Steve Camp on BTWN: Reviewed and Refuted

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:35

Well greetings and welcome to a special edition of the dividing line. We're not live -streaming. We're just recording directly we've got all sorts of connection issues and the people are supposed to fix the connection issues are coming but You know how that works.

00:51

We will see how all that comes together, but Furthermore you may not want to even watch or listen to this program.

00:59

I'll be honest with you There's only a certain group of our audience that is going to want to do this one more time

01:06

Because what I'm doing today is I haven't talked about this for a while But while I was overseas

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Interacting with Muslims and Of course, I will mention every single person

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That I've spoken to in ministry overseas So in other words outside of the nice cushy little soft bubble of the

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United States Every person I've talked to about the Qati dialogues our approach to Islam etc, etc has been

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How else do you do it? Yeah. Sure. Yeah, we're we're with you a hundred percent It's only the people who live in these in the nice little cushy

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We don't really have to deal with Muslims don't even have to in fact in speaking with Muslims One of the things that's been extremely

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Well, it should be obvious But when you explain to Muslims What is being said by people like Steve Camp and Brannon house and Janet Mefferds?

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Okay, this look at you like so those people think we have leprosy. Is that the idea?

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These they say they love us, but they're treating us like we're all hiding an

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AK -47 behind our back And we're just a bunch of Blithering liars and none of us actually believe we say we believe and and they get to say what we actually believe and you know

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It's really disrespectful. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I know So they they expect us to listen to them talking about Jesus being the truth, even though they don't actually live truthfully

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Yeah, yeah. Hmm. Yeah. No, got it So, yeah black eye but again most these critics and I'm gonna be responding to Steve Camp today

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He was on the Bible thumping wingnut I started listening to it and I said I There's some there's some new stuff here, there's some stuff that hasn't been said before there's some there's some evolution in the argumentation

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And I need to respond to it But when you're talking about people like Steve Camp, you know, it's funny in this interview when it got to the point of Critiquing what

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I was doing in the mosque Steve couldn't give us anything he's ever done with Islam because he's never done anything with Islam Um, he had to go back to his one story about getting beat up by AIDS activists that's that's just it's all he had because And one of the things

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I'm gonna respond to he Grossly misrepresents me and the claims that I make in regards to Islam, but there's there's we're gonna point out just a couple of major Massive holes in Mr.

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Camp's understanding of Of Islam and his perspectives, but the point is of course in all of this that We want to provide a foundation of Encouraging believers around the world to engage

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Muslim people in a way that will adorn the gospel of Jesus Christ and It's interesting if if Steve had a response

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Mr. Camp, I you know, I'm I'm gonna refer to him as Mr. Camp. He constantly refers to me as Jim He knows that's offensive to me.

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So a little backstory there. He knows that's offensive to me. So that's why he keeps doing it

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There's a there's constant jabbing While saying I love him great. Oh, it's done such great stuff

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In between stabs, um, mr. Camp Mr.

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Camp is is if he had any kind of meaningful exegetical response to offer to what

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I have written on specifically just just two words The verbal form of Pytho, but if you want to use the substantival form

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Pais Manet is the substantival form related to the verbal form

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Pytho and Dialogue is moss from which we get dialogue Reasoning argumentation if Steve had any kind of an exegetical response to I've written him on that we would be hearing about it constantly

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He has none and he knows that He's well aware of it Even though he'll tweet things out.

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I've not they haven't given a sing They haven't given any biblical basis for this IFD thing. And of course, we all know that what you do is you take

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IFD Interfaith dialogue and You just don't deal with it truthfully

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Because any debate is an IFD any witnessing situation is an

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IFD While I was in London, I had numerous IFDs in uber cars

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The first three drivers I had Were Muslims and we had IFD So you can take that phrase and of course historically it over the past, you know 30 years

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Interfaith dialogue has simply been used to refer primarily to ecumenical ishy -squishy compromising

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People on one side who don't really believe anything talking with people. Yes. I don't really believe anything Resulting in a black hole of not believing anything

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Which of course is exactly what we said we were not doing so what you do is you just you just throw it all together and Then you can just use the term in a negative fashion even though To be truthful.

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You'd have to differentiate What are we talking about here? We're talking about someone who is having dialogue between differing faiths but is doing so for the right purposes for the purposes of opening doors of further communication and The reason

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I did it which I was wide open with which my alleged Christian brothers just ignore just won't even deal with and that is

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Opening doors to the gospel because I believe the gospel is what saves I don't think

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I have to I don't think I have to hide it. I don't think I have to give it safe spaces and I also don't think that I have to give a

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For spiritual laws, this is your list if you don't hit every one of these points you actually didn't do the gospel thing

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Because we're gonna hear this over and over again. Steve's gonna say over and over again Yeah, well, he didn't say this and he didn't say that and he didn't say this and he didn't say that now the host

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Actually caught him on this a couple of times. I said well look if I wanted to be really specific You didn't mention this you didn't mention that You didn't go in enough depth on this and go enough

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I mean we could you can you can get super picky on anybody I Mean if you look at the book of Romans, there are things that Paul said in Galatians didn't say in Romans So I guess

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Paul blew it Cuz I mean it are you saying what's in Galatians isn't important? See how easy that is

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That's simplistic, but I'm gonna give you a clear example and we're gonna hear this We're gonna hear Steve just face planting in this over and over again when he says there is no repentance.

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There's no repentance There's no repentance Did you know something There are entire books of the

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Bible that do not contain the word repentance You know that yeah

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One of them is called. Oh, yeah the Gospel of John Hmm.

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Well you you want to you want to you want to confirm that? Well everybody today

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Just in fact, you know you I'm gonna check this I'm gonna check this

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To see if you can do it without using a Greek root right live here on the air Put just put in repent with a star

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So you can come up with all of the relevant stuff and others boy is a lots of stuff in in in Matthew and Mark and Luke Luke 24 47

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That repentance or mission of sin should be preached his name on all nations be in Jerusalem the next next entrance acts 238 from Luke 2 2 2 2 acts

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Now you if you want to use Meta and then put a new after it Meta Well new

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Omicron Yoda probably would be a pair of things down if you want to check on the route Go that direction cool

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In that called the Gospel According to John But it doesn't

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How's that work? It works because Steve's artificial

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You must tick off my little box things doesn't work with the New Testament itself.

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That's why it works because you see John doesn't expect you to just look at his letter in isolation for everything else

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Any more than you should look at the single dialogue I have with Yasser Qadhi in isolation from everything else

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I've done with Islam. That's exactly what Steve camp does and he knows it and he knows it. It's dishonest.

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It's inaccurate. It's untruthful But that's what he's doing. And that's what ran house and Janet Mefford and all the others have been doing as well.

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Just isolate it Don't worry about that debate in the mosque where you talked about all that stuff and union with Christ and Imputed righteousness and stuff like that.

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I don't know. Don't don't worry about that Don't worry about the hundreds of hours of programs you've done where you've gone through all of this and you you go you play

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Muslim Videos and go through them and listen to them and accurately interact with I ignore all that don't work

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We can't worry about that Well, then you better throw John out guess

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John's not really gospel at least according to pastor camp So we're gonna hear that over and over and over again

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I thought I'd just run that search for you right while we were doing that just so you could see how that works

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All right. Let's jump into what was said on the program and I guess

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I shouldn't play it at 1 .8 because man I I get enough complaints at 1 .2 But 1 .8

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allows you to mark things a lot faster. So let's not gonna play the whole thing. I Did I just put together enough stuff that we would be able to You know just just expose what

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What pastor camps doing because let me let me actually show you something There is a

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I Even hate to show this guy's tweet on the program because he lives for this

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But there's there's a there is I call him the world's greatest internet troll. He is the most despicable man

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I know on the internet period and I cannot even say on the air the things he's said in the past that Verify and demonstrate that the man is utterly despicable

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But he is I have I have this much respect. I I have respect for a lot I have no respect this man at all.

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None whatsoever. He is vile and Just Disgusting I love us.

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It's difficult to even begin to conceive and He calls himself. Dr. James Ock. He I think he's a teenager.

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It lives in his mom's Well, probably teenagers probably in his early 30s living in his mom's basement still But anyways, you can tell

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I have I have no respect for the man at all. And again, I have reason for this I really do people from about five or six years ago know exactly why

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But I'm not gonna go back through all that and give him the pleasure of having his vileness reach represented to the world anyway

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This man is a stalker He is Imbalanced he is absolutely.

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I mean all I gotta do is follow his feed and oh by the way, I'm actually partially responsible for the suffering due to Hurricane Harvey my cult

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Can't make this stuff up folks. I'm really really can't but anyway He put up this this tweet and If we could show it here, it's

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It's comical James White's cult wants to know about Islam when they don't even when they don't even what the

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Bible says or Which Bible says it about Christianity? Now what you need to understand is what is behind this?

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Is the fact that this person whoever he is is a

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King James onlyist and so part of the issue is what he's saying there is a

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King James only statement and so You'll notice if you look look down here right there.

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There's one like believe me this guy This guy would his day would be made if he could get into double digits

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But there's one like and it's and it's Steve Camp, yeah, they're right there

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Steve Camp, so I I pointed this out and Put on Twitter a new low even for camping

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Steve Camp's response was Well, I just I was just doing that to get a rise out of you

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Just calm down, you know, it's like Yeah, sure Don't believe you as far as I could throw you.

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Nope. Sorry you you liked it because you liked what it said That was obvious and so a little bit after that we we got this and I don't know if that changes things because it's smaller or anything, but Pastor SJ Camp JW is widely known for how he mistreats people over many years

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Now I refuse I'm gonna

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I'm gonna be dealing with what he actually says and refuting it factually. I refuse to start getting into this kind of a

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Believe me if if I wanted to go nuclear on Steve Camp and stuff that I know

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I could do it won't do it He knows that He knows that I will not take that that road even though he knows

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I probably know the things he knows I know Figure that one out But I know stuff and he knows

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I know stuff and he knows I know the people who know stuff Not gonna go there But we've heard we heard that accusation before in other words.

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He disagrees with William Lane Craig Responses, okay, whatever all right, so Let's keep that in mind as we listen to the

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Bible thumping wingnut broadcast and What was

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I think this aired what last week I think maybe maybe even this week I Don't know.

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I just saw the part to think of us. I may have aired just a few days ago is when it came out So let's dive in Yeah, and and I think here's the here's the double -edged sword on that Tim and I appreciate the question

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All right. I don't look at it as so much of calling out just a good honest Straightforward question.

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So thank you for it. The reason I challenged John on that Was because the title of the video is what is the gospel?

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Now that's now question. He was in stop Here's here's situation Before getting to me

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Tim the Bible thing when wingnut said you went after John Piper and John Piper they had put out a what is the gospel video and Camps criticism is the same kind of criticism he uses against me

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To answer that question you can only answer it one way you cannot ever have a situation where you focus upon anything other than His tick boxes you got to have this this this this it that's it

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There's no place for ever going deeper Having any kind, you know, if you go to a well,

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I'm just sitting here looking at the the the 2018 g3 thing G3 is going to be imbalanced.

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In fact, I was just looking Justin Peters would be speaking the 2018 g3 conference on discernment and discipleship

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Okay Well, you know discipleship that means there's not going to be a focus upon substitutionary atonement

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There may not even be one on incarnation Imbalanced can't do that So you can't have conferences they're focused on discipleship

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It just has to be the same thing the same. So don't go deep just Just do the same thing and I'm sure that if we went to the cross church and listened to all of Steve's sermons

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I'm sure every single sermon Covers incarnation and resurrection and with equal with I bet you it's all the same sermon over and over again, right?

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Of course not He's being hypocritical. He doesn't hold himself to these standards

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Not all nobody could because they're artificial standards. They're not even biblical standards. I Mean Paul actually talked about things in Galatians that he didn't talk about in Ephesians And where's the emphasis in Philippians on the stuff that you find in Sections or Romans even

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Paul can't pass this test. Oh my goodness So they're going after Piper because Piper puts out a video.

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No, it's just not balanced. It's a there's nothing about the incarnation There's nothing about that. No, it's like Yeah, okay.

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This guy's been preaching for how many decades and yet, you know, he's he's done entire things on incarnation and Trinity and and So if he if he doesn't repeat everything in a simplistic little fashion every single time then he's just And you just sit there and go

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Why What why aren't you why aren't you applying these standards to yourself? Why can't you see how silly this is?

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But that's what we've got going on here to answer your question. And and I I have it queued up It's three and it's three and a half minutes long

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But I'll try to remember to link it in the video and he describes six elements of the gospel as One a plan to an event three an achievement for an offer five the application and six

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God Which I have no clue why he answered it that way, but you and I know he is solid on the gospel

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But on this particular video, he didn't share the work of Christ the atonement.

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He didn't share repentance He didn't share the virgin birth. He didn't share a bunch and every preacher

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I know Jonathan Edwards Stephen Charnock you name them They will have entire sermons that are not balanced

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Because there are times, you know, if you want to go in depth on the incarnation, you ain't gonna have time for all sorts of other things

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It's okay You you look at the entirety of a person's presentation

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Bodily resurrection, I think that's the issue I think you've put your finger on the issue when someone is answering a question

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And by the way, this is a produced video to the gospel coalition 2008 2008 2000.

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Yeah, 2008 and And he was asked a question. They brought him in specifically on a series of questions.

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What is the gospel? That is how he chose to answer it But there's there's a few basics and you've really mentioned them the two things that separate

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Christianity from all other religions Is atonement and resurrection and under the those two things everything else functions, you know, it's interesting.

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Well, why not repent? Why not? Well, well, I was just talking about the two things that separate from see you get to define those things

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But nobody else does Hmm the incarnation of Christ that he pre -existed in eternity past and came to this earth

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Lived the sinless life that the first Adam could not live Satisfied the law and the penalty of the law now, by the way later on he's gonna criticize me

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There is a period in the mosque where yasir Qadhi said to me most Muslims don't understand what you're saying here well

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I actually disagree with us Qadhi about that because in conversations people afterwards they did understand and sometimes people tend to you know

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Underestimate exactly how what but people understand but it's funny Steve just loves the fact that the yasir

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Qadhi had to correct me because I I'm so arrogantly claiming to be the guy in Islam Which I've never claimed But the funny thing is whenever Steve then forgets about that criticism and he starts

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Doing his later on he's gonna do I in 60 seconds I can give the whole gospel, you know what he did Even more

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Christian ease buzzwords than I used My my explanation justification was so much clearer than anything

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Steve camp gave Specifically for Muslims Steve camp doesn't understand Islam so he wouldn't know that but still

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It was so much clearer and yet on the one hand why? Those Muslims never understand what you were just saying and then when he shows how he can do it in 60 seconds

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He uses every Christian buzzword on the planet which would be even less understandable, but Again, when you're not out there doing the interaction, you know, it's so easy from the easy chair

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To make you know to do the kind of criticism that you know, Brandon house isn't out there.

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He's not out there It's it's real easy to sit in the bleachers and go I gotta know what he's doing and and so on and so forth

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That every sin by every believer that was ever to be that every sin by every person that was to ever believe was placed on Christ on the cross the guilt the penalty and The very wrath of God that burns against our sin that eternal wrath was compressed in the time

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Jesus took it. He drank the cup. It wasn't the cup of dying It was the cup of the wrath of the

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Father still in communion with the Father upon the cross But he drained that cup to the very dregs and then died rose bodily from the grave as Romans 425 says for our justification ascended into the heavens reigns and rules from the right hand of the throne of God and Grants us the faith and the grace to believe and have you noticed all this sounds wonderful Because you and I have sat under ministers who have gone in -depth on each one of these points so we understand them and we understand their relationship with one if you can never go in -depth and hence be

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Imbalanced in the sermon if you can't go ever go in -depth. None of this is gonna make any sense to you at all at all gives us the

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Holy Spirit in regeneration so that we can confess him as Lord and Savior of our lives and Believe in our heart that God has raised him from the dead

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Salvation is all of grace all of Christ all of the Holy Spirit all of the

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Father and we are the wonderful recipients of that grace God's righteousness at Christ expense

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So I'm wanting to know when dr. Piper and he's brilliant and he's passionate and he's spoken to my own heart in life

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Why is it when he's asked a question on the gospel? Why not? Just say it How many times has

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John Piper said it? With more eloquence and depth than Steve camp just did many many times.

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So oh Maybe he was at a at a conference where there was a specific focus upon something

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And so he used that focus or something. I don't know But are we really going to buy the idea that every single time you hear

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Steve camp talk about the gospel He does it in the exact same words So if he emphasizes anything more than another time, is that somehow dishonest?

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unbiblical incomplete Why not say it why not talk about who Christ is and what he did and you can get it in in two minutes

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That's that's a concern to me. So when I say on Twitter, you know, I paid him a compliment and said

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But how could he miss it on this question? So widely and in the six points, they didn't even alliterate themselves

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At least that would have been entertaining if everyone started with a B or a K or whatever it may have been He got a couple of them achievement and whatever

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I just think that why is it that when men are asked a direct question why not be playing we're dealing with people's lives for eternity and Why stutter on that?

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Why be clever on that? Why not just now see no one of the points we're gonna have we're gonna bring up a little later on is

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Steve seems to feel that Playing and baseball bat is the same thing

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Doesn't seem to recognize that there are times There are situations Where you actually

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I'm gonna sound a little charismatic here for a second. You have to actually allow the Holy Spirit to lead you

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Into how you respond to questions. I've given these examples before but There is a situation.

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I remember very clearly when people say if you ever experienced supernatural life yet. Yeah have Um Stand outside the north gate of the temple in Salt Lake City This guy comes walking out

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Come straight up to me wants to wants to talk wants a tract and You have to make a decision.

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What are we talking about? And normally you do what the tract says you have an idea You're gonna be talking about such -and -such each day.

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You have a certain direction we're going I had a

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Supernatural impression to completely change my approach and talking to this individual

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And in fact, I went for a subject that I don't like talking about It's not one of my strengths.

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It was the one subject that got his attention that he

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Wanted to talk about it was it wasn't my strength not something I normally did It was a supernatural situation

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And it was a topic that was not In of itself specifically gospel centric from this perspective

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Shouldn't do it never a time to follow the Spirit's lead never a time To focus upon something that might open up doors because you see

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The gospel presentation is a one -time thing You got to get it all in one shot.

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You can't build relationships. You can't hope for for years And if I'm sitting at a gate

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Taking a flight maybe but the fact is most

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Christians around the world recognize that the way to really do it is to build relationships and Plow the ground and So when you plant that seed you're not just tossing it upon a rock that's what

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I see Steve telling us to do Toss your seed upon a rock don't Don't do anything else.

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No preparation. No nothing It's the non apologetic apologetic the non -engagement.

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Just throw it out there and there you go No there there have been situations where I've recognized that you need to go this direction and we have to be

29:57

Able to follow the Spirit's leading in that point and to recognize that Let's say you only what you know

30:05

Are you really telling people that when they only get a portion of God's truth communicated that they they were not being faithful they failed

30:12

No, no, I reject it. I reject it. All right a little bit later on But I believe this what he's ventured in now with Islam.

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Okay now we've gone to me. Okay now now he's now He's starting to talk about me, but I believe this what he's ventured in now with Islam and dr

30:28

Khadi, especially who he calls his greatest influence in Islam and his mentor in the

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Islamic faith That's a concern as an evangelical Again why

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Why I mean I understand for people who are ignorant of Islam Where where you're you're you're satisfied

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With a surface level secondary source knowledge of primarily political origination

31:01

Fox News level I understand why why you would have a problem with that, but Why would anyone

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Seriously have a problem with learning from a scholar of another faith

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What what what is again, I've never had anyone explain this Outside of just expressing gross bigotry bias prejudice.

31:29

I just don't like Muslims Why would an evangelical? Have a problem with a

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Christian scholar learning from a Muslim scholar so that you have accurate knowledge Now Steve does not think that having accurate knowledge of Islam matters.

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In fact, he tweeted Um, let me let me see if I can find it here.

31:51

Uh, it was just just this morning actually Yeah, this was just one hour ago lie

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The more you know about Islam the more people you'll reach with the gospel in Islam truth when you proclaim the whole gospel truth

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God changes lives That is a simplistic Childish and false

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Dichotomy Because the truth is that God can use any person to proclaim his gospel to a

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Muslim anybody But if you're gonna go plant churches in Utah, you better know

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Mormonism if you're gonna go to a Middle Eastern country, you need to know how to communicate to Muslims That's just simplicity that that's just such basic you you just have to be so stuck

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Absolutely stuck in Your Comfortable little bunker in the

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United States to not realize that there are barriers

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To the presentation of the gospel and that you want to be a sharp

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Instrument in the hand of Christ That's why we train our missionaries to be able to communicate with people in foreign countries

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Not just linguistically but to understand their religious faith if Steve camp was in charge of Seminary education we wouldn't do that We wouldn't do that.

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You just send them in there and they'll just give you a good old American make America great again gospel.

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Ah well congratulations That's not gonna that's not gonna not gonna do it and and we're not gonna we're not gonna

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I'm not gonna go there so anyway Then we we press on here

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When I when I point to a debate, it's not all bad But when I point to a debate and I look for those things and and I hope people realize when

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I mention this it means I've watched That two and a half hour debate. I've done my homework. I've invested my time

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So Steve claims he's done his homework so when he misrepresents and demonstrates such utter disregard

34:14

For my own statements, then he is fully accountable. He says it right there. I've done my home

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I'm not ignorant to these things. I know They said this is not a kumbaya moment.

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I know they said they're not sweeping anything but but I'm gonna say they were anyways and I you know, it doesn't matter

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You know the stuff that goes against my position that was in the end. I just ignore all that He said it he put it put it out there right there when

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I listened to James White dialogue interfaith dialogue I looked at each of those three times and then his subsequent radio webcast shows and different things by the way the

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This time isn't me And that's that's the messenger I know what that is now that's that's an

35:04

Apple messenger thing and I think Mr. Camp was on a

35:10

Mac and People were messaging messaging him because I was first listening to it.

35:15

I'm looking around going. Is that my phone? What is that? And then I realized no, it's actually just somebody else's it was recorded and they were probably using

35:23

Skype And that's where it came from. So so again there I listened to it three times So he is fully accountable for all the misrepresentations where he ignores stuff when

35:32

I can place, you know, people have produced entire videos Where they just went back through the conversation and just let the video refute

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Everything that Steve and Janet and Brandon and everybody else was saying Love videos there.

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They work really well that way, you know So I tried to invest my time and I hope that's a sign of my

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Care for the issue and the respect for I have for any of these men Now remember the respect

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I have for these men Let's I have seen no repentance on Steve Camp's part for his identification of me as a coward insane

36:07

He has not withdrawn the lengthy diatribe that he posted back in July, which

36:13

I completely shredded just tore to shreds biblically logically

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Document on a documented basis left. No point unrefuted. He just keeps repeating it

36:27

No point unrefuted. He stands absolutely refuted, but he will not accept it will not accept it

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But but he greatly respects me though, I'm a coward and insane

36:41

Compromiser Useful idiot. I'm sorry You know when I say that someone's a brother and I respect there's all this stuff that goes together with that That doesn't include calling people insane and cowards and stuff like that.

36:57

I I Don't know man. I'm just I could just be weird, but it's the same concern

37:02

I have here if you're in a mosque and you have an imam That is not just an ordinary imam

37:09

This is a friend of Linda Sarsour who declared a jihad against Trump in the American government You know,

37:16

I've mentioned before I I actually asked dr. Khadija said, you know Getting a lot of questions about the things you said about Linda Sarsour because we see a fundamental contradiction between Your expressed perspectives on human sexuality and things like that, even though He's changed on some of those things

37:44

But we see fundamental differences between her and you And he says oh

37:51

I've I've I've expressed my disagreements with her on many many issues But the fact the matter is she's being attacked by the very same people who attacked me this is a clear instance of when when you're in a minority and You view the majority as attacking your minority that creates cohesion within the minority that This this word used to have different meaning trumps

38:18

The distinctions and divisions that would normally exist amongst you. It's well known whenever you have a group that's in the majority the distinctions between their perspectives

38:29

Can be emphasized When they become a minority those distinctions often become compressed

38:37

Because the space in which they have to exist has become smaller

38:42

And so I theorized and then he confirmed for me, basically Oh, we have many theological disagreements and I would disagree with her on many points and she knows that but The very same people who lie about me are attacking her and therefore

39:00

Do I find that overly consistent? No, no, I don't Why does anybody think that I'm supposed to somehow defend

39:09

Every position the astrakhan he takes because we never said that we agreed with one another by any stretch of the imagination

39:17

But when it says he's not a normal imam He's quite mainstream.

39:22

Actually, he's quite mainstream, which only shows that Steve camp doesn't know what a normal imam is.

39:29

I Mean, well Muslim brother is not A 95 % of the moms in North America go to ISNA or have some association with ISNA.

39:39

It's the biggest organization there is That's why you can connect everybody that way. It's real easy.

39:45

You know, it's like he's a Southern Baptist He went to the Southern Baptist Convention once you know institution a few weeks ago he was with the head of care and And with Linda Sarsour, this is a man who has taught

39:56

Sharia law for many many years Um, yeah, I Think I said that and you know,

40:03

I talked about his lectures on Hadith and of course Hadith sciences are the foundation of Sharia.

40:10

I really wonder how many books Steve has read on Sharia. I Really do.

40:16

I mean I've a lot of books I've read on Sharia have not been all that exciting but but I read them so that I would understand, you know, the various schools of jurisprudence and Historical development and stuff like that over time and where they differ where they have similarities

40:33

And you have to understand something in the 1 ,400 year existence of Islam It's never referred to itself as a religion

40:44

Does not exist When I heard that first of all,

40:51

I could not I I Couldn't see the connection. I still can't really see the connection.

40:58

I mean, he's he goes on to talk about Sharia But I just I just sat there going how do you respond to something like that because any

41:10

Muslim listening to that is just going Really and so I I went on Twitter And and I I Know that he hasn't blocked me.

41:24

He's blocked almost everybody else, but he hasn't blocked me and I said so so Steve Do you stand by the statement?

41:33

Did good could you explain what you meant by that? Do you stand by the statement that Islam? never identifies itself in 1 ,400 years and never identify itself as religion because If you've watched this program there are a number of times we've played

41:51

Segments from alleged former Christians that have appeared on what what program it's called the

41:57

Dean show But it's spelled d e n it's not that you know, the host isn't named

42:05

Dean d e a n like Dean Martin So, why is it called the

42:10

Dean show? because Dean means religion and Dean in its various forms as an

42:20

Arabic word appears over 100 times in the text of the

42:25

Quran and it's not like this should be a Revelation to anyone

42:35

Because I bet sadly I bet if if Steve was just you just caught him out to worry, you know, you took his cell phone from so you couldn't

42:47

Google anything and You said Steve Give me a verse from the

42:53

Quran. It'd be nice if it was some of those verses that are actually relevant to witnessing situations

43:05

Does Steve know what surah 4171 is about how about surah 4157 that one's really important How about which portion of the

43:14

Quran Has as its background the encounter between the Christians from Najran and Muhammad toward the end of his life

43:21

It's really important in regards to Islam's view of Jesus and things like which part of the Quran is that about?

43:29

Where's the section that gives us the only place where the three are mentioned say not three

43:37

What what's the only verse that gives us three in the Quran I don't think

43:43

Steve knows But I have a Sneaking hunch that the one ayah

43:54

That He probably would know Because it's repeated all the time in the circles in which he travels sir 929

44:05

Sir 929 isn't isn't this the one? fight those who do not believe in the law in the last day and You do not consider unlawful what

44:13

Allah and his messenger have made unlawful. Oh and then it says and who do not adopt the

44:23

Religion of truth From those who were given the scripture fight until they give the jizya willingly while they are humbled.

44:32

Oh Religion of Dean the that's that's Islam so the the one verse he probably would know is

44:40

Actually where the Quran identifies Islam as a Dean which is religion so I I didn't force him to say these words, but And you have to understand something in the fourteen hundred year existence of Islam It's never referred to itself as a religion

45:01

Does not exist Yeah, except for a hundred times in crop and by a thousand times in the day

45:08

There you go, I tried to get him to explain that and Even though he's been active on Twitter since I tweeted him

45:18

And even I even asked other people because later on he's gonna make the accusation Yasir Qadhi has led acts of jihad and So I was like, hey, could you document that?

45:29

Yasir Qadhi is American citizen you are Accusing him of illegal actions. Maybe you could you know document that in some meaningful fashion but he hasn't

45:40

He hasn't responded. So we can't we can't give you his I would have given you what he said

45:46

The fact matter is just wrong. He just doesn't know what he's talking about And that that's all there stood but he would be

45:53

I believe shocked at the cozying up that we're seeing by in this case

45:58

Dr. White. All right, Jim. So with imams and with the Muslim community, that's a concern.

46:04

Okay, so cozying up Cozying up People who want to see hatred exist between Muslims and Christians Will consider any

46:18

Sign to respect. Remember Brandon House in that first program as soon as I got back from Europe Remember that first program right toward the end of the first hour.

46:26

They were playing my introduction Which which

46:33

Template here Played my introduction. He actually is going to play here in a second

46:43

Where I said Introducing Yasir Qadhi Said nice things about Yasir Qadhi.

46:49

Oh, remember he could not control himself You can't there there is no

46:55

Muslim worthy of saying anything That there's no Muslim worthy of a compliment of being respected nothing from their perspective.

47:04

These people are Filled with animosity filled with animosity.

47:10

It's just it's just unbelievable So they consider that cozying up.

47:17

I Consider it opening the door For the gospel of Jesus Christ now who's gonna listen

47:28

To a presentation on the deity of Christ is

47:34

Yasir Qadhi gonna listen to a presentation deed of Christ from Steve Camp or from me because for example

47:44

I posted I reposted someone reminded me of a video that I did what two and a half years ago where I actually

47:51

Responded to comments that Yasir Qadhi made in the Memphis Islamic Center about the

47:57

Council of Nicaea and the canon of scripture I Corrected him What I didn't mention the video because it happened afterwards obviously is

48:06

I sent in the link and And Now if if I approached him the way that Pastor Camp would approach him.

48:17

Do you think he'd even watch it? Nope Because I've approached him from a position of learning and Uncompromising statement from my own side.

48:34

He listened to me and he said whoops. Thanks Didn't know. I'll I'll make the correction, you know, that's sort of just seems like common sense, but Common sense gets lost among some people for some reason interfaith dialogue and You know the we're gonna we're gonna disagree on some of this but I Think it's important to point out and it's not pragmatic

49:06

But I don't justify what dr. White did but I think it's clear we need to make it clear at least

49:13

I I'm convinced and I think you are too That doctor it again. It doesn't justify what he did, but his intentions are to win

49:22

Muslims to Christ That's his intention. Do you agree? I Don't agree with that.

49:29

I Don't agree with that. I Don't agree with that It's my stated statement

49:37

Any person who's watched You know, I've lost track. We're getting close to 50

49:43

Debates now with Muslims around the world pretty close because we had two on this last trip

49:50

You know the funny thing, you know the sad thing in here Christians overseas

49:59

Fully understand my motivations Muslims Overseas and in the

50:07

United States fully understand my motivations Who doesn't get it these guys why?

50:21

Prejudice bias Something yeah

50:26

Yeah, the Muslims get it the Muslims understand it Steve camp can't

50:32

Can't won't he could would have only a few years ago now now won't happen

50:45

Sad very very sad. I press forward if we do what we can if we do Okay, now let me

50:51

I just want that they played once again, which is nice Melt me same. Let me just Emphasize a couple things from it if we do what we if we do what

51:01

I hope happens this evening We're gonna do something absolutely unique It hardly ever happens and that is two communities where unfortunately, there is a lot of fear on both sides.

51:11

Okay, is that true? Steve camp wouldn't know because he doesn't interact with communities. I Do and it's true

51:18

There's a lot of fear on both sides Perfect love casts out fear. That's a biblical statement.

51:24

I think If you're fearful of the Muslim people do you truly love them

51:31

Can your love for them survive the fear you have that may be politically based something like that See, I made the specific statement.

51:39

There is a lot of fear. There's fear from the Muslims. They feel and they're in the south They've got people driving by him.

51:47

Tell him to go back where they came from Things like that there's a lot of fear which means there's not open dialogue and communication.

51:55

That is the fertile ground for The gospel and what

52:02

I want to see happen is I want to see that change I Want to see that change? There is a lot of Misunderstanding.

52:09

Yeah, we just documented that and Steve camps for Never called self religion except for over a hundred times in the

52:16

Quran and minimize thousands of times in both sides And as a Christian, I want to see doors opened as a

52:23

Christian I want you as if you are a Christian here this evening To not have fear of the

52:29

Muslim people but to have love for the Muslim people. Oh Terrible and And pastor camp will say he did he loves the

52:39

Muslim people but not enough to accurately represent not enough to actually recognize that we do actually have

52:51

Common alities He's gonna say later, I don't know what a monotheism divine revelation law eternal punishment

53:05

You can't deny those things The only way to discuss the differences is to recognize where the agreements are so you can see what the disagreements are

53:13

If you say we disagree about everything you might as well say the sky is green. It doesn't make any sense

53:19

This these are these can only be the words of people who are living in a fantasy world where they never interact with this other side

53:26

I Mean you can't live like this and actually sit across the table and talk to a

53:33

Muslim It's impossible. They're not doing it clearly

53:39

You know I want the Muslim people to understand that we care and That we want to have dialogue and that we're not seeking this evening to sweep our differences under the rug and say they don't matter

53:50

Mmm, I don't know how many how often how much clearer? What did

53:56

I need to be? Dr. Khadi cannot present an Islam that is just simply one view amongst many

54:03

I Believe in divine revelation. He believes in divine revelation. Oh, that's one of those things were another thing where we actually

54:10

Have a commonality which means then we can discuss the differences in our understanding of divine revelation

54:17

But if you're not willing to recognize that we both believe in divine revelation that makes us different than a bunch of other people

54:22

If you don't recognize that then you can never discuss what we've discussed in this program over and over and over again

54:28

And that is the difference between the Islamic understanding of divine revelation as a tablet in heaven

54:38

Transcribed in essence into the angel Gabriel and then down to Muhammad sort of like an mp3 transmission thing

54:44

That's different than what we understand men spoke from God as they're carried along by the Holy Spirit And this is vitally important to be able to discuss the objections that Muslims have which pastor camp says we shouldn't actually have to do that Don't worry about those things

55:00

Don't worry about those things. Well, I do because I actually want to reach those Muslims And it really makes me wonder

55:09

Well, I'll just leave it there. So how do we get along? How do our communities talk to one another?

55:14

How do our communities talk to one another? Evidently, we're not supposed to. No, we can't have no no, no, no, no

55:20

No, just see you're just you're just like them liberals. You just want to just get along Well the first time

55:29

I debated a Muslim as a Muslim debate 2006

55:36

Biola University The moderator of the debate said something

55:41

I'll never forget at the beginning of the debate because it was really true He said if you can't if two communities

55:50

Who have fundamental disagreements are not allowed to argue Then all they can do is fight.

55:58

He meant fight in a negative violent sense He was saying what we're doing here is a good thing he was right

56:05

He was right and I submit to you that the non Interaction non showing respect non

56:15

Doing firsthand study perspective of pastor camp and his ilk

56:22

Produces not only ill feelings But fundamentally undercuts the work of the gospel amongst

56:27

Muslims That's the accusation I'm making and I stand by it I stand by it

56:34

I'll defend it and Pastor camp cannot refute it The sad fact the matter is that conversation isn't happening and I want to start tonight.

56:44

It isn't happening It ain't happening with Steve camp. Is it? Show me where it's happening

56:50

Give me some names And I want to start here. So if you're a praying person pray now,

56:57

I got oh They just rake me over the coals for that. Oh How dare you say that you're saying they should pray to Allah If you're a praying person pray that you'd have understanding this evening

57:08

Well, that's a terrible thing to ask people to do you're suggesting they commit idolatry. Oh Man really

57:19

So you you would not say to people if you're a praying person Pray for understanding this evening.

57:24

So you've never you've never in preaching the gospel said to someone Pray to God to open your heart and mind.

57:32

Oh, I bet it better not That's a bill them Puritans did that but that was different context is not them.

57:37

They're Muslims Onion onion. Yeah, we will have understanding that as if you're a

57:43

Christian I want you to hear what this man has to say I want you to understand why he believes the things he does what his life is like here in the

57:50

United States as a Muslim and I want you to hear especially when he talks about what Islam is and what it is not and who speaks for Islam And all these types of things.

57:57

I want you to hear so that we can have better communication with one another That's why we're here this evening. I hope that's why you've come here this evening

58:05

Better communication with one another. Why do you think I want that to happen? I've told the stories about what happened after Right.

58:15

Well, well Steve's never mentioned that no He says he's listened to the programs have done, but he's never mentioned, you know, like that Conversation about the

58:24

Council of Nicaea Deity of Christ and think that see that's what I mean by opening doors and having communication

58:31

Because I believe that when that happens what I've got to offer The Holy Spirit will make to come alive in the hearts of his elect people and he'll draw on himself.

58:40

That's called evangelism That's called it. So we're doing we're yep. That's what you do That's what that's what

58:46

I was talking about And you might say well, that's the high interpret it I don't care how you interpret it

58:52

I am the infallible interpreter of my intentions, so deep deep deep deep deep we are almost well,

59:06

I Should probably speed it up when we go over there to have refreshments The Christians and the

59:12

Muslims together will be able to have conversation And many of the misunderstandings that separate us right now will be laid aside

59:19

There won't be any compromise because we both believe very firmly in what we believe in what we profess now

59:25

Why would I want misconceptions to be laid aside? because the vast majority of conversations that take place between Christians and Muslims are

59:35

Wasted because the Christian doesn't understand what the Muslim believes and the Muslim doesn't understand what the

59:41

Christian believes and they're wasting their time If you can get the Misunderstandings out of the way guess what can happen

59:49

You can actually focus upon what matters That's the whole purpose Yes That's uh, well

59:59

There you go. There's there's the reasons differences. He sought out qadi kindred spirit Similarities as well as what divides us and i'm still interested to hear what makes us similar and uh

01:00:10

Mentioned it We both believe in divine revelation. We're both monotheists We believe there is a god who is personal who has revealed himself who is going to judge mankind

01:00:21

Uh who created mankind and that there is an eternal hell and there's going to be a judgment. There's something called qadir

01:00:26

I'm, not sure if you even know what qadir is, but there is something called qadir And so we need to know if you don't understand that qadir exists

01:00:32

Then you can't differentiate qadir from the christian concept of predestination election divine sovereignty and decree

01:00:38

So there's all sorts of these types of things if you're gonna if you're actually going to enter into this stuff There's all sorts of things where you have to understand what the similarities are so you can make proper distinctions 101 absolutely 101 level stuff here um and the and what bothered me is that When dr.

01:01:00

White points out the end game of of the evening It's so that we can better get along and have better communication.

01:01:07

How can we together get along? that means That what

01:01:12

I want to see happening tim And I really didn't understand your objections But what

01:01:18

I want to see happening Is what happened after these dialogues? I'm, not talking about get along as in compromise neither one of us ever mentioned anything about it

01:01:30

But if you're not getting along In the sense of showing respect for being a good neighbor to someone else

01:01:38

Being concerned about someone else's well -being how you're ever going to get to the point of actually

01:01:44

Presenting the gospel to them in a meaningful fashion that they can understand not that fulfills your tick box.

01:01:51

Well, I told them So i've fulfilled i've discharged I can hold them at arms distance

01:01:57

You just stay out there because you're I don't like you. You're weird I don't consider that evangelism

01:02:04

If you just put out your little tick boxes Well, I handed them a track that the track said everything needed to be said. So there you go.

01:02:09

That's it Um, if you think that's enough then I I I really have to wonder

01:02:17

Uh about your understanding of the love of christ compels us compels us

01:02:22

To keep you at arm's length. That's not that's not what it meant That's not what it meant

01:02:28

Yeah, we need to be able to get along So that we can have meaningful communication focused upon what's really important Yeah, that's that's given isn't it?

01:02:39

Isn't it? Do we really have to argue about this? I I thought most of this stuff was pretty much self -evident

01:02:46

Um, I thought the most shocking thing he said to the entire audience if you're a praying person here tonight pray Yeah, so there there was there was that objection i've already

01:02:55

Addressed that of I call it the rodney king Theology can't we all get along?

01:03:01

Uh refreshments punching cookies conversations Here was the one thing that was missing gospel conversations opening door conversations

01:03:12

Relationship conversations see there's there's there's there's no ground for any muslim to accept any kind of idea that Steve camp wants to have a meaningful relationship because he doesn't

01:03:25

He doesn't he just wants you to hear what he has to say Uh, same the same, you know, same thing with keith thompson.

01:03:31

Just you just proclaim it then walk away That's just that's how the gospel that's how the apostles did. No, it's not That's not how they did it these people

01:03:40

You know those long conversations that paul had they were not five minute presentations of a simplistic checkbox gospel and any

01:03:47

You're apostate you are reprobate go away. I'm going on to somebody else shake off the dust from my feet.

01:03:53

That's not what happened No gospel consideration whatsoever done

01:04:01

So no gospel consideration whatsoever. That's just a lie steve. Wake up Wake up You show me a single place aside from the debate with shabir ali in the mosque in erasmia

01:04:16

Where more of the gospel trinity deity of christ incarnation justification, etc, etc has ever been presented in those dialogues in a mosque

01:04:26

You can't You've never done it. You'll never be invited to because you don't you don't have enough respect

01:04:33

Just show me I'd just like to see Why aren't you rejoicing in that?

01:04:41

That we really need to start asking the question. What's the real motivations of these folks? What's their real motivations when you asked me a few minutes ago?

01:04:48

Do I believe jim's primary reason for doing these? Is for the gospel to see muslims come to christ.

01:04:54

I want to say no it's for the purpose Of getting along better communication you hit it on the head better communication of what pastor camp the gospel

01:05:06

Which is what happened, you know, it's funny. There was a It's amazing when christians don't get it and muslims do um

01:05:17

Here's a here's a clip this is gonna be out of it. Here's a clip from from the mosque

01:05:24

Correctly, uh, and i'm giving you the opportunity to spread your teachings here I'm giving you the opportunity to spread your teachings here

01:05:32

He knew what I was doing He knew why I was there He wasn't trying to keep me to do from from doing that How come he can get it and you don't

01:05:45

I'd like to suggest it's probably political It's probably political

01:05:51

There's there's something else going on there. And and I I think it's I think it's probably political You you have a certain understanding there.

01:05:59

I I we can we can agree to disagree on that Because I I i'm convinced that dr

01:06:04

White's goal and now i'm going to i'm going to psychoanalyze him and but this is just my opinion, but I think

01:06:12

That he did this the way he did it Because he wants to reach more muslims.

01:06:18

He wants he this is just my opinion. I could be way off He'll never admit if i'm right or wrong or he'll never admit if i'm right

01:06:24

But I think he did this to gain a greater opportunity to do debates

01:06:32

With muslims because I think he did it because he wants them to not come to christ not

01:06:38

I I I flat out reject Any idea that he's doing it so that we can get along?

01:06:44

I'm, i'm totally convinced and I think that you're wrong. Well, thank you. Uh, you are right up to the point of saying my motivation

01:06:55

Is to open doors if that includes further debates further dialogues the point is

01:07:02

I recognize that the american muslims and muslims around the world Have rarely heard

01:07:11

A meaningful presentation of any element of the gospel

01:07:17

Let me let me tell you a story real quick. Sorry. This this I don't know how long you've been going but Yeah, yeah, whatever, uh, oh, okay, let me tell you a story um

01:07:29

A couple of months about three or four months, maybe six months after The debate with shabir ali

01:07:39

In biola in 2006, I was contacted by a campus ministry. This is a number of years.

01:07:44

It's over a decade ago now They told me the story of three young muslim men from overseas that were attending university

01:07:54

As you know exchange students type thing, you know And they had been witnessing to them and they thought they had answered all their questions

01:08:01

And they just they just weren't making a commitment. They they so not they they were really objecting to the christian faith.

01:08:07

They just weren't Making that commitment. They sort of wondered, you know, what's what's in the way? And so they got the videotape back then or maybe a dvd.

01:08:17

I don't know 2006 Somewhere around there probably dvd um

01:08:22

Of the debate with shabir ali It was on is the new testament reliable? And they showed it to these guys

01:08:32

And when they got done watching the debate the guys said when can we be baptized now

01:08:41

If Pastor camp is consistent with himself He would criticize

01:08:48

That debate because I don't think the resurrection was ever mentioned didn't explain the incarnation because it was on the reliability new testament

01:08:56

So I was dealing with issues of textual reliability Consistency we we got bogged down a little bit though.

01:09:03

It worked out. Well in the issue of Uh the synoptic gospels and gyrus's daughter and the differences between matthew mark and luke on that on that subject things like that Um, but it you know if he's consistent that was just that was just terrible that was compromised because it was focused upon one particular subject

01:09:24

And they said when can we be baptized? and they're like Well, what what about the debate?

01:09:32

changed your mind Well, our biggest issue was whether you know, you had told us what the new testament teaches

01:09:38

But our biggest question was could the new testament be trusted? We can we've now seen that The best the best islamic arguments can be answered by the best christian arguments so one can be baptized

01:09:51

That'll never happen for steve camp Because steve camp does not understand the process of presenting a full -orbed christian presentation

01:10:02

And the recognition that sometimes you know, there's things you got to deal with There are issues you have to address

01:10:09

That are just not part of it tick box I went through that that's it I did my

01:10:14

I did my thing There you go, there you go I guess they weren't really saved.

01:10:21

Uh, you know because it didn't fit the uh But in the specificness of this interfaith dialogue

01:10:29

He laid out his own words Of what the purpose of these evenings were the first night in a church the second night in a mosque

01:10:37

And it was for the pragmatics Listen any non -believer could come together and do these things

01:10:44

Any non -believer could try to find that which we have similarities in which divides steve

01:10:51

This was probably your low point um on any rational level, this was just silly um no unbeliever

01:11:04

Could have said the things that yasser qadhi and I said to one another Either in the church or the mosque

01:11:12

I can't believe how any rational person would come to that conclusion I really can't that that's that's just it's just silly

01:11:19

That's I I how do you I don't even know how to respond to it Because the fundamental essence of everything that was said was based upon As had been played already

01:11:30

Our fundamental commitments to the truthfulness of the divine revelation That is contradictory

01:11:38

The theological chasm that separates us all those things you can't ignore that. I mean you you are you will ignore that Even though you said you listened to it three times.

01:11:47

So it really makes me wonder Why the selective hearing? When we see christians and especially pastors or in jim's case as an elder of a church an apologist

01:11:57

Lower the standard To guard the trust of god's infallible inerrant word under the guise of having peaceful dialogue

01:12:06

Then if we're no more discerning than that, then we're going to reap what we sow here tim in the next generation and we're going to see

01:12:13

This I would call it an unholy alliance between christianity and islam on methodology

01:12:20

That ends up with a stunted watered -down theology to condone the very message now that we've unfortunately come to embrace

01:12:29

Do you hear that? I I it's difficult for me to even begin to conceive

01:12:37

Of how the one person Not not okay people picking me out about that when we look at the past 15 years

01:12:51

Of debates Done by and i'm gonna have to stick with english -speaking people.

01:12:56

Sorry English -speaking christian scholars with muslims who has the most consistent track record

01:13:09

In defending the highest view of scripture, it's interesting um

01:13:16

I follow on facebook a number of muslim apologists and There was a fascinating conversation about two days ago on one of the facebook walls

01:13:31

Does anyone even use the term wall anymore? It's sort of that's sort of gone by the wayside, but um

01:13:38

And the observation was this that the majority of christian apologists dealing with islam

01:13:46

Are far more interested in critiquing muhammad in the quran than they are talking about the trinity or defending the scriptures the consistency of the old and new testaments atonement resurrection

01:14:00

Whole nine yards and as I thought about it, they named names

01:14:07

I was not listed And I had to admit Yeah They're exactly right

01:14:15

The majority of people they mentioned that that's their focus And so I just sort of did this smiling and waving from phoenix.

01:14:21

I made a comment smiling waving from phoenix one of the commentators responded by saying

01:14:29

We know you're not like that And that's why this one said I consider you to be the best

01:14:35

Christian apologist I didn't make that claim for myself. This was a muslim saying this because of the fact

01:14:42

That you are a person who not only attempts to be consistent But you do speak more about your faith

01:14:52

And why you believe the things you do Than simply attacking islam now once again um

01:15:05

Here you have pastor camp Accusing me of watering down the gospel watering down the defense of the word of god.

01:15:14

This is a man Who will speak boldly? But who is simply not trained or capable

01:15:22

Of engaging in the level of defense of the scriptures That would be necessary to engage in the kind of work that we do here regularly.

01:15:33

He has never published anything That provides any kind of meaningful unique defense of the inspiration transmission

01:15:48

Of scripture but he dares To say that someone who has done all that Is compromising

01:15:59

All because he will misrepresent What took place? In the course of that evening.

01:16:07

I don't understand the motivations um, but I am exposing them and refuting them and have a few more things

01:16:16

I need to get to Yeah, there's not too many more things here just a few more moments um, and then we'll we'll wrap it up because I think it's been

01:16:27

We've made our point, but let's just make the point a few more times and hope that we never have to do it again this is a a noted anti -christ jihadist

01:16:37

Who represents the largest religion on the planet? That is the most blasphemous pointed uh representative against the lord jesus christ

01:16:50

Well, that gives us an idea of uh exactly um What steve camp's position is?

01:16:57

I don't know how he comes to his conclusions. I I personally think that mormonism's, uh teaching that jesus was physically sired by elohim in a physical body is uh

01:17:15

Right up there Um seems to me pretty obvious that the author of the quran did not even understand the doctrine of the trinity and So, you know,

01:17:27

I mean that that that this is good nice red meat for folks, but what exactly does it accomplish?

01:17:33

And what's this jihadi imams? I'm, so sick and tired Of the willingness of christians to lie about muslims

01:17:42

Because they're muslims and and and to hide the lying Under the guise of religiosity.

01:17:50

That is absolutely repulsive to me It's repulsive to me Yasser khadi believes in jihad

01:18:01

That makes him a jihadi imam, right? If you can make that connection Recognizing what jihadi imam means to people recognizing exactly what you're doing that language

01:18:11

I have no respect for you because you're not a truthful person And you have no reason to ever ever object

01:18:18

To someone misrepresenting you because you're willing to operate on such a horrifically low level of truthfulness

01:18:27

I understand The younger yasser khadi's definition of jihad

01:18:34

And the current yasser khadi's definition of jihad because they're not the same thing See i've actually taken the time to listen.

01:18:42

I would know what the difference is and I think yasser would probably Accept my uh differentiation between the two is correct

01:18:51

I think he'd recognize. Yeah, I was In my 20s late 20s

01:18:58

I was there Now i've modified that You know, he once identified as a salafi.

01:19:04

He doesn't any longer. Okay I've even listened to people criticize. I've listened to muslims criticizing yasser khadi.

01:19:13

Um But I know exactly why brandon house steve camp and janet mefford robert spencer

01:19:21

Identify him as jihadi It is pure prejudice It is nothing but prejudice.

01:19:28

It is not meant to open doors honor truth Open away for the gospel.

01:19:35

It is meant to close doors. It is meant to express animosity. It has no place

01:19:42

In a christian approach none None, I know why they're doing it

01:19:52

Any orthodox sunni muslim believes in jihad Just as any orthodox christian believes that someday every knee will bow and every tongue confess

01:20:01

And as soon as I say that they go you can't compare the two things I'm, not saying they're the the identical things what i'm saying is

01:20:10

That there are things that unite all of us together and christians believe that someday god is going to bring to a conclusion

01:20:21

Everything that he has created which will include the judgment of the wicked he will extend divine power

01:20:30

Muslims believe the same thing not in the same way and if you don't recognize the difference You'll never get to talk about the distinction and how important it is which we've talked about in this program over and over again

01:20:40

Over and over again here. I thought people got what the difference was Silly silly me now, unfortunately,

01:20:49

I accidentally tapped the screen or tapped the uh Thing with bobby and it moved where the cursor was

01:20:58

So, let me just play something here and he said now jim claims to be ah, here we go, uh, i'm not sure if this was but Good enough, we're just gonna pick up here.

01:21:09

It is only like One two, three, four, five six. There's seven little blocks left to do.

01:21:14

So we'll let's get this done Here's one of the reasons I wanted to this program we've gotten this far in how long are we in an hour and 20 approximately

01:21:25

This is why I wanted this program when I heard this This is why when I got off the bike because I was riding inside got off the bike and tweeted about three or four tweets

01:21:33

Because it angered me i'll be honest it it angered me Why did it anger me?

01:21:39

um when Brennan house and his team of hitmen did their programs

01:21:49

I was a useful idiot for islam because i'm not smart enough to do this. I haven't done enough study

01:21:55

And I dared they said He says he's just a student of islam.

01:22:01

Well, we're the experts on islam. So let's we're gonna tell you What you need to believe?

01:22:07

He's just a student He's learned stuff from this guy so the argument was

01:22:13

You shouldn't be talking about this because you don't have the background. We're former muslims or at least we grew up in islamic countries

01:22:21

And so we were the experts and I explained to people

01:22:29

That I use the phrase student of islam because I recognize it's such a huge topic That starting a study at 44 years of age

01:22:42

Approximately 43 years of age Is too late in life To ever really become an expert on that subject

01:22:50

Now, I know that's that Requires you to have a view of scholarship that isn't overly common today

01:22:57

But it's mine So i'm a student of islam there's much that I have yet to learn and I may never learn

01:23:06

That does not mean that the knowledge I have is inaccurate It's just that it's a very deep subject and there's a lot to know so When I say that what i'm saying is

01:23:19

I am recognizing The limitations of meaningful scholarship and I am attempting to point out that People who claim to be experts

01:23:31

Aren't always experts And that you should prove your study by the consistency of the argumentation you make and the accuracy of your statements and things like that We've already caught steve making a few

01:23:48

Whoppers But be it as it may Here's Here's the next statement

01:23:57

And he said now jim claims to be I think a bit arrogantly the expert on the muslim faith

01:24:04

Among all any other evangelical. He's the guy. All right Where have

01:24:10

I ever said that? Where have I ever said that I have never made that statement

01:24:18

Steve it's a bold -faced lie You made it up whole cloth What you might be thinking of is a true statement

01:24:27

And that is in comparison to you I know a thousand times more about islam

01:24:33

There's no question about that I've actually taken the time. I mean hours and hours and hours and hours

01:24:41

Doesn't make me the expert There are people who know a lot more about all sorts of areas and aspects of islam

01:24:49

But I think what's behind that falsehood Is a recognition on your part that you are trolling in waters.

01:24:57

You should not even be dipping your toes in Because you have not done the work You have not read sahih al -bukhari you have not read sahih muslim

01:25:07

You don't know the difference between sahih Sound and unsound and the various levels of hadith.

01:25:14

You have no earthly idea You don't know the quran you haven't read it as many times as I have you don't know any arabic

01:25:24

You don't know the theological terminology You don't listen to these individuals as they lecture to their own people so that you'd be able to communicate with them

01:25:34

So I think what's going on here is you know That you're criticizing me way out of your depth.

01:25:41

And so what you do is you just misrepresent me It's a falsehood, you know, it's a falsehood

01:25:47

And I think you know What you're supposed to do about falsehoods right good non -believer explain a

01:25:57

Devout concept like justification by okay, then again At one point

01:26:04

Yasser qadi tried to simplify something I was saying about justification funny thing is like I said We've played

01:26:09

I may play it here. I think it comes up here in a moment when steve Gives his he's going to give this one minute summary of the gospel.

01:26:17

He's going to use every buzzword known to man But then he turns around here and criticizes me For my explanation which was much clearer

01:26:25

And much more simple In the in the mosque, so I I I play this just simply for contrasting non -believer explain a

01:26:34

Devout concept like justification by faith. Jim didn't do it Yeah, and the whole point is even in that and i'm not being hyperly critical.

01:26:43

Just watch the videos I appreciate what you said to your audience. Yeah, watch the videos watch the videos. I didn't explain justification

01:26:50

It's just it's just like the the bias here There's obviously other things going on with steve

01:26:58

On this is not myself and others that are concerned about jim the drama in all of this is jim

01:27:03

Why not the gospel? That's the drama but but but steve steve To be honest you you first tweeted out saying that he didn't share the gospel and then when they said yeah he did

01:27:14

Now you're like no not the whole gospel and now we're analyzing like the entire

01:27:22

Scope of everything that we could say about the gospel Everything the whole scope of everything we could say about the gospel is way more than two minutes bingo

01:27:30

Exactly, right Tim nailed it because There was falsehood given forth.

01:27:36

You didn't do the gospel. Uh, yeah, we did Well, you didn't do the gospel with the tick boxes. I want to use in the way that i'd like to say it and look

01:27:45

We could take any sermon That steve camp's ever done And critique it

01:27:51

And say you didn't mention this didn't mention that didn't go into enough depth than it didn't it's easy to do easy to do uh, sadly people do it over sunday lunches with lots of pastors

01:28:02

All the time and I think here's the example. I think here's where steve tries to say. Oh, yes, I can do it And james could have done it too.

01:28:09

Now. Listen to all the buzzwords. Yes Now I want you to know tim that I in less than two minutes here and you've mentioned this as well can explain

01:28:17

Jesus christ pre -existed As god the son what's god's son to me? What does son mean in islamic mind?

01:28:23

What does son mean? Can you tell me steve? Can you tell me what the quran says about sonship? Can you tell me what was going on the kabba before muhammad?

01:28:29

Do you have any earthly idea? None, do you? The most shocking verse in all the scripture.

01:28:35

John 1 14 the word became flesh Why he dwelt among us he had to live the life faithful to the law of god that adam could never live

01:28:43

And he satisfied the law in his flesh as son of man Son of man, what's doing son of man son of god?

01:28:49

What does it mean to fulfill law? Which law moses law? See, these are questions that muslims are going to have

01:28:56

You're using all the buzz terms Thinking you're accomplishing something and you're not communicating anything

01:29:03

Because you don't know how to do it because your entire apologetics is we don't need to know And he satisfied the penalty and everything that the law requires for god to be satisfied christ died for god satisfied what?

01:29:16

Christ died for god. I thought christ was god You're not distinguishing between father and son. You're confusing people steve as son of god

01:29:23

And our sin and the guilt and the penalty of our sin as well as the wrath of god against our sin Was poured out upon jesus on calvary's tree, but he didn't die upon calvary's tree

01:29:32

Surah 4 1 7 says he didn't die and there's all he just did a whole debate with somebody on that very subject

01:29:39

And he took it and he satisfied god. What is that? What satisfied god? He was god.

01:29:44

How can god satisfy god propitiation? Oh propitiation. That's a big word. What is that supposed to mean was satisfied his anger assuaged he died

01:29:53

He rose bodily three days later in his three days, uh, friday to sunday morning is in three days

01:29:58

Into the heavens and salvation Therefore is putting your faith and belief in the finished work of jesus christ upon the cross whereby through the work of the holy spirit

01:30:09

You can the holy spirit's angel, uh jabril ask him as lord and believe that god has raised him from the dead to be saved

01:30:16

Now, I don't have a stopwatch, but I think that took about 60 seconds Yeah, and it wouldn't have really communicated almost anything to a muslim

01:30:23

Sounded great But just as you have to define terms for mormons just as mormons think that Salvation is of different kinds and you salvation is resurrection.

01:30:37

Salvation is is exaltation And so you have to be very very careful. It's so easy when you're not actually out there talking to them when they're just to do that kind of thing

01:30:50

You said I arrogantly claim something. I don't care. I don't actually claim that was pretty arrogant steve

01:30:56

Well you didn't See now, I think you're proving my point because I could be over and I could

01:31:03

I could say pastor steve You didn't mention the virgin birth You didn't mention bodily resurrection or you you gave no call to obey

01:31:13

Which well, here's the thing. I know I did mention that he died on the cross and he bodily rose from the grave three days

01:31:18

Later, okay, you did the word the word became flesh. That is the virgin birth. Oh, but see now you're you're asking that we assume

01:31:26

Certain things based upon your past teachings that that that that just was see

01:31:31

What's good for the goose is good for the gander? And i'll always share that when when communicating is the word became flesh.

01:31:39

That's the virgin birth I I didn't read the virgin birth. That's what i'm saying is we could overanalyze what i'm saying is no, there's no

01:31:45

There's no call tim Uh in the gospel that you have to understand the doctrine of the trinity

01:31:54

I'll just leave that there I'll just leave that there There's the call to repentance And to turn from islam to turn from a pedophile prophet

01:32:04

To turn from a satanically inspired quran. That's not language. He's going to use there

01:32:10

Although it's true. That's language. He wouldn't use what i'm saying is is if a man is Earth is salt.

01:32:16

Okay, then he goes off onto his story and This this is really what these this is really what he's about Um He this is this is really the the mindset

01:32:31

The mindset is to get that shot in there Got to talk about repenting from islam, even though you know, the gospel of john doesn't actually use the term repent, but See that standard see how many times we've caught him utilizing that double standard um

01:32:48

It's all through I only have one other block that I marked off Might as well go ahead and listen to it real quick and then we're done So If you're in a mosque and you have a very powerful imam

01:32:59

And at the end of the night, they're applauding you and you're tying bow ties on him and having a gay old time doing so And you think you've preached the gospel jim will say that no,

01:33:10

I I shared the gospel you share the gospel in a mosque Listen, we have to be clear on not only what we're calling people to but what we're calling them from now

01:33:24

Let's finish up with this Um Steve says he's listened to the these responses

01:33:33

So steve, I want to ask you Um You'll never get that opportunity to do that.

01:33:41

But if for some strange reason you had Um, what would be the chances?

01:33:52

If you had presented if you had said I call all of you To leave your satanic religion and your pedophile prophet and believe in jesus.

01:34:03

Do you think? That you would ever had The conversation with the young lady afterwards that I had

01:34:12

You know the conversation where she thanks me for coming about very educational very useful

01:34:19

But asked me a question. Um, how do I deal? With the influence of pagan religion on the development of the doctrine of the trinity at the council of nicaea

01:34:33

Do you think anybody would have asked you about that with an open mind if you had

01:34:41

Spoken like that in the mosque. So in other words steve, what i'm asking is why can't you trust the holy spirit of god?

01:34:50

To apply His truth in people's lives and bring them to come to understand these things without you having to use razor blades to their face

01:35:02

Seriously, this is how you do it Razor blades to the face, you know, some people will say well, you know

01:35:15

You're saying this now about islam. But uh, you know you you signed the national statement. That's same thing.

01:35:21

No, it's not The national statement is not satanic religion pedophile prophet

01:35:29

The national statement is biblical firm clear But there are no razors to the face in the national statement and um

01:35:42

May I point you to my debate? that jd hall introduced um with the author of torn

01:35:53

For a clear example of a pastorally sensitive uncompromising discussion of human sexuality

01:36:03

Sorry, there is no parallel again, um

01:36:09

I will allow Pastor camp to answer for his motivations. I I cannot discern them.

01:36:15

They are beyond discerning Um, but I think we've demonstrated

01:36:23

Just going to this point um Just how bankrupt?

01:36:30

this continued Exhortation and you say why do you keep dealing with it aside from the fact that the

01:36:40

The arguments are morphing and the claims are morphing What you need to hear

01:36:47

Is that steve camp is saying don't Prepare yourself to be a sharp instrument in the hands of christ

01:36:57

To the muslim people that's compromise And I say to you, it's just the opposite It's just the opposite um

01:37:07

Steve camp needs to step up his game. First of all, stop misrepresenting the aside and then secondly, uh

01:37:14

There are certain terms, you know, steve you you love talking about greek I don't think you read it, but you love talking about it and so, um

01:37:24

How about uh, how about picking up your game? And let's let's see some meaningful refutation exegetically of what i've presented in regards to the nature of dialogues moss

01:37:39

Pytho, uh Paisman a if you want to use the substantive form um let's

01:37:47

Let's hear something meaningful from you rather than just misrepresentation a lot of verbiage a lot of verbiage

01:37:55

So there you go, folks. Um Do I expect?

01:38:01

a meaningful response uh, i'll be honest with you, I I don't but To others.

01:38:09

Yeah The issue is what about others? What about the person preparing to go on the mission field?

01:38:16

So I think there needs to be a rebuttal Of people that are saying hey, you don't need to know what those folks believe

01:38:25

Because they'll take a little bit of truth. God can use anyone to proclaim the gospel. That's true but if you take that to the length that they're taking it to that means we should never do ministry preparation because You can use anybody you don't need to learn those biblical languages or all the rest of that kind of stuff, right?