The Hordes of NoCo

What? You just threatened to mute me if I wasn't careful.

What is it supposed to say? Welcome to No Compromise Radio. You get the intro today.

Okay, welcome to No Compromise Radio. My name is Steve Cooley. I'm the Tuesday guy. I'm here in studio with Pastor Mike Eamondroth.

You have such a good voice for radio.

Okay.

Thank you, and thanks for joining us here today.

Steve, in the past, in the summertime, if I've been gone, you've done some shows on your own. I think we, I think the hordes are demanding this.

The hordes, that's pretty funny.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you're out there, you've just been called the no-co-horde, you know. The vast legion of no-co-listeners.

So Steve, I always write down on a piece of notepaper here the show name, so I'll know when I upload the thing. And so, I've already written down the name of this show. The Hordes of No-Co-Hordes.

Do, do, do.

Here they come.

Well, hey, Mike Eamondroth here with Steve Cooley. Glad you've tuned in. Steve and I have been doing the show quite a long time. And I think, Steve, I either get the emails that say, have Steve on more often, or maybe I get them that say,.

Have him on less often.

Way less. You know, I don't know why that's so funny. I find it very sad. It hurts my feelings, people, I'm just saying.

Come on, our dozen listeners, come on.

I'm sensitive.

Steve, we have been thinking about a Sunday school, adult Sunday school topic at Bethlehem Bible Church. That would be kind of a change up, almost like you do a theological subject and then you do a practical one, or five theological ones and practical.

What in the past have you been teaching at Sunday school on the theological level?

Well, I've just finished basically a 98 unit seminary level course on the Trinity. And before that, I think it was a soteriology. Before that, it was a pastor's home. Before that, it was Greek, Hebrew.

You belong to the circus, you fuck.

To the dog-faced boy.

The dog-faced pony soldier.

But I think, did you do Nothing Greater by Barrett?

No, I let the boys do that, Andrew and Corey did that. I did. Simply Trinity.

So we have the Hordes of Noco.

And we have the Boys of Noco.

Yeah, the Boys of Bethlehem Bible Church.

The boys are back in town, so it's the boys of Bethlehem. So we are going to start a parenting series at Sunday school and maybe you're gonna start it, I'm gonna help you, or I don't know how we figure that out.

But you've got some questions that we're going to kind of do a Noco-style Sunday school.

Yeah, you're the fount of all modern wisdom, so my job is to ask you the questions and then you get to wax eloquent.

Do you know, Steve, I was reading my Robert Murray McShane Bible reading program this morning and I want to say that it's Proverbs chapter 20 that I read this morning and it says in verse five, the purpose in a man's heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out.

And I think that's gonna be your ministry, not only today, but also on Sunday, to draw out that understanding that's within me.

So I'm gonna throw the bucket into the well and we'll see what comes out. I think that's it.

That's kind of a counseling verse though, right?

Yeah, it is kind of.

I remember when I was counseling someone back in North Hollywood and they were struggling with a sin and I talked to Jay Adams, we were in the car, I had to drive him to the airport and Jay said, basically, if he could counsel the man, he could help the man with victory while I couldn't.

Because a man of understanding will draw it out.

Yes, he will.

Okay, so kind of generally parenting. And Steve, we're not going to start with how to parent five months old or newborns. We're gonna go the other route. Why was that your suggestion? Because I'm laying that all on you.

Well, for a few reasons. One is, I think you've done parenting for young children in the past at the church in the evening, but we've never really had a series that carried out into so-called adolescence, dating, the change essentially from young adult to adult, how you finish up the training, how you end the training of the Padawans, so to speak.

Well, I'm glad you didn't say adolescence because that's an unbiblical category.

I know, in fact, that's in my notes.

Oh, it is?

Yes. Nice.

Well, go ahead.

No, no, I was gonna say just on today on No Compromise Radio, we're gonna talk as two old geezers, 64-year-old Steve and 63-year-old Mike, about parenting. We're experts in parenting mistakes, so we're gonna try to tell you what not to do that we did.

Okay, youngster, let's step up to the plate and see what you got.

All right, so since you just mentioned this, if you don't believe in the concept of adolescence, then how can you justify adults having to submit their marital choices to their parents?

Uh-oh. Well, thanks for tuning in to No Compromise Radio. We'll be talking to you next week on our broadcast.

He's like, yeah, it's been fun and it's been real,.

But it hasn't been real fun.

See you later.

I think it's one of the hardest things to do, Steve, is to navigate through someone who's 25 years old, they're a Christian, they wanna marry some other Christian person that maybe is a different denomination, and we can't get one of the parents' approvals.

That's a hard one to work through because obviously the fifth commandment, honor your father and mother. Now, there are words for obey and there are words for honor. How can you honor and disobey? We could work through that as well, but that's a difficult one.

I probably would want, Steve, a more exact situation so I could look at my case counseling book and my chance at it.

Yeah, I mean, just for example, a dad says, I don't approve of this marriage. Okay, so then what? The kids can't, you know, the daughter, okay, let's just make it easy. The daughter wants to get married to this guy.

The dad says, no, this is not the right guy to marry. Now, you know, how do you navigate through that?

Well, if the young lady is 18, I probably would put more emphasis on the father's authority. If the young lady is 38, I'd probably put less authority there, give authority to the father. I would say to the 20-year-old young man trying to win this woman or the 25-year-old young man, do you know what?

Don't immediately elope. There are different ways to try to win this man, the dad. And sometimes it's time. Sometimes it's spending time with each other. Sometimes it's bribes and gifts. Sometimes it's prayer.

And so don't immediately circumnavigate the father's authority when it suits you because you think you're an adult and you no longer have to submit to the authority of a potential father-in-law or the daughter doesn't have to submit.

So far so good?

Yeah.

And so I think right away, and we've had cases like this before. I asked the dad for the hand of marriage and he said no. Okay, well, now we need to know more information. Why did he say no? Well, because I don't have a job and I don't have health insurance.

Okay.

Those are pretty good reasons to say no.

Right, I would imagine you're probably going to do what people do on the marriage bed and you're probably gonna have kids one day or somebody's gonna get sick and you need that. And so why is the dad saying no?

If the dad is a Muslim and you're trying to marry the daughter who had been converted into Christianity, that's a whole other conversation because we're supposed to marry in the Lord and you'll probably never get that dad's approval.

So sometimes I'm thinking, see, and I hate to even say it, Steve, I'm reticent to say that sometimes we just need to ignore the dad's advice. Is that wrong to think? I mean, I'm stumbling here.

Is it wrong to ignore the dad's advice? No, but I think you hit it right when you said, as the children age, certainly a young woman, and she's still young if she's 38, should have more input into the situation.

I mean, she's probably already got a career and some other things going on in life. She's a lot more mature than 18, 20, even 22-year-old young woman. So yeah, so I think there's a process for working through that, but I think to just, the custom today would be kind of to ignore what the parents say and to just go through and have the wedding anyway, right?

I mean, that's what a lot of people do.

Steve, I think you're exactly right. What happens today? The young man asks the father of the young lady, may I please marry your daughter? And it's not really a question. It's perfunctory. It's, well, we're already gonna get married anyway, and now I have to jump through the hoops, right?

I just got down on my knee and ask, or I'm gonna go do that, but I have to talk to you first. But I think it's a real question. It should be a real question because sometimes young people, 18, like you said, 22, 24, they need some help and they might need a father, potential father-in-law to say, here's some growing up you should do in this area or that area, and I can even help you do that before I just say yes because you ask.

Every person that's entered my life, Steve, who has been interested in one of my daughters, I thought the Lord has just given me a new discipleship relationship to either help them to get the wife or help them not get the wife, but help them to honor the Lord.

How did it work out with your daughters?

Well, I think it worked out very well.

I don't mean that.

How did it work out?

Like, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

How did it work out?

How did it play out?

How did I process all that? I mean, I can remember, you know, the first thing I would say, because the girls would tell me, you know, this guy is interested in me and would you talk to him? Or sometimes I even had guys come directly to me, which, you know, I found more impressive, right?

So, you know, I'd meet with them and get to know them and, you know, then come back and just say, sometimes I'd say to my daughter, you know what? This is not the right guy. Or maybe this is the right guy, but now is not the right time.

You know, he's not ready for some of the reasons that you said. He, you know, he doesn't have a career path. He's still in college or he's, you know, doesn't know what he wants to do with his life.

Brand new converts, we're not really sure.

Yes, you know, issues like that, sure.

Steve, I think now I've got a better grounding in my mind as I'm working through this. Let's take this angle. If a young lady is very close to her parents and the parents and that young lady have a great relationship and the Christian's mom, dad, and daughter, that young lady wants to know what her parents think, right?

She's involved with them and she's getting that young man around other church people because, you know, it takes a village. And then the man says to the dad, I'd like to marry your daughter. I think in a real godly, righteous family, if that dad says, you know what?

I've been watching you and I really see a lot of potential and I love you, but I think you probably should work on this, that, or the other for the next six months or a year or whatever. I think the daughter would understand that.

In some cases, I mean, you know, and I think what we're talking about in many instances is the young man and the young woman are so emotionally ahead of where everything else is. You know, in other words, the daughter's already decided she wants to marry this guy and then, you know, the guy comes to the dad and says, can I marry your daughter?

And if the dad says, well, I want you to wait six months or to work on this or to do this or the other thing, well, the daughter's gonna come, you know, unglued as it were because she's already made up her mind because her emotions are the decision makers.

Okay, I just had a revelation. God has just given me a burning in my bosom. In a good, healthy, righteous relationship with all involved, I don't think the young man is going to get to the point where he says, could I marry your daughter?

Unless he knows he's going to get that approval.

That's right.

Now that's the good show right there.

That's what should happen.

Right, it doesn't have to be a perfect relationship, but a godly relationship. We're already working through some of those things because I think the parents can help the daughter understand this guy might be nice, but he's not really for you.

And then it never gets to the point of the man saying, could I have your daughter's hand in marriage? I think of my son, Luke. He married Hannah last year. And if memory serves me, Hannah was 27, living at home at Luke.

There was a young man before Luke that asked the dad, could I marry your daughter? And the dad said, no. And obviously they didn't get married because Luke came along and then Luke went over the dad, can I marry your daughter?

And he said, yes. And so even there, a relationship between a daughter and a father, I think there's a respect that Hannah had for her dad and wanted to listen to him. And I don't think it was thou shall not, and maybe it was, but it was, we love you and this is what we think's the best.

Okay, now I don't know where I got these questions.

That was kind of a hard one.

Yeah, it was. Well, here's, this is kind of the flip side of that. You seem to be more concerned, the writer says, with fathers protecting their daughters, should fathers protect their sons too?

You know, somebody should probably write a book on that, like sexual fidelity or something. Well, you have a son, I have a son, you have daughters, I have daughters. I want to protect all of them. And do I want to protect my son?

Yes, because short of trusting in Christ, the most important decision you'll ever make, and I'm not talking about decisional regeneration, so don't misunderstand me. Why would I not help him work through to make sure he's not thinking with his feelings or with his hormones or something else?

I would definitely help my son, and did, I think. We talked all the time, maybe talked about Hannah every day.

And you know, this really, this is not on my sheet, so hopefully it won't go too viral. But I mean, there seems to be this kind of, I think we see this at the church, and one of the reasons why I want to discuss how to sort of transition your kids from childhood to adulthood, sort of the discipleship relationship.

But there seems to be this kind of idea that at some point earlier in life, it's like, okay, you're in charge now. You are, you know, you're no longer a child, you're an adult. And for some people, it seems like it's 12, 13, 14 years old, and all of a sudden, the kid's on his own.

And I think, you know, I think back to my own life, and that pretty much was the reality from the time I was like 13 on. I was just kind of, you know, if my mom were here, she might disagree somewhat, but I was basically on my own.

You know, in so many respects, I was trusted to do things that I would not have trusted me to do. You know, I mean, I was just given so much responsibility for my own life that I don't think I was ready for.

And I think a lot of parents just want to hand that off to their kids because it's like, well, I don't really know what to do, so you do it, right? You finish the job. I started for, you know, 12 and a half years, and I'm done.

Steve, when it comes to parenting, I think the lazy way is the wrong way. And as you know, it takes a lot of work to be involved and to catch up and to be with your children, talking about them, their potential spouses, who they would like to date and everything else.

The easy way, the lazy way is just, you know, I've trained you for 18 years, now you make your own decision. I think the smarter way is, I've trained you for 18 years, and now let's transition from things like this.

Instead of me saying, you shouldn't do that and you can't, for me to say, you know, if I were you, I'd probably think about such and such. You know, my dad said once that such and such and such and such, and move from the hands-on parent to a parent who's kind of coaching and mentoring.

And, you know, I don't have to go in and do the play at the football thing. I tell you what to do and what I think is the best and send you in. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Okay, well, let me ask this easy question. What's the right age for dating?

Well, whatever age that is,.

I think it's about the right age for immersion baptism as a believer.

I think they kind of relate,.

Because we're going to get in trouble for this show one way or the other. Are we? Oh yeah, oh yeah, I can already tell. They're going to be sending us cases of the Message Bible after this. Dating. Well, in our home, and again, when you look at scripture, right, how do you make decisions?

Scripture, wisdom, desire. What does scripture say? Doesn't really say. What does wisdom say? Here's what wisdom says in the Ebenroth household. If you can't afford to have a wife, you shouldn't be dating.

So Luke, do you have a job where you have benefits and healthcare and you can live in your own place? Well, no, dad. Well, then you shouldn't be dating, because dating leads to things. And especially if not careful, dating leads to sex.

And you want to be very careful in that area. So I don't think you should date until you're ready to get married. And what I mean by getting ready to be married is a functional adult who has a job, right?

In the old days, you know what they did? They'd say, well, I don't have a job, but I have to win that girl. And even unbelieving dads of a daughter who is getting pursued would say, all right, you want the girl, get a job.

And so the guy would join the military and he'd automatically have housing and benefits and would get married.

Okay, but if you don't permit dating, then how are they gonna get to learn to communicate with the opposite sex?

What's that thing that you put on your head, the Microsoft thing, the orb?

Is that a Microsoft thing or the Facebook?

Oh, it must be Facebook or something.

Oh, well, Apple's got that one now too. What is it called? I think it's called In Your Face 2 or something.

Halo, orb, something, specter.

How will they interact?

Yeah, how will they learn? I've actually heard this question. Well, if you don't allow dating, then how are we going to get to know what we like and don't like? And how are we going to figure out what sort of person we should marry?

I know it's not quite apples to apples, but that's about as asinine as we better have sex before we get married to see if we're compatible.

It's like, what have we come to?

Well, I think there's lots of ways to integrate children, young children, adults, young adults, and adult children to get to know each other. And I think if they're living in a healthy family, not perfect, but healthy, they're involved with church people and other activities.

And one of my regrets, and I'm sure you'll chide me for it, is I wish I would have grown up learning how to ballroom dance, right? Because two generations ago, that's exactly what people did. They learned how to dance at school.

It was appropriate, it was proper. And you learn how to kind of have a mixer there at the hootenanny.

The barn.

Yeah, well, not all of us grew up in Nebraska.

The hootenanny.

You know what?

Sometimes we say when we do things wrongly, Schlock Bible Church, SBC. How about HBC, Hootenanny Bible Church? That's a real barn burner.

That's a name.

Steve, I think that's kind of a false canard, don't you? How am I going to know how to talk to girls if I don't date?

But I can promise you, there are people listening right now who've had that exact thing foisted upon them by their kids.

Dad, how am I ever going to learn how to talk to the opposite sex if you don't allow me to go on dates?

Would you ever say to someone who wanted to go on a date with you, or with your daughter, you could date me first?

I've never said that because I didn't want to give that impression.

I mean, let's head down to the gun range first, right? And get to know each other.

Well, I mean, I've probably said this before, but what I would do is I would meet with the guys and have coffee with them and just kind of tell me about yourself, tell me how the Lord saved you, kind of tell me what your goals are for the future, those kind of things.

And I think the first time I ever did that, I mean, I knew my daughter and this guy were not going to date because they were both seniors in high school, but she was like begging to go to the senior prom.

And I thought, I really don't want you to, but you tell me you're not interested in this guy, so I'm going to meet with him. You know, you just want to go and this is your excuse for going with this guy.

And I want to get to know him a little bit and then go, okay, I get what you're saying. This is not the guy for you and I can see why you're not interested, but I trust you enough to let you go. So I did.

Nice. Yeah.

I think once when I, I think I'm stricter in the past, but once Luke said to me when he was at university that he wanted to, I said, you know what? Just try not to be with girls alone, right? You know, it's just, if you're not around girls alone, then, you know, nothing's going to happen and et cetera.

And, you know, if somebody needs a ride or whatever, and I remember he said, I want to go to the Christmas concert at Grace Church from Masters University and there's a young lady that needs a ride. What do you think?

You know, cause we just would talk like that. And I'd say, do you think she's pretty? Would you like to go out with her? Are you attracted? He goes, no, she's just not my type. You know, he was careful not to say she was ugly because I'm sure she wasn't, but we're just friends.

I said, okay, then why not go, right? Because if you're not that attracted, then fine.

Then it's safe.

Yeah.

Do you think that there are any materials or resources for people out there who think how do I help my adult child navigate dating? I mean, where do we even point people these days? Certainly not to the hordes of no-go.

I don't know, because I think, you know, if you, and obviously there are no good secular sources because they're just altogether awful. But I really do think, I think the overlooked factor in all of this, and we're talking about it, is parents.

You know, and the church, I mean, if the parents don't know what to do, then I suppose they should probably talk to their pastors, their elders. But I think the worst thing we can do is just what most people do, which is turn the process over to the kids.

I think that is the most important thing that's been said today on this show. If you're listening today and you might disagree with some of our advice, the real issue is we want you involved as parents, as godly parents, and you'll probably figure out what to do.

Hebrews 12, verse 10, in the context of discipline, God disciplining, well, of course, our parents disciplined us, for they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness.

And so sometimes we just have to do what's best in our eyes. Not every man does right in his own eyes, but with godly counsel, prayer, studying the scriptures, and say, you know what, for our family right now, I think this might be the best.

Actually, I had, I probably heard this more than once, you know, the girls come to me and say, dad, you're never gonna let us get married. You know, no guy's ever gonna be good enough, kind of thing, and I remember just looking at her and going, hmm, I'll tell you what, on the day that you get married, I wanna be the second happiest man in the building, because if I'm the happiest man, something's gone terribly wrong.

Yeah.

Like I'm just getting rid of you, da-da-da. No, I want to be happy for you. I wanna, you know, I'm going to feel the sting of no longer having the same relationship with my daughter. I mean, we're still going to have a relationship.

It's just going to be different. But I want to think, boy, out of the whole world, this is the guy that I would, I mean, he's better than me. That was always my standard. I want a guy who's better than me, which wasn't that hard.

But I just wanted to feel like I could trust this guy, you know, and that's what I always wanted. And, you know, by the grace of God, we found that.

Well, when I think about dating, relationships, everything else, I'm just after parents involved, talking, working through things together, not trying to take the lazy way out, and then also trying to encourage our young adult children, like you just did, Steve.

You didn't say it in the show, but I'm sure you did it live. Trusting God, sovereignty, patiently waiting, using wisdom, the same decision-making process we use for other things. Should I take that job or should I not?

We can trust the Lord. Do you know what, dear daughter? Jesus loves you more than I do. And he'll give you everything you need and everything you want. And if he's giving you a desire for a husband and a family, my guess is he's going to give it to you in due time.

I have a daughter who's 25 and a daughter who's 23. Neither of them have a boyfriend or have ever had a serious boyfriend. And I think they'll both make great wives, but we just have to wait and trust the Lord.

So the focus goes back on the Lord being involved with people and especially your children, adult children, and not just let them figure out things on their own. I mean, I went out for a date and my dad said, I'm probably 16, he said, keep your nose clean.

I have no idea to this day what that meant.

I can extrapolate,.

But his dating advice was keep your nose clean. Does that mean don't get caught? Does that mean don't get her pregnant? Does that mean don't snort cocaine?

I have no idea.

But we would talk to our daughters about dating. Well, you know, let's see if he prays before the meal. Let's see if he picks up the check. Let's see if he opens the door for you. Let's see such and such.

And that's why it's important. And I know we're running overtime where you would date your daughters. I would date my daughters. So they would say, oh, when my dad took me on that date, he did such and such.

And this other young man didn't do it. My daughters have talked that way before.

Yeah, I mean, because I would date them. And I'm like, if he doesn't treat you at least as good as I do, you know, run for the exit, right? I mean, no way.

I'd never sit to my daughters on a date. Do you want to split the check?

Yeah.

I never left the cashier thing out there, the bill to see if she would reach over for it.

Kind of seen if she was, you know.

I would pray.

Why don't we pray? Right, short little prayers, fine. Anyway, and I would tell them how beautiful they are, how pretty they are, all that kind of stuff. And then some other dweeb comes along and then does nothing.

They're going to go, what?

And, you know, always having fun. I just really enjoyed being a dad, especially as they got older. And, you know, I would always look to have fun with them. And so, you know, I mean, just imagine she's out with some guy and goes, well, he was OK, but he wasn't as much fun as my dad.

That'd have to be a DQ right there.

My daughter Maddie wrote me a nice Father's Day card last year. And I have it up by my mirror when I get dressed in the morning because it said something to the effect of, you've kind of spoiled me, Dad, because I don't think I could find anybody that I could love more than you or something like that.

And I thought, even now when I think about it, I want to cry. But she will. She'll find somebody that loves her more and who's funnier and everything else. At least he has hair.

We can pray for that.

I know. So today on No Compromise Radio, Steve and I, this was probably our least like Bible verse one. So people are probably going to say, well, you didn't have any Bible verses today.

Yes, I thought we had a couple.

We laid down the law with no compromise.

The hordes.

You know what?

You hordes of no-co don't deserve sometimes what we give you.

Grace, grace, grace.

Grace.