Enuma Elish and Dan Barker

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Just about to finish off the month of March Believe it or not heading into April much going on I had hoped to have the specific room assignment to provide you today for the Debate with Dan Barker on the 30th at the University of Illinois, but I don't have that yet.

Obviously, we'll get that up as soon as we have it and also the final Times and so on so forth for the Milwaukee debates as well. Those are still a little bit up in the air. But we're trying to get those things nailed down but just today I was writing the my suggested schedule for the debate with Dan Barker on the issue the try of the thesis the triune God of Scripture lives and Yes, shamelessly stolen from the 1997 debate with Doug Wilson because I thought it was the best thesis statement I'd ever heard on that subject and Dan Barker has agreed to do that.

So That'll be coming up in the 30th. So Lots and lots to do this coming month obviously with that trip and then by the way at the end of May I'll be up in Salt Lake City With Bill McKeever and the folks at their conference speaking on two topics I will just basically be taking the talks.

I normally do and and Mormonizing them. I have a talk on the New Testament. So I will put that in the context of the 8th article of faith and My talk on the Trinity obviously emphasizing those elements in regards to Mormonism.

But I will be up there the last weekend in May up in Salt Lake City. So if you're in that area, that's where we will be then in June. We're heading back to New Jersey where I'll be speaking at a conference there and probably a little bit just before that and Lots of other stuff going on August down in Australia and And all sorts of neat fun stuff going on so We are keeping ourselves busy.

I have a task that I sort of need to finish today actually and It involves responding to a book that came out in 2005 which created a tremendous amount of controversy in Reformed circles. And a number of you are familiar with this.

The book is entitled inspiration and incarnation Evangelicals and the problem of the Old Testament by Peter Enns who had had at that time been teaching at Westminster Theological Seminary for about a dozen years a tenured professor of Old Testament and In essence the the book is questioning our historical understanding of the concept of inerrancy and the nature of inspiration and Enns is promoting the idea that we need to look at the scriptures in the context of Incarnation just as Jesus was the God man so to scripture has its divine side and human side and there's nothing unusual certainly within reformed circles of Thinking of the incarnation and using an incarnational model.

The problem of course is that what do you mean by the human side of scripture? Do you really mean the human side of Jesus which was sinless? Was not subject to failure Or error or sin or something like that?

And yet that does seem to be what people want to do with the incarnational model in regards to the scripture is to allow for some kind of Falsehood some kind of error along those lines and so I just want to take one example of this particular subject and Sort of expand upon it here on the program today again giving information that Normally, you wouldn't get off of a webcast or a radio program or something like that.

But that's what we like to do around here. And that is Enns begins Providing some information in essence along the lines of Introducing us to ancient writings and In essence is asking the question look if there are similarities between the Old Testament text and ancient writings that existed contemporaneously.

With the earliest authors especially Genesis with Moses so on and so forth then does this not in some way Talk to us about what is and what is not unique about scripture and again, I think this is important for everyone you may be getting ready to tune out about now, but This is the kind of stuff that appears in textbooks.

This is the kind of stuff that appears in the media. This is the kind of stuff that is frequently just summarized and thrown out there saying well look. You know, you've heard about this story, you know the the flood story the Gilgamesh epic and all this stuff.

There's the stuff back there in the olden days. We've discovered it over the past number of years and it just demonstrates the Bible's just ancient literature. And it should just be taken as ancient literature is nothing special about it.

So on and so forth. And so I think you do need to know about these things. Let me Read some from Enns. So you have an idea of where he's coming from Enuma Eilish, this is from page 25. Enuma Eilish has been referred to as the Babylonian Genesis.

The title of the story is a modern Convention derived from the opening words the story Enuma Eilish went on high the version found in Ashburbanipal's library Consists of seven tablets and dates to the 7th century BC.

But it is recognized by scholars the story itself is much older determining the price precise age. The story is based on a combination of linguistic and historical factors. But a date sometime in the 2nd millennium BC is the consensus position.

Specifically the earliest likely date is the 18th century BC for it is around this time that the god Marduk Mentioned prominently in Enuma Eilish seem to be raised to a prominent status. Some scholars suggest a slightly later date ie 14th 12th centuries.

In any case the extant copy of Enuma Eilish. Therefore does not in any way indicate when the story originated. Moreover There was certainly a period of oral transmission prior to written records in the ancient world.

This is all the more certain in view of general literacy not being a widespread phenomenon the 2nd millennium BC. What concerns us here however is not setting a firm date for Enuma Eilish. But understanding the similarities between it and Genesis and what they imply.

The degree to which Genesis and Enuma Eilish are truly parallel is a debated point. But some of the more agreed-upon similarities of the following. Number one the sequence the days of creation is similar.

Including the creation of the firmament dry land luminaries and humanity followed by rest. Number two darkness precedes the creative acts. Number three there is a division of the waters waters above and below the firmament.

Number four light exists before the creation of the Sun Moon and stars. I should be quick to point out however that Genesis does not simply copy from an Enuma Eilish as if the Hebrew author of Genesis had a copy of this Akkadian text in front of him and borrowed from it.

Furthermore at each of the points mentioned above the Babylonian biblical creation stories are both similar and dissimilar. Hence the consensus scholarly position is not to draw a direct line of dependence from Genesis to Enuma Eilish.

And I concur wholeheartedly when these tablets were discovered there was a tendency to exaggerate their influence in late 19th and early 20th centuries. This was known as the Bible and Babel controversy.

As time went on scholars generally began to develop a more sober Appreciation for the relevance of the Babylonian material mainly the recognition of these dissimilarities. One of the chief differences the Babylonian story depicts the creation of the world as a cosmic battle between the god Marduk and his great-great grandmother the goddess Tiamat.

Tiamat and her husband Apsu were the parents of all the gods. Apsu intended to kill his divine offspring. But his grandson Ea intervened and in an act of trickery killed Apsu in Time. Tiamat grew angry and planned to go to war against the other gods.

Ea's son Marduk then fought Tiamat and killed her from her slain body. Marduk created heaven and earth an Act that won him notoriety and thus eventually the head seat at the Babylonian Pantheon. The purpose of Enuma Eilish seems to be to justify the worship of Marduk as the supreme God.

Despite these differences however the problem remains however different the two stories may be they unquestionably share a Common way of speaking about the beginning of the world. Both Genesis and Enuma Eilish quote breathe the same air and quote.

Whether or not the author of Genesis was familiar with the text known as to us as Enuma Eilish. He was certainly working within a similar Conceptual world so as unwise as it is to equate the two it is also ill-advised.

To make such a sharp distinction between them that the clear similarities are brushed aside. Genesis account must be understood in its ancient context and stories like Enuma Eilish help us glimpse what that context looked like now almost everything That's been said so far if it was just taken in a balanced way you could agree with I mean There's there's nothing in any way shape or form that is Shocking about saying when we have literary remains of that are contemporary to any biblical writing that it's useful to Look at those writings to give us contemporary information how much information how much positive information have we gathered from?

Looking at information that is available about the New Testament about the the political situation in Rome about how Rome Conquered people and how they ruled over people and and how much background information have we found that has enlightened our understandings of Paul's missionary travels or whatever else it might be.

Clearly when we began digging up texts from Babylon from Assyria nations prominently mentioned in the text of the Bible that Gave great light to just brief References and the Old Testament to their gods, which would have been thoroughly understandable originally.

But once knowledge those gods disappeared to us have been has been somewhat difficult to understand. Well, they've shown even further light on the Bible you take all that and then you recognize that the Bible is written in a particular context and in fact, it's it's strikes me that the vast majority of People who comment on this today Attempt to move the stories of Genesis and Exodus and Viticus and Numbers and Deuteronomy into a much later time frame and Yet at this point are willing to transport them back to make connections Back to a much earlier time frame.

So you sort of got to figure out which one it is. Are we going to go ahead and let Moses be Moses and let Moses exist when Moses exists and and write what he writes. And Even if you even if that becomes codified and put together into one collection much later.

It's still Moses that's doing these things. Are we gonna allow him to be back there and What ends ends up doing and I'm you know You read the book and then I listened to a NPR interview that he did after he was released from Westminster Seminary last year, I think the NPR interview was in Was it August.

I think it was in August or September of last year as I recall and You know, he's wanting to remain quote-unquote evangelical. But he's sort of in that no-man's land where he's Not comfortable with shall we say the Chicago Statement on inerrancy, which if you have not read I highly recommend you do I think it's probably One of the most important documents of the last century and it weird to even think of the last century, but yeah of the last century.

He's sort of uncomfortable with that feels we need to modify some things. But but he's not ready to go all out into, you know liberal skepticism. And so the application that he makes of this is what concerns me because he basically asked the question.

Well how are we to view scripture as being unique if it sounds so much like these other stories and I recognize there were times in church history when Christians really did believe that the Bible was absolutely unique in in world history in the sense that If we looked at anything that had been written contemporaneously, it would look completely different than the Bible.

I mean, it wasn't that long ago. That our knowledge of ancient history was so limited. That there were people who thought that Koine Greek was Holy Spirit Greek. I'm not talking about just wacky people either.

Since we hadn't found the papyri. That we have today and Koine Greek is different than what you would have for example in Plato in classical Greek. There were those there were many sound people. Who had come to the conclusion that in essence?

Koine Greek was a special form of Greek that the Holy Spirit came up with just to write the New Testament. And then we discovered the papyri and it became very clear that this was actually the lingua franca of the day.

This was the language of the people the street and yeah, it makes sense. Now why in the world would the Holy Spirit make up a language that no one could understand? I mean that really didn't make a lot of sense.

But there were there were people who wondered since we don't have any other contemporaneous examples of this. Well now we do and so it's one thing to say. Well, there have been times in the past. We've believed certain things and To recognize that well, yeah, you know, we always do need to be examining some of the conclusions we've come to.

I mean there was a time when most Christians thought that the Sun revolved around the earth and and so on and so forth and and We need to critically examine those things and people love to jump from that to a wholesale rejection of everything scripture actually teaches and says.

But let's take a look. Years ago, I remember when I was back in the seminary My parents helped me because it was way beyond my financial means at the time to purchase Pritchard's this is actually I'm reading from the supplement, but the main volume of Pritchard is a.

It's if you see it referenced in books. It's just a net Ancient Near Eastern texts as I recall correctly back in the 80s. It was a hundred and sixty-five bucks back then out in the what in the world it costs now, but They helped me to get that so that I could you know, check things out when I was in seminary and stuff like that and the supplement Paperback supplement book is what I'm reading from you can find this on page 31 if you have the same material I'd like to read some of our Enuma a lish text just to give you an idea.

I mean, let's face it. Most of the time you just hear scholars Christian or otherwise make reference these things say oh, there's there's all these similarities. I I think it really helps how many times when I've gone back and re-read I might have read to you the Gnostic texts.

Have you gone? Oh my goodness that's that's where the Marian dogmas come from or that's what people are trying to say is is a Counterpoint to Christianity and you just go back and read this stuff. Let it speak for itself in essence.

And so let's let's look at Enuma a lish and let's let's see what I had to say. Let's just do some reading here. They erected for him a princely throne facing his father's he sat down presiding. This is speaking of Marduk, by the way Thou art the most honored of the great gods.

Thy decree is unrivaled. I command is Anu. Thou Marduk are the most honored of the great gods. I decree is unrivaled. Thy word is Anu. From this day and chat unchangeable shall be thy pronouncement to raise to bring low.

These shall be in thy hand thy utterance shall be true. Thy command shall be unimpeachable. No one among the gods shall transgress thy bounds and Adornment being wanted for the seats of the gods that the place their shrines ever be in thy place.

Oh Marduk, thou art indeed our Avenger. We have granted thee kingship over the universe entire. Please notice we have granted thee kingship. This is the God speaking. That's what's going on here. When in assembly thou sit us thy word shall be supreme.

Thy weapons shall not fail. They shall smash thy foes. Oh Lord spare the life of him who trusts thee but pour out the life of the God who seized evil. Having placed in their midst a piece of cloth. They address themselves to moderate Marduk.

They're firstborn Lord truly that decree is first among gods say but to wreck or create it shall be opened by mouth. The cloths will vanish speak again. The cloth shall be whole at the word of his mouth.

The cloth vanished. He spoke again. The cloth was restored when the gods his father's saw the fruit of his word joyful. They did homage. Marduk is king. They conferred on him scepter throne investment.

They gave him matchless weapons that ward off the foes go and cut off the life of Tiamat. May the winds bear her blood to places undisclosed. Bells destiny thus fixed the gods his father's caused him to go the way of success and attainment.

He constructed a bow marked it as his weapon attached there to the arrow fixed its bow cord. He raised the mace made his right hand grasp it bow and quiver. He hung at his side in front of him. He set the lightning with a blazing flame.

He filled his body. He then made a net to unfold Tiamat therein the four winds. He stationed that nothing of her might escape the south wind the north wind the east wind the west wind close to his side.

He held the net the gift of his father Anu. He brought forth Imhulu the evil wind the whirlwind the hurricane the fourfold wind the sevenfold wind the cyclone and matchless wind. Then he sent forth the winds he had brought forth the seven of them to stir up the inside of Tiamat.

They rose up behind him. Then the Lord raised up the floodstorm his mighty weapon. He mounted the storm chariot irresistible and terrifying. He harnessed and yoked it to a team of four the killer the relentless the trampler the swift.

Sharp were their teeth bearing poison. They were versed and ravaged and destruction skilled on his right hand. He post this posted the smiter fearsome in battle on the left the combat which repels all the zealous for a cloak.

He was wrapped in an armor of terror with his fearsome. Halo. His head was turbaned. The Lord went forth and followed his course. Towards the raging Tiamat. He set his face in his lips. He held a spell a plant to put out poison was grasped in his hand.

Remember this is even before creation. So Keep that in mind. Not much crash yo X in a helo here. In fact, there is no crash yo X in a helo at all. I'm gonna skip down here. Down to about line 85 or so.

Stand thou up and I and thou meet in single combat. When Tiamat heard this she was like one possessed. She took leave of her senses and fury. Tiamat cried out loud. Cried aloud out aloud. There we go to the roots.

Her legs shook both together. She recites a charm keeps casting her spell while the gods of battle sharpened their weapons. Then joined issue Tiamat and Marduk wisest of gods. They strove in single combat locked in battle.

The Lord spread out his net to enfold her the evil wind which followed behind. He let loose in her face when Tiamat opened her mouth to consume him. He drove in the evil wind that she closed not her lips as the fierce winds charged her belly.

Her body was distended and her mouth was wide open. He released the arrow it tore her belly. It cut through her inside splitting the heart having thus subdued her he extinguished her life. He cast down her carcass to stand upon it.

After he had slain Tiamat the leader her band was shattered her troop broken up and the gods her helpers who marched at her side. Trembling with terror turned their backs about in order to save and preserve their lives tightly encircled.

They could not escape. He made them captives and he smashed their weapons thrown into the net. They found themselves ensnared placed in cells. They were filled with wailing bearing his wrath. They were held imprisoned and the eleven creatures that which she had charged with all the band of demons that marched before her.

He cast into fetters their hands for all their resistance. He trampled them underfoot and King Gu who had been chief made chief among them. He bound and accounted him to a guy. He took from him the tablets of fate not originally his sealed them with a seal and fast them on his breast.

When he had vanquished and subdued his adversaries had the vainglorious foe. He had wholly established and Shahr's triumph over the foe. New Dimmud's desire was achieved valiant. Marduk strengthened his hold on the vanquished gods and turned back to Tiamat whom he had bound.

The Lord trod on legs of Tiamat with his unsparing mace. He crushed her skull when the arteries were blood he had severed the north wind bore to places undisclosed on. Seeing this his father's were joyful and jubilant.

They brought gifts of homage they to him then the Lord paused to view her dead body. That he might divide the monster and do artful works. He split her like a shellfish into two parts and listen listen.

If you've tuned out listen back in him. He split her like a shellfish into two parts half of her he set up and sealed it as sky. Pulled down the bar and posted guards. He bade them to allow not her waters to escape.

He crossed the heavens and surveyed the regions. He squared Apsu's quarter the abode of New Dimmud as the Lord measured the dimensions of Apsu the great abode its likeness. He fixed as a shara the great abode a shara which he made as the firmament Anu and leal and eel.

Yeah, he made occupy their places. So he makes the created world out of the shattered body of Tiamat all right, so just. Probably enough there to give you a good taste of what's going on here. You have all sorts of Pre-existing stuff.

You've got arrows and poisons and spells and plants and And all this stuff that really pre-exists, but the the heaven and the earth are made out of the shattered body of Tiamat and that's where the creation is and so I Go, all right.

I Listen to what what Peter N says about the similarities? Well, they talk about darkness and the creation of Sun Moon and stars and Stuff. Well, if you're gonna talk about creation, yeah, you're gonna talk about all those things.

But it is the context in which these things are addressed that makes me go well, wait a minute. The most is there anything in the ancient world that even comes close? To the Monotheistic the monotheism of the people of Israel and their view of a God who creates.

But he doesn't have to use pre-existent stuff to create. I Mean if that that is such a fundamental foundational thing that it truly renders the similarities I I think fully understandable. I mean if you're gonna talk about creation, you've got to talk about what has been created.

So you're gonna have to talk about things like light and darkness and you're gonna have to talk about the sky and and the earth and all the rest of that stuff. Because you're talking about creation as it exists that makes sense that that doesn't surprise me.

But what does surprise me and maybe it's just because people get too close to the field. Maybe you know, I really think that that's one of the reasons why Seminary should be a part of a church. Basically, I think every seminary professor should be teaching young people or something like that.

Just to keep your feet in the real world for a while. You know, the stay out of the ivory towers in essence. But I Think what happens is people start missing the forest for the trees or the trees the forest one of the two.

Because they don't see that the massive dissimilarity at a Foundational level what makes Genesis unique is Not that it was understandable to people of old you have to speak in such a way that when you first Produce the work it speaks to the people at that time.

The wonder of the Word of God is that it can speak to generation after generation after generation. I Mean it seems to me that what a lot of people want the Bible to be is something that is that is well It's very up-to-date.

It's written in our language today. Well, then it wouldn't have made any sense to anybody who came before us and that really goes back to again this massive case of Modernist itis that we seem to have where we think that that our demands and our needs are more important than anybody who ever came before us obviously.

So when you when you take that stuff out of the way and Recognize that it's got to speak in the language of the day. It's got to address the issues that people are asking about in the day. What is unique about it?

Well, what's unique about it? Is that it's the only answer given to the issue of creation that follows this line in all the ancient world. You don't have them cutting up gods and making the heavens and the earth out of the out of the the beaten-up body of Tiamat.

But that's what they had they this idea of a of a single Uncreated self-sustaining eternal God. So that all other gods are false gods that's radical and that's absolutely unique and so, you know, I Again, I understand, you know, we need to need to ask some of these questions.

But sometimes I'm really confused at the answers that scholars come up with because they seem to be missing the obvious. For whatever reason that might be now I've Given you there, you know one of the current Big controversies because as you know, it became a huge controversy if you're not aware of it.

Let me just fill you in very quickly a lot of people didn't like where Peter ends was going with this book and I remember when it first came out. It was during the Reformed Catholic Controversy stuff remember and There were certain people just applauding ends.

Oh, this is great. This is this is super. This is this demonstrates that these these people that you know, these old fogey reform folks just aren't keeping up with it but the problem is the in a seminary you you have those who teach the seminary and then you have what's called the board the board of directors or the That the people who really sort of run things and They are I'm not sure how at Westminster the the members the board are selected I think they come from various churches and all but be that as it may.

People started contacting the board and saying, you know This is this is very troubling and A vote was taken wherein the staff those teaching at Westminster supported ends but the directors of the seminary voted to suspend him and Eventually what came of it was it was a mutual parting of the ways rather than firing him.

As of I believe August of last year Ends was no longer teaching at Westminster seminary and that caused all sorts of problems. There were websites set up some which have already been taken down people on both ends of the spectrum and and it again illustrates the fact that any seminary has a wide range of folks that are involved with it.

But it did create a whole lot of discussion a lot of focus on Westminster and people predicting its demise and and Others saying and you know did the right thing and and so on and so forth. And I don't know where ends is going to land or what he's going to be doing in in the future.

But certainly these issues are not going to be going away especially for people who do continue to believe in that archaic doctrine of inspiration and The necessary result of that that God does not lie.

That when men speak from God and they're carried along by the Holy Spirit that the resultant Theanostos revelation is trustworthy that issue is not going to go away. We can stick our heads in the sand and ignore those things we want to.

But the fact is we have to keep dealing with it. So after we get back from the break take our one-caller. We move from high-level Discussions of inerrancy to what might be called a low-level discussion and that is going to play some of the alleged Contradictions thrown out by Dan Barker my future debate opponent On the subject the Bible and a debate that took place just a matter of weeks ago.

We'll be taking a look at that right after this break.

Today many stop strong and true.

Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools. Users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources.

Pastors you will appreciate the phrase matching tool which will allow you to find all of the verses containing Phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon preparation.

Seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope Book or chapter plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences.

Scholars. Your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your computer As well as the internet. Dr. James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available.

I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program. This is the program that runs 24 7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when I engage In debates it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text.

For over 15 years Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and That enables you to do one thing focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth. Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate.

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine. In his book the God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute. James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. Jay Adams says I lost sleep over this book.

I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words.

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org. Hello, everyone. This is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered Self-help program the need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses.

Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior? We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well. Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you, and I'll go back to the dividing line before we press on with our topic for the day.

Let's take our phone call or talk with David. Hi David. Hey, how you doing? Dr. White doing good.

Congratulate you guys on a 25 years. I know it's a bit late.

No, no, we still got till October of this year is okay. Well.

Well, I know most of the comments that the people have sent in have been. You know, I would amen now, but I know you can't do what you do. You've got a lot of people Supporting you. I mean you got you know your church the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

You've got everyone associated with AOM and quite as much credit. And I know to your family sometimes I really think about them just because I get in trouble just for listening to you. I can't imagine what like your wife must go through with you know, Catholic ladies contacting her and.

You know.

That was actually a colonel in the Air Force that tried to sneak a letter by me to her but No, definitely. The the family is extremely important. We're a very small ministry the entire staff is within 10 feet of each other right now and So during the dividing line you have all of us in one convenient spot, but there's there is no question that this is a team effort and Anything ever happened to me?

I'm not sure what Richard do and if anything happened to rich, I don't know I would do so that's just sort of how it works. I think something happened to rich I'd be looking at folding this place into Someplace else where they have people who know how to do what needs to be done.

I Think it's what would end up happening there and So anyway, but yeah, it's been It's been a long time and there's not a lot of apologetics ministries that have been around as long as we have. That's for sure.

Well, congratulations on that. I hope you guys are around for another 25 or more. In the last couple years, but yeah, I think I was probably in kindergarten about.

Yes, sir, so you also had another question.

My question is Basically kind of on the right to be heard. I know a couple months ago because you know you're talking about some of the stuff in Canada, right? And the free speech issues were. I'm just wondering what your views are on that because when you say pirate radio, I mean, that's Basically saying doing something legal.