March 6, 2018 Show with Carl Trueman on “The Church of Christ: A Treatise on the Nature, Powers, Ordinances, Discipline, and Government of the Christian Church by James Bannerman” PLUS Earl Blackburn on “Jesus Loves the Church & So Should You”

The Church of Christ and the Need for Biblical Ecclesiology

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this sixth day of March 2018, our second broadcast with our new network, First Love Radio, and we are so excited about this new partnership for the sake of the gospel and the cause of Christ and the furtherance of his kingdom.

Today we are delighted to have two guests on the program. The first guest is Dr. Carl Truman, who is returning as a guest here, and I always love to interview Dr. Carl Truman, and I always love to be there present when he is preaching or lecturing somewhere.

Dr. Truman holds the Paul Woolley Chair of Church History and is a professor of church history at Westminster Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania. He's the author of more than a dozen books. He's a regular contributor to FirstThings .com.

He's an ordained minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination and a pastor of the Cornerstone Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Ambler, Pennsylvania. Today we are having the long-awaited interview that we were hoping to have for quite a while now, the interview on the book The Church of Christ by James Bannerman, which is published by The Banner of Truth, and which Dr. Truman wrote the foreword for, and it's our honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Dr. Carl Truman. It's great to be here, Chris. Thanks for having me on. Oh, it's my pleasure, and I'm going to right away give our email address for our listeners if they would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter.

Let's suppose you disagree with your pastor on a matter, or you're a pastor and you disagree with your own denomination or something. We can understand that you would want to remain anonymous, and we will grant you that request, but otherwise, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Well, first of all, Dr. Truman, why is it that you wanted to contribute to this book by James Bannerman, the 19th century Scotsman and a minister in the Free Church of Scotland? Why did you want to lend your foreword to this book?

What sets this book apart as a book about how one is to conduct themselves.

In the Church of Christ? Well, I want to read a portion of your foreword.

To this book. The great thing about Bannerman's The Church of Christ is that it will stimulate the reader to reflect on the nature of the Church in a profoundly biblical and historically sensitive way.

At a point in history when the Church in the West is finding herself for the first time in 1 ,500 years to be marginal and often unwelcome, clear thinking on the nature and purpose of the Church is vital.

I do not think there is a better way to sharpen one's thinking on these matters than thoughtful and deep reflection upon this work of James Bannerman. Well, the book is primarily, and this is 1 ,009 pages of information in this book, a massive hardcover by James Bannerman.

The purpose of the book is to be a treatise on nature, powers, ordinances, discipline, and government of the Christian Church. And, well, why don't you start off with a summary of what Bannerman is teaching us that the Bible.

Has to say about the nature of the Church itself? I think what Bannerman does is, first of all, he starts with the biblical material. What is the Church? See it against the background of corporately. What is it that defines the average Christian?

What is it that Bannerman wants to put wherever? And that provides the foundation for Bannerman then to go on and discuss how the Church should relate to modern man, even the professed Christian. I don't know if it is.

Entirely rooted in the fact that one of the things that the Reformation did, I'm assuming you would agree, that although it didn't strip the Church of all its power, it stripped the Church of any superstitious or unbiblical power that the Church of Rome deemed it to have.

In fact, salvation is absolutely only possible because of the Church and through the Church and by the ministers and ordinances of the Church, according to Rome. Now, do you think that because of the fact that the Reformers did rightly diminish the powers of the Church in their teaching, according to the Scriptures, that that, unfortunately, whenever you have true things and freedoms in the hands of sinful men, that people took that and ran with it way too far?

And we have come to the place where there are Christians who claim to be Bible-believing Christians, who claim to be born again, who find no need at all for the Church. They think that they are just fine by themselves.

In fact, they may have even had some very horrible experiences in the Church, so they don't want to look for any Church. They don't want to be attached to any Church. Do you think that that has its roots where I assumed they might be found, or do you think that there's another reason for this?

Well, that's what you referred to in my first part of my article, with the language of power.

Right.

That instead of Church, Church power comes and what that is.

That's a lot off my mind. I don't have to put mine in the trash tomorrow.

It certainly is. I would say it's a fashion crime, but it's not sinful. The Word of God gives me no power to dictate. But the Word of God does mean that, as a minister, say that there is a shift in how the Church understands the internal combustion engine of the motor car.

One of the things the Reformation does do is create the possible. It did not exist in the Middle Ages. It was just the one Church in Western Europe. A proliferation of denominations that generates choice, and that allows Christians to wander from one Church to another, if they wish, to treat the Church as a consumer commodity for them to what you get really bad experience.

At the bottom line, what one has to say to what Scripture teaches. And really, you should find yourself sitting under the preacher. And if you're sitting at home on Sunday, even if you're watching, you know, John Piper online or something like that.

Do you think that Christ is supernaturally present amongst the gathered people on that special day of worship in a way that he is not when they are just in a diner having coffee?

Yes, so we would want for the three to gather together.

Well, the ordinances are another important aspect of the Church. And I'm assuming that Bannerman, although he would have obviously some disagreements with Baptists like me, since he was a member and a minister in the Free Church of Scotland, I'm assuming he would believe there were only two ordinances, the Lord's Supper and Baptism.

Yes, yes.

We have some listeners who are already waiting anxiously to have their questions asked and answered by you. And I have to enlarge the first because the font is microscopic and then I have to enlarge the second because I have to enlarge the first because I have to.

The Church as the Body of Christ and the Necessity of Visible Membership

Okay, let's see. We have Pastor William Hill in Newport, Tennessee. Do you know of a study guide for this book? Do you think it is something that is needed? Who may be the best to write it?

I don't know of a study guide. What I would say is a guide printed. But that is an excellent question.

Great. Well, let's see. William has one more question. And once again, I have to enlarge his font.

In fact, time for a checkup with your eye specialist.

Yes, because I'm also wearing reading glasses now and I still have to enlarge the font. This book is huge. I ask about the study guide for precisely that reason. We live in a social media world and I wonder if the average churchgoer will spend the time reading it without significant guidance.

Almost certainly the average churchgoer will not read it. And that's what I think.

Well, thank you, Pastor Hill. Keep listening to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio and keep spreading the word about it there in Tennessee. We have Joe in Slovenia.

Wow.

Dear brothers Chris and Carl, thank you so very much for your faithful service to our Lord and his church. What are the steps we need to take to remove those aspects found in most evangelical churches that are extra-church, non-church additions, that prohibit or limit her proclamation of Jesus Christ and his gospel?

Thank you for yet another great conversation.

Wow, that's a difficult question to answer. The ordinary people are well-meaning.

Well, thank you, Joe in Slovenia. Keep listening to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio and spreading the word in Slovenia and beyond. We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks,. I know that this would probably be one of those case-by-case situations because I'm sure that there is a wide variety of house churches that differ on theology and many other areas of importance within the church, but I was wondering what your thoughts were in general about the house church movement.

While they seem to have a very biblical point as to their existence, they also seem to be running into some serious heretical problems here and there among them.

Yeah, I'm not drawing. My guess is...

Well, thank you so much, RJ, in White Plains, New York. And by the way, I want to let all three of our listeners who wrote in questions, the first three anyway, I want to let you all know that you have won a free copy of this very large and very expensive book, The Church of Christ by James Bannerman.

As I said, this is a thousand and nine pages and it retails for $50. And even on sale through the Banner of Truth, it's $45. And the Banner of Truth has been kind enough to give us these three copies to give away.

So you three folks have each won a copy. If you already have it and you want to be merciful to another listener so that they can win it, that's up to you, because you could obviously give it as a gift through someone.

But please give me your full mailing address, all three of you, so that we can have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship those copies out to you free of charge to you and I. It's going to cost an arm and a leg for them to ship these things out because they weigh about 50 pounds each.

That's an exaggeration, but it's a big book. Anyway, well, thank you so much. And we are going to our break right now and Carl Truman will be back to answer more of your questions after this station break.

And if anybody would like to join those who are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Carl Truman. I am Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastors' Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastors' Study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastors' Study,.

Because everyone needs a pastor. And if you call in to Pastor Bill Shishko's live call-in program, please tell him that you heard about his program from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And by the way, Dr. Truman, I know that you are aware that Bill Shishko thanks very highly of you, and he has given me a couple of topics that he wants me to interview you on in the future, so I will have to get back to you on that.

I'll have to have a word with him about that. Bill's great. Yeah, he's been a dear friend of mine since the mid -1980s. He's a great man. Yes, he is. And by the way, I have to ask your opinion about the voice of Charles Spurgeon during the commercial for Solid Ground Christian Books.

I had a friend of mine in the studio who I was interviewing. He's originally from South Carolina. He heard that ad, and he started laughing, and he said, that is the phoniest English accent I have ever heard.

And I said to him, actually, the gentleman who did the recording for me is from England. So I was just wondering what your thoughts were on the English accent, even though it's authentic.

Why would he come to that conclusion? I have no idea. I heard it as an English accent, so I have no idea. It didn't jar with me at all. Let's see here. We have another listener.

Let's see here. We have Cameron in Abbotsford, British Columbia. And Cameron asks, let's see here. Got to enlarge Cameron's email too. In fact, while I'm doing that, anybody else want to join us on the air?

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. And Cameron asks, what do you think are the most notable contributing factors to the decline of the classical and confessional doctrine of God among Reformed churches of our time?

And are there any prominent theologians from.

The 19th and 20th centuries that have facilitated this decline? Well, it's a question of God's. Now, when it comes to 19th and 20th century theologians, unfortunately, the doctrine of God is somewhat lacking.

For example, Jay Doctrinal is practically strong on the doctrine of Greco-Mend. Some 19th, 20th century theologians have written on the doctrine of God. Ironically, I'd probably point you towards a number of Roman Catholic.

That's an interesting statement. Could you explain that a little more deeply?

Yeah, well, I think that the Roman Catholic people bet it's Michael Allen.

And by the way, if anybody listening cares to listen later on to my interview with James Dolezal, I interviewed him on August 28th, 2017. So all you need to do is go to ironsharpensironradio .com and you go into the past programs podcast archive and type in his name D as in David, O-L-E-Z as in zebra, A-L.

And that will obviously be the only thing that comes up because there's never interviewed anybody else by that name. So in fact, I've never met or heard of anybody else by that name. So I hope that you enjoy that interview later.

We have John in West Peoria, Illinois. How would you counsel a church member who asks questions about the church of his or her elders? And the answer frequently seems to be to hand that church member a large.

Book he or she might not feel they have time to read. Wow. I'll give a general answer. At a minimum, recommend which chapter I should read. Is it possible for us to sit and talk about the issue over a cup of coffee?

Yeah, a little bit of pushback. Well actually, if you could tell me about the church that is giving away free copies of The Church of Christ by Bannerman, I'm gonna run over there and switch.

Membership just to get a look. Yeah, you might want to say thank you first. I would probably recommend a book by either of them and then say, you know, read it. And of course, all of the major.

Confessions are very brief in length. There's not a major confession that's near the size of.

Bannerman's work on The Church of Christ. No, no, I mean, that's the case. And of course, if the elder is... Well, here's a part of a very important aspect of the church that is the least.

Popular amongst anything I can even think of that the church is responsible for, and that's discipline. And in fact, there are many churches that are confessionally conservative, reformed, and biblically orthodox that do not really practice church discipline at all.

And in fact, there are many theologically sound churches. It really saddens me that they will accept without question into their membership people who leave other churches who escape discipline or excommunication.

And it's just a sad situation. What can you say about discipline, and what did.

Bannerman have to say about it? Well, discipline is important. It is a mark of the church. Now, it's not to say that if discipline is on one level, neither here nor there. The church has an obligation to protect a subject to the view of another.

And then there is the vindication of the name of Christ in the public realm. And this, I think, is extremely important. A man betrayed his wife in adultery... The name of Christ... greater than the... like, you know, you criticize the pastor, you get excommunicated kind of discipline.

But you commit a very egregious sin, like adultery, you should be hearing from your elders. You should be being disciplined over that, because that is the only way that the church can demonstrate... Amen.

In fact, I owe my life.

To church discipline. Wow. I was disciplined a number of years ago after 18 years of sobriety, like a dog returning to its own vomit. I tragically returned to the abuse, this very serious abuse of alcohol.

And if it wasn't for the discipline of the congregation where I was a member, I might not be sitting here conducting this talk show right now. I might not be alive.

Great story, Chris. Yeah. In fact... That goes to say that there aren't weak people. Amen. It's not loving to let them on it. That's right. They're on the highway to hell at that point.

Right. It's like letting your little tiny child play in the street. Yeah. Yeah. That's not loving. Right. And by the way, if anybody wants to hear my interview with my former pastor on Long Island, New York, we discussed the issue of discipline, and he was the very man who was among the other elders disciplining me before, of course, the interview.

And I think it might be a helpful interview if you Google, or not Google, but if you type in his name in our search engine at irontreppansironradio .com, G-R-I-M as in Michael, A-L-D as in David, I. Grimaldi.

His name is Pastor Mark Grimaldi. He conducted an interview with me a number of years ago on the fact that not only did he discipline me along with the other elders in the church, but on the subject in general of church discipline.

And I hope you are blessed by that. Well, I would like you now to, well, let me take one more question. We have an anonymous listener who says, what sins, in your opinion, need to be brought public to the rest of the church?

I'm assuming those sins might be more quickly brought to the attention of the congregation if it was someone in authority, but if you could tell us, what sins should certainly remain private until the person repents, or what sins should be made public no matter whether or not the person.

Repents? Yeah, that's a very hard question, because, you know, to take an adult, in that situation, again, they're often innocent. I could categorize what sins need to be declared public, so I think an egregious and criminal offense is one to address that.

Now, one final comment or.

Question, I should say, and comment from you. The government of the Christian church, I have had, I'm a Reformed Baptist, as you know, and I've had conversations with my Presbyterian brethren, and I'm assuming that the Free Church of Scotland had a very similar polity to most Presbyterian churches, and the Presbyterian friends have on occasion said, well, our structure of government is a better preventative of a church collapsing into heresy, and I have responded, well, I don't see that historically, because if a Reformed Baptist church is confessional, they're not going to collapse until they give up that confession, and of course we have the PCUSA that collapsed and became one of the most liberal denominations that is on the face of the earth.

So if you could respond to what I just said.

Well, I would say all polities work well in theory. I think, yes, historic congregations, it doesn't make that when the presbytery is ultimately...

Now, are the presbyteries viewed as a replacement for the apostolic office, because obviously we don't have a clear example, to my knowledge, in the Bible for a presbytery. We did have, and I should say the church, had apostles that are no longer existing.

So why the presbytery?

We would see, we get an awful lot out of the jury.

Okay.

Bannerman makes the end, but it's the connectionalism.

Well, I want to thank you so much, Dr. Truman, for being my guest again. I look forward to your return soon and frequently, as many times as the Lord will provide the opportunity. And I want our listeners to know that if you want more information on the Church of Christ book by Bannerman, James Bannerman, you can go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org.

I know that the seminary website where you are on the faculty is wts .edu, wts .edu. Do you have any other contact information that you care to provide? You also have a podcast and so on, if you could let our listeners know about that.

Yep, a podcast and kind of religious freedom.

And of course, the Cornerstone Orthodox Presbyterian Church, if any of our listeners are either visiting or they actually already live in Pennsylvania, in the Ambler, Pennsylvania area, that website is cornerstoneopc .com, cornerstoneopc, standing for Orthodox Presbyterian Church, dot com.

Thank you so much, Dr. Truman, we look forward to your return.

Thanks for having me on, Chris.

All right, God bless you, brother.

Bye.

Bye-bye. Now, don't go away, folks, because we do have Earl Blackburn, who is joining us on a similar theme today. Earl is going to be discussing Jesus Loves the Church and So Should You. So please don't go away.

We'll be right back after this 12-minute break because of the requirements of Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who requires a 12-minute break between our hours. We'll be right back, God willing, with Earl Blackburn after these messages from our sponsors.

Christ Identifies Himself with His Church

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750. Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled Resting in Grace.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on WLIE radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you just tuned us in, the first hour we featured Dr. Carl Truman as our guest. We were discussing the book The Church of Christ by James Bannerman, the 19th century minister in the Free Church of Scotland.

The second hour we are going to be joined by Earl Blackburn, chairman of the administrative council of the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America for eight years and currently the pastor of Heritage Baptist Church of Shreveport, Louisiana.

We're going to be discussing his book, Jesus Loves the Church and So Should You. Before we are joined by Pastor Blackburn, I just have a couple of brief announcements. The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is once again conducting the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology at two locations.

The first, from April 13th to the 15th, will be held at the First Christian Reformed Church of Byron Center, Michigan. The second will be held at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church of Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, obviously a lot closer to Philadelphia.

And the theme is the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit. The speakers include Daniel Aiken, Richard Gaffin, Daniel Hyde. One of the most powerful preachers alive on the planet Earth, in my opinion, Conrad M. Bayway of Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

And Richard Phillips and Jonathan Master and David Murray and Scott Oliphant. If you'd like to register, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, and click on the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology, the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit.

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