Bow Tie Dialogue: THE ANGLICAN SEQUEL! (Guest Stephen Boyce)

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And welcome back to your Calvinist podcast My name is Keith Polosky And as always, I am your

Calvinist And you see what I'm wearing today So you know what that means That's right, we are back for another

Bowtie Dialogue Actually, today is the first time we're having a

Bowtie Dialogue sequel This is Anglican II, The Wrath of King Henry VIII I have with me

Stephen Boyce, a minister in the ACNA And we're going to be bringing him in in just one moment

But before we do that, I just want to take care of a couple of housekeeping issues Before we get started I want to remind you that this podcast is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church So if you're in the

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And again, minister in the ACNA Church Stephen Boyce Stephen is the founder of the

Facts Podcast That primarily focuses on the Church Fathers The Apocryphal Works, the

Canon of Scripture The Texts of Scripture and Scriptural Exegesis He and his wife Claire live in Greenville, South Carolina And have two children,

Jeremiah and Keziah Stephen holds a PhD in the area of Canon and Text From Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary His main study was on the

Gnostic Texts and the Canonical Gospel His dissertation covered textual analysis on Codex H Which included the early patristic writings

That contained readings from the Septuagint and the New Testament He is currently a contributing scholar for RTB And an

Anglican apologist He has pastored in two churches And helped three church plants nationally and internationally

Stephen, that's quite a resume I want to thank you for being with me today On the Bowtie Dialogues here at the

Your Calvinist Podcast Absolutely, it's so good to be with you I've always enjoyed listening to your content

Followed you for the last couple of years now It's exciting for the opportunity to get to answer some questions And have some fun discussions about King Henry VIII It looks like our hero

We're going to have a conversation about him That's always fun Well, you know, as I was telling you before we got started

And I know the audience may or may not know this Because some people just may recently be following me

But I've been doing Bowtie Dialogues now for about a year And I've had the opportunity to interview people

From different denominational backgrounds I started with the PCA and I've done Lutherans And I've done a few others

But I've already done an Anglican episode I had several Anglican brothers come on Including Drew, who is a friend of mine

He set it up with me But I'm thankful for tonight Because this is going to be an opportunity

To go a little bit deeper And it's a one -on -one conversation I find sometimes that a big group

Can be sort of a cacophony And it's hard to keep up with what's going on So I'm looking forward to being able to dig

A little bit deeper with you About the history of you And you run the gamut

You go from Baptist To Anglican It's not like you were already a

Lutheran Or someone that was more high church You were an independent Baptist Am I right?

Independent and Southern Can you give us a little bit Of a history snapshot

Of how you went from Being an independent fundamentalist Baptist To being a minister and Apologist in the

Anglican church Yeah, so it was quite Quickly in the Independent to Southern So as I graduated undergrad

I went to a small Bible college Independent fundamental and King James only And I Always liked the idea of King James only -ism until I learned

Greek And then once I started Learning Greek I realized This position doesn't

Substantiate itself by evidence And so I started switching To the new King James And that made everybody mad

I stopped wearing a suit and tie when I preached That made everybody mad We plugged in the guitar on Sunday That made a lot of people mad

You're on your way out the door then So about two years into pastoring I started pastoring at 21 years old

And way too young And it really burned me out But about year two into that church

I started realizing I'm not an Independent Baptist Because I disagree with so many of these

Things that are going on Well a lot of the Southern Baptists Because here in the South it's Baptist territory And I had a lot of Southern Baptist friends

I had a mentor Southern Baptist And he was like I'm here to save you Rescue you from Independent Baptists Because he was one too

And so he introduced me to some people He's like well we'll put your name out there We'll put your resume out there

We'll see what happens He was like you might be an associate with me for a while Well within two weeks

Of putting my resume out I had a couple churches interested Next thing you know I'm being hired at a Southern Baptist church

Which I really enjoyed I actually enjoyed the conversations And things like that But while that was happening

I did a masters in the background I did initial work in a doctorate in theology And then

I ended up really struggling And just being burned out in ministry By the age of 27

So I was doing church from 21 to 27 As a senior pastor and Independent In a Southern Baptist church

So after my family was completely burned out with that I ended up Being encouraged to do a

Ph .D I didn't want to do a Ph .D I didn't feel like I had time to do a Ph .D And then

It just so happened that Somebody had read an article that I wrote On the story of the woman caught in adultery A textual analysis on it

And a professor Down in Louisiana Had kind of recruited me to a new program he was doing

That was going to involve Canon and text And he specifically wanted to focus on a lot of the

Gnostic texts And Nag Hammadi that were discovered in Egypt That a lot of people were not studying

Like the Gospel of Mary The Gospel of Judas The Gospel of Truth The Gospel of Peter was found later in a different cave

But when you look at these texts I was comparing with the Gospels But as a result

He wanted me to do my dissertation Particularly on a manuscript And it's a long, long name It's called Codex H That is in Jerusalem And that manuscript actually has

The writing of the Didache The teaching of the Apostles The only full manuscript we have Written by a scribe named

Leo He dates it and names himself at the very end And it was in the 11th century I hated his scribal work

Everything was shorthand But in it was First and second

Clement The longer recensions Of the letters of Ignatius The Didache And other early church works

So as a Baptist Still searching for things And looking into the early church

From the time of the end of the first century Into the end of the second century With the documents I had in front of me I began to investigate the early church

The high view of sacraments The high view of the episcopate The high view of unity within the church

Credo language And so as a result of that study I really struggled But while we were doing that I was helping church plants

I was helping a church plant in Malaysia In Seattle and in Asheville Over those spans

And they were all connected And so once I finished my dissertation We had done a lot of apologetics

So I started debating guys Like Richard Carrier Who started the Misesist movement Robert Price Dialoguing with Bart Ehrman Started realizing, oh wow

These guys have really legitimate concerns With Christianity We need to come up with good answers And so once I got into that forum

I met an Anglican apologist Named Jonathan Sheffield Who's down in Texas And he continued to take the work

That I was writing and researching And he was saying, how can you not See this and see this

And he started pointing things out And it was already a doubt in my mind Through study And just kind of over time

Really studying these texts And studying specific topics I started to realize that What I was as a

Baptist Was not what the early church was practicing And so I had a choice to make It wasn't easy

Because I have family And loved ones I was ordained in the

Baptist church twice Independent and Southern It was saying goodbye to Opportunities, jobs

And going into a world I didn't know And the one person I had contact with In the

Anglican church Is in Texas And so my wife and I just took a leap of faith We visited an

Anglican church here Didn't know a single person Just went and visited And took

Eucharist In the manner in which it is presented For the very first time And our lives were changed

And so it was deep And it was a long journey And there's so much more behind that But that's kind of the short end story

We went through Baptist And probably the worst thing that could have ever happened For a Baptist seminary is to allow their students

To read some of the early patristics Because it really shook my world Because it's like, wait, we don't practice that We don't have that And as a result, that's kind of what happened

So it was really stunning PhD work at a Baptist seminary That opened the door for me to look And honestly,

I couldn't be Roman Catholic There was too many things that I saw That were dogma

Later And they didn't pertain to the early church Things like some of the Mariology they have

The Ascension and Assumption of Mary Purgatory, indulgences A lot of things I was like, man, there's none of this

In the early writings Eastern Orthodoxy Was kind of too cliquish A lot of weird practices

And they were huge on icons Almost to a fault So as much as I love a lot of my friends

In these movements I couldn't be a part of that And so Anglicanism was really

The best suited Place with what we had studied And come to understand

All right As you were talking, I didn't want to interrupt you But I have a couple of quick things

I want to ask you about that And then we're going to move on to some other questions One, you mentioned the

Pericope Adultery Where do you fall on that? You said you did a study An article on it

Do you hold to that as being Genuine to the Gospel of John Or do you hold to that as Some scholars see it as being

A later Edition, or what are your thoughts? Yeah, so I don't think it was originally

In John, I think it actually For multiple reasons, the manuscript evidence Is one of them

To the syntactical language in it I investigated from Another student at Dallas Theological Seminary Who was under Dr.

Wallace Put out a research On the Lucan syntax That's in the story of the

Pericope And we do have manuscripts With it actually at the end And in sections of Luke Near the

Triumphal Entry And so he put together Lucan Identifiable words that were

In the Pericope So I went behind him, his name was Kyle Hughes I believe, and I went behind and actually found

Three additional ones that he had missed In his research, I think I came up with Twelve to his nine I could be wrong on my math

It was three more, whichever number it was And Put it out there, and I always joke that Who is at a higher

Risk of being stoned? A woman caught in adultery, or A scholar who denies its authenticity

In the Gospel of John And I feel like I'm at a greater Risk of being stoned for coming out

I had no idea that coming out and saying that Would cause so much havoc I think Dr. White and I I know we did

First John 5 -7, I know we did Acts 8 Together, I'm almost positive Dr. White and I did a program together

On John 7 -53 -8 -11 But I don't believe it is authentic I think it actually came from other traditions

The Gospel of the Hebrews Being one of them I think it's a true story, I think it really happened

I think forms of it were actually A part of Jesus' ministry It would not surprise me the least

If this really took place I don't know if it happened in the embellishment That we see it in our text

But nonetheless, I think that There's a mistake in removing A lot of this stuff from our translations

Because it is historic And there are Ancient traditions of reading

But I don't believe it belongs there There's also another reason really quick It messes up the feast day

In John 7 It says that it's on the last day of the feast Which was the feast

Demonstrating the last night Where they were going to hold up the torches Where they had already poured the water and said

Hosanna, they did the whole feast And if you go to the story Jesus is showing

That he is the water in chapter 7 And that he is the light Chapter 8 verse 12

If you stick the story in between them Actually what happens is Jesus goes away for a night And then comes back the next day

And actually if you go to chapter 7 It says that these things were happening on the last day of the feast And if it's on the last day of the feast

In chapter 7 And Jesus is pointing the feast As being fulfilled in him He's showing that the water and the fire

Were pictured to him I'm the light, I'm the water It would actually delay the fulfillment of the day

Because if the story is there Another day is pushed off He comes back in chapter 8 The day after the feast Rather than the last day of the feast

And he's fulfilling the lantern fire aspect A day late And that would be kind of odd Seeing how at night

That's what they did Jesus held up the lanterns Remembering the Exodus story And so to me there's also an issue

Just within the narrative Of timing when Jesus tried to do the fulfillment In addition to the textual analysis

See that's what I love about guys like you I can ask you a question like that And you know Not only everything

I want to know You know so much more Sorry if that's too long tell me to shorten my answer No I didn't mean it that way

Certainly not I just The thing about the feast day and all that That's just added

To all the things that I've heard And looked at as far as the text So that's extremely helpful

The other thing I was just going to mention in your talk You mentioned Robert Price I know a lot of people know who Bart Ehrman is But some of the listeners may not know who that is

I actually met Robert Price at James White's debate When it was here in Florida And he was a nice guy

Super nice Yeah but obviously Someone that I would disagree with on Many many many things

He's a member of the Jesus Seminar And a higher critic of scripture But jovial guy

Nice you know he and his wife And my wife and I sat and talked For a little while after the debate

And he was very kind to us So I thought he was He's like Santa Claus I was just fixing to say

I drew a picture of him I'm a doodler when I listen Especially to debates I like to My hands fidget so I draw

And so I drew a picture of him And that's what got our conversation going So I handed him the picture and he liked it

And so we had a conversation And I do remember the question That I asked because His approach in that debate

It was about the historicity of the text And his approach in that debate was That there was enough questions

That he couldn't say this is Authentic but he also wasn't Saying it wasn't he was more of a

Kind of a little more malleable But the atheists who were there Supporting him really

Were just hard core and so I asked the question I said are you Any more convinced that they're right

Than we're right and he goes not really I was like okay

I'm just curious Because they all think you're on their side And I think you're kind of like You know it was just an interesting

Part of that He's a good guy we mostly talked about The Gnostic Gospels I think we talked about the Gospel of Peter because I had

Produced my own translation of the fragment That we have we talked about That and the Gospel of Thomas and I think the

Gospel of Mary I had fun I nerded out with the guy We clearly disagreed

On the value He believes are just as valuable As the four canonical Gospels and we

Got into that a little bit but He was nothing but kind to me and very nice And he even followed up and stayed in touch

And we have a good relationship Well good I again another

Question comes into my mind and some this is Conversational that's why it's called conversation with Calvinist so we're going to get to the

Anglican Stuff in a minute I promise we're going to Pound on King Henry's casket here In just a moment. Oh boy

But the question Of the Gnostic Gospels And the non canonical

Non canonical Gospels One of the Things that is often argued

Is that the canonical Gospels are all First century in their In their writing in the

Non canonical or Gnostic Gospels Whatever we want to call them are later You know second third century is that an

Accurate statement because I've talked about that Before my teaching some Some would say Thomas is possibly first century

What are your thoughts on that? Sure yeah so Thomas would probably be the earliest I think it's around 110 to 115

I believe all of the canonical Gospels are in the first century. I think that A This is complex

I think a Hebrew Aramaic Matthew was circulating before Greek Mark once a

Greek Mark was Circulated a gospel Of Luke was produced for Paul and then The council in Jerusalem and Antioch Produced a

Greek Matthew Sent from the whole entire Church and then That was all done before 70

AD And then John was written in the 90s The Gnostic Gospels started presenting

Themselves probably through the gospel of Thomas Which I've come to conclude is not A singular written

Text we have to remember the gospel of Thomas Is a sayings gospel the Lagia it is 114

Teachings or sayings of Jesus or his Disciples and you can actually See they progress the theology

Actually progressed by the time you Hit around saying 70 And so when you go through the gospel

Of Thomas by the time you get to Saying 114 you have this Weird statement about Every woman must become male

In order to enter the kingdom and it's like What in the world does that mean but there's a Lot of late second century

Feminist Kind of ideas that Actually came into Gnostic they started Worshipping the female sex they really

Did it was this is Where you start seeing priestesses come into play This is where you see

Christian Christianity and paganism practices coming in And so you can actually See the progressiveness that almost leads

To open the door to the gospel of Mary Magdalene as some would say Just the gospel of Mary I think it's referring to Magdalene This is where theories come in That Jesus had a love affair with Mary Magdalene Like the gospel of Philip Because it says he kissed her

And thank you Dan Brown for butchering Gnostic theology and teaching everybody That Jesus had a love affair when he actually

Should know better know what that means In the Da Vinci code And so you start seeing the

Da Vinci code Actually made these popular But they're all The earliest is the gospel of Thomas and I think

It started the early second century But I don't think it was completed I think multiple Scribes worked on it and it wasn't

Completed until sometime in the late second And other gospels It was kind of like a cue

And I don't even really believe in cue But kind of a cue idea for the Gnostic Text it springboarded other ideas

And other texts to come Some of them are less heretical say Like the gospel of Peter although we don't have the whole

Thing but we have church Fathers saying Overall there's a lot of accuracy but there's

Some concern of docetism And we see that for example In the gospel of Peter when Jesus is on the cross

We have the saying my God My God why have you forsaken me quote Psalm 22 But in the gospel

Of Peter he says power my power Why have you forsaken Almost if the human

Had a power leave him that came upon Him at his baptism which is docetism Teaching so you kind of see some of the

Docetism in there So you can see That second century docetism

In that one so it can't be first century And then you have church fathers that help Identify these texts as they start

Coming they're listing them hey there's A document going around with the apostle Thomas's Name on it hey there's a document circulating

With Mary's name on it And you don't start seeing that to really mid Second century and so We have no way to trace it any earlier

I know there's some critical scholars that want The gospel of Peter to be in the first Century and some want the gospel

Of Thomas in the late first century I don't think it's provable I think theology Doesn't line up the evolution

Of docetism does not align With theology in those texts I think we Can't get any earlier than a hundred good

Deal good deal well okay so I'm Not a hundred percent wrong then because I've said That before no no I think you're spot on I think it's fair I'm always nervous when

I When I'm thinking about Things that I've taught and then I'm talking to an expert I'm like did I Get this right

Because I thought I had But again you're the expert in this

Area and it's the The study of these things that Led you to be an

Anglican which for me Is Somewhat confusing To say the least and I And I mean that in the

Nicest possible way Because I Have seen

I've actually done Shows about this How there seems to be a trend In Especially among young Christian men

There seems to be a trend of Moving toward the more traditional Representations Of Christianity such as Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy There's the whole

Orthobros movement I don't know if you're familiar With that term Okay and Guys like The Roman Catholic Apologist on his name

Escapes me now but he's No I'm thinking of the one that Debated James White a few years ago

He's very articulate Very smart Man and I can't think of his name

Trent Is you know one of those guys Who just articulates his position

Well and is very winsome And very kind and so There's a lot of movement

Out of the Sort of mainline Evangelical movement back into These more traditional

Long held Christian Movement I want to say

Christian representations Whether it be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox But when

I think of The Anglican Church And again please forgive me I mean this again in the nicest possible way

I don't think of it being ancient I don't think of it being represented by The early church

I think of it being A byproduct of Something similar to the Reformation Because with the

Reformation we look back To men like Luther and Calvin Who had obviously Split away from the

Roman Catholic Church And the Anglican Church Did split from the

Catholic Church at least as far as I understand So this is where I want you to correct me Historically what makes you

Feel like you're more tied to the Historical Church as an Anglican than you would be As maybe another

Protestant Sure yeah great question So there's a lot of Misinformation About where Anglicanism begins

Everybody wants to start it with King Henry VIII Particularly Catholics But I think an honest

Catholic And you know Trent Horn for example So I got to meet him recently

Because I did a two on two debate With him on justification Him and Akin debated myself and Lutheran So we had a fun debate

And he's actually coming on my program In September to talk about Anglicanism And Catholicism You take the position of Sola Fide I'm assuming

Yeah I would Articulate it Slightly different Than some

Of the more Presbyterian or views Of that nature I think sacraments

Are important I actually Put a triangle up In the debate on my slide

Showing that there's justification Before God which is Sola Fide There's justification

Before others And there's justification before ourselves And I think that's where Sacraments come into play and so forth

And Horn was slightly impressed With The dynamic I took on the bottom end

Of the triangle but ultimately They tried to say they agreed with us on Sola Fide based on Even Trent, the

Council of Trent Which Yes They do but then they Struggle with that second leg

That I had on my graph because They make it equal To Fide as is

We believe that Sola Fide Will lead to Not only justification before God It will lead to justification before your own self

And before others and that's what we see In James but We had a good debate and Again he emailed me

We dialogued and he's coming On my show and then he said When his studio's done he wants me to come out and do

A show with him on why I came to Anglicanism But the Question I think

Please send me A link when we get finished To that debate if it's available Is it available?

It is available yeah It's It's actually on Trent Horn's channel

He actually edited it And He The funny thing is

Jimmy Akin love him to death but Boy every debate On one subject ends up on Purgatory or Something and it's like wait

I'm sitting there Messaging the moderator Like step in and do something

Like why are we on purgatory right now This debate is on is faith alone What saves a man

Like next thing you know we're on purgatory And it was so frustrating because Akin wanted to Hog the mic and I told the

Moderator midway through I was like okay from now On I'm going to interrupt the man Like this is not going to happen

And two on twos are very difficult because We split it into it was Samuel versus Akin me

Versus Trent all in one debate But we could talk to the other person's Side and so it

Kind of got awkward at the beginning it's like Wait do I speak here or do I just let Samuel Answer that so I didn't really speak up Until the midway and then when

Horn and I were able to engage we kind of caught on To the format I didn't like the format I was against it from day one but they

Were that's what Trent and Jimmy wanted so we We did what the

Catholics want Because they're the older church but The thing is

To your question They'll hold you to that That means we're best

Bless us But the question about Anglicanism and kind of the myth

Is that it began with King Henry VIII when it Had not The Sea of Canterbury goes back much further than that The Sea of Canterbury goes

Back to 597 to 601 With a man by the name of Augustine not Augustine of Hippo Augustine of Canterbury different He was an

Italian Sent by Pope Gregory the Great To the

British Isles Particularly to the Anglo -Saxons To evangelize Now what's interesting

I actually have the book here with me The Ecclesiastical History of the

English People I don't know if your Camera can see that By the most venerable

Bede He wrote Particularly about the time of The churches that were in the island of The British Isles although Bede was in the 7th and 8th century

So I think he was born in the Late 670s And died in the 700s he's a historian

Writing about the churches and he tells Stories of the churches that were There in England all the way to the

Time of his life and What you actually find is that there were Always churches on the

British Isles There were always churches there you had John's Churches particularly in the Celtic churches

There's still Places you can go Visit today in England and see

Where Celtic Christianity Was practiced in the 2nd and 3rd century You can also

So this is the unique thing about Anglicanism because What Bede demonstrates

In his history when Pope Gregory the Great believed

That there needed To be unity on the British Isles he knew that the southern

Because Rome pulled out of the southern Part of England and Actually sent

Their troops out Because the Anglo -Saxons took over The Anglo -Saxons were

Split into the bottom portion Of the British Isles and There's a story

In Bede's history where When he was Still a monk there was a slave

Brought and he had blue eyes And blonde hair And to The future

Pope he was Just blown away by the beauty Of the skin and the hair color And like this is a beautiful person

Like where did he come from And he said oh they're amongst the Angles And he said are there any more

Like these yeah there's a whole island Full of them you know and So he said There's a joke he said

Angles more like angels You know kind of situation And so he once he became

Pope his best buddy Augustine He was like I want

He always had wanted to send Missionaries to the southern British Isles So he sends Augustine with 50

Other missionary monks They go to the British Isles They get there and they find out

Christianity is already even amongst the Anglo -Saxons the Anglo -Saxon king's wife Was a Christian and he actually

Permitted churches and then Augustine actually writes back To the Pope and says

It's not as bad as you thought These people are actually civilized actually have Churches and so he starts

Investigating England and it turns Out there's been churches practicing All through the time

And then they found John's Liturgy there because it became A huge debate in the

British Isles When do we celebrate Easter even today The East and the West can't agree on when Easter is It was a huge ordeal

In England they The Pope and Augustine wanted to get All these churches on the same page

Because in parts of England You have stories that Joseph of Arimathea had been there

In fact they claim they know where the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea is Aristarchus who was with Paul In the end of the book of Romans They claim they have his tomb also there

In England northern I think it's northern England So they have Paul Sent missionaries to that region

And then John Sent missionaries that went West and then

Into the eastern part of The British Isles and then in Ireland In the Celtic churches and again

There's evidence of Celtic churches In the second century out there So you kind of have

Pauline liturgy You have Johanan Liturgy you have

Petrine Liturgy and What we find is that even in 601 when

Augustine became the first Ever Archbishop of Canterbury He wasn't creating a church

He was there unifying A church and you see that in the language From the Pope He wasn't looking to Bring in new

Christians That never existed on the island He was bringing in Leaders from Rome to unite

The dispersed churches With different liturgies And it took time Augustine didn't get to see it in his

Lifetime his successors were able to Accomplish that unity What was broken in the Reformation Was that the church of England from the first time

Since Augustine of Canterbury In 601 actually Broke communion with Rome That was reunited in 601

And it's not the first time They had issues and this is one of the Things that I came to realize There were pre -reformations

Far before the reformation in England King Alfred for example

Hated that Rome wanted to insert Latin liturgy On nations that didn't know

Latin And he was the first one to Defy the Pope and start Doing liturgy in the churches in English He was like We speak

English we don't speak Latin So he pushed back and he had his own Little mini reformation

Moments against the Papacy and against Rome and said We're a free church we don't need your permission

We're in communion with you But you don't tell us what to do And we don't want Latin So he actually took all the colleges

And everything and took the Latin out And started putting English in So there's a deep history that goes way back

What year was that? When was King Alfred? Oh boy 13th

I'll have to look that up It's 12th, 13th century I believe That's okay It would have been after The Great Schism with The East and all those things

So it's still Second millennium church Excuse me, I am wrong it was before that He was in the 9th century

Oh okay, alright So really early So So Rome As you said discovers

That there are churches in England And who Establishes the

Archbishop You said between The I think you said 597 to 601 601

It was Pope Gregory So Pope Gregory establishes

The Archbishop As a bishop Then representing

Rome Would that be correct to say? Representing the communion With Peter's churches

And John's And Paul's churches that were there To be a unified communion So they became a part of a communion

With Rome With their own personalized Representative And so the

Archbishop is a representative Of that communion And so He went over to Gaul He was sent over to France He was, by the way, the churches in England Did not accept him

At first Because the Pope's coming over and saying Yep, everybody needs, here's your

Archbishop They're like, no, he's not A lot of the Johannine churches No, he didn't

Well, the biggest thing is The biggest mistake that Rome made Is they made the date of Easter I mean, it was

King James Only -ism kind of stuff I mean, we've got to have everybody Celebrating Easter on the same day

And some of the bishops That were in the British Isles Were just like, why? No, we believe the tradition

Was the tradition given back to John And it became a Who's the better apostle? Who got the information?

Is it John or is it Peter? And the debate still goes on today So it was a massive thing

It took years to actually bring Unity Into this subject

On Easter But the Archbishop of Canterbury Became the representative

Of the communion between the churches Of England and Rome And it is an individual

Provenance So it is its own provenance It is not Rome ruling

In England It is the co Remember We've got to remember this

And even John Calvin said this about Pope Gregory The Great He was the last great pope

Because they didn't see the papacy back then The way the papacy is today

The papacy was not Rome's standard And I know that every

Catholic that's listening to this Is probably going to throw something at their screen But even other popes had admitted

Something changed in the papacy After the schism And at this time

Pope Gregory was not a dominating U -list into Rome Situation Now he inserted himself

His goal was to be a To unite the apostles' churches

That was his goal To unite the apostles' churches He was a gentleman You can read and be the correspondence

Back and forth between Augustine And Gregory And Gregory's wisdom

On how to deal with disagreement Should be used in every training manual For church practice and pastoring

It's phenomenal Even Calvin praised the man So we have to remember

That they didn't see themselves at that time In Rome as we dominate We are in control of all the churches

We are in communion With all the churches And they saw the sea of Peter As a sea of honor

The sea of Rome was an honored sea That this is Peter And his Apostleship down through his

Successors and they gave Precedence to a first amongst equals So an archbishop in another land

Is not Lesser than the pope He is a representative of that Ecumenical Communion of the

Saints and he is the delegate there Leading the church in England to keep communion with all

The other churches So Eastern Orthodoxy Would see the

Apostolic succession Going down through their Bishops and Rome Would see apostolic succession going

Specifically through the papacy They would say the pope sits on Peter's seat

Where is apostolic succession With the Anglican Church? Where do you

How do you trace that Back? And I want to just Mention this

Because it's on my mind I know that you come from the Independent Baptist Church and there's a belief

You're laughing because you know where I'm going There's a belief among some Independent Baptists that The Baptist Church Is the true church and that there is a

Trail of blood which exists Outside of the mainline apostolic church Or whatever you want to call it

That that is the true church Is are Anglicans claiming a similar

Line and I'm not comparing it Necessarily to the trail of blood I'm just saying Giving somewhat of a tangential

Connection here. Are you saying We go back to the apostles and this Is how? Yeah so By the way

I did a three part series on the trail Of blood on my podcast if anybody wants to Check those out. I talk about the myth

Of the trail of blood. I think I'm one of the few People that actually goes through And deconstructs every

Single group on that list. So Send me that link too. I'm going to put all the links Of these things you're mentioning in the description

Because I think people should listen to these things Especially you know the you and Trent Horn The debate because I think

Sola Fide is a hugely important thing and that as well I I had Thomas Ross on my program A year and a half ago and he

He believes in the trail of blood and Um, we didn't get we didn't get a chance to get Into it because we were talking about king james only ism

But it's fruit of the same tree I think they make some of the Same faulty arguments and The thing is they're trying what

Always intrigued me about the trail of blood And the connection of succession is that The baptist

Want to be significant Because they see the value of chain of Custody from apostles to their

Current practice. So Even john Smith one of the

Historians places one of the First ever baptists when he Split from the church of england

In the early 17th century He After starting a whole new movement

That became general Baptists he realized Succession was important and most

People don't realize this. It's quite fascinating John smith ended up going to the Mennonites to seek succession

Because Even after practicing kind of a rogue Group creating the general baptist

Which I always joke are the lesser Of the two I like the particular Baptist a lot better but when you look

And i'm sure you would agree with that We consider ourselves particular Baptists so the general

The general baptists were kind of Fluctuating back and forth and even john Smith realized that Succession was necessary and he sought

Communion through the mennonites And if you go back and actually find It they granted him

Access to their fellowship, but he Had already died and so he was only Given access after death not before Um He even realized succession was important So this is interesting

How everybody wants to have succession The difference that we have to consider Is what tertullian of Uh pretty much he came

Down from rome he went to the north african churches And defended christianity And he demonstrated that if you're

Going to be a church from the apostles there's going To be a record a record Is both of a the text that You use and be

Uh the bishops Succession lines from hand on head And you should be able to trace both

Name records as well as the text That continue with them which is why all The churches were using the same new testament

Text because the bishops Were all coming back from the Same originated line

Peter james etc So when you look at anglicanism Um and I have a whole list of it i can actually show

You the succession line of even the acna Archbishops Um going back to saint peter

Now the cool thing is With anglicanism Is they're not limited

To peter's succession We have a trifold succession connection Uh we are connected

Through peter and paul are typically Put together through rome Um and then you have the

Johanan uh connection As well and even at one Point the delegates from jerusalem

Sent a bishop to England and sent one of theirs To be a part of the succession line

Of the sea and so you even Have james's succession line In in anglicanism so anglicanism

Is kind of unique and this is actually What's really cool because you see Even orthodox eastern orthodox

Practices in anglican churches For example uh the philioquia Is a big debate uh between the east

And the west do we put And the sun in the Creed or not well the

East would never do it and the west would Always do it the anglicans actually Have a choice you can choose to do

It or not to do it you have the choice There's a lot of actually shout outs To the orthodox that is still

Integrated into anglicanism because The east and the west anglicanism Is made up of kind of both

Even though their friendship has long Been with the west And their communion is typically based on That connection there's a lot of Orthodox practice that's still

Happening in anglicanism so they're kind Of a a breed between east And west uh because of their location

And their history So i would say that yeah we Can actually trace our succession line

Obviously augustine of canterbury Himself was sent and and Sanctioned in gall by Pope gregory to be of the

Sea but you can even proceed Before that so if if Gregory puts a person there

You could say there were other bishops there but There's no traceable line for them even though there Was apostles churches so the traceable

Line now starts with augustine And if it starts with augustine Now you're a part of the communion

Of the succession that goes back to peter And paul so instantly we have That connection and so yeah an anglican

And i as tertullian says You need your papers i i carry A digital copy and a physical

Copy with me to demonstrate That the anglican church that I'm a part of is

Connected back to the apostolic Roots and we have every single name Of bishops between peter

And paul and john and james To the archbishop of the acna Which is bishop now bishop

Steve wood who i just had a Wonderful lunch with a month and a half ago Down in charleston right before he

Got elected nobody knew he was going to get elected Archbishop he's a wonderful man he's the He was a bishop over the diocese i'm a part

Of um i've met with him twice Had lunch with him a couple weeks Later he's getting elected off to the archbishopric

So uh Did you know that was coming? No no he was not

In my top five guesses Um a couple priests Were suspicious he'd be in the top three

But i think they were slightly surprised Um he got it I don't know if he was surprised

Um but he's such a Humble guy so laid back And if he

Knew about it he would have never said anything Or if he knew it was a possibility He had never said anything he just He just keeps going about his business

And um so we had a wonderful lunch And we had a wonderful conversation Talking about because i've obviously been

Ordained in the baptist so they're they're I'm doing ordination through anglicanism Now so i'm i'm actually an

Ordinate in the diocese So That'll help with the apologetic side too

Um so i'm in that process And he was Pretty much sanctioning and Saying hey i'm behind it i'm behind the

Ordination and also behind the podcast That i do so it was a big deal It was a big deal to me with him for him to become

The archbishop and a few weeks after that just Made it even bigger But i can take you from bishop

Steve wood back to peter and show You every bishop in between and So yeah anglicans have succession

Now the issue is But but before you go further because i have To ask that that seems

Seems hard To believe i'm certainly not calling into question Your your truthfulness it seems Hard to believe that you can know for sure

That that line is it has not been corrupted Or or misrepresented Especially when we think about like the roman

Line of popes they they Make the same claim we can go back to peter And that our our this

This demonstrates the fidelity of our Of our leaders that he has he has This unbroken line and yet There's questions about even

You know uh the avignon papacy And things like that where there were questions about who is The pope so you're saying there's no

Breaks in the line there's and again i'm not trying To debate you i'm just these are questions That i know are coming into my mind and i'm sure would be in Other people's mind you're saying it's absolutely

Unbroken it's no there's nobody whose hand went On somebody that we don't know about Yeah because uh this is

A good question it's a fantastic question by the way Um there's a couple things to Keep in mind here when

A bishop was ordained He was ordained with Outside bishops who had to come in And also witness it

Usually three so It wasn't just let's just say my Nan you know john smith over here and You know paul jones i'm making these names

Up um I'm the sea i'm Over the sea of canterbury and You know paul jones over here

I'm Blessing him and transferring The office over to this

Individual and that was done like In a dark room where nobody could see it That's not how

It would work in fact they would typically bring In outside delegates Of other bishops and sometimes

Rome would even help with this Especially in canterbury They would send a delegate from rome as a witness

And they would actually bring somebody else in From another location to witness within A college of bishops

So typically In the catholic city is the magisterium Uh anglicans have the

Council uh the College of bishops in their council So When somebody was placed

Into the archbishopric It wasn't a single Hand on head There was that individual transferring

Hand to head but there were Other witnessing bishops that were not From the area who were also

Required to be there and we even See evidence of this When augustine and others were

Ordained to the bishopric even bead Reports the difference uh Individuals that were there

So in the record keeping it's not Just simply a name after name It was a name within The witness of names because they

Kind of followed the two or three witness Um practice Or if you would the application of that And they did not usually use

Inside bishops to be those witnesses They would bring delegates in from another Um diocese

Or synod or somewhere to to aid Sometimes they would bring people in from antioch North africa to Actually do this because it was a huge Deal um so i would

Say it's unbroken now if you're talking About so there's two types there's two so the Second part of this there's two sides

To succession there's hands on Head and then there's the bible In the heart And the issue is

That you can have hand on head Succession but if the word of God is not in that person's

Heart and they're not practicing and living it Is it really true succession It may be physical succession

But it doesn't have the spiritual Deposit succession to it and There have been evil leaders

In every movement i don't Care if you're catholic orthodox The the the sea of Canterbury today is corrupt

Justin Welby Is our heretic uh The the anglican the church of england

He has opened the doors To bless Same -sex unions

Um he has made a circus Of the Canterbury uh

Cathedral and has allowed Islamic faiths to come in And partner and have

So we reject The authority of The sea of canterbury today because We believe it is heretical

Um and the good thing And then so you understand i don't know if you know this But the acna to keep its succession

Had to go to africa To continue succession because The african bishops still hold the

Succession and because the acna Split with the episcopal church over The same issue with the

Um church of england Could not receive Legitimate bishops without Going through the episcopal or england which they would

Never offer breaking from them so They had to go to the african bishops In rwanda and in kenya

To receive actual apostolic Succession for the united states And that's why there's a partnership there

With gafcon So With that and again This is kind of going in a weird direction

Because i wanted to ask you doctrinal questions And i still may we're getting Getting close to an hour mark here and i don't want to Take too much of your time but i have

A thousand questions coming into my mind For instance you know the acna Is created Not out of whole cloth but it is created as A new movement within england

Didn't exist prior to You know what 20 years ago how long has it been Yeah it's been right right around 20 years

That's right okay so the acna Comes out of Out of the

The african bishops as you just mentioned But they're saying okay but we Have succession here and this is where we're getting

Our succession from are you really then Still anglican because are they anglican Or are they african are you the african

Church of north america now or are you And again i'm not trying to make it Too much of a joke so so the

Communion of anglicanism is far Spread there's a lot of anglicans in australia New zealand uh even in malaysia

One of the biggest churches in malaysia Where we help start a church uh one of the biggest Churches in anglican church so the anglican

Communion is about 80 million But did that exist prior To the divide with rome or Would those churches have been considered roman churches

Prior to that well If you ask rome they're considered roman Churches because they claim everything but If you ask anybody else those churches

Were planted from the church of england Now they want to take credit for it Because they're in communion for it but who

Started these churches missionaries went to africa Missionaries sent to australia New zealand etc it was the church

Of england that was commissioning and Authorizing these mission groups to Go and it's because Of these mission groups going that these churches

Were started and new bishops Were formed from the church of england Of course rome had a play

In that because they were like i said When you would ordain archbishops Over these areas they would bring

Delegates from rome when they were in africa I'm pretty sure they actually Brought some north african bishops that were already

In existence down into these other Regions like i know the ethiopic Tradition back to matthew

Was involved etc so There's multiple aspects where other Residing bishops would come in and help

Create Church cultures with a leader So even

Though those churches are in africa Their succession is still Connected back to the church of england

Which goes back to its roots That we just went down The canterbury trail with so There's still

I'm sorry would they have identified Themselves prior to The divide with rome would they have

Would the church have identified itself as The church of england yeah Yep they would call themselves anglicans or In the case of africa they

Would have called themselves North african anglicans Or something of the sort because Anglicans i wouldn't just call

Themselves catholic they would Use the word catholic in the sense

Of universal they wouldn't have used The word roman catholic because they were not roman Because they were not practicing

The liturgy the same way Again there's similarities in our liturgies But there was always distinction

To england's liturgy Has always been different from rome there's Things in it that are different from rome so What liturgy you use kind of Defines your territory

We had communion with rome With the pope though Any anglican that Any anglican that Sees the pope as A first amongst equals

Is fine with it in fact there's negotiations Going on right now with the potentiality Of that happening again for the first time in 400 years

If the pope is what the pope Was i don't know of any anglican that's Opposed to it if he is what he

Is today that's the issue We have with the pope that he has become Something that he never was and So that's been going on for a very very very

Long time that was being pushed Back on like i was saying with king alfred That was being pushed on by other

Kings and then king henry was just The one that severed the Whole thing um so king

Henry the eighth obviously wanted an annulment didn't Get it there was way more to it than The catholics wanted like it wasn't just Simply he didn't get his way and then he threw a tantrum

That's he Continued to try to Keep in communion

With rome uh he would write Letters back and forth to the pope the pope would write Back to him they had a cordial relationship

It wasn't It wasn't as dramatic as everybody wants it To be but it was a big deal

I don't want to downplay the big Deal that it was but these Churches that were started from england would have

Associated their mother church from england not From rome they would say they're catholic Universal they would not say

We're roman christians they would say That we were they would say they're african Christians that are englican

And the reason they would say that is because that's Teaching the the relationship they Have to mother church mother church was

The church of england they were always seen As the mother church rome Being again a communion

With that mother church They never saw each other as rome England african churches

It was rome England african churches in a straight Line not a we're over Everybody uh and this is

The mistake that well be as recently made Even with the african bishops Because they rejected his authority over This same -sex union

Blessing and well We wrote a letter to them pretty much demanding That they get over themselves

And the african bishops were about and said We're we're not under your Jurisdiction and and england no longer

Rules these lands because there was a time When england was actually ruling over Portions of africa and they

Pretty much said we're not under your providence both Spiritually and governmental Anymore like we don't need to answer

To you uh as to why Keep in mind out of 80 million Anglicans over 65

Million of them are conservative and have Rejected the leadership Of archbishop well be and have rejected

The episcopal church And other liberal groups uh that Are still with me because they're a minority

The methodists uh You know for a long time were Were kept out of the

The far reaches of Uh of That type of ungodly

Ideology because of the african Methodists and it sounds like the same situation With the anglicans the african anglicans

Are unwilling to go where the Where the um The anglican church has gone absolutely

And fun fact john and Charles wesley died anglican not Methodist um it's funny they

Get credited for starting this whole movement But they never moved Themselves and their ordinations from The anglican church they died anglican

Ministers um so Fun fact for the methodists come back to mama church Anyway go ahead next

Question uh well You said also earlier that the first baptist Had been an anglican so i

Guess you'd call everybody back to mama church Huh well they left They left the church of england and again

This is this is the issue that Even today if you read Some of the liturgy today in our in our

Prayer book There's prayers of repentance for the Church in the past england

Became the problem with England just like in rome It became a church state

So Your baptism As a member of the

Church of england was also Your Citizenship so There's a lot of connection here in Parents The original people that pushed away from Infant baptism wasn't a theological

Reason necessarily At first it was it was an Issue of you're forcing

Our children to be something that we want Them to make their own decisions for and there Was more to it than a theological tie

It was it was a governmental tie And a theological tie so There's a lot of issues

That came into play there and England really did become A hierarchical set of Jerks and there's a

Lot of evil they did There's a lot of unnecessary murder Killing War that took

Place in the church of england and again You know even if you go Through the prayer book today and usually

It's prayed quite often that God would forgive The sins of our past As a church

And so You know anglicans are the most repentant People i've ever been around They repent for sins they didn't do

Their ancestry Lines did and their Church lines did four or five hundred

Years ago so there's a lot of evil That happened in rome there's a lot of evil that Happened in england There's still evil happening there today

But christ has always sustained a Remnant of Today that remnant is not a remnant

That the liberals are a remnant but God has always sustained his True leaders and his true

Bishops and there's always been A line where somebody stood up and Tried to defend the truth

And that's where the puritans kind of came in They're like okay let's pull it back here Like you guys are getting a little bit

Obnoxious and out of line and traditional Outside of scripture So the puritans were probably the best thing that ever happened

To the church of england and made them rethink Some of their polity Which many of them went on and Started particular baptist

Ideas and and congregationalists And so we see a lot of these Things happen as a

Response to the abuse of england That's why the pilgrims came here you know And that's what i was going to say

You know you being a Part of the acna which is a Divide from the anglican

Church It Itself because of the Need for reform aren't

You in that sense giving A tacit approval To the reformation and saying what happened

In the reformation was actually A right thing sure and To be clear we're not the acna

Is not apart from the anglican communion We've removed ourselves from the Leadership of the archbishop of Canterbury we are still in The anglican communion

Um Universally we are in the same communion We've just rejected the leadership

Would they see you that way would they Say you're you're our you're part Of us well be would

Say that we are sectarian because We broke from his leadership The problem is he's got to say that About 65 million anglicans

Yeah but the same thing could be Said and again i'm not trying to debate I'm just trying to in my

Mind wrap my head around this because Lutherans and and And calvinists would say

We never divided from the catholic Church we divided from the false teaching That was happening and but we're still catholic

We're still part of the universal church Therefore we still have apostolic Succession therefore we still have

This line that takes us back to the early church We still are a genuine church Because We have maintained the faith

Once we're all delivered to the saints Even though we're no longer part of this Corrupt oversight

Which has become Far too corrupt for us to be able to support And i think i think for the last 500 years

Rome has demonstrated itself to be correct So that goes back to the point of succession Is two things it's not just a hand on head

It's a scripture in heart And scripture practiced orthodoxy And so Any church

That has the the two Qualities those two things Is a succession church is

An apostolic church is a true church The problem with some of the Reformation and by the way some of the lutherans

Still have succession In fact there's lutherans in malaysia That have succession the gentleman

I was telling you about samuel his great grandfather Brought lutheranism to the country Malaysia as a

Succession leader In lutheran and so Succession Lutherans are in malaysia so they

Still have some succession The problem that happened Later and by the way calvin desired

The episcopate We see places where calvin Was actually writing desiring

To have the episcopate and Was trying to strategize On how to do it he died before He was able to pull it off in Geneva but i think

If calvin would have lived another 10 years It wouldn't shock me if The episcopacy came back to Geneva but it would have been a reuniting

Of the office by hand on head And also the Doctrine so we would say that The 65 million anglicans that are under Succession bishops right now are the true

Anglicans because we are faithful To both the hands on head succession But also the doctrine of orthodoxy

And that wellbe has left Orthodoxy and that is why these other Bishops have called wellbe to repentance

He has left orthodoxy and His commitment to the Canons and covenants of The anglican faith by blessing

Same -sex unions he has broken Canon by doing therefore he is Illegitimate he's calling us illegitimate

But we're still this the rest Of the bishops are still hands on head Whether it's all the

Gafcon churches The global south all That all these african churches

The ones in australia new zealand The acna the rec We all split from the

Episcopals and them And they're The ones that actually broke canon law They're the ones that actually went against The orthodox faith that was in our canons

So they may have Hand on head but they don't have Proper orthodox practices

We have both so Yeah there's an inside debate about Who's legit but at the end of the

Day the evidence points to who is Practicing what the church has always put in Its canons they're not they're changing

The canons they're bringing in Woke ideas and new Concepts that the church has never

Blessed same -sex unions with And left Orthodox practice by Tampering and patronizing

Islamic faith And hindu faith and letting them into the Church and creating some sort of Christian something with them

It's it's against orthodoxy It's against practices against canon law So they're they're the

True sectarians and it Be if you're asking me I know that sounds Harsh there's good

Christians Still fighting for the church Of england they're still orthodox People in the church of england

Fighting for reform The one of the things that Somebody joked about recently with anglicans

Is that we're always reforming Always we were Reforming before the reformation

We were reforming in the reformation Keep in mind a lot of The anglicans went to calvin

And geneva for refuge and to Germany with luther's people When bloody mary went nuts

And started trying to make England catholic again She started killing

Its bishops and A lot of the priests fled England and calvin gladly

This is why i think calvin was influenced With the idea of succession Anglicans show up to geneva needing

Refuge he takes him in They get calvinized And he starts getting influenced by the episcopate

Episcopacy And so why are a lot Of anglicans calvinist because A lot of the leaders of england

During the time of bloody mary Ran to geneva and Learned the doctrine of the reformation

From calvin and from Luther that's why there's a lot of lutheran Type anglicans and a lot of calvinists

In anglicanism because during that time They sought refuge From the reformers and they

They agreed with the reformation And after bloody mary did that they definitely Agreed with the reformation

I want to make An analogy that may Upset some people so Well i hope it

Doesn't upset you we've had a nice Conversation so far do you Do any martial arts do you

Have any martial arts background ever do It's just basketball football and baseball Okay i've been

I've been in karate for 30 years I've taught i've got a fifth degree Black belt in japanese shodokan and have

Been in that for a very long time and We even have a karate program at our church It's just something that we

Do a lot of churches have baseball or Basketball we have a karate program And one of the

Things that everyone wants to claim in the Karate world is everybody wants To claim that they have the

They they they're the ones that go Back to the original you know people Who invented this they're the guys and And there's this

Sort of joke Is the guys who you know well we Have the we're we're the originals

Because our kata is In katas the forms it's sort of like In a sense liturgy this is the ours

Is right and everybody else is wrong And what you find is You find everybody's

Finding some way to bring themselves Back to the original that was the point i was making Earlier about me yes i was ordained

By someone who was ordained by someone else We can probably find a point where Whoever ordained three or four generations

Back maybe five generations back was part Of this line that you're talking about And i can put myself in the same line you're in I mean this is where i think the

The problem that i have with The succession claim Is is the claim of That you know i'm carrying these papers

With me that say i'm in this line therefore i'm Legit and you're not and that's i'm not I don't i don't think that's what you're saying but i think that's

What some are saying that that the legitimacy Of my my ministry Is based upon Being a part of this line

Does that make sense Yeah it does and you know for Us you know one of the things that Anglicans are big on when

It comes to what you're saying like looking at Other ministries which Again might be called sectarian

Or something like that but We believe That god is not bound

In the sacraments so Catholics are a little Different than us on this so Everything has to be done your

Validity is based on Their orders Their sacraments We believe that sacraments

Is the guarantee of god's Presence and power To his people

And so when you have The proper orthodoxy and Succession there it's more of This is the promise

Of god for his church When we look at other churches on the outside Say yourself or others

What we say is that When you guys are issuing The eucharist or Whatever you call it communion lord's supper

We called it communion lord's supper when i was Baptist There's actually a push to do this more

I have a lot of reformed baptists Jeremiah Nordier and others they're big Formed baptists they do eucharist every week

And they call it eucharist they do creed They do things like that We do the lord's supper every week

And we use the word eucharist but we It's not part of our Contemporary or excuse me

Our common parlance is to Not necessarily use the word eucharist We explain it we talk about what the word means

And have no issue with it It's just like using The term

Mother of god for mary we don't have a Problem with it we understand what it means but in General it confuses people if they tie it

To some form of maryology from rome So it's a It's a parlance issue

We call it buzzwords but You know all of a sudden Wait y 'all are catholic

Exactly So We when we see

Like your church doing something Like that we have No right to put god in a

Box and say god's not Meeting with his people So I've always said it this way

That god is not bound by the sacraments But he is bountiful within him And so God Can do what he wants and When we look at scripture

There is a Intentional drive For the god of scripture to Meet with his people

And meet with his people Who may not do things Exactly the way they

Should have We see god in his mercy meeting with People we see god showing up for his

People who didn't deserve it That's what the sacraments are they're acts of Grace to begin with So when you're serving the eucharist

We as anglicans Would never say or shouldn't Oh keith foskey

You know god's not meeting With his people when they're doing that that's not Our place to say that because we just put god

In some boxes if we control him within Our system and we believe god Is bigger than the system we believe

God is bigger than the sacraments And so we Encourage Churches like your own to think deeply

About sacraments think deeply about eucharist And when you Say things like we do it every week that excites

Me it doesn't make me go Boo you're doing it all wrong fix it You know it excites

Me that that you see the value in It because when i was a baptist and then Admittingly as a pastor

We did eucharist like four times a year Tops Um I was in with i had a group of independent

Baptists on a couple months ago and one Guy said we do it once a year and i don't Remember the last time we did it

I just Did not make sense to me So in that situation it's

Easy to say hey man You're probably not practicing New testament here like this This is a little bit serious

Like that's a serious thing to me but to Hear that people like yourself or Jeremiah norty or others

Practicing that Weekly it encourages Me as an anglican to see that So no

I'm not in the business of You know coming in and doing This to everybody that's not my job

I'm not god i'm not the holy spirit and if God wants to meet with his people and about this Church outside of Succession and all this other stuff

He has every right to do it he wants to meet With his people you guys have the right faith Um baptists

Have the right faith lutherans Have many of the lutherans Have right faith And baptists aren't all right either there's

A lot i know There are even Church there's some yeah it's orthodox

In in it's it the issues between Us are more orthopraxy than orthodoxy Sure Well i appreciate you saying that and that's

Encouraging to hear i do Want to um i want to Ask you some sort of lightning round Questions because we have we're

Now at 100 or right An hour and 15 minutes and um For those who are staying with us

Because i know sometimes people start a podcast And don't finish it which is terrible for the Algorithm i want them to finish the show

Uh i i'd like for them To uh to hear Some and these are going to Be not necessarily easy

Questions but they're doctrinal and i Understand that within anglicanism there Won't always be a

Unifying voice On some of these it might be that well Some anglicans see that this way some

See it this way i'm more concerned With you personally And you can say if you want to Preface by saying well anglicans

Differ but i believe this That's fine and and um because I'm just curious you as a person where you stand

Because i know where you were as an independent Baptist and as a southern baptist i graduated From southern baptist seminary so i

Understand at least the doctrines that you were Weaned on uh or Weaned is a terrible way of saying maybe

The those in which you were Trained on yes uh So uh let's

Go let's start down the line Obviously you believe in infant baptism i i Heard your podcast where you talked about you

Uh you know that was one of the things that Seeing that in the early church But would you say that infant baptism

Is uh is an act of regeneration Or is it uh simply A covenantal baptism as seen in the

Presbyterian church My perspective and again there's Latitude here i think the

I think it's closer to my View is closer to presbyterianism Um because Anglicans don't believe just because a baby is

Baptized that baby is saved catholics Do we don't We believe in apostasy

We believe they reject the Act of grace is a act of Grace and a call of god to bring

That child to faith And that they can walk away from that And there's warnings all through the new testament

For people in that very predicament Do you believe that a person Who is legitimately

Regenerated uh Can't ever walk away completely Do you believe or do you have A hold to a view of eternal security

No i i believe that Um true saving faith Will persevere uh

This is actually where some of the debate went with Trent horn and and jimmy And that's why we ended up on Purgatory somehow but uh i

Believe that true saving faith Will persevere to the End um i

Think augustine taught that And he's one of the early church fathers Represents roman teaching in africa

But um i i do Believe in perseverance okay Uh when it comes to The participation in the lord's supper

Uh obviously you refer to it as The eucharist um do you Do you hold to a

Transubstantiation view do you hold to A sacramental presence view perhaps A spiritual presence like it's held in calvinism

Or right what would be your Particular position on that so this Is where anglicans are a lot more like the eastern

Church uh we reject Transubstantiation although there's some anglo Catholics that don't uh some anglo

Catholics accept transubstantiation I think that Transubstantiation is

Too nuanced um You know you're talking about Aquinas terminology a lot of Philosophical influence from Aristotelian ideas yeah

Substance and accidents things like that I think it's unnecessary um We believe that the elements

Through special means of grace Become the body and blood as Anglicans were similar to the orthodox

We just we leave it to mystery and we don't Explain it um we don't Call it transubstantiation

We don't think that's necessary Um we're Closer that's where we're closer to our origin

To the eastern church we would Be a lot closer to them In your church do you practice

Closed or open communion For instance what if if I were to visit your church would

I be Welcome to the table yeah As long as you affirm the creed The Nicene creed

Which I think you would and you're baptized In the name of the father son and holy spirit Yep So I wouldn't have to I wouldn't have to affirm

Your understanding of the table To participate in the table Nope that was the

Interesting answer the Lutherans told me I was not welcome So now there might be

Some priests I want to preface this to you I don't want to Speak for all Anglicans there might be some priests that are Stricter on this you specifically asked about the church

Yeah I meant so Specifically in the churches that are around here In the same diocese

Um you can even Differ with us on like baptism And things like that the key is

Uh your baptism Is the name the father son and holy spirit You're baptized in the trinitarian god

And you affirm the faith as Declared in the Nicene creed If someone were to come to you

And say that they had made A profession of faith and they desired baptism And they wanted to be

Baptized by immersion would you Allow for that or would you Reject that or would you try to Teach them out of that So the

Anglican prayer book Actually suggests Immersion It's interesting how many

I think as does the didache You mentioned So the didache

I'm kind of I'm a didache Guy so Me too I actually love the document So I enjoy

What's it you know Immersion in Living water and if not then you can do

Still water and cold rather than You know I don't think You know I've always thought this was funny

About a baptist how adamant They are about the mode of baptism but they don't believe Anything spiritual is happening in baptism

But yet they're adamant about the mode Um but when it comes To the mode of baptism

I don't Think it's as important Um as it is

Necessitated because it is The water and the word Coming together in that moment that Is doing something of grace and So whether it's fully

Submerged my personal Preference my personal preference Is immersion when my

Kids were baptized now my kids were old enough When I came to Anglicanism Um you know my son's 11 my daughter's

Eight you know they've Made their own profession so this was A little bit easier for me Um because they were already at the age

Where they understood the gospel and they'd already been Taught the gospel their whole lives And they affirmed their

They were able to even in their Baptisms um Recant the world of flesh and the devil

They were able to do the creed on their own I didn't have to speak for them they were able to Speak for their own faith and When they were baptized

I was adamant That it would be done by immersion Um it is my preferred

Method if I was in a situation Where I couldn't do that I don't think the person is less baptized

If I poured in the name of the father Son and holy spirit but my preferred Method is is immersion

And actually that's how it reads in the prayer book That's interesting yeah Um when

When you hear the term Via media this is a term That's often applied to Anglicanism Uh I have heard it

Said that via media means That it is a medial Way between Protestantism and Catholics but I've also heard

It's a medial way between Calvinism and Lutheranism I've heard Different explanations of that So how do you

Use the term do you think it's helpful And do you think it's uh how do you Interpret it so I Use the term for people that are coming

Into Anglicanism the middle way Um and Remember it was Elizabeth That brought this middle way

In after Mary Butchered the clergy And You had again

Now you have people coming back from Geneva Once Mary died people started Coming back um

And you now have Reformed Anglicans and then you still

Had people in the church of England that were loyal to Rome And so you had a great schism even in England that Elizabeth was

Left to clean up So What's said the middle way

She created the middle way which Is why a lot of Anglicans will say We're reformed Catholics That's what they'll say we're reformed

Catholics Uh I I think that's accurate

Enough to say I think You can say that and still be accurate I don't know if it's fully genuine

Um I know that Anglicans like to believe that We are the epitome of what Rome Was before they were

Corrupted by the middle ages and I Agree with that I think that the practices Before the middle ages are what was preserved

In Anglicanism in England But I don't know if we're actually The middle way because Because it's not like A single church is the middle way

You have Anglicans that are Very very much reformed and low church You have Anglicans that are super Super high church and Anglo Catholic and their doctrine

Is very similar to the Catholics Outside of a few Major issues in the middle ages that Came into Rome like Purgatory Then you have reformed

Anglicans that are Don't even know like No icons

No You know Mariology You know no way to the

Pope ever Kind of situation And those Two groups you're not going to find in the same

Parish or church So to say that we're the middle way is Kind of misleading we're not the middle way

In a single parish but there Are churches that are pretty balanced I call them mid church

They kind of take a lot of the ancient tradition And a lot of the More reformed tradition

And they blend it very well That's the kind I'm in I actually enjoy that I don't think

I could be the High high church snubby Anglo Catholics who I love dearly

If they're listening to this but Boy y 'all need to get a personality And then on the other hand

I don't like the low low church where you walk In and you're like go back out Look on the sign make sure you didn't walk to a

Presbyterian Church either So I think there's a balance but I think it's

Difficult to say that we're the middle way I know That's a term coined to us With Elizabeth But I don't know how accurate

That is in a single practice Of looking at Anglican churches Gotcha I like to make fun of it in my videos

I'll mention that Like when I was doing my shooting video It was the 9mm

Carbine rifle and it was a pistol caliber Carbine because it's the middle way between the Pistol and the rifle so that was the

Anglican church Last question and then we'll Begin to wrap up You mentioned you were defending the doctrine of Sola Fide and this coming

Week I'm going to be preaching at A friend's church He invited me to come and preach and so I'm going to be preaching and the title

Of my message is why we Shouldn't abandon penal substitution And that is something that I'm Going to be

Affirming I've written an Article on it recently and continue To believe that penal substitution Is a foundational part of the gospel

Would you as an Anglican Affirm penal substitution or atonement As part of the gospel

And what do you say to those Who would reject it Again I don't want to speak for all

Anglicans because Anglicans really do have a lot of latitude I hold

To it I think it is essential I think

I say this quite often When I'm asked about things because Labels have stigmas

And there's People that hold penal substitutionary Atonement Or penal and substitutionary

Atonement or things like limited Atonement anything in that relation In that vein That first of all

Misrepresent a lot to Their jerks about it Um And so I think that when we

When we have discussions of doctrine like that We have to preface ourselves a lot like I'm not these guys

But I am this And so I think when it comes to The gospel I think a lot of times there's

People that agree with each other about 95 % Of the time on these things And it's the 5 % where we just Don't view the same

But I do think it is important To the gospel message I think the atonement has so many

Multi -faceted perspectives to it And I think that What Christ did on the cross was not

Limited to a singular Terminology of theology That we have given But that term and it's teaching

I think the teaching Is correct and I think it is orthodox Good deal, good deal

Alright well uh How about one fun question Everybody loves a fun question I said that was going to be the last one

But we can't end on penal substitution That's just too harsh If you were able

If you were a movie director Producer or whatever And you were able to make any bible story

Into a movie that hasn't Been made So you can't do

Dave and Goliath or Noah and the Ark You gotta do something that hasn't been made You as a bible student and scholar

You know all the bible stories Which one do you think would be A great movie You know

I don't know if it would be a great movie But it would be fun to do It might get bad ratings on Rotten Tomatoes But The stories around Elijah and Elisha Are just I know there's movies that cover some of their big stories

Like Prime thing over the prophets of Baal with Elijah And weird things

But particularly Elisha His life And death I mean

I haven't seen a movie With a bunch of she bears Taken out of I mean it might be a horror film

But Even all the way to his death Where we see his relics are laying in a tomb

And There's a battle going on And a guy falls into his tomb Lands on his dead bones

And springs up and he's resurrected from the dead bones So I There might be a movie on Elisha I don't know

But I don't remember ever seeing a movie on his life From the time of his bald head being made fun of To some guy being resurrected

On his dead bones on accident I mean so I'd probably want to do something with Elisha And some of the cool stories surrounding him

I got you I like it That's good the dead bones thing That would be interesting If you look right over my shoulder here

These are my fake movie posters that I created for my backdrop These are all That's my friend the reformator instead of the terminator

Back there but right here is mine And that's the story of Shechem Which is when Dinah the daughter

Of Isaac was Or Jacob Was mistreated

And then the two brothers Went and destroyed I want to see that but in a

John Wick style Take them all out That's right You come into a room and you're taking

That must have been one crazy Story Well at least siblings got along Back then my goodness

Enough to kill a whole city for it It's crazy Well brother

I appreciate you coming on the show And being able to get to know you Better and perhaps one day we can

Get together and talk more I have a dozen more questions I'd like to pick your brain about And I'd love to have guests come back

And return so if you're Willing we'd love to have you back on sometime soon Sure love it I'd love it

It was just a blast I enjoy these Conversations they're fun they're relaxing And even with differences

I love them Great well thank you so much for being a part of the Show today we're going to put all your information In the links below That way if anybody wants to find you we'll be able to send them

To your website and to your podcast and all those things Excellent all right So again I want to thank you guys for being a part of the show

Today thank you for continuing to support Us and again one of the best things you can Do right here on YouTube is hit the subscribe button

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Twice thank you again for listening To your Calvinist podcast my name is Keith Foskey And I've been your