November 1, 2023 Show with Baruch Maoz on “Insights of a Reformed Baptist Israeli in Israel on the Current Crisis with Hamas”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this first day of November 2023.

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And I am thrilled to be on the program I have not interviewed in a long time, and I'm so delighted that I have the opportunity today when it is perhaps more relevant and timely than ever.

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Today, our guest is Baruch Moaz, an Israeli theologian who has written biblical commentaries and theological and practical works in the

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Hebrew language through his ministry Soli Deo Gloria. He is the author of a critique of the

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Messiah, Come, Let Us Reason Together, a Study of Jews and Gentiles in the

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Church. He is a former Israel field leader from 1974 to 2006, a

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Christian witness to Israel, and a former member from 1975 of Grace and Truth Christian Congregation in Rishon LeTitzion, Israel.

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And today, he's going to be addressing insights of a Reformed Baptist Israeli on the current history of Hamas, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Baruch Moaz.

02:40

Thank you, Chris, I'm glad to be with you again. And Baruch, am I pronouncing your name correctly?

02:47

I've heard it a few ways, I've heard Mayaz recently. Which one is the more correct pronunciation?

02:54

None of the pronunciations that you've tried are correct. All of them are acceptable.

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Okay. Make sure you're speaking as closely to the microphone you're using, because you did get a little quiet there.

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So hopefully, we'll be hearing you a little bit more in the remainder of the program.

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Before we go into the current situation in Israel, where you are now,

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I think it would be helpful, even though you've done this before on the show, it's been so long, it would be helpful for you to give a summary of your salvation testimony, and how an

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Israeli became a Reformed Baptist, because even for an

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Israeli Christian, a Reformed Baptist, I'm sure, is even a tinier minority than being merely an evangelical

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Christian. So why don't you tell us a bit about your testimony, born in Boston, Massachusetts, and quite an interesting story about how your mother was divorced and kidnapped you and your younger brother and brought you to Israel.

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Why don't you start with that? Well, let me pick up from that. We arrived in Israel in 1953.

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I joined a kibbutz and lived in a kibbutz for a number of years and then moved into a city.

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I joined the army at 18, were mandatorily enlisted at the age of 18, but can join earlier if we wish and be released earlier.

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And so I joined at the age of 17. Year and a half, a three year military service,

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I met a Christian family who preached the gospel to me. I was impressed not with what

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I heard, but with what I saw of the impact of the gospel. Their message,

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I believed, was irrelevant to me. And so it was on those grounds that I kind of defended myself against the claims of Christ.

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I'm a Jew, but I'm a Christian for Gentiles. Then His mercy brought across my path a unique Jewish Christian.

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You need to understand that the Church of Christ in Israel in those days was less than my country.

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It was somewhere between or there was between two to three hundred in the whole of the country.

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And a large number of them were immigrants. But here was an authentic Jewish Christian of Yemen, who loved the faith and preached the faith.

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And it was through his testimony and the challenge that he posited to me, that I found grace in Christ.

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I was converted to Christ on November 11, 1963.

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Two years later, I traveled to Britain to study. Our theology professor was a

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Palestine Calvinist. And it was basically through the theological discussions that we held at college, that I was forced by Scripture to come to the

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Doctrine and Covenants. It was only after that that I was willing even to consider reading who is now my favorite commentator,

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John Calvin. I love him because he's so warm and so un -Calvinistic.

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He is not committed to a system. He's committed to Scripture, and he's prepared to sound quite un -Calvinistic.

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That's what the text. And I adore that devotion and obedience to the

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Scriptures. So that's how I came to the Doctrines of Grace. Amen.

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And was there a time when you were learning the Doctrines of Grace that you either were or were leaning toward Presbyterianism, or did the

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Reformed Baptist model always seem to be motivated? My early

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Reformed influences were all Baptistic, and so it was only at the later stage that I became aware of and was challenged by Presbyterian Reformed Christianity.

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Over the course of years, my position has not shifted. I hope my heart has stayed as often as the hearts of our

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Baptistic brethren, but my convictions remain as firm as they were in early days.

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Well, I'm happy to hear that, being a Reformed Baptist myself. And you're doing a lot of translation work, not only translation work, into the modern readable

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Hebrew, but you're also translating works, Christian works, into modern readable

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Hebrew. Why don't you tell us something about that? Well, some 27 years ago, we began a project of translating the

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Bible into spoken Hebrew vocabulary so that a 14, 15 -year -old could read it and understand it.

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And that project has happily now come to the end. I have to translate it.

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I edited their work, and then my translator edited my translation of the

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New Testament. That project has now been completed, published in four volumes.

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The New Testament has now been set to type in order to be published, and I expect it to be on our shelves in the next six months or so.

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Praise God. Indeed. It's a long -term project, and as I've often said, if it was the only thing that God privileged me to do, it would be enough to live for.

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I'm engaged in writing in Hebrew because there's a tremendous amount of Christian literature in Hebrew, particularly from a

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Reformed point of view. So I've written commentaries on all but one of the minor prophets, and I'm sure you'll have left

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Zechariah to the end. I have yet to work on him. I'm working now on a major work on the principles of Bible understanding, in other words, hermeneutics, how to understand the

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Bible, as I'm calling it. There is nothing like that available in Hebrew at the moment, and we are contemplating the possibility of translating

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Herman Bavinck's The Word of God, published in English, under the title

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Our Reasonable Faith. It's a wonderful, warm -hearted compendium of systematic theology.

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Amen. Now, those who live in Israel, the ones who are ordering these

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Hebrew works more than anywhere in the world, because you understand, a

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Jewish person in the United States, for instance, does not speak or read

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Hebrew. They may have a limited exposure when they have a

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Jewish passport or something like that. Is it true that it is a largely unknown language amongst most

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Jews throughout the world, except for Israel? On the whole, you're correct.

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My reading target audience is in Israel. And let's go to your book, which is a controversial book, a critique of the

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Messianic movement, Come, Let Us Reason Together, The Unity of Jews and Gentiles in the

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Church. If you could give us the compelling reason why you believe this book, which

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I believe originally was titled Judaism is Not Jewish, if I'm not mistaken. And I'm sorry?

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You're not mistaken. Yes, yes. And obviously a much better title.

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But tell us about this book, how it came to be, and what its reception has been.

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Well, frankly, the issue is controversial, but it is the day of the apostles, and it still is today.

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Yes. And the issue really is the sufficiency of the work of Christ.

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Has he done all that is necessary for our ultimate salvation? And what does that mean for church life?

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If Christ has done everything, then surely he should be the focal point of church life.

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He should be the center of everything we do. Not our ethnic identity, not our languages, not our cultural preferences, not whether we're blue -collar or white -collar or whatever other color we may want to choose.

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He's the one who unites all, so that his coat would be a coat of many colors.

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The Messianic movement places identity in its cultural overtones at the center of its church life, and thereby displaces

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Christ, overshadows his work, and divides the church. I feel very strongly about that.

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Yes, it seems that well -meaning but misguided

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Messianic denominations, and also probably the majority of our dispensationalist brethren, seem to want to keep a wall of some kind between the

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Jew and Gentile, and the resurrected, that has been torn down in Christ. Obviously, you will hear from both of those movements that we are one in Christ and so on, but there is definitely an ethnic focus that seems to be in the

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Scriptures very clearly, have been obliterated in importance. And amongst the

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Messianic Jews and dispensationalists, it's still elevated to an area that might even appear to be racist.

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Am I making sense here? I don't know if racism was all who would embrace this ethnic, not racial, but ethnic identity are welcomed.

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But to be honest, I fault American churches for their

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American version of Christianity, as if to say that the only proper way to conduct worship is as is done in whatever consensus of Reformationist churches or Reformed and Presbyterian churches.

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One can worship with the tom -tom, one can worship with the grass skirt, one can worship sitting on a chair, one can worship a sing -song kind of a sermon, one can worship hearing a sermon in which our conversation is conducted with the congregation and the congregation responds.

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We all have a tendency to say that, you know, it's our way or the highway.

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And that has found particular expression in the Messianic movement because they have attached a certain higher spirituality to what they believe to be authentically

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Jewish customs, many of which are not authentic nor necessarily

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Jewish. But again, one finds an American... Yeah, I'm assuming you're saying that much of what

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Messianic Christian, or Messianic Jews, I should say, is a part of their practice are rabbinical teachings that are not canonical from the

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Hebrew Scriptures? Well, allow me to comment.

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The first is that the overwhelming majority of Messianics are not

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Messianic Jews. They're Messianic wannabes, they're Gentiles. And the second is that a large part of what is done in the

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Messianic movement isn't even rabbinic. It's not traditionally Jewish at all.

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For example, they will light candles on the Friday in the synagogue. Maybe a woman performing could never be done in a

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Jewish context. Or they have this so -called Davidic dancing, which never heard of before.

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Certainly not typically Jewish. Not of what is being done in the context of Messianic Judaism isn't

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Jewish at all. And what is, is obviously a mask, a put on. It's only those who have already been persuaded.

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Well, I am looking forward to delving more into your book, and perhaps we could have a return -blown program on that.

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But I know that today, people are really interested primarily in what is happening in Israel right now, all the atrocities they hear about daily at the hands of Hamas.

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And can I ask you, I know that you are living in the United States for some time, retiring from your pastorate in Israel.

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But you returned, obviously, that's where you are right now. When did that happen?

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And where are you specifically in connection to where the crisis is currently raging on with Hamas?

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Well, my wife and I were planning a ministry to Israel in any case.

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Our tickets were canceled. Our flights were not available. And I came nonetheless as soon as I could find a flight, which is only with the

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Israeli President, El Al, to identify with my people and to be as much of a help as I possibly can.

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So I arrived here on the 16th of October and, God willing, plan to be here at least 12th of December.

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Situation continues to be as it is at the moment. I will probably prolong my time here.

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I'm situated in the center of the country, but you need to understand that Israel is a piece of land wedged between the sea and the desert.

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I could reach the northern part of the Gaza border in a 35 -minute drive.

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Wow. And do you believe that right now you and your wife are in harm's way as far as the activities that are going on?

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Well, my wife is not with me, but I am in harm's way. Oh. She's in the

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States. Oh, okay. And there is different responses to what's going on.

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I'd like to get more involved in that when we return from our first commercial break, that you have been witnessing, as well as the rest of the world, different responses to the hostilities that have been waged against the

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Israelis by Hamas. And there are some that are staggering the mind.

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Many of us didn't realize the deep -rootedness of hatred towards Jews that exists here in the

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United States. Some of us may have been naïve enough to think that that all seemed to be done with the diminishing of the

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Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi groups and so on, although those groups still exist, but not near in the weight and force, numeric height that they had many years ago.

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But to see the crowds of thousands protesting against Israel and Jews with the hatred, not just in regard to military issues, but the fomenting of hatred, the death of Jews, it's quite startling.

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We'll continue with that when we come back from our first break. If you are hearing this program and would like to send in a recorded question, a recorded program,

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I should say, and so therefore, when you're hearing this program on Wednesday, November 1st, you cannot submit questions because this program will have already been broadcasted, but however, we do some advanced publicity for the show and invited listeners to submit questions, and we do have some questions that we will incorporate into the show to us by listeners as possible, and so I look forward to the continuation of our discussion right after these messages do not go away.

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and always mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Baruch Maoz, even though he has informed me that that is not the correct way to pronounce his last name.

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That pronunciation, and Baruch, how are you personally reacting to the outcry from so many college students and so many people defending the actions of Hamas throughout the

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United States, and even more violently in other parts of the world? Nothing can justify

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Hamas's atrocities, and anyone attempting to do so simply does not deserve an answer.

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In terms of the outbreak of terrorism, something that has been dormant and yet has accompanied us as Jewish people throughout our history for 2 ,000 years with repeated outbreaks.

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In this case, it's a bit different. It's different in the sense that it's taken on a kind of a global, national meaning for young people, particularly who are eager and are quick to take on to slogans without having to think too much about the issues.

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But if you think about it, the majority of the instigation of these riots, these protests against the

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Jewish people following Hamas's attack, are foreign students, not

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American, but foreign students who have come to America in order to study, but are committed to a radical

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Muslim point of view. A kind of a radical point of view that would any

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Democrat, let alone Israel. I'm deeply concerned to think that young people could be radicalized in such a way that they could, through the fog of propaganda, and be willing to support the kind of action, or at least ignore the kind of actions that were taken by Hamas on November 7th.

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Because of Israel's failings, and Israel has moral failings like any other country, nothing, nothing at all can ever, ever justify or ever explain tying two men back to back with wire and sending them on fire.

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Nothing can ever justify or explain shooting a baby in his crib, repeatedly.

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Nothing can ever justify or explain shooting a Thai farm worker and then beheading his head, beheading him with a garden hoe, shouting,

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God is great. This is a kind of a trend that anyone in his right mind should be willing to denounce with the utmost vigor.

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And I'm deeply disappointed in these children, who have not provided them with the kind of moral backbone and moral ability to look at reality, so that they've been swept away by this.

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Propaganda. And how do you respond to those, not only on the left, who are tenacious, vociferous supporters of Hamas, but also there are some right -leaning sources that have said that these more barbaric actions and murder have been substantiated.

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How do you respond to those claims? Well, you'll always find holocaust deniers.

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There are videos that the Hasniks themselves took and placed on Facebook and Twitter and elsewhere.

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There is nothing, no process of this sort,

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I can't find an appropriate word for it, rather than evil process.

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No evil process has ever been better documented than this one.

36:59

Let me just comment in the way that you framed your question, if I may. We need to distinguish between the

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Palestinian cause and Hamas' conduct. Yes. Not the same thing.

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To be honest, I support the Palestinian claim to statehood. I believe that my country and my people have morally failed in that.

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And I blame our present government and our present prime minister, particularly for this ongoing policy which he has sustained.

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But that is one thing, and Hamas' conduct, ostensibly in the name of the

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Palestinian cause, is quite another. Now, how rare or how common is your opinion that you just said, as far as an

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Israeli? I can say without a moment's hesitation that the overwhelming majority of Israelis would be willing to allow the

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Palestinians to make their own, so they could be assured that it would not become a hotbed or a launching pad for further such attacks, such as we have experienced on October 7th.

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That's interesting, because you do not so easily get that opinion just watching your news programs, either mainstream or Fox News or what have you.

38:41

Here's a bit of a touchy subject. You and I are from a theological framework that is dominated by Christians who believe that the current nation in the

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Middle East, known as Israel, which was born in the

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Middle East, we are, many of us in our circles of theological adherence, do not believe that the current nation of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

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However, many of us, if not most of us, would say that Israel is one of our most vital allies in the

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Middle East, and to be looking out for the benefit of Israel because of that, there is not a cry for the death of America.

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Israel does not claim that America is the great Satan, and so therefore, obviously, our alliances should be much more greatly geared towards the preservation of the nation of Israel.

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But how do you respond as a Reformed Baptist Israeli in regard to what

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I have just said about in regard to prophecy and eschatology?

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Well, Chris, you raise so many thorny issues in that one question.

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Allow me, first of all, to distinguish between the nation of Israel and the state of Israel.

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The nation of Israel was not born in the 1940s. We are well over 100 years old.

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We have been around since the covenant God made with our forefather Abraham, and I've been around for quite some time.

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The state was founded in 1948. I'm not sure that you and I would agree on this, but I'm not saying that the state of Israel is not a fulfillment.

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What I'm saying is that the Bible doesn't speak in terms of states. It speaks in terms of national homelands, and whether or not the return of a large number of my people to Israel is a fulfillment of a biblical promise or not remains to be seen.

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I am not prepared to interpret the scriptures according to world history, so we'll just have to leave that question open until such a time as God closes it.

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I don't know if it's a fulfillment. What I do know is that whatever claim we have on this land, moral or biblical, is evacuated if we are not moral or do not behave in a biblical way.

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Mm -hmm. We're very clear about that. They told us repeatedly, as Moses was born, and we find it repeatedly in the

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Pentateuch, particularly at the end of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, if we conduct ourselves according to the

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Torah, particularly in relationship to other people, we lost the moral grounds upon which we can remain in the land, and we have been twice thrown out of it precisely because of that.

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I have no security that that would not happen a third time if the

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Israeli society does not pull up its breeches and remove its conduct.

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And as far as the issues that I brought up, do you think that reformed

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Christians, in spite of even with some of them who had claimed that the state of Israel is not a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, do you disagree with the charge that is frequently made by Messianic groups against our reformed brethren who take that position, that they are anti -Semitic?

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Is that not a true hurl and slander when many of the people who have these understandings of prophecy and eschatology love

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Jewish people and strive to see Jews come to Christ and be fellow heirs of eternal life with them, but they are just in disagreement over specific biblical prophecies?

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I was just going to say, can we not have a loving brotherhood with those who disagree over these issues without hurling unwarranted labels like anti -Semitism?

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It is an emotional ploy, an attempt at manipulation.

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It tires Christians unfairly with a tar and feathers they do not deserve.

44:48

I do think that the grounds on which politics should be formed should not be eschatological.

44:56

They should be moral and issues of wisdom and national interests.

45:02

I agree with your earlier statement. On those grounds, Israel and America share more than one common value and therefore more than one common enemy.

45:15

I also have no doubt that many of those who deny firmly that the state of Israel could in any way be a fulfillment of the state of Israel are inevitably anti -Semitic.

45:32

However, I would encourage my fellow Christians, particularly my fellow

45:37

Reform Christians, to love Jewish people whether they come to Christ or not, simply because they are made in God's and they, therefore, because we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

45:52

Part of that love, one expression of that love, would be our desire for them to come to Christ. But I'm often troubled by evangelism and a friendship evangelism which is neither evangelism nor friendship, which is really renders friendship contention upon the ability to evangelize or in order to bring them to Christ for their own sake.

46:22

Yes, we have to remember that most of us love members of our own family biologically, are giving no signs of coming to Christ.

46:35

So, therefore, we should be doing the same with those outside of our own ethnic or national identity.

46:45

And that's for certain. Well, let me go to a question that had been submitted to us before through the advance publicity that we provided.

47:02

We have Reverend Greg Mooring in Amatilla, Florida, and he asks—he's already addressed some of what he asks, so I'll go to something that he has not yet asked.

47:28

But in the light of your book, Come, Let Us Reason Together, what books would you recommend that deal with the relationship between Gentiles and Jews in the body of Christ?

47:41

Well, I'd recommend trying the Letter to the Ephesians. That's right.

47:50

Any non -canonical books that you recommend other than your own? Regretfully, no.

47:59

Maybe with one exception, a now -lost friend of mine, because he's passed into glory by the name of Stan Telchin, wrote a book.

48:13

I'm trying to remember the title. I believe it was Christianity Isn't Jewish, or something to that effect.

48:21

His name is Stan Telchin, and he basically used the title of my original title.

48:32

It's a less exegetical argument. But it's an argument that will be made.

48:41

I don't know of anyone else who addressed it. If there was someone else,

48:46

I wouldn't have done it. And he,

48:53

Greg, also asks, and eschatologic books would you recommend in this sphere?

49:02

Ah, well, let me answer the second question first.

49:12

For example, the Christ in Eschatology by Runia.

49:21

It's an out -of -print book, but it's worth its weight in gold.

49:27

I wish that someone would take to republish it. Another book which

49:33

I find very, very helpful is Richard Baukham's Theology of Revelation, in which he gives an overview of the book and its ultimate purpose.

49:55

In the place where I stand, I think that the church did a lot better before John Darby forced us into the straitjackets of pre, post, and colonialism.

50:12

These did not exist before the 19th century, which is why none of the historic confessions actually take any one of those positions.

50:25

I think that none of the schools can answer all of the questions, and therefore we would do best to discard them, and simply not try to create a chronological system, embrace the various tenets of faith with regard to the future.

50:47

Well, thank you very much, Greg, and if you're listening on Wednesday, November 1st, when we intend to air this, one, a free copy of the book,

51:00

Come Let's Reason Together, by our guest, Baruch Mose. Thanks to our friends at PNR Publishing, and if you have the book, which it seems through your questions that you do already have the book, let us know if you'd like us to pass this book on to someone else, or if you intend to do that.

51:25

We have to go to break right now, and the midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

51:38

FM in Lake City requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the

51:45

FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service, local things that they of the show.

51:57

We, on the other hand, air our globally heard commercials, so I'm asking you to use this time wisely.

52:04

Please write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can, or advertisers as you possibly can, taken from the commercials, and respond to them, and we hope that you will often buy their products, visit their churches, not do any of those things.

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There's one thing that every listener in our audience can do, if you really love the show, you can simply contact our advertisers and thank them for sponsoring

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Jewish friends and family members and loved ones, but tell one and all, because this is a topic we are discussing today, and have them get on to ironsherpandzionradio .com

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Flipping burgers. Passing sixth grade. Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

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Baruch Moos mentioned earlier. So please go to solid -ground -books .com

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today, purchase frequently, purchase generously, and always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound, theologically solid church, no matter where you live in the world, lists of faithful churches spanning the globe, and I've already helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches, sometimes within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you, too.

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Please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I Need a Church in the subject line.

01:11:24

Back with our guest Baruch Moaz, and we have been discussing many things, including his literary ministry, where he translates great

01:11:36

Christian works into Hebrew and also writes new works in the modern readable

01:11:44

Hebrew language, and I hope that you are being edified by this.

01:11:52

Baruch, can you tell us also about an interesting project that I heard you were involved in, where you are,

01:12:01

I believe, for the very first time ever translating the Old Testament Scriptures, the

01:12:07

Hebrew Scriptures, into modern readable Hebrew. Is that the case? It is, but the project has been completed.

01:12:17

Oh, praise God! Yes, this was mentioned earlier that started some 27 years ago.

01:12:27

The Old Testament has never been translated into spoken Hebrew, and modern

01:12:33

Hebrew and modern Hebrew are very different than, say, spoken

01:12:41

English and King James English today, and therefore the average

01:12:47

Hebrew speaker, however fluent he might be in Hebrew, cannot naturally read the

01:12:54

Bible and understand it. And so we looked at the possibility of translation of the

01:13:04

Old Testament, particularly in Hebrew, and learned very early that if we did so, no one but the evangelical community in Israel will use it, because our translation would be suspect, and on the part of the influential rabbinic community, to avoid the use of our translation.

01:13:30

And so what we decided to do instead, I think there would be less threat.

01:13:37

We are calling the testimony, Bible translation into limited vocabulary modern

01:13:46

Hebrew, aimed at youth. So as to no preacher clambers up to the pulpit with our translation and preaches from it, we illustrated it.

01:13:59

Now it is a full translation, word by word, verse by verse, translation of the

01:14:04

Bible. The Old Testament was completed about six years ago, and for the last six years until very recently,

01:14:15

I was engaged in translating the Old Testament into Hebrew. So there was no

01:14:20

Bible in the same vocabulary. That project has also been completed.

01:14:26

The Old Testament has been produced in five volumes. The New Testament will be produced in one, and is now ready for the printer.

01:14:37

Oh, praise God. Now, I'm sure that there are people in other parts of the world outside of Israel who may have been getting their hands on the

01:14:49

Bible. How do they go about doing that? Well, there'll be two ways. If I'm not mistaken, our translation is available on Amazon.

01:14:59

You would look for the test. Another possibility would be to write—

01:15:07

And my guest has frozen. You're back. I'm sorry. At about this time, we often have internet connection.

01:15:17

That's quite all right. Did you hear me last? You were saying it's available on Amazon and the testimony, and that's where you froze.

01:15:28

All right. The second possibility is to write into publishing.

01:15:34

That's H -A -G -E -F for Frederick, E -N for Nathan.

01:15:42

They are the producers and publishers of the Old Testament, and they would be able to provide copies from Israel.

01:15:51

Great. Well, let's go to another listener question that came in due to our advanced publicity that we get in this program, since it is pre -recorded.

01:16:04

We have Gordon in Waitley, Massachusetts, and Gordon says,

01:16:11

What has been the response of Native Israelites all these years in Israel, both from the

01:16:21

Christians who disagree with you theologically and from those that are either

01:16:26

Orthodox or secular Jews? Well, with the

01:16:33

Christian community, Grace and Truth Christian Congregation, which

01:16:38

I was privileged to pastor, was the first Reformed Baptist congregation in Israel.

01:16:45

Reformed anything. We now have a pastor's fellowship, a

01:16:52

Reformed pastor's fellowship, that numbers nine. So that has grown.

01:16:59

That very much. Two of the nine pastors are

01:17:05

Presbyterian. The rest are all Baptistic. But again, we share

01:17:10

Christ. We share Christ with one another. People, we work very well.

01:17:17

We learn from our differences rather than allowing them to divide us. In terms a little further with regard to the broader church in Israel, we're very suspect.

01:17:31

As you know, Calvinists are often accused of being very un -evangelistic, but we had five full -time evangelists engaged in the church.

01:17:45

In addition, we extended a helping hand of fellowship to any of the churches at any time when their occasion arose.

01:17:54

So over the course of time, Grace and Truth Christian Congregation was the evidence of the larger body of Christ.

01:18:03

We are instrumental in establishing the fellowship of Hebrew -speaking congregations in the country.

01:18:10

We initiated a pact of the Church of Israel whereby we would oversee and support the discipline of our respective churches so people couldn't church hop from one another in central

01:18:29

Israel. Of the very significant theological differences that were between us, we did agree on the basis and on the method of discipline.

01:18:42

We were willing to submit to any, should there be any appeal from someone from one of our churches, that he had been mistreated by his church.

01:18:55

So over time, I think that it would be fair to say that we are now, as congregations, well accepted in the community of churches in Israel.

01:19:10

In terms of the secular community, we need to understand that when

01:19:16

I was converted to Christ, as I mentioned way back in 1963, there were only about two to three hundred of us.

01:19:24

Today, we number somewhere to thirty thousand, if not more. I was, for example, not allowed to undergo officers training because being a

01:19:39

Jewish Christian included me in the mind of the military authorities in those days as a threat.

01:19:48

Today, Jewish Christians serve in some of Israel's most sensitive units and serve with distinction.

01:20:03

I apologize for the mistake there. Right now, there are quite a number of men in the congregation that I formerly pastored.

01:20:16

Thirty -nine of the men are enlisted and are engaged. Some of them are in Gaza City right now in combat.

01:20:25

Congregation that association with non -reform congregation in Jerusalem, forty -two of their men are enlisted.

01:20:35

So you can understand that the times have changed. The unity in Israel is more widely accepted.

01:20:48

Having said that, this has created concern in my own heart because it could often come at the price of losing the sharp edge of the gospel.

01:21:03

I am praying that we will have grace

01:21:08

Christ more than reputation. Can you hear the sirens?

01:21:17

Rockets are shooting over our heads right now. That's the kind of strange noise you heard in a moment ago.

01:21:26

Our city, the city I'm sitting in now is being attacked. Oh, just part of reality.

01:21:33

Yeah, you don't seem overly concerned. We've gone through this many times, been in combat before.

01:21:41

I'm not in combat now, but I've been in combat, so no, I'm not overly concerned. Without you forgetting where you were headed with your answer to the listener, why, when you enlisted in the

01:21:57

Israeli army, were you considered a threat being a Christian? Well, because you need to understand that for 2 ,000 years, the church did a job in creating prejudice in Jewish minds toward the church.

01:22:15

And therefore, I was looked upon, we were looked upon as having gone over to the enemy.

01:22:23

In addition to that, we are a Christian community. We do not scrutinize their past.

01:22:31

We do not have inspections as to their background. And therefore, we are easily infiltrated.

01:22:40

For example, in the congregation that I pastored, a member of Israel's secret security forces, and he was told at one stage, the boom, was a rocket falling.

01:22:58

He was told at one stage that he would need to choose between either infiltration or the secret services.

01:23:12

And when he asked why, he was told that we are easily infiltrated. Well, we had a policy, because I was very much aware of that, that allow any discussion of military matters, even innocuous.

01:23:28

We encourage the congregation to avoid that at any expense. So he challenged his boss at the secret service.

01:23:37

They infiltrated us, tried to get us to talk about military matters, failed.

01:23:44

And he remained in his job. In fact, he's passed away since, but he became quite prominent in the security services so that one day, the chief of staff, the head of the security services, and the prime minister attended his funeral and went to comfort his mourning family.

01:24:04

So again, as far as the listener's question in regard to the

01:24:13

Orthodox Jewish reaction to what you're doing, perhaps we could broaden it and you can answer two questions.

01:24:22

The government's view of Israelis being

01:24:27

Christian and converting Israelis to Christianity, and also your congregation specifically.

01:24:39

Well, the Orthodox community rightly looks upon the Jewish Christian community as a threat.

01:24:47

We are, because one has to choose the rabbis. And so, because they are at the tits of power, they use everything that they can employ in order to obviate our limited over a decade of legal battles before we were actually allowed to go ahead and construct our own church facility, for example.

01:25:17

But that is not the law of the land. And Israel is a democratic state with freedom of religion and freedom of expression, freedom of speech.

01:25:31

And that is protected, which is why not a single one of the battles in Israel's Supreme Court when it came to our church building.

01:25:42

In terms of the attitude of the government, well, it depends on which government there is.

01:25:48

At the moment, the present government is extreme right -wing with strong religious

01:25:56

Orthodox influence. And therefore, they would be as much as they possibly.

01:26:06

However, for example, Mr. Netanyahu, who was prime minister when a law was proposed that would restrict our freedom of evangelism, he was by hundreds of thousands of letters from all over the world protesting the draft bill that was before our legislature, and he withdrew it.

01:26:33

He realized evangelicals are very naive about Israel, particularly dispensational evangelicals.

01:26:41

And he uses that to its utmost extreme.

01:26:51

That is, I think, as fair as an answer I could give to the question. Okay. We have a question from Brentwood, and Michaela asks,

01:27:07

I have heard that originally all Hasidic Jews were anti -Zionist and against the establishing of the state of Israel.

01:27:20

I was wondering how dominant that view is amongst Hasidics today, because I know that there are even

01:27:26

Hasidics that live in Israel. Well, allow me to address the term

01:27:33

Hasidic. It's more often than not used to describe all

01:27:39

Orthodox religious Jews. Jewish orthodoxy is divided primarily into two streams.

01:27:47

The Hasidic stream tends to be a little more charismatic, and then those who are known as the mitnagdim, which are the opponents to the

01:27:59

Hasidic stream. The majority of Jews are not Hasidic. They are

01:28:04

Orthodox. Now, the attitude of orthodoxy originally was that Zionism was inappropriate.

01:28:16

That is not the view held by most

01:28:21

Orthodox Jews, including the Hasidic stream. In fact, the major Hasidic stream and a number of non -Hasidic

01:28:32

Orthodox Jews are all well -established in Israel and are seeking to play as large a role in the life and in the politics of Israel as possible.

01:28:46

Well, as far as the Hasidics in, for instance,

01:28:51

Brooklyn, New York, and other parts of the United States and even Canada, those that, you know, wear the very unique clothing, a lot more perhaps separatist views than your average even religious

01:29:09

Jewish person. Are they still clinging to the anti -Zionism, or have most of them given in to the existence of Zionism?

01:29:19

The Jews you describe are not necessarily Hasidic. They might be, but any

01:29:28

Orthodox, rather than a religious Jew, would dress with that very distinct dress.

01:29:36

And particularly on the Sabbath, they would put on their best garb with a big fur hat and so on.

01:29:42

Those are not necessarily Hasidic. They are Orthodox Jews, some of whom may be

01:29:47

Hasidic. The largest Hasidic movement was focused around a certain rabbi who was decimated a decade ago and has been declared a messiah soon to return.

01:30:05

He has a very significant group in Brooklyn, but they are very pro -Zionist today.

01:30:15

I think from what they were before, this rabbi took the leadership of the group.

01:30:25

Well, that's an eye -opener. And let's see, we have another question that was submitted because of the advanced publicity, and it is from Toronto, Canada.

01:30:45

How do you recommend we get involved in conversations with family and neighbors who may disagree with us on one opinion involved in the conflict and keep the conversation moving toward a

01:31:05

Christocentric focus without being caught up in political argumentation?

01:31:13

Good grief. As if I am a fount of wisdom.

01:31:29

You have some counsel after being in ministry for so many years. Well, I would say first of all that one of the most—there would be two elements that I think are fundamental to a serious conversation.

01:31:44

The one is humility. We don't know it all, we don't have all the answers to everything, and we need to be willing to admit that.

01:31:55

And if we're there because we are evangelistic scalp hunters,

01:32:04

I'd break off the conversation and go to repent before the Lord. If we're there because we're really concerned about the individual, then the conversation will flow, and we don't have to preach the gospel at every single conversation with our mouths.

01:32:22

You know the old saying that your life's—I can't hear what you're saying—we need to be able to win the confidence, to deserve the confidence, the trust of those whom we are addressing, in order to speak to them about hard issues such as the gospel.

01:32:45

And if our approach is not the product of a real concern for the person as a person, but is naked evangelistic, it is not likely to result in a

01:33:01

Christ -glorifying conversation. When political issues come up, sometimes they are the matter of the people's heart at that moment.

01:33:15

Why avoid them? We came to a place, we have come to a place, where we're afraid to talk about religion, we're afraid to talk about football or baseball.

01:33:31

Surely we should be willing to frame a firm opinion in a gracious and helpful way, and hold to our view while being open to the fact that it might be denied by what our conversant has to say.

01:33:58

And let's see, we have

01:34:05

Andrea in Ottawa. Andrea asks, from what you have heard from people who are keenly aware of everything going on in your nation, do you believe that this is going to be a very important fight ahead, perhaps going on for years?

01:34:30

And do you believe that it will actually take the return of Christ to bring true peace between these conflicts,

01:34:38

Hamas and Israel? The conflict is not between Hamas and Israel, the conflict at large.

01:34:48

It's between the Palestinian people in Israel and Hamas, although it claims to represent the

01:34:55

Palestinian people. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has been going on for decades, over a century, and will continue until it is finally resolved.

01:35:10

The conflict with Hamas, the present conflict with Hamas, is very likely to take quite a long time, because they are deeply rooted in Gaza, not only physically, and Israel is going to eradicate

01:35:25

Hamas's ability to rule or to further launch attacks against Israel.

01:35:33

And it took nine months to get to Mosul.

01:35:40

Mosul was a city, we have not only Gaza City, but there are other cities on the

01:35:45

Strip. And the Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of territory of the earth.

01:35:54

Very, very small enclave, and it includes two million people crowded together.

01:36:03

So that part of the conflict, the battle between Israel and Hamas, took a good number of months.

01:36:12

With regard to whether or not it will take the return of Christ, I don't know.

01:36:19

I have no idea if Christ will come at any moment.

01:36:24

But on the other hand, I need also to labor faithfully so that if he delays for the next thousand years,

01:36:32

I will have still done my duty. C .J.

01:36:38

in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and C .J. asks, is it really true that Muslims in Israel are being treated in the same way as black

01:36:51

Africans, actually, I believe the listener should have said were, as black

01:36:56

Africans were during apartheid? A. Absolutely not.

01:37:02

There are Israeli Arabs treating our troops now in our hospitals are full of Arab nurses and Arab doctors.

01:37:12

The Arabs in Israel have full civil rights. One needs to distinguish between Israeli Arabs and Arab Palestinians.

01:37:31

You know, they're not all black. They're somewhat blurred.

01:37:38

There are Israeli Arabs who will describe themselves as Palestinians, because naturally, the

01:37:44

Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza are related. They have family relations, long ancestral relations that have long been lost in the past, but are still there.

01:37:59

They have cultural affinities and a shared language. The Arabs in the

01:38:06

West Bank and in Gaza, that is in what the area is known as at the moment, the Palestinian areas.

01:38:16

Let me go back a little bit. When Israel was founded in 1948, it was founded on the basis of the

01:38:23

United Nations partition plan, which divided the land between two states, an

01:38:30

Arab Palestinian state and a Jewish Palestinian state, because the land and there were to be two

01:38:37

Palestinian states, a Jewish one and an Arab one. The Jewish community accepted the partition.

01:38:45

The Arab community did not. And the Arab nations invaded

01:38:51

Israel. The result of the war, what we call the

01:38:57

War of Independence in 1948, was the Armistice Law, which was breached in June 1967.

01:39:09

During those years, between 1948 and 1967, the

01:39:14

Arab nations refused to allow Palestinians to settle, refused to allow them to develop an infrastructure, an economy, an educational system.

01:39:25

They kept them as a thorn in the flesh of humanity as a means to try to end the destruction of the state of Israel.

01:39:37

In fact, the Palestinians are the only people who have been allowed by the

01:39:42

United Nations and by world opinion to pass on refugees from one generation to the next.

01:39:49

If you think about it, after the Second World War, there were tens of millions of refugees all over Europe established now.

01:40:00

They did not have refugee status, their children or their grandchildren or their grandchildren's children.

01:40:08

But the United Nations World Relief Agency, UNRWA, has perpetuated those circumstances.

01:40:20

Israel took, in response to an attack, it took in 1967 the

01:40:26

West Bank and Gaza. And since negotiating or not negotiating with the

01:40:35

Palestinians about establishing their own state on those lands. However, Israel demands to be secured, even the that Israel be secure that whatever state was established, it would not be the launching ground for further wars against Israel aimed at its destruction.

01:41:01

While this is on hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the

01:41:06

West Bank and Gaza, where can Israel? Israel supplied until the recent atrocities, supplied

01:41:14

Gaza's electricity and through its borders came

01:41:20

Gaza's food and medicines. This is no longer the case in Gaza, but it continues to be the case in the

01:41:28

West Bank. There are large sections of the West Bank that are totally under Palestinian authority control.

01:41:36

Some sections are not. They are under administrative control, civil control of the

01:41:41

Palestinian Authority and Israel because they hotbeds of attacks against Israel.

01:41:53

Apartheid? Never. Curiosity, can a

01:41:58

Muslim serve in the Israeli army? Plenty of Muslims serving in the Israeli army.

01:42:04

I just heard an interview by a platoon commander in Gaza at the moment.

01:42:14

His name is. Wow, that's something you also do not hear too often in the media.

01:42:23

Well, we are going to add this. Just one point. There is generally Israel.

01:42:30

The Arab community is excused from the draft so that they are not forced to fight for Israel.

01:42:40

And therefore, any Arab Israeli serving in the

01:42:45

Israeli army has volunteered, and there are thousands of them. Wow.

01:42:52

Well, we are going to our final break right now, and we look at what

01:42:59

I guess Baruch Moaz has to say. I am truly fascinated by this conversation and trust you are also.

01:43:07

So please don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:47:57

We're now back with our guest today, Baruch Mahos. And we do have

01:48:03

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, what is the most discriminatory thing that has ever happened to your congregation at the of Orthodox Jews in Israel?

01:48:21

Well, I mentioned that the Orthodox community opposed our right to build our own church, began at the local court, went up to the district court, went up to the national court, and ultimately went all the way up to the

01:48:38

Supreme Court. They lost in every instance because the law our freedoms.

01:48:44

That would be the most discriminatory effort ever made against us.

01:48:51

Well, let me now ask you, how do you, as an

01:48:56

Israeli, witnessing these atrocities being performed by the terrorists with Hamas, how do you prevent yourself from hating these people?

01:49:13

And how do you remind brothers and sisters in Christ to refrain from devolving into hatred in any practical way that you can counsel all of us?

01:49:32

Because it's not just Israelis that may battle hatred against terrorists and their activities.

01:49:43

We are obviously supposed to hate their activities, but not the people. But how do you counsel that we refrain from doing this?

01:49:56

Sounds strange to you, Chris. I don't get the point of the question when it comes from a

01:50:02

Christian. I mean, after all, was it not Christ on the cross who looked down upon his killers and said,

01:50:09

Father, forgive them because of what they're doing? Are we not sinners, rebels against God who distorted his word, who have misused his world, who have lived our lives selfishly, yet he said for us?

01:50:30

That's the most practical answer I can give you. I know myself to be a sinner.

01:50:36

And I know that I'm saved by grace and grace, not for grace, you know, that kindness of God at the price of his own son, then

01:50:48

I would be no better off than anyone else. And I keep myself from hating.

01:51:00

I have to allow my anger to be righteous anger and not take me to go any further.

01:51:14

That's what the gospel does. Yes, but obviously, since we are, as you mentioned, we are sinners, sometimes is a sin that we've perhaps you have found victory over that.

01:51:31

But there are even people who battle with hatred for their own spouses, let alone terrorists. So be a common thing for at least the temptation to be there that we have.

01:51:48

Without question. And yet the only cure is the gospel. Amen. If it's a family or social relationships or whatever it may be, the cure is the gospel.

01:52:03

Now, knowing that that is an essential part of the gospel message, have distance from fellow

01:52:12

Israelis over that message. There are people, for instance, even in the

01:52:17

United States and other parts of the world who hate the idea. We believe a serial killer on death row could possibly be forgiven by God and enter into eternity of joy and bliss, tears or sorrow.

01:52:40

People who think that that's an appalling idea. Uh, and as far as your fellow

01:52:47

Israelis, the gospel to, uh, and even terrorists in Hamas, has there been any negative feedback that you have personally experienced about that?

01:53:05

No, I can't say a firm negative response to a gospel on those grounds.

01:53:15

I, before people understand the gospel and understand what it involves, they look cheap grace, but once, once they're able to understand that for one thing, it wasn't cheap,

01:53:31

God paid the price. And for another, it isn't cheap because it demands of us.

01:53:36

It's not, which is an easing thing. It's a, it's an ongoing reality where we're constantly turning away from those very temptations you mentioned earlier.

01:53:48

And so many like that mortifying our body, modifying the flesh in order to live in the spirit, in the spirit of the gospel, then it becomes a very costly choice, but one will.

01:54:08

And well, can you let our listeners know about any, uh, things that you have planned on your calendar that may be, uh, public speaking events, conferences, any other care to publicize?

01:54:23

No, um, I'm, um, theoretically I'm retired, although I'm available for public speaking where, where I'm invited and I've had the privilege of speaking at a number of conferences and invited this around the country.

01:54:38

Go, I flew from Seattle where we now live to Rochester, New York, in order to, uh, uh, help a church there.

01:54:46

And I was privileged to be able to minister the gospel there is fellowship with the dear friend from them and benefit from their affection to Christ.

01:54:57

I'm still engaged, as I mentioned, in various literary projects, writing and translating.

01:55:03

And grace in order to God and to his word, uh, as, as I produce this material and yet make it accessible in terms of, uh, uh, the average to understand the text translated or written or commented on for that,

01:55:28

I need prayer, much prayer. I need to pray more. And I certainly need the prayers of others.

01:55:35

Yes. Why don't you be for about a minute on how you would like us to pray for you and Israel?

01:55:42

Well, let's, let's think about Israel. My ultimate prayer, of course, my own people would come to Christ.

01:55:51

And that is definitely my, my primary concern. I'm concerned for their physical and moral welfare.

01:55:58

I'm desperately concerned over the moral corruption that is spreading and has enrolled as well.

01:56:08

I I'm deeply concerned about the ongoing conflict with the Palestinians in general and this present conflict, uh, in Gaza, deeply concerned for the many soldiers who are engaged, um, some of whom are

01:56:28

Christian, but I'm certainly concerned for all of them. And I'm the civilians, those civilians in Gaza that are innocent and that are suffering in consequence of what

01:56:42

Hamas has chosen to do on their behalf without really asking them for authority.

01:56:51

In terms of myself, I will be turning 80 in December, at the end of December, God willing.

01:56:59

I'm grateful to God for health and life that I have.

01:57:05

I'm praying for grace to do a great deal more before I'm called into his presence.

01:57:12

And for that, I need to be more efficient in my use of time. I need once again,

01:57:21

I need grace. And your primary reason for being in Israel right now, when you could be safe in the

01:57:28

United States with your loving wife? Well, my nation is not safe and I belong to this nation.

01:57:39

I'm also here to help as much as I can. I've been visiting families, Christian and non -Christian, trying to encourage.

01:57:47

I'm at a local hospital in order to help treat with the wounded.

01:57:53

And I'll be seeking to do whatever else I can do that would be useful to my people here and to the churches in the country.

01:58:02

I'm preaching. Oh, praise God for that. And the website that you can go to for more information about Baruch Maoz and all he sets his hands to do is themaozweb .com.

01:58:22

And I'm dying of curiosity, how do you pronounce your last name? Well, you have a long

01:58:28

Maoz. Mine is very short. Oh, okay.

01:58:34

So I was actually closer than your own pastor. Without question. Well, thank you so much.

01:58:47

And I look forward to future return visits from you to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio for more interviews.

01:58:54

I hope you enjoyed yourself as much as I did. Well, I don't know how much you enjoyed myself, but I'm grateful for this opportunity with you,

01:59:03

Chris. Thank you very much. Thank you. In fact, I remember when I first met you, it was probably the late 1980s, when you were a guest speaker at Calvary Baptist Church of Amherst.

01:59:15

I remember at the time that church became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick.

01:59:21

But Mike Gaydosh was my pastor at the time, and I vividly remember the powerful message you gave.

01:59:27

Well, thank you. God bless you, brother. And I want you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater