November 1, 2023 Show with Baruch Maoz on “Insights of a Reformed Baptist Israeli in Israel on the Current Crisis with Hamas”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this first day of November, 2023, and I am thrilled to be on the program that I have not interviewed in a long time, and I'm so delighted that I have the opportunity today when it is perhaps more relevant and timely than ever.

Today, our guest is Baruch Moaz, an Israeli theologian who has written biblical commentaries and theological and practical works in the Hebrew language through his ministry, Soli Dei Gloria. He is the author of a critique of the Messiah, Come, Let Us Reason, together with a community of Jews and Gentiles in the church.

He is a former Israel field leader from 1974 to 2006, a Christian witness to Israel, and from 1975 of Grace and Truth Christian Congregation in Rishon LeTizion, Israel. And today he's going to be addressing insights of a Reformed Baptist Israeli on the current history of Hamas, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Baruch Moaz.

Thank you, Chris. I'm glad to be with you again.

And Baruch, am I pronouncing your name correctly? I've heard it a few different ways. I've heard May-ahs recently. Which one is the more correct pronunciation?

None of the pronunciations that you've tried are correct. All of them are acceptable.

Okay. I want to make sure you're speaking as closely to the microphone you're using because you did get a little quiet there. So hopefully we'll be hearing you a little bit more later in the remainder of the program.

Before we go into the current situation in Israel where you are now, I think it would be helpful, even though you've done this before on the show, it's been so long, it would be an Israeli became a Reformed Baptist because even for Israeli Christians, a Reformed Baptist, I'm sure, is even a tinier minority than being merely an evangelical Christian.

So why don't you tell us a bit about your testimony, born in Boston, Massachusetts, and quite an interesting story about how your mother was divorced and kidnapped you and your younger brother and brought you to Israel.

Why don't you start with that?

From Israel to Christ and the Doctrines of Grace

Well, let me pick up from that. We arrived in Israel in 1953. I joined a kibbutz and lived in a kibbutz for a number of years and then moved into a city. I joined the army at 17. We were mandatorily enlisted at the age of 18, but can join earlier if we wish and be released earlier.

So I joined at the age of 17, a year and a half, a three-year military service. I met a Christian family who preached the gospel to me. I was impressed not with what I heard, but with what I saw of the impact of the gospel.

Their message, I believed, was irrelevant to me. And so it was on those grounds that I kind of defended myself against the claims of Christ. I'm a Jew, and so are Gentiles. Then His mercy brought across my path a unique Jewish Christian.

You need to understand that the Church of Christ in Israel in those days was less than my community. It was somewhere between 200 to 300 in the whole of the country. And a large number of them were immigrants.

But here was an authentic Jewish Christian of Yemenite faith, loved the faith, and preached the faith. And it was through his testimony and the challenge that he posited to me that I found grace in Christ.

I was converted to Christ on November 11, 1963. Two years later, I traveled to Britain to study. Our theology professor was a Palestine Calvinist. It was basically through the theological discussions that we held at college that I was forced by Scripture to come to the Doctrine and Covenants.

It was only after that that I was willing even to consider reading who is now my favorite commentator, John Calvin. I love him because he's so warm and so un-Calvinistic. He has not committed to a system.

He's committed to Scripture, and he's prepared to sound quite un-Calvinistic. That's what the text—and I adore that devotion and obedience to the Scriptures. So that's how I came to the Doctrines of Grace.

Amen. And was there a time when you were learning the Doctrines of Grace that you either were or were leaning toward Presbyterianism, or did the Reformed Baptist model always seem to be—.

My early Reformed influences were all Baptistic, and so it was only at a later stage that I became aware of and was challenged by Presbyterian Reformed Christianity. Over the course of years, my position has not shifted.

I hope my heart has stayed as soft and as supportive of our Baptistic brethren, but my convictions remain as firm as they were in early days.

Well, I'm happy to hear that, being a Reformed Baptist. As myself. And you're doing a lot of translation work, not only translation work, into the modern readable Hebrew, but you're also translating works, Christian works, into modern readable Hebrew.

Why don't you tell us something about that?

Hebrew Bible Translation and Reformed Literature

Well, some 27 years ago, we began a project of translating the Bible into spoken Hebrew vocabulary so that a 14, 15-year-old could read it and understand it. And that project has happily now come to the end.

I have to translate it. I edited their work, and then my translator edited my translation of the New Testament. That project has now been completed, published in four volumes. The New Testament has now been set to type in order to be published, and I expect it to be on our shelves in the next six months or so.

Praise God.

Indeed, it's a long-term project, and as I've often said, if it was the only thing that God privileged me to do, it would be enough to live for. I'm engaged in writing in Hebrew because there's a tremendous amount of Christian literature in Hebrew, particularly from a Reformed point of view.

So I've written commentaries on all but one of the minor prophets, and I'm sure you'll have left Zechariah to the end. I have yet to work on him. I'm working now on a major work on the principles of Bible understanding, in other words, hermeneutics, how to understand the Bible, as I'm calling it.

There is nothing like that available in Hebrew at the moment, and we are contemplating the possibility of translating Hermann Bavink's The Principles of God, which is published in English under the title Our Reasonable Faith.

It's a wonderful, warm-hearted compendium of systematic theology.

Amen. Now, those who live in Israel, the ones who are ordering these Hebrew works more than anywhere in the world because they understand that a Jewish person in the United States, for instance, does not speak or read Hebrew, they may have a limited exposure when they have a Jewish passport or something like that.

Is it true that it is a largely unknown language amongst most Jews throughout the world except for Israel?

On that point, you're correct. My reading target audience is in Israel.

And let's go to your book, which is a controversial book, a critique of the Messianic movement, Come Let Us Reason Together, The Unity of Jews and Gentiles in the Church. If you could give us the compelling reason why you believe this book, which I believe originally was titled Judaism is Not Jewish, if I'm not mistaken.

And I'm sorry?

You're not mistaken.

Yes, yes. And obviously a much better title. But tell us about this book, how it came to be, and what its reception has been.

Well, frankly, the issue is controversial, but it's the days of the apostles and it still is today.

Yes.

And the issue really is the sufficiency of the work of Christ. Has he done all that is our ultimate sin? And what does that mean for church life? If Christ has done everything, then surely he should be the focal point of church life.

He should be the center of everything we do. Not our ethnic identity, not our languages, not our cultural preferences, not whether we're blue-collar or white-collar or whatever other color we may want to choose.

He's the one who unites all so that his coat would be a coat of many colors. The Messianic movement places identity in its cultural overtones at the center of its church life and thereby displaces Christ, overshadows his work, and divides.

I feel very strongly about that.

Yes, it seems that well-meaning but misguided Messianic Christians, and also probably the majority of our dispensationalist brethren, seem to want to keep a wall of some kind between the Jew and Gentile, erected, that has been torn down in Christ.

Obviously, you will hear from both of those movements that we are one in Christ and so on, but there is definitely an ethnic focus that seems to be in the scriptures very clearly have been obliterated in importance.

And amongst the Messianic Jews and dispensationalists, it's still elevated to an area that might even appear to be racist. Am I making sense here?

I don't know if racism was all who would embrace this ethnic, not racial, but ethnic identity are welcomed. But to be honest, I fault American churches for their American version of Christianity, as if to say that the only proper way to conduct worship is as is done in whatever consensus of Christian churches or Reformed and Presbyterian churches.

One can worship with the tom-tom, one can worship with the grass skirt, one can worship sitting on a chair, one can worship a sing-song kind of a sermon, one can worship hearing a sermon in which our conversation is conducted with the congregation and the congregation responds.

We all have a tendency to say that, you know, it's our way or the highway. And that has found particular expression in the Messianic movement because they have attached a certain hierarchy of spirituality to what they believe to be authentically Jewish customs, many of which are not authentic nor necessarily Jewish.

But again, one finds an American.

Yeah, I'm assuming you're saying that much of what Messianic Christian or Messianic Jews, I should say, is a part of their practice are rabbinical teachings that are not canonical from the Hebrew scriptures.

Well, allow me to comment. The first is that the overwhelming majority of Messianics are not Messianic Jews. They're Messianic wannabes. They're Gentiles. And the second is that a large part of what is done in the Messianic movement isn't even rabbinic.

It's not traditionally Jewish at all. For example, they will light candles on the Friday in the synagogue. Maybe a woman could never be done in a Jewish context, or they have this so-called Davidic dancing, which never heard of before.

Certainly not typically Jewish. Not not of what is being done in the context of Messianic Judaism isn't Jewish at all. And what is is obviously a mask put on. It's only those who have already been persuaded.

Well, I am looking forward to delving more into your book and perhaps we could have you return blown program on that. But I know that today people are really interested primarily in what is in Israel.

All the atrocities they hear about daily at the hands of Hamas. And can I ask you, I know that you are living in the United States. For some tiring from your pastorate in Israel, but you returned, obviously, that's where you are right now.

When did that happen? And where are we in connection to where the crisis is currently raging on with Hamas?

Hamas Atrocities and the Moral Outrage of October 7

Well, my wife and I were planning a ministry to Israel in any case, our tickets were canceled, our flights were not available. And I, I came nonetheless as soon as I could find a flight, which is only with the Al-Al to identify with my people and to be as much of a help as I possibly can.

So I arrived here on the 16th of October and God willing, plan to be here at least 12th of December. Situation continues to be as it is at the moment, I will probably prolong my time here. I'm situated in the center of the country, but you need to understand that Israel is a piece of land wedged between the sea and the desert.

I could reach the northern part of the Gaza border. A 35 minute drive.

Wow. And do you believe that right now you and your wife are in harm's way as far as the activities that are going on?

Well, my wife is not with me, I'm in harm's way. Oh, she's in she's in the States.

Oh, OK. And there is a difference to. Going on, I'd like to get more involved in that when we return from our first commercial break that you have been witnessing, as well as the rest of the world, different responses.

The host that have been waged against the Israelis by Hamas and there are some that are staggering the mind. Many of us didn't realize the deep rootedness of hatred towards Jews that exists here in the United States.

Some of us may have been naive enough to think that that all seemed to come down and diminish with the diminishing of the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi groups and so on, although those groups still exist, but not near in the.

Beat and force. Numeric height that they had many years ago, but to see the crowds of thousands. Testing against. Real and Jews with the hatred, not just in regard to military issues, but the fomenting of hatred.

But the death of it's quite, quite startling, but we'll continue with that when we come back from our first break, if if you are hearing this program and would like to send in a question. Recorded question.

Recorded program, I should say, and so therefore, when you're hearing this program on Wednesday, November 1st, you cannot submit questions because this program will have already. But however. Do some advanced publicity for the show and invited listeners to submit questions, and we do have some questions that we will incorporate into the show.

To us by listeners. He is possible, and so I look forward to the continuation of our discussion right after these messages do not go away.

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I think that pronunciation and Baruch, how are you personally reacting to the outcry from so many college students and so many people defending the actions of Hamas throughout the United States and even more violently in other parts of the world?

Rejecting Hamas Propaganda and Distinguishing Palestinians from Hamas

Nothing can justify Hamas's atrocities, and anyone attempting to do so simply does not deserve an answer. In terms of the outbreak, it is something that has been dormant and yet has accompanied us as Jewish people throughout our history for 2000 years with repeated outbreaks.

In this case, a bit different. It's different in the sense that it's taken on a kind of a global, national meaning for young people, particularly who are eager and are quick to take on to slogans without having to think too much about the issues.

But if you think about it, the majority of the instances of these riots, these protests against the Jewish people following Hamas's attack, are foreign students, not American, but foreign students who have come to America in order to study, but are committed to a radical Muslim point of view, a kind of a radical point of view that would any Democrat, let alone Israel.

I'm deeply concerned to think that young people could be radicalized in such a way that they could, through the fog of propaganda, and be willing to support the kind of action or at least ignore the kind of actions that were taken by Hamas.

The seventh of Israel's failings, and Israel has moral failings like any other country, nothing, nothing at all can ever, ever justify or ever explain tying two men back to back with wire and sending them on fire.

Nothing can ever justify or explain shooting a baby in his crib repeatedly. Nothing can ever justify or explain shooting a Thai farm worker and then beheading his head, beheading him with a garden hoe, shouting, God is great.

This is a kind of a that anyone in his right mind should be willing to denounce with the utmost vigor. And I'm deeply disappointed in. These children. I have not provided them with the kind of moral backbone and moral ability to look at reality so that they've been swept away by this propaganda.

And how do you respond to those, not only on the left, who are tenacious, vociferous supporters of. But also there are some right leaning sources that have said that these more barbaric actions and murder.

And substantiated, how do you respond to those claims?

Well, there you'll always find Holocaust deniers. But the base, there are there video snicks themselves took and placed on Facebook and Twitter and elsewhere. There is nothing, no process. Of this sort, I can't find an appropriate word for it rather than evil process.

No evil process has ever been better documented than this one. It was just a comment in the way that you framed your question, if I may. Sure. We need to distinguish between the Palestinian cause and Hamas's conduct.

Yes. Not the same thing. Be honest. I support the Palestinian claim to statehood. I believe that my country and my people have morally failed and I blame our present government and our present prime minister, particularly for this ongoing policy, which he has sustained.

But that is one thing, and in fact, ostensibly the same of the Palestinian cause is quite.

Another. Now, how rare or how common is your opinion that you just as far as an.

Israeli? I can say without a moment's hesitation that the overwhelming majority of Israelis would be willing to allow the Palestinians on their own so they could be assured that it would not become a hotbed or a launching pad for further such attacks such as we have experienced on October 7th.

That's interesting because you can't so easily get that opinion just watching your news programs, either mainstream or Fox News or what have you. Here's a bit of a touchy subject. You and I are from a theological framework that is dominated.

Christians. Who believe that the current nation in the Middle East, known as Israel, which was born. We are many of us in our circles of theological adherence, do not believe that the current nation of Israel is a full.

Of biblical. However, many of us, if not most of us would say that Israel is one of our most vital allies in the Middle East. And. Be looking out for the benefit of Israel because of that, there is not a a cry for the.

Of America and Israel, Israel does not claim that America is the great Satan, and so therefore, obviously, our alliances should be much more greatly geared towards the preservation of the nation of Israel.

But how do you respond as a reformed Baptist Israeli in regard to what I have just said about the. Who's of.

In regard to prophecy and eschatology, well, Chris, you raise so many thorny issues in that one question. Sorry, allow me, first of all, to distinguish between the nation of Israel and the state of Israel, the nation of an Israel of the nation of Israel was not born in the 1940s.

We are well over here's old. We have been around since the covenant God made with our forefather Abraham. And I feel around for quite. The state was founded in 1948. I'm not sure that you and I would agree on this, but I'm not saying that the state.

Not a fulfillment. What I'm saying is that the Bible doesn't speak in terms of states. It speaks in terms of a national homelands. And whether turn of a large number of my people to Israel is a fulfillment of a biblical promise or not remains to be seen.

I am not prepared to enter churches according to world. So we'll just have to leave that question open until such a time as God closes it. I don't know if it's a fulfillment. What I do know is that. Whatever claim have on this land, moral or biblical, is evacuated if we are not moral or do not behave in a biblical.

We're very clear about that. They told us repeatedly as Moses was born, and we find it repeatedly in the Pentateuch, particularly at the end of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. If Dr. Sales, according to. Particularly in relationship to other people, we lost the moral grounds upon which we can remain in the land, and we have been twice thrown out of Christy because of that.

Have no security that that would not happen a third time. If the Israeli society does not pull up his breaches.

Of its conduct, and as far as the issues that I brought up, do you think that reformed Christians, in spite of even with some of them who had claimed the state of Israel is not a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, do you disagree with the charge that is frequently made by Messianic groups once against our reformed brethren who take that position that they are anti-Semitic?

Is that not a. Hurled and slander when many of the people who have these understandings of prophecy and eschatology love Jewish people and strive to see Jews come to Christ and be fellow heirs of eternal life with them, but they are just disagreement in a disagreement over specific biblical prophecies.

Can I say, I was just going to say. Loving brotherhood with those who disagree over these issues without hurling unwarranted labels like anti-Semitism, it is an emotion.

Ploy and attempted manipulation. It, it tires Christians unfairly with a tar and feathers they do not deserve. I do think that the grounds on which politics should be formed should not be eschatological, they should be moral and issues of wisdom and national interests.

With your earlier state, those grounds, Israel and America share more than one common value and therefore more than one common enemy. I also have no many of nine firmly that, uh, the state of Israel could in fact, in any way, be a fulfillment of the state of Israel are inevitably anti-Semitic.

However, I would urge my fellow Christians, particularly my fellow reformed Christians to love Jewish people, whether they come to Christ or not. Simply because they are made in God's image and they, therefore, because we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Part of that love, one expression of that love would be our desire for them to come to Christ. But I'm, I'm often troubled by evangelism and a friendship evangelism, which is neither evangelism nor friendship, which is really renders friendship contention upon the ability to evangelize or in order to bring them to Christ for their own sake.

Yes, we have to remember that most of us love members of our own family biologically. Uh, we're giving no signs of coming to Christ, so therefore we should be doing the same, uh, with those outside of our own ethnic or national identity.

Uh, and, uh, for certain, uh, the, well, let me, uh, go to a question that had been submitted to us before through the advanced publicity that we, uh, we have Reverend Greg Mooring in Amatilla, Florida.

Uh, and, uh, he asks, uh, of things, but already addressed some of what he asks. So I'll go to, uh, something, uh, that he has not yet asked, uh, but of your book, come, let us reason together. What books would you recommend that deal with the relationship between Gentiles and Jews in the body of Christ?

Jew and Gentile Unity in Christ

Well, I'd recommend trying the letter to the Ephesians.

That's a pretty good book. That's right. Any, uh, non-canonical books that you recommend other than your own?

Regretfully, no. Uh, maybe with one exception, a, uh, now lost friend of mine, because he's passed into glory by the name of Stan Telchin, uh, wrote a book. Um, I'm trying to remember the title. I believe it was Christianity isn't Jewish or something to that effect.

His name is Stan Telchin. And, uh, he basically, uh, used the title of my original title.

Right, right.

It's a, it's a, it's a less exegetical arguments. Uh, but it's an argument that it will be made. I don't know who addressed. If there was someone else, I wouldn't have done it.

And, uh, he, uh, Greg, uh, also asks and eschatologic books would you recommend in this sphere?

Ah, well, uh, let me answer the second question first. For example, the Christ in Eschatology, uh, by Runea, it's an, uh, out of print book, but, uh, it's worth its weight in that some take to republish it.

Uh, another book, which, uh, I find a very, very helpful is Richard Baukams, a theology of revelation, uh, in which he gives a, uh, an overview of, uh, of the book and it's, uh, its ultimate purpose. In where I stand, particularly, I think that the church did a lot better before John Darby forced us into the straitjackets of pre-post, uh, pre-post and post-colonialism, these did not exist before the, uh, 19th century, uh, which is why none of the historic confessions actually take any one of those positions.

I think that none of those can answer all of the questions and therefore we would do best to discard them and simply not try to create a chronological system grace the various tenants of faith with regard to the future.

Well, uh, thank you very much, Greg. And, uh, if you're listening on Wednesday, November 1st, when we intend to air this uh, one, a free copy of the book, come let's reason together by our guest Baruch Moes, uh, thanks, uh, to our friends at PNR publishing.

And if you book, which it seems through your questions, uh, that you do already have the book, let us know if you'd like us to pass this book on to someone else, or if you intend to do that. We have to go to break right now.

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Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study so often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.