August 1, 2025 Show with Phil Johnson AND Doug McMasters on “A Tribute to John MacArthur”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this very first day of August 2025.

I am absolutely honored with the privilege today of having a dear friend, going back decades now, who

I believe may still hold the record for being the most frequently interviewed guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm speaking of Phil Johnson, the executive director for the media ministry of the late

John MacArthur, grace to you. And today, we are going to be paying tribute to John MacArthur and loving memory of a hero for truth, a champion for truth in the 20th and 21st centuries.

First of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Phil Johnson. Good to be with you,

Chris. And for some reason, your voice is a lot lower than it was earlier. Perhaps you could rectify that somehow by turning up your volume.

But we are also going to be joined today by another dear friend who worked for grace to you for a period of time as the director of pastoral correspondence.

He is currently pastor of New Hyde Park Baptist Church in New Hyde Park, Long Island. And welcome to the program,

Doug McMasters. Thank you, Chris, it's a joy to be here and be able to spend some time with you.

Thank you. And joining us again for the first time in a very long time,

I believe it's been probably something like 15 years since I've had this dear friend on the program.

He will be recognizable, especially to those who are diehard

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio fans going all the way back to when we were broadcasting out of WNYG Radio, 1440 a .m.

in Babylon, Long Island. He was a frequent co -host with me back then, and he happened to be providentially the co -host with me when

I interviewed John MacArthur in 2007 and was also co -hosting immediately following John's interview when

Phil Johnson joined the discussion. But it's such a blessing to me, and I can't even overstate it, to have you back on the program after so many years.

Jim Capo, the former pastor of the Massapequa Church of God on Long Island. Oh, thank you,

Chris. It's so great to be here. It brings back so many happy memories of those very early days of Iron Sharpens Iron.

Yeah. And in fact, I believe you were co -hosting with me on my very first episode, weren't you? Yes, that's right.

So it's great to have you all back on the program. Well, Phil, let's start with you.

I know just like when anything like this happens, when somebody who is near and dear to you that you love like a member of your own family who has been such a blessing to you in ways you can't even adequately describe, to lose such a person in death is a powerful blow and a painful time of grief.

But at the same time, when we know that a person has fought the good fight and finished the race well by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, that it's also a time of rejoicing, that that person is far better off because they are in the very presence of Jesus Christ and would never trade places with us even for a split second, even just to say hello to us or something like that.

They are so thrilled to be in the presence of the Lord. So why don't you tell us, first of all, going back to your first meeting of John MacArthur and how you eventually became executive director of Grace to You.

Right. It was Moody Press that first put us together. So Moody Press asked me to come to Chicago for a meeting with John MacArthur regarding the

New Testament commentary series that they published of his, and that's where I met him. I had been listening to him on the radio for three years or so, and I'd heard him speak one time in person, and I thought he was the best preacher

I had ever heard. And I thought, I'm glad they're doing a New Testament commentary series.

He needs to be writing books. And my background was publishing. I was a book editor. And so John and I hit it off right away.

My first words to him were, I listen to you every day on the radio, and you need to do a book that addresses the issue of lordship salvation.

And he said, I intend to do that. I even have a title in mind, The Gospel According to Jesus.

And so it was that book that sort of sealed our friendship. And when he asked me to come out to California and work here, that's what

I spent the first four years in my spare time editing that book. And that issue and that book was the thing that first knit our hearts together.

But now I've worked with him for 43 years, and it's just been the privilege of my life to serve him in that way.

Yes, that book had a huge impact on me. My very first Christian girlfriend,

Barbara, who was a native Long Islander but moved to Lynchburg, Virginia, and she attended

Liberty University, and then she just permanently stayed down there.

We had a long -distance dating relationship at the time, and she gave me that book. And it really had a lot to do with shaping my own understanding of theology, especially in the realm of sanctification.

And perhaps tell us some things about John that might not be known by your average person who might even be aware of John's ministry and perhaps was even blessed by it for decades.

Yeah, that's pretty hard to do, because there wasn't a lot to John other than his preaching ministry.

In person, he was just a gentlest soul and generous almost to a fault.

And easy to get along. I never saw him angry in all the years I've known him, 45 years. Wow. Never once saw him lose his temper in any way.

And people think of him as this lion in the pulpit, but in person, he was extremely gentle.

But he didn't have a lot of hobbies. He played golf, and he preached.

And so if I would go to lunch with him or we would spend time just talking, I would never just engage in small talk with him.

We always discussed significant issues. Sometimes what he was preaching on, sometimes books that he wanted to write, or we would plan books together, that sort of thing.

I just tried to stay away from trivial things with him because it didn't interest him.

Now, one thing that I can have you clarify for me,

I had the privilege of meeting John face -to -face at one of the

G3 conferences. It was a providential meeting when he got out of the elevator, and I had gotten out of an elevator in the same lobby at the same time.

And so I obviously approached him and greeted him. And I said, Dr. MacArthur, I doubt you'll remember me, but I interviewed you way back in 2007.

And keep in mind, this is only about, I think, six years ago, something like that. I said,

I interviewed you in 2007, and you probably have no remembrance of that, but I am the host of Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

And he immediately, without thinking, said, of course I remember you, Chris. Now, let me ask you,

Phil, was he lying? No, I don't think he was. In fact, my experience with him right at the beginning was like that.

I met him at that meeting in Chicago at Moody Bible Institute and forgot to tell him while we were there that day that Darlene and I were on a lengthy trip for the month.

We were flying to several places, and long story how that happened. But we planned to go to California that very weekend, and I neglected to tell him that.

So he didn't expect to see me at Grace Church. But we showed up there on Sunday night, sat in the second row because we got there really early.

And when he walked out into the worship center, he spotted me right away, came straight up to me.

And I remember he'd only met me one time out of contact. So he spots me and walks straight to me and says,

Phil Johnson, what are you doing here? And it amazed me that not only that he recognized me after one meeting, but he remembered my name totally in a different context.

I don't think I could have done that. But he was like that. One thing that I was blown away by, knowing of Dr.

MacArthur's fame, global fame. Many years ago, and perhaps you can remind me how long ago this was, what year it was, but John's wife was in a near -fatal car accident.

And I was working for WMCA Radio, I believe, at the time that aired

John's program. And I wrote John a card,

I filled out a get well card for his wife, and I included in it a booklet,

Sickness by J .C. Ryle. And I mailed that out to California, and I was shocked to get a handwritten thank you note from John MacArthur.

That was quite startling to me, knowing of how globally famous and busy he was, pastoring a huge church and being involved in such an important ministry that he took the time to write me a handwritten note.

Do you remember what year approximately it was when his wife had that serious car accident?

It was in the late 90s. I think it was 97 or 98. Yeah, that was something.

Well, Dr. Doug McMasters, before you became the pastor of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island, and before you had later, or should

I say earlier, before New High Park, you were preaching and pastoring in England.

Before both of those things, you were working as director of pastoral communications with Grace to You, so tell us how you got providentially that wonderful position, and tell us about your own experience meeting

John MacArthur and any other kind of interactions that you may have had that nobody else would normally know about.

It's one of those things in your life I look back at with a lot of gratitude and praise to God.

It was also a very ironic and delightfully humbling experience for me to be able to serve

Grace to You. When I was first converted, age 21, in the military,

I was brought to my understanding of Christ in a fundamentalist

Baptist background, and not having any church background at all prior to that, just took on board everything that they had to say—preaching

Christ to me, teaching the Word of God, and all the things that I would look back on and see them as eccentricities of the fundamentalist

Baptist movement were, as far as I'm concerned, at the time, things that I just needed to take on board as a

Christian. Along with that came the sort of sectarianism of fundamentalism, the

King James Only issue, and some suspicion about people who were

Calvinistic. Along with that came a bit of a negative tone about John MacArthur in a lot of ways.

Looking back on it now, I think of it simply as a rivalry, that they were jealous of his platform and his influence, because if you look at a lot of the theological underpinnings, there's a lot of similarity there.

I remember sitting with my pastor and a friend of mine who was asking some questions about the

Charismatic movement and brought with him John's book, The Charismatics, and the pastor actually took the book from my friend and put it on his shelf, and I saw that years ago.

He never gave the book back. Even if John had something good to say about the

Charismatics, that pastor didn't want John MacArthur to be an influence to my friend, and so I went into Bible college with that sort of negative perspective.

But after spending some time reading the Scriptures and growing in Christ and understanding more of the doctrines of grace and recognizing that some of these things that I'd taken on board—the separation, the legalism, the

King James Only issue, the Arminian perspective, the topical pulpitarian attitude in the preaching—I was on a journey to try to find out what was the right way to understand

Scripture, and what was the right way to prepare myself as a pastor. And it was then that I started to listen to John MacArthur more and more.

I was at the time raising support to be a missionary in England back in the late 1980s and found out that John was preaching up in Canada, in Montreal.

I contacted a friend of mine and said, Hey, John MacArthur's going to be up in Montreal the next several days.

Let's go listen to him preach. And neither one of us could afford to go to the day sessions, but the evening sessions were open to the public.

So we drove from Plattsburgh, New York, across the border up into Montreal every night for those three nights.

And as I was listening to John MacArthur, that first night—I think it was in 1

Peter chapter 2—he was just opening up the text in a way that I'd never heard it before.

Boy, he just handled the Scripture. I repented in my seat, and I asked

God to forgive me for my perspective about him and my disdain for his name and his ministry.

And by the end of that conference, I went up to the person who was the director of Grace to You in England.

I was there prior to that. And I said, I'm headed to England.

I'm hearing of starting Grace to You in Europe, and they were going to be on Transworld Radio out of Monte Carlo.

And I said, if there's any way at all that I can be of assistance, I would like to be able to do that.

And so they put me in touch with Tony Ruston, who at the time was the director of the Martin Louis Jones Trust.

And Tony just threw his arms wide open to me and embellished me as a friend the moment

I met him. And after spending some time together with each other, he said, you know,

Grace to You is getting off the ground here, and people are arriving with difficult questions and asking me life issues.

Could you answer these for me? And so I did. I was doing a church plant there in England.

Tony would send me the letters from Grace to You Europe, and I would spend time on my free time whenever I had it to answer those letters.

And that was the foundation from which I got connected with John MacArthur and Grace to You ministries.

And Jim Capo, you have a very unusual background for someone who absolutely loves the ministry and legacy of John MacArthur, because you were pastoring for quite a number of years a church in a

Pentecostal denomination, the Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee. That's the location of the headquarters of the denomination, not where Jim pastored.

He pastored the Massapequa Church of God, only about 10 minutes from where I was born and raised and lived for many years.

And Jim and I became very close friends. But when was it in your life as a

Pentecostal pastor, having been saved in a Pentecostal church, a church that was at one time on the extreme end of Pentecostal behavior and conduct and so forth?

Know and love your pastor, Jim Graziano. And I think he did somewhat tone down the atmosphere of the

Pentecostal nature of that congregation. But when was it that you discovered

John MacArthur's ministry, and how was that ministry used by God to enlighten you and educate you and edify you to the point where you are today?

I don't even know if you are any kind of a continuationist, perhaps you are, but if most people were to visit

Massapequa Church of God, they would have thought that they wandered into a Reformed Baptist church.

So tell us about that. Yes. Yeah, and that was actually, you know, a bit of an issue over the years.

People would visit our church, maybe they were visiting from out of town or whatever, and they would see the name

Massapequa Church of God, and they would assume that there was going to be some sort of Pentecostal experience or environment in that church, and they'd be disappointed.

And others who would have been blessed by the ministry there, by the teaching there, wouldn't come because of the name

Church of God. It was interesting, one night we had

James White speaking there, and a man I had never met before, he had just moved out from the city, he was a police officer from the city who got a job as a police officer on Long Island, and he saw that James White was going to be speaking.

He couldn't believe it was taking place in what he believed was a Pentecostal church, but he came to hear him, and we talked for a while, and he realized we were not a

Pentecostal or Charismatic congregation. He ended up staying with us for years and became, you know, one of our most faithful servants in the church.

He was a deacon, right? You know what? Yes, he was. Yeah, Ralph DeCosta. To answer the question,

I was saved in 1987, and at that time I was just hungry, you know, for God's Word.

I was hungry to hear it preached, and I would listen. I listened a lot to Christian radio.

I ended up working in Newark, New Jersey, having to commute from Long Island to Newark.

It took years off my life, but it was in that commute, driving, you know,

I would have usually WMCA on, and I would just listen to everything.

You know, I had no knowledge at that time, no real discernment, and I would listen to John MacArthur every day.

He was on One O 'Clock, WMCA, and I listened to others, but he really became one of my favorites.

I was drawn by the authority with which he spoke, the clarity, the certainty, the conviction.

There was boldness. There was bluntness, and, you know, that really drew me, and I began to listen a lot and to learn a lot.

I began to weed out those who I realized were bad influences theologically and wasn't listening to those anymore, and, you know, in addition to John MacArthur, there was

R .C. Sproul, and, you know, and others, but, you know,

I really became blessed by the teaching of John MacArthur, and his teaching became influential in my life, first as a

Christian and then later on as a pastor.

Now, I was always skeptical of Pentecostal and charismatic experiences.

I mean, I was saved in a Pentecostal church, in an Armenian church. I walked the aisle.

I said the prayer, but I never fully embraced it in my heart, and by the time

I became a pastor in 1996, I was already embracing the doctrines of grace.

When I did become a pastor, made it known that there would be no, you know, none of the typical charismatic outbursts, you know, no speaking in tongues.

There was no prophesying and all of that, and certainly, yes, the teachings on those subjects by John MacArthur over the years were very helpful to me in, you know, solidifying those convictions.

Charismatic Chaos was an important book toward that end, and then, you know, the gospel according to Jesus was just a tremendous blessing.

It really helped solidify my understanding of the gospel, you know, in contrast with this idea of, you know, this easy believism.

You know, you receive Christ as Savior, but not as Lord, and then later on, at some point, you receive him as Lord.

The gospel according to Jesus was just—to me, it was tremendous. It was irrefutable. Ashamed of the

Gospel was a tremendous influential book in my life and ministry.

It really helped form my views on the secret, sensitive, user -friendly church growth movement. It really helped me protect our local church from those influences.

Our Sufficiency in Christ, that was another one that really helped, you know, to help me stand against, you know, the mysticism in the church and in the charismatic movement, the emotionalism, the whole watered -down preaching.

These were probably the three most influential books in my life and my ministry as a pastor that were written by John MacArthur.

The Truth War. That's what we interviewed him on, on WNYJ.

It was that book, and that was tremendous, because he said something in that book, which

I realized is what I was—it's really what I was drawn to back in 1987 when

I started listening to him on the radio. In that book, you know, he refuted this idea that we should be embracing uncertainty, that somehow the

Bible isn't clear, and we should be happy about that. You know, it's a sacred experience to be uncertain.

And, you know, and he talked about the Reformed doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture, the clarity of Scripture.

And no, not every single thing in Scripture is as equally clear as every other thing, but Scripture, on the whole, especially the gospel, the person and work of Christ, it's very clear.

And it's that clarity that leads to certainty, to conviction, and that conviction that leads to certainty.

So, and that's how he preached. He preached with a conviction. He preached with a clarity.

He preached with a certainty. And, you know, he spoke with a bluntness.

And I think when you're proclaiming the truth, you have to be blunt.

You can't beat around the bush. There should never be ambiguity. The listener should know exactly what you're saying, even if it's hard, even if it's offensive.

I can think of—there are two statements I heard him make over the years. I mean, many statements, but two that were so blunt.

R .C. Sproul, Jr. If you could, give us those two statements when we return from our first commercial break. Don't go away.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and we are paying tribute to the late John MacArthur in this interview today with Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You, the

Media Ministry of John MacArthur, and also joining us is Dr. Doug McMasters, Pastor of New Hyde Park Baptist Church, the former

Director of Pastoral Correspondence for Grace to You, and also joining me as a special co -host is my old friend

Jim Capo, frequent co -host on the old Iron Trip and Zion Radio broadcasting at WNYG Radio in Babylon, Long Island, and I'm going to conduct this interview in loving memory of a mutual friend of Jim Capo and mine, and that is the late

Al Stein. I know of no other person that was as enthusiastically and excitedly supportive of the ministry of John MacArthur than Al Stein, and believe it or not, he was a bishop in the

Assemblies of God on Long Island. He went home to be with the Lord after a tragic automobile accident.

Do you know what year that was? Do you remember what year that was, Jim? I don't.

It was probably about 15 years ago, maybe 15.

Yeah, something like that. But anyway, Al Stein's two greatest heroes, that I know of anyway, were

John MacArthur and George Whitfield. But you were giving us two points that you remember

John MacArthur making. Yes. Go ahead. Yeah, just as an example of, you know, he had a great command of the language.

Most of the great preachers do. They're able to express things in memorable ways, in powerful ways, and there was a bluntness, and again, demanded by the subject matter and demanded by the fact that we're preaching

God's Word. I remember one day watching him preach about Joel Osteen and the errors of Joel Osteen, and he mentioned his book,

Your Best Life Now, and it was just a simple comment, and he went on, but it was so powerful.

He said, the only way this can be your best life now is if you're going to hell. That's right.

And it was very powerful, blunt, but very profound.

And another time he was speaking on Genesis and creation and evolution debate, and the idea of, you know, the fool has said in his talk, there is no

God, and he said, nothing times no one equals everything is the equation of a moron.

You start with nothing, and there's nobody there, and you end up with everything. That's the equation of a moron.

And again, blunt, but very true, and very powerful.

And I think, you know, maybe that's part of my personality, but I was drawn in that kind of bluntness.

And, you know, I think his real legacy—well, not his only legacy, but a part of his legacy, a great part of his legacy is the influence and the encouragement.

The influence he had on and the encouragement he was to just your—I'll say this word—average, you know, unknown pastor like myself.

I passed at a small church, 25 years, no one is going to know my name, not going to have this long, wide influence that a

John McArthur had, but he influenced thousands, tens of thousands of nondescript pastors just like me by his example of faithfulness, his example of commitment to the truth, his willingness and his desire to preach the truth, even when it was not popular to do so, and let's face it, it's never popular to do so.

I didn't know him personally. I didn't know him as my pastor. I only knew the public man, his public preaching and teaching ministry, but that was enough, really, to serve as a great encouragement to keep the

Word of God, his truth, and the truth of the gospel central to my own preaching ministry.

And just think of how many others there are like that, whose life and pastoral ministry was shaped by that.

I mean, that's just an incredible legacy, and really why

I want to honor him on the show today. We don't honor a man as a man, you know, but the

Christ in the man and how God used him to really bless us all and to bless the church in this very perilous hour that the church finds itself in.

Amen. And after I ask Phil another question, I'd like you to chime in. If you have a pressing question for Phil yourself,

Jim, as my co -host today, you can feel free to chime in with a question whenever you see a break or hear a break in the conversation.

But Phil, to my knowledge, I can think of no one that had as much of an impact on friendly relationships and ecumenism between dispensationalists and covenantal

Reformed Christians, pastors, and churches. That's something that was profound to me.

I was saved in the 1980s. You very rarely heard of any kind of interaction between dispensationalists and confessionally

Reformed churches and pastors. And then I think the gospel, according to Jesus, had a profound impact in breaking that barrier because so many

Reformed pastors, even Presbyterians, were endorsing that book. But if you could, what are your response to my thoughts here?

Yeah, I agree with you. I think it was Gary North who said of that book that it blew a hole in the side of good ship dispensationalism or something like that.

It really was John's attack on what had been a common characteristic of dispensationalism, and that was the sort of antinomian view where you separate

Christ's saving work from his lordship and say you can have him as Savior and not

Lord. And that was a common view among dispensationalists until John attacked it, and I think it's changed the whole direction of modern dispensationalism.

I don't know why people call it dispensationalism anymore. Are you still there?

Yes. So the idea with dispensationalism was that God sort of alternates between law and grace from dispensation to dispensational.

That was the Schofield Study Bible scheme, and a lot of dispensationalists who followed that believed that the time of Moses was a dispensation of law.

It was followed by the Christian era, which is a dispensation of grace, and then in the

Kingdom Age, it'll be law again. And the Schofield Bible, in a couple of places, seemed to indicate that there were multiple ways of salvation depending on which dispensation you lived in.

And as John studied through the Sermon on the Mount, which many dispensationalists used to say, well, that doesn't apply to this era.

That's for the Kingdom Age, and so it's not relevant, really, to Christians. And John studied it and said, no, you can't write off Christ's Sermon on the

Mount as a sermon for a yet -to -be -seen dispensation. And it sort of revamped how he thought of dispensationalism and all of that.

He really scrapped the idea that there were these alternating dispensations. And so even though it's still called dispensationalism,

I don't think John was really a full -fledged dispensationalist. He was in his eschatology, but he certainly was not in his soteriology.

And that's caused a lot of confusion with people. Reformed people are typically wary of dispensationalism because they think of the antinomianism and the alternating dispensations and all of that.

And where I think the only remnant of dispensationalism in John MacArthur's teaching was his premillennialism, his view of pre -tribulational premillennialism.

Other than that, he really followed the

Reformers more than he did the dispensationalists. Yeah, I can remember visiting Trinity Book Service in Montmill, New Jersey, run by Trinity Baptist Church, that at the time was pastored by Al Martin.

And I'm almost certain that John's books were the only books by a dispensationalist in that entire bookstore.

Yeah, I think it was at the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London as well. They're very selective on what they'll put on their bookshelves, and they don't even offer all of John MacArthur's books, but they had some of his books there.

And it was an exception to their normal rule of not selling dispensationalist books.

And, Jim Capo, do you have a question for Bill Johnson? Well, Phil, what would you say—I mean,

Pastor Doug and I were discussing this off the air before we went on the air, and there are people—and it's an easy charge to throw out, it's an easy accusation to make—they say, even a show like a program like we're doing today, we're just exalting man, you know, we're lifting up a man.

And I don't think we're doing that, but this is especially those who don't like John MacArthur, who have, you know, axes to grind.

They hate this. They hate what they see or at least say is this adulation, being hit on a man.

And I think they say that because, you know, they don't like him. They don't like what he taught. So how do you respond to that, that we're just, you know, we're exalting a man and we shouldn't be doing this?

Right, well, I would say that there is legitimately a danger of man worship that we all have to be cautious about.

You know, you don't want to make an idol out of any man or his teaching, and none of them—even the greatest heroes that most of us would revere.

If you're a Baptist, I guess it would be Spurgeon. If you're a Presbyterian, it would be, I don't know who, maybe

Calvin. And we do revere those men. We do honor them, but we don't put them on a pedestal like an idol.

And there is a difference there. There's a biblical principle that you show honor to whom honor is due.

And some of these men, because of their faithfulness, deserve a certain amount of honor and respect.

And particularly when someone like John MacArthur has recently gone to heaven.

Phil dropped off, and hopefully he will rejoin us in a few seconds.

So Chris, I could speak a little bit about that. When I was answering letters for Grace to Europe, there was a lady there, an older lady, a sweet, sweet lady.

Her name was Molly Brown. We called her the unsinkable Molly Brown. And she wrote in one day asking a question about Genesis 6, the sons of God, the daughters of men.

And I laid out for her the different views, what the strengths and weaknesses of each of them were.

And she wrote back to me and said, what does John MacArthur believe about this?

And instantly her view became that. She wasn't interested in hearing what the scriptures were saying so much as she just wanted to hear what

John had to say and took it on board. And that's certainly a dangerous thing for anybody to do.

If also Paul himself commended the Bereans for challenging him to prove the things that he was saying by looking into the scriptures, and John MacArthur would have done the same.

And to speak to Jim's question directly, I think the person that didn't want hero worship the most was

John MacArthur. He wasn't the sort of guy to draw people to his personality or to himself.

I think what we're speaking about here is our love of a man who held the standard of biblical preaching and theological preaching that a lot of us are committed to ourselves.

And we found in him a companion in the battle for truth.

And I don't think any of us would call that a hero worship. Phil, were you there?

Yeah, did you lose the sound during my last speech? I'm not sure where it dropped. Yeah, it dropped off when you said, especially when losing a person like John MacArthur so recently, obviously talking about hero worship.

Yeah, it's appropriate to eulogize someone like that. If we're going to give honor to whom honor is due, it's certainly appropriate to remember what made

John MacArthur so influential and why he influenced so many of our lives.

And I think it's fine to give a testimony like that. He didn't think of himself as a celebrity, and he didn't encourage celebrity worship.

I've said things about him since he's been in heaven that I wouldn't have said when he was alive, because he just didn't appreciate being eulogized before he died.

But now I think it's appropriate to at least remember the things about him that we appreciated, and I don't think that necessarily constitutes man worship.

Okay, we are going to our midway break right now, and if you'd like to try to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away, we'll be right back.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you. The Long Island of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a

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At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

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Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit Lindbrookbaptist .org.

That's L -Y -N -Brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of the

Lord's blessing in the knowledge of himself. I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our triune

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

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Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work, utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Welcome back. Before I return to my guests Phil Johnson and Doug McMasters and my co -host

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Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Do you care to finish any thoughts that you were making before the break,

Phil, about the dangers of hero worship and how what we're doing today would not be in that category of abusing, remembering a hero of the faith?

And I guess Phil can't hear us. Okay. I can't hear you.

Oh, great. Let me just say, I think the words of caution are appropriate.

We all need to be cautious about not being men -pleasers or men -worshippers and all of that.

But I think it's also important to remember that we need to remember those who have taught us and give honor to those to whom honor is due.

But both things are appropriate. Amen. Okay. We have a listener question that I'll take because it's something that I even wanted to ask myself.

Charity in Jackson, Mississippi, she asks a question.

You were doing a wonderful interview with Todd Friel, and you brought up one of the things, the very few things in John MacArthur's life that he radically changed in his theology.

And you said that he was at one time mistakenly teaching an error about justification during a series on Romans.

Could you be a little bit more detailed in that error that he taught that he repented from?

Yeah. I mean, it was really early in his ministry. If you listen to his first or his first section through,

I think it was Romans chapter five or so, he was questioning whether justification can properly be regarded as a forensic declaration only.

And he seemed to be questioning that. And by the time he's writing the gospel according to Jesus, he had settled that in his mind.

And he actually went back and asked us to get rid of the tapes where he had raised those questions.

So I don't want to go into it and repeat what he said, other than just to say that we came to the conclusion that justification is a forensic declaration of God.

It doesn't depend on any works by the believer.

I mean, that's the heart of what we believe about salvation—that we're saved by grace through faith and not by works.

And so he issued a correction on that. Well, guess what, Charity? You have won a free copy of John MacArthur, a

Servant of the Word and Flock by Ian Murray, which is a biography of John MacArthur, published by Banner of Truth.

We thank Banner of Truth for providing us with copies of this wonderful book.

And so please give us your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

can ship that out to you. And there were a couple—go ahead, I'm sorry. It's the way that she asked that question.

I think, Doug, you were working at Grace to You. I think

John wanted to be taken out of the thing, and we ceremoniously burned them. Do you remember that?

We put them in a little thing and set fire to it. In a

Barry Kill Johnson sort of way. Now, there are two other that I can think of—controversies about teaching in John MacArthur's ministry, one of which,

James White came to John's defense against the attacks of fundamentalists who were trying to accuse

John of heresy about the blood of Christ. And there was another one that John actually admitted was an error regarding the sonship of Christ.

Can you just briefly go over those two issues? The sonship thing was one of the two issues that John issued formal retractions on.

One was what she just asked about, the justification issue, and the other was on the question of the sonship of Christ.

Is that an eternal reality, or did he become son when he was incarnated?

And for years, John taught that the sonship of Christ related to his incarnation, because Psalm 2 says,

Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee. And his argument was that took place clearly at a point in time, because it says, this day

I've begotten thee. And he was challenged on that for a few years by lots of good

Reformed friends who said, you need to restudy that again. And so he did, and realized that even in Psalm 2, where it says, this day thou hast begotten me, the immediately preceding words are something like,

I will declare the decree, as he concluded. That's talking about the eternal decree of God, that Christ is the son of God through eternity.

And if he weren't eternally son, then God the

Father wouldn't be eternally Father. And so he issued a really nice retraction on that.

I think if you do a Google search for John MacArthur and eternal sonship, you'll find that retraction.

It's permanently on the web. The thing on the blood of Christ was an artificial controversy that was stirred up originally by the president of Bob Jones University at the time, who was looking for a way to discredit

John. I think even Bob Jones University has withdrawn their criticism of John and said, yeah, his view is not heresy.

What John was saying is that when Scripture talks about the blood of Christ being the redemption price, what it's saying is that it's the death of Christ on the cross, which is a bloody death, that's what paid the price of our sin.

It's not suggesting that there's some magical or superhuman power in the literal blood of Christ, because he was pure.

He was truly human in every sense. His blood was human blood. There was a popular book out there written by M.

R. D. Hahn, where he was arguing that Christ was a man except for his blood and through his veins flowed the blood of God, which

I'm not sure what that means. A lot of people were confused by it, and when John said there's no magical power in the red fluid, when

Scripture talks about the blood of Christ, it's talking about the price of our redemption, the life of Christ that was shed by the shedding of his blood.

And it may sound like a fine distinction, but the fundamentalists for years have made a big deal out of it.

And there are some people who still would say, yeah, John's view is heresy on that. It wasn't heresy, but there you go.

Yeah, I was in a fundamentalist movement, and it certainly was a highlight, if not the major highlight that they had about John MacArthur at the time.

Not only taking on board Hahn's perspective that the blood that flowed through the human

Jesus was divine and not in any way human, they'd also talk about collecting that blood and literally bringing the blood into a heavenly temple and laying that blood on a real mercy seat.

So, in a very, almost physical way, the same way that was described in the temple worship with the

Nation of Israel. Sounds eerily reminiscent of Mormonism somehow. Yeah, Christ, can

I say something about that? Go ahead. You know, there's also a charismatic side to this.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard charismatics and Pentecostals pray over the years, where they even use it as a mantra, you know, the blood of Jesus, the blood of Jesus, the blood of Jesus.

Or they pray the blood over this one or that one, as though there's some special power in that fluid.

So, you know, I think that there's, you know, this is an important distinction, to make sure that we understand that when the

Scripture speaks of the blood, it's speaking of His death, and not some magic. Phil, go ahead.

Oh, I guess he got cut off again. What convinced me of that was, you know, as I was thinking through it, and of course, looking at the

Scriptures, I wanted to back up into church history to find some people that would have bring some clarity in that perspective.

And I went through Charles Spurgeon's sermons. I still have his physical copies of the

Metropolitan Tabernacle and the New Park Street Pulpit, and scoured those things for every reference that I could find for the blood of Christ.

And as I went through those, I was able to mark out many, many, many examples, direct examples that were saying the exact same thing

John McArthur was saying. Did you want to say something, Phil? Yeah, I think what they were trying to do, the critics, was suggest that John was in some way denying the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

And the irony of that is, I don't think there's a voice in our generation that has spoken more, or with more clarity, in defense of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement than John McArthur.

And because that was such an issue with him, he so often talked about atonement, the cost of atonement, and the substitutionary work of Christ.

Most of that criticism faded over time. Most thoughtful fundamentalists have come around to the point where they trust

John McArthur's teaching on that. Oh, great. We have Bart in Lloyd Harbor, New York.

Bart says, Chris Arnzen was referring to a dear friend of his now in heaven who was an

Assemblies of God bishop who loved the teaching of John McArthur, and his co -host today is also from a

Pentecostal background, although he has left the teachings and theology that are particular about Pentecostalism.

I was wondering if John had any surprising friendships with people with whom he had strong disagreements like that.

Yes, he did. Actually, Grace Church is located, I think, less than two miles from the church on the way.

And John and Jack, what was his name? Hayford. Jack Hayford. They had a friendly relationship for years, and occasionally met for meals together, and discussed their disagreements in a gracious way, and I think they both had respect for each other.

Yes, and Jim, what was the famous hymn that Jack Hayford wrote that people in all kinds—

That's it. Majesty. Worship his majesty. He wrote Majesty, yes. Bart, please give us your full mailing address in Lloyd Harbor, New York, because you have also won the wonderful biography of John McArthur by Ian H.

Murray, John McArthur, Servant of the Word and Flock, and that is published by Banner of Truth, and cvbbs .com

will ship that out to you once I give them your full mailing address. By the way,

Phil, when it comes to biographies, this biography of John McArthur by Ian Murray was written while he was still alive.

In fact, it was written a number of years ago before he went to heaven. I understand from your conversation with Todd Friel, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you're working on a biography.

No, no, a lot of people think I should. Oh, okay. I'm 72 years old.

I don't know that I have enough time to finish a biography. I have been collecting material for that, for whoever the biographer ultimately is.

I have file cabinets full of information for him. John's life,

I think, is deserving of a serious biography of the style that Ian Murray wrote for Martin Lloyd Jones.

That's going to be a huge undertaking. Yeah, that was a couple of volumes, wasn't it? Yeah, I don't know that John's needs to be two volumes, but it needs to be at least as thick as that first volume and hopefully as well -documented.

Yeah, so I'm looking forward to hearing word about if and when that new biography comes out, since as wonderful as Ian Murray's treatment is, it was completed years before John McArthur departed this earth.

By the way, I do highly recommend Phil's recent interviews with Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and Wretched Television.

You can find them on YouTube. He did a wonderful job paying tribute to John McArthur there.

You do have to give Todd a criticism for me, Phil. Tell him to knock it off with the

Gavin Newsom hand gestures. But I do have the joy of announcing that Todd is going to return to Iron Radio as a guest in 2026.

His board is not allowing him to do outside interviews until then, so I'm looking forward to that.

Can you tell us some perhaps humorous anecdotes about John McArthur that will reveal more of the lightheartedness behind him that people may be totally unaware of, although there are a lot of hilarious videos where John is intentionally being humorous.

Doug, tell us the Christmas tree story, or unless you have another one also. Yeah, I actually have one even prior to that.

It's not so much humorous as an insight into the man, and I think

Phil is going to talk about how studious and focused he was on just gaining as much as he could for the pulpit ministry.

I had the privilege of hosting a three -day leadership conference with John in 1993 in England, and we were waiting for dinner at one of the church officer's homes, and just sitting down watching three stages together, actually, and John was laughing and enjoying that.

He told me that was his favorite comedy to watch.

And we got into a discussion about the extent of the atonement, and I was telling him about John Brown in the course of our conversations,

The Discourses and Sayings of Our Lord, which I think has been our truth publication now, and brought it over that evening.

John took John Brown's book and put it in his lap. He had a pen and a paper next to him, and he was just writing away with what he was pulling out of John Brown's book there.

Dinner was getting ready, and everybody was moving to the dining room, and eventually all of us were in the dining room standing behind our chairs waiting for John.

He was sitting in there, and he's still locked in writing on his pad of paper. And Pat McArthur just sort of very, very sweetly said,

John, John, and nothing, nothing broke his concentration.

And we're all sitting there a little embarrassed, kind of wondering if John was going to catch this.

And John, John, and she finally just said, Preacher, it's time to eat.

And he looked up, and I think for the first time he realized he was the only one in the room, and we were all around the dining table.

And he just, you know, just very quickly got up and joined us at the table and joined the meal together with him. So that was a very fun moment for us, just to see the dynamics of their married life, and for me to see just how locked in he got into a theological truth that he was trying to wrestle with.

Yeah, that is how he was so focused. What I was telling was a time when I flew from Chicago to L .A.

with him, and he was writing sermon notes, and he was spread out on both of the tray tables, so he had mine covered.

They served the drinks. I drank mine. I couldn't put it on the table because he had his stuff there, and so I put this little plastic cup in the elastic magazine holder underneath the tray, and of course the elastic was too strong, and it cracked the cup, and the cup made this crack.

Now, I had not said anything to John on this entire flight because he's absorbed in his study, but when that crack sounded from the cup, he looked up at me, and he said,

Ah, so you're the guy who cracks the communion cup after communion. That's fantastic.

Go ahead. Chris, the story I was going to—you know, that you had asked about the Christmas story.

Shortly after our family came to California and I was serving at Grace to You under John and Phil, they had us over for a small gathering of folks for Christmas, Christmas evening, and we were there, and Pat wanted to sing some songs,

Christmas carols, around the piano, but their Christmas tree was right up against it.

He asked John if they couldn't move the Christmas tree, and he's like, No, we're not moving the

Christmas tree. We're just not going to move it, and a little bit later in the evening, for whatever reason,

Pat sent John out to go do shopping to pick something up, and we had plenty of food there, that's for sure, so I think it was a pretext, and after he left, he's like,

Doug, I'd like you to move that Christmas tree, and I was like, I don't know,

Pat, John doesn't want to move. He's like, Doug, would you please move the Christmas tree? So I'm up under this,

I don't know, thin -foot tall tree, slowly trying to inch it because it's fully decorated, and I don't want to knock any of the ornaments or anything off of it, and as I'm sliding it over, inch by inch,

John comes back in, and he's like, Doug, what are you doing under there? John, you need to talk to your wife.

And I'm assuming she had the final word about that. We went around the piano, and we sang some

Christmas carols together, so yeah, I think she did. We have Bob in Brooklyn, Connecticut.

A lot of people might not know that there's a Brooklyn, Connecticut. Bob wants to know, Phil, is there any book or sermon by Dr.

MacArthur that you believe is most unfortunately overlooked or underappreciated that a wider audience should be aware of and benefit from?

Yeah, two of them, I think. One is still in print, and it's called The Vanishing Conscience.

That's a really important book dealing with sanctification. It's very convicting, and it's one of my three favorite books by John.

The other one that I think is often overlooked, and it's out of print now, is called Reckless Faith, and it was dealing with two things that happened in the 1990s.

One was the Evangelicals and Catholics Together Accord, the sort of mingling of Catholicism and evangelicalism.

Am I still on? Yes. And the other issue it dealt with was the Toronto Blessing, the laughing revival.

But it wasn't like just a polemic against the charismatic movement. It was more a plea for discernment and instructions on how to be discerning.

What's really important? How do you know which issues are fundamental and which issues are secondary?

And because that book was key to those two issues from the 1990s, the publishers have let it go out of print, but I think we need to perhaps re -edit it so that it's just timeless and deal with the section that talks about the importance of discernment and how to gain biblical discernment.

It's an important book, but not read as much as some of other Johns books. Bill, I would certainly lend my voice to that.

In fact, I was just talking about that book last week. You might remember part of the chapter,

What are the Fundamentals of the Faith? It came out of a conversation the three of us had where I was relating my reading of Francis Turretin, and in his first volume, he's got a short little treatise on what things are fundamental, what things are not, and how can you tell the difference.

And that's an enduring question, because it's going to be generational people wrestling with that question.

What are the core doctrines of the faith, and how can they be distinguished from those things they're not, and yet, how can you hold to them and not hold on to too much as the core?

Yeah. And we have a

Cal in Dublin, California, who asks, are there any fascinating projects that John was working on that he was unable to complete because he was taken home to the

Lord? There are, and I think we'll get them completed, because the material is all there.

It just needs to be edited. He did a book called The Murder of Jesus that chronicled the crucifixion, the day of crucifixion, from all the

Gospels, and put them in chronological order with commentary, and it's a beautiful book about the death of Christ.

But it ends with the crucifixion, and I've always said it needs a companion volume that treats the resurrection in a similar way.

Start with the resurrection. Yeah, and again, Phil, I would add to that, not just the resurrection, but also the ongoing ministry of Christ and his ascension and his present role now.

I think that would be a great companion. Amen. Yes, and I'm sure

John's book will be infinitely better than Bill O 'Reilly,

The Killing of Jesus. You bet. Doug, where did

Phil drop off? Yeah, he was talking about a companion volume, and he stopped right at the resurrection.

Yeah, so there needs to be a book that will treat the day of resurrection the same way

The Murder of Jesus treated the crucifixion. And the material's all there.

He's preached through all the passages. We can edit that book and get it published, and I think it will happen.

The other project is a Gospel of John with notes for people doing personal evangelism, and for unbelievers who are reading the

Gospel of John for the first time, it'll have notes to help explain it and all that. So it's an evangelistic version of the

Gospel of John with notes, different from the MacArthur Study Bible notes, but like that.

There'll be footnotes and things. Great. Rory in Joplin, Missouri, wants to know, are you aware of people who, because of the

Gospel according to Jesus and other preaching sermons by John MacArthur, who confided in John that they were saved for the first time because they were deceived for many years that they were saved, even though their lives were fruitless?

Yes, that's the most common kind of response I get like that from people who say,

I came to Christ because of your ministry. The vast majority of those tie it back to the

Gospel according to Jesus, and I wish I had kept count of all the people who've told us that they came to Christ because of that book, but it must number in the thousands.

Wow. Wow. Well, Phil, before we go to our final break, I want to make sure that you include some things about John that you most wanted to say before we run out of time and you forget to say them, or you don't have time to say them.

Well, I guess that Phil has dropped off again, but you could answer that question yourself, Doug. Yeah, I'd love to, actually.

I want to go back to something Jim said about he described himself as being a pastor of a small church, nobody's ever going to know his name, and all of that, and what he appreciated about John was his ministry to pastors like himself, and I would put myself in that same spot.

When I first met John, like I said, I had come out of the fundamentalist movement, and I was introduced to John, actually, with those words.

Tony Rustin introduced him to me and said, this is Doug McMasters, he used to be, and then he mentioned the group that I was a part of, but we've

Anglicized him. And John looked at me and said, well, if you were a part of that group, you needed to be

Anglicized. And we had a good moment of laughing about that, but after we received him back at our house, as we started the three -day conference,

I had told Royal, my wife, before that, I said, I'm not going to talk about myself. I don't want to talk about the issues

I'm going through. I don't want to talk about the theological transition I'm making. I really just want to ask

John questions, because I want to spend these three days listening to him rather than him listening to me.

But that's not how it turned out. He sat down, and the very first thing he said in our house was, so you used to be this group, and I said, well, actually,

I still am, but I'm in transition. And that launched three days of conversation with him, just him probing my theological understanding and my theological development and the things that I was learning and growing in.

And for three whole days, he held me in his attention, and I was astounded by that.

At the end of it, I drove him back to the airport. And let me back up just a second.

Those three days that we were together, and I'm driving to and from our speaking engagements, we're stopping for petrol in England and buying food in different places, and not one single time would

John let me pay for any of that. He paid for the gas, he paid for the food, he paid for the incidentals, everything.

And when I took him back to the airport, they popped open the boot and got their luggage out of the back and was saying goodbye to them, and they started to walk away.

And John got about 10 steps out, and he spun around, turned around, and came back to me.

And he put several hundred pounds of money into my hand and said,

I love you, brother, and turned around and left. And here I was, just a young guy.

I was 30 years old in a small church plant in Stoke -on -Trent,

England. And here was a guy just spending three days talking to me, listening to me, paying for everything that I should have been paying for as the host of that conference, and then blessing me with that kind of gift.

It's a remarkable interaction. Praise God. Phil, before we go to a break, can you think of something that stands out in your mind that you want to make sure our listeners know about John before we go to our final commercial break?

Yeah, I mean, what Doug said is important to know about John, and I can say it now that he's in heaven.

He was the most generous man I ever knew. And of course, he made a lot of money off his royalties, and there are a lot of people, a lot of his critics online who talk about how rich he must be and all of that.

The truth is, John gave it all away. He invested it all in ministry, and I know some of the donations he made because they came to organizations that I'm responsible for.

I wouldn't tell how much he gives, but let me just say that he was one of the most important donors that we ever had from the state of California.

And I'm quite sure he gave away everything that came in on it.

He was a man who was entirely free from the love of money.

Okay, and we are going to our final commercial break right now.

A shout -out to Charlie Liebert of Six Day Creation, who is listening and loving the show.

Charlie's been on this program and has been a wonderful guest, a staunch

Young Earth creationist, and I look forward to having

Charlie back on the program again. Thanks for listening and showing your support for what we're doing and the encouragement,

Charlie. We're going to be going to our break now, and our email address is chrisarenson at gmail .com

if you have a question that we might be able to squeeze in. And Charlie's website, by the way, let me plug it, is sixdaycreation .com.

Sixdaycreation .com. Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of the

Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island. I hold the

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Cody in Washington, Pennsylvania, who has a question for Phil.

Are you aware of any friendships that were once broken between John and pastors and ministry leaders over the gospel according to Jesus, where those people who broke off any fellowship from John later repented and a friendship was restored?

No, not specifically. I think there were obviously some well -known pastors who disagreed with John on that issue.

Chuck Swindoll is an example. He was here in Southern California at the time, and of course, he's

Dallas Seminary all the way, so he didn't share John's views on that. They maintained a friendly relationship despite that.

They weren't close friends. They didn't do a lot together, but they always spoke to and about each other with great respect, and that was

John's style. He was not someone to hold a grudge, and he was not someone to break fellowship completely over one issue that he disagreed with someone else.

That's why he was able to have good friendships with people like R .C. Sproul and John Piper, neither of whom agreed with John on every single issue, but they got along famously.

In fact, I would think Sproul was probably John MacArthur's closest friend in ministry, who shared a similar kind of stature.

He had a radio ministry and was at the same level of notoriety or fame as John, and the two of them were good friends all along.

Anyone who's ever listened to the debate they had on baptism can tell that there was a great deal of mutual respect between them, even when they disagreed on theological issues.

It was like that even with people on the lordship issue. It's great that even after a debate, the friendship was not in any way tainted, as sometimes happens with confrontations like debates.

So I'm thrilled about that. Well, I want all of you men to conclude with final remarks about what you most want said about John MacArthur.

Let me start with my own co -host, Jim Capo, former frequent co -host of Iron Trap and Zion Radio and former pastor of the

Massapequa Church of God. Jim, could you just conclude with some pertinent final words?

Sure. I would just say

I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful to the Lord for John MacArthur's life and ministry.

You know, in some ways it was a ministry like none other in the day, not historically, but in the day in which we're living, where fewer and fewer men are willing to stand up, proclaim the truth, regardless of the consequences.

I mean, there's just a drumbeat now for tolerance and for compromise.

And, you know, preaching anything that proclaims the truth and proclaims

God's word and demands that we believe it and obey it, it is seen as harsh and unloving, and there are fewer and fewer men willing to, you know, stand up in the face of that.

And, you know, I thank God for John MacArthur, his life, his ministry, and the example and the encouragement that he has left for us.

Okay. Doug McMasters, please give us your final thoughts on John MacArthur. One of the joys

I had was answering letters on behalf of John that came in to address you and occasionally from other places.

And when those questions would come in, I'd sit down and analyze what I thought the answer should be to their theological questions or Bible questions or life issues.

And then I would go to John's materials and quote from there. And time and time and time again,

I felt such a confirmation of heart that what I was thinking should be the answer was exactly what

John was saying in all the different publications that we would have as resources for us.

And it reminds me still to remember that a deep love of God's word is significant.

And John made that focus quite often. He would say, you know, if you concern yourself about the depth of your ministry, you can leave it to God to concern himself about the breadth of it.

And I would just want to leave off the word to all my fellow pastors and church leaders for them to recognize that we had a partner in preaching with John MacArthur, and his concern for us to deepen our ministry is something that we should give ourselves to, you know, to stay by the same playbook that he modeled—preach

God's word, preach it without compromise, exalt God in his glory in it, proclaim salvation solely found in Christ, and depend on the

Spirit for the rest of it. And that's what I'd like to leave off with us. Amen. And Phil, you have about four minutes to conclude our program today with your most precious thoughts of tribute.

And Phil is not with us. We'll have to wait for Phil to be restored to the streaming.

If I could add another word, one of the things that I really appreciated was seeing

Pat MacArthur's influence in John's life. I think Pat had a great shaping influence in John because she was his closest accountability partner.

And as he said in his own testimony, he expected me to actually do the things that I'm preaching about.

And I love that, that he looked at his family as the source of his accountability.

And so, my impersonate would be, if there's any ladies here that are pastors' wives or elders' wives or any of that, that they're relationship to their husband is extremely important in him maintaining the line theologically and also ethically.

Okay, Phil, if you could conclude with your most perfect words. I was saying, you can't really understand

John MacArthur until you understand that his love of God's Word and his conviction that it's true and authoritative, that underlay everything that made him great.

It was his conviction, his courage, the clarity—all of that came out of the reality that he truly believed the

Word of God was the Word of God and therefore authoritative. And when we had his 50th anniversary, of course, we wanted to honor him because 50 years in one church is remarkable.

But he insisted that the motto for that celebration be, the work of the Word. That's where he wanted the focus.

Praise God. And you can hear that running through all of his sermons from the very first sermon he ever preached at Grace Church, which, by the way, we have in our archive.

It's titled, How to Play Church. And everything he ever preached, everything he ever stressed in his books or any of that, begins and ends with the authority of God's Word and the reliability of God's Word and the sufficiency of God's Word.

Those were themes that colored everything he preached. And that's what he would say.

That is what made his ministry remarkable—the Word. Hallelujah.

That is so true. And I want to make sure, before we go off the air, that people have the websites in order to benefit from two of my guests.

I know that my friend Jim does not have a website, but Dr. Doug McMasters, who's the pastor of New Hyde Park Baptist Church on Long Island, that website is nhpbc .com—NHP

for New Hyde Park, BC for baptistchurch .com. And I look forward to seeing you at some point in the near future face -to -face.

In fact, I know that you're planning on coming to my pastor's luncheon on September 18th, so I'm looking forward to that reunion, brother.

Absolutely. Brian Maguire and I are looking forward to seeing you there. Amen. And also, for more information about Grace to You, the media ministry of the late

John MacArthur, where Phil Johnson serves as executive director, that ministry's website is gty .org,

gty .org. And Phil, do you have time for a very quick question? Because people are bombarding me with this question.

Is there any knowledge revealed to the public yet about who is going to become the new lead pastor at Grace Community Church of Sun Valley?

It's probably going to take the elders a while to make that decision. It's an important decision, obviously. And nobody expects anyone to fill

John's shoes completely, but… And we just lost

Phil. Well, I also want to make sure that our listeners who won books today, the ones whose questions

I wrote… Go ahead, Phil. I'm sorry. Yeah. So, we want a man who has conviction and clarity and all of those features and who's committed to the

Word of God and handles it carefully. And there are many men like that out there—Doug's one of them.

And so, we'll sort through that and find the best candidate, and the elders will call him.

I don't know when that will happen. I think it may take several months. Well, let me remind you of my email address,

Phil. It's chrisarnson… Just kidding. I think both you and I are both too old to even be candidates.

Yeah, I remember the last time I think I saw you face -to -face, you added about a decade onto my age. But I want to remind those of you who had questions that we read on the air, you have all won a free copy of the book that we have been giving away today,

John MacArthur's Servant of the Word and Flock by E. N. H. Murray, published by Banner of Truth.

For more details on that book, go to banneroftruth .org. And to purchase it, please purchase it from one of our sponsors,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. And Phil, what is the date and time of the live streaming for John MacArthur's memorial service?

It'll be August 23rd at 1030 a .m. Pacific time. That's right.

August 23rd, 1030 a .m.? Yeah, 1030 a .m.

Pacific time. That's what, like, 1 .30 your time, I think. Yeah, 1 .30 p .m.

Eastern. Well, I hope that as many of you as possible can view the live streaming, and that will be available at the

Grace Community Church website, which I believe is gracecommunity .org

or .com? It's gracechurch .org.

Oh, gracechurch .org. Okay, great. Yeah, but we'll also live stream the service on gty .org.

Great. Well, I want to thank all of you for taking the time out of your busy schedules to be on this program today.

I want to thank all of you who listened. I hope you all have a very safe and joyful and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater