The Forgotten Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and Jehovah's Witnesses

Diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 602 274 1360. That's 602 274 1360 or if you're out of the

Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's one eight eight eight five five zero thirteen sixty That's one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty and now with today's topic.

Here's James White And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line, my name is James White We're live in studio today on this beautiful warm Saturday afternoon in Phoenix And we welcome you if you're listening on kpxq or if you're listening live via the

Internet We have many people who do that or maybe you're even listening by archive off of the straight gate comm

However, it is that you've come to be listening to us today We welcome you and hope God's best for you this day or whatever day you end up listening this you could be listening this ten

Years from now for all I know but we welcome you to the program today how do you give an answer for the faith that is within you and Especially how do you deal with the one topic that many

Christians and they shy away from it? They don't necessarily want to talk about it for a very simple reason and that is they feel

Uncomfortable in giving a reason for their faith in the Trinity Why do you believe in the

Trinity and how can you explain it to others and do so with sufficient confidence

That you won't dodge the many opportunities that come up I wrote a book a number of years ago now called the forgotten

Trinity and in that book I talked about the fact that we need to love

Love God's truth about the doctrines of Trinity. That is we hear people talking about loving justification or loving the

Bible or Loving the inspiration of Scripture loving the cross There's all these things like that But you rarely hear people talking about loving the

Trinity and the reason is because most people do not Understand they have not been taught properly what the doctrine of the

Trinity is and why it is that if you hold the Bible in your hand and you Believe the Bible to be the

God -breathed Scriptures to be a revelation from God that you must be a

Biblical Trinitarian that you cannot hold a Bible in one hand and say I believe this

I believe all of this and I believe only this as my rule of faith and At the other hand say

I don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity the reason that Christians Believe in the doctrine of the

Trinity is not because some church forces them to it's not because someone holds a gun to their head and says believe it the reason that Christians believe in the

Trinity is because it's the only way to believe all of Scripture in other words

If you reject the doctrine of the Trinity then what I can show you is that there are truths in Scripture that you are

Denying and if you believe everything that the Bible has to say you will believe in the doctrine of the

Trinity Well first and foremost, what is the doctrine of the Trinity? Well, I like to offer the following as a brief definition

Within the one being that is God there exists eternally three co -equal and co -eternal persons

Namely the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit now you might say a doctrine that can be defined in one sentence

Certainly can't be that difficult to discuss and to understand But obviously everything in that definition that I read you is very purposeful and comes from the pages of Scripture Let me repeat it for you again

Within the one being that is God there exists eternally three co -equal and co -eternal persons

Namely the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit Now the single most often repeated error the single most often repeated thing that causes

Confusion in regards to the doctrine the Trinity is that people do not understand the difference between the words being in person

They do not understand that the word being does not mean the same thing as the word person

We don't use it that way Normally, we recognize that anything that exists has being a chair has being a rock has being anything that exists has being

But not everything is a person Not everything is personal a chair or a rock has being but is not personal

You can insult chairs and rocks all you want. They won't care. They don't mind Because they have no personhood to them.

And so when we speak of the doctrine the Trinity we're saying there is one What the being of God and three who's the

Father the Son and the Holy Spirit now? Why is it that Christians have come to understand this and to believe this?

well many people suggest They believe that because the Council of Nicaea got together and came up with some new doctrine and forces on everybody

Well, that just simply isn't true. That is not historically the case That is not to the case when you look at the people who lived before the

Council of Nicaea You can find all sorts of references to a belief in the deity of Christ Which was the main issue of the

Council of Nicaea. We may have time to look at some of that later on It simply is not the case that Constantine the

Roman Emperor came along and said well I think y 'all should believe this and I'll use the force of the army to force you that it's not the case

Why was it that even after the Council of Nicaea when those who denied the deity of Christ through political

Machinations and other ways became very prevalent in the society. Why was it that even after the

Council of Nicaea? people like Athanasius Continued to believe in the deity of Christ fought for the deity of Christ What was the basis upon which they did it?

They did it on the basis of the Word of God and that is the main issue.

We need to look at now. I Said a little bit earlier on that if you hold the Bible in one hand and say

I believe all of this You cannot on the other hand say I do not believe in the biblical doctrine of the

Trinity Why is that? Well because the doctrine of the Trinity flows from three biblical foundations three biblical truths that form the very foundation essence and heart of the doctrine of the

Trinity and if you're a Christian today and you want to be ready to give an answer for your the hope that's within you and you want to have confidence in Responding to those who would say oh

Jesus is just a prophet or or Jesus is just a creation or the Holy Spirit's not really

A person how would you give an answer to someone who would ask? Well, I strongly suggest that you do not start where many people would like you to start

That is we don't believe in the doctrine of Trinity because of some philosophy We don't believe in the doctrine of Trinity because there's some

Philosophical necessity for us to do so Instead my suggestion to you the believer is that all of the conversation the doctrine the

Trinity Should find its root and its source in the pages of Scripture itself most the time when

I see people who In in one way or the other have gone astray. They've they've lost confidence in their foundation

The reason is because they have left that firm foundation of Scripture and they have gotten themselves involved with all sorts of philosophical speculations and quite simply the philosophies of men are not a sufficient foundation for Christian truth and Christian proclamation and so we need to stay in the pages of Scripture.

Well, what are those three foundations? What are those three areas that we have to look at to understand scriptural truth?

well First and foremost we must realize and this is where the

Bible comes into direct contradiction With the LDS faith with the LDS Church The first and formal foundation of the doctrine of the

Trinity is that there is only one true God Monotheism a belief that there is only one true

God the doctrine the Trinity is Monotheistic there is only one being of God.

There are not three beings of God There are not ten beings of God. There are not billions and billions of beings of God there is only one being of God and the scriptures are clear and replete in their testimony to absolute biblical monotheism

We must recognize that any system of teaching that compromises that very teaching is

A system that at its heart and root cannot possibly be Christian now.

There are variations of monotheism their variations that people like to present for example

The opposite of monotheism is polytheism a belief in more than one God that there are maybe more than one equal gods or maybe there's

Various gradations amongst the gods but in essence the idea that there is more than one being that is

God but then there's a sort of middle route called he no theism and he no theism is that there's one main

God and then there are sort of sub gods below him and He no theism may take various and sundry forms and some people might believe that there is a major God And and then there are minor gods who might differ in their being or substance, but they're still gods

And so he no theism is sort of between polytheism and monotheism

And I would submit that there are various systems out there that are that are better called He no theistic than anything else and we might get into those a little bit later on but first and foremost one true and eternal

God The great confession of every Jewish person the days of Christ was the

Shema Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh Israel Yahweh is

One Yahweh is our God and that issue of oneness

Will take us to the last point a little bit later on because there are those who want to take that and say well

Not only is God one in his being but God's one in his person too And they're the ones who will say that Jesus is the father and the father is the son and the son is the spirit and all the rest of stuff and that's not

What the biblical doctrine the Trinity states at all But the first foundation the first foundation that must be established in Scripture is there is only one

True God and that is why some like to go to John chapter 17 and says well

Jesus says there's only one true God and and he differentiates between the father and himself and that means Jesus can't possibly be

God But in reality Jesus is a monotheist he recognizes there is only one true

God and you have to allow the whole passage to speak as to whether he excludes himself from the category of Deity when we look at that particular passage

What's the second foundation the first foundation monotheism? There is only one true

God the second foundation There are three divine persons

Three divine persons father son and Holy Spirit. They are differentiated from one another

The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that the father is the son

It does not teach that the son is the spirit. It does not teach that the spirit is the father three divine persons

One divine being three divine persons that share that one divine being

Just as I as a human being am one person sharing one being since the being of God is unlimited and eternal and Cannot be divided up nor can it be limited in any way three divine persons sharing one divine being

Now How does the scripture reveal this well very clearly Jesus said the father is greater than I am

Jesus prayed to the father the father and the son Send the Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus.

You have the father speaking from heaven It is the son the incarnate son who's being baptized the spirit descending in the form of a dove the scriptures clearly differentiate between the father the son and the spirit and Jesus himself said to the father in his prayer in John chapter 17

Glorify me together with yourself with the glory Which I had in your presence before the world began here is one divine person speaking to another divine person

Clearly the Bible differentiates between the father the son and the spirit Now the problem of course is

That many people when they attack the doctrine of the Trinity misrepresent this very issue they misrepresent what the

Bible teaches on this very issue an attempt to confuse people and Say well the doctrine the

Trinity is saying that Jesus is the father and yet There's all these places that differentiate between them. We are not saying that at all

We are not saying that Jesus is the father when we say Jesus is God. We're speaking to Jesus's nature not to his identity as a person and many people will play on that will say well

You recognize that God's the father, right? Well, yes, there is the phrase God the father and yet you're saying

Jesus God that means you make him the father No, we're talking about when one sense we're talking about God the father as who he is and then we talk about Jesus we're talking about what he is who and what are two different things and So many people have been so brainwashed to ignore that distinction that they cause

Tremendous confusion in others when they try to discuss this issue and their entire groups that train their people to create confusion

By ignoring the difference between what and who the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in their literature and hence their people as they speak will constantly create confusion by failing to distinguish between whether you're talking about someone's name who they are or What someone is?

We all recognize the difference when we are Looking at someone we recognize they're a human being and then we want to know who they are

What they are and who they are two different things and yet you'll find Literature produced by the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and others the Mormon Church does the exact same thing they specifically want to confuse both their followers and those they're seeking to proselytize on this particular issue by ignoring the difference between what and who now as a

Result, there's a tremendous amount of confusion when we get to the issue of the incarnation

The incarnation who is it that became flesh John 1 14 says the word became flesh and dwelt among us

Who is it that became flesh? Well, it wasn't the father Nor was it the son? I'm sorry the spirit

It was the son that became flesh the word became flesh not the father not the spirit

It is one divine person who became flesh as the person Jesus Christ and that divine person differentiate himself from the father and So many people get be very very confused me

Well, was it the father who became flesh and was it the spirit who became flesh? No, the scriptures teach that was the son who became flesh the incarnation was one divine person taking on that human form and dwelling amongst us as the

God man Jesus Christ and As the God man Jesus Christ, who would we expect the incarnate one to be we expect him be an atheist

We expect him to not worship the father who is not incarnate who is still in heaven

Well, of course, he would worship the father He is a perfect man a perfect man will worship and so people will almost always base their objections the doctrine the

Trinity on the statements of Jesus when he says things like Worship the father or when he's shown praying to the father when he says the father is greater than I am all of those things refer to the incarnate son and flow from a recognition that he is

Truly man merely look like he was a man. He is truly truly man

Now what's the third foundation of the doctrine the Trinity? We've seen two so far Monotheism there is only one true

God the second foundation There are three divine persons the father the son and the spirit we can we can differentiate between them

Because it is the father who is decreed all thing It's things it's the son who has taken on flesh as Jesus Christ And it is the spirit who comes into the church and comes into the life of the believer

To sanctify him and to direct him and to give him insight And so in light of all those things there is a one foundation monotheism the second foundation three divine persons revealed in Scripture and the third foundation

Those divine persons are co -equal and co -eternal co -equal and co -eternal

Well, what does that mean? Does that mean that Jesus Christ in a fleshly existence has always existed?

No The Son entered into flesh at a point in time in the past But the point is is that the relationship between father son and spirit has eternally existed

The father has eternally existed as a divine person The son has eternally existed as a divine person the spirit has eternally existed as a divine person they are co -equal and co -eternal as to their being and What's the major denial here?

Well, of course Jehovah's Witnesses deny that the son has eternally existed. In fact, they deny the spirits even a person

So they're all over this point denying the deity of Christ denying the personality of the

Holy Spirit But much of the confusion when you're not dealing with that particular perspective comes from the fact that people when they hear of the equality of the persons think that that must mean that the persons are indistinguishable from one another and So they go the pages of New Testament they see well, well look all through the

New Testament you see the father taking one role in salvation and Then you see the son voluntarily taking another role.

In fact, the son submits himself to the father The son is the one sent by the father and the son voluntarily makes himself nothing and the spirit

Voluntarily is the one sent by the father and the son and he indwells us and and he doesn't point to himself

But he literally points away from himself to the son and to the father and since they take different roles.

Well, that must mean that they are not equal with one another and The confusion is this

The equality that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches is That each one is co -equal and co -eternal as to their participation in the divine nature in The being that is

God It does not teach That they are equal in the roles that they take in the redemption of mankind

That is we recognize in the Bible that they take different roles and that the son voluntarily submits himself to the father and So it is not an argument against the doctrine of the

Trinity when someone says well Look, the son enters into human flesh and he he

Voluntarily lays aside the exercise of certain divine prerogatives

He veils himself in human flesh and only in that one time on the

Mount of Transfiguration His is his real glory as a divine person seen by his disciples

But if you walked along a dusty road in Galilee and ran into Jesus in the twelve apostles

You wouldn't be amazed about the fact that here's a group of 13 men walking along and one of them glows as bright as noonday

No, that's not how it was You could have walked right past Jesus and the

Apostle band and never Recognized that one of them was in fact the creator in incarnate form

Only in that one instance and only with those three apostles with him Did his glory truly shine through in the presence of the father there on the

Mount of Transfiguration and so you need to recognize and and really as you share the gospel and especially as you as you deal with Jehovah's Witnesses and you deal with Mormons and you deal with oneness

Pentecostals and you you deal with all the variations and sometimes run into folks who Seemingly have picked up baggage from every one of those groups and they're so confused they don't know which ends up as you're dealing with those individuals one of the most common things you'll encounter is

That their arguments or their confusions. Sometimes they're just confused primarily come from certain presuppositions or certain misunderstandings the doctrine of the

Trinity and they primarily come from arguments based on assuming that if the

Father and the Son and the Spirit are Co -equal as to their participation in the divine being that must mean that we can not differentiate between them and if we can't if We can differentiate between the

Father and the Son especially that means from their perspective that the

Son cannot truly be God and So when they see the Son enter into human flesh and take the form of a servant bingo

That's it. He can't truly be God because he's taking a different role than the father what they don't seem to realize is that the presupposition they're operating on is that God cannot enter into human flesh and They're also a functioning on the assumption of Unitarianism that if there's one being of God There must be only one person of God as well that Presupposition that assumption lies behind 85 to 90 percent of all the objections the doctrine of the

Trinity When you're talking with Jehovah's Witnesses you dig through any statement they make and it'll always come back always come back to the assumption on their part of Unitarianism that Jehovah can only be one person that the being of Jehovah is so limited

That is impossible Impossible for there to be three persons that share that one being that is

Jehovah. That's the assumption And you have to keep reminding them. We have to go to Scripture We must go to Scripture and realize that Scripture itself shows us one name

Jehovah that one name Yahweh is used of the Father the Son and the

Spirit and yet those same scriptures differentiate between those persons and Therefore that's why

Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. And so you must learn to hear these Assumptions hear these things that have been so crammed into people's minds that they no longer even question them and In fact, they no longer even see when a scriptural passage refutes that assumption that is theirs

We must learn to see these things and to be able to minister these folks and show how their own reasoning is circular

It's not coming out of Scripture. It's not saying well, what does Scripture teach does Scripture teachers only one true eternal

God Jehovah? Yes Does Scripture differentiate between the Father the Son and the

Holy Spirit? Yes Does the Scripture teach us that the

Father the Son and the Spirit share that one divine name? Share that one divine being

Yes Well, how do we understand those things? Well, that's what the doctrine of the Trinity is all about we are forced to believe in the doctrine the

Trinity by the weight of all of Scripture and Any passage that we go to we must keep in mind that the person with whom we're speaking

Must deal with the same biblical evidence that we are That is when someone comes to you and says well

Jesus can't truly be God because he says in John 14 28. The Father is greater than I am

Well immediately we recognize certain assumptions there certain assumptions that the

Son could not voluntarily take a Role of submission to the Father in redemption.

Why not? we also recognize the assumption of Unitarianism and then we need to always turn the question back around and say

Who do you say Jesus Christ is if you're a Jehovah's Witness and you say that Jesus Christ is

Michael the Archangel Then let's ask ourselves could Michael the

Archangel say the things that Jesus says in John chapter 14 Yes, he could certainly say the

Father is greater than I am however What's the rest of John 14 28 say?

Jesus has just told the disciples that he's going back into the presence of the

Father and he says you should have rejoiced When I told you I was going back into the presence of the

Father because the Father is greater than I am Well, what would make the disciples rejoice if Michael if Jesus was

Michael the Archangel? Why should they rejoice that Michael the Archangel is just going back to the position he had before What is it about being in the presence of the

Father? That's so special Well does not the Bible tell us Did not

Jesus in his high priestly prayer in John chapter 17 say glorify me

Father with the glory which I Shared with you, which I had in your presence before the world began

The reason the disciples were to rejoice Was to they were to recognize that Jesus was going back to the glorious position

He had before as Michael the Archangel Would Michael the Archangel? Say to Jehovah God using the imperative voice the the the voice of command in the

Greek language glorify me Would any angel ever stand in the presence of God and say glorify me

Well, yeah one Lucifer Yeah, he was cast down for remember

No The angels we see in Isaiah chapter 6 they cover their face in the glory in the presence of the glory of God and yet Jesus says glorify me with the glory which

I shared with you. That's not some derivative glory That is the very glory of God.

It is a divine glory If Jesus is Michael the Archangel he could never say the words of John 17 5 without committing blasphemy and so we must always turn the question back around and say

Jesus is Michael the Archangel, huh? So we're to be baptized in a of Jehovah God Michael the

Archangel and an impersonal active force When Matthew 28 says were to be baptized the name of the

Father Son Holy Spirit Michael the Archangel says I am the way the truth in the life.

No man comes the father but by me Michael the Archangel says before Abraham was born

I am I Don't think so. No, we must be ready to turn those issues around.

Well, I've gone a little bit long We're gonna take a break and come back and continue talking about the subject of the doctrine of the

Trinity here on the dividing line We'll be right back You Line my name is

James white we're talking about the doctrine of the Trinity today, but I have been reminded That we need to mention

There's a little bit of a change in the format of how we do things during the week.

Some of you who access our web page Know that we have been Open from 1 to 5 p .m.

In the afternoon and that is now change to a 10 a .m To 5 p .m.

I believe is what the website says And that means that you have many more hours now during the day to call rich up and to ask him any question that you've ever had about any even remotely biblical topic whatsoever and He will be more than happy to get you on the line

No, actually That is is a new thing for us and that is that rich is available

Full -time now that also means that There are more needs in the ministry as far as support goes we don't talk about that very often, but simple fact matter is we are a small ministry and bringing a second person on in the full -time capacity does

Put a strain on resources. And so we would remind you that no, we're not sitting around There's a bunch of millionaires and just do this for the fun of it.

We're a small ministry We don't like to talk about financial issues on the air but we would let you know that we are supported by individuals and by a small number of them for that matter, so We would invite you to support the work if you found it to be useful and you found it to be of benefit to you

And you can now get hold of us from 10 a .m To 5 p .m To order things and to get clarification on issues and stuff like that and no generally rich will not put me on the phone

Because I would never get anything done whatsoever If I were to do that type of thing, we're looking at the doctrine of the

Trinity today and I want to read you the words of an ancient

Christian an ancient Christian who lived Almost two centuries

Well a century and a half. Okay century and a half prior to the Council of Nicaea and Listen to what this ancient preacher preached when he preached upon the subject of the passion of Christ and the

Passover and So he was lifted up upon a tree and an inscription was attached indicating who was being killed

Who was it? It is a grievous thing to tell but a most fearful thing to refrain from telling but listen as you tremble before him on Whose account the earth trembled?

He who hung the earth in place is hanged He who fixed the heavens in place is fixed in place

He who made all things fast is made fast on a tree The sovereign is insulted

God is murdered The king of Israel is destroyed by an

Israelite hand This is the one who made the heavens and the earth and for mankind in the beginning

The one proclaimed by the law and the prophets the one enfleshed in a virgin The one hanged on a tree

The one buried in the earth the one raised from the dead and who went up into the heights of heaven

The one sitting at the right hand of the father the one having all authority to judge and save Through whom the father made the things which exist from the beginning of time

This one is the Alpha and the Omega This one at the beginning in the end the beginning indescribable and the end

Incomprehensible this one is the Christ. This one is the king. This one is Jesus. This one is the leader

This one is the Lord. This one is the one who rose from the dead This one is the one sitting on the right hand of the father

He bears the father and is born by the father to him be the glory and the power forever

Amen That was Milito of Sardis Milito of Sardis was a bishop around 180 so here long before the

Council of Nicaea We have Milito teaching the two natures of Christ Teaching the deity of Christ teaching the relationship that exists between the father and the son

He says he bears the father and is born by the father. There's this relationship that exists between the two

How can that be? If in point of fact the doctrine of the Trinity is something that came along So much later that no one really truly believed until forced to believe it by by Constantine Well, obviously that's not the case whatsoever instead we see the very same kind of doctrine found in Scripture and it is so common a possession of The Christian people that Paul when he writes the

Corinthians and he closes his second letter says the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the

Holy Spirit be with you all well, where does grace come from is not grace divine and yet he refers to the grace of the

Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and The fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

These are divine things coming from a divine source and all through the scriptures. You'll find this

Trinitarian thinking the grace of Christ or the grace of the father they can be Interchanged not because the father and the son can be interchanged but because both are a source of divine grace

The fellowship of the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is associated with the father and the son with such ease

There would be so improper and so wrong if in point of fact the

Holy Spirit is some inferior creature or as some people teach an impersonal active force

And so you see as we go to the scriptures we see over and over and over again the testimony

To the doctrine the Trinity because we see each of the foundations firmly taught in Scripture monotheism taught in the fact that God has eternally been

God Psalm 90 verse 2 says before the mountains are brought forth Wherever that's formed the earth in the world even from everlasting to everlasting

Thou art God God has eternally been God and he is the only true

God He says I know of no other gods in Isaiah chapter 44 Over and over again between Isaiah chapter 40 and 48.

We are reminded of the truth that Jehovah God knows of no other gods We're not he no theists and Jehovah isn't a he no theist.

He knows of no other Deities no other gods all other gods are merely idols

And the New Testament repeats this the New Testament is the continuing revelation of God. It's not some contradictory document to the

Old Testament the faith of the Old Testament continues in the new and So we have repeated that there's only one true

God Paul when he writes the Corinthians and in 1st Corinthians He he recognizes that there are people who don't know this they lived in a culture where there were various and sundry

False gods there were all sorts of polytheists running around But he says in 1st

Corinthians chapter 8 he says therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed idols We know there is no such thing as an idol in the world.

There is no God but one Idols don't represent true gods There is no

God but one for even if there are so -called gods Paul says in 1st Corinthians 8 5

Whether in heaven or on earth as indeed there many so -called gods many so -called

Lords but to us there is but one God the Father from who are all things and we exist for him and One Lord Jesus Christ by whom were all things and we exist through him

But he says however not all men have this knowledge in verse 7 not everyone knows there's only one true

God and not everyone knows how God has revealed himself as The father he has revealed himself in the

Son and now through the Spirit he indwells his church not all men have this knowledge

Paul says and so we have the clear testimony of the fact there's only one true God and Yet we have clearly revealed to us in Scripture the teaching that yes

The Father is God and yet Jesus Christ is described as God over and over again And it's just here that people have to find such imaginative ways to get around such clear language such imaginative ways most of you know for example

John chapter 1 in the beginning was the word and words with God in the word was God My goodness how people can find ways around the clear teaching of Scripture at a passage like that even though it goes on to say that that word became flesh and then describes that word as the unique God who's in the bosom of the father who's revealed the father to us in John 1 18 and That same one then describes himself as being before Abraham in John 8 58.

He receives worship and In John 20 28 when one of his disciples says my

Lord and my God. He doesn't rebuke him instead he accepts that worship and Applauds the faith that was his even though he recognizes there's a greater faith the faith that does not have to see the physical evidence, but believes and This is the deity of Christ in the

Gospels We have references the deity of Christ in Paul where he says that in Jesus Christ in Colossians 2 9 all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form in bodily form all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form that the

Resurrected Jesus Christ and there are those who teach that Jesus Christ was resurrected merely in a spiritual form

Paul never believed that he says that all the fullness of deity dwells currently dwells present tense in bodily form in the resurrected

Lord Jesus Christ Not just a portion of deity, but all the fullness of deity dwells in him and so some groups like the

Watchtower Society It's too plain. It's too clear that it's mistranslated. It is mistranslate the

Greek term They just can't deal with what the Bible the Bible clearly teaches there But of course

Paul had already taught that it was by Jesus Christ that all things were created and for Jesus Christ that all things

Were created can you really believe? That it was Paul's theology That everything in the universe was created for and in Michael the

Archangel That's what people have to believe when they follow a man -made system

That all things are created for Michael the Archangel no Obviously not all things are created for the glory of God and so since Colossians chapter 1 clearly tells us for by him

Referring to Jesus Christ were all things made whether in heaven and earth visible or invisible

We're principalities powers dominions or authorities all things are created by him and for him

And he is before all things and in him all things exist That's clearly a description of the

Creator God Not merely Michael the Archangel and so the references the deity of Christ are clear

Philippians chapter 2 Colossians chapter 1 Colossians chapter 2 John 20 28

He's described as our great God and Savior in Titus 2 our God and Savior in 2nd Peter 1 1

All through scripture the writers are unafraid to use terminology of Jesus Christ that could not be used of a creature and then when they bring the

Holy Spirit in and Connect him with the Father and with the Son in a way that no mere creature could ever be connected

We see why it is that those early Christians believed in the deity of Christ And why the doctrines of Trinity is what we need to believe we're gonna take another break

We've got some phone callers coming in and we'll be answering your questions on the doctrine of Trinity right after this timeout

Welcome back to dividing line. My name is James white We're talking about the doctrine of the Trinity today And we do have a caller

Jim's calling from England and rich tells me that the the line simply isn't good enough to be able to put him on But the question that's being asked on the cross when

Christ became sin on our behalf Was there a separation in the

Trinity since the father cannot look upon sin? Well, I think it's a mistake a misunderstanding of the phrase look upon sin

Though it is very very common For this particular type of preaching to be done and and frequently done by by very very very good expositors of the word

But when it says look upon sin, it means to look upon sin with favor Obviously God knows all the sins of men.

He doesn't close his eyes when someone commits sin So the specific applications across normally is that around the

Easter time you hear people preaching? Well What happens when Jesus says?

Eli, Eli, Lama Sabbath and I my god my god why have you forsaken me is that there is a separation between the

Father and the Son and the the Father turns his back upon the Son and As a result of the

Son is is left alone. Well, I addressed that particular issue specifically

Matthew 2746 in the Forgotten Trinity and I said that that passage has come in for many kinds of interpretation

Unfortunately, many of the theories have compromised the Bible's teaching in the nature of the relationship between the

Father and the Son The father was never separated from or abandoned the Son The truth is clear from many sources

Jesus uses the second person was speaking of to the father He says why have you forsaken me rather than why did he forsake me as if the father is no longer present?

Immediately on the heels this statement Jesus speaks the father. He says father into your hands I commit my spirit showing no sense of separation whatsoever

What else whatever else Jesus was saying? He was not saying that at the very time of his ultimate obedience to the father the father abandoned him

Rather, it seems much more logical to see this as a quotation of Psalm 22 Psalm 22 begins with that for that passage my god my god

Why have you forsaken me that is meant to call to mind all of that Psalm? Which would include the victory of verses 19 and follow following as well as verse 24

Which states for he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted neither has he hidden his face from him?

But when he cried to him for help he heard and so while it is very common

For individuals to preach it along those lines I don't think that there is a biblical basis to believe that there is this this separation that takes place

Now let's let's see here who we have on hold here hmm

Let's let's start with Bill in Phoenix. Hi Bill. How are you? Go ahead with your question

Can you be a true Christian and not believe in the Trinity? Well, that's a very very common question and I believe that a true

Christian will believe God's Word now Let me explain something there.

I believe that there are individuals who due to ignorance may be due to a misunderstanding might have hold to misunderstandings about the doctrine of the

Trinity and that They are yet true believers. I think the difference between a person who has a misunderstanding of the doctrine the

Trinity because none of us can claim Absolute perfect knowledge even of the most basic elements of God's existence.

For example, God has eternally been God Well, I can't understand eternity So if we recognize our finitude, we cannot make the the standard

Perfection of understanding I make the standard willingness to believe God's Word And so if we go from that direction, then we have to recognize that there can be people who have

Misunderstandings who out of their ignorance do not have a proper and full understanding the doctrine the Trinity who are yet heirs of grace

What becomes an issue is when a person will stubbornly refuse to accept what the

Word of God says preferring to believe the teachings of an organization or Individual over what the

Bible teaches that shows a rebellion against God's truth That is not something that the regenerate heart is going to do

And so I think if we in the church are doing what we need to do in teaching and preaching the

Word of God boldly not being fearful of Offending people then we will be bringing these issues out and training people in the way that they should go and understand

And that this an individual then would come to know that truth and embrace that truth But it's that stubborn rebellion to and resistance against the truth that causes the problem

Furthermore when Jesus said to the Jews unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins

I think there is another element we need to understand and that is we cannot be saved by a false

Jesus and if the teaching that we've been exposed to Presents to us of Jesus Christ other than scripture that Jesus Christ cannot save the

Jews to whom Jesus spoke in John 8 24 We're standing no farther away from him Then if you or I were talking to one another right now face -to -face and Yet Jesus was able to look them in the eye and say unless you believe that I am

You will die in your sins. They obviously believed he was a man They would have even accepted him as a prophet maybe even as the

Messiah But in point of fact, they would not accept him for who he truly was and Jesus said you will die in your sins

Does that answer your question? Sure does. All righty. Well, thank you for calling today. Thank you. God bless. Bye.

Bye Let's talk to Pierre all the way up in Ottawa, Canada.

Hi Pierre. Hello. How are you doing? Real good? Good. I'm just calling because I want to just get your opinion on what?

the Jews at the time of Jesus Would have understood about something about the doctrine of the

Trinity in terms of Would they have accepted so I mean obviously they didn't seem to accept the claim that he was

God But many Jews apparently did and Just want to know like as evidence from writings like the

Targums where it talks about God as being three and one Just want to know what your opinion is on Jewish belief in the

Trinity before the time of Christ Well, there's been a lot written on that Hengstenberg's work on Christ in the

Old Testament I think touches on a little bit of that but I would say that the greatest revelation the real revelation the doctrine of the

Trinity takes place between The Old and the New Testaments in the incarnation of Christ and the coming of the

Holy Spirit so while you can find elements of Intertestamental Judaism where for example the word becomes almost hypostasized as a person and you can find references to an almost a

Differentiation between God and his word and and a divine nature to the word and things like that I don't know if that's an overly fertile ground to go to I think that the early church certainly

Drew from issues like that, but primarily I think when we when we talk about intertestamental

Judaism You had a number of different viewpoints that were presented there and the problem is

Some people will go to later Jewish writings that are come after Christ try to find parallels there

And I think anything after the time of Christ given the very soon and early

Conflict that took place between Judaism and Christianity that is even recorded in the

New Testament itself In the writings of Paul and things like that color Greatly the later writings whether it's the

Mishnah the Gamara put together the Talmud so on so forth We we need to be very

I think careful in trying to reconstruct what the Jews of Jesus day believed and what they didn't believe and so The the real the real issue

I think would have been for the Jewish person. What were the prophecies concerning Christ? What did they say concerning Christ?

and when you go back into looking at passages like Isaiah 9 6 and Isaiah 7 14 and the use in Isaiah 9 of The phraseology

El Gabor mighty God and that that very same you word is used phrase is used of Jehovah God only one chapter later

The descriptions of what the Messiah would do and the issue of the resurrection and all the rest that stuff

I think that's really the the solid ground upon which a person stands in dealing with that. Can I just ask one more question?

Yeah, really quickly. Okay. Do you think that? the I am a theology of John is

Is more related to Greek philosophy or do I don't believe it is but do you think that it is and no no, it's it

I would say that these the foundation of a go -i -me the I am in John 8 24 8 58 13 19 and 18 5 through 6 primarily find their fruition and in the

Hebrew phrase on a who In primarily in the book of Isaiah and that thereby are transported back to Exodus chapter 3

So that's that's a real biblical basis there. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. God bless And no that applause is not for me

That That's just telling us that we're out of time for this particular edition of the dividing line.

Thank you for being with us I hope that those of you who by God's grace have come to understand his truth are encouraged

That you might take the time to share with those who may become to your door for Jehovah's Witnesses with the

Mormon missionaries with the oneness Pentecostals whoever it might be to understand the scriptures understand what the

Word of God says and be bold in your Proclamation of this truth we live in a day where Trinity Broadcasting Network and others are in essence

Destroying confidence in the Trinity by saying it's not important But we need to stand against that trend because we love the

Word of God and we love what it says Thanks for being with us here on the dividing line. We'll be back again next week here on the dividing line

I hope would be with us listening and learning from God's Word. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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