Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Debates, Discussions, and a Dozen Years…

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:11

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:17

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:26

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

00:31

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

00:37

White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

00:42

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

00:49

James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a warm and humid

00:55

Thursday afternoon this morning. Someone was mocking us when I said something about how

01:00

Humid it was some people in channel said oh, does that mean you can actually register the humidity today there?

01:08

It's above 9 % so I went online and At the time we had a 70 degree dew point.

01:16

I checked New Orleans and it was 72 degree dew point in New Orleans So a similar humidity level

01:24

Moisture level to New Orleans. Yes. This is our monsoon. It is thick enough to cut it with a knife out there and Don't know what the temperature is, but probably just under 100 or something like that at the same time

01:36

So it's that it's that time of year and who that hmm

01:42

It's it's just as thick as about anyplace else right now. So it's a it's a rough one.

01:47

Anyway Before we start listening to some Catholic answers live material today.

01:55

I Wanted to clear up some confusion and hopefully at the same time get some excitement going on the parts of a few folks

02:04

I've had a lot of people ask me in channel Is there still an opportunity to go on the cruise or is that all past and it's all gone and there's no more opportunity

02:15

Etc, etc. And so there's only one man on the planet who can answer all of these questions he is the super cruise man the man with all the answers and We call him

02:26

Unicle man, but I won't tell you why because that's embarrassing but with Instead we just call him

02:32

Michael Fallon. Hi Mike. How you doing? Well good. You might as well tell the story now because I'm saving it for your funeral.

02:44

That's just it. You better believe I'm gonna tell that one at your funeral. You bet I do get to I do get to speak don't

02:50

I? Yeah As long as you're not the one to put me there

02:56

Well, that's that's a good question Am I going to put

03:01

Mike in in that in the ground or not? I don't know. I hope not I hope we're not the ones that put the most stress upon you.

03:09

But anyway That's if he beats you to it, yeah, okay.

03:14

Well, yeah, I don't know I poor Mike has to work pretty hard I watched watched my coat weeks ago in Hawaii and he was

03:22

He was working pretty hard along with a few other folks with him as well, but that's all to our benefit. So Mike October 15th through the 19th

03:32

We've got a little something going on up in the beautiful Pacific Northwest and I've had some folks that have basically been asking me.

03:39

So Is it still possible to go? So is it still possible to go? Yeah, I think it's still on your website still on the front page right there and those cabins are still there

03:50

Just like they have been for a year But I know that we've pulled out of our lowest category which is you know, that's

03:58

You know something that we would hope that would happen and then let me just go back here a little while ago

04:04

James I would say for both you and I over the past Two three four five years is that people so well, you know once you make it cheaper, you know, then we might go

04:13

Yeah, right and folks we tried to make this is absolutely cheap as you could possibly be

04:19

And not be on some, you know, booze cruise rust bucket So, you know, we we tried to make sure that we we got you what

04:28

I I believe James This is your favorite ship of all the ships It's it's an odd thing to you know

04:35

I think it's worth the price of admission just to see James actually eat, you know the good French food that is served because You know, it's an odd thing for him not just to order a hamburger every night

04:45

But they do a great job on board but you know folks we we have still rooms that are available at $290 and that's per person, you know and folks really you think about what you're getting for this is that you're getting

04:58

You know four days on the five -star Celebrity Mercury all of your meals All of your drinks unless you're a

05:04

Presbyterian And so forth not to mention that but also some intense theological training

05:10

And I think James wouldn't you say that this year as far as how we're doing things? This is kind of what you and I envisioned many many years ago

05:17

About something that we wanted to do for people and that's kind of create a seminary atmosphere at sea

05:23

It's um, it's not only the fact that we're going to have you know, four hours of training a day especially in the theology of the cross but the fact that you know

05:31

We also have the fellowship with one another and the ability to to to talk with under with one another

05:36

During the day and that's really what we've been after. I think isn't it? Well, not only that but we're doing something very unusual this time around and that is every other time we've done something and had a debate involved with the debate went first and Then the crews came afterwards this time.

05:53

We have the debate at the end. And so I have a very strong feeling that Everyone that is taking the class and doing the studying that they're going to be

06:04

Feeling that growing sense of the fact that the instructor guy is getting into the zone and I'm going to be getting into the zone

06:12

Anybody who knows me knows that those few days before a debate it starts to consume me

06:18

And that's what my my thoughts are on constantly and I'm running through that in my mind

06:23

So I this is going to make for an awesome debate or I'm going to be so fried by the time

06:28

I get there I'm gonna drool the microphone one of the two. I'm not sure which but Most definitely my hope of course is that everybody in the class is going to feel that that excitement and when they go into the debate the the tricky part is we're gonna have to sort of mark out the people who

06:45

Went through the class and keep them as far away from the microphones We can because they're gonna be rushing the the microphones to say.

06:52

Hey, wait a minute. I wanted to point out, you know and They may well and interestingly enough what they might experience is what every debater experiences and that is there's just only so much time in a debate and there are things you'd like to say you just don't get a chance to say it and If they've already been in the class where we had more time to go over things

07:16

It's gonna make the debate experience for them something. They that really I can't imagine any other context where someone's would be able to have the same kind of a of an experience in In being with one of the two debaters for all the days beforehand discussing these various these very things and wanting to be up there doing the debate themselves really and That that'll be a debate.

07:39

They never ever ever forget. So when you think about it, I mean $300 you that's that's what most seminaries charge per hour

07:48

So if this was a two or three hour class, you'd be paying six or nine hundred dollars in tuition not including the books

07:55

Not including food not including all the everything else that goes along with that It's just it's a no -brainer and I'm really really hoping that a lot of folks who have been

08:06

Sort of sitting on the fence and going on not sure don't know will finally get off the fence and because now

08:13

Help me understand something Eventually the ship can sell out, right?

08:19

Yeah, and You know right now we have just about a hundred folks that are on board with us currently

08:25

But if certainly I just experienced I'm going to be on the Mercury here in about another three weeks with another group in Alaska And that ship sold out two weeks ago.

08:34

So people that are thinking, you know, oh I just you know, maybe we'll talk about it We'll see how things are a month from now

08:40

By that time the ship might be sold out and I think James we've been in that position now three times

08:45

The last five or six cruises that we've done where we have to have a waiting list exactly So, you know if you are somebody that is interested in going especially if you're looking at getting one of the lower cost cabins

08:57

I would suggest doing that as soon as possible and making sure that you make your plans to be there as well

09:03

We are going to be doing something those of you that are staying with us at the Seattle Airport Marriott The night before we're going to be having basically our kickoff that night

09:11

And that's for those folks that register with us at the hotel If you haven't done that already please go through the website the link is there and then of course it ends with the debate on Friday evening and That that's just way when you think about how things are going

09:25

There is such a great purpose to this and I don't think there's any other way that we could take a whole week

09:33

And and do all of this have all these experiences together To be able to sit with one another to spend time with one another and to learn from you

09:43

For that entire week, there's just no way that you could do that for any price anywhere else I mean,

09:48

I know there are certain conferences theological conferences Reform theological conferences here in the

09:55

United States that just for entrance for two and a half days is $300 and that's without anything else, right?

10:02

So Folks, we're trying to give you the best value we possibly can. I know that Alpha Omega Ministries Dr.

10:08

James White and certainly Sovereign Cruises is not here to try to milk out more money from you or anything like that We're trying to provide you with the opportunity to be with us for that week and to be part of this experience

10:21

I know some of you had planned on going and maybe thought twice or whatever But folks, this is about as cheap as I can do it

10:30

You know without putting a for sale sign in front of my house You know, I want to do it for you folks and Especially you probably apology and people all you folks you channel rats out there.

10:40

You're the ones that it asked for this You know And you know,

10:48

I hope that certainly you can some of you can can still make it I know that we've had a number of you coming along with us

10:54

I know flamey and Marie P and some others but Love to have some others of you with us and it's always fun

11:00

When we can get together with our brothers and sisters and channel We saw whip out our

11:10

PDAs and start texting each other when we because we can't really talk in person I mean, come on.

11:15

That's way too personal So yeah, you gotta and we can't use our little smiley faces and things like that. So well anyway

11:24

All righty Mike I appreciate you taking the time to join us People know because I you know,

11:29

I kept people kept asking so what about this is it still available and I want to make sure people realize that it is but we're in the situation now where You know, we can't guarantee availability into much of the distant future at all

11:44

And so it's it's time to make the move and I would you know Obviously, I would dare anybody to to look at any other crews as far as value as far as the the teaching the preparation

11:55

I'm really looking forward to having a whole group of people who I know are gonna be praying for me who have been a Part of my preparation.

12:02

I mean it's gonna be a special experience for me as well to have those folks along in that debate

12:07

Mike might add might be a little little pressure a little incentive for me to do a good job because I'm gonna know there's a bunch of folks there that will be quite well prepared on the subject and Probably get a whole lot more out of the debate because of that.

12:21

I mean Anybody who comes in there with that kind of background already there is going to be so far ahead of anybody else

12:28

It's not even funny. So I'm really encouraging folks to think about it and to make plans and To not put it off to the to the procrastinators

12:39

That's it's getting time to stop being one of those procrastinators. So Mike Thank you very much for all the work you do and for the information.

12:45

Should I give the number out? Please sure sure do Yeah, it's eight seven seven seven six eight two seven eight four

12:52

Just ignore the first prompt which is for the Hank Hanegraaff cruise go ahead pass that and just go ahead to extension three and reach me and For the alpha to mega cruise, that's the one that you want to be on That's the one that's going to have all of these events going on folks and we want to make sure that you're there with us

13:09

All right. Thank you, Mike. All right All right,

13:16

I Do hope you will take take him up on that. I got a couple of emails as soon as I got back from Florida that on Tuesday there were there was a fair amount of discussion

13:31

Concerning a radio discussion not a debate but a radio discussion That took place between two people.

13:39

We know well on this program Steve Gregg and Tim Staples and I had played a section where Tim had talked about that a couple months ago

13:49

So I know that it had been it had been put on it at one point but Now they're making it available as I think of five or six

13:58

CD sets You know this great debate and and it was just basically on Steve Gregg's radio program and It's very interesting that they are making it available along with the

14:09

Bible instrument debate Which of course there has never been a debate between a

14:14

Jimmy Akin and noted anti -catholic James White now, of course, they don't refer to Steve Gregg as an anti -catholic and I I wonder when when if someone were to call into Catholic Answers and Ask them about my debates with with Mormons and my debate was should be with Greg Stafford and my debate with Muslims and ask so How is it that an anti -catholic?

14:46

Debates these folks does that make him is he an anti -catholic anti -muslim anti -mormon anti -jehovah's witness

14:52

Anti -jesus seminar Why do you insist on the anti?

14:58

Label and especially using your religion to define his when he is clearly written books

15:06

That were positive in support of his own position Books like the

15:11

God who justifies or things like that Why isn't he a

15:16

Protestant apologist or why isn't he a reformed Baptist apologist? Why do you insist on defining him by your religion?

15:25

it'd be interesting someone would call and Yeah, in fact, I have a queued up a section from number 468

15:36

That Is the the Bible answer man discussion with with Jimmy Akin and We call it a discussion because that's what it was it's not a debate

15:47

It can't be a debate because of the fact that you have Unfair you have uneven time

15:54

Constraints where one person gets to say more than the other person at times There are times when one person gets to address a subject and the other person does not have the opportunity to even

16:04

Respond to that particular subject. You might have a caller who calls in Raises one subject both people comment on it one person says something the other person has a perfect rebuttal

16:15

But the commercial break comes and you come back and the next caller is there and you never get a chance to say it you

16:21

Never get an opportunity. That means it's not a debate. That's why you don't call it a debate and that's why

16:26

I wonder Why Catholic answers isn't doing debates anymore actual debates because remember folks

16:33

You know who the first people were to to contact me and challenge me to do a debate

16:38

Catholic answers in 1990 I think it would have been June July of 1990 it was

16:47

Jerry Matitix back when he was still an Orthodox Roman Catholic and the darling of Catholic answers called me and challenged me to debate in August of 1990 in Long Beach and That was the first formal public debate that I did and it was brought about by Catholic answers at the time.

17:07

They were doing a lot of that for some odd reason. They don't do much of that anymore and Maybe it's because they don't do real well at it anymore and that that might be the possibility.

17:18

But anyways There was some interesting stuff. Let's let's play. I'm gonna play the commercial first The first commercial for this new debate and the

17:27

Bible answer man quote -unquote debate And the listen to the terminology that that they use

17:34

It's one thing for an apologist like Tim Staples to explain and defend the Catholic faith from the comfortable confines of the

17:40

Catholic answers live Studio, it's another thing altogether when he has to go head -to -head with an evangelical radio host

17:47

Who's firing one challenging question after another at him? Well, that's exactly what happened recently

17:52

Of course We don't have to tell you that Tim more than held his own and now you can hear it all when you order the brand

17:58

New audio set faith under fire the five CD debate between Tim Staples and Steve Gregg dial 888 291 8000 or log on to catholic .com

18:11

to order a copy today We'll add a free copy of the Bible answer man debate between our director of apologetics

18:18

Jimmy Akin and well -known anti -catholic James White You'll be glued to your speakers as you hear

18:23

Tim and Steve and a lively yet friendly and productive Exchange that covered crucial topics like tradition the papacy the

18:31

Eucharist the Virgin Mary and more Since this debate is a live discussion loaded with actual arguments and responses from both sides

18:39

It's sure to be especially helpful to anyone who wants to become an able defender of the Catholic faith

18:44

Get two great debates for one low price right now from Catholic answers order faith under fire

18:50

The all -new debate said between Tim Staples and Steve Gregg today And we'll throw in a free copy of the

18:56

Bible answer man debate set called triple eight, too Okay, so there's there's the commercial and you'll notice

19:03

Steve Gregg isn't an anti -catholic but I am Who now who of Steve Gregg or I has done a wider range of apologetic material with a wider range of religions?

19:14

over a longer period of time well Okay, so so much for any consistency on Catholic answers part about that now here is

19:24

Another interesting commercial. I've heard a number of times Remember, we've been trying to get Tim Staples to do some debates.

19:31

You know, the last debate we had was in 2000 it's been almost seven years and he was with a different group then and That debate didn't go well for Tim Staples, okay,

19:42

I mean The the number of egregious on any scale of Debate judgment.

19:49

Mr. Staples lost that debate. He disqualified himself many times He he took cross -examination time to make further statements

19:56

He asked only four or five questions in 12 minutes of cross -examination as I recall. I asked a 40 some -odd during mine

20:03

And he just he just really sort of melted down in that particular debate and many

20:08

Catholics said the same thing and of course St. Joseph's which was the people on the other side at that time st.

20:14

Joseph's Catholic Communications never made it available They don't sell it. You can't buy it from them and there was a discussion that Tim was gonna add two or three

20:23

CDs to it Which he would have to do to just try to catch up for all the things that didn't go well in the debate forum

20:30

And I don't think that ever happened and he was gonna write a book and blah blah blah blah blah. It just never happened

20:35

So it's been seven years. We've contacted them a number of times and we what we keep getting is well,

20:41

Carl wants Tim to stay here and develop materials and and You know doesn't you know wants him wants him to be here doing stuff here

20:52

And so I really found it odd when I started hearing this commercial We just love having

20:58

Tim Staples as part of the staff at Catholic answers He's one of the top apologists in the church today and this may sound kind of strange

21:05

But we don't like having him around the office much. In fact, he'd rather not be here either You see we loved him and we think the world of him, but so do people all over the country

21:15

That's why we don't want to see very much of him We'd rather he was in your town giving a dynamic Presentation on virtually any aspect of the

21:22

Catholic faith and making the arrangements couldn't be any easier. Just follow these three easy steps

21:27

Pick a date pick a place Call our seminar coordinator at six one nine three eight seven seventy two hundred.

21:34

That's all it takes once the plans are so maybe that's what Maybe we should just book him for a seminar and And when we get around to answering the question of what type of seminar?

21:45

Well, there's gonna be two people speaking equal amounts time. How does that sound? I think there was a missing sound effect there

21:51

How could there be there was everything but the kitchen sink exploding in that one touching? Yeah Touching that's right

21:58

We don't we add the touching part. It doesn't doesn't work too. Well, so anyway, so I don't know

22:04

I find that commercial rather odd that man We want to get him out there while speaking, but when you call and you want to debate we need him here developing materials.

22:13

So I've commented on this before and You know, we need a

22:18

Bob Barker sound effect Did I hear right that Drew Carey has been tagged to take his place,

22:28

I'm sorry I don't see that one at all, but that doesn't matter Anyway, so after those commercials in the first break the following discussion came up and this is this is where the discussion of the

22:41

Bible answer and debate and stuff like that actually this first one is primarily just a discussion of the the

22:48

Steve Gregg encounter, but Let's let's take a listen to our staff apologist here Tim Staples as you heard during the break there,

22:55

Tim You got a brand new audio set faith under fire and your latest debate It was an on -air debate with Steve Gregg who hosts his own radio program

23:03

Just want to I'll give you a chance to comment on that But for those who might have thought their ears were deceiving them if you call and order that or log on to our website

23:12

Right now, let me just stop this just for a moment is the phrase anti -catholic Purposeful on the part of Catholic answers or just end up in that one commercial now.

23:22

This part is live This is not a recording and obviously it's recording but you know what? I mean, this is a live part of the program

23:29

So if the term shows up here as a descriptor of me, then that is a purposeful move on their part to use that term anti -catholic is a term that they use to to Get the followers of theirs that froth at the mouth to froth more and we've all seen this

23:47

We've all seen the results of this and the Catholic answers forums These people that just you know will believe any lie any rumor no matter how absurd it might be they'll believe it and How do you do that you whip them up with the anti -catholic stuff another term?

24:02

they like to use as fundamentalist and if you go on to the their website and look at their advertisement for the

24:08

Bible answer man discussion a Omega is a fundamentalist organization and So you got to get the anti -catholic and fundamentalist in there

24:17

Make sure to poison the well make sure these folks aren't aren't even listening to what's said because you have prejudiced them so much

24:23

But let's see if the term anti -catholic is a purposeful ploy And used even in live right now the brand -new 5

24:33

CD set a debate between Tim Staples and Steve Gregg You'll get a free copy of the

24:38

Bible answer man debate between Jimmy Akin and well -known anti -catholic James White Two for one deal going on right now limited time call up at one triple eight two nine one 8 ,000 or go to catholic .com

24:53

and we were talking about this a little during the break Yeah, and I caught bits and pieces of this on the internet on Steve's radio program

25:00

But he had seen you speak somewhere and a few years later That got the the inspiration to invite you on to his radio program actually

25:07

I'd seen him years ago when I was up in Salinas By the way rich you're gonna find this interesting we need to do this

25:15

I'm watching the waveform and what they do is they they misbalance the microphones

25:20

So that if you're listening it sounds like one person's on one side

25:25

More than the other and then a person's on the other side a little bit more so Tim is over on Well, I can't tell by looking at my waveform here

25:32

But you can tell that there's a there's a difference between the two they they balance them in that way

25:37

So it's really cool. We could we could do that, too Huh, we could like do a stereotype thing, but did you just do that?

25:43

Yeah, I just did that so which side of my on you're on. Oh, I'm sorry But then again knowing you you couldn't stand to be on the left of anything if you're an airplane you'd have two right wings so anyway, we go back to that and I was doing a talk at a parish there and I didn't know who

26:01

Steve was at that time But he came to my talk and we talked after my talk and he introduced himself and we had a real cordial discussion and He said hey,

26:11

I'd like to have you on sometime And I said sure and I forgot all about it and here it is years later

26:16

And they contacted us and I I think you know Steve is he's an interesting guy.

26:22

He edited an excellent book on Four views of the book of Revelation. He's actually a fellow who has

26:29

Was out of Calvary Chapel and that sort of tradition and he

26:35

Threw his study and stuff Left the rapture behind and he wrote a very like I said a very good book.

26:42

Is that a future coming book? I left the rapture behind Or edited it anyway on four views in the book of Revelation and he's now a millennial

26:50

Which is basically what we are as Catholics and on that position so I I think over the years that Steve has shown that he is open to the truth and I think the folks who get the debate will hear that with Steve I mean, you know, he's a guy that he's a likable kind of guy and the debate though You know at times we get a little sharp and we disagree.

27:14

It's done very respectfully and you know I joking, you know just a debate without disagreement.

27:20

It's really boring Okay, why would anyone buy a debate without disagreeing say this often

27:26

I think Steve's gonna make a great Catholic, you know Yeah, I don't know about that but But I'm hoping to stay in touch with him and and who knows continue the dialogue, but it was an excellent time five days

27:40

We really got to cover a lot of ground and and I think we really got some good stuff accomplished

27:46

I marry Eucharist papacy tradition It's all on there Absolutely brand new debate set to Tim Staples versus Steve Gregg and again a free

27:54

Bible answer man debate So Jimmy Akin our director of apologetics went to toe -to -toe or mind -to -mind

28:02

There's white who's no no slouch, you know when it comes to Engaging in discussions and debates.

28:08

So absolutely you get the two -for -one right now triple eight Well, I appreciate the no slouch comment.

28:15

Of course. The interesting thing is Jerry Usher There was the non moderator of the debate with Tim Staples that went so badly in in 2000 he was the one who let

28:25

Tim Staples get away with with murder In the sense that even though we had discussed how the cross -examination was supposed to go in his presence in backstage prior to the debate

28:37

You know, he didn't really, you know enforce that once Tim Staples decided that he was going to do it differently.

28:44

So Anyway, so that's so that's how that went So there was there was that portion of of the program and then about half an hour later they ran the promos during the break again for the same new series and in fact, by the way, just passing

29:02

I was looking for a book in my library couldn't find it again and I saw a

29:08

CD set from Tim Staples on Mary that I'd picked up last year and One of the things we've wanted to debate was the

29:17

Marian dogmas with Tim Staples and you know, here he is He's cranking out CD sets

29:22

You know This is the stuff that he is producing for Catholic answers and we can't get him to debate the very issues that he's just put materials out on What does that say?

29:34

It's is there a lack of confidence here. Wouldn't that be a great addition? If if I'm really the the dolt that I am presented as being on the

29:45

Catholic answers forums Wouldn't that be the perfect addition? To the Marian stuff would be here's a here's a debate where Tim Staples demonstrates, you know

29:54

Just how inane this this guy is, you know, that would be a good thing, but It didn't didn't come out of that.

30:01

So anyway 43 minutes past the hour And here is the last discussion in that now this last discussion is where Staples starts talking about the

30:13

Bible Answer Man Discussion and how wonderful and great it was. That's why I went and finally

30:18

I've never listened to the whole thing but I I tracked it down out of our system and I will play a section for you and who knows maybe

30:30

I'll go ahead and grab the mp3 throw it on my player and Maybe we'll go over it.

30:35

I don't honestly I remember which year it was. I think it was one of the first And was it it was it pre 96.

30:43

It couldn't have been that long ago. It's possible because my recollection was that that Aiken was before the two times with Staples and Staples was 96 in 2000.

30:54

So Was it was it pre 96? I man maybe somebody will know when it was cuz

31:00

I don't remember anymore When that was I looked on our material on our website.

31:07

There's no nothing that gives the date. I looked so I If somebody knows let me know

31:12

I'd be interested But here's here's the section where they discussed it I want to really strongly encourage you to get a hold of this new debate set

31:18

Tim Staples and Steve Gregg host of a Protestant radio program and you guys covered some great

31:25

Material we're in the papacy and tradition and that was what was so great about it.

31:30

I love having time over Five days we were able to cover a lot of topics and really go into some depth

31:37

Sometimes when you just do a one -day debate You know you you just neither side really gets to get out what you really want to get out.

31:46

I I Really love it when we can really sit down and hash things out and I know over the last 18 19 years since I've been

31:56

Catholic I've seen a whole lot of my friends Convert to the Catholic faith and it happens over time

32:02

You know it's not a matter of just sitting down and having one discussion and oh boy Where do I sign so in this debate those who get this debate?

32:10

You're gonna hear how our thoughts really develop over the days and and I think

32:16

Steve saw some things I really do I think we made some real progress there and threw out some ideas that perhaps he hadn't considered before and that's one thing that we want to do as Catholics because So many and my everybody listening to me

32:33

Please hear this point, but never assume you can be talking to a guy who's a

32:39

PhD he's been a pastor for 40 years, and he's been an anti -catholic for 40 years and Often they don't know what the

32:47

Catholic position is I see it all the time And and you just never know you do what you can you share the truth and all of a sudden

32:56

Sometimes and I'm not saying this is the case with with with Steve You know but I know in my own experience and folks that I've helped into the church

33:03

It's like all of a sudden. Oh a light bulb goes on now I see what you guys are saying so it's real important I think dialogues like this and Jimmy Akin's debate with James White is an excellent example

33:17

I mean there's a a couple of points on there where Jimmy Akin just makes great points.

33:22

I remember on Such as baptism in the in the fathers, and how it's the unanimous teaching

33:28

And there's no father the church that ever denies this now That's a powerful statement that of course

33:34

James White couldn't respond to because it's true number one And it really and I know in my own life

33:41

Jerry those sorts of zingers rattled around in my head Now let me stop right there a zinger about baptism.

33:50

You know it's fascinating Last week well actually two days ago. I noted a man on the

33:58

Envoy magazine forums who you know had some I was a mental midget incapable of researching church history and Obviously people believed in the bodily assumption of Mary as a dogma of the

34:12

Christian faith before The end of the 5th century and here's the example and what he does is he cites the transitive

34:19

Maria literature of pseudo Melito which means it it is pseudo Melito means It's not

34:25

Melito Sardis and it's very clear this man thought that Melito Sardis the bishop of Sardis at the end of the 2nd century

34:32

Was actually the author of this and then he later came back because he realized oops that actually was made up later on and I was able to point out that of course this was the very same literature that was condemned by Pope Galatias at the end of the 5th century and to to take

34:48

A subject like that. I then saw Phil Provoznik Commenting that well, you know if he starts addressing the baptism issue then his arguments gets

34:59

Merrill start making sense Folks think about what these people are saying they're saying well Um, so since we think we're right about this one that means we're right about everything and So since we can make an argument about baptism regeneration

35:14

And of course you actually you want it need to go into there's there's so much that goes into examining the early churches doctrine of baptism

35:22

I was reading for example on that before the the Shishko debate on infant baptism in regards to who even the subjects of baptism were and What evidence there is for infant baptism in that primitive period and this was actually a book by Individuals who believe in infant baptism and practicing for that in the baptism and there's so much to go into even at that That to just throw out these these these basic wide

35:47

Statements that that really don't mean anything The only people you're trying to impress are people who are not going to think deeply about what you're saying

35:55

But let's let's grant all that on that subject if you're going to say

36:00

Oh, see, this was the everyone in this time period believe this Nobody in that time period believed as a dogma what you believe about the bodily assumption nobody

36:12

Zero, so if you're gonna be consistent Then what would it mean about your ultimate authority claims you would be contradicting yourself

36:21

But those who are slaves the system just can't see it. They just go well If you're right about that, that must mean we're right about the other things too.

36:29

And you read this stuff and you go Oh my goodness the power of self -deception That these individuals are demonstrating in this kind of thing.

36:38

It's just it's just absolutely unbelievable You know when when somebody hit me with something whether it be the Eucharist or like in the case in Jimmy Akins debate

36:45

Baptismal regeneration or whatnot then that guy on the other side has to think about it and I can remember 20 years ago

36:52

I wonder has Tim Staples thought about the the open letter for example that I wrote to him in 1996 documenting from The thesaurus lingua grecae the actual terminology used by Athanasius that he had misrepresented our debate.

37:07

Has he thought about that? 11 years later. He's never responded to it. It doesn't seem to have impacted him

37:13

How about in 2000 that collapse he had on papal infallibility? And the fact that the the defenses that he offered are contradicted by other

37:21

Roman Catholics has that been bouncing around in his head Or is he still right exactly where where he was?

37:29

Hmm ideas like that rattling around in my head No Christian ever denied this who am

37:36

I? No Christian ever denied this Well, you know what guess what folks no

37:43

Christian during the first 500 years of the church ever denied that Martians are green

37:52

Therefore it must be true He who makes the allegation

37:59

Bears the burden of the proof it's not a matter of none denied it it is did anyone teach it

38:07

That's why I asked Matta ticks what I asked him in that debate Jerry, can you give someone the 5th century?

38:12

Can you give someone the 4th century? Can you give someone in the third set? Well, I don't have to give you all the church fathers Jerry. I'll take just one.

38:19

I mean that is the the marvel of Romanism and this is Romanism because when when

38:25

Rome can be allowed this kind of of Freedom to say anything she wants and then defended by well, nobody denied it

38:34

That's because nobody believed it, you know, I mean Make the make the consistent application all the way across the board.

38:44

I Mean if you're gonna try to say ah Athanasius, okay, you know then what you're gonna need to do is you're gonna need to Examine what he actually said and make the same application to the other things that you claim our

38:59

Apostolic tradition as well to reject the teaching of all these great saints from Ignatius of Antioch to st.

39:07

Justin Martyr st Irenaeus all these great men many of whom gave their lives for the faith. I think these debate sets are really

39:15

They're excellent for for Catholics to get to to encourage them in the faith to learn how to defend the faith

39:22

And I'll tell you something else Jerry. I'd recommend to folks get a couple copies Well, you know what we stand ready to help

39:29

Catholic answers create some more of these debate sets with both Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples on Topics that really need to be addressed on the

39:39

Marian dogmas and purgatory and indulgences We really the papacy the

39:46

I mean certainly these are things that have not been fully addressed and now with with st.

39:53

Genesau doing his thing and with Matta ticks Off, you know in in set of agonism and by the way folks.

40:01

He's going to be on Matta ticks will be on iron sharpens iron next Wednesday talking about his reasons why he does not believe that Benedict is a is a proper

40:14

Pope and and all the rest of stuff and I'm gonna be on the day after to comment upon that so be listening to iron sharpens iron next

40:22

Wednesday and That should be it should be very interesting. But anyway, we would like to help

40:28

Catholic answers to provide more of those debate sets and We would be happy to to be involved in the production of that which means

40:39

Debates not discussions real debates would be a good thing to do now

40:45

Aaron in Porterville, California did you say that Aaron has the

40:52

The originals or who has the originals of those you said something the caller has the

40:57

BAM originals you type that did you not a Different caller has the BAM originals.

41:03

Well, I only have one caller so I couldn't know about other colors So what did he tell us when they were what the dates were 1995

41:11

Okay, 1995 that was all right. I that was the first time that I was on Hanks program.

41:18

I sound really distorted my headsets. I don't know what's going on with it That was the first time that I was on with somebody else on the

41:26

Bible answer man broadcast was with man I was 12 years ago. That was a long time ago. Okay, let's let's move on from there

41:32

If you'd like to comment on that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one if you'd like to comment on The Steve Gregg materials over the past few weeks.

41:41

I have I think now provide a rather full explanation of The issue of the respecter of persons topic over the past couple of days

41:50

Whatever else it might be eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk to Aaron in Porterville, California Sorry, Aaron.

41:58

I was misled as to what you what you had there Yeah, well, it's that's alright

42:05

I just could not remember what the year was but now we know is 1995 What can we do for you today?

42:11

Well, maybe mine was also has a year in it. It's a 1689 Confusion, but I just want to to say first of all, thanks for going so carefully through all the material material.

42:23

You've been Hitting lately and it's been very appreciated. Okay. I just had a quick question for you.

42:29

I And in my own study and in my own Conclusions I've come to based on that I'm I'm moving fairly closely to to a reformed

42:43

Baptist position Pretty closely and I've been looking over the the 1689 confession

42:50

And just had a quick question on on one one article in there for you If you wouldn't mind answering sir to the best your knowledge on that it's the it's the chapter 28 of the confession of baptism in the

43:03

Lord's Supper and I This is the second the second one there says these holy appointments

43:14

Meaning baptism in the Lord's Supper are to be administered by those only who are qualified and thereunto called according to the

43:21

Commission of Christ and I guess my point of clarification on that with would that in the in the reformed

43:28

Baptist confessional tradition would that be Reserved only for for elders and and those in the ministry in an ordained sense or basically, it's a recognition that These these ordinances are ordinances of the church.

43:47

They're not ordinances of individuals and Therefore since they are ordinances of the church

43:54

Then they are observed by the gathered body when you look at the Lord's Supper When Paul addresses this for example in 1st

44:02

Corinthians chapter 11, he talks about the church Coming together and and he brings correction to the church as a whole not just individuals

44:11

It's not just up to an individual go. Hey, you know what? I think I'll have a Lord's Supper party on Thursday night at my house and We'll do it right after Thursday night

44:19

NFL football or something like that. This is a this is a church ordinance It's meant for the gathered body.

44:24

It's an act of worship And therefore when the body gathers there is order in that gathering and the individuals who are

44:33

Given charge over the order of the gathering of the body are the elders of the congregation We if you look at the 1689 we recognize two two offices in the church and that is the elders and the deacons and The elders presbyters overseers bishops.

44:48

We view those as all being the same office are charged with the The orderliness of the worship the

44:55

God -centeredness of the worship and therefore in both the Lord's Supper and in baptism both that these are to be

45:04

Ordinances that are of the church and therefore under the oversight of those who have the oversight of the church Which would be the elders so that's that's the reasoning as I understand it behind 28 to That these ordinances are to be done

45:18

Under the authority of those it doesn't it wouldn't necessarily follow that it has to be performed by One of the elders so that would be normative for example if an elder in a church

45:29

For a physical reason would not be able to baptize someone. I mean I've seen some pretty small elders and some really big candidates, you know

45:38

Obviously in that situation someone else could do that. It's not some type of sacerdotal authority that is associated with that but normatively certainly actually

45:50

Even small elders can actually handle some pretty big people because once you're in the water You don't weigh nearly as much as you do. Otherwise, so Some tricks to that, but anyway

46:03

So that's yeah that I think that's the thinking behind The comments there. Okay.

46:08

Yeah, I was wondering if there if there wasn't, you know, some sort of yeah, like a sacerdotal or sacramental

46:13

No, it's to the point where it was only to be performed and administered by By certain individuals, you know,

46:22

Murray no exception. No, I don't I don't think that's the case I think that it's a recognition that this is a church ordinance and therefore those who who are by by God's Commission involved in Having the responsibility of making sure that what the church does is honoring to him are the elders and therefore they really can't

46:38

Do that if if they're not the ones that are charged with the performance those ordinances themselves it's sort of like one of the arguments

46:45

I make for church membership and that is while you can't find a Church role per se in the

46:52

New Testament. The elders are charged with with the care of the sheep and it's pretty tough for a shepherd to take care of a flock when he doesn't know who is in the flock and You can't shepherd somebody if you don't know that they're they are actually under your authority and so It's it's similar.

47:08

I think along those lines now just a sense since you're looking at the 1689 In passing

47:14

I always find it interesting to ask folks what they thought of a chapter 30 because chapter 30

47:21

Is is a little challenging to folks who who don't have a a real deep theology of the ordinances

47:30

In in their other traditions. I don't know what to what tradition that you're you're currently a part of or what you know What your background is, but yeah chapter 30

47:37

Frequently causes a few eyebrows to be to be raised. Yeah, you know, actually

47:43

I stopped about 28 and 29 Then now, you know exactly what to expect in chapter 30

47:52

Well when you have a section on the Lord's Supper that's eight Paragraphs. Yeah, I'm looking at that.

47:58

Yes. Yes I think you'll find it to be a little more in -depth and involving a little bit more than your average

48:06

Your average Baptist discussion of the Lord's Supper. So who knows? Maybe we'll get another call from you about that one.

48:12

Once you get a chance. Okay I'd welcome the opportunity to call in and just real quickly before I go

48:18

I Just want to throw this out there Bill Craig on his website reasonable faith

48:27

There's a little banner that flashes across that that is a link to a radio interview he did

48:33

With some program. I'm not sure. I can't remember what it was, but they they were sort of juxtaposing comments by a

48:42

Former Christian named Dan Barker. Oh, yeah against and then getting William Lane Craig's Bill Craig's feedback on that and and and and take on it and towards the end of the program that he it basically this guy who went through the

49:01

Much like Bart Ehrman did through the the process of his His learning his his education his study brought him to the to the point of disbelief and and William Lane Craig hadn't had an interesting

49:18

Response to why it led him it led this guy to unbelief whereas his studies have strengthened his belief and it had to do with a

49:27

With an emphasis on Inerrancy, so I was I was really I was really curious that maybe some way somewhere down the line if he has some time to Give some comments on that.

49:38

Yeah, it sounds it sounds very much parallel to the

49:43

Debate that William Lane Craig had with Bart Ehrman because he likewise addressed

49:48

The parallels that existed in their lives and and in essence made the same type of statements now, right?

49:54

I Know Dan Barker and in fact have some fascinating stories from back when

50:02

I was about 21 or 22 years old I ran into Dan Barker live on The Tom Likas show in studio now people today may or may not know who

50:18

Tom Likas is he's one of the top shock jocks around and He was pretty controversial even back in the 1980s when

50:26

I first was I was think I was on his program like 1618 times something like that and There was one day that that Barker and I went back and forth for quite some time on the

50:36

Likas show who himself claims to be an atheist and We ended up having I had him on our program

50:43

On the dividing line and we did some extensive correspondence brilliant fellow concert pianist.

50:49

He designed The Railroad system in the Northeast initially

50:56

I mean, here's you know, here's a guy very very brilliant, but if you want to see where presuppositional apologetics is absolutely necessity because it recognizes the reality of of The impact of sin the noetic in fact impact of sin upon the mind of man

51:13

There's there's a really good example someone who does not see How sin impacts the mind of man is going to have a really hard time

51:20

Figuring out how someone as as bright as Dan Barker can likewise be so incessantly dishonest in his representations of Christian faith and things along those lines.

51:32

So it's it's a fascinating thing. So What I said Dan Barker.

51:37

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Yes. Okay. Anyway. All right. Thank you, sir Yeah, thank you. All right.

51:42

God bless. All right. Bye. Bye Oh number 407. Why are you doing it in the channel? We have this little thingy up here and then we have the thing down the channel

51:48

We need to figure out which one we're going to use either the channel or the phone thing I'm not sure which one because in the channel just scrolls by so Whenever else talks it just goes it disappears so I don't see it going by so anyway

52:03

Dan Barker for those of you who would like to hear the time that we had him on the dividing line number 407

52:10

Is that available in mp3? Okay mp3 and CD that was long before there was such a thing as DVD Long before we long before even owned a video camera let alone were able to make video recordings

52:23

Dan Barker is the head of the freedom from religion foundation up in Madison, Wisconsin and Like I said, honestly,

52:31

I would probably be Well below 25 probably 24 23 for that particular encounter that we had so a good 20 years ago or more

52:42

When we had that encounter, so I sound different and hopefully have have grown up a little bit since that Okay, I told you that I had

52:54

I'm gonna try to throw this in here real quick Here is a section where Aiken and I go back and forth

53:00

I have been asked to define soul scriptura now listen to what I say that this is something that has come up if you've read

53:05

The blog this has come up since this time Here I explained to Jimmy Aiken on national radio

53:14

I went through Matthew 15 and I pointed out look Jesus calls us to examine even those traditions which claim to be divine in light of Scripture and Even in 1995 he still could not hear what

53:29

I was saying. He still did not respond He instead of hearing what I said Goes well, that doesn't mean

53:36

Jesus condemned all traditions. I didn't say he condemned all traditions I said he told us to examine all traditions

53:42

Even those that claim to be a divine origin in the light of Scripture listen to this section from the Bible and Samantha Scott James Right your particular understanding of this issue from a

53:52

Protestant perspective It is indeed the foundational issue in my opinion And fortunately it is a difficult issue to address for a number of reasons first of all

54:01

There's a number of different understandings amongst Roman Catholics in regards to what tradition refers to Many Roman Catholics today, especially

54:09

United States would like to limit tradition to merely the interpretive ability of the church others more traditional would

54:18

Assert that there is actually a body of oral tradition that is passed down separately that contains

54:26

Revelation from God that is not found in the Bible others would say no at least in some

54:31

Semblance, it's all found the Bible and so it's a very difficult issue. I'm afraid a lot of people Do not really know what the argument is actually all about I like to go back to the

54:41

Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter 15 And in Matthew chapter 15 he encountered individuals who?

54:48

Believed that their religious tradition had sacred Traditions from God they believed these sacred traditions had been passed down that they were divine in origin and they were authoritative and when the

55:02

Lord Jesus encountered these individuals the scribes and the Pharisees and They used these traditions to accuse him of wrongdoing

55:11

I think we need to follow his example of what he did we all know what happened in Matthew chapter 15

55:17

When the tradition of the elders was thrown up in the face of the Lord Jesus, how did he respond he said

55:23

Jesus replied? This is verse 3 of chapter 15, and why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

55:30

For God said honor your father and mother and anyone who curses his father and mother must be put to death But you say that if a man says to his father and mother whatever help you might otherwise have received from man for me as a

55:38

Gift of God he is not to honor his father and mother with it Thus you nullify the Word of God for the sake of your traditions you hypocrites

55:46

Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you etc. Etc. Now remember these individuals thought that the tradition

55:51

They were using was divine in origin They had used their best efforts shall we say?

55:57

To determine whether this extra scriptural tradition was in fact from God or not the point is the

56:04

Lord Jesus Christ Subservient at all traditions whether claimed to be divine or human to the ultimate authority of Scripture and the question then comes down Are the

56:14

Roman Catholic traditions subservient to Scripture and does the Roman Catholic system as it is set up with the teaching magisterium?

56:21

Have the ability to honestly apply Matthew chapter 15 And I would submit that that is not what takes place and I would submit that when we look at the doctrines that have been defined on the basis of tradition

56:32

Doctrines such as the immaculate conception of the bodily assumption of Mary or papal infallibility

56:38

We see that Matthew chapter 15 cannot be Functionally applied the

56:43

Protestant position is that? The scriptures being God -breathed are the ultimate authority for the man of God that they are able to thoroughly equip the man of God for Every good work that does not mean that we don't believe that the church has a role in teaching

56:56

It does not mean that we throw the Holy Spirit out the door It does not mean the church cannot grow in its understanding of what the scriptures teach

57:04

What it does mean is that there is no authority higher than Scripture It should be noted that you have written that Athanasius fought a sometimes lonely battle in defense of the deity of the

57:15

Lord Jesus Christ When he did he stood against the full weight of the Church of Rome he at that particular point in time refuted his enemies not by by reference to oral tradition, but by a

57:27

Logical insightful exegesis of Scripture Right and I I use

57:33

Athanasius because the simple fact that he was dealing with the deity of Christ tradition But by addition refers to rightful

57:40

Exegesis and Catholics today. I have no idea what happened there. I use a physician To that he was dealing with the deity of Christ ability.

57:47

Yeah, it's almost like it's in a loop there or something I'm just gonna skip right past it's all found the Bible and so a sort that there is actually do not really know

57:54

You know what that is I'm trying to pull the feed off of the file server all of a sudden for some reason the file server

58:00

Is is throwing me all sorts of all sorts curves there even though it has the whole the whole thing in front of me

58:08

It's it's not it's not excited. Let's see if we can get a concern change your comments. Well, by the way, I'm good Just so I don't confuse everybody here.

58:15

We have a James White and a James Aiken. So I may refer to you as mr Aiken not because I don't personally care for you, but or mr

58:23

White just so that the listening audience knows who I'm talking to again. Mr. Aiken who represents

58:28

Catholic answers your comments Okay. Well, I'd have to say a number of things Just in regard to the scripture text that mr.

58:35

White referred to Matthew chapter 15 and he recited verse 3 and so forth That I'm afraid

58:43

I'm afraid he engaged in a little bit of isogenesis there if you continue reading in that passage and you get down to verse 9

58:49

You find Jesus giving a quotation from the book of Isaiah and applying it to his pharisaical opponents

58:55

And it says that in vain do they worship me teaching his doctrines the precepts of men?

59:01

And so the problem here was not simply that they were using traditions Jesus did not hear condemn all traditions.

59:07

All he condemned were traditions of men. Mr. White In fact talked about the tradition of the elders

59:12

Well, the tradition of the elders was wrong And so merely the fact that Jesus said in this case that this tradition is wrong the traditions of the elders are wrong

59:21

The their teaching his doctrine the precepts of men that doesn't mean all traditions are wrong now I just stopped there for just a moment.

59:28

That's not what I said I mean anyone, you know, that may sound good if you're if you're listening a very surface fashion or You know, if you're not to go back and listen if you're not gonna write down what somebody said, what did

59:41

I say? He just accused me of ice of Jesus did he Demonstrate any ice Jesus not in the slightest.

59:48

He just made so he so here is an accusation. That was false and My assertion he has not responded to and now he's putting forth a straw man that I said

59:57

Ah here Jesus condemns all tradition. What I said was that Jesus commanded us to test

01:00:04

Every tradition even those not just those that are quote -unquote of men

01:00:09

But even those that men claim come from God by the higher standard of Scripture, so that's not a response to what

01:00:15

I said It's a straw man and an unfounded accusation of ice of Jesus All within the first few moments now, the problem is

01:00:23

I don't get a chance to get back to this That's the nature of non debates That's the nature of radio programs is you don't get to get back and go excuse me

01:00:33

But you were wrong about it in cross -examination In a debate where you actually have time to do these things you can and there's the point that I've been attempting to to make all along is that we need to do real debates not just Discussions and try to pretend their debates and get away with that kind of thing, which we just heard from Jimmy Akin Well, thanks for listening to the dividing line today.

01:00:57

We covered a lot of ground and We will be back Lord willing on Tuesday regular time missed it this week

01:01:05

Sorry about that, but I was out of town and so next Tuesday morning. We will be here 11 a .m

01:01:11

Our time 2 p .m. Eastern Daylight Time here on the dividing line. We'll see you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

01:02:18

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P.

01:02:24

O box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omin org

01:02:31

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks