February 17, 2016 show with Jeffrey D. Johnson on his book “The Church: Why Bother? The Nature, Purpose & Functions of the Local Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the 17th day of February 2016.

And we have a very important topic today because there can be few other things more important in the

Christian life than the church that Jesus Christ shed his blood for.

Today we're talking about a new book by my friend Jeffrey D. Johnson titled,

The Church, Why Bother? You've probably met a lot of people who think that the church is really not that important.

Perhaps they only go to church or attend a worship service on Easter and Christmas, perhaps

Mother's Day, or perhaps they bounce from church to church to church and never really commit to the authority of the leadership of any of them.

Well, we're going to be talking about the importance of the local church today, as I said, with Jeffrey D.

Johnson, and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Jeffrey D.

Johnson. Thanks Chris, it's good to be back. And for those of our listeners who have never heard

Jeff on the show before, or they are unfamiliar with him, he is founder of Free Grace Press, and he's a pastor at Grace Bible Church in Conway, Arkansas, and we're discussing this book that has received a lot of accolades from some very important figures.

Let me read some of them. John MacArthur, who I'm sure is no stranger to our listeners, says,

This excellent book shines clear light of scripture on those and many other questions.

And the question is, the church, why bother? Obviously. Since Christ loved the church enough to die for her, every believer ought to share that passion.

Jeffrey Johnson clearly does, and I believe you will find his enthusiasm contagious. Voddie Balkam, who many of you may be familiar with through his writing and through his conference appearances, and he is now a part of a reformed seminary in Zambia, Africa.

But Voddie Balkam says, Jeffrey Johnson offers a concise, sobering, and eye -opening message for a generation in need of ecclesiological reformation.

Johnson addresses the issues we face today and roots them in their historical theological context.

Mark Dever, who many of our listeners are familiar with through his nine Marks Ministries, he's also pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC.

He writes, Jeffrey Johnson has written a book on the church that is short enough to read right now, clear enough to be understood, and important enough to help many of us follow

Jesus Christ as he intended, as members of his church. Why not read it now?

And finally, Dr. Joel Beakey, a friend of mine who's been on this program many times, he is the president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

He writes, Jeffrey Johnson strips away layers of human tradition and worldly wise philosophy to restore our view of the church to its biblical simplicity.

In this book, the church shines. And as I said, that was Dr. Joel Beakey. And so with the accolades of men like that, this is obviously a book well worth picking up and investigating, and a program well worth hearing.

In fact, why don't you take this time to quickly text or email or call your family, friends, and loved ones, especially if they are not a member of a church or have a lackadaisical attitude about the church, or you just believe that they should know about this broadcast, and have them tune in wherever they live on the planet

Earth to ironsharpensironradio .com. In the foreword of this book,

Dr. Richard Belcher wrote, this is the day and age of lawlessness and looseness, both outside of God's church and inside as well.

How heartbreaking, yet how true everywhere we look these days, it seems. There are churches gathering in the name of Jesus Christ that more clearly resemble the sinfulness of the unbelieving,

Christ -rejecting world than the Lord and Savior who purchased His beloved church with His death and atoning blood.

Today, more than ever, is a clear need for Christians to understand the nature, purpose, and functions of the local church.

And that's what we're going to set out to do today. And before we do that, I want to introduce you, Jeff, to my co -host today,

Reverend Buzz Taylor. He's a retired minister of the gospel.

Of course, he's never retired from evangelizing and spreading the gospel, but he is retired from the pastoral role at this point in his life.

And he has been pastors in Fundamentalist Baptist, in Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, in Church of God Finley, Ohio congregations, and in a

Presbyterian congregation. And it's my honor to have you back in the studio to co -host with me today,

Buzz Taylor. And if you could greet our guest, Jeff Johnson. Well, thank you, Chris. And hello,

Jeff. It's good to meet you on the air. And I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say to us today.

But I want to start out by saying, Chris, you make me sound a little bit older than I am. I'm just going by appearances,

Buzz. But yeah, I'm more than retired.

I would word it that I'm just presently not pastoring. Okay. And the book that we are discussing,

Jeff, I want you to go through all of the major portions of the book,

The Nature, Purpose, and Functions. But before I go into each of those segments of the church, let me announce our email address.

And that is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. So we would love to hear from you. If you have a question for our guest, Jeffrey D.

Johnson, on The Church, Why Bother? The Nature, Purpose, and Functions of the

Local Church. Jeff, before we go into those three major issues regarding the church, let me ask you a question.

Do you think that this lackadaisical attitude that many evangelicals have regarding the church, could it be an overreaction to the

Church of Rome and its insistence that the church is essential for salvation through the administration of the sacraments and so on?

And then you had over the years people embracing the truth, the reformational truth, that it is by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, that we are indeed saved.

And therefore you have those who truly live out those principles, but you have those who distort those principles and twist them, and perhaps are using them as a license to never really truly attach themselves to a local church.

Could that be one of the reasons, anyway? Yeah, I think you're right. I think there's a big part of it. I mean, we are reactionary type people.

We see an error and we run from it, but we run so far and so hard and fast that we jump into the other side, to the other error, if you would.

Rather than seeking to be balanced or biblical, what does the Scripture say, we tend to overreact.

And that's happening a lot in today's Christianity, you know, where we want

Christianity to be authentic, and for it to be authentic, we think it has to be personal, and that's true.

There's a side of Christianity, it's personal, it's intimate, and it has to be changed.

I'm sorry about that, there was just a little technical flaw there, but keep going, sorry. Okay, okay, that's fine. Yeah, so if we're seeking to guard against the error of formalism, and it was just Christianity is nothing but a formal thing, we go almost to the other error, where all

Christianity is just a personal relationship. And that's where we are today, and it seems like at least in America, Christians are like, you know,

I love Jesus, but I don't really need the church. My relationship is personal, it's real for me, and that's what matters.

What matters is that, you know, I have a daily devotion with Christ, or I worship the Lord individually, and that's what matters for me to be a

Christian, and so they don't oppose any formal institution, if you would.

Do you think that that is largely due to the fact that, again with the overreacting concept, that this is indeed a vital truth, that there is a very personal, intimate, one -on -one relationship that we have with Christ, and we who believe that God has no grandchildren, if you will, that when you stand before God on the day of judgment, it's going to be you and God, and you're not going to be able to blame your parents for anything in regard to your soul, or anybody else for that matter, nor can you claim the faith of your parents as a way of entering into eternal glory with Christ, and that truth that had been smothered by nominalism, by people being deemed

Christian by virtue of their bloodline and heritage and tradition and geography, that the overreaction of taking that truth of the personal, private, intimate relationship has been distorted to what you just said, that the communion with the body of Christ then becomes unessential, and they wind up actually denying and disobeying the very

Word of God that teaches them that we need a one -on -one relationship with God.

Yeah, yeah, and biblically it's not either -or, it's both -and, and we believe that our relation with the

Lord is personal. In fact, as Baptists, we would say that unless you have a personal relationship with the

Lord, if you're not converted, born again, and know the Lord intimately and personally, then you're not admitted formal membership into the local body, because the

Church is exclusively for Christians, and that's one of the very nature of the

Church, is the body of believers. It's not just a social gathering of Christians and non -Christians alike, you know.

It's really a body of believers that get together, so to be a part of that body officially, you have to have a profession of faith that's legitimate and real.

So the local Church is not undermining the importance of a personal, intimate relationship with the

Lord Jesus. But also, we believe that if you're born again and have the

Holy Spirit drawing in us, or in you, that the Holy Spirit that unites a believer to Jesus Christ, the same

Holy Spirit also unites the believer to other believers. And so to be a part of Christ is inherently to be a part of the body of believers.

If you're engrafted into the body, and let's say you're a toe, or you're a hand, or you're a foot, or an ear, to be a part of Christ you have to be a part of the body.

And that necessitates that, hey, I'm a foot, or I'm a ear, or I'm a toe, or a leg.

It necessitates that I'm also a part of the other bodies, or the other members that belong to Christ as well.

And so it's not an either -or, it's a both -and. To be a Christian, you're going to have an intimate, personal relation with the

Lord Jesus Christ, and you're going to have an intrinsic desire to have a relationship with other

Christians, and be a part of the greater body of Christ in fellowship with the saints on a regular basis.

Well, let's go through the major headings, and as I said before the broadcast, Buzz, you feel free to chime in whenever you have a question.

But let's start with the nature of the local church. Well, the nature of the local church is somewhat what

I've just got through saying, is the church by its very makeup is something supernatural, something that's divine.

That's one of the things we have to realize. If you're listening out there, it's like, well, why should I go to a church? First thing you need to realize, it's not a man -made institution.

It's not like a bunch of Christians gather around and say, hey, let's start a club. Let's, you know, let's have dues, and let's get a president.

Yeah, you'll often hear it described as a man -made institution, and you'll often hear the phrase,

I don't believe in organized religion. Right, as if man is the one behind this.

No, the church was organized by Jesus himself. He's the head of the church, and he's the one who gives the church with pastors and elders and deacons.

He's the one who defines what are the office bearers and describes the qualification of these offices, what man must be to meet these offices.

He's the one who tells the saint, not to forsake the local assembly of themselves together, but he tells the saints to obey those spiritual leaders in the church who have authority over them.

So it's Christ himself who says, I will build my church. I will organize the church.

I will establish the office bearers. I will establish the functions and the outgoings of what the church is all to be about.

It's the scriptures that define, and also not only define, but also send in, if you would, the purpose and the activities of what the church is to be doing.

And so we just want to be obedient and follow the Lord on these things.

Let's hear now a description of the culture of the local church.

Well, the culture of the local church is, well,

I wrote that chapter because we're living in a day that people are seeking to grow the church through something,

I think, subtly man -centered, a man -centered approach of growing the church.

And there's been a lot of studies showing that how to grow a business, a man -made business, is not just selling a product, but you're selling an experience.

For instance, Starbucks, they don't want to just sell you a cup of coffee. They want to sell you a kind of an in -store experience where you go, and there's something about going to Starbucks and sitting in those leather chairs and seeing the environment of a pretty hip, cool place.

And with that environment, you're kind of hit by going, and there's going to be other hip and cool people there as well.

So by going there, you just feel better about yourself. You feel good about going to Starbucks, and you get a cup of coffee.

You spend five bucks, but you're getting more than the coffee. You're getting experience. Well, churches have bought into that philosophy.

By the way, did you work for the PR department of Starbucks? No, no,

I haven't. But it's amazing how churches have sought to reproduce that same philosophy.

And some of them actually have Starbucks in the sanctuary. I don't know if it's exactly the franchise of Starbucks, but something close.

Sure, sure. Yeah, they want to appeal to the aroma. They want to make sure that the furnishers, the paint schemes, all that.

They do a lot of research in making sure that everything about the aesthetics of the building, the music, everything about it creates a pretty cool experience for the customer, or for the consumer.

And it's amazing how theologically that pulls people. It attracts people.

And so people are seeking to present the gospel with this secular wrapping paper, if you would, and to make the gospel more appealing and acceptable and pleasing.

And what I want to stress is not that Christians or the church is unconcerned about aesthetics.

I mean, churches should mow the yard and paint the walls, and it's okay to have a cup of coffee when you go to church.

But we want to make sure that what we are putting on the forefront of what should attract people to the church is not appealed to the five senses, but appealed to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That the truth is the thing that we're seeking to market, or if I can use the word market, if we're going to brand ourselves and we want to be known for something, it needs to be the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And be careful that we don't allow these other secondary things to become the focal point of our ministry.

And so I thought it would be important to write a chapter explaining that, that we need to be

God -centered rather than man -centered in our approach of seeking to evangelize the lost and preach the truth to the world.

And I don't know if it's this cold I've been battling, but I somehow skipped over something very important here in your list of vital segments on the church.

That's the purpose of the church. Yeah, that's very vital because if we miss it here, then the churches are going to go astray immediately.

And I think a lot of churches have gone astray, and a lot of people might say, Hey, why don't we need the church? Because the church has become nothing more than a social club, a place of attendance, a place of just, you go and you get entertained, or you get a little self -help lesson, and you go home and live your life without any real accountability to the greater body of believers.

Well, the nature of the church, going back to that, and the purpose of the church coincide. Fundamentally, the church is to be the pillar and ground of truth.

That is the Apostle Paul's own words, that this is what the church is. So above all things else, the church has to be known for the truth.

That the church is proclaiming the truth, the church is protecting the truth, guarding the truth, heralding out the truth, and that the saints are growing in the truth.

And one of the goals of the church is the sanctification of the body of Christ, the growth of individual believers, and the way we grow is by food.

But the food that we grow by is the Word of God. And so the church is to feed the saints the

Word of God, the truth. And so a lot of times people looking for a church, sadly, they assume, well, all churches are the same, they all preach the gospel, it's all essentially the same truth.

That's not really what's important. What's important is what will make my grandkids excited, what will make my children love church.

And if I can get my kids excited about church, then I'm happy. But what makes kids excited about church is youth ministry, or it's the facilities, or it's all kinds of other things, rather than it being, does this church uphold the

Word of God? What is the confession of the church? What does the church believe? That should be the foremost question about us, about inquiring about a church.

What do they teach, what do they believe, and what is the quality of the pulpit ministry on a weekly basis?

Yeah, it's interesting that you said that, because I know people who are in theological harmony with you and I, who believe strongly in the doctrines of sovereign grace, reformed theology, and yet who have chosen to join churches because, and they've even said this unashamedly,

I just love the music program they have there. Or they have so many activities for the kids, and they'll have a whole list of other things that take priority over what the confessional statement, if any, or the belief system of the church is.

Right. That's pretty sad, isn't it? Oh, yeah. One pastor said here locally where I live in Arkansas, all it takes to grow a church is good music and a good location.

And that's true. He's on to something, that's true. If you have good music and good location, then you'll be pretty successful.

You'll be growing something. You're growing something, yeah. But not necessarily a biblical, solid church.

And I can recall when I had an office in the building of the church that I was a member of in New York before moving to Pennsylvania, I had an office for my work as a radio executive, and the church was getting free advertising in lieu of rent for me having this office there.

And being sometimes the only one in the building, even late at night at times, there would be knocks at the door of the church, and I'd answer it.

And I can remember one particular instance where a couple were there, and they were demanding food from the pantry.

And I had to ask the woman, just out of curiosity, do you think that this is like a government institution where it's your right as a citizen to receive food and clothing from this church?

I'm not understanding how you're demanding anything of the church here.

I said, do you even ever attend the worship services here? And the woman said, no,

I don't. And I said, do you attend the worship services anywhere? And she said, well, yeah,

I have another church that I go to. And I said, well, why aren't you there asking them for food and clothes?

And she was becoming very indignant with me, and I didn't necessarily want to start an argument with her, and I did eventually give her food, but I wanted her to recognize that the main reason that this church existed was to glorify

God and to proclaim his word and to raise up disciples in that word and to draw the lost unto salvation, and that we were not there to be some kind of a wing of the government where we would be just there to hand out food and clothes to anybody who came to the door.

And she actually, even though I explained it to her, she became indignant because we didn't have any meat.

I said, we don't have a meat locker or a refrigerator here that's big enough to store meat. I mean, what are you—

Well, that's a problem with a lot of churches, though. I mean, some people might think that I was wrong for even acting that way.

Do you think I responded okay, Jeff? No, yeah, absolutely. In fact, I think churches need to make sure that although it's quite appropriate and even helpful at times for the church to help those less fortunate in the community, that's not the role or even the major purpose of the church.

We're not—the church is not called by Jesus Christ to be a welfare society for the culture.

We're not redeeming the culture around us. Our goal is not to necessarily feed the poor.

Our goal is to preach the gospel and to proclaim

Christ. And obviously we would not withhold any good that we could when someone comes asking us to hold something back within our ability to help.

But it's not the explicit purpose for the church to hand out provisions for the needy.

Right, obviously the other side of that coin, as the book of James clearly tells us, that to just tell people be warm and filled and help them with no— or should

I say not help them with any assistance with physical needs would be a wickedness.

I think it's helpful too, yeah, to distinguish the role of the church and the role of the individual Christian. What Christians are called to do individually, it may not be the same that the local church is to do corporately.

As an individual, if I see a need, you know, I'm supposed to do all that I can to go help that need. If it's in my ability to feed someone, to help someone, if I shut up, as the old

King James says, the bowels of my compassion, there's something wrong with me. However, to take that exhortation that God puts on the individual

Christian and then say, okay, now that belongs to the church collectively, is, to me, is a lot of Christians will say, well, the church will take care of it.

The church will take care of that. Well, I don't have a need, let's take that need to the church, when really the individual Christian says, what can

I do to meet that need, rather than the Christian automatically taking it to the elders and saying, hey,

I found this need, can we church help? Now there may be a case where that might be advisable, but Christians individually have a responsibility to help their neighbor.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that's the calling of the local church as a society of believers.

And, of course, there's also the discernment that needs to be used, because you have people who just take clothing and sell it for drugs.

Well, there are professional people who know exactly which churches we have, one that comes through here every now and then.

We finally just told the guy, we're not helping you at all. I mean, what we've been doing for you is not helping you at all, because it's a free handout, you're not establishing yourself anywhere.

That's why that's the last time I'm ever coming back to your church. Yes, yes. But more than that, most churches that I've been aware of have had some kind of a program for that, whether it's a deacon's fund or something, to help those who are in need.

But, yeah, I think the pendulum swung so far the other way that people think that that is the function of the church.

And before I go to the break, I just want our listeners to know that any time that anybody came to the church and politely asked for food or clothing,

I would graciously allow them into the building and give them whatever I could give them without any grilling or inquisition being done.

I just was taken aback by this particular woman's rudeness in demanding that I get her this food and her ungrateful attitude when she realized

I did not have meat. And she was basically dissatisfied with the canned goods and non -perishable food that we were offering.

But anyway, we're going to a break right now, if you'd like to join us on the air. And we do have a number of you waiting patiently to have your questions answered.

But if you'd like to join us on the air as well, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeffrey D. Johnson and our discussion on The Church, Why Bother?

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the

London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

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Iron Sharpens Iron possible. Welcome back to the program. If you just tuned us in for the last half hour and for the next 90 minutes, we are discussing

The Church, Why Bother? with Jeffrey D. Johnson, the author of this book.

In studio with me is my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

We do have a listener, Bob in White Plains, New York, who says,

How does the local church outreach to individuals who are not spiritual, don't have much faith, and are not accustomed to Biblical teachings?

My wife needs a woman mentor, and we cannot find a church that cares enough to reach out to her.

And how does this relate to Luke 15 and the lost sheep? I need a spiritual woman from within a church to reach out and befriend her and begin a mentoring relationship in the

Spirit of Christ. What is the church's true role? The old saying,

They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. This is where my wife is now.

Any answer to that, Jeff? Yeah, that's a very delicate question, and I can understand the question where it's coming from.

And you would hope and pray that there would be some godly woman that would, if you would, could come and meet that need.

That's a real need, and that would be wonderful if a godly woman could come and do some mentoring and befriend this man's wife.

However, I would encourage the caller that if you can't find that church, do not just mean to neglect the church altogether because of that.

If you could get good biblical preaching from the pulpit, who's preaching biblically, a good sermon's going to be able to address people who are very mature, and also a good sermon's going to be able to address people who are very spiritually immature.

And so there's going to be food to be had through the pulpit ministry, and that's the primary calling of the church to disciple its own members and Christians, if they be immature

Christians or mature Christians. The main place to get that feeding and that growth comes from the pulpit ministry.

So do not neglect the pulpit ministry, even though you might not be able to find the right woman who is able to do that.

And some churches may not be blessed to have a woman who has the pre -time. I mean, there could be a church with a lot of young mothers who are unable to find the time to do anything but change diapers and other necessities and needs.

So you can't necessarily judge a whole church based upon that individual need not being met.

And I think we have to be careful from making a good thing, which this would be a good thing, making a good thing the standard in which to judge the whole church by.

This is an individual need, but it's not necessarily, you know, if you read what the

Bible says about a church, there's no explicit command that would say, this is how discipleship works.

It has to work in this function. It does tell the older women to disciple the younger women to love their husbands and to be faithful in their homes.

So you see that command there. So you do want to find a church that you see the older, more mature women taking on that role.

That would be a sign of healthy members. But again, if you can't find that, don't just use that as an excuse to neglect the local church altogether.

And would you say that, obviously, he needs to be more clear with the leaders of that church that that need is out there?

You know, he has to make them aware that his wife is in need of this mentor. That's right.

You know, every church, I'm a pastor of a church, and every pastor's experience is someone leaving the church because of some unsatisfied need not getting met, but no one knew about it until they got baptized.

And so that's very frustrating on the church staff. It's like, oh, we didn't realize that.

Sorry that we weren't more intuitive. But sometimes you just have to come out and make the request very clear.

Yeah, sometimes our telepathy just doesn't work that well. And I know that some people, they fear giving the appearance of being overly intrusive.

You know, and they would rather have the person ask for something like that rather than giving the appearance of butting into somebody's private business and that kind of a thing.

Because I know the opposite is true, that there are many people who complain that you have church leaders who are, in their opinion,

I'm not saying this is necessarily true, but in their opinion, they're nosy and busybodies, etc.

It's none of your business to be poking around, asking questions like that, that kind of thing.

And I'm not necessarily saying that this is the case in every circumstance.

And by the way, as I am speaking, Bob from White Plains shoots another email with a question or a statement.

I have asked the pastors and nothing ever came of it. They were actually defensive in response.

Some older woman I asked within the church said, oh, let me pray about it. And again, nothing ever came of it.

Well, I guess, wouldn't you say, I mean, first of all,

I'm getting the impression Bob is not a member of this church. Would you say that that's a legitimate reason, even if he may be in accord with their theology, or perhaps he's not even at a place where he knows what biblically sound theology is?

But would that be a significant reason or a sufficient reason to move on and look elsewhere for a church home?

Well, I would say, without knowing more about the scenario, it's hard to make judgment there because I think, not in this case,

I don't know this case, but in many cases, people are looking for, number one, what they're looking for more than anything else is friendships.

They're looking for social connection. What they're judging a church by is how well do I connect, how well are the people friendly.

What they're looking for is the best friend. They're looking for a place to find some special friendship there, and when they can't find that, they move on, and I think that's a tragedy.

What if you have a church that's a biblically solid, Bible -believing church that loves the Lord, teaching the truth, but it's only ten people, and there could be and there are small churches, very small, and you go there and there's not anybody your age category that you can go there and connect with.

Well, does that mean that that church is not sufficiently worshiping the

Lord and doing what they're called to do, just because you can't meet your best friend, or at least not necessarily a best friend, but a real close friend, doesn't necessarily mean there's some inadequacy in the local church.

So we've got to be careful that we don't place the desire for connection and involvement and friendship, not saying that this was the motive of the caller, but we've got to make sure that that's not what we're looking for in a church, and when we can't find that, then we're out the door.

We are to be that to others. We are to seek to be friendly to others, but at the same time,

I would judge a church by the faithfulness of its doctrinal statements and by how faithful they uphold those statements and how well they teach and how serious they are about growing in the knowledge of the

Lord and in holiness. That would be something that would be foremost. These other issues would come into play as secondary things.

And Bob's emailing continually as I'm speaking, he basically is indicating that they are not keeping their word because they're assuring him, on one hand,

I will certainly get somebody to call you to discuss this and then it never happens. So that's the kind of thing that you really have to sit down with them and say, look,

I've been trying to be patient and I'm just asking you, please, why isn't anybody following through on your promises and that kind of a thing?

I mean, obviously, those are legitimate concerns to address a church leader about if they are promising you and assuring you that they are going to follow through with something and it never happens.

Yeah, you know, and Bob may have a real need there because one of the things the church is meant to do, and I think this is lost in many churches, it truly is, is churches come down to just a punch in, punch out activity, like you're going to the movie theaters and the church staff, if they come and they give a little lesson and they sing some songs, they have a service and they want you to come to the service and they may even want you to come to Wednesday nights, but above that, they really are not wanting to have a community of disciples who are being held accountable that do to one another.

So a healthy church is going to have healthy fellowship and healthy dialogue and interaction among its members where they're going to be helping each other in their needs.

If there's not that healthy fellowship going on and if there's no real pastoral oversight and that means getting involved in people's lives there, then there may be a real deficiency in the church.

So that would be something to really consider if this church is really seeking to love one another where the pavement and the rubber meets the road.

Before we go on to another listener's question, Bob just is insistent that we get

Luke 15 applied to the situation if you could. Luke 15.

I'd have to be reminded what... And while our guest is looking that up,

I'm going to just remind our listeners of our email address. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

And my listener is asking because he hears me coughing in the background on occasion.

Since I'm pressing the mute button when I cough and it's coming through on Buzz's microphone, but he's asking me if I'm smoking during this interview.

No, I'm not smoking. I do not smoke. I was a little levity,

I'm sure. But anyway... Yeah, that's the parable of the lost sheep. He brought that up in the parable of the lost glory.

Yeah, yeah. The Lord calls after those people. And in this case, we've got to be clear that our exegesis is correct.

This is speaking about the Lord who has a particular people that belongs to Him and He's not going to lose any of them.

And He's going to go into the highways and the hedges. He's going to go and find each and every one of His people.

Now, on the... If we want to make any application for the church, we've got to be careful here.

We've got to make sure that the church... We want to minister to all people.

And we would say there's no distinction between rich and poor or any social distinction.

We want to minister and reach and evangelize all people. But the Bible also says, you know, if they reject you two or three times, it has nothing to do with them.

So the Lord knows who really belong to Him and He can go after those and make sure

He finds them. But for us, we're not privy to actually who really belongs to the

Lord or not. So we're commanded to go. But we're also commanded not to throw our pearls before the swan.

And so, in the same case, we want to evangelize all and reach all. but, at the same time, you know, we want to be careful.

You know, we're not going to, at the same time, continue to single out one person and put all of our efforts on one person when that one person is not receptive to our evangelizing and our outreach.

Well, thank you, Bob. And by the way, you are getting a free copy of The Church, Why Bother? Compliments of Free Grace Press.

So we hope that you are blessed by that book. Make sure that we have your complete mailing address so we can get that out to you as soon as possible.

We'd also like to thank, again, our dear friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

That's CV, for Cumberland Valley, BBS, Bible Book Service, dot com.

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So, we want to thank Patty and Todd Jennings over at CVBBS .com for their faithfulness in sponsoring

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. there is something that you have repeated a couple of times that I would like to address.

I agree with you that what a church teaches in regarding to the

Word of God should be, first and foremost, a priority when choosing a church to join yourself to.

And, obviously, the godliness of the leaders, the character of the leaders, and those who are in membership in good standing, that they reflect the life of Christ, and so on.

But, don't you think that there are perhaps on more occasions than either you or I would care to admit.

I know, just to put it bluntly, Pastor Jeff, I know people who are in lockstep with me theologically, but who are raving idiots.

When I say idiots, that's a poor choice of words. Jerks. Who are jerks.

Who are just horrible people. I mean, and maybe that's an exaggeration when

I say horrible. I don't mean involved in any illicit, scandalous behavior.

But, I mean, I've met pastors that agree with me theologically who are rude, who are ungracious, uncharitable, selfish, proud.

I mean, do you think that if I'm looking for a church, this is the only one nearby that agrees with me theologically, that I'm bound to join a church where the leaders reflect that kind of character?

No, not at all. In fact, we have a clear scripture mandate talking about the qualifications of leaders.

One of the qualifications is one who's not proud or arrogant or boastful. You know, and so if someone demonstrates and is not exemplary in these major areas of the

Christian life, then I would see this man as not qualified, not just by man's standards, but not qualified to lead or pastor in God's eyes.

So if the church has such leadership in place that they're unqualified leaders, why would

I knowingly want to join that church? Why would I knowingly want to submit to men who are not even biblically qualified to lead?

It would seem like that would be a disastrous situation. And so, no, no, not at all.

In fact, you want to make sure that the church is preaching and upholding the Word of God.

But the Word of God will have to be upheld also in practice. And so we like to distinguish between orthodoxy and orthopraxy, you know.

One is in theology, one's in the mind, and one's in the hands. But the scriptures put those things together.

And so if someone really believes the truth, it will be evident by his godly life or her godly life.

And so, by seeing how they're living, it's an indication of what they truly believe.

So, if someone just has head knowledge and says the right things, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's exactly what they truly believe, or otherwise they would be living it out.

And of course, it becomes more difficult because you may have a church where those close to the pastor, his fellow elders, deacons, many of the members, they may view him in a completely different way than the public does because he may treat them differently.

He may be very kind, and it may be even a facade, or it may be genuine.

He may be just a favoritism. But anyway, that's just, obviously the world makes things more complicated than we would like them to be at times.

Yeah. But we might as well go on to another question here from one of our listeners.

Deborah in Staten Island, New York. What is one of the most important roles of the local church, and why?

Well, this going back to the purpose of the church, we mentioned one of them is the truth, the pillar ground of truth.

But there's two other things that you could add to that that are essential. The church is growing in the knowledge of the

Word of God. Two, that they're growing in unity. That is, unity with Christ, or closeness to Christ, and closeness to one another.

And three, growing in purity. So truth, unity, and purity, those are kind of the three major things.

And I would say that these things are intertwined. When you're increasing in one area, you will inadvertently be increasing in the other area.

So if you want to grow in unity with the brotherhood or with the saints, and we'll come closer to one another in the

Lord, the way to do that is through truth and purity. It is sin that causes division.

And so think about that. Sin is what divides us from the Lord, separates us from the Lord. It's sin that causes us to have division within the body of Christ.

So we have to fight sin, and that's the great objective, is holiness. That we glorify

God through holy living. And through holiness, we grow in greater love to God and greater love to our neighbors, which draws us more and more unified to the saints.

And that takes place. How does holiness come through? It comes by believing the truth.

Sanctify them, Jesus says, through the truth. Thy word is truth. So it's the truth which is the means in which we become more unified and holy.

And that's the great objective of the church. I think a lot of the criticism that comes to the church, though, is the result of people not realizing that they are there to worship

God through the congregation. That this is the worshiping community.

And I know that in many, many cases, the attitude has become, what's in it for me?

Because this is the, you were talking about the marketing earlier. That's exactly the way that the gospel is presented so often.

You know, like I have this great need, so I lost my boyfriend or something like that. Well, if you come to Jesus, that need will be met.

And then they come to the church and they continue right on not expecting those needs to be met. What's in it for me?

But if we view it as the worshiping community, I think that a lot of the other things would fall in line.

A lot of the criticisms would stop. We would realize we're all in this together. Yeah, and rather than saying what the church is doing wrong, rather it's like how do

I help the church? What is my role in making the church have a more friendly atmosphere?

How can I help welcome the visitors? How can I encourage this older lady? How can I encourage this person that's just lost her husband or his wife?

How can I be a means of encouragement to their needs? But it's also, yes.

Go ahead. It's also an awesome thought to think that, you know, not only when we worship are we part of a community that is worshiping around the world, but we also fit into history as part of the worshiping community that exists at this particular time.

We've got our heritage of worshipers that have come before us. We're part of a so much larger picture than ourselves, and I think this is primarily what's lost because of the, well, actually,

I came to Christ in the 70s, and even then, you know, it was me and Jesus. You know, listen to our songs, you know?

Well, back in the 70s and even before then, our culture has gone to individualism. We find our identity, our purpose, in the individual self -expression.

So it's all about what shoes I wear and what jacket I have and the car that I drive or my house.

You know, I find my self -worth in things that set me distinctly apart from my neighbor.

What makes me unique? What makes me separate? What makes me an individual from the whole? That's where I get my identity.

Well, God tells us to find our value, our worth, our identity in Him. And so we need to realize that if I'm going to find true, biblical self -worth, if I'm going to find identity and meaning and purpose in life, it's going to come through a personal relationship with God and, in addition to that, a personal relationship with the body of Christ.

Well, we could say, hey, part of who I am is I'm a member of this church. Part of who I am is

I'm a member of the body of believers. That is identity. And that's what's being lost.

And so now people go to church and it's all about how do I get help rather than looking at this as a congregation and seeing how

I fit as one of the many parts of the whole group. We have other listeners patiently waiting for their questions to be answered.

But we are going to a break right now. And, by the way, Deborah in Staten Island, you are also getting a free copy of the book

The Church, Why Bother? And anybody else who'd like to join us on the air, shoot us an email at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com I do want to mention now before I forget that we apologize to our

Canadian and overseas listeners that this offer of the free books is only for United States residents because of the shipping charges involved.

We give away a lot of books on Iron Sharpens Iron. And our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cannot be stuck with an enormous shipping bill every month for the overseas and Canadian shipments.

So, we still want to hear from you no matter where you live on the planet Earth with your question for our guest today.

And please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. And you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

And that's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with Jeffrey Johnson and The Church, Why Bother? I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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We were made to thrive We were made to thrive Welcome back, this is

Chris Arnsen. If you just tuned us in for the last hour and the next hour to come we have as our guest today we have as our guest today

Jeffrey D. Johnson and we are discussing his book The Church, Why Bother?

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is ChrisArnsen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com and please include your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA and you may remain anonymous if it's a personal and private question. We do have

Brian in Gardeners, Pennsylvania He asks or it's a combination of both a comment and a question

I believe there was a time when the local church had a much more important status than it does today.

The local church today has become more of a feel -good place a child care center and a place to get coffee and donuts.

Why do you suppose we hear very little from the pulpit regarding matters of importance such as abortion, gay marriage liberty and freedom, politics, etc.?

Very interesting observation and question and obviously there's going to be some disagreements on especially that last item politics, whether it belongs a matter of discussion from the pulpit and of course there are things that are spoken of in the

Bible that are involved in the political realm but not necessarily political issues there are issues that transcend politics like the murder of unborn children and so on.

If you could comment on that, Jeff. The first part of that I think is spot on in the sense that sadly churches have become irrelevant in their attempt to be relevant.

They want to be more they want to have an influence on the culture and they want to reach the culture and they want to essentially they want to grow but they want to grow to such an extent that they'll compromise the gospel to be more relevant but in so doing

I think the caller or the questioner questions was dead on it's like in trying to be relevant they've made themselves irrelevant by just giving out coffee and all kinds of stuff but rather than the church's role speaking on politics the church's role is to preach the gospel and to teach the word of God and the whole council not just a portion of scriptures not just the truths that we find enjoyable but all truth all scriptures need to be proclaimed and taught and that's the only way the church is going to regain it's relevance is when it regains it's commitment to the word of God.

There has been even differences of opinion among guests

I've had on this program guests who would be in lockstep doctrinally but who disagreed on the role of politics from the pulpit and in the local church where do you draw the line on banning any political discussion or commentary from the pulpit

I mean obviously as I mentioned earlier the murder of unborn children and things like that the endorsing and celebration of homosexuality that goes on in our culture that is becoming in some ways legally binding upon the citizens here it's a frightening day in which we live obviously perhaps that's an exaggeration with some of our brothers in Christ actually literally being tortured and murdered overseas but if you could comment on that Yeah I mean

I think we have to be careful that we separate the kingdom of God from the kingdom of this world

I mean I just recently preached through 1 Peter and Peter is exhorting the saints there that are scattered in northern

Asia Minor who likely possibly could have been expelled from Rome for being either

Jewish or Christians because Nero had all the Jews which included the Christians expelled after he blamed the fire upon them so he expelled the

Christians and Jews and some believe that Peter is addressing those

Roman Christians that are now deported and if that's the case

I mean are you talking about people who have been victimized by their government it's these

Christians and regardless if that's the case or not they're still being persecuted by the local areas and what he's telling them to do is submit to those who have authority over you so there is a role of preaching to the saints, to the believers about how to handle government but the role is to submit to those who have authority even to those that we we do not necessarily on our personal level voted for we would submit to as long as they're not commanding us to go against our conscience and that's the key

I mean we have a liberty of conscience and we have to obey God rather than man so there's a time for Christians not to obey the laws of the land but as long as the laws of the land are not in opposition to the laws of God we're called to be submissive so there is a role of teaching the saints how to interact with government but once the church becomes endorsing a political party then

I think a church may have gone beyond its official roles and purpose and it begins to conflate if you would the spiritual realm with the secular realm and I believe that as a

Christian I have a duty to the government and I'm to vote according to my conscience and my

Christian values affects who I vote for and who I support and the type of government I'd like to see over us but as a pastor it's not my role to become someone who endorses a particular politician even if you know the person very well perhaps he's even a member of the congregation and you know his walk very closely his walk with the

Lord and all that and you... Right, a pastor stands in two realms does he not?

As an individual he has the right of any other citizen to recommend put up in his yard put up a poster of who he's supporting for so yeah, a pastor and any

Christian can encourage people to vote for the people that they stand for on a personal practical level but that's something different than getting behind the pulpit and saying, thus saith the

Lord I think we should reserve the pulpit as a place to expound God's word and bring application to the word of God and not bring in our opinions or our personal desires into that again,

I think, like you said homosexuality, abortion transcends these political divisions there's a clear biblical truth teaching us about the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage between a husband and a wife so the trick is to uphold those behind the pulpit but when you start to use the pulpit as a means of enhancing a political agenda

I think that's close to abusing the pulpit some have hurled the accusation at me and some of my guests in the past who took a very similar view to what you're taking they have accused us of following in the footsteps of the church in Germany during the rise of the

Nazis and they will look to the fact that the church in Germany was largely silent about the grotesque and wicked ideology of the

Nazi party and the fact that they were rounding up Jews and others and putting them in camps and having them executed and slaughtered and of course there are some who paid the price the minority of professing

Christians who did stand against these kinds of things

Dietrich Bonhoeffer being one who theologically you and I would have a lot of problems with but he obviously was a very brave man and a man who lived and died for his convictions but if you could comment on that how do you respond?

I think that's comparing apples and oranges together obviously we would agree that the church is to stand against homosexuality and against this and the church should not marry gay couples and therefore the church may be persecuted for that stand so here we're not saying hey we're going to take a neutral ground on these social issues not when the social issues are clearly explicitly taught what's right in the scriptures however that's a huge difference apples and oranges when you say that and then when you start looking at two different republican nominees if you would or two republicans running for president this is who we're going to as a church or as a pastor this is who

I'm going to to promote behind the pulpit that's a personal issue that is more subjective and you're using you're saying

God's behind this behind the pulpit and you may be quite wrong on who's

God supporting here doesn't God tell you audibly who to vote for? well there's been whole denominations that think that I didn't mention any names

I think there may be a gas leak in my studio, I'm sorry we do have another listener and by the way

Brian you are also getting a free copy of The Church, Why Bother? and our next listener who has written us he is receiving the last copy that we have available

Ralph in Linbrook, Long Island says with so many varieties of worship how can we guard against schism in the local church?

that's a very good question and I don't know if any more things cause more division in the local church than in worship wars and it's sad it is sad and I think there does need to be a measure of patience and thought for me

I have a strong view of worship that means a lot to me and I have a whole chapter in the book on worship the nature of worship and to me

I think the debate has been framed wrong I think the debate has been framed about contemporary vs.

traditional worship and so the battle goes on to hymns or contemporary music that's the reason

I think a lot of the divide has taken place I think that's a wrong way of looking at this controversy rather it needs to be viewed more of congregational centered worship vs.

performance centered or a band led worship and that's really the real issue is worship congregational centered?

or is it more of a band or individualistic centered worship?

and I think that's really where the debate should fall worship vs. entertainment worship vs.

performance that kind of thing, right I think one of the things that worship is meaningful to all of us is when we are congregational focused we're not lost in individual expression of worship but what we're being encouraged by is hearing the voices of those around us sing so it's not just hearing a lead vocalist really jam out and sing eloquently or having the right musicians up there and the right instruments really in harmony all that is really secondary to worship in fact that's the company worship and assist worship but real worship is focused on the lyrics the truth, what's being proclaimed and two the congregation singing out collectively as a whole and so what has led churches to leave hymns is because is leave hymns is because hymns are are not easily sung if you would like a band a band that's playing on stage if you would doesn't necessarily suit hymns hymns are made, what's the beauty of hymns it's not that hymns are good because they're old, what's the beauty of hymns is they're made to be sung by the congregation

Amen And it's interesting, when I interviewed Dr. T. David Gordon years ago on the old

Iron Sharpens Iron on his book, Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns the reverse of what you said but stating the same fact is that much of the worship music in the church today cannot be sung appropriately and properly by congregations, they're more the music is actually designed more for solo artists and that kind of a thing very, very often, not all the time, but very often

Right, and where we want to focus on worship should be hearing your neighbors sing and then your voice is blending in with the whole congregation so it's not this individualism of I'm having my personal encounter with Jesus or with the

Holy Spirit it's a church collectively coming together and it's the Bible tells us that we may admonish and encourage one another through songs, hymns and spiritual songs, so it's us being lifted up and encouraged and ministered to by the voices of the saints around us

Well, thank you Ralph for that excellent question and you are receiving our last copy of The Church, Why Bother?

So thank you very much for submitting that Well, if we do realize that we are the worshiping community we have to remember that the community isn't just the young people but it does include the young people and I think we need to strive to where all can be included if a young person can't sing

Amazing Grace there might be something wrong Yeah, I am very disturbed by the way that the church has become a youth cult it's actually it's almost it seems as if the worship services are purposely designed to drive out older people hoping that they'd wind up in some

Christian ghetto for senior citizens where they're all in one church worshiping until they go home to glory so that they can have the freedom to do whatever they want to do with the musical instruments and the worship styles and it seems very selfish very prideful it seems just seems to lack compassion for the senior citizens who very often have a wealth of godly wisdom that's being ignored, that's being squandered and all in favor of the numeric growth that is brought by young people coming through the doors of the church

Starbucks, their main target is the youth, every corporation their main target is the youth, that's how they have a future, get the youth attached and two,

I mean, back in the 90s and 80s, church growth was all based upon the youth ministry, and the youth ministry is based upon having a gym and and now the philosophy of church growth has changed rather than attracting the young people and the children and the college age students through having you know, a gymnasium or some activities, now it's through the concert performance in the actual worship service so churches are actually gaining and they're directing and targeting the college age student, because the thinking is this, if we can get the college age student to come to church, if they're excited about church, then the parents will follow, and that's what you know, if you can get, the kids are really driving the industry, if you would

I hate to use the word industry in the local church area, but that's what the secular church has come, it's come into an industry and it's all about church growth where the biblical model is not trying to gain numbers for the sake of gaining numbers we're trying to make disciples and of all people and of all of all ages

We have a question from CJ Lindenhurst, Long Island who asks according to your understanding of ecclesiology and eschatology, do you believe that the church is the fulfillment of Old Testament Israel?

That's a whole subject of its own That's a whole subject of its own

I have a belief on that yet the church doesn't replace

Israel, the church I believe is Israel, and the true Israel of God, and I have a book called

The Kingdom of God where I show throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament that God's seed that he had in mind all along was the spiritual seed of Abraham that comes through faith in Jesus Christ, that's the true

Israel, that's the true child of God not one who has genetics on his side not one who is just born into the family of Israel, but one who has been born into the family of God who is a child of Abraham a child of Abraham by faith that includes

Jews, but it also includes Gentiles and so the church is indeed the true children of Abraham so if that answers the question

I would say that the church was the intended promise given to Abraham I would definitely like to pursue an interview on that book at some point in the near future

Yeah, I would love to Thank you very much CJ and sorry we don't have any more books to give you, but keep looking out for notifications for an interview with Pastor Jeff on the, what was the title of that book?

The Kingdom of God The Kingdom of God Well now Jeff, we've been talking about the church and so forth, the various aspects of it, and I'm reminded of,

I mean this has been a very important subject to me, having pastored a number of churches, I've always been very church centered as far as I believe you know, the key body that Christ said he would build is his church and I haven't heard as much about the controversy of late, but I know years ago there was a lot more controversy between church and parachurch

Could you address that a little bit? Yeah, in fact if you could address it when we return from the break we're going to go to our final station break right now and we'll just keep in mind that we're going to launch into the discussion on the parachurch versus local church when we return

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

if you have any questions for Pastor Jeff and we look forward to hearing from you after these messages, so don't go away

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host, asked you before the break about the parachurch phenomenon.

There are churches and pastors and leaders that are vehemently opposed to any and all parachurch organizations, and then there are obviously varying degrees of acceptance and affirmation or disagreement.

After that, you have those who would say that they love many parachurch organizations, as long as they are under the leadership of a local church or something to that effect.

But if you could comment. Yeah, that's an important thing, because there are a lot of ministries that we all probably benefit from to some degree, to another gospel coalition, nine marches.

There are so many of these things that have been beneficial, and I wouldn't personally condemn these ministries, but we've got to recognize what they are.

They're a parachurch ministry. There is a distinction between a parachurch ministry and a local church.

What's dangerous about a parachurch ministry is that I've seen it happen, especially among college students that get involved in a college church ministry that's on the campus, and they treat that as their church.

They begin to look at the parachurch as a supplement or a replacement of a local church, where they put in all their financial givings, their time, their energy, their efforts, in ministering to the parachurch church in the organization and think, oh, this is all

I need. It's the saints. We're gathering together. We're doing a common objective. But we've got to recognize that Christ did not die for the parachurch, and that Christ is not the one who organized the parachurch ministry.

He organized and established the local church, set up its office barriers, set out its purpose, its objective, gave it discipline to keep the church pure.

And so that is where God is promised to be glorified and where he's promised to meet his people.

So if anything that we do in any way or shape or form begins to rob us from the local church, then the parachurch ministry becomes a hindrance rather than a help.

And obviously there are mavericks and lone wolves out there who are an authority unto themselves in this day and age of the

Internet, which, like all other progresses in invention, have been used both by God in powerful and wonderful and beautiful ways and also by Satan as a way of spraying falsehood and getting people distracted and sucked into all kinds of deviant behavior that they otherwise would not have been participating in.

That's right. If the church would function the way God designed it, it would really eliminate a lot of that.

And a lot of people, they'll start their own home church or they'll start their own organization. It's because they don't get approved or accepted by the local church.

The church is, you know, to be called into ministry, one of the callings is having your gift and your calling evaluated by the church.

And so that calls for testing, a period of testing and examination and approval by God's people.

And a lot of times men won't receive that. They want to be authority. They don't want to submit to authority.

And so they just leave the church altogether and start their own thing as if they don't need the local church's stamp of approval.

And that's where it becomes very dangerous. What do you think about the home church movement in general?

I mean, I don't know how familiar you are with it. I know some people who are in the home church movement.

I disagree with them on their insistence that it is the biblical model.

But there are some who, in spite of that difference, I have had great fellowship with them and have had them on the program as guests.

But even they, the people that I know personally involved in the home church movement, even they say there's a lot of mischief being wrought in the home church movement and a lot of horrible things happening.

But maybe you could explain what we're even talking about to our listeners if you want. Yeah. Well, our church meant a home for about five years before we outgrew the living room setting and there wasn't enough room for us.

So meeting in a home or meeting in a building, in God's view, doesn't matter. We do believe, however, that one of the things our church is, it is a gathering of the saints.

It's a local gathering of the saints. And so you need an environment that allows you to gather together corporately in one place.

That's why we need buildings outside the homes, is so that we can have a large enough space for the saints to gather together in one body.

Now, you could argue, well, a church is more productive and more beneficial if they're smaller.

That's a whole different conversation. But to say that a church has to meet in a home to be biblical is very unbiblical because the location or the building facilities is something that, it's like saying, do we want a big pulpit or a small pulpit?

That doesn't make any consequential difference in the eyes of God.

But what I'm afraid of, not in all of the churches that meet in homes, but many of them, the real root of the problem is a lack of submission to authority.

And by a lot of people home church means is that we don't have elders. And there's no authority figure, which most of them are hypocritical because there's usually someone raising up among the group that's working like an elder who's teaching primarily and is teaching and kind of the authority figure.

But nevertheless, it's usually someone who has a problem submitting to elders who say, hey,

I'll just be my own pastor and I'll start a home church and invite their friends to come and be a part of their local church gathering.

And I think that's very dangerous. Well, this is something I went through some years back.

You already heard at the beginning of the first hour when Chris was wasting all that time talking about all the various churches

I have pastored. All the various churches that ran him out of town. Let's just say

I've been around the block. I would like to say that I've settled down since then.

He was talking about ancient history. He has ceased being blown to and fro from every window.

I don't get peeled off the ceiling anymore. But as I was leaving one denominational

Pentecostal church, of course, I had kind of been growing out of the theology of it anyway.

But when I left, I made sure that all my friends from that church understood because we were starting a church in my home, not a home church, but starting a church in the home, that I was not doing it as a rebellious thing because I had greater manifestations of the spirit or anything like that.

It was because I am an ordained minister and I was doing it as an ordained minister.

And as soon as I found out there was another similar church to what I was starting, we stopped and joined that church and worked through it because it was already much better established.

The same scenario with me. We started our church in my living room and it wasn't seeking to be unsubmissive to any authority that was over me at the time.

I was looking for just a solid church that preached the gospel and there wasn't one that I could find in the area that I was content with, that I could feel like I could worship here.

So there was a need to start a church, but we were trying to start a church that would function biblically with elders, leaders, and we did it in a home because we were small and it was a convenient place to do that.

So there's nothing wrong with churches meeting in a home and being small. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a small church in the living room.

But as you started today's discussion, unfortunately many people probably weren't with us at the beginning of the first hour, but as you started the whole discussion of course, what is the need for the church?

Is the church important? And we've all spoken to people who have claimed that they don't really need it.

It's me and Jesus, we're doing just fine without it and I don't need it. And of course that would always be my first thing is to say, well, who are you submissive to?

Well, I don't have anybody to be submissive to because I'm not part of the organized church or whatever, and that's the whole problem.

It's like why would Paul tell Titus to go appoint elders in Crete if he didn't expect us to be under the authority of those elders?

That's right. So a lot of it is rebellion. Right, it is.

The New Testament is written under the assumption that Christians are a part of the local gathering.

They took that for granted. In fact, most of the books are written to churches and how to conduct themselves in the local church.

So how do you fulfill most of the commands if you're outside the local gathering? How do you take communion if you're not a part of the local body?

So that's part of the Christian DNA is to be a member and held accountable.

In fact, I tell our members as they're joining, what you're doing, you're agreeing to be held accountable and to hold other people accountable to live godly lives.

And even when you say accountable, when I was in a Reformed church, a very good church, this was up in Maine, we had a person who, we weren't doing enough evangelism, so he kind of took it upon himself he was going to do evangelism.

And he started doing all his own kind of stuff with his own ministry. And he wanted us to get involved and wondered why we wouldn't get involved.

He did not have the blessing of the church because this guy would go into the park and yell at everybody because they drank beer instead of presenting the gospel.

It's like we do not give this man official sanction, but yet he was going to go ahead and do it anyway. And that's when

I started realizing even our evangelism needs to be somehow controlled by the authority of the church to make sure that we aren't some avant -garde person out there doing it totally our way.

And the elders of the church were getting tired of being yelled at in the park. But that's an interesting fact, though, because we are all called to be evangelists.

Where does the freedom and responsibility where we as individual priests, we are the priesthood of believers, where does the liberty get the line drawn where we have to say, wait, no,

I have to have the local church involved in what I'm doing here. And under that heading you have a lot of issues.

You have even churches that disagree over the ordinances.

You have churches that will say that only the leaders of a local church are to administer baptism and the

Lord's Supper. You have other churches who say, well, there's nothing that specifically spells that out in the scripture.

I, if I'm on vacation in Italy, if I lead a lost person to Christ and that person says,

I'd like to obey Christ and be baptized, I have the liberty, and some would even say the duty, to baptize that person.

And, of course, another church would put that person under discipline for doing that without the oversight of the church.

If you could comment on that. Yeah, yeah, I can see both sides.

I can see why someone would look at Philip in the Ethiopian eunuch and what prevents me from being baptized.

And Philip would go, well, we've got to wait until we get a church established and do it in that setting.

So I can understand that there being some scriptural mandate that would see people, we've got to get people baptized as soon as possible.

And I actually hold that baptism should be as close to one's profession as possible.

I do, I do as well. Yeah, I do hold that. However, I still believe that the

Lord's Supper and baptism is the ordinance, belong to ordinance, official ordinances of the church.

And because of that, that principle of it being a church ordinance, I see that the church is the one that's commissioned to guard, protect, and to execute these ordinances.

And so to be properly done, I believe members need to be submitted to a local church and take communion there and to be baptized into the church by the church.

And so I personally believe they're church ordinances. Now, I don't think necessarily that the pastor has to be or the ordained elders have to be the actual ones that do the emerging, even though I think that's probably best and safest, but it does have to be done in the oversight, the oversight of the elders and the leaders of the church.

Could a woman properly baptize a woman in the church, say the mother of a daughter or even vice versa, the adult daughter baptizing her mom when she comes to Christ?

If the pastors, I'm saying, give approval to such a thing during the worship service and so on, or wherever the pastors or the leaders give approval, should they be giving approval to begin with for a woman to administer baptism?

Yeah, you're going to get me in trouble. Well, I don't have a personal...

I wouldn't die on this hill. This is not a place that I have a position that's locked steady.

It's like, okay, this is worth that. I would say I have an opinion. I think it's best, personally it's best, for the leaders of the church to administer the ordinances.

But is it prohibited? Absolutely, I would not say no. I would say it's just a wisdom issue.

And maybe it's what's best in this scenario.

It may be best, but not necessarily evil in and of itself for a mother to baptize her daughter.

So I'll just leave it there. And of course you could even have a woman involved in a prison ministry or something baptizing a female inmate.

That would be better. If you've ever preached in a woman's prison, that's better. Yeah, that's right.

These are wisdom issues, and you have to look at the whole scenario and all the things that are involved. You may have someone who's terrified of water, and the mother can comfort the daughter in the process.

There are a lot of things to consider. How about the

Lord's Table or Holy Communion, the Eucharist, however you want to phrase it,

Lord's Supper, being brought to hospitals and nursing homes and other places where someone cannot attend the service.

I know pastors who participate in that, and I know pastors who strongly object to that.

What do you think about that? Well, as long as you can take the church with you. We were so small at one time, we had one of our members in a nursing home, so once a month.

We met on a Wednesday night in the nursing home's chapel facilities, so this member of our church can at least be a part of our worship gathering once a month.

And we decided to do our communion there. Now, we fenced the table off, so we have what you call a closed communion where we invite believers visiting us in church to take communion, and we fence it off to nonbelievers.

But with that said, we did communion there to help this precious member of our church be a part of communion, and I think that was a nice gesture, but it's still done within the local church.

I have a problem with Bible studies randomly. It's just a group of people having a

Bible study, not a church, but they say, why don't we do communion? That's where I would strongly oppose something like that taking place.

That's like trying to become a small church within the church. Right, that's right. And I want to make sure that before we run out of time, you get to every area that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners, so why don't

I give you that opportunity now to unburden your heart and make sure that's done, and then we can take the remaining time if there is any to answer any listener questions if they come in or what have you.

Well, thank you, Chris and Boz, for good questions and for wanting to interview me on this book, because I don't think there's anything more needed in the day that we're living in than a love for God's people and a love for the church.

It's surprising to me that there's people who say, I love Jesus, but I don't love the church.

I think that's kind of like saying, I love my wife's face. You know, she's beautiful in the face, but I really care less about her body.

That would be pretty insulting to my wife if I did not also love her from head to toe.

And how much more is it insulting to Christ Jesus to say, I love you, but I don't love your body. I don't love the people that you love.

I don't love the people that you died for. It's really an unbiblical way of looking at Christianity.

And I firmly believe that a Christian's life should be rotated on bringing

God glory. And when bringing God glory, I think our earthly, physical schedules should rotate around the local church.

That the local church should be such an integrated part of our life. We're not just attending church, but we're actually true members.

We're active members, functioning parts of the body that we're seeking to contribute, help, minister, hold other people accountable, be in submission to the elders and leaders of the church, but also be in submission to the whole body of believers.

And bringing my Christian life into subjection to the oversight of this wonderful thing that Christ himself has established.

And so to love Christ is to love the local church. And to want to be heavily involved and a major participant in the actual purpose, functions, and activities of a local church.

That was well put. I really want you to give a word to those who have been burned, seriously burned by churches.

They have mental and emotional scars. There could be innumerable reasons why this occurs.

It could be they were in a cult. It could be that they were in a church that behaved like a cult.

That a really authoritarian leadership that really crushed the spirit of the person.

It could be that they were molested by a leader in the church. Or any number of things that could have happened.

And it could have happened several times in different churches. What do you do to these people?

What can you say to these people who I've just had it with the church. And I've met a number, a lot, of people in this category.

I've had it with the church. I will visit from time to time. I am never again going to put myself in the place of being held accountable to people that ruined my lives, destroyed my reputation, unnecessarily slandered me, got me fired from my job, had me in counseling for sexual abuse, and all that kind of thing.

Yeah, and fortunately I've met these people too. And it's sad because there are churches out there like that.

There are churches that have abused their members. And there's been authoritative leaders that have been abusive in their leadership model and practices.

Well, I understand that because we have some,

I think, some people that I know personally that have experienced that. And what

I would say to any listener that may be going through this and thinking through this is that we've got to remind ourselves that it is

God who is the one who's instituted this. He does know why we need this.

We do need the church. So if we get to the point of saying, I don't need the church, we have an unbiblical response to the abuse.

And the abuse has led us to actually to an error in our thinking.

And the way to correct and heal abuse is not by accepting more error or going to an error.

We have to say, well, God has established the church. That is what's best. But what is best is to find a biblical -based church that is not abusive but is loving and kind and nurturing.

And it's going to be a church that I can submit to and trust and bring my children into and not worry about them being molested or interfered upon.

And so I would encourage them not to give up in their search for a church, not to give up on the importance of the local church, and obviously there's going to be trust issues that's going to have to be regained.

But begin to pray. Lord, pray about this and begin to look and research the church.

I have people in our church that told me they've been abused by churches so much that don't look for them to be joining.

They were just going to come, and they've been coming. And it's just like it's over a couple years. They're slowly, slowly letting their guard down.

And you can see it happening. And I think there's healing going on, and I think there's trust being built.

So just as someone's been abused by two poor husbands, you know, and it doesn't mean that marriage is bad.

And just because churches have abused Christians don't mean that church as God designed it is bad.

So I would just pray that they would not swing into an era and say,

I will have nothing to do with a church. That is also a poor response to being abused.

But I can understand the caution that they would have in their searching for a church and want to be very careful before they submit themselves to another body of believers.

Yeah, we shouldn't reject Christ because of Judas. That's right. And what do you say to someone, in fact,

I got an email years ago on the old

Iron Sharpens Iron from a listener I had in Japan, a woman who was a moonie who had come to Christ and had left the moonie cult, her and her husband, who were both in an arranged marriage, left the moonie cult, and she was starving for a church.

And she actually started to attend the worship services of a local Catholic church, which is the only church in her area in Japan, which is a very tiny

Christian population. But what do you say to a person like that when they have nowhere to go?

Yeah, well, in a case like that, I would be very careful and very discerning.

Say if I went to a church that was questionable, that's one thing. But if I'm bringing in my children into that church,

I'm responsible for what influence that church may have on my children. So it's one thing for an individual to kind of, with great spiritual discernment, be able to weed out the error in a church that may or may not be healthy.

But you've got to be careful bringing in a wife or your children into such a scenario.

There may be cases, like some people are in prison. Say if you're marooned on an island, there's going to be cases.

Of course God's going to meet your needs, and God's going to be sufficient for your needs.

There are those extreme cases. But most of us are not in those extreme scenarios.

Most of us are in communities that there's plenty of churches, and we're upset we can't find a church because of secondary concerns are not being met.

My felt needs are being not met. Or I've been personally wounded by Sister Joy over there who made me feel bad.

Now I can't go to church anymore because she made me feel bad. You know, most people are not going to church because of some petty issue or some unresolved personal issue.

When in reality, they're in disobedience to God because they're forsaking the local assembly on themselves together.

I would say you need to find the best church you possibly can find. And if you cannot find that,

I'd encourage you strongly to move. And that's where we have to leave it because we're out of time.

And I know that your church website for Grace Bible Church is gbcconway .com,

gbc, for Grace Bible Church, conway .com. And that's in Conway, Arkansas, for anybody listening who needs a church.

And I want to thank you so much, Pastor Jeff, for being on the program. I look forward to having you back very soon. Thanks, Chris.

Thanks, Buzz. Thank you. Thank you, Buzz. Thank you to everybody who listened and sent in questions.

And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.