to use a lexicon and pretty much understand the
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Greek text Which isn't that hard to do actually? So then a little bit later on in talking about his time in Azusa Pacific and his degree at Azusa Pacific Listen what he said here if maybe if I had gone to a real institution of higher education
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Instead of a glorified Sunday school as at that time as it was okay, but it was more of a
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Christian school so he describes his own theological education as glorified
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Sunday school and That he can use a lexicon and pronounce Greek words
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Not quite the same thing. I got from him saying that he can
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We're not taken out of context. They were carefully studied. I Hear this all the time if you study it correctly,
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I know the Bible I translated from original languages I have some Greek knowledge.
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I know what it says. I know the Bible So, I don't know
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I sort of sense a little bit of a difference there I sense a little more honesty talking to the skeptics
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Then then we get here and trying to defend this list of alleged contradictions and this list of alleged contradictions is
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Not really good Let's let's start working through a few of them and maybe
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You'll run to other people who use them and hence in the last few minutes here We can give you some good information. We can continue with them on the next program
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For example in Malachi 3 6 God said I am the Lord I Change not and yet all through the
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Bible. We see God changing his mind and you see here 32 14 The Lord repents of the evil which he thoughts to do unto his people
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And by the way, I'm giving one or two examples But there are multiple examples throughout the Bible which
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I detail in my book if you want to go into greater depth The God of the Bible does not change and the
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God of the Bible does change He does not exist so If you come up with a contradiction
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Then the God of the Bible does not exist Of course that's assuming that Dan is correctly interpreting each of the texts that he's citing
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And that he's not engaging in common errors of eisegesis common faux pas such as assuming
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That one word has the same meaning throughout the Bible a lot of Christians do this too
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How many times have you run into a Christian who just discovered Strong's exhaustive concordance?
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I've got a concordance and Therefore the first time that I run across this word.
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Well, it means this over here So it must mean this over there and well, that's just not the case
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There's this thing called Context and he likes go. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's supposed to be out of context.
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Well, yeah I'm sure that if I took his book godless and I ignored context
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I could come up with all sorts of silly statements And if I find that Dan Barker uses the same word in different context to mean different things
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Does that mean Dan Barker doesn't exist? Hmm. I don't think so He takes a text
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I'm the Lord I change not and he makes an assumption That in that contact context what it means is
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That there will never be any change in the way that God deals with his people
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Now would anyone reading Malachi have come up with that particular interpretation if they had already read what came before it?
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well, of course not because they've recognized that God dealt with God dealt with Abraham differently than he did with Moses God deals differently with the people of Israel under the judges than he does under the
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Kings He deals differently with Saul than he does with David He deals differently with Israel under judgment than he does when
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Israel is under blessing He's dealing now with the people who have returned back from Babylon And they're
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They're they're coming back and they're rebuilding the temple and and God has dealt with his people in all of these different ways so what he does is he takes the
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I change not and turns it into I act not or If I act
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I only act in one way for all time but that's not the context of the Malachi text and Hence it is not a contradiction to allow the
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Malachi text is saying that God's promise is going to be sure because God is not
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Changeable in the sense of one day saying this and next day contradicting himself saying I'm not going to do that that way anymore there is a simple
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Logical necessity to allow for God to act in time now now the interesting thing is that?
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Mr.. Barker one of some of his primary arguments against the existence of God come from his forcing
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God into time You can't have an eternal God who has the decree and then the acting out of that decree in time to us
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Appears as if God is changing and so on and so forth But in reality is the pursuit of that one decree in time can't allow for that He's constantly making arguments based upon God being time bound and again if by his own
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Profession his theological training was nothing, but glorified Sunday school. We can understand that because dealing with God as Eternal dealing with God as outside the realm of time is not generally something that you get in a glorified
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Sunday school But it is something that you would get in a little bit of a higher level of discussion
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So this first alleged contradiction really is is one of the poorest ones that I've that I've heard
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God said I the Lord and the jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third fourth generation the
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God of the Bible punishes people for their 1820 the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father in Deuteronomy 24
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The God of the Bible punishes children for their parents in the God of the Bible does not punish children for their parents in so This one has been brought up a number of times
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And The answer and you really do wonder From what Dan has said whether he's even familiar with the answers that have been offered over the years
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One of the later ones he goes back to the John thing where Jesus Says my witness is not true. My witness is true.
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And even though this Twelve years earlier than this he had been given a perfectly good explanation
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By Doug Wilson. He still just presents it as a bland Contradiction but in this kind of context he ignores what has normally been the response that I would offer and that is in Ezekiel 18 the context has to do with the fact that people are
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Using as an excuse to continue in their rebellion to not do what God has told them to do this proverb
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That well, it doesn't matter what we do We don't need to repent because we're just being punished for our parents sins
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Anyways, so we can just continue on in our ways because whether we repent or not isn't going to make any difference and God corrects that proverb and Give basically cuts out the ground from underneath them for being able to repent and to do what is proper in God's sight
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You will be punished for the sins. You're doing don't don't continue on your sins by saying well We're getting punished for our parents sins.
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Anyways, just doesn't make any difference the Concept presented in the preceding text is that when
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I sin I do bring tremendous difficulties upon My generation the generation after me we see that even more clearly in our day with drug use and all the rest of things that Come with it, but it's not
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I don't believe it's the idea that well my sins Are are therefore imputed to my children, so they're guilty of what
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I've done. I don't accept that But they do suffer for the things that I've done if they end up with diseases and incapacities and infirmities because of my actions
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Most definitely that comes upon them. There's no question about that. So again, it's a matter of allowing context to speak for itself
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We'll continue with Dan Barker's Allegations of contradiction here on the dividing line.
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Well Lord willing. We'll see on Thursday. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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That's a o m. I n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks