Witch Casts A Spell On Us & SBC President's Ignorance

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00:00

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it! Are you going to bark all day, little doggie?

00:10

Or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional? Delusional is okay in your worldview.

00:16

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

00:24

It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me! YES! What? What?

00:32

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:44

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

00:50

Right. Don't go into the world and make homies. Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

00:57

That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:28

Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due when it is in your power to do it.

01:34

Do not say to your neighbor, go and come again tomorrow. I will give it to you when you have it with you.

01:42

That's Proverbs 3, 27 through 28. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

01:49

This is the gospel heard around the world. Thank you for joining us. Make sure you guys let everyone know about this episode.

01:55

We got some important stuff to cover today. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back, I suppose, to us.

02:00

We are back in town, in the country. We had the privilege, the honor of going to Northern Ireland and the

02:07

Republic of Ireland to serve the churches that we've helped to raise up out there who are preaching the gospel in the midst of their now new

02:15

Holocaust in Ireland, the North and in the Republic. And so, praise

02:20

God, it was truly a humbling honor to see all that God has done through the work of Apologia Church, encouraging, pouring into those brothers and sisters there.

02:28

They're out saving lives right now. We have some stuff to report about that. But we're back in town, so thank you guys so much for being patient with us the last two weeks.

02:36

As we didn't have a show, but we're back, very excited about the months to come and what is going on into the new year and next year.

02:44

We have states we're working on right now with bills of equal protection and abolition. We have so much going on. We have some content we are putting together for everybody right now to bless you, to encourage you, to equip you.

02:54

And so, lots going on. I encourage you to go to ApologiaStudios .com, A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A,

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for Bonson U. It is an online seminary course. It is from one of the greatest in church history, to my mind.

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So don't forget to sign up. My son is actually taking one of his courses for school.

04:15

He's homeschooled, and he's taking one of the courses from Bonson U for school for philosophy and apologetics.

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So learning worldview, learning debate, all that stuff. So homeschoolers, families, excellent stuff there for you guys to give your kids a course, a class.

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That's what it is, from seminary, on all kinds of stuff, philosophy, worldview, debate, all that stuff, logic.

04:37

It's a fantastic resource, and it's free. So if you're not using it, you need to use it. It's a huge blessing.

04:42

It will be a gift to you and to your family. So we're back, and I want to just highlight everyone.

04:48

Go to reformcon .org. Please go to reformcon .org. Get your tickets, because limited seating.

04:54

End of October, Reformation Day weekend, ReformCon. And I am Jeff, the Calm of the

04:59

Ninja. That's Luke the Bear. And that is Zach Conover, our Director of Communications for End Abortion Now.

05:04

Important show for you today, but before we start, I'm going to kick it over to Luke. So I had a really interesting conversation with one of our

05:15

Irish brothers. I'm not going to say his name. About tyranny. And we were actually talking about January 6th.

05:25

And not that he believed that there was an insurrection, but just the whole narrative. And he turns to me and says,

05:33

Your nation was kind of founded on an insurrection, wasn't it? And just kind of laughed, and I was like, I'm not going to let that one go, sorry.

05:41

Yeah, no. No, I disagree with that. And he's like, I was just kidding. And I was like, yeah, I don't think you were. But I bring that up because I wanted to mention our good friends at the

05:55

Armored Republic who are fighting tyranny with body armor.

06:01

My brain's not working today either. You feel it? You feeling it? Yes, I'm alone. Yeah, you feel it?

06:07

I'm feeling it. A little slow. Bear with me. I didn't travel, so. We're still adjusting, guys. We're back from Ireland.

06:12

Eight hours ahead. But few people know that in 1776, the newly formed United States rented private battleships to help them resist

06:20

British tyranny. Private battleships. That's right. Private battleships. So that's what we use to fight tyranny. And you know, it's funny, the nice gentleman that made that comment to me,

06:30

I was like, it's your ancestors that actually came and were the ones resisting the tyranny. So thank you for that.

06:36

Private battleships are a tool of liberty. Much a preach. They equip men to resist tyranny.

06:44

Another tool of liberty is body armor. A defensive tool so you can stay in the fight for as long as possible.

06:50

At Armored Republic, we stand for aiming free men with body armor. Arming free men with body armor.

06:57

It's going to be a day. So they can resist tyranny for Christ the King. Check out our website at ar500armor .com.

07:04

Sign up for our email list. Equip yourself. Join the Armored Republic today. Yeah.

07:09

Just so everyone knows, Luke and I are going to be as useful as we can be today during this radio program.

07:15

We actually informed Zach and our guest today, Pastor Brian Gunter, that we needed them to help carry the show because we're just not working today.

07:24

So it's weird. Like you go to Ireland, they're eight hours ahead. That first day when you land, you haven't slept because the overnight flight, by the time you get there, it's still like nighttime for you.

07:33

So like you just have to push through that first day. And then you spend like five days.

07:39

You're like, okay, I'm basically adjusted. Then we turned around and came home, and now here we go. So the brain's not fully functioning.

07:44

I adjusted pretty quickly there. Like I felt pretty good most of the time, but coming back is, I don't know what it is, but just my sleep.

07:51

I can't get my sleep right. Westward travel. It's tough. This is your equilibrium. Yeah. We have lots of stuff, by the way, to share with everybody about Ireland, but we're going to do that after.

08:01

And you'll be seeing stuff in the weeks to come. The crew is working on producing the content for all of you guys.

08:07

I especially hope it's a blessing for all of you guys that give to end abortion now, because not only are you a part of all the churches we've raised up that are saving just tens of thousands of lives, you're not only a part of the bills that we're putting in to states to establish equal protection, but you're a part of the work that actually is happening now in Northern Ireland and the

08:25

Republic of Ireland. So we hope it's a blessing to you guys. So you'll notice today, the title of the show today is

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A Witch Casts a Spell, A Witch Casts a Spell and the SBC President's Ignorance.

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Now, just so everybody knows at the outset, we want to love our brothers, acknowledge that Barber is a brother in the

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Lord. He loves Jesus. We love him for Jesus' sake, but ignorance is ignorance.

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We mean that in a classical sense, ignorant. You don't understand. And so we're going to confront a bit of the

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SBC president, the new SBC president's ignorance on the issue of equal protection and the abolition of abortion.

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And so to do that, we have a special guest today with us. You guys have seen him before. It is

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Pastor Brian Gunter. He is the man that we work together with, with End Abortion Now and Bradley Pierce in Texas to put the bill, the historic bill into the state of Louisiana, the past hearing, first past hearing in the history of Roe versus Wade, the time of Roe versus Wade went to the floor, the bill of abolition that caused all the problems and is still causing no small controversy.

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There's just a recent CNN article. CNN apparently is just now catching up with what happened months ago.

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A little slow. They're behind the eight ball a little bit, but they just published an article talking about Danny McCormick and some of Brian Gunter and Bradley Pierce in that article.

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And so it's a good time to talk about all of this. Welcome to the show, Brian Gunter. It's good to be here with you guys.

09:56

After this CNN article dropped, I've had all kinds of fans reach out to me.

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A lot of mail coming in, a lot of messages. And I just love to hear from my leftist friends who want to support baby murder.

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Fan mail, fan mail. Thank you for reaching out. Yeah. Fan mail, fan voicemails. It's interesting. CNN, Christian Nationalist News Network.

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Just another way to kind of, because they love to throw that out as a derogatory statement against Christians that believe the

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Bible. You guys believe that all the nations should be under Christ. It's like, well, you're way behind.

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Clearly you're way behind because that was, that's about 2000 year old teaching. All the nations come into Christ. Your understanding has not ascended to the right place.

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Right. Exactly. So given that discussion, Pastor Brian was mentioned in the

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CNN article just a couple of days ago, as again, Danny McCormick was our representative in the state of Louisiana who put the bill in.

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And so Brian's been getting some voicemails and some threats and all the rest.

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And so I'm going to play the voicemail that he received on his church's voicemail.

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Just a warning ahead of time. As you guys hear this, this person claims to be a witch who casts a spell on Pastor Brian, and she's threatening him.

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Just a warning ahead of time. There is, I think, one curse word in this, and so it's a live show right now.

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We didn't prepare anything to bleep it out. So just so you know, there's one curse word coming up. So if you've got kids around, maybe turn it down a bit.

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But this is the voicemail that Pastor Brian got at church. You people will never have a blessed day again regarding your views on a woman's right to choose and calling a woman a murderer if she's raped and doesn't want the cancer.

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Let me tell you something. Jesus hates you. I know for a fact Jesus would never act like that.

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My father is a minister from Baton Rouge. He would be rolling in his grave knowing that this piece of shit, what's his name?

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Brian Gunter. He's going to rot in hell. In fact, something really bad is going to happen to him soon.

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You know why? Because I'm a witch and I just put a curse on him. That's right.

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And Jesus hates him and he hates your church. Bye. Have fun in hell. Oh my goodness.

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It gets me every time. It gets me every time. Bye. What's your name?

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Pastor Brian Gunter. It just escalated so fast.

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It did escalate. I'm like, threat to spell. I'm going to spell you. I wonder how well a t -shirt would sell in her circles, a t -shirt that says

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Jesus hates you. Oh, I've got to find a way to spin that. Jesus hates you.

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Interesting. So yeah, and that's not the only thing that Pastor Brian has got, and it's obviously intense, but I was looking down here.

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The passage I read at the beginning of the program today was Proverbs 3, and that's, It's just a couple of verses down.

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There's this contrast that keeps happening. I'm going to talk about actually this

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Sunday, the Lord's Day, the contrast between the devious person and the upright, the abomination versus God's friendship or confidence, the curse versus the blessing.

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But it says here, it says, The Lord's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous.

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And so it would be good to share with a person who says that they're a witch who's casting spells and curses.

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We're not concerned as Christians about any curses that you would put on us. I mean, the curse you need to be concerned with is the curse that God puts on the house of the wicked.

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His curse counts. And it says he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. And so Brian's fine.

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Brian's fine. But Brian, I did have some unexplained warts that I'd woken up with that morning and voicemail.

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And I was like, Oh, okay. That's that, that explains it. Yeah. Other than that. Yeah. I guess that's minimal.

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Yeah. So let's catch everybody up. So in case you guys are new to the discussion, I'll just try to just give you a burst on, on the last year, what happened just so you have some context.

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So what CNN was writing about, which Rachel, what Rachel Maddow commented on, which was in the New York times, all that was our bill.

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We worked together with pastor Brian and Danny McCormick on, it was in the state of Louisiana. It was a bill of equal protection.

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It's a bill that basically defined what's in the womb as human from conception. It said that it's, it's the image of God and it's essentially would legislate that there would be equal justice, equal protection for all humans from the moment of conception.

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So equality for all human beings, you're human from conception image of God. That's what it said. And so again, this created no small controversy.

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The pro -life establishment and industry came out in full force against the bill of equal protection.

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They are not looking for bills of equal protection because they do not believe the mother or the father is ultimately guilty for slaughtering a child in the womb.

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They are really helping with the D I Y abortion problem because they do not believe that a woman is guilty, should be ever seen as guilty.

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And so they, they did not like the bill of equal protection. They worked together on a letter over 70 of the largest predominant prominent pro -life organizations in a nation sent that letter out to legislators across the country.

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In particular, it went to our legislators. They were carrying it in their hands that day and to ask them not to pass bills of equal protection that would ever, ever see the woman as guilty.

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So they're not working to abolish abortion and they're not working to make it a crime for a mother or father to kill their children.

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And so that's what happened. This bill was the first of its kind. It's unique, by the way, in the history of Roe versus Wade in this nation.

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It is unique because the pro -life establishment has been working to criminalize abortion in the United States of America and to provide equal protection.

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So the fact that we've had all these bills of equal protection over the last couple of years was unique in itself.

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And that was coming from the church and Christians in particular. But this one in particular was unique because, and historic, because it went to the hearing stage.

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They usually block that. When I say they, I mean the pro -life establishment blocks it, but it made it to hearing.

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And then it made past hearing, sailed through seven to two. And so it went to the floor and it was resisted and ultimately shut down, not by the pro -choicers, but by the pro -life establishment.

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So that's who Brian is. If you're new to Apologia Radio, Apologia Studios, that's who Brian is.

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He is a brother in the Lord. We love him. We work closely together with him. We're going to do more with him coming up soon in the future.

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Lord willing, of course, but that's what we're planning. And so Pastor Brian, aside from, of course, all the threats you've been getting and everything else the last couple of days, there's been a bit of a controversy surrounding the

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SBC's new president, Brent Barber. He has been throwing his...

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Bart. Bart Barber. Bart, sorry. Brent. Leatherwood. You practiced too. I did practice.

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Are you still in rehearsal? Yeah. Okay. Brent Leatherwood is the head of the ERLC, which is the sort of political arm of the

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Southern Baptist Convention. Bart Barber is the new president of the SBC. And so Bart Barber has been throwing his hat into the ring over the recent days regarding the issue of equal protection and abolition.

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And he is, I'll say this with grace to him because he loves the Lord. He is a brother in the Lord. He's just wrong here. He is completely ignorant.

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He's ignorant. And I would, if you see this, brother, I'd invite you on the show.

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I'd invite you on the show. Let's sit and let's have a round table discussion. Better yet, we'll fly out to wherever you're at.

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We'll sit down with Pastor Brian. We'll sit down with Bradley Pierce and, and us, and we'll work through these things with you because you are undeniably ignorant.

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And you're, what you're doing is you're leaving a public record of ignorance. And I, I don't want that for you.

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I don't, I don't rejoice in that, but you, you are undeniably leaving a record of public ignorance, which is, is not good for the

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Southern Baptist Convention's president to be making these kinds of mistakes publicly. And the mistakes that you're making are mistakes that actually lead to the slaughter of the unborn.

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It helps it. And so it's, this is no small matter. It's a very big deal. So as we leap into this,

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Pastor Brian, talk to us about your thoughts about all this. Yeah. You know, I'm a

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Southern Baptist convention, pastor first Baptist church in Livingston, Louisiana is an

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SBC church. And you know, we're going to have to reconsider this moving forward, but up to this point in time, 10 % of every dollar that is given in our church, we send on through the cooperative program of the

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Southern Baptist convention. And we send tens of thousands of dollars annually in an effort to support the gospel going forward.

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And the work of missions to the Southern Baptist convention, really the reason why the

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SBC exists is primarily to educate pastors, the next generation of ministers and to send the gospel forward through missionaries and spreading the gospel and planning churches across the world.

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And so that is why churches give to the SBC. That's why we're a part of the

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SBC. And it's really unfortunate that Mark Barber, who is the new president of the

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Southern Baptist convention, who ran with the promise that he was going to unify the

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Southern Baptist convention after the last president's plagiarism scandal calls so much division.

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You know, what we, what we saw was a man promising to unify us. And then when he's elected, he starts personally attacking pastors who support abolition.

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He attacked my good friend, dusty beavers and you know, he's going after pastors who want abortion to be fully criminalized.

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And he's attacking them on Twitter. And, you know, I've never been on Twitter before.

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I didn't want to be on Twitter, but when the president of my convention is attacking pastors like myself, who support abolition, we have to respond.

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This cannot go unanswered. Well, and that's a good point here. So let's bring the audience into this pastor,

20:54

Brian, as we get people caught up who are maybe new to this discussion, as we engage this and begin to unpack and engage with some of Barber's ignorance around this issue.

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You mentioned that you're a Southern Baptist convention pastor. You've got other Southern Baptist convention pastors who are ultimately engaging with the

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Southern Baptist convention's new president on this issue. And he's displaying ignorance. He's acting as though it was not the

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SBC members who voted for equal protection.

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It's almost like we want to pretend like that didn't actually happen. And so just for everyone's, just for a record for everybody and even for Barber, if you see this brother, this is actually some footage from when that took place two years ago in Nashville.

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I was there. Louisiana. This is not the bill ask school resolution. This is the resolution calling for the abolishing of abortion submitted by scores of pastors from across this

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Southern Baptist convention. Now we will vote on the resolution itself as amended.

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If you are in favor of the resolution as amended with the following word alone put into clause 14, if you are in favor of that, please indicate so by uplifted ballot.

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Okay. All opposed. The same side. The affirmative has it and the resolution is adopted.

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So that was a footage from the Southern Baptist convention's annual member meeting in Nashville, Tennessee.

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I was sitting in the very back there and you could see pastor Brian was actually sitting right there by askal in that clip. And so Brian and I were there.

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We were there. We were witnesses. There's a whole bunch of other witnesses. You just witnessed it yourself.

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The Southern Baptist convention members voted for bills of abolition and equal protection.

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And that's what makes this so challenging at this point is that this is already something that has been voted on by the members of the

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Southern Baptist convention. And now you have the Southern Baptist conventions, new presidents actually saying things that display ignorance, but also display opposition against what is the, the devoted in position of the members of the

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SBC. Correct. Brian. That's absolutely correct. You know, Jeff, you and I met at the convention in Nashville.

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And I remember the conversation that we first had, you know, I said, look, I've been working in the pro -life movement for years, but I agree with what you're saying.

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And you know, we talked about these things and realized that we agreed and we would work together toward ending abortion in Louisiana and states across America.

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Look, that's what we're asking Bart Barber to do is to have a brotherly discussion. And instead of coming to us and talking about these things, he is attacking pastors and people who support the abolition of abortion.

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And let's just make it really clear what the messengers in Nashville voted to be the official policy of the

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Southern Baptist convention. We voted that we wanted bills that would abolish abortion and make it a crime for anyone to kill a preborn child.

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And this is a really important point. It's a really important distinction. That's right. The pro -life establishment.

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And we saw it in the may 12th letter authored by national right to life committee and signed by over 70 so -called pro -life organizations around the country.

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In that letter, they said that they are absolutely opposed to any bills that would criminalize abortion for the woman, which means they do not want it to be a crime for the woman to have an abortion.

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They want it to be legal for her to have an abortion. And if she does, so she will face no consequences whatsoever.

24:59

Well, I don't believe that anyone should have the legal immunity to kill children in this nation.

25:08

There is no one who has the right or should have legal immunity to kill a child.

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And it's the position of apparently Bart Barber. He said it publicly on Twitter and of the national right to life committee and many in the pro -life establishment that they believe that women who kill their children by abortion should face no consequences.

25:33

Now we need to be clear here. They don't want abortion clinics to exist.

25:39

They want abortion clinics to be criminalized, but they want abortion to be legal for women. That's a fact.

25:45

And what we're saying is, no, it shouldn't be legal for anyone to kill a child in America.

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That is not an extreme position. No. And, and, and pastor Brian, let's, let's just make sure we have integrity here and we're fair and everyone hears this.

25:59

Well, pastor Brian said there was true. It's undeniable because it seems outrageous, right?

26:07

To say that the pro -life establishment wants abortion to be legal for the mother. That seems outrageous.

26:13

It seems conspiracy theorist. It seems like you're being unfair. It's the truth. I'm sorry.

26:18

I was on the floor in Louisiana when this all took, went down in Louisiana. And that one instance in Louisiana was the greatest display.

26:26

You can look it up for yourself. The pro -life establishment came in and they convinced the legislators to not pass the bill that a week prior, they were all behind and said they were going to vote.

26:36

Yes. On, they were going to abolish and criminalize abortion in Louisiana because the pro -life establishment came in and said, no, we do not want women to ever be seen as guilty or criminalized for the issue of abortion.

26:46

So what pastor Brian said is their public position. They wrote a letter on it. They put it out to let me read.

26:53

Yeah. Let me read what is now law in Louisiana. They, they defeated house bill eight 13, the bill to abolish abortion.

27:01

And instead they passed Senate bill three 88. And it's now act number five 48, because this is current law in Louisiana.

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They decided this should be the law instead. Senate bill three 88 establishes the crime of criminal abortion.

27:16

And it makes it a crime in the state of Louisiana to possess or consume the abortion bill.

27:22

Now so far, it sounds good, right? Except when you get to page three section D.

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We see that none of the following shall be construed to create the crime of criminal abortion by means of an abortion inducing drug.

27:37

And among the exceptions, number two is any act taken or omission by a pregnant woman with regard to her own unborn child, which means the only people it's not a crime to possess or consume the abortion pill is pregnant women.

27:56

I don't know who else is taking abortion pills in Louisiana. It's a crime for them, but if you're a pregnant woman, it's not a crime.

28:02

And then exception three makes it very clear. It's not a crime for a woman who is possessing for her own consumption or consuming an abortion inducing drug in violation of this section.

28:16

She has legal immunity to procure, possess, and consume an abortion pill anytime she gets pregnant.

28:26

And it was the pro -life establishment led by the national right to life committee and Louisiana right to life in this state, whom

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I used to work with and work for. They passed Senate bill three 88.

28:39

And this is the really deceptive part of it. They ensured that it would be legal for women in Louisiana to procure, possess, and consume the abortion pill.

28:53

You have to understand this. They passed a law which ensured that women would be able to take the abortion pill and have abortions in Louisiana as long as they do it themselves.

29:05

And they passed that law and called it pro -life. Yeah. So Brian, you're saying that it wasn't the pro -choicers that passed this into legislation.

29:15

It was pro -lifers. This is a pro -life establishment idea. Yes. Yeah.

29:21

And so, go ahead. Well, I was going to say, you know, Louisiana right to life was saying after Dobbs was overturned on their

29:29

Facebook page, they were saying, no, we still need to be careful because black market abortions are on the rise in Louisiana.

29:37

And there's two problems with their statement. Number one, they're not black market abortions anymore.

29:44

And the second problem is you're the one who made them legal. You passed Senate bill 388 to make

29:51

DIY abortions legal in the state of Louisiana. I mean, this is, this is,

29:57

I know it sounds amazing, but go read the bill for yourself. Right. This is what they've done.

30:03

Well, and I think it's important for us to demonstrate to everybody again, again, my assumption is there's new people watching.

30:09

You're just getting into this conversation. When you hear us talking in negative terms about the pro -life movement, the pro -life establishment, the pro -life industry, it is because we're approaching this issue as Christians, as pastors, as believers, as followers of Christ, as people who believe in this revelation as the ultimate standard.

30:32

And what many people are unaware of as they're getting into this discussion for the first time is that the pro -life establishment believes in something that is, from a

30:43

Christian perspective, heretical. They believe in a heresy. It's a doctrinal issue.

30:49

The pro -life establishment teaches people what is true. That's called doctrine. The Christian church has doctrine.

30:56

We have teaching. The pro -life establishment has doctrine. They go across the country. They teach people what's true about the issue of abortion, who's guilty, who's not guilty, so they have a doctrine.

31:07

Their doctrine is heretical. It is not biblical. It is not even historically orthodox.

31:13

I'm grateful to God. Christian church history is a mess. It is glorious at times, and it's also super messy.

31:19

You have heroes of the faith saying things that are just like Paul and Jesus, and you're like, that's amazing. And then they engage in some of the most egregious self -contradiction imaginary.

31:29

There's self -contradiction. There's community contradiction. That's what sanctification looks like in a church that's saved by Jesus.

31:34

Over time, we get sanctified. People are fallible, uninspired. They make mistakes. Great. But one of the things

31:40

I love is that you can see in the history of the Christian church, there is this area of consistency around the issue of the unborn.

31:49

From the earliest days of the Christian church on, you can see a consistent Christian position around the issue of the pre -born.

31:57

You have in the earliest stage of the church, the didache, talking about abortion as murder.

32:03

You have moving in the first four or five centuries of the church, the issue comes up a number of times, and they call it guilt.

32:10

They call it sin. They call it murder. And they see the person involved in it as actually guilty. And lo and behold, praise

32:16

God they do, because it actually means that the gospel can impact that woman, and it can give the message of life and forgiveness and salvation to that woman.

32:25

The pro -life establishment, however, has a heretical position that says that the woman is never to be seen as guilty.

32:32

She's as much a victim as her baby is. And so it is a devastatingly bad position.

32:40

It is heresy. It is false doctrine. And it is destructive to the work of the

32:45

Christian church to establish justice for the pre -born. So I want you to see it with your own eyes. Don't just take my word for it.

32:52

You want to have a witness to this? We'll give you a witness to this. You can have loads of videos that we've already done.

32:57

You can see the stuff that Pastor Brian is referring to right now. You can see the letter they handed out to our legislators that day in Louisiana telling them not to pass the bill that would actually criminalize it for the mother.

33:07

But I think this is better because we're talking about the SBC. This is Pastor Brian. We were together this year in Anaheim as well.

33:14

Two years in a row, Brian. Maybe next year if they let me in. They may not let us in next year. They may not let us in.

33:20

In my backyard. Well, they'll let you in in New Orleans, but they may not let me in this year. But we were together in Anaheim.

33:27

And in Anaheim, Pastor Brian, we were praying for this opportunity. Pastor Brian got the opportunity to go up and talk to Brent Leatherwood, the head of the

33:34

ERLC, because Brent Leatherwood's name was on the letter that was handed out to our legislators saying don't pass this bill or anything like it.

33:45

And so Pastor Brian got the opportunity to go up and to ask him a question. And I want you to witness it for yourselves. And then we'll get right into Barber's comments on Twitter.

33:55

Legislators, to introduce House Bill 813 in the Louisiana legislature.

34:01

HB 813 was a bill that sought to immediately end all abortion in my state by providing equal protection to the child in the womb.

34:11

Simply stated, if life begins at conception, then our laws should protect life from the moment of conception.

34:21

So you can imagine my surprise when you signed a letter dated

34:28

May 12th urging all state lawmakers across America to oppose this bill and others like it because it would make it a crime for a woman to kill her own child by abortion.

34:42

I thought that Southern Baptist, when we say we're pro -life, we mean that no person should be able to murder an innocent child in the womb.

34:53

So this is my question. Is it really your position that the mother who willfully kills her own child by abortion is never guilty before God and she should never face any consequences under the law?

35:13

Essentially the question is, hey, I thought we said we believed this. It's human from conception.

35:19

Why are you working against the bills that would actually say that? That it's human from conception and all humans deserve equal protection.

35:28

Here's the reality. You're not going to get me to say that I want to throw mothers behind bars.

35:35

That's not the view of this entity. That is not the view of this convention. It is not the view of the pro -life movement.

35:45

So quickly, we've said this many times. It's important to say it every time we go over this.

35:52

When Leatherwood says it's not my position that we should throw women behind bars, we always say this.

35:58

He needed to finish the sentence, complete it, because women behind bars, mothers behind bars, what we're talking about is something specific.

36:07

Women who murder their children behind bars. Now say it like that, and it doesn't make any sense anymore, does it?

36:14

If you say it in terms of the context, like if I were to say, hey, it's not my position that we throw women who murder their children behind bars, people would say, huh?

36:22

Huh? What? But he left it out on purpose because it's an emotional manipulation of the audience.

36:30

Women and mothers behind bars. Who wants women and mothers behind bars? Who wants to throw mama in jail? Well, nobody.

36:36

But if you actually finish the sentence, the mother who murders her child, then you go, hold on now. Wait a second.

36:42

Let's hold it back. Let's talk about that. Of course mothers who murder their children, according to the Christian worldview and a legal perspective, ought to be punished for it.

36:50

But he didn't say that. Also, he said it's not the position of the Southern Baptist Convention. Yeah, it is.

36:58

They voted on it. They voted on equal protection. They voted on that, and that anybody involved in killing a child in the womb should be criminalized.

37:06

That's already been voted on, so you're actually incorrect. However, you are right about one thing. It's not the position of the pro -life movement.

37:12

You're right about that. Yeah, you got that part right. You got that part right. But there's a distinction between the pro -life establishment and movement and industry and what they teach as doctrine and what the

37:20

Christian church has believed for 2 ,000 years and what the scriptures plainly teach on this issue. And so,

37:26

Pastor Brian, give us some more commentary. We'll jump right into Barber. Yeah, I want to make a really important point here.

37:33

When Brent Leatherwood said to me in Anaheim this summer at the SBC, when he said that I wasn't going to get him to say that we should throw women behind bars, and you're right, he was talking about women who murder their preborn children,

37:49

I would have had these follow -up questions for him. Okay, Mr. Leatherwood, what about women who kill their newborn children?

37:57

Should they have legal immunity? Or should women in America be able to kill their newborn children?

38:05

And if someone were to say, that's absurd, why would you even suggest such a thing? Of course it's absurd.

38:12

But then I would say, okay, so I believe that women who kill their preborn children should not be granted legal immunity and allowed to do so by law.

38:25

You believe they should. We both agree that women who kill their newborn children should be punished for doing so.

38:32

My question is, what's the difference between the preborn child and the newborn child?

38:39

Do you either A, believe that life does not begin at conception, but you really believe that life begins at birth, or B, do you simply think it's okay for some people to be murdered?

38:52

Which is it? Yeah. I just thought of something. Sorry, while you were playing that clip,

38:57

I never really thought about this before, but when we're asking who wants to put mothers behind bars or whatever, you know who they're not asking is the dads or the grandparents of those murdered babies.

39:13

Now, granted, there's going to be a lot of dads and grandparents that probably wanted that baby murdered, and they are also guilty and probably should be behind bars, but I'm sure there's a lot of dads and grandparents that are like, that was my grandchild, that was my son, that was my daughter, that woman murdered,

39:28

I want her behind bars. Nobody's asking them. How many times, Pastor Luke, over the last decade of ministry outside the abortion mill have we seen the instances where you have a father who's grieving on the sidewalk and he's bawling his eyes out because the mother is bringing his baby inside and he can't do anything about it.

39:44

He's outside and we're praying with him and he's sobbing and weeping on the sidewalk because he wants his child and she has the permission of the legislature currently to actually go in and do that against his own will.

39:58

And so, yeah, there's some tragic circumstances where you have exactly that taking place. And the government has actively discipled an entire generation of people through, you know,

40:07

Roe and all of that to believe that he has no say, legal or otherwise, in terms of his child and what happens.

40:15

He's on the outside looking in. The one who's really empowered to do this is the woman of her own volition, taking, you know, with intent, this child's life.

40:24

And so they've already stripped the man of justice. I mean, this is a justice issue all across the board for all parties involved.

40:34

And that's really at the crux of this. As I hear you guys talking about it, I think one thing to point out is you can't separate someone's belief from the practical action that they take.

40:47

Proverbs is clear about that. Whatever doctrine you end up internalizing, we'll see it in your life, for ill or not.

40:54

We'll know if you really believe it. And so the profession of your mouth better match the action of your hand.

41:00

And we can tell very clearly that in the laws that the pro -life industry publishes, the heretical belief comes out in the action that they take.

41:10

So they say one thing, but the belief that they hold is evidenced by what we see externally.

41:17

What do we really believe? Well, we see it in the law. These people, this class of people ought to be excused from responsibility.

41:25

Why? Could be cultural or otherwise. But when you come up against, you know, the solid rock of God's law and God's word, like Jesus talks about love for neighbor.

41:33

Where is he getting that? Leviticus. Leviticus 19 .15. You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.

41:44

So there is an explicit prohibition against slanting the standard of justice towards either those with advantage societally or those who don't have the advantage.

41:55

Because justice has to be applied equally to both. It has to be the same standard of measurement across the board.

42:01

And it goes on later in that very same chapter. And this is what love looks like. The law of God is loving.

42:08

Leviticus 19, what is it, 20, right at the end of the chapter, it's talking about unequal weights and measures, right?

42:16

The measurement by which we engage in an economic affair, even applying that to the issue of the standard that we use in measurement, according to what we mete out to people, according to what their due is.

42:26

If we're slanting these things, then that's going to come out in the action that we take. And it is.

42:32

It's coming out in the heretical belief that they hold is being manifested in the laws that they publish.

42:39

Right. And let's, again, get right to Barbara's comments here, but in terms of we want to approach this as Christians, like you're quoting scripture here.

42:47

We're talking about the word of God. We're talking about Christian standards here. Very different methodological approach than the establishment, the pro -life establishment is doing.

42:55

They won't be doing this. They will quote scripture a lot when they're fundraising for their pro -life work over the next year.

43:07

They'll talk about, you know, we are knit together in our mother's wombs. We're all in the image of God. They'll talk about that when they're raising funds for what they say is going to be their fight in the future, but they will not talk about Jesus, repentance and faith, murder, the law of God against killing.

43:23

And in particular, the standards here we have in scripture, for example, you mentioned unequal weights and measures.

43:29

That's in a number of places in scripture. God is, he calls it an abomination. When you are partial and you use unequal weights and measures, he calls it an abomination.

43:39

Right. So it's in the law, and then it's applied in the wisdom literature, which you're going to quote from. Exactly. And another aspect of this that applies supremely to this issue, when we talk about the heresy of the pro -life movement and them saying that the mother who kills her child, or even the father who kills their child via abortion, is to be seen as a victim and not guilty.

43:58

Scripture also says in Proverbs 17, 15, he who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the

44:07

Lord. So there's two aspects there. We usually can clearly, firmly grasp that second aspect, where it says whoever condemns the righteous is an abomination.

44:19

None of us want that. We all understand that. You get an innocent man or woman in court, condemnation coming down on an innocent man is heartbreaking.

44:26

There's whole movies and television shows right now about that very concept of people who are wrongly put on death row, or young men who are accused of crimes they didn't do, they were called guilty in court, and people throw their hands up and they say, this is an injustice, you can never do that.

44:41

You cannot condemn a righteous person. I mean, there's some moving things right now out, movies,

44:47

TV shows, I mean, they'll move you. And just you'd be horrified at the corruption around the police department at times, where they're throwing these boys in jail or something, like conjuring up and fixing the evidence in such a way.

45:02

You see that in the life of Jesus, when you have the false witnesses being gathered against him in court, everyone recognizes when you read that narrative, you're like, this is unbelievable.

45:10

How did these people have so much evil and darkness in their hearts to actually be looking for false witnesses to bring against an innocent man?

45:16

We all see that second aspect, but it's the first one we miss and has everything to do with the heresy of the pro -life establishment.

45:22

And that's where it says, he who acquits the wicked or the guilty, acquits the guilty, acquits the wicked.

45:33

So when the pro -life establishment, Brent Leatherwood, national right to life,

45:39

Louisiana right to life, when they say of the woman who brings the child in to be slaughtered, when they say not guilty, when according to God's law, they in fact are guilty and culpable, willingly bringing their child in for an abortion, and they say, no, sweetie, you are not guilty.

45:56

That is an abomination to God. It's as detested by God as you feel when you see any of the evidence of somebody in court being condemned, even though they're righteous.

46:08

You detest that. God detests when you say of somebody, they are not guilty when they in fact are guilty.

46:16

And that's what's been put into practice and official doctrine of the pro -life establishment. And now, of course, the

46:21

ERLC. So that brings us to Barber, new president of the SBC. He's been tweeting. A lot.

46:28

He's been tweeting. As Brian said, he wanted to be a unifier, but now he's coming against the voted on position by members of the

46:36

SBC and actually engaging with Southern Baptist Convention pastors who are supposed to be...

46:43

Responsible for the resolution. Yeah, responsible for the resolution. And we're supposed to be a unifier here. Okay, all right. Then let's talk about the ignorance of the tweets.

46:51

I'll let you guys start the discussion. Yeah. Well, it was the ERLC and their account on Twitter that announced the unanimous appointment of Brent Leatherwood as the next president.

47:01

And so that was the announcement. And then Pastor Dusty Devers had retweeted that tweet and said, in Louisiana this spring and at the

47:10

SBC annual meeting this summer, Brent Leatherwood sided against the innocent pre -born. Now he leads the ethics and policy arm of the

47:17

SBC. We glory in our shame. So that was the tweet that invited the response from Bart Barber, who's the newly elected head of the

47:28

SBC convention. And I can read the thread in its entirety or we can go through it a little bit at a time.

47:36

He had a long thing to say about it. Yeah, but let's go to his first tweet. Okay. Let's read that first tweet so we can engage a bit with his comments.

47:44

I want to try to make sure we do this as faithful as we can. Okay. So he retweeted and he said, quote, this tweet represents the lowest point of dishonesty to which we can descend when we sell out to the crass tone of secular politics instead of following the way of Christ.

48:03

Now that's interesting to me that not trying to assign motive here, but it makes one wonder about the projection of one's own behavior upon to someone else because we're sitting here arguing that the pro -life movement doesn't stand on scripture.

48:21

Well, what do you call that? Well, secular reasoning. That's what they're using to advance their position is this unbiblical nature of the human person and the woman and all of that and not standing on the

48:32

Bible to have the basis for their laws come across. And yet the accusation is you're engaging in secular politics instead of following the way of Christ.

48:43

Right. It's these SBC pastors and abolitionists who are saying, no, the Bible has to be the guide.

48:49

You got to stand on that. Did you read the resolution? Yeah. It's just scripture, scripture, scripture. Reason from scripture. The complaint, as everyone understands that, it's a fantastic point.

48:58

The complaint is that it's the establishment that is not standing on scripture in this fight.

49:03

Right. That's the issue. And so, Pastor Brian, go ahead and engage a bit here, too. Yeah, I mean, as I look at his tweets here, it's just incredible.

49:12

Once again, he says Deavers is attacking the consistent pro -life position of the

49:19

Southern Baptist Convention. No, Deavers is actually asserting the position of the

49:25

Southern Baptist Convention, which was voted on by the messengers. Because as Baptists, we don't believe in a top -down approach to things.

49:33

We don't believe that the president gets to decree from on high what the position is.

49:38

No, the messengers of the churches decided that abolition is the official position of the

49:46

Southern Baptist Convention. And we voted for laws that totally abolish abortion and give equal protection to the child in the womb so that no one has legal immunity to kill pre -born children.

50:01

And the president of the SBC is rejecting the official adopted position of the

50:07

SBC, and then he's slandering pastors like Dusty Deavers, who still support the official position of the

50:15

Southern Baptist Convention. And I just have to say, the way that he attacks Deavers personally is totally unbecoming not only of the leader of the largest denomination in America that has over 45 ,000 churches, but it's unbecoming of a pastor.

50:34

What kind of pastor, first off, misrepresents the other position, we can get into that in a moment, because he says that we wouldn't allow women to have ectopic pregnancies removed and things like that, which is just untrue.

50:49

It's just untrue. And either Bart Barber doesn't know it, or he doesn't care, he would rather slander us.

50:56

I don't know which it is, but he says all of these things and attacks in such a vicious way, a pastor like Dusty Deavers or myself, who simply wants to abolish abortion and who supports the official platform of the

51:13

Southern Baptist Convention to abolish abortion. It is really destructive. When our churches fund the work of the

51:20

Southern Baptist Convention, when our people give money, we give billions of dollars to the

51:29

Southern Baptist Convention. I don't know if people know this, but the SBC has over $30 billion in assets.

51:36

And now they're using six seminaries, they're using two missions agencies, they're using the

51:44

Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. They are seizing all of these things that our churches have bought and paid for, and they're using it against us because we support the official position of the

51:56

SBC, and then they slander us if we complain about it. We have a right to speak on this because as Baptists, we believe that the churches get the final say, not the president of the

52:09

SBC. Not only is he biblically wrong, but he has rejected what the churches of the

52:15

Southern Baptist Convention have said is our official position. Right. And so another comment that he made was regarding ectopic pregnancies.

52:25

It's coming, yeah. So the next couple tweets here, real quick. Since 1980, we, being the

52:31

Southern Baptist Convention, have consistently said that abortion should be illegal unless the life of the mother would be in peril if the pregnancy were to continue, such as in the case of an ectopic pregnancy.

52:41

That means, don't miss this, that Southern Baptists have not supported exceptions permitting abortion in cases of rape or incest.

52:49

Ours is not a moderate position. It is certainly not a position that is against the innocent preborn.

52:55

And then what's coming after this is kind of a laundry list of all that they've done to demonstrate the fact that they're truly pro -life, you know, taking care of, you know, pregnancy centers, funding those, all of that kind of thing.

53:06

But I think it's, what really struck me about his whole, you know, presentation here is this is exactly the kind of argumentation that's employed by the other side when it comes to the exceptional cases being weaponized as emotional devices used to tug on your heartstrings in order to eclipse the overwhelming majority of abortions and for the reasons for which they happen.

53:30

If you're bringing up ectopic pregnancies, if you're bringing up life of the mother, rape, incest, again, like those exceptional cases, we're talking about less than 10 % of all abortions.

53:41

Maybe less than that, less than 5 % of all abortions. And if you're going to adopt the premise of your enemy and the same reason that they argue against these bills, which are consistent, they say, well, you know, what about the life of the mother?

53:55

Well, you know, what if she's raped? And all of this stuff. And if you're going to adopt that line of argumentation to argue against equal protection, it's greatly concerning that that's the kind of opposition that you're mounting against this, the same type that the other side does that wants abortion on demand.

54:12

Exactly. And that's what happened to us in Louisiana. And Pastor Brian can attest to this. You know, we're there in Louisiana watching the people who a week prior voted for this to pass the hearing stage get flipped by the establishment, the pro -life establishment.

54:29

And now they're arguing on the floor against Representative Danny McCormick, a man who's a man of God, loves the

54:34

Lord, was just trying to do it right by these children. And now they're arguing against him. And the arguments that they're using are exactly what you're talking about.

54:41

They're talking about the exceptional cases. To fight against the bill that they had said they agreed with completely behind closed doors, they said that this bill is right.

54:49

It needs to pass. They said, let's do it a year from now. You had all kinds of stuff like that being suggested to us.

54:55

And we're like, no, we can't delay justice. Proverbs 3 says not to withhold good. We can't do those sorts.

55:01

That's why I read that, by the way, at the beginning of the show today. But they were using these cases like they were even lying.

55:07

They were saying, well, this would criminalize IVF. Not true.

55:13

They were saying that this would criminalize a woman who had a miscarriage. Completely not true.

55:20

And talking about things like ectopic pregnancies. These are the same arguments being used by the opposition to keep abortion legal.

55:27

These are the emotionally laden arguments that are used to lie about the bills themselves or to manipulate people's emotions so they don't want to pass them.

55:38

So let's just talk about that for a moment here because I think it's important. The issue of a miscarriage. No bill of equal protection is criminalizing a woman because of a miscarriage.

55:46

It's a fallen world. Babies die in the womb naturally. And it's always a tragic situation when that actually does occur.

55:54

I mean, I've done... I just recently did a funeral. A literal burial for a miscarriage.

56:00

Literally an actual funeral going with the casket, burying the child in a graveyard with a service surrounding it because it was a tragic situation.

56:10

Do you think in my mind as a pastor who fights against the issue of abortion and wants equal protection that I was thinking to myself while I'm doing that funeral, this mother's guilty?

56:18

No. It was tragic. We were crying our eyes out together over this tragic circumstance.

56:24

No, it is completely untrue. A miscarriage is not a willful termination of a pregnancy.

56:31

Willful termination of a pregnancy. So it doesn't even apply at all. It's emotional manipulation.

56:36

And the issue of an ectopic pregnancy or when the life of the mother is truly in danger, that's not a willful abortion either.

56:43

That's a life -saving operation where you're trying to preserve human life and it is equally as tragic as the miscarriage.

56:51

You are doing what you can in a fallen world under these circumstances to preserve human life, not just to execute a child.

56:59

It doesn't apply. And the issue of IVF. This bill does nothing to stop the good that can come from IVF but what it would do, there's no question about this, is it would actually cause people who are in the

57:12

IVF industry to firm up their commitments to the creation of life and preservation of life that they say that they want in their industry.

57:21

They want to create human life and preserve human life so that it's successfully implanted and this baby is born.

57:29

That's what they say they want. That's why they're in business. People can't get pregnant. IVF's an option. Creation, preservation, birth.

57:36

That's the train they're trying to get through. What it would say is you cannot just willy -nilly create a bunch of human lives and then destroy them.

57:44

So yeah, it would have that impact on the IVF industry actually making them be consistent with the standards they say they hold to but it doesn't do away with IVF.

57:54

It just strengthens their commitments to the creation and preservation of life. And so I'll pass it over to Brian.

57:59

Brian, I want you to answer right after this. So Bradley Pierce, our attorney who helps us to write these bills in all these states.

58:07

He responded to Barber's ignorance. Here's the point.

58:12

Mr. Barber, brother, you don't know the law. You don't understand how this works. You're clearly ignorant.

58:18

And I don't mean that in throwing a stone at you. I mean that in the classical sense. You're ignorant.

58:25

And you're leaving a public record of ignorance on this issue. When you bring up the issue of ectopic pregnancies,

58:32

Bradley Pierce wrote back to you. Sir, your ignorance here would be laughable if your claims weren't so destructive.

58:42

These screenshots disprove your claims. More in the thread. When a bill doesn't include this, and even when it does, it's existing law.

58:50

You don't need to recreate a law that already exists. In other words, what Bradley's saying there is you don't need to write in every piece of legislation, rewrite the laws that already exist in that state.

59:02

When you're writing a bill of equal protection, you're writing a bill of definition. You're writing a bill of protection. And you don't have to, in that bill you're writing that protects all human life as equal, you don't have to rehash every law that's already on the books.

59:17

Right? So you don't need to write in all the exceptions for ectopic and all the other things when those laws already are present within the state.

59:25

And so if you go look at the thread, Barber's thread, you'll see Bradley Pierce provides actual screenshots of the law itself, the law that was written, and the laws that already exist in the state of Louisiana.

59:37

And so here's the point. Mr. Barber, brother, you're wrong. You're leaving a record of ignorance.

59:43

And the record of ignorance you're leaving and what you're engaging in is actually helping to propagate the lies of the pro -choicers.

59:51

It's keeping it legal. Brother, what you're doing is destructive. Look, I've said this, and I mean it.

59:57

I'm not a perfect man. I have a lot of failures. I'm not a perfect pastor. But I can tell you right now that I have full confidence in what

01:00:06

I'm saying right now. Okay? I've said this many times. Alan Sebaugh, the man on the floor in Louisiana who fought against our bill,

01:00:16

Brent Leatherwood, who helped with the letter to kill our bill in Louisiana, these men and others like them are guilty.

01:00:24

The blood is on their hands. The babies who are dying in Louisiana are their responsibility right now.

01:00:31

In other words, they are accountable. Now, I hope these men trust in Christ, and those sins have been covered. But in terms of actually what you're guilty for, you are guilty, really guilty, for all the blood that's being shed in Louisiana right now because you resisted the bill that would have established justice for the pre -born.

01:00:47

And I fear for men like this. Mr. Barber, when you are resisting the work of the church to provide equal protection for all humans, you're fighting against it.

01:00:59

You're going to be held accountable for that. You're going to be held accountable for that. And praise God, we have a perfect Savior who forgives sins.

01:01:04

But in terms of what you're actually guilty of, there's going to be a day of reckoning, I believe.

01:01:10

And you're guilty for these things. So don't resist what God is doing because clearly there is one side here operating on the basis of Scripture and another side that is not.

01:01:20

Pastor Brian? Yeah, I wanted to kind of back up and give a little more context of how this all went down in Louisiana because it plays into what

01:01:30

Barber is saying here. So when the bill went to committee, it was on May 4th of this year.

01:01:40

And it was funny because Alan Seaball, when he voted in favor of the bill, he didn't just say yes.

01:01:47

He shouted absolutely. You see, Alan Seaball was enthusiastically supporting HB 813, the bill to abolish abortion.

01:01:55

But then just eight short days later, by May 12th, when the bill went to the

01:02:01

House floor for a vote of all 105 members of the House of Representatives, Alan Seaball led the charge to kill

01:02:08

HB 813. And what had happened was the pro -life establishment got to him and they told him, don't you dare abolish abortion in Louisiana.

01:02:19

We do not want it to be a crime for a mother to kill their children in the womb. And he got in line and he dutifully went to the microphone and he said things that he knew were lies.

01:02:29

But getting off of Alan Seaball for a moment, there was one group in that committee hearing back when all of these pro -life legislators were in support of our bill and we would have had the votes to pass the bill had we voted on May 4th before the pro -life establishment got to them.

01:02:47

There was one group in that meeting who was making all the same arguments that Bart Barber is making today.

01:02:53

They were the abortion industry lobbyists from Planned Parenthood and NARAL and others. They came into that meeting and they said, what about IVF?

01:03:01

What about women who are coerced into having abortions? What about miscarriages?

01:03:07

What about ectopic pregnancies? You would have a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy removed charged with murder.

01:03:15

And we said, no, no we wouldn't. That's not abortion and that's not prohibited under this bill.

01:03:22

Not at all. Now, Bart Barber is borrowing the arguments of the abortion industry of NARAL and Planned Parenthood since when does the president of the

01:03:35

Southern Baptist Convention use the talking points of Planned Parenthood to try to stop us from abolishing abortion?

01:03:45

This is very serious what he's doing. And the other thing is this, Bart Barber in this tweet thread and the one that came after it, he consistently talks about ectopic pregnancies being an exception in which abortion should be allowed.

01:04:03

Bart, if you hear this brother, listen very carefully. Removing an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion.

01:04:12

Abortion is not healthcare, sir. Abortion is murder. And if you don't understand that, please stop speaking about this issue publicly because the 45 ,000 churches that you are supposed to represent, you are pretending as if we somehow think that abortion is healthcare, so we have to allow it under the circumstance of an ectopic pregnancy.

01:04:36

Bart, abortion is the intentional destruction of an innocent human life.

01:04:42

Removing an ectopic pregnancy is not an abortion. It's a life -saving procedure.

01:04:50

That would not be banned under abolition bills. And when you suggest that there are circumstances in which abortion should be allowed, you are giving in to the abortion industry's argument that abortion is healthcare, so we have to allow it under these circumstances.

01:05:06

Sir, that is simply foolish, and you are helping the abortion industry when you use their arguments in that way.

01:05:14

The principle there, Pastor Brian, that you're appealing to is behind all of this. Everything that we're saying, everything that we're doing, is the principle in Scripture of the preservation of human life.

01:05:26

So what we're saying in the issue of abortion at will is the preservation of human life as a principle.

01:05:32

No, that shall not be permitted. When you're talking about circumstances that actually occur within a fallen world like an ectopic pregnancy, you're still applying the principle of preservation of human life.

01:05:43

That's the issue. Preserve human life. If you have an instance where actually both mother and baby could die unless there is a move to the preservation of human life, you have to understand it's the preservation of human life that forces you to say save life.

01:06:00

And if the only way here we can preserve human life is by saving the life of the mother in the instance of an ectopic pregnancy, you save the mother's life.

01:06:07

I often use this because I think it's easy for us to understand. If you're by the edge of a cliff and there's a car about to fall over and you've got mother and baby inside the car or two people about to die and you can only grab one of them, what are you going to do?

01:06:20

Let them both die? No. You try to save a life and that's not abortion at will.

01:06:26

And so that's a key issue here and Pastor Brian is right. These arguments have been used by the opposition to keep abortion at will legal.

01:06:37

Remember that. We've often said and you guys have probably heard this a million times over the years the issue that we constantly face where you have the leftists, the pro -choicers, pro -aborts saying rape, incest, life of the mother.

01:06:52

They will use what is less than 2 % of all abortions on record to justify the other 98 % because in reality if you were to say to them okay great, we'll give you rape, incest, life of the mother but can we go ahead and abolish the other 98 %?

01:07:07

They'll say uh -uh because that's not really what they were saying to begin with. They're trying to use that as an emotional play to get you to allow the other 98%.

01:07:16

And in this case same situation. Barber is using the arguments that have been used to kill bills of equal protection that are fallacious arguments.

01:07:24

He's using these arguments that actually maintain abortion. That's a clear instance of this actually occurring.

01:07:34

And you know it was a terrible thing. And you know Brian said something there. He just went through it quickly.

01:07:40

You mentioned that Alan Seaborg knew that the arguments that he was using were false.

01:07:46

How did he know? He knew because Pastor Brian and myself,

01:07:52

Zach Lautenschlager and Bradley Pierce had actually spent time with him days before this in meetings behind closed doors face -to -face refuting all of these arguments.

01:08:03

They were refuted. So he went to the floor knowing that these arguments were false, that they had been refuted and he used them anyways and he kept abortion legal in the state of Louisiana.

01:08:16

He knew they were false but he still used them and they were the same arguments that the pro -choicers were using against the bill but here's the thing that people need to hear.

01:08:24

Though the pro -choicers were using these arguments against the bill in Louisiana they didn't even have to show up to make them because it was actually the pro -life legislators and politicians and the establishment that was actually making them for them on the floor.

01:08:40

The pro -choicers didn't even show up. I mean that day I forget what was it Brian that day when we were in the capitol what were there like three like maybe three or four pro -choicers that actually showed up?

01:08:52

Yeah if that it was just a few. Yeah like three or four pro -choicers that showed up on the day of a bill at the capitol on the floor where there was a bill of abolition and like three pro -choicers were there in attendance because they knew they didn't have to show up.

01:09:10

It was the establishment that was making the arguments for them. With friends like that who needs enemies. Exactly.

01:09:16

But I think the question at the bottom is we know why you know progressives make these arguments where they you know pull on the emotions and you know in the name of caring about the victim enrich themselves.

01:09:32

That's how they drive through their agenda is they use the language they deconstruct it.

01:09:38

Why? To get you to care about the victim so that you support their actions and their policies but really those actions just lead to their own enrichment.

01:09:46

So we know why they're making the arguments. Rape, incest, life of the mother, ectopic pregnancy.

01:09:51

My question is why are you making the argument? Why are you using it?

01:09:56

That's exactly right and actually what I was going to say is I don't want to you know we want to be careful not to accuse

01:10:03

Bart or these men of anything but my concern is it's showing how they really feel about babies.

01:10:11

Yeah. Right. I know that's what you were thinking when you said that. Like you know that's I think that's the most surprising thing to me is coming from Christian men this why be dishonest about that?

01:10:25

Why call an abortion when you as a Christian should view an ectopic pregnancy or life of the mother as a rescue mission?

01:10:32

Why are you referring to it as an abortion? And you know the question is is that showing how you feel about babies and children?

01:10:40

Yeah. Yeah. Pastor Brian we're going to close the show I heard today. Thank you for joining us.

01:10:46

Where can people go right now to support you? How can people be praying for you? Absolutely.

01:10:52

I started a new abolitionist organization in Louisiana called Protect Life. So you can go to our website protectlifenow .org

01:11:01

you can learn about us but essentially the goal of this new organization is to pass a bill of equal protection in the state of Louisiana.

01:11:11

So if people want to give to help us in that cause we will be bringing another bill to abolish abortion in Louisiana in the next legislative session.

01:11:21

We will do this by proposing equal protection for the pre -born child in the womb. And that means that the same laws that protect your life and mine would then also protect the child in the womb so that no one has the right to kill a child in the womb in Louisiana.

01:11:38

It's very simple. That's our position. Life begins at conception so the laws which protect life should do so from the moment of conception not from the moment of birth which is the position of the pro -life establishment.

01:11:53

And you know if we as the churches of the living

01:11:59

God would come together and demand for the abolition of abortion it would happen.

01:12:05

Right. I mean Amen. We need to understand this guys. We have the opportunity to end abortion in states like Louisiana and many others across this nation.

01:12:18

But the churches have to rise up and do it. And I started Protect Life because I am absolutely committed to passing a law of equal protection in Louisiana and finally abolishing abortion in this state.

01:12:32

And we need the churches to get behind what we're doing. You're right Pastor Brian. I've said that as well that abortion will end in this nation when the

01:12:42

Christian church demands it. That's right. Absolutely right. Sounds very post -millennial like.

01:12:49

Yeah. Of us. Of you and I. And that's the truth.

01:12:55

When the Christian church rises up to actually demand it it will end. Which is why

01:13:00

Pastor Brian and Zach and Luke why we're on the show today engaging with Bart Barber's comments because what we're saying is when you're the president of the

01:13:12

SBC and you're making these fallacious arguments you are only perpetuating the problem and you're delaying justice for the pre -born because if you would be on the biblical and right and consistent side you would be a part of encouraging all of God's people in the

01:13:28

SBC to actually stand up. I'll go as far as saying this I believe this. If the entire population of the

01:13:36

Southern Baptist Convention was consistent on this issue and demanded of their legislators in their own states that they actually abolish abortion that's all we would need.

01:13:46

Just the members of the Southern Baptist Convention. I believe that. We wouldn't necessarily just need the

01:13:52

Presbyterians or whatever. Just the SBC alone if we had them so committed each person and demanding of their legislators to abolish it it'd be over.

01:14:01

We'd end it. We have over 1 ,600 Southern Baptist Convention churches in Louisiana.

01:14:08

What do you think would happen if people from 1 ,600 churches showed up at our state legislature next spring and demanded that they pass the

01:14:16

Bill of Abolition? It's over. It would pass. It's over. Yeah, those legislators who need those votes would know what their duty is.

01:14:24

So now the only question is the church going to stand up and demand it or are we going to allow abortion to continue?

01:14:29

That's right. And the issue of today's show was not to create unnecessary controversy in the body of Christ.

01:14:36

I think that we need to fight against disunity in the body. We need to be willing to look over things that are side issues.

01:14:44

We need to be able to say look, we have these disagreements but it's okay. Let's serve the Lord together. Let's fight together. Let's do what's right together.

01:14:51

But this is an issue where you have to have unity. You have to have consistency together and look,

01:15:01

I'll end it with this. Brian's right. If we could get those 1 ,600 Southern Baptist Convention churches in Louisiana to do what's right before God they'll end abortion.

01:15:10

Yeah. They'll end it. And that's the same for every state in our union and so let's do it. And Barbara's comments are not helping and so I'll just give another invitation.

01:15:20

This is such an important issue. Brother, Barbara, if you see this I want to encourage you.

01:15:26

We would fund a sit down with Pastor Brian, myself and others who are leading in this movement.

01:15:34

You're talking to the people who are responsible for this stuff. We are with a number of churches across the country but there's a small group of sort of leadership that works these bills and gets them in place.

01:15:46

We'll sit down at a round table. We'll fund the entire thing so we can talk face to face as brothers and have understanding and so I'll give that invitation.

01:15:54

We will fully fund that sit down privately so we can understand one another and we can glorify

01:15:59

God together and have unity around this issue and so there's the invitation. I hope you take it. Pastor Brian, thank you, brother.

01:16:06

We love you, man. Thank you for coming on the show last minute as well. Thank you for standing for the truth, guys. Thank you, brother.

01:16:12

Love you, bro. Looking forward to seeing you soon. Looking forward to more work in Louisiana. Louisiana. Absolutely. Louisiana.

01:16:17

All right, brother. All right, guys. Thank you so much for watching the show today. Go to endabortionnow .com

01:16:23

to sign your churches up to get free training and resources. Save lives. Don't forget to also give there all the states that we're going into next year with all the bills of abolition, all the churches we're raising up to do it.

01:16:34

We need your support. Prayerful, financial support. Endabortionnow .com That's Luke the

01:16:40

Bear. So real quick, I was going to... We didn't get to talk about Ireland. Sorry for those that were...

01:16:45

We'll get more into that hopefully next week. Yeah. But you know, I was going to say, you know what the worst part of that trip was?

01:16:51

Dealing with NSA .gov. NSA .gov. They were awful coming back.

01:16:57

You know what I'm saying? But you know who's... Who is awesome is NSA .edu.

01:17:02

Yes. They're great and they're partnering with us. NSA .edu. New St.

01:17:08

Andrews, Moscow, Idaho. You should get your kids there. I reached deep in the bag for that one. Yeah, yeah. Get your kids there for classes.

01:17:13

We love those guys. They're doing great work out there. Make sure you check out NSA. If you've got kids going to college,

01:17:19

NSA. You'll love it. Luke the Bear. Peace out. Zach Conover. Director of Communications at End Abortion Now.

01:17:26

If you sign your church up, you're going to be talking to him. You get free training and free resources. I'm Jeff the Culminator Ninja. We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.