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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth, listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the 17th day of February 2016.
And we have a very important topic today because there can be few other things more important in the Christian life than the church that Jesus Christ shed his blood for. Today we're talking about a new book by my Jeffrey D. Johnson titled The Church, Why Bother?
You've probably met a lot of people who think that the church is really not that important. Perhaps they only go to church or attend a worship service on Easter and Christmas, perhaps Mother's Day, or perhaps they bounce from church to church to church and never really commit to the authority of the leadership of any of them.
Well, we're going to be talking about the importance of the local church today, as I said, with Jeffrey D. Johnson, and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Jeffrey D. Johnson.
Thanks, Chris. It's good to be back. And for those of our listeners who have never heard Jeff on the show before or they are unfamiliar with him, he is founder of Free Grace Press, and he's a pastor at Grace Bible Church in Conway, Arkansas.
And we're discussing this book that has received a lot of accolades from some very important figures. Let me read some of them. John MacArthur, who I'm sure is no stranger to our listeners, says, This excellent book shines clear light of Scripture on those and many other questions.
And the question is, the church, why bother? Obviously. Since Christ loved the church enough to die for her, every believer ought to share that passion. Jeffrey Johnson clearly does, and I believe you will find his enthusiasm contagious.
Vodie Baucom, who many of you may be familiar with through his writing and through his conference appearances, and he is now a part of a Reformed seminary in Zambia, Africa. But Vodie Baucom says, Jeffrey Johnson offers a concise, sobering, and eye-opening message for a generation in need of ecclesiological reformation.
Johnson addresses the issues we face today and roots them in their historical, theological context. Mark Dever, who many of our listeners are familiar with through his nine Marx Ministries, he's also pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D .C., he writes, Jeffrey Johnson has written a book on the church that is short enough to read right now, clear enough to be understood, and important enough to help many of us follow Jesus Christ as he intended, as members of his church.
Why not read it now? And finally, Dr. Joel Beakey, a friend of mine who's been on this program many times, he is the president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan, he writes, Jeffrey Johnson strips away layers of human tradition and worldly wise philosophy to restore our view of the church to its biblical simplicity.
In this book, the church shines. And as I said, that was Dr. Joel Beakey. And so with the accolades of men like that, this is obviously a book well worth picking up and investigating and a program well worth hearing.
In fact, why don't you take this time to quickly text or email or call your family, friends, and loved ones, especially if they are not a member of a church or have a lackadaisical attitude about the church, or you just believe that they should know about this broadcast, and have them tune in wherever they live on the planet Earth to ironsharpensirenradio .com.
In the foreword of this book, Dr. Richard Belcher wrote, this is the day and age of lawlessness and looseness, both outside of God's church and inside as well. How heartbreaking yet how true everywhere we look these days, it seems.
There are churches gathering in the name of Jesus Christ that more clearly resemble the sinfulness of the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting world than the Lord and Savior who purchased his beloved church with his death and atoning blood.
Today, more than ever, is a clear need for Christians to understand the nature, purpose, and functions of the local church. And that's what we're going to set out to do today. And before we do that, I want to introduce you, Jeff, to my co-host today, Reverend Buzz Taylor.
He's a retired minister of the gospel. Of course, he's never retired from evangelizing and spreading the gospel, but he is retired from the pastoral role at this point in his life. And he has been pastors in Fundamentalist Baptist, in Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, in Church of God Finley, Ohio congregations, and in a Presbyterian congregation.
And it's my honor to have you back in the studio to co-host with me today, Buzz Taylor. And if you could greet our guest, Jeff Johnson.
Well, thank you, Chris. And hello, Jeff. It's good to meet you on the air. And I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say to us today. But I want to start out by saying, Chris, you make me sound a little bit older than I am.
I'm just going by appearances, Buzz.
Yeah, I'm more than retired. I would word it that I'm just presently not pastoring.
Okay. And the book that we are discussing, Jeff, I want you to go through all of the major portions of the book, the nature, purpose, and functions. But before I go into each of those segments of the church, let me announce our email address.
And that is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
So we would love to hear from you if you have a question for our guest Jeffrey D. Johnson on the church, why bother the nature, purpose, and functions of the local church. Jeff, before we go into those three major issues regarding the church, let me ask you a question.
Do you think that this lackadaisical attitude that many evangelicals have regarding the church, could it be an overreaction to the Church of Rome and its insistence that the church is essential for salvation through the administration of the sacraments and so on?
And then you had over the years people embracing the truth, the reformational truth, that it is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, that we are indeed saved.
And therefore, you have those who truly live out those principles, but you have those who distort those principles and twist them, and perhaps are using them as a license to never really truly attach themselves to a local church.
Could that be one of the reasons anyway? Yeah, I think you're right. I think there's a big part of it, and we are reactionary type people. We see an error, and we go so far and so hard to jump into the other side, to the other error.
If you want to be balanced, we tend to overreact, and that's happening a lot in today's Christianity. We want Christianity to be authentic, and for it to be authentic, we think it has to be personal, and that's true.
By the Christianity, it's personal, it's intimate, and it has to be.
I'm sorry about that. There was just a little technical flaw there, but keep going. Sorry.
Okay, okay, that's fine. Yeah, so if we're seeking to guard against the error of formalism, and it was just Christianity is nothing but a formal... Christianity is just a personal relationship. And that's where we are today, and it seems like at least in America, Christians are like, you know, I love Jesus, but I don't really need the church.
My relationship is personal. It's real for me, and that's what matters. What matters is that I have a daily devotion with Christ, or I worship the Lord individually, and that's what matters for me to be a Christian, and so they oppose anything...
Do you think that that is largely due to the fact.
That, again with the overreacting concept, that this is indeed a vital truth, that there is a very personal, intimate, one-on-one relationship that we have with Christ, and we who believe that God has no grandchildren, if you will, that when you stand before God on the day of judgment, it's going to be you and God, and you're not going to be able to blame your parents for anything in regard to your soul or anybody else for that matter, nor can you claim the faith of your parents as a way of entering into eternal glory with Christ,.
And that truth that had been smothered by nominalism, by people being deemed Christian by virtue of their bloodline and heritage and tradition and geography, that the overreaction of taking that truth of the personal, private, intimate relationship has been distorted to what you just said, that the communion with the body of Christ then becomes unessential, and they wind up actually denying and disobeying the very Word of God that teaches them that we need a one-on-one relationship.
With God. Yeah, yeah, and biblically it's not either-or, it's both-and, and we believe that our relation with the Lord is personal. In fact, as Baptists, we would say that unless you have a personal heart, you're not going to be born again, and know the Lord intimately and personally, omitted the local body, because that's one of the very nature of the Church, is the body cultural gathering, really a body of believers that get together, so to be a part of that body in us, or in you, that the Holy Spirit that unites people, unites the believers, to be a part of Christ's body of believers, you're engrafted into the body, and let's say you're a toe, or you're a hand, or you're a foot, or a ear, to be a part of Christ, you have to be a part of the body, and that necessitates that, hey, I'm a foot, or I'm a ear, or I'm a toe, or a leg, or a part of the other bodies, or the other members that belong to Christ as well, and so it's not an either-or, it's a both-and, that to be a Christian, you're going to have an intrinsic...
Well, let's go through the major headings, and as I said before the broadcast, Buzz, you feel free to chime in whenever you have a question, but let's start with the nature.
Of the local Church. The nature of the local Church is somewhat what I've just kept saying, is the Church, by its very makeup, is something supernatural, something that's divine. That's one of the things we have to realize, it's not like a bunch of Christians gather around and say, hey, let's start a club, let's have dues, and let's get a president.
Yeah, you'll often hear it described as a man-made institution, and you'll often hear the phrase, I don't believe in organized religion, that kind of thing.
Yeah, as if man is the one behind this. The Church was organized by Jesus himself, he's the head of the Church, and he's the one who gives teachings, he's the one who defines what are the offices, what man must be to meet these offices, he's the one who tells, not just not to forsake the local assembly of themselves together, but he tells the saints to obey those.
We'll build my Church according to what the Church is all to be, also not only defined, but also bent in, if you would. Let's hear now a description of the culture of the local Church. The culture of the local Church is that chapter, because we're living in a day, they don't want to just tell you, you're pretty hip, cool, going there, you just feel better about yourself, and you get a cup of coffee, you spend five bucks, but you're getting more than the coffee.
They've bought into that philosophy. By the way, did you work for the PR department of Starbucks? No, no, I haven't, but it's amazing how churches have seeked philosophy.
Some of them actually have Starbucks in the sanctuary. Well, I don't know if it's exactly the.
Franchise of Starbucks, but something close. Sure, sure. Yeah, they want to appeal to the aroma, they want to make sure that the furnishers, the paint schemes, all that, they do a lot of research and making sure that everything about the aesthetics of the building, the music, everything about it creates a pretty cool experience for the customer or for the consumer, and it's amazing how pathologically that pulls people, it attracts people.
And so people are seeking to present the gospel, pleasing, the thing that we're seeking to market, or if I can use the word market, if we're going to brand ourselves, and we want to be known for something, it needs to be, and be careful that we don't allow these other secondary things to become of our ministry, we need to evangelize the law.
And I don't know if it's this cold I've been battling, but I somehow skipped over something very important here in your list of vital segments on the church,.
That's the purpose of the church. Yeah, that's very vital because if we miss, and I think a lot of churches have gone astray, and it's why a lot of people might say, hey, why don't we need the church?
Because the church has become nothing more than a social club, a place of attendance, a place of just, the nature of the church, going back to that, and the purpose of the church is to be the pillar and ground of truth.
That is the Apostle Paul's own words, that this is what the church is. So above all things else, the church has to be known for the truth, that the church is proclaiming the truth, the church is protecting the truth, guarding the truth, heralding out the truth, and that the saints are growing in the truth.
And one of the goals of the church is the sanctification of the body. The way we grow, essentially, is what will make my grandkids excited? What will make my children love church? And if I can get my kids excited about church, then I'm happy.
But what makes kids excited about church? Is it the youth ministry, or it's the facilities, or it's all kinds of other things? Rather than it being, does this church uphold the word of God? What is the confession of the church?
What does the church believe? That should be the foremost question, inquiring about, do they teach, what do they believe, and what is the quality?
Yeah, it's interesting that you said that, because I know people who are in theological harmony with you and I, who believe strongly in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, Reformed Theology, and yet who have chosen to join churches because, and they've even said this unashamedly, I just love the music program they have there.
Or they have so many activities for the kids, and they'll have a whole list of other things that take priority over what the confessional statement, if any, or the belief system of the church is.
Right. That's pretty sad, isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
It's just good music in a good location. And that's true. He's onto something, that's true. If you have good music and good location, then you'll be pretty successful.
You'll be growing something.
You're growing something, yeah. But not necessarily a biblical, solid church.
And I can recall when I had an office in the building of the church that I was a member of in New York before moving to Pennsylvania. I had an office for my work as a radio executive, and the church was getting free advertising in lieu of rent for me having this office there.
And being sometimes the only one in the building, even late at night at times, there would be knocks at the door of the church, and I'd answer it. And I can remember one particular instance where a couple were there, and they were demanding food from the pantry.
And I had to ask the woman, just out of curiosity, do you think that this is like a government institution where it's your right as a citizen to receive food and clothing from this church? I'm not understanding how you're demanding anything of the church here.
I said, do you even ever attend the worship services here? And the woman said, no, I don't. And I said, do you attend the worship services anywhere? And she said, well, yeah, I have another church that I go to.
And I said, well, why aren't you there asking them for food and clothes? And she was becoming very indignant with me. And I didn't necessarily want to start an argument with her, and I did eventually give her food, but I wanted her to recognize that the main reason that this church existed was to glorify God and to proclaim his word and to raise up disciples in that word and to draw the lost unto salvation.
And that we were not there to be some kind of a wing of the government where we would be just there to hand out food and clothes to anybody who came to the door. And she actually, even though I explained it to her, she became indignant because we didn't have any meat.
I said, we don't have a meat locker or refrigerator here that's big enough to store meat. I mean, what are you... Well, that's a problem with a lot of churches though. I mean, some people might think that I was wrong for even acting that way.
Do you think I responded okay, Jeff? No, yeah, absolutely. In fact, I think churches.
Need to make sure that although it's quite appropriate and even helpful at times for the church to help those less fortunate, the church is not called by Jesus Christ to be a welfare society for the culture.
We're not redeeming the culture around us. Our goal is not to necessarily feed the poor. Obviously, we would not need... Right. Obviously,.
The other side of that coin, as the book of James clearly tells us, that to just tell people be warm and filled and help them with no, or should I say, not help them with any assistance with physical needs would be a wickedness.
I think it's helpful too, yeah,.
To distinguish the role of the church and the role of the individual Christian. What Christians are called to do individually, it may not be the same that the local church is to do corporately. As an individual, if I see a need, I'm supposed to do all that I can to go help that need.
If it's in my ability to feed someone, to help someone, if I shut up, as the old King James says, the bowels of my compassion, there's something wrong with me. However, just to take that to the church collectively is, to me, is a lot of Christians will say, well, the church...
Well, I don't have a need. Let's take that need to the church when really the individual Christian says, what can I do to meet that need? Rather than the Christian automatically taking it to the elders and saying, hey, I found this need.
Can we, the church, help? Now, there may be a case that might be advisable, but Christians individually have a response. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's the calling of the local church as a society of believers.
And then, of course, there's also the discernment that needs to be used because you have people who just take clothing and sell it for drugs and that kind of thing.
Well, there are professional people who know exactly which churches we have, one that comes through here every now and then. And we finally just told the guy, we're not helping you at all. I mean, what we've been doing for you is not helping you at all because it's a free handout.
You're not establishing yourself anywhere.
That's why that's the last time I'm ever coming back to your church.
Yes, yes. But more than that, I mean, most churches that I've been aware of have had some kind of a program for that, whether it's a deacon's fund or something to help those who are in need. But yeah, I think the pendulum swung so far the other way that people.
Think that that is the function of the church. And before I go to the break, I just want our listeners to know that any time that anybody came to the church and politely asked for food or clothing, I would graciously allow them into the building and give them whatever I could without any grilling or inquisition being done.
I just was taken aback by this particular woman's rudeness in demanding that I get her this food and her ungrateful attitude when she realized I did not have meat. And she was basically dissatisfied with the canned goods and non-perishable food that we were offering.
But anyway, we're going to a break right now, if you'd like to join us on the air. And we do have a number of you waiting patiently to have your questions answered. But if you'd like to join us on the air as well, our email address is chrisarnson .com.
Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeffrey D. Johnson and our discussion on The Church, Why Bother?
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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostle's priority, it must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
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At Solid Ground Christian Books for helping making Iron Sharpens Iron possible. Welcome back to the program. If you just tuned us in for the last half hour and for the next 90 minutes, we are discussing The Church, Why Bother? with Jeffrey D. Johnson, the author of this book.
In studio with me is my co-host, Rev. Buzz Taylor, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com. We do have a listener, Bob in White Plains, New York, who says, How does the local church outreach to individuals who are not spiritual, don't have much faith, and are not accustomed to biblical teachings?
My wife needs a woman mentor and we cannot find a church that cares enough to reach out to her. And how does this relate to Luke 15 and the lost sheep? I need a spiritual woman from within a church to reach out and befriend her and begin a mentoring relationship in the Spirit of Christ.
What is the church's true role? The old saying, they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. This is where my wife is now. Any answer to that, Jeff?
Yeah, that's a very delicate question. And you would hold me to that even though you might not be able to find the right woman of young mothers doing anything but change diapers and other necessities and needs.
So you can't necessarily need not be making a good individual need, but it's not that would say this is how discipleship works. It does tell the older women's disciples, the younger women, to love their husbands and to be faithful in their homes.
So you see that command there. So you do want to find a church that you see the older, more mature women taking on that role. That would be a sign of healthy members. But again, if you can't find that, don't just use that as excuse to go to a local church altogether.
Would you say that, obviously, he needs to be more clear with the leaders of that church that that need is out there? He has to make them aware that his wife is in need of this mentor.
That's right. Every church, I'm a pastor of a church, and every pastor had satisfied need not getting mad, but no one knew about it until they left. And so that's very frustrating on the church staff.
Sometimes you just have to come out.
Sometimes our telepathy just doesn't work that well.
And I know that some people, they fear giving the appearance of being overly intrusive, and they would rather have the person ask for something like that rather than giving the appearance of butting into somebody's private business and that kind of a thing.
Because I know the opposite is true, that there are many people who complain that you have church leaders who are, in their opinion, I'm not saying this is necessarily true, but in their opinion, they're nosy and busybodies, etc.
It's none of your business to be poking around asking questions like that, that kind of thing. And I'm not necessarily saying that this is the case in every circumstance. And by the way, as I am speaking, Bob from White Plains shoots another email with a question or a statement.
I have asked the pastors and nothing ever came of it. They were actually defensive in response. Some older woman I asked within the church said, oh, let me pray about it. And again, nothing ever came of it.
Well, I guess, wouldn't you say, I mean, first of all, I'm getting the impression Bob is not a member of this church. Would you say that that's a legitimate reason, even if he may be in accord with their theology, or perhaps he's not even at a place where he knows what biblically sound theology is?
But would that be a significant reason or a sufficient reason to move on and look elsewhere for a church home?
Well, I would say, I would, without knowing more about the scenario, it's hard to make judgment there. What they're judging a church by is how well do I connect, how well are the people. It's a great place to find some special friendship there.
And when they can't find that, they move on. And I think that's a tragedy. What if you have a church, it's a biblically solid, Bible-believing church that loves the Lord, teaching the truth, but it's only 10 people.
And there could be, and there are small churches, very small. And you go there, and there's not anybody your age category that you can go there and connect with. Well, does that mean that that church is not sufficiently, because you can't meet your best friend?
Because, or at least not necessarily best friend, but a real close friend, doesn't necessarily mean there's some inadequacy in the local church. So we've got to be careful that we don't place a connection and involvement, but we've got to make sure that that's not what we're looking for in a church.
And when I can't find that, then we're out to be that, friendly to others, to teach, and that would be something that these other issues.
And Bob's emailing continually as I'm speaking. He basically is, he's basically indicating that they are not keeping their word because they're assuring him. On one hand, I will certainly get somebody to call you to discuss this, and then it never happens.
So that's the kind of thing that you really have to sit down with them and say, look, I've been trying to be patient, and I'm just asking you, please, why isn't anybody following through on your promises?
And that kind of a thing. I mean, obviously, those are legitimate concerns to address a church leader about if they are promising you and assuring you that they are going to follow through with something, and it never happens.
Yeah, you know, and Bob may have a real need there, because one of the things the church is meant to do, and I think that this is lost, I mean, like you're going to the movie to come, and they give a little lesson, and they sing some songs.
They have a service. They are not wanting to have one another have healthy fellowship and healthy dialogue and interaction among its members where they're going to be helping each other in their needs.
If there's not that healthy fellowship going on, and if there's no real pastoral oversight, and that means getting involved in people's lives there, then there may be a real deficiency in the church. That would be something to really consider if this church is really seeking to love one another and a member meets the role.
Before we go on to another listener's.
Question, Bob just is insistent that we get Luke 15 applied to the situation, if you could.
15. I'd be reminded what...
And while our guest is looking that up, I'm going to just remind our listeners of our email address. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.
And my listener is asking, because he hears me coughing in the background on occasion, coming since I'm pressing the mute button when I cough and it's coming through on Buzz's microphone, but he's asking me if I'm smoking during this interview.
No, I'm not smoking. I do not smoke. I was a little levity, I'm sure. But anyway...
Yeah, that's the parable of the lost sheep. He brought that up in the parable of the lost quarry. We've got to be clear on that. This is speaking about the Lord here. We've got to make sure we would say there's no distinction between rich and poor.
Distinction, we want to minister and reach, evangelize. The Bible also says, you know, if they reject you two or three times, it has nothing to do with them. So the Lord knows who really belonged to Him, and He can go after those and make sure He finds them.
But for us, we're not privy to actually who really belonged to the Lord or not. So we're commanded to go for the swine. And so in the same case, we want to evangelize all. Well, thank you, Bob. And by the way, you are getting a free copy of The Church,.
Why Bother? Compliments of Free Grace Press. So we hope that you are blessed by that book. Make sure that we have your complete mailing address so we can get that out to you as soon as possible. We'd also like to thank again our dear friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.
That's C-V for Cumberland Valley, B-B-S, Bible Book Service, dot com. And we want to thank them because they are always very gracious enough to send out these free books that people win at no cost to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.
So we want to thank Patty and Todd Jennings over at cvbbs .com for their faithfulness in sponsoring Iron Trump and Zion Radio. There is something that you have repeated a couple of times that I would like to address.
I agree with you that what a church teaches in regarding to the Word of God should be first and foremost, you know, a priority when choosing a church to join yourself to. And the obviously, the godliness of the leaders, the character of the leaders, and those who are in membership and good standing, that they reflect, you know, the life of Christ and so on.
But don't you think that there are perhaps on more occasions than either you and I would care to admit? I know, just to put it bluntly, Pastor Jeff, I know people who are in lockstep with me theologically, but who are raving idiots.
When I say idiots, that's a poor choice of words, jerks, who are jerks, who are just horrible people. I mean, and maybe that's an exaggeration when I say horrible. I don't mean involved in any illicit, scandalous behavior.
But I mean, I've met pastors that agree with me theologically who are rude, who are ungracious, uncharitable, selfish, proud. I mean, do you think that if I'm looking for a church, this is the only one nearby that agrees with me theologically, that I'm bound to join a church where the leaders.
Reflect that kind of character? No, not at all. In fact, we have a clear scripture mandate talking about the qualifications of leaders. One of the qualifications is one who's not proud or arrogant or boastful.
You know, and so it's not exemplary in these as not qualified, not just by man standards, but not qualified. You want to make sure also we like to distinguish between, you know, orthodoxy and orthopraxy, you know.
One is in theology, one's in the mind, and one's in the hands. But the scriptures put those things together. And so if someone really believes the truth, it will be evident by his head knowledge. And of course, it becomes more.
Difficult because you may have a church where those close to the pastor, his fellow elders, deacons, many of the members, they may view him in a completely different way than the public does because he may treat them differently.
You know, he may be very kind, and it may be even a facade, or it may be genuine. He may be just a favoritism. But anyway, that's just obviously the world that makes things more complicated than we would like them to be at times.
Yeah.
But we might as well go on to another question here from one of our listeners. Deborah in Staten Island, New York. What is one of the most important roles of the local church, and why?
Well, the church is growing as unity with one another, and that takes place.
I think a lot of the criticism that comes to the church, though, is the result of people not realizing that they are there to worship God through the congregation, that this is the worshiping community.
And I know that in many, many cases, the attitude has become, what's in it for me? Because you were talking about the marketing earlier. That's exactly the way that the gospel is presented so often. You know, like, I have this great need, so I lost my boyfriend or something like that.
Well, if you come to Jesus, that need will be met. And then they come to the church, and they continue right on expecting those needs to be met. What's in it for me? But if we view it as the worshiping community, I think that a lot of the other things would fall in line.
A lot of the criticisms would stop. We would realize we're all in this.
Together. Yeah, and rather than saying what the church is doing wrong, rather it's like, how do I help the church? What is my role in making the church have a more friendly atmosphere? How can I help welcome the visitors?
How can I encourage this older lady? How can I encourage this person that's just lost her husband or his wife? How can I be a means of encouragement.
To their needs? Go ahead. It's also an awesome thought to think that, you know, not only when we worship, are we part of a community that is worshiping around the world, but we also fit into history as part of the worshiping community that exists at this particular time.
We've got our heritage of worshipers that have come before us. We're part of a so much larger picture than ourselves. I think this is primarily what's lost because of the, well, actually I came to Christ in the 70s and even then, you know, it was me and Jesus.
You know,.
Listen to our songs, you know. Well, back in the 70s and even before then, our culture has gone to individualism. We find our identity, our purpose, and the individual self-expression. So it's all about what shoes I wear and what jacket I have and the car that I drive or my house, you know.
I find my self-worth in things that set me, what makes me separate, what makes me an individual from the whole. That's where I get my identity. Well, God tells us to find our value, our worth, our identity in Him.
And so we need to realize that if I'm going to find it with God and in addition to that, a personal relationship with the body of Christ. Well, we could say, hey, part of who I am is I'm a member of this church.
Part of who I am is I'm a member of the body of believers. That is my identity. And that's what's being lost. And so now people go to church and it's all about how do I get help. Congregation as one of the many parts of the whole.
We have other listeners patiently waiting for their questions to be answered. But we are going to a break right now. And by the way, Deborah in Staten Island, you are also getting a free copy of the book, The Church, Why Bother?
And anybody else who'd like to join us on the air, you can shoot us an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. I do want to mention now before I forget that we apologize to our Canadian and overseas listeners that this offer of the free books is only for United States residents because of the shipping charges involved.
We give away a lot of books on Iron Sharpens Iron and our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cannot be stuck with an enormous shipping bill every month for the overseas and Canadian shipments.
So we still want to hear from you no matter where you live on the planet Earth with your question for our guest today. And please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
And you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. And that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we're going to be right back with Jeffrey Johnson and the Church, Why Bother?
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arms, and if you just tuned us in for the last hour and the next hour to come, we have as our guest today Jeffrey D. Johnson, and we are discussing his book, The Church, Why Bother?
And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. And please include your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA, and you may remain anonymous if it's a personal and private question.
We do have Brian in Gardeners, Pennsylvania. He asks, or it's a combination of both a comment and a question, I believe there was a time when the local church had a much more important status than it does today.
The local church today has become more of a feel-good place, a child care center, and a place to get coffee and donuts. Why do you suppose we hear very little from the pulpit regarding matters of importance such as abortion, gay marriage, liberty and freedom, politics, etc.?
A very interesting observation and question, and obviously there's going to be some disagreements on especially that last item, politics, whether it belongs a matter of discussion from the pulpit. And of course there are things that are spoken of in the Bible that are involved in the political realm, but not necessarily political issues.
There are issues that transcend politics, like the murder of unborn children and so on. But if you could comment.
On that, Jeff? Well, the first part of this I think is spot on in the sense that sadly churches have become irrelevant in their attempt to be relevant. They want to be more, officially they want to grow, compromise by just giving out coffee to the whole council, not just...
There has been even differences of opinion among guests I've had on this program. Guests who would be in lockstep doctrinally, but who disagreed on the role of politics from the pulpit and in the local church.
Where do you draw the line on banning any political discussion or commentary from the pulpit? I mean, obviously, as I mentioned earlier, the murder of unborn children and things like that, the endorsing and celebration of homosexuality that goes on in our culture, that is becoming in some ways legally binding upon the citizens here.
It's a frightening day in which we live. Obviously, perhaps that's an exaggeration with some of our brothers in Christ actually literally being tortured and murdered overseas. But if you could comment on that.
Yeah, I mean, I think we have to be careful.
That we separate... I just recently preached to Asia Minor, who likely possibly could have been expelled from Rome as blame to fire all the Christians and Jews. And some believe that Peter is addressing that they're now deported.
And if that's the case, I mean, are you talking about people who have been victimized by their government? Regardless if that's the case or not, they're still being persecuted by the local areas. And what he's telling them to do is submit.
So there is a role of preaching about how to handle government. But the role is, we do not, that's not commanding us to, and that's the key, you have to obey God. There is a role of teaching, and my Christian values affects who I vote for.
Even if you know the person very well, perhaps he's even a member of the congregation, and you know his walk very closely, his walk with the Lord and all that, and you...
Right, I mean, a pastor stands in two rounds, does he not? As an individual, he has the right to vote for the people that they stand for on a personal, practical level. But that's something different than getting behind the Pope.
I think we should...
Some have hurled the accusation at me and some of my guests in the past who took a very similar view to what you're taking. They have accused us of following in the footsteps of the church in Germany during the rise of the Nazis, and they will look to the fact that the church in Germany was largely silent about the grotesque and wicked ideology of the Nazi party, and the fact that they were rounding up Jews and others, and putting them in camps, and having them executed and slaughtered.
And of course, there are some who paid the price. The minority of professing Christians who did stand against these kinds of things, Dietrich Bonhoeffer being one who theologically you and I would have a lot of problems with, but he obviously was a very brave man, and a man who lived and died for his convictions.
But if you could comment on that, how do you respond?
I think that comparing apples and oranges together, obviously we would agree that the church is to stand against. However, that's a huge difference. Apples and oranges, when you say that, and then when you start looking at two different Republican nominees, this is who I'm going to promote behind the pulpit, that's a personal issue that is more subjective, and you're saying God's behind this.
Doesn't God tell you audibly who to vote for?
Well, there's been whole denominations that think that. I didn't mention any names.
I think there may be a gas leak in my studio, I'm sorry. We do have another listener, and by the way, Brian, you are also getting a free copy of The Church, Why Bother?, and our next listener who has written us, he is receiving the last copy.
We have available. Ralph in Lynbrook, Long Island, says, with so many varieties of worship, how can we guard against schism in the local church?
That's a very good question, and I don't know of any church that doesn't worship the Lord.
Yes, yes.
And it's sad, it is sad. I think there does need to be, and that's really the real, I think, the renegational, I think that's really the...
Worship versus entertainment, worship versus performance, that kind of thing.
That kind of thing, right, and I think one of the things that worship is not lost in individual expression of worship, but what we're being encouraged by is hearing the voices. So it's not just hearing a lead vocalist really jam out, and musicians up there, and the right instruments really in harmony.
That's really worship and assist worship, but real worship is congregation singing out, and they're made to be congregation.
And it's interesting, when I interviewed Dr. T. David Gordon years ago on the old Iron Sharpens Iron, on his book, Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns, the reverse of what you said, but stating the same fact, is that much of the worship music in the church today cannot be sung appropriately and properly by congregations.
The music is actually designed more for solo artists and that kind of a thing, very, very often, not all the time, but very often.
Right, and where we want to focus on, worship should be like hearing your neighbor sing, and then your voice is coming together. And the Bible tells us that we may admonish and encourage one another through song hymns, lifted up by the voices.
Well, thank you, Ralph, for that excellent question, and you are receiving our last copy of The Church, Why Bother? So thank you very much for submitting that.
Well, if we do realize that we are the worshiping community, we have to remember that the community isn't just the young people, but it does include the young people. And, you know, I think we need to strive to where all can be included.
You know, if a young person can't sing Amazing Grace, there might be something wrong.
Yeah, I am very disturbed by the way that the church has become a youth cult. It seems as if the worship services are purposely designed to drive out older people, hoping that they'd wind up in some Christian ghetto for senior citizens, where they're all in one church worshiping until they go home to glory, so that they can have the freedom to do whatever they want to do with the musical instruments and the worship styles.
And it seems very selfish, very prideful. It seems just totally, it seems to lack, totally lack compassion for the senior citizens who very often have a wealth of godly wisdom that's being ignored, that's being squandered, and all in favor of the numeric growth that is brought by young people coming through the doors of the church.
Well, that's right. Starbucks is, every corporation, their main target is the youth. That's how they have a future, is get the youth attached. And two, I mean, back on the youth ministry, and the youth ministry is based upon having a gym, which will follow.
And that's what, you know, the kids are really driving toward industry in this area, but that's what the secular church has come. It's come into an industry, and it's all about church growth of all ages.
We have a question from CJ Lindenhurst, Long Island, who asks, in according to your understanding of ecclesiology and eschatology, do you believe that the church is the fulfillment of Old Testament Israel?
That's a whole subject of its own. Is that in the book? That's a whole subject of its own.
That is, but I have a, I mean, I have a belief on that. But yet, church doesn't replace faith in Jesus Christ. That's the true Israel. That's the true child of God, is not one who has genetics on his side, not one who is just into the family of God.
That includes Jews, but it also includes Gentiles, intended.
And I would definitely like to pursue an interview on that book at some point in the near future.
Yeah, I would love to.
And thank you very much, CJ. And sorry, we don't have any more books to give you. But keep looking out for notifications for an interview with Pastor Jeff on the, what was the title of that book?
The Kingdom of God.
Well, now, Jeff, we've been talking about the church and so forth, the various aspects of it. And I'm reminded of, I mean, this has been a very important subject to me, having pastored a number of churches.
I've always been very church-centered as far as, I believe, you know, the body that Christ said he would build is his church. And I haven't heard as much about the controversy of late, but I know years ago, there was a lot more controversy between church and parachurch.
Could you address that a little bit?
Yeah, in fact, if you could address it when we return from the break, we're going to go to our final station break right now. And we'll just keep in mind that we're going to launch into the discussion on the parachurch versus local church when we return.
Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, if you have any questions for Pastor Jeff. And we look forward to hearing from you after these messages, so don't go away.
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See the Long Island Galleries display ad at ironsharpensironradio .com. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final half hour of today's broadcast with Jeffrey D. Johnson. We're discussing his book, The Church, Why Bother?
And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-N at gmail .com. Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co-host, asked you before the break about the parachurch phenomenon.
There are churches and pastors and leaders that are vehemently opposed to any and all parachurch organizations, and then there are obviously varying degrees of acceptance and affirmation or disagreement.
After that, you have those who would say that they love many parachurch organizations as long as they are under the leadership of a local church or something to that effect. But if you could comment.
Yeah, that's an important thing, because, and I wouldn't personally, but we've got to recognize what they are. They're a parachurch, and there is a distinction between a parachurch ministry and a local church.
Dangerous about a parish is that they can get involved in a college church ministry that's on the campus, and they look at and treat that as their church. They begin to look at the parish and all their financial givings, and that Christ is not the one who organized the parachurch ministry.
He organized and established the local church, set up its office barriers, subjective, in any way or shape or form.
And obviously, there are mavericks and lone wolves out there who are an authority unto themselves. And in this day and age of the internet, which, like all other progresses in invention, have been used both by God in powerful and wonderful and beautiful ways, and also by Satan as a way of spreading falsehood and getting people distracted and sucked into all kinds of deviant behavior that they otherwise would not have been participating in.
That's right.
If the church would function the way God designed it, it would really eliminate a lot of that. And a lot of people, they'll start their own home church or they'll start their own organization. It's because they don't get approved or accepted by the local church.
The church is, you know, to be called into ministry, one of the callings is when you're calling evaluated by the church in examination and approval by God's people. And a lot of times, men won't receive that.
They won't. And so they just leave the church altogether and start their own thing as if they don't need the local church as a stamp of approval.
What do you think about the home church movement in general? I mean, I don't know how familiar you are with it. I know some people who are in the home church movement. I disagree with them on their insistence that it is the biblical model.
But there are some who, in spite of that difference, I have had great fellowship with them and have had them on the program as guests. But even they, the people that I know personally involved in the home church movement, even they say there's a lot of mischief being wrought in the home church movement and a lot of horrible things happening.
But maybe you could explain what we're even talking about to our listeners, if you want.
Yeah. Well, about five years before meeting in a home or meeting in a building, we do believe, however, gather together corporately in one place. That's why we need buildings, large enough space for the saints to gather together in one body.
Now, you could argue, well, a church is more productive and more... That's a whole different conversation. But to say that a church has to meet in a home to be biblical is very unbiblical because the location or the building facilities is something that...
It's like saying, do we want a big pulpit or a small pulpit? That's not... That doesn't make any consequence. Afraid of... Not in all of the churches.
And by a lot of people, home church means is that we don't have elders, which most of them are hypocritical because there's usually someone raising up among the group that's working like an elder who's teaching primarily and is teaching and kind of the authority figure.
But nevertheless, it's usually someone who has a problem submitting to elders that'll... You say, hey, we need to... I'll just be my own pastor and I'll start a home church and invite their friends to come and be a part of their local church gathering.
And I think that's very dangerous.
Well, this is something I went through some years back. You already heard at the beginning of the first hour when Chris was wasting all that time talking about all the various churches I have pastored.
All the various churches that ran them out of town.
Let's just say I've been around the block. I would like to say that I've settled down since then. He was talking about ancient history.
He has ceased being blown to and fro from every window.
I don't get peeled off the ceiling anymore. But as I was leaving one denominational Pentecostal church, of course, I had kind of been growing out of the theology of it anyway. But when I left, I made sure that all my friends from that church understood because we were starting a church in my home, not a home church, but starting a church in the home.
That I was not doing it as a rebellious thing because I had greater manifestations of the spirit or anything like that. It was because I am an ordained minister and I was doing it as an ordained minister.
And as soon as I found out there was another similar church to what I was starting, we stopped and joined that church and worked through it because it was already much better established.
Well, the same scenario with me and it wasn't seeking to be unsubmissive to any authority that was over me at the time. I was looking for just a solid church that preached the gospel and there wasn't one that I could find in the area that I could worship.
There was a need to start a church, but we were trying to start a church that would function. And we did it in the home because of that. So there's nothing wrong with churches meeting in the home, being small.
There's nothing inherently wrong with being a small church.
But as you started today's discussion, unfortunately many people probably weren't with us at the beginning of the first hour, but as you started the whole discussion, of course, what is the need for the church?
Is the church important? And we've all spoken to people who have claimed that they don't really need it. It's me and Jesus. We're doing just fine without it. And I don't need it. And of course, that would always be my first thing is to say, well, who are you submissive to?
Well, I don't have anybody to be submissive to because I'm not part of the organized church or whatever. And that's the whole problem, you know? It's like, why would Paul tell Titus to go appoint elders in Crete if he didn't expect us to be under the authority of those elders and so forth?
So a lot of it is rebellion.
Right. New Testament is re-gathering. They took that for granted. In fact, most of the books are written to churches and how to conduct themselves in the local church. I mean, so how do you fulfill most of the commands if you're outside the local gathering?
How do you take communion if you're not a part of the local body? So that's part of the Christian DNA is to be a member and held accountable. In fact, I tell our members as they're joining what you're doing, you're agreeing to be held accountable and to hold other people accountable to live godly lives.
And even when you say accountable, when I was in a reformed church, a very good church, this was up in Maine, we had a person who, we weren't doing enough evangelism, so he kind of took it upon himself.
He was going to do evangelism, you know? And he started doing all his own kind of stuff with his own ministry. And he wanted us to get involved and wonder why we wouldn't get involved. He did not have the blessing of the church because this guy would go into the park and yell at everybody because they drank beer instead of presenting the gospel.
And it's like, we do not give this man official sanction, but yet he was going to go ahead and do it anyway. And that's what I started realizing, even our evangelism needs to be somehow controlled by the eldership, by the authority of the church to make sure that we aren't some avant-garde person out there doing it totally our way.
And the elders of the church were getting tired of being yelled at in the park. But that's an interesting fact though, because we are all called to be evangelists. Where does the freedom and responsibility where we as individual priests, we are the priesthood of believers, where does the liberty get the line drawn where we have to say, wait, no, I have to have the local church involved in what I'm doing here.
And under that heading, you have a lot of issues. You have even churches that disagree over the ordinances. You have churches that will say that only the leaders of a local church are to administer baptism and the Lord's supper.
You have other churches who say, well, there's nothing that specifically spells that out in the scripture. I, if I'm on vacation in Italy, if I lead a lost person to Christ and that person says, I'd like to obey Christ and be baptized, I have the liberty and some would even say the duty to baptize that person.
And of course, another church would put that person under discipline for doing that without the oversight of the church. If you could comment on that.
Yeah, yeah, that's, I can see both sides. I can see one, look at Philip in the Ethiopian eunuch and we're gonna get people baptized as soon as possible. And I actually hold that baptism should be as closest to one's profession as possible.
I do, I do as well.
Yeah, I do hold that. And because of that, I see that the church is the one that's committed to guard, protect and to execute these ordinances. And so to be properly done, I believe members need to be submitted to a local church and take communion there and to be baptized into the church by the church.
And so I personally, or the ordained elders have to be the actual ones that do the emerging, even though I think that's probably best. It does have to be done in the oversight. You know, the oversight of the elders.
Could a woman properly baptize a woman in the church? Say the mother of a daughter or even vice versa, the adult daughter baptizing her mom when she comes to Christ. If the pastors I'm saying give approval to such a thing during the worship service and so on, or wherever the pastors or the leaders give approval, should they be giving approval to begin with for a woman to administer baptism?
Yeah, you're going to get me in trouble. Well, I don't have a personal... I wouldn't die on this hill. This is not a place that I have a position. This walks steady. It's like, okay, this is worth that.
I would say, you know, I think it's bad. Is it? And maybe it's what's best evil in and of itself as her daughter.
And of course, you could even have a woman involved in a prison ministry or something, baptizing a female inmate.
That would be better. If you've ever preached in a woman's prison, that's better.
Yeah, that's right. There's a wisdom issues. And you have to look at the whole scenario and all the things that are involved. You may have someone who's terrified of water and the mother can process that.
There are a lot of things to consider.
How about the Lord's Table or Holy Communion, Eucharist, however you want to phrase it, Lord's Supper, being brought to hospitals and nursing homes and other places where someone cannot attend the service.
I know pastors who participate in that, and I know pastors who strongly object to that. Well, what do you think about that?
Well, as long as you can take the church with you. We were so small at one time, we had one of our members in a nursing home. So once a month, we met on a Wednesday night in the nursing home's chapel facilities.
So this member of our church can at least be a part of our worship gathering once a month. And we decided to do our communion there. Now we fenced the table off. So we have what you call a closed communion where we invite believers visiting us in church to take communion.
We fenced it off to non-believers. But with that said, we would, our church, be a part of communion. And I think that was a nice gesture, but it's still done within the local church. I have a problem with Bible studies randomly, having a Bible study, not a church, but they're just, they say, why don't we do communion?
That's where I would strongly oppose something like that taking place.
That's like trying to become a small church. Within the church, yeah.
Right, that's right, right.
And I want to make sure that before we run out of time, you get to every area that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners. So why don't I give you that opportunity now to unburden your heart and make sure that's done.
And then we can take the remaining time, if there is any, to answer any listener questions if they come in or what have you.
Well, thank you, Chris and Buzz, for more needed in the day that we're living in than a love for God. There's people who say, I think that's kind of like saying, I love my wife's face. She's beautiful in the face, but I really care less about her body.
That would be pretty insulting to my wife if I did not also love her from head to toe. And how much more is it insulting to Christ Jesus to say, I love you, but I don't love your body. I don't love the people that you love.
I don't love the people. And I firmly believe that the Christian's life, bringing God glory, such a integrated part of our life. We're not just attending church, but we're actually true members. We're actually seeking to contribute, help minister, hold other people accountable, be in submission to the, and bringing my Christian life into subjection to the oversight of this wonderful thing that Christ himself has in the actual world.
I really want you to give a word to those who have been burned, seriously burned by churches. They have mental and emotional scars. There could be innumerable reasons why this occurs. It could be they were in a cult.
It could be that they were in a church that behaved like a cult, that a really authoritarian leadership that really crushed the spirit of the person. It could be that they were molested by a leader in the church or any number of things that could have happened.
And it could have happened several times in different churches. What do you do to these people? What can you say to these people who. I've just had it with the church and I've met a number, a lot of people in this category.
I've had it with the church. I will visit from time to time. I am never again going to put myself in the place of being held accountable to people that ruined my lives, destroyed my reputation, unnecessarily slandered me, got me fired from my job, had me in counseling for sexual abuse and all that kind of thing.
Because there are churches out there like that. There are churches, leaders that have been abusive in their leadership model and practices. Well, I don't need the church. We have an unbiblical response to actually more error.
We have to say, well, God, that is what's biblical-based church that is not abusive, but is loving and kind and nurturing. And it's going to be a church that I can bring my children into and not worry about them being.
I would encourage them not to give up in their search for a church, not to give up on the importance of the local church. And obviously, there's going to be trust issues that's going to have to be regained.
But begin to pray, Lord, pray about this and begin to look. I have people in our church that told me they've been abused by churches so much that don't look for them to be joining. They were just going to come and they've been coming.
And it's just like, it's over a couple of years, they're slowly, slowly letting their guard down. And you can see it happening. And I think there's healing going on. And I think there's trust used by to not swing into a, I will have nothing to do with a church.
That is awesome.
Yeah, we shouldn't reject Christ because of Judas.
And what do you say to someone? And in fact, I got a email years ago on the old Iron Sharpens Iron from a listener I had in Japan. A woman who was a Mooney who had come to Christ and had left the Mooney cult.
Her and her husband who were both in an arranged marriage left the Mooney cult and she was starving for a church. And she actually started to attend the worship services of a local Catholic church, which is the only church in her area in Japan, which is a very tiny Christian population.
But what do you say to a person when they have nowhere to go?
Yeah. Well, in a case like that, I would be very careful to turn into that church. I'm responsible for what the influence that church may have on my children. So it's one thing for an individual to kind of, with great spiritual discernment, be able to weed out the error that may or may not be healthy.
But you've got to be careful bringing in a wife or your children into such a scenario. There may be cases like some people are in prison. Of course, God's going to meet your needs. But most of us are not in those extreme scenarios.
Most of us are in communities that there's plenty of churches and we're upset we can't find a church because of secondary concerns are not being met. My felt needs are being not met or I've been personally wounded by Sister Joy over there who made me feel bad.
Now I can't go to church anymore because she made me feel bad. You know, most people are not going to church because of some petty issue or some unresolved personal issue when reality is to God. Because I would say you need to find the best church you possibly can find.
And if you cannot find it, there's a strong way to move.
And that's where we have to leave it because we're out of time. And I know that your church website for Grace Bible Church is gbcconway .com gbc for Grace Bible Church conway .com and that's in Conway, Arkansas for anybody listening who needs a church.
And I want to thank you so much, Pastor Jeff, for being on the program. I look forward to having you back very soon.
Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Buzz.
Thank you, Buzz. Thank you for everybody. Thank you to everybody who listened and sent in questions. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
We look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.