Bow Tie Dialogue: THE ANGLICAN SEQUEL! (Guest Stephen Boyce)

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Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me

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It's okay And I need a friendly voice with some

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Good theology Calvinist degree speaking So I mix a manly drink

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Oh, oh It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Polosky Beers and boat rides

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Calvinist podcast with Keith Polosky He's not like most

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Calvinists He's nice Your Calvinist podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

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And welcome back to your Calvinist podcast My name is Keith Polosky And as always, I am your

01:12

Calvinist And you see what I'm wearing today So you know what that means That's right, we are back for another

01:18

Bowtie Dialogue Actually, today is the first time we're having a

01:23

Bowtie Dialogue sequel This is Anglican II, The Wrath of King Henry VIII I have with me

01:30

Stephen Boyce, a minister in the ACNA And we're going to be bringing him in in just one moment

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But before we do that, I just want to take care of a couple of housekeeping issues Before we get started I want to remind you that this podcast is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church So if you're in the

01:44

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Lots of different options for that And if you use the coupon code KEITH, my first name You'll get a percentage off Alright, so now let me bring on my new friend

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And again, minister in the ACNA Church Stephen Boyce Stephen is the founder of the

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Facts Podcast That primarily focuses on the Church Fathers The Apocryphal Works, the

02:52

Canon of Scripture The Texts of Scripture and Scriptural Exegesis He and his wife Claire live in Greenville, South Carolina And have two children,

03:01

Jeremiah and Keziah Stephen holds a PhD in the area of Canon and Text From Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary His main study was on the

03:10

Gnostic Texts and the Canonical Gospel His dissertation covered textual analysis on Codex H Which included the early patristic writings

03:20

That contained readings from the Septuagint and the New Testament He is currently a contributing scholar for RTB And an

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Anglican apologist He has pastored in two churches And helped three church plants nationally and internationally

03:36

Stephen, that's quite a resume I want to thank you for being with me today On the Bowtie Dialogues here at the

03:43

Your Calvinist Podcast Absolutely, it's so good to be with you I've always enjoyed listening to your content

03:49

Followed you for the last couple of years now It's exciting for the opportunity to get to answer some questions And have some fun discussions about King Henry VIII It looks like our hero

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We're going to have a conversation about him That's always fun Well, you know, as I was telling you before we got started

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And I know the audience may or may not know this Because some people just may recently be following me

04:10

But I've been doing Bowtie Dialogues now for about a year And I've had the opportunity to interview people

04:15

From different denominational backgrounds I started with the PCA and I've done Lutherans And I've done a few others

04:22

But I've already done an Anglican episode I had several Anglican brothers come on Including Drew, who is a friend of mine

04:28

He set it up with me But I'm thankful for tonight Because this is going to be an opportunity

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To go a little bit deeper And it's a one -on -one conversation I find sometimes that a big group

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Can be sort of a cacophony And it's hard to keep up with what's going on So I'm looking forward to being able to dig

04:46

A little bit deeper with you About the history of you And you run the gamut

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You go from Baptist To Anglican It's not like you were already a

04:58

Lutheran Or someone that was more high church You were an independent Baptist Am I right?

05:04

Independent and Southern Can you give us a little bit Of a history snapshot

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Of how you went from Being an independent fundamentalist Baptist To being a minister and Apologist in the

05:17

Anglican church Yeah, so it was quite Quickly in the Independent to Southern So as I graduated undergrad

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I went to a small Bible college Independent fundamental and King James only And I Always liked the idea of King James only -ism until I learned

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Greek And then once I started Learning Greek I realized This position doesn't

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Substantiate itself by evidence And so I started switching To the new King James And that made everybody mad

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I stopped wearing a suit and tie when I preached That made everybody mad We plugged in the guitar on Sunday That made a lot of people mad

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You're on your way out the door then So about two years into pastoring I started pastoring at 21 years old

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And way too young And it really burned me out But about year two into that church

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I started realizing I'm not an Independent Baptist Because I disagree with so many of these

06:15

Things that are going on Well a lot of the Southern Baptists Because here in the South it's Baptist territory And I had a lot of Southern Baptist friends

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I had a mentor Southern Baptist And he was like I'm here to save you Rescue you from Independent Baptists Because he was one too

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And so he introduced me to some people He's like well we'll put your name out there We'll put your resume out there

06:35

We'll see what happens He was like you might be an associate with me for a while Well within two weeks

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Of putting my resume out I had a couple churches interested Next thing you know I'm being hired at a Southern Baptist church

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Which I really enjoyed I actually enjoyed the conversations And things like that But while that was happening

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I did a masters in the background I did initial work in a doctorate in theology And then

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I ended up really struggling And just being burned out in ministry By the age of 27

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So I was doing church from 21 to 27 As a senior pastor and Independent In a Southern Baptist church

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So after my family was completely burned out with that I ended up Being encouraged to do a

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Ph .D I didn't want to do a Ph .D I didn't feel like I had time to do a Ph .D And then

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It just so happened that Somebody had read an article that I wrote On the story of the woman caught in adultery A textual analysis on it

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And a professor Down in Louisiana Had kind of recruited me to a new program he was doing

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That was going to involve Canon and text And he specifically wanted to focus on a lot of the

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Gnostic texts And Nag Hammadi that were discovered in Egypt That a lot of people were not studying

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Like the Gospel of Mary The Gospel of Judas The Gospel of Truth The Gospel of Peter was found later in a different cave

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But when you look at these texts I was comparing with the Gospels But as a result

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He wanted me to do my dissertation Particularly on a manuscript And it's a long, long name It's called Codex H That is in Jerusalem And that manuscript actually has

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The writing of the Didache The teaching of the Apostles The only full manuscript we have Written by a scribe named

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Leo He dates it and names himself at the very end And it was in the 11th century I hated his scribal work

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Everything was shorthand But in it was First and second

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Clement The longer recensions Of the letters of Ignatius The Didache And other early church works

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So as a Baptist Still searching for things And looking into the early church

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From the time of the end of the first century Into the end of the second century With the documents I had in front of me I began to investigate the early church

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The high view of sacraments The high view of the episcopate The high view of unity within the church

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Credo language And so as a result of that study I really struggled But while we were doing that I was helping church plants

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I was helping a church plant in Malaysia In Seattle and in Asheville Over those spans

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And they were all connected And so once I finished my dissertation We had done a lot of apologetics

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So I started debating guys Like Richard Carrier Who started the Misesist movement Robert Price Dialoguing with Bart Ehrman Started realizing, oh wow

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These guys have really legitimate concerns With Christianity We need to come up with good answers And so once I got into that forum

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I met an Anglican apologist Named Jonathan Sheffield Who's down in Texas And he continued to take the work

09:42

That I was writing and researching And he was saying, how can you not See this and see this

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And he started pointing things out And it was already a doubt in my mind Through study And just kind of over time

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Really studying these texts And studying specific topics I started to realize that What I was as a

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Baptist Was not what the early church was practicing And so I had a choice to make It wasn't easy

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Because I have family And loved ones I was ordained in the

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Baptist church twice Independent and Southern It was saying goodbye to Opportunities, jobs

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And going into a world I didn't know And the one person I had contact with In the

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Anglican church Is in Texas And so my wife and I just took a leap of faith We visited an

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Anglican church here Didn't know a single person Just went and visited And took

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Eucharist In the manner in which it is presented For the very first time And our lives were changed

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And so it was deep And it was a long journey And there's so much more behind that But that's kind of the short end story

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We went through Baptist And probably the worst thing that could have ever happened For a Baptist seminary is to allow their students

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To read some of the early patristics Because it really shook my world Because it's like, wait, we don't practice that We don't have that And as a result, that's kind of what happened

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So it was really stunning PhD work at a Baptist seminary That opened the door for me to look And honestly,

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I couldn't be Roman Catholic There was too many things that I saw That were dogma

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Later And they didn't pertain to the early church Things like some of the Mariology they have

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The Ascension and Assumption of Mary Purgatory, indulgences A lot of things I was like, man, there's none of this

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In the early writings Eastern Orthodoxy Was kind of too cliquish A lot of weird practices

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And they were huge on icons Almost to a fault So as much as I love a lot of my friends

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In these movements I couldn't be a part of that And so Anglicanism was really

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The best suited Place with what we had studied And come to understand

11:55

All right As you were talking, I didn't want to interrupt you But I have a couple of quick things

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I want to ask you about that And then we're going to move on to some other questions One, you mentioned the

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Pericope Adultery Where do you fall on that? You said you did a study An article on it

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Do you hold to that as being Genuine to the Gospel of John Or do you hold to that as Some scholars see it as being

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A later Edition, or what are your thoughts? Yeah, so I don't think it was originally

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In John, I think it actually For multiple reasons, the manuscript evidence Is one of them

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To the syntactical language in it I investigated from Another student at Dallas Theological Seminary Who was under Dr.

12:41

Wallace Put out a research On the Lucan syntax That's in the story of the

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Pericope And we do have manuscripts With it actually at the end And in sections of Luke Near the

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Triumphal Entry And so he put together Lucan Identifiable words that were

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In the Pericope So I went behind him, his name was Kyle Hughes I believe, and I went behind and actually found

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Three additional ones that he had missed In his research, I think I came up with Twelve to his nine I could be wrong on my math

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It was three more, whichever number it was And Put it out there, and I always joke that Who is at a higher

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Risk of being stoned? A woman caught in adultery, or A scholar who denies its authenticity

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In the Gospel of John And I feel like I'm at a greater Risk of being stoned for coming out

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I had no idea that coming out and saying that Would cause so much havoc I think Dr. White and I I know we did

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First John 5 -7, I know we did Acts 8 Together, I'm almost positive Dr. White and I did a program together

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On John 7 -53 -8 -11 But I don't believe it is authentic I think it actually came from other traditions

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The Gospel of the Hebrews Being one of them I think it's a true story, I think it really happened

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I think forms of it were actually A part of Jesus' ministry It would not surprise me the least

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If this really took place I don't know if it happened in the embellishment That we see it in our text

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But nonetheless, I think that There's a mistake in removing A lot of this stuff from our translations

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Because it is historic And there are Ancient traditions of reading

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But I don't believe it belongs there There's also another reason really quick It messes up the feast day

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In John 7 It says that it's on the last day of the feast Which was the feast

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Demonstrating the last night Where they were going to hold up the torches Where they had already poured the water and said

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Hosanna, they did the whole feast And if you go to the story Jesus is showing

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That he is the water in chapter 7 And that he is the light Chapter 8 verse 12

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If you stick the story in between them Actually what happens is Jesus goes away for a night And then comes back the next day

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And actually if you go to chapter 7 It says that these things were happening on the last day of the feast And if it's on the last day of the feast

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In chapter 7 And Jesus is pointing the feast As being fulfilled in him He's showing that the water and the fire

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Were pictured to him I'm the light, I'm the water It would actually delay the fulfillment of the day

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Because if the story is there Another day is pushed off He comes back in chapter 8 The day after the feast Rather than the last day of the feast

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And he's fulfilling the lantern fire aspect A day late And that would be kind of odd Seeing how at night

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That's what they did Jesus held up the lanterns Remembering the Exodus story And so to me there's also an issue

15:39

Just within the narrative Of timing when Jesus tried to do the fulfillment In addition to the textual analysis

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See that's what I love about guys like you I can ask you a question like that And you know Not only everything

15:52

I want to know You know so much more Sorry if that's too long tell me to shorten my answer No I didn't mean it that way

15:57

Certainly not I just The thing about the feast day and all that That's just added

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To all the things that I've heard And looked at as far as the text So that's extremely helpful

16:10

The other thing I was just going to mention in your talk You mentioned Robert Price I know a lot of people know who Bart Ehrman is But some of the listeners may not know who that is

16:17

I actually met Robert Price at James White's debate When it was here in Florida And he was a nice guy

16:24

Super nice Yeah but obviously Someone that I would disagree with on Many many many things

16:31

He's a member of the Jesus Seminar And a higher critic of scripture But jovial guy

16:36

Nice you know he and his wife And my wife and I sat and talked For a little while after the debate

16:42

And he was very kind to us So I thought he was He's like Santa Claus I was just fixing to say

16:49

I drew a picture of him I'm a doodler when I listen Especially to debates I like to My hands fidget so I draw

16:56

And so I drew a picture of him And that's what got our conversation going So I handed him the picture and he liked it

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And so we had a conversation And I do remember the question That I asked because His approach in that debate

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It was about the historicity of the text And his approach in that debate was That there was enough questions

17:16

That he couldn't say this is Authentic but he also wasn't Saying it wasn't he was more of a

17:22

Kind of a little more malleable But the atheists who were there Supporting him really

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Were just hard core and so I asked the question I said are you Any more convinced that they're right

17:34

Than we're right and he goes not really I was like okay

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I'm just curious Because they all think you're on their side And I think you're kind of like You know it was just an interesting

17:46

Part of that He's a good guy we mostly talked about The Gnostic Gospels I think we talked about the Gospel of Peter because I had

17:53

Produced my own translation of the fragment That we have we talked about That and the Gospel of Thomas and I think the

17:59

Gospel of Mary I had fun I nerded out with the guy We clearly disagreed

18:05

On the value He believes are just as valuable As the four canonical Gospels and we

18:11

Got into that a little bit but He was nothing but kind to me and very nice And he even followed up and stayed in touch

18:17

And we have a good relationship Well good I again another

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Question comes into my mind and some this is Conversational that's why it's called conversation with Calvinist so we're going to get to the

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Anglican Stuff in a minute I promise we're going to Pound on King Henry's casket here In just a moment. Oh boy

18:36

But the question Of the Gnostic Gospels And the non canonical

18:43

Non canonical Gospels One of the Things that is often argued

18:49

Is that the canonical Gospels are all First century in their In their writing in the

18:55

Non canonical or Gnostic Gospels Whatever we want to call them are later You know second third century is that an

19:01

Accurate statement because I've talked about that Before my teaching some Some would say Thomas is possibly first century

19:07

What are your thoughts on that? Sure yeah so Thomas would probably be the earliest I think it's around 110 to 115

19:15

I believe all of the canonical Gospels are in the first century. I think that A This is complex

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I think a Hebrew Aramaic Matthew was circulating before Greek Mark once a

19:28

Greek Mark was Circulated a gospel Of Luke was produced for Paul and then The council in Jerusalem and Antioch Produced a

19:36

Greek Matthew Sent from the whole entire Church and then That was all done before 70

19:42

AD And then John was written in the 90s The Gnostic Gospels started presenting

19:48

Themselves probably through the gospel of Thomas Which I've come to conclude is not A singular written

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Text we have to remember the gospel of Thomas Is a sayings gospel the Lagia it is 114

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Teachings or sayings of Jesus or his Disciples and you can actually See they progress the theology

20:08

Actually progressed by the time you Hit around saying 70 And so when you go through the gospel

20:14

Of Thomas by the time you get to Saying 114 you have this Weird statement about Every woman must become male

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In order to enter the kingdom and it's like What in the world does that mean but there's a Lot of late second century

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Feminist Kind of ideas that Actually came into Gnostic they started Worshipping the female sex they really

20:36

Did it was this is Where you start seeing priestesses come into play This is where you see

20:41

Christian Christianity and paganism practices coming in And so you can actually See the progressiveness that almost leads

20:48

To open the door to the gospel of Mary Magdalene as some would say Just the gospel of Mary I think it's referring to Magdalene This is where theories come in That Jesus had a love affair with Mary Magdalene Like the gospel of Philip Because it says he kissed her

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And thank you Dan Brown for butchering Gnostic theology and teaching everybody That Jesus had a love affair when he actually

21:10

Should know better know what that means In the Da Vinci code And so you start seeing the

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Da Vinci code Actually made these popular But they're all The earliest is the gospel of Thomas and I think

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It started the early second century But I don't think it was completed I think multiple Scribes worked on it and it wasn't

21:27

Completed until sometime in the late second And other gospels It was kind of like a cue

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And I don't even really believe in cue But kind of a cue idea for the Gnostic Text it springboarded other ideas

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And other texts to come Some of them are less heretical say Like the gospel of Peter although we don't have the whole

21:45

Thing but we have church Fathers saying Overall there's a lot of accuracy but there's

21:51

Some concern of docetism And we see that for example In the gospel of Peter when Jesus is on the cross

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We have the saying my God My God why have you forsaken me quote Psalm 22 But in the gospel

22:03

Of Peter he says power my power Why have you forsaken Almost if the human

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Had a power leave him that came upon Him at his baptism which is docetism Teaching so you kind of see some of the

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Docetism in there So you can see That second century docetism

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In that one so it can't be first century And then you have church fathers that help Identify these texts as they start

22:27

Coming they're listing them hey there's A document going around with the apostle Thomas's Name on it hey there's a document circulating

22:33

With Mary's name on it And you don't start seeing that to really mid Second century and so We have no way to trace it any earlier

22:41

I know there's some critical scholars that want The gospel of Peter to be in the first Century and some want the gospel

22:47

Of Thomas in the late first century I don't think it's provable I think theology Doesn't line up the evolution

22:53

Of docetism does not align With theology in those texts I think we Can't get any earlier than a hundred good

23:00

Deal good deal well okay so I'm Not a hundred percent wrong then because I've said That before no no I think you're spot on I think it's fair I'm always nervous when

23:09

I When I'm thinking about Things that I've taught and then I'm talking to an expert I'm like did I Get this right

23:15

Because I thought I had But again you're the expert in this

23:20

Area and it's the The study of these things that Led you to be an

23:25

Anglican which for me Is Somewhat confusing To say the least and I And I mean that in the

23:34

Nicest possible way Because I Have seen

23:39

I've actually done Shows about this How there seems to be a trend In Especially among young Christian men

23:50

There seems to be a trend of Moving toward the more traditional Representations Of Christianity such as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy There's the whole

24:02

Orthobros movement I don't know if you're familiar With that term Okay and Guys like The Roman Catholic Apologist on his name

24:14

Escapes me now but he's No I'm thinking of the one that Debated James White a few years ago

24:20

He's very articulate Very smart Man and I can't think of his name

24:25

Trent Is you know one of those guys Who just articulates his position

24:32

Well and is very winsome And very kind and so There's a lot of movement

24:38

Out of the Sort of mainline Evangelical movement back into These more traditional

24:45

Long held Christian Movement I want to say

24:53

Christian representations Whether it be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox But when

24:58

I think of The Anglican Church And again please forgive me I mean this again in the nicest possible way

25:05

I don't think of it being ancient I don't think of it being represented by The early church

25:10

I think of it being A byproduct of Something similar to the Reformation Because with the

25:16

Reformation we look back To men like Luther and Calvin Who had obviously Split away from the

25:21

Roman Catholic Church And the Anglican Church Did split from the

25:27

Catholic Church at least as far as I understand So this is where I want you to correct me Historically what makes you

25:32

Feel like you're more tied to the Historical Church as an Anglican than you would be As maybe another

25:38

Protestant Sure yeah great question So there's a lot of Misinformation About where Anglicanism begins

25:45

Everybody wants to start it with King Henry VIII Particularly Catholics But I think an honest

25:51

Catholic And you know Trent Horn for example So I got to meet him recently

25:56

Because I did a two on two debate With him on justification Him and Akin debated myself and Lutheran So we had a fun debate

26:04

And he's actually coming on my program In September to talk about Anglicanism And Catholicism You take the position of Sola Fide I'm assuming

26:13

Yeah I would Articulate it Slightly different Than some

26:22

Of the more Presbyterian or views Of that nature I think sacraments

26:28

Are important I actually Put a triangle up In the debate on my slide

26:34

Showing that there's justification Before God which is Sola Fide There's justification

26:40

Before others And there's justification before ourselves And I think that's where Sacraments come into play and so forth

26:48

And Horn was slightly impressed With The dynamic I took on the bottom end

26:54

Of the triangle but ultimately They tried to say they agreed with us on Sola Fide based on Even Trent, the

27:01

Council of Trent Which Yes They do but then they Struggle with that second leg

27:08

That I had on my graph because They make it equal To Fide as is

27:14

We believe that Sola Fide Will lead to Not only justification before God It will lead to justification before your own self

27:23

And before others and that's what we see In James but We had a good debate and Again he emailed me

27:30

We dialogued and he's coming On my show and then he said When his studio's done he wants me to come out and do

27:36

A show with him on why I came to Anglicanism But the Question I think

27:43

Please send me A link when we get finished To that debate if it's available Is it available?

27:48

It is available yeah It's It's actually on Trent Horn's channel

27:54

He actually edited it And He The funny thing is

27:59

Jimmy Akin love him to death but Boy every debate On one subject ends up on Purgatory or Something and it's like wait

28:09

I'm sitting there Messaging the moderator Like step in and do something

28:14

Like why are we on purgatory right now This debate is on is faith alone What saves a man

28:20

Like next thing you know we're on purgatory And it was so frustrating because Akin wanted to Hog the mic and I told the

28:27

Moderator midway through I was like okay from now On I'm going to interrupt the man Like this is not going to happen

28:33

And two on twos are very difficult because We split it into it was Samuel versus Akin me

28:39

Versus Trent all in one debate But we could talk to the other person's Side and so it

28:45

Kind of got awkward at the beginning it's like Wait do I speak here or do I just let Samuel Answer that so I didn't really speak up Until the midway and then when

28:53

Horn and I were able to engage we kind of caught on To the format I didn't like the format I was against it from day one but they

28:59

Were that's what Trent and Jimmy wanted so we We did what the

29:04

Catholics want Because they're the older church but The thing is

29:09

To your question They'll hold you to that That means we're best

29:16

Bless us But the question about Anglicanism and kind of the myth

29:22

Is that it began with King Henry VIII when it Had not The Sea of Canterbury goes back much further than that The Sea of Canterbury goes

29:30

Back to 597 to 601 With a man by the name of Augustine not Augustine of Hippo Augustine of Canterbury different He was an

29:38

Italian Sent by Pope Gregory the Great To the

29:43

British Isles Particularly to the Anglo -Saxons To evangelize Now what's interesting

29:48

I actually have the book here with me The Ecclesiastical History of the

29:53

English People I don't know if your Camera can see that By the most venerable

30:00

Bede He wrote Particularly about the time of The churches that were in the island of The British Isles although Bede was in the 7th and 8th century

30:11

So I think he was born in the Late 670s And died in the 700s he's a historian

30:18

Writing about the churches and he tells Stories of the churches that were There in England all the way to the

30:24

Time of his life and What you actually find is that there were Always churches on the

30:29

British Isles There were always churches there you had John's Churches particularly in the Celtic churches

30:35

There's still Places you can go Visit today in England and see

30:40

Where Celtic Christianity Was practiced in the 2nd and 3rd century You can also

30:46

So this is the unique thing about Anglicanism because What Bede demonstrates

30:52

In his history when Pope Gregory the Great believed

30:58

That there needed To be unity on the British Isles he knew that the southern

31:04

Because Rome pulled out of the southern Part of England and Actually sent

31:09

Their troops out Because the Anglo -Saxons took over The Anglo -Saxons were

31:15

Split into the bottom portion Of the British Isles and There's a story

31:21

In Bede's history where When he was Still a monk there was a slave

31:27

Brought and he had blue eyes And blonde hair And to The future

31:33

Pope he was Just blown away by the beauty Of the skin and the hair color And like this is a beautiful person

31:40

Like where did he come from And he said oh they're amongst the Angles And he said are there any more

31:48

Like these yeah there's a whole island Full of them you know and So he said There's a joke he said

31:55

Angles more like angels You know kind of situation And so he once he became

32:02

Pope his best buddy Augustine He was like I want

32:07

He always had wanted to send Missionaries to the southern British Isles So he sends Augustine with 50

32:13

Other missionary monks They go to the British Isles They get there and they find out

32:19

Christianity is already even amongst the Anglo -Saxons the Anglo -Saxon king's wife Was a Christian and he actually

32:25

Permitted churches and then Augustine actually writes back To the Pope and says

32:31

It's not as bad as you thought These people are actually civilized actually have Churches and so he starts

32:37

Investigating England and it turns Out there's been churches practicing All through the time

32:43

And then they found John's Liturgy there because it became A huge debate in the

32:48

British Isles When do we celebrate Easter even today The East and the West can't agree on when Easter is It was a huge ordeal

32:55

In England they The Pope and Augustine wanted to get All these churches on the same page

33:01

Because in parts of England You have stories that Joseph of Arimathea had been there

33:06

In fact they claim they know where the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea is Aristarchus who was with Paul In the end of the book of Romans They claim they have his tomb also there

33:17

In England northern I think it's northern England So they have Paul Sent missionaries to that region

33:23

And then John Sent missionaries that went West and then

33:29

Into the eastern part of The British Isles and then in Ireland In the Celtic churches and again

33:35

There's evidence of Celtic churches In the second century out there So you kind of have

33:41

Pauline liturgy You have Johanan Liturgy you have

33:47

Petrine Liturgy and What we find is that even in 601 when

33:52

Augustine became the first Ever Archbishop of Canterbury He wasn't creating a church

33:57

He was there unifying A church and you see that in the language From the Pope He wasn't looking to Bring in new

34:06

Christians That never existed on the island He was bringing in Leaders from Rome to unite

34:13

The dispersed churches With different liturgies And it took time Augustine didn't get to see it in his

34:19

Lifetime his successors were able to Accomplish that unity What was broken in the Reformation Was that the church of England from the first time

34:29

Since Augustine of Canterbury In 601 actually Broke communion with Rome That was reunited in 601

34:37

And it's not the first time They had issues and this is one of the Things that I came to realize There were pre -reformations

34:45

Far before the reformation in England King Alfred for example

34:50

Hated that Rome wanted to insert Latin liturgy On nations that didn't know

34:56

Latin And he was the first one to Defy the Pope and start Doing liturgy in the churches in English He was like We speak

35:04

English we don't speak Latin So he pushed back and he had his own Little mini reformation

35:10

Moments against the Papacy and against Rome and said We're a free church we don't need your permission

35:16

We're in communion with you But you don't tell us what to do And we don't want Latin So he actually took all the colleges

35:24

And everything and took the Latin out And started putting English in So there's a deep history that goes way back

35:30

What year was that? When was King Alfred? Oh boy 13th

35:36

I'll have to look that up It's 12th, 13th century I believe That's okay It would have been after The Great Schism with The East and all those things

35:47

So it's still Second millennium church Excuse me, I am wrong it was before that He was in the 9th century

35:54

Oh okay, alright So really early So So Rome As you said discovers

36:04

That there are churches in England And who Establishes the

36:10

Archbishop You said between The I think you said 597 to 601 601

36:16

It was Pope Gregory So Pope Gregory establishes

36:21

The Archbishop As a bishop Then representing

36:27

Rome Would that be correct to say? Representing the communion With Peter's churches

36:34

And John's And Paul's churches that were there To be a unified communion So they became a part of a communion

36:41

With Rome With their own personalized Representative And so the

36:47

Archbishop is a representative Of that communion And so He went over to Gaul He was sent over to France He was, by the way, the churches in England Did not accept him

36:59

At first Because the Pope's coming over and saying Yep, everybody needs, here's your

37:05

Archbishop They're like, no, he's not A lot of the Johannine churches No, he didn't

37:13

Well, the biggest thing is The biggest mistake that Rome made Is they made the date of Easter I mean, it was

37:20

King James Only -ism kind of stuff I mean, we've got to have everybody Celebrating Easter on the same day

37:26

And some of the bishops That were in the British Isles Were just like, why? No, we believe the tradition

37:34

Was the tradition given back to John And it became a Who's the better apostle? Who got the information?

37:40

Is it John or is it Peter? And the debate still goes on today So it was a massive thing

37:46

It took years to actually bring Unity Into this subject

37:53

On Easter But the Archbishop of Canterbury Became the representative

37:59

Of the communion between the churches Of England and Rome And it is an individual

38:05

Provenance So it is its own provenance It is not Rome ruling

38:11

In England It is the co Remember We've got to remember this

38:18

And even John Calvin said this about Pope Gregory The Great He was the last great pope

38:23

Because they didn't see the papacy back then The way the papacy is today

38:29

The papacy was not Rome's standard And I know that every

38:34

Catholic that's listening to this Is probably going to throw something at their screen But even other popes had admitted

38:39

Something changed in the papacy After the schism And at this time

38:45

Pope Gregory was not a dominating U -list into Rome Situation Now he inserted himself

38:52

His goal was to be a To unite the apostles' churches

38:57

That was his goal To unite the apostles' churches He was a gentleman You can read and be the correspondence

39:05

Back and forth between Augustine And Gregory And Gregory's wisdom

39:10

On how to deal with disagreement Should be used in every training manual For church practice and pastoring

39:16

It's phenomenal Even Calvin praised the man So we have to remember

39:22

That they didn't see themselves at that time In Rome as we dominate We are in control of all the churches

39:29

We are in communion With all the churches And they saw the sea of Peter As a sea of honor

39:36

The sea of Rome was an honored sea That this is Peter And his Apostleship down through his

39:44

Successors and they gave Precedence to a first amongst equals So an archbishop in another land

39:50

Is not Lesser than the pope He is a representative of that Ecumenical Communion of the

40:00

Saints and he is the delegate there Leading the church in England to keep communion with all

40:06

The other churches So Eastern Orthodoxy Would see the

40:12

Apostolic succession Going down through their Bishops and Rome Would see apostolic succession going

40:19

Specifically through the papacy They would say the pope sits on Peter's seat

40:25

Where is apostolic succession With the Anglican Church? Where do you

40:32

How do you trace that Back? And I want to just Mention this

40:38

Because it's on my mind I know that you come from the Independent Baptist Church and there's a belief

40:44

You're laughing because you know where I'm going There's a belief among some Independent Baptists that The Baptist Church Is the true church and that there is a

40:53

Trail of blood which exists Outside of the mainline apostolic church Or whatever you want to call it

40:58

That that is the true church Is are Anglicans claiming a similar

41:05

Line and I'm not comparing it Necessarily to the trail of blood I'm just saying Giving somewhat of a tangential

41:11

Connection here. Are you saying We go back to the apostles and this Is how? Yeah so By the way

41:18

I did a three part series on the trail Of blood on my podcast if anybody wants to Check those out. I talk about the myth

41:23

Of the trail of blood. I think I'm one of the few People that actually goes through And deconstructs every

41:29

Single group on that list. So Send me that link too. I'm going to put all the links Of these things you're mentioning in the description

41:35

Because I think people should listen to these things Especially you know the you and Trent Horn The debate because I think

41:41

Sola Fide is a hugely important thing and that as well I I had Thomas Ross on my program A year and a half ago and he

41:47

He believes in the trail of blood and Um, we didn't get we didn't get a chance to get Into it because we were talking about king james only ism

41:53

But it's fruit of the same tree I think they make some of the Same faulty arguments and The thing is they're trying what

42:01

Always intrigued me about the trail of blood And the connection of succession is that The baptist

42:07

Want to be significant Because they see the value of chain of Custody from apostles to their

42:13

Current practice. So Even john Smith one of the

42:19

Historians places one of the First ever baptists when he Split from the church of england

42:25

In the early 17th century He After starting a whole new movement

42:31

That became general Baptists he realized Succession was important and most

42:37

People don't realize this. It's quite fascinating John smith ended up going to the Mennonites to seek succession

42:44

Because Even after practicing kind of a rogue Group creating the general baptist

42:49

Which I always joke are the lesser Of the two I like the particular Baptist a lot better but when you look

42:55

And i'm sure you would agree with that We consider ourselves particular Baptists so the general

43:01

The general baptists were kind of Fluctuating back and forth and even john Smith realized that Succession was necessary and he sought

43:09

Communion through the mennonites And if you go back and actually find It they granted him

43:15

Access to their fellowship, but he Had already died and so he was only Given access after death not before Um He even realized succession was important So this is interesting

43:27

How everybody wants to have succession The difference that we have to consider Is what tertullian of Uh pretty much he came

43:35

Down from rome he went to the north african churches And defended christianity And he demonstrated that if you're

43:41

Going to be a church from the apostles there's going To be a record a record Is both of a the text that You use and be

43:49

Uh the bishops Succession lines from hand on head And you should be able to trace both

43:55

Name records as well as the text That continue with them which is why all The churches were using the same new testament

44:01

Text because the bishops Were all coming back from the Same originated line

44:07

Peter james etc So when you look at anglicanism Um and I have a whole list of it i can actually show

44:15

You the succession line of even the acna Archbishops Um going back to saint peter

44:21

Now the cool thing is With anglicanism Is they're not limited

44:27

To peter's succession We have a trifold succession connection Uh we are connected

44:33

Through peter and paul are typically Put together through rome Um and then you have the

44:39

Johanan uh connection As well and even at one Point the delegates from jerusalem

44:46

Sent a bishop to England and sent one of theirs To be a part of the succession line

44:51

Of the sea and so you even Have james's succession line In in anglicanism so anglicanism

44:58

Is kind of unique and this is actually What's really cool because you see Even orthodox eastern orthodox

45:03

Practices in anglican churches For example uh the philioquia Is a big debate uh between the east

45:09

And the west do we put And the sun in the Creed or not well the

45:15

East would never do it and the west would Always do it the anglicans actually Have a choice you can choose to do

45:21

It or not to do it you have the choice There's a lot of actually shout outs To the orthodox that is still

45:27

Integrated into anglicanism because The east and the west anglicanism Is made up of kind of both

45:33

Even though their friendship has long Been with the west And their communion is typically based on That connection there's a lot of Orthodox practice that's still

45:44

Happening in anglicanism so they're kind Of a a breed between east And west uh because of their location

45:50

And their history So i would say that yeah we Can actually trace our succession line

45:55

Obviously augustine of canterbury Himself was sent and and Sanctioned in gall by Pope gregory to be of the

46:03

Sea but you can even proceed Before that so if if Gregory puts a person there

46:09

You could say there were other bishops there but There's no traceable line for them even though there Was apostles churches so the traceable

46:15

Line now starts with augustine And if it starts with augustine Now you're a part of the communion

46:21

Of the succession that goes back to peter And paul so instantly we have That connection and so yeah an anglican

46:27

And i as tertullian says You need your papers i i carry A digital copy and a physical

46:33

Copy with me to demonstrate That the anglican church that I'm a part of is

46:39

Connected back to the apostolic Roots and we have every single name Of bishops between peter

46:45

And paul and john and james To the archbishop of the acna Which is bishop now bishop

46:51

Steve wood who i just had a Wonderful lunch with a month and a half ago Down in charleston right before he

46:57

Got elected nobody knew he was going to get elected Archbishop he's a wonderful man he's the He was a bishop over the diocese i'm a part

47:03

Of um i've met with him twice Had lunch with him a couple weeks Later he's getting elected off to the archbishopric

47:09

So uh Did you know that was coming? No no he was not

47:15

In my top five guesses Um a couple priests Were suspicious he'd be in the top three

47:21

But i think they were slightly surprised Um he got it I don't know if he was surprised

47:27

Um but he's such a Humble guy so laid back And if he

47:33

Knew about it he would have never said anything Or if he knew it was a possibility He had never said anything he just He just keeps going about his business

47:41

And um so we had a wonderful lunch And we had a wonderful conversation Talking about because i've obviously been

47:47

Ordained in the baptist so they're they're I'm doing ordination through anglicanism Now so i'm i'm actually an

47:53

Ordinate in the diocese So That'll help with the apologetic side too

47:59

Um so i'm in that process And he was Pretty much sanctioning and Saying hey i'm behind it i'm behind the

48:07

Ordination and also behind the podcast That i do so it was a big deal It was a big deal to me with him for him to become

48:13

The archbishop and a few weeks after that just Made it even bigger But i can take you from bishop

48:18

Steve wood back to peter and show You every bishop in between and So yeah anglicans have succession

48:25

Now the issue is But but before you go further because i have To ask that that seems

48:32

Seems hard To believe i'm certainly not calling into question Your your truthfulness it seems Hard to believe that you can know for sure

48:38

That that line is it has not been corrupted Or or misrepresented Especially when we think about like the roman

48:44

Line of popes they they Make the same claim we can go back to peter And that our our this

48:50

This demonstrates the fidelity of our Of our leaders that he has he has This unbroken line and yet There's questions about even

48:58

You know uh the avignon papacy And things like that where there were questions about who is The pope so you're saying there's no

49:04

Breaks in the line there's and again i'm not trying To debate you i'm just these are questions That i know are coming into my mind and i'm sure would be in Other people's mind you're saying it's absolutely

49:12

Unbroken it's no there's nobody whose hand went On somebody that we don't know about Yeah because uh this is

49:18

A good question it's a fantastic question by the way Um there's a couple things to Keep in mind here when

49:24

A bishop was ordained He was ordained with Outside bishops who had to come in And also witness it

49:32

Usually three so It wasn't just let's just say my Nan you know john smith over here and You know paul jones i'm making these names

49:40

Up um I'm the sea i'm Over the sea of canterbury and You know paul jones over here

49:49

I'm Blessing him and transferring The office over to this

49:54

Individual and that was done like In a dark room where nobody could see it That's not how

50:00

It would work in fact they would typically bring In outside delegates Of other bishops and sometimes

50:06

Rome would even help with this Especially in canterbury They would send a delegate from rome as a witness

50:12

And they would actually bring somebody else in From another location to witness within A college of bishops

50:18

So typically In the catholic city is the magisterium Uh anglicans have the

50:24

Council uh the College of bishops in their council So When somebody was placed

50:32

Into the archbishopric It wasn't a single Hand on head There was that individual transferring

50:40

Hand to head but there were Other witnessing bishops that were not From the area who were also

50:46

Required to be there and we even See evidence of this When augustine and others were

50:52

Ordained to the bishopric even bead Reports the difference uh Individuals that were there

50:57

So in the record keeping it's not Just simply a name after name It was a name within The witness of names because they

51:06

Kind of followed the two or three witness Um practice Or if you would the application of that And they did not usually use

51:14

Inside bishops to be those witnesses They would bring delegates in from another Um diocese

51:20

Or synod or somewhere to to aid Sometimes they would bring people in from antioch North africa to Actually do this because it was a huge Deal um so i would

51:30

Say it's unbroken now if you're talking About so there's two types there's two so the Second part of this there's two sides

51:35

To succession there's hands on Head and then there's the bible In the heart And the issue is

51:43

That you can have hand on head Succession but if the word of God is not in that person's

51:49

Heart and they're not practicing and living it Is it really true succession It may be physical succession

51:55

But it doesn't have the spiritual Deposit succession to it and There have been evil leaders

52:01

In every movement i don't Care if you're catholic orthodox The the the sea of Canterbury today is corrupt

52:09

Justin Welby Is our heretic uh The the anglican the church of england

52:15

He has opened the doors To bless Same -sex unions

52:21

Um he has made a circus Of the Canterbury uh

52:27

Cathedral and has allowed Islamic faiths to come in And partner and have

52:33

So we reject The authority of The sea of canterbury today because We believe it is heretical

52:41

Um and the good thing And then so you understand i don't know if you know this But the acna to keep its succession

52:47

Had to go to africa To continue succession because The african bishops still hold the

52:53

Succession and because the acna Split with the episcopal church over The same issue with the

52:59

Um church of england Could not receive Legitimate bishops without Going through the episcopal or england which they would

53:07

Never offer breaking from them so They had to go to the african bishops In rwanda and in kenya

53:13

To receive actual apostolic Succession for the united states And that's why there's a partnership there

53:19

With gafcon So With that and again This is kind of going in a weird direction

53:26

Because i wanted to ask you doctrinal questions And i still may we're getting Getting close to an hour mark here and i don't want to Take too much of your time but i have

53:34

A thousand questions coming into my mind For instance you know the acna Is created Not out of whole cloth but it is created as A new movement within england

53:44

Didn't exist prior to You know what 20 years ago how long has it been Yeah it's been right right around 20 years

53:50

That's right okay so the acna Comes out of Out of the

53:55

The african bishops as you just mentioned But they're saying okay but we Have succession here and this is where we're getting

54:02

Our succession from are you really then Still anglican because are they anglican Or are they african are you the african

54:08

Church of north america now or are you And again i'm not trying to make it Too much of a joke so so the

54:14

Communion of anglicanism is far Spread there's a lot of anglicans in australia New zealand uh even in malaysia

54:20

One of the biggest churches in malaysia Where we help start a church uh one of the biggest Churches in anglican church so the anglican

54:27

Communion is about 80 million But did that exist prior To the divide with rome or Would those churches have been considered roman churches

54:34

Prior to that well If you ask rome they're considered roman Churches because they claim everything but If you ask anybody else those churches

54:42

Were planted from the church of england Now they want to take credit for it Because they're in communion for it but who

54:48

Started these churches missionaries went to africa Missionaries sent to australia New zealand etc it was the church

54:54

Of england that was commissioning and Authorizing these mission groups to Go and it's because Of these mission groups going that these churches

55:02

Were started and new bishops Were formed from the church of england Of course rome had a play

55:08

In that because they were like i said When you would ordain archbishops Over these areas they would bring

55:14

Delegates from rome when they were in africa I'm pretty sure they actually Brought some north african bishops that were already

55:20

In existence down into these other Regions like i know the ethiopic Tradition back to matthew

55:27

Was involved etc so There's multiple aspects where other Residing bishops would come in and help

55:33

Create Church cultures with a leader So even

55:38

Though those churches are in africa Their succession is still Connected back to the church of england

55:44

Which goes back to its roots That we just went down The canterbury trail with so There's still

55:51

I'm sorry would they have identified Themselves prior to The divide with rome would they have

55:58

Would the church have identified itself as The church of england yeah Yep they would call themselves anglicans or In the case of africa they

56:06

Would have called themselves North african anglicans Or something of the sort because Anglicans i wouldn't just call

56:14

Themselves catholic they would Use the word catholic in the sense

56:19

Of universal they wouldn't have used The word roman catholic because they were not roman Because they were not practicing

56:25

The liturgy the same way Again there's similarities in our liturgies But there was always distinction

56:31

To england's liturgy Has always been different from rome there's Things in it that are different from rome so What liturgy you use kind of Defines your territory

56:41

We had communion with rome With the pope though Any anglican that Any anglican that Sees the pope as A first amongst equals

56:53

Is fine with it in fact there's negotiations Going on right now with the potentiality Of that happening again for the first time in 400 years

57:01

If the pope is what the pope Was i don't know of any anglican that's Opposed to it if he is what he

57:07

Is today that's the issue We have with the pope that he has become Something that he never was and So that's been going on for a very very very

57:15

Long time that was being pushed Back on like i was saying with king alfred That was being pushed on by other

57:21

Kings and then king henry was just The one that severed the Whole thing um so king

57:27

Henry the eighth obviously wanted an annulment didn't Get it there was way more to it than The catholics wanted like it wasn't just Simply he didn't get his way and then he threw a tantrum

57:35

That's he Continued to try to Keep in communion

57:41

With rome uh he would write Letters back and forth to the pope the pope would write Back to him they had a cordial relationship

57:46

It wasn't It wasn't as dramatic as everybody wants it To be but it was a big deal

57:53

I don't want to downplay the big Deal that it was but these Churches that were started from england would have

57:58

Associated their mother church from england not From rome they would say they're catholic Universal they would not say

58:05

We're roman christians they would say That we were they would say they're african Christians that are englican

58:11

And the reason they would say that is because that's Teaching the the relationship they Have to mother church mother church was

58:17

The church of england they were always seen As the mother church rome Being again a communion

58:23

With that mother church They never saw each other as rome England african churches

58:29

It was rome England african churches in a straight Line not a we're over Everybody uh and this is

58:37

The mistake that well be as recently made Even with the african bishops Because they rejected his authority over This same -sex union

58:45

Blessing and well We wrote a letter to them pretty much demanding That they get over themselves

58:51

And the african bishops were about and said We're we're not under your Jurisdiction and and england no longer

58:57

Rules these lands because there was a time When england was actually ruling over Portions of africa and they

59:03

Pretty much said we're not under your providence both Spiritually and governmental Anymore like we don't need to answer

59:09

To you uh as to why Keep in mind out of 80 million Anglicans over 65

59:15

Million of them are conservative and have Rejected the leadership Of archbishop well be and have rejected

59:21

The episcopal church And other liberal groups uh that Are still with me because they're a minority

59:27

The methodists uh You know for a long time were Were kept out of the

59:33

The far reaches of Uh of That type of ungodly

59:39

Ideology because of the african Methodists and it sounds like the same situation With the anglicans the african anglicans

59:45

Are unwilling to go where the Where the um The anglican church has gone absolutely

59:51

And fun fact john and Charles wesley died anglican not Methodist um it's funny they

59:57

Get credited for starting this whole movement But they never moved Themselves and their ordinations from The anglican church they died anglican

01:00:05

Ministers um so Fun fact for the methodists come back to mama church Anyway go ahead next

01:00:11

Question uh well You said also earlier that the first baptist Had been an anglican so i

01:00:17

Guess you'd call everybody back to mama church Huh well they left They left the church of england and again

01:00:23

This is this is the issue that Even today if you read Some of the liturgy today in our in our

01:00:29

Prayer book There's prayers of repentance for the Church in the past england

01:00:35

Became the problem with England just like in rome It became a church state

01:00:41

So Your baptism As a member of the

01:00:47

Church of england was also Your Citizenship so There's a lot of connection here in Parents The original people that pushed away from Infant baptism wasn't a theological

01:01:00

Reason necessarily At first it was it was an Issue of you're forcing

01:01:06

Our children to be something that we want Them to make their own decisions for and there Was more to it than a theological tie

01:01:12

It was it was a governmental tie And a theological tie so There's a lot of issues

01:01:17

That came into play there and England really did become A hierarchical set of Jerks and there's a

01:01:26

Lot of evil they did There's a lot of unnecessary murder Killing War that took

01:01:33

Place in the church of england and again You know even if you go Through the prayer book today and usually

01:01:39

It's prayed quite often that God would forgive The sins of our past As a church

01:01:47

And so You know anglicans are the most repentant People i've ever been around They repent for sins they didn't do

01:01:55

Their ancestry Lines did and their Church lines did four or five hundred

01:02:01

Years ago so there's a lot of evil That happened in rome there's a lot of evil that Happened in england There's still evil happening there today

01:02:09

But christ has always sustained a Remnant of Today that remnant is not a remnant

01:02:15

That the liberals are a remnant but God has always sustained his True leaders and his true

01:02:21

Bishops and there's always been A line where somebody stood up and Tried to defend the truth

01:02:27

And that's where the puritans kind of came in They're like okay let's pull it back here Like you guys are getting a little bit

01:02:34

Obnoxious and out of line and traditional Outside of scripture So the puritans were probably the best thing that ever happened

01:02:39

To the church of england and made them rethink Some of their polity Which many of them went on and Started particular baptist

01:02:47

Ideas and and congregationalists And so we see a lot of these Things happen as a

01:02:53

Response to the abuse of england That's why the pilgrims came here you know And that's what i was going to say

01:02:59

You know you being a Part of the acna which is a Divide from the anglican

01:03:05

Church It Itself because of the Need for reform aren't

01:03:11

You in that sense giving A tacit approval To the reformation and saying what happened

01:03:18

In the reformation was actually A right thing sure and To be clear we're not the acna

01:03:23

Is not apart from the anglican communion We've removed ourselves from the Leadership of the archbishop of Canterbury we are still in The anglican communion

01:03:33

Um Universally we are in the same communion We've just rejected the leadership

01:03:38

Would they see you that way would they Say you're you're our you're part Of us well be would

01:03:44

Say that we are sectarian because We broke from his leadership The problem is he's got to say that About 65 million anglicans

01:03:53

Yeah but the same thing could be Said and again i'm not trying to debate I'm just trying to in my

01:03:58

Mind wrap my head around this because Lutherans and and And calvinists would say

01:04:05

We never divided from the catholic Church we divided from the false teaching That was happening and but we're still catholic

01:04:11

We're still part of the universal church Therefore we still have apostolic Succession therefore we still have

01:04:16

This line that takes us back to the early church We still are a genuine church Because We have maintained the faith

01:04:24

Once we're all delivered to the saints Even though we're no longer part of this Corrupt oversight

01:04:30

Which has become Far too corrupt for us to be able to support And i think i think for the last 500 years

01:04:36

Rome has demonstrated itself to be correct So that goes back to the point of succession Is two things it's not just a hand on head

01:04:43

It's a scripture in heart And scripture practiced orthodoxy And so Any church

01:04:50

That has the the two Qualities those two things Is a succession church is

01:04:56

An apostolic church is a true church The problem with some of the Reformation and by the way some of the lutherans

01:05:02

Still have succession In fact there's lutherans in malaysia That have succession the gentleman

01:05:08

I was telling you about samuel his great grandfather Brought lutheranism to the country Malaysia as a

01:05:14

Succession leader In lutheran and so Succession Lutherans are in malaysia so they

01:05:22

Still have some succession The problem that happened Later and by the way calvin desired

01:05:28

The episcopate We see places where calvin Was actually writing desiring

01:05:34

To have the episcopate and Was trying to strategize On how to do it he died before He was able to pull it off in Geneva but i think

01:05:44

If calvin would have lived another 10 years It wouldn't shock me if The episcopacy came back to Geneva but it would have been a reuniting

01:05:52

Of the office by hand on head And also the Doctrine so we would say that The 65 million anglicans that are under Succession bishops right now are the true

01:06:02

Anglicans because we are faithful To both the hands on head succession But also the doctrine of orthodoxy

01:06:08

And that wellbe has left Orthodoxy and that is why these other Bishops have called wellbe to repentance

01:06:13

He has left orthodoxy and His commitment to the Canons and covenants of The anglican faith by blessing

01:06:21

Same -sex unions he has broken Canon by doing therefore he is Illegitimate he's calling us illegitimate

01:06:27

But we're still this the rest Of the bishops are still hands on head Whether it's all the

01:06:34

Gafcon churches The global south all That all these african churches

01:06:39

The ones in australia new zealand The acna the rec We all split from the

01:06:46

Episcopals and them And they're The ones that actually broke canon law They're the ones that actually went against The orthodox faith that was in our canons

01:06:55

So they may have Hand on head but they don't have Proper orthodox practices

01:07:01

We have both so Yeah there's an inside debate about Who's legit but at the end of the

01:07:07

Day the evidence points to who is Practicing what the church has always put in Its canons they're not they're changing

01:07:13

The canons they're bringing in Woke ideas and new Concepts that the church has never

01:07:19

Blessed same -sex unions with And left Orthodox practice by Tampering and patronizing

01:07:27

Islamic faith And hindu faith and letting them into the Church and creating some sort of Christian something with them

01:07:35

It's it's against orthodoxy It's against practices against canon law So they're they're the

01:07:41

True sectarians and it Be if you're asking me I know that sounds Harsh there's good

01:07:46

Christians Still fighting for the church Of england they're still orthodox People in the church of england

01:07:52

Fighting for reform The one of the things that Somebody joked about recently with anglicans

01:07:58

Is that we're always reforming Always we were Reforming before the reformation

01:08:04

We were reforming in the reformation Keep in mind a lot of The anglicans went to calvin

01:08:10

And geneva for refuge and to Germany with luther's people When bloody mary went nuts

01:08:16

And started trying to make England catholic again She started killing

01:08:22

Its bishops and A lot of the priests fled England and calvin gladly

01:08:28

This is why i think calvin was influenced With the idea of succession Anglicans show up to geneva needing

01:08:34

Refuge he takes him in They get calvinized And he starts getting influenced by the episcopate

01:08:41

Episcopacy And so why are a lot Of anglicans calvinist because A lot of the leaders of england

01:08:48

During the time of bloody mary Ran to geneva and Learned the doctrine of the reformation

01:08:54

From calvin and from Luther that's why there's a lot of lutheran Type anglicans and a lot of calvinists

01:09:00

In anglicanism because during that time They sought refuge From the reformers and they

01:09:06

They agreed with the reformation And after bloody mary did that they definitely Agreed with the reformation

01:09:13

I want to make An analogy that may Upset some people so Well i hope it

01:09:20

Doesn't upset you we've had a nice Conversation so far do you Do any martial arts do you

01:09:26

Have any martial arts background ever do It's just basketball football and baseball Okay i've been

01:09:32

I've been in karate for 30 years I've taught i've got a fifth degree Black belt in japanese shodokan and have

01:09:38

Been in that for a very long time and We even have a karate program at our church It's just something that we

01:09:43

Do a lot of churches have baseball or Basketball we have a karate program And one of the

01:09:49

Things that everyone wants to claim in the Karate world is everybody wants To claim that they have the

01:09:55

They they they're the ones that go Back to the original you know people Who invented this they're the guys and And there's this

01:10:04

Sort of joke Is the guys who you know well we Have the we're we're the originals

01:10:10

Because our kata is In katas the forms it's sort of like In a sense liturgy this is the ours

01:10:16

Is right and everybody else is wrong And what you find is You find everybody's

01:10:22

Finding some way to bring themselves Back to the original that was the point i was making Earlier about me yes i was ordained

01:10:28

By someone who was ordained by someone else We can probably find a point where Whoever ordained three or four generations

01:10:33

Back maybe five generations back was part Of this line that you're talking about And i can put myself in the same line you're in I mean this is where i think the

01:10:41

The problem that i have with The succession claim Is is the claim of That you know i'm carrying these papers

01:10:49

With me that say i'm in this line therefore i'm Legit and you're not and that's i'm not I don't i don't think that's what you're saying but i think that's

01:10:55

What some are saying that that the legitimacy Of my my ministry Is based upon Being a part of this line

01:11:04

Does that make sense Yeah it does and you know for Us you know one of the things that Anglicans are big on when

01:11:11

It comes to what you're saying like looking at Other ministries which Again might be called sectarian

01:11:17

Or something like that but We believe That god is not bound

01:11:23

In the sacraments so Catholics are a little Different than us on this so Everything has to be done your

01:11:31

Validity is based on Their orders Their sacraments We believe that sacraments

01:11:39

Is the guarantee of god's Presence and power To his people

01:11:45

And so when you have The proper orthodoxy and Succession there it's more of This is the promise

01:11:53

Of god for his church When we look at other churches on the outside Say yourself or others

01:11:59

What we say is that When you guys are issuing The eucharist or Whatever you call it communion lord's supper

01:12:07

We called it communion lord's supper when i was Baptist There's actually a push to do this more

01:12:13

I have a lot of reformed baptists Jeremiah Nordier and others they're big Formed baptists they do eucharist every week

01:12:19

And they call it eucharist they do creed They do things like that We do the lord's supper every week

01:12:24

And we use the word eucharist but we It's not part of our Contemporary or excuse me

01:12:31

Our common parlance is to Not necessarily use the word eucharist We explain it we talk about what the word means

01:12:36

And have no issue with it It's just like using The term

01:12:43

Mother of god for mary we don't have a Problem with it we understand what it means but in General it confuses people if they tie it

01:12:49

To some form of maryology from rome So it's a It's a parlance issue

01:12:54

We call it buzzwords but You know all of a sudden Wait y 'all are catholic

01:12:59

Exactly So We when we see

01:13:06

Like your church doing something Like that we have No right to put god in a

01:13:12

Box and say god's not Meeting with his people So I've always said it this way

01:13:19

That god is not bound by the sacraments But he is bountiful within him And so God Can do what he wants and When we look at scripture

01:13:31

There is a Intentional drive For the god of scripture to Meet with his people

01:13:39

And meet with his people Who may not do things Exactly the way they

01:13:45

Should have We see god in his mercy meeting with People we see god showing up for his

01:13:51

People who didn't deserve it That's what the sacraments are they're acts of Grace to begin with So when you're serving the eucharist

01:13:58

We as anglicans Would never say or shouldn't Oh keith foskey

01:14:05

You know god's not meeting With his people when they're doing that that's not Our place to say that because we just put god

01:14:10

In some boxes if we control him within Our system and we believe god Is bigger than the system we believe

01:14:17

God is bigger than the sacraments And so we Encourage Churches like your own to think deeply

01:14:25

About sacraments think deeply about eucharist And when you Say things like we do it every week that excites

01:14:31

Me it doesn't make me go Boo you're doing it all wrong fix it You know it excites

01:14:36

Me that that you see the value in It because when i was a baptist and then Admittingly as a pastor

01:14:42

We did eucharist like four times a year Tops Um I was in with i had a group of independent

01:14:50

Baptists on a couple months ago and one Guy said we do it once a year and i don't Remember the last time we did it

01:14:56

I just Did not make sense to me So in that situation it's

01:15:02

Easy to say hey man You're probably not practicing New testament here like this This is a little bit serious

01:15:09

Like that's a serious thing to me but to Hear that people like yourself or Jeremiah norty or others

01:15:16

Practicing that Weekly it encourages Me as an anglican to see that So no

01:15:23

I'm not in the business of You know coming in and doing This to everybody that's not my job

01:15:29

I'm not god i'm not the holy spirit and if God wants to meet with his people and about this Church outside of Succession and all this other stuff

01:15:37

He has every right to do it he wants to meet With his people you guys have the right faith Um baptists

01:15:43

Have the right faith lutherans Have many of the lutherans Have right faith And baptists aren't all right either there's

01:15:51

A lot i know There are even Church there's some yeah it's orthodox

01:15:57

In in it's it the issues between Us are more orthopraxy than orthodoxy Sure Well i appreciate you saying that and that's

01:16:05

Encouraging to hear i do Want to um i want to Ask you some sort of lightning round Questions because we have we're

01:16:13

Now at 100 or right An hour and 15 minutes and um For those who are staying with us

01:16:19

Because i know sometimes people start a podcast And don't finish it which is terrible for the Algorithm i want them to finish the show

01:16:25

Uh i i'd like for them To uh to hear Some and these are going to Be not necessarily easy

01:16:33

Questions but they're doctrinal and i Understand that within anglicanism there Won't always be a

01:16:40

Unifying voice On some of these it might be that well Some anglicans see that this way some

01:16:45

See it this way i'm more concerned With you personally And you can say if you want to Preface by saying well anglicans

01:16:53

Differ but i believe this That's fine and and um because I'm just curious you as a person where you stand

01:16:59

Because i know where you were as an independent Baptist and as a southern baptist i graduated From southern baptist seminary so i

01:17:05

Understand at least the doctrines that you were Weaned on uh or Weaned is a terrible way of saying maybe

01:17:10

The those in which you were Trained on yes uh So uh let's

01:17:17

Go let's start down the line Obviously you believe in infant baptism i i Heard your podcast where you talked about you

01:17:23

Uh you know that was one of the things that Seeing that in the early church But would you say that infant baptism

01:17:28

Is uh is an act of regeneration Or is it uh simply A covenantal baptism as seen in the

01:17:34

Presbyterian church My perspective and again there's Latitude here i think the

01:17:40

I think it's closer to my View is closer to presbyterianism Um because Anglicans don't believe just because a baby is

01:17:48

Baptized that baby is saved catholics Do we don't We believe in apostasy

01:17:54

We believe they reject the Act of grace is a act of Grace and a call of god to bring

01:18:00

That child to faith And that they can walk away from that And there's warnings all through the new testament

01:18:06

For people in that very predicament Do you believe that a person Who is legitimately

01:18:13

Regenerated uh Can't ever walk away completely Do you believe or do you have A hold to a view of eternal security

01:18:20

No i i believe that Um true saving faith Will persevere uh

01:18:26

This is actually where some of the debate went with Trent horn and and jimmy And that's why we ended up on Purgatory somehow but uh i

01:18:34

Believe that true saving faith Will persevere to the End um i

01:18:40

Think augustine taught that And he's one of the early church fathers Represents roman teaching in africa

01:18:46

But um i i do Believe in perseverance okay Uh when it comes to The participation in the lord's supper

01:18:54

Uh obviously you refer to it as The eucharist um do you Do you hold to a

01:19:00

Transubstantiation view do you hold to A sacramental presence view perhaps A spiritual presence like it's held in calvinism

01:19:06

Or right what would be your Particular position on that so this Is where anglicans are a lot more like the eastern

01:19:12

Church uh we reject Transubstantiation although there's some anglo Catholics that don't uh some anglo

01:19:18

Catholics accept transubstantiation I think that Transubstantiation is

01:19:24

Too nuanced um You know you're talking about Aquinas terminology a lot of Philosophical influence from Aristotelian ideas yeah

01:19:33

Substance and accidents things like that I think it's unnecessary um We believe that the elements

01:19:40

Through special means of grace Become the body and blood as Anglicans were similar to the orthodox

01:19:45

We just we leave it to mystery and we don't Explain it um we don't Call it transubstantiation

01:19:51

We don't think that's necessary Um we're Closer that's where we're closer to our origin

01:19:58

To the eastern church we would Be a lot closer to them In your church do you practice

01:20:04

Closed or open communion For instance what if if I were to visit your church would

01:20:09

I be Welcome to the table yeah As long as you affirm the creed The Nicene creed

01:20:15

Which I think you would and you're baptized In the name of the father son and holy spirit Yep So I wouldn't have to I wouldn't have to affirm

01:20:23

Your understanding of the table To participate in the table Nope that was the

01:20:29

Interesting answer the Lutherans told me I was not welcome So now there might be

01:20:35

Some priests I want to preface this to you I don't want to Speak for all Anglicans there might be some priests that are Stricter on this you specifically asked about the church

01:20:42

Yeah I meant so Specifically in the churches that are around here In the same diocese

01:20:48

Um you can even Differ with us on like baptism And things like that the key is

01:20:53

Uh your baptism Is the name the father son and holy spirit You're baptized in the trinitarian god

01:20:59

And you affirm the faith as Declared in the Nicene creed If someone were to come to you

01:21:05

And say that they had made A profession of faith and they desired baptism And they wanted to be

01:21:11

Baptized by immersion would you Allow for that or would you Reject that or would you try to Teach them out of that So the

01:21:20

Anglican prayer book Actually suggests Immersion It's interesting how many

01:21:26

I think as does the didache You mentioned So the didache

01:21:32

I'm kind of I'm a didache Guy so Me too I actually love the document So I enjoy

01:21:38

What's it you know Immersion in Living water and if not then you can do

01:21:44

Still water and cold rather than You know I don't think You know I've always thought this was funny

01:21:50

About a baptist how adamant They are about the mode of baptism but they don't believe Anything spiritual is happening in baptism

01:21:55

But yet they're adamant about the mode Um but when it comes To the mode of baptism

01:22:01

I don't Think it's as important Um as it is

01:22:06

Necessitated because it is The water and the word Coming together in that moment that Is doing something of grace and So whether it's fully

01:22:16

Submerged my personal Preference my personal preference Is immersion when my

01:22:22

Kids were baptized now my kids were old enough When I came to Anglicanism Um you know my son's 11 my daughter's

01:22:28

Eight you know they've Made their own profession so this was A little bit easier for me Um because they were already at the age

01:22:36

Where they understood the gospel and they'd already been Taught the gospel their whole lives And they affirmed their

01:22:42

They were able to even in their Baptisms um Recant the world of flesh and the devil

01:22:48

They were able to do the creed on their own I didn't have to speak for them they were able to Speak for their own faith and When they were baptized

01:22:56

I was adamant That it would be done by immersion Um it is my preferred

01:23:02

Method if I was in a situation Where I couldn't do that I don't think the person is less baptized

01:23:08

If I poured in the name of the father Son and holy spirit but my preferred Method is is immersion

01:23:14

And actually that's how it reads in the prayer book That's interesting yeah Um when

01:23:20

When you hear the term Via media this is a term That's often applied to Anglicanism Uh I have heard it

01:23:28

Said that via media means That it is a medial Way between Protestantism and Catholics but I've also heard

01:23:36

It's a medial way between Calvinism and Lutheranism I've heard Different explanations of that So how do you

01:23:44

Use the term do you think it's helpful And do you think it's uh how do you Interpret it so I Use the term for people that are coming

01:23:51

Into Anglicanism the middle way Um and Remember it was Elizabeth That brought this middle way

01:23:59

In after Mary Butchered the clergy And You had again

01:24:06

Now you have people coming back from Geneva Once Mary died people started Coming back um

01:24:13

And you now have Reformed Anglicans and then you still

01:24:19

Had people in the church of England that were loyal to Rome And so you had a great schism even in England that Elizabeth was

01:24:26

Left to clean up So What's said the middle way

01:24:32

She created the middle way which Is why a lot of Anglicans will say We're reformed Catholics That's what they'll say we're reformed

01:24:39

Catholics Uh I I think that's accurate

01:24:46

Enough to say I think You can say that and still be accurate I don't know if it's fully genuine

01:24:53

Um I know that Anglicans like to believe that We are the epitome of what Rome Was before they were

01:25:00

Corrupted by the middle ages and I Agree with that I think that the practices Before the middle ages are what was preserved

01:25:06

In Anglicanism in England But I don't know if we're actually The middle way because Because it's not like A single church is the middle way

01:25:15

You have Anglicans that are Very very much reformed and low church You have Anglicans that are super Super high church and Anglo Catholic and their doctrine

01:25:26

Is very similar to the Catholics Outside of a few Major issues in the middle ages that Came into Rome like Purgatory Then you have reformed

01:25:38

Anglicans that are Don't even know like No icons

01:25:43

No You know Mariology You know no way to the

01:25:50

Pope ever Kind of situation And those Two groups you're not going to find in the same

01:25:57

Parish or church So to say that we're the middle way is Kind of misleading we're not the middle way

01:26:03

In a single parish but there Are churches that are pretty balanced I call them mid church

01:26:08

They kind of take a lot of the ancient tradition And a lot of the More reformed tradition

01:26:14

And they blend it very well That's the kind I'm in I actually enjoy that I don't think

01:26:20

I could be the High high church snubby Anglo Catholics who I love dearly

01:26:25

If they're listening to this but Boy y 'all need to get a personality And then on the other hand

01:26:30

I don't like the low low church where you walk In and you're like go back out Look on the sign make sure you didn't walk to a

01:26:36

Presbyterian Church either So I think there's a balance but I think it's

01:26:41

Difficult to say that we're the middle way I know That's a term coined to us With Elizabeth But I don't know how accurate

01:26:49

That is in a single practice Of looking at Anglican churches Gotcha I like to make fun of it in my videos

01:26:55

I'll mention that Like when I was doing my shooting video It was the 9mm

01:27:01

Carbine rifle and it was a pistol caliber Carbine because it's the middle way between the Pistol and the rifle so that was the

01:27:07

Anglican church Last question and then we'll Begin to wrap up You mentioned you were defending the doctrine of Sola Fide and this coming

01:27:17

Week I'm going to be preaching at A friend's church He invited me to come and preach and so I'm going to be preaching and the title

01:27:25

Of my message is why we Shouldn't abandon penal substitution And that is something that I'm Going to be

01:27:33

Affirming I've written an Article on it recently and continue To believe that penal substitution Is a foundational part of the gospel

01:27:40

Would you as an Anglican Affirm penal substitution or atonement As part of the gospel

01:27:46

And what do you say to those Who would reject it Again I don't want to speak for all

01:27:53

Anglicans because Anglicans really do have a lot of latitude I hold

01:27:58

To it I think it is essential I think

01:28:04

I say this quite often When I'm asked about things because Labels have stigmas

01:28:11

And there's People that hold penal substitutionary Atonement Or penal and substitutionary

01:28:18

Atonement or things like limited Atonement anything in that relation In that vein That first of all

01:28:25

Misrepresent a lot to Their jerks about it Um And so I think that when we

01:28:32

When we have discussions of doctrine like that We have to preface ourselves a lot like I'm not these guys

01:28:38

But I am this And so I think when it comes to The gospel I think a lot of times there's

01:28:44

People that agree with each other about 95 % Of the time on these things And it's the 5 % where we just Don't view the same

01:28:52

But I do think it is important To the gospel message I think the atonement has so many

01:28:58

Multi -faceted perspectives to it And I think that What Christ did on the cross was not

01:29:03

Limited to a singular Terminology of theology That we have given But that term and it's teaching

01:29:12

I think the teaching Is correct and I think it is orthodox Good deal, good deal

01:29:20

Alright well uh How about one fun question Everybody loves a fun question I said that was going to be the last one

01:29:26

But we can't end on penal substitution That's just too harsh If you were able

01:29:31

If you were a movie director Producer or whatever And you were able to make any bible story

01:29:39

Into a movie that hasn't Been made So you can't do

01:29:44

Dave and Goliath or Noah and the Ark You gotta do something that hasn't been made You as a bible student and scholar

01:29:50

You know all the bible stories Which one do you think would be A great movie You know

01:29:57

I don't know if it would be a great movie But it would be fun to do It might get bad ratings on Rotten Tomatoes But The stories around Elijah and Elisha Are just I know there's movies that cover some of their big stories

01:30:12

Like Prime thing over the prophets of Baal with Elijah And weird things

01:30:18

But particularly Elisha His life And death I mean

01:30:24

I haven't seen a movie With a bunch of she bears Taken out of I mean it might be a horror film

01:30:32

But Even all the way to his death Where we see his relics are laying in a tomb

01:30:38

And There's a battle going on And a guy falls into his tomb Lands on his dead bones

01:30:44

And springs up and he's resurrected from the dead bones So I There might be a movie on Elisha I don't know

01:30:50

But I don't remember ever seeing a movie on his life From the time of his bald head being made fun of To some guy being resurrected

01:30:58

On his dead bones on accident I mean so I'd probably want to do something with Elisha And some of the cool stories surrounding him

01:31:05

I got you I like it That's good the dead bones thing That would be interesting If you look right over my shoulder here

01:31:11

These are my fake movie posters that I created for my backdrop These are all That's my friend the reformator instead of the terminator

01:31:18

Back there but right here is mine And that's the story of Shechem Which is when Dinah the daughter

01:31:23

Of Isaac was Or Jacob Was mistreated

01:31:30

And then the two brothers Went and destroyed I want to see that but in a

01:31:36

John Wick style Take them all out That's right You come into a room and you're taking

01:31:43

That must have been one crazy Story Well at least siblings got along Back then my goodness

01:31:50

Enough to kill a whole city for it It's crazy Well brother

01:31:55

I appreciate you coming on the show And being able to get to know you Better and perhaps one day we can

01:32:01

Get together and talk more I have a dozen more questions I'd like to pick your brain about And I'd love to have guests come back

01:32:07

And return so if you're Willing we'd love to have you back on sometime soon Sure love it I'd love it

01:32:13

It was just a blast I enjoy these Conversations they're fun they're relaxing And even with differences

01:32:18

I love them Great well thank you so much for being a part of the Show today we're going to put all your information In the links below That way if anybody wants to find you we'll be able to send them

01:32:27

To your website and to your podcast and all those things Excellent all right So again I want to thank you guys for being a part of the show

01:32:33

Today thank you for continuing to support Us and again one of the best things you can Do right here on YouTube is hit the subscribe button

01:32:39

If you haven't already if you like this Video hit the thumbs up button and if you didn't like It be sure to hit the thumbs down button

01:32:45

Twice thank you again for listening To your Calvinist podcast my name is Keith Foskey And I've been your