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Steve Cooley, Associate Pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, MA & cohost of “No Compromise Radio”, who will discuss:
“A Former MORMON’s Deliverance From the LATTER-DAY SAINTS”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host.
Chris.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this eighth day of February 2017.
I am delighted that we have as a guest today for the very first time on iron sharpens iron Pastor Steve Cooley who is associate pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, Massachusetts. And he co-hosts the no compromise radio program today.
We are going to be discussing his journey out of Mormonism into biblical Christianity and more importantly into the saving embrace of the true Christ of the scriptures. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron Steve Cooley.
Thank you very much. Chris. It's a blessing to be here. Well, I'd like you to let our listeners know something about Your upbringing as a child I'm assuming that you were raised in the Mormon faith from Infancy, but I don't know that for a fact.
I just know that you spent over 20 years as a Mormon and then you later Converted by God's mercy To biblical Christianity, but if you could explain something about your upbringing.
Well, I think my my mom came under my paternal grandmother's infant. My mom wanted to date my dad and I think she joined the church to kind of curry favor and then. After they got married and I was from the member of the church school.
We would go from 620 in the morning. Tell my friends or most of my friends. Well, I've interviewed quite a number of.
Mormon converts to evangelical Protestantism and Many of them in fact, I think probably all of them that I can remember Said that they actually loved being a Mormon. Their conversion had nothing to do with some ugly hideous Event in their lives that had nothing to do with some kind of oppressive Cultic leadership that controlled every movement they made or anything like that.
They thoroughly enjoyed being Mormon. They loved being Mormon. In fact when they discovered that the Mormon faith the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was a counterfeit Christianity they were devastated.
They faced a Frightening journey ahead to leave what they cherished for so many years now. I don't know if that's the case with you, but tell us something about your attitude towards Mormonism.
Well.
It's similar in the beginning. In other words, I would when I got out of the army back in Long Beach Long Beach, California or Long Island, New York. Long Beach, California. Okay. I I grew up in Southern California and Ironically, even though I lived in West Covina fantastic sports I love the people there and I loved being.
And I would agree with that was no and the problem and I think of my Mustang a quorum that we see how I'm going to Become a god because I can't ever really seem to. It sounds like Martin Luther the struggle that he went with.
In a sense it is. I mean, I'm no Martin Luther in the sense of the impact of my life. But I certainly had that awareness that in Mormonism ultimately, he's not Mormonism.
Well, I think that even though we've addressed this topic many times in fact After this interview is over if anybody would like to go to the archive at iron sharpens iron radio calm and type Mormon in the search engine.
You will probably get quite a number of past Interviews that I've conducted on Mormonism and there's even more that have yet to be added to that website because I have The old archive from my old days in New York broadcasting and WNYG and WGBB Radio and that website is no longer Working.
It has been taken down and we are Hopefully going to get all of those interviews eventually Incorporated into the new or current iron sharpens iron website but I think that it is in order obviously for those of our listeners who are really puzzled by Why we're making a big deal out of Mormonism because they seem like such wonderful Christian people I think we have to make it make a clear distinction.
At least a summary of what? Mormonism teaches on the major issues of faith in contrast to what we believe the scriptures teach as Bible-believing.
Evangelical Christians, you know, it's and After I got done with that into them and to just describe to them what teaching Mormons. They have a wrong view of God wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong with them because that Mormons are deprived was once like us.
That we can become like God and God and so, you know. On and on and on the number of and they are.
Very deceptive in the 21st century and I'm not even going to try to Impugn motives to people that I don't know because they may not view it that that they are being. They may not view it that way that they are being intentionally deceptive but.
The.
The old Mormonism of your grandmother is not the Mormonism of the 21st century. In as far as the public relations approach and the methodology of evangelism I can remember Meeting a Mormon missionary.
In fact inviting a Mormon missionary into my living room in the 1980s when I was a brand-new Christian. Actually to Mormon missionaries came after I replied to a commercial on TV if I wanted to have a book of Mormon hand delivered to my home by a Mormon elder.
I Purposely responded to it so I could evangelize these people.
And.
Had probably more zeal than knowledge back then. I was a new convert, but I seemed to get the message across very clearly. And the approach that the The young Mormon elder had in my living room. He was very extremely polite.
But he made it clear that we had different religions. When I just recently bumped into some very nice guys in the streets of Carlisle recently Young hip Guys in their early 20s, I'm assuming Who were extremely friendly and They were they were taking a totally different approach in that.
They were trying to convey a message to me that Mormonism was just a different denomination of Christianity. They didn't use that exact terminology. But they were basically saying in fact in a very rehearsed way.
As if it was something memorized one of the young men said to me. You've probably heard that Mormons think that they're the only true Christians and that only true religion on earth. That's not true. We're Christians just like you we just have some differences, you know, it was like a Speech that he gave me and I informed him that that that this is a recent phenomena that was totally absent from Mormon history since its inception in the 19th century and But anyway, if you could respond to what I just said if you confirm with what I'm saying.
Yeah, I mean I know I can remember called Mormon night at Disney and basically they would be trying to hand us tracks saying You know, if you're a Mormon, you're going to hell and we just we Mormonism I mean those two against the truth nothing like that.
So then to fast-forward a little bit after I get saved I was working in a jail in Los Angeles County and one of my co-workers was a returned missionary from the Mormon Church. And so he was kind of trying he was coming alongside me the way, you know more this Nouveau Mormonism, you know, I said, I I know that you're not Christian going what and I go did not exist in the Jesus.
In fact, they one of the things that trips people up is that they very often use the same terminology But have a different dictionary. Glenn Beck. Whose political views I very often? have complete harmony with not all the time, but I have a lot of Similarities in my points of view with Glenn Beck.
I tend to be a conservative libertarian in many regards and I am very Happy when I hear him commenting on various political issues because I find myself Just saying yes to everything that he is saying or nearly everything.
But Glenn Beck has been really leading Christians evangelicals to believe that he is also a Evangelical just like they are right and they because he you very often uses terminology that would make them think that like like for instance, I could I could even remember seeing a.
A.
Discussion on the internet. That he was having on his blog. I'm assuming it was. I can't remember exactly the forum it was but Glenn Beck was having a a back-and-forth Dialogue on the internet with a friend of mine Deborah Antigone.
Oh who is a former Jehovah's Witness? Who came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and he was getting irritated that she did not view him as a Fellow Christian as a brother in Christ and he said look, I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin lived a perfectly sinless life and.
He.
Died for the sins of Mankind and rose again and is seated at the right hand of the father. I believe the same thing that you Believe. End of story now. That wasn't verbatim what he said. But it was very you as a basically a paraphrasing of what I remember him saying.
He said something that made it would make a Christian think that he was in agreement with us about core Essentials about the faith, but obviously he has got a different dictionary when he is using terms even born of a virgin.
Because the Mormon faith teaches that Mary actually had a sexual union with with God the Father did did She not in their in their theology.
Right, but it's a lot of the the lesser Synostasis meetings about it. The the real theology would go on during the priesthood meetings where there were men only and. You know even after that's not something that.
So, you know the idea of Jesus being that created of mankind being inherently evil sinful, you know the original sin. I mean, it's right in their statement of that. All men are going to be punished. Fall.
In other words, the fall has no impact.
No negative impact doesn't. Don't. I think that that's like a it actually wonderful event of some kind.
Yes, because without it, you know, we couldn't progress Adam kind of now. I was surprised that you.
Were Fighting against the Trinity as a Mormon because I thought that they used some kind of Trinitarian language. I'm not saying that they actually believe in the historically understood Concept of the Trinity going back centuries in the creed the great creeds of Christendom, but.
But don't they use some kind of a Trinitarian language?
Well, what we've been a son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost and you listen to that you go as a Mormon I would argue not, you know more like as a you know. And how. Kill it. And there's a lot of pretty much except second thing you in fact is really isn't that much different than us and we can be like God and.
These things are. And.
Obviously one of the pillar Doctrines that we as Christians believe Bible believing Christians is the substitutionary death of Christ on Calvary where he paid the penalty of sin for all his people. How would this Be a different definition of what Mormons believe the death of Christ was all about.
Well, I I don't I don't think the penalty part. I don't. I mean it's hard to even explain. Believe all you want. But you have to be baptized either in this life in the next life and spirit. Don't worry about it.
You get another chance in the next life, you know that all that appointed, you know. It's appointed. The man wants to die and then to judgment, you know, that's that's yeah.
My late uncle Donald who actually wrote a book on my family's ancestry When he was doing the genealogy research. He was relying heavily upon the genealogical library of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because they have the largest Genealogical library, I believe in the world.
Because of that very reason that they baptized the dead and he was telling me that our ancestors have been Baptized as many as he knew of were baptized in proxy by Mormons. Who were baptized for the dead.
But so going back to the the atonement or the the death of Christ. Did they believe that it was a propitiatory sacrifice as we do that that Christ was? Turning away the wrath of the Father From us and taking it upon himself To save the his people from his sins every single sin.
I I want to say I want to say yes. I cannot remember ever hearing a message about that. This is not a top of seminary in high school. Not wickedness never, you know sin suffering and misery I mean to get and then actively work against it.
Example would be Judas is scared all the miracles and then undermined it, you know, in fact, let's pick up where we left off there.
Our email address. If you'd like to join us on the air today, our Email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.
Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. If you prefer to remain anonymous perhaps you are a Mormon or perhaps Your your spouse is a Mormon and you just don't want to identify yourself.
I understand that and we will. We will honor your request if you choose to remain anonymous when writing us. That's chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back with Steve Cooley and his conversion from Mormonism into Biblical Christianity, so don't go away.
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Welcome back. This is Chris arms. And if you just tuned in to our program our guest today for the full two hours is Steve Cooley. Who is associate pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, Massachusetts and co-host of the no-compromise radio program?
We are discussing a former Mormons conversion to evangelical Christianity. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Arnzen at gmail .com. And that we do have a couple of listeners already wanting to have their questions asked but I'm going to get a little bit more Background on the Mormonism before I proceed with their questions.
We were talking about hell prior to the break and I have heard from some former Mormons that only a Mormon apostate is Going to hell for eternity. Is is that true? Or what was your understanding of that?
Because you you came close to saying that You have to have a really solid understanding of Mormonism and reject it before going to hell.
But do you actually have to be a Mormon or Mormon apostate? I should say. Yeah, I would. For example when I I Mean, I was sort of hoping that when I wrote my name. And I and I gave my testimony call me in and hold it.
You're in danger of going to. You don't want to be an apostate. Exactly urgent. And I really think reviewing this or my understanding of handful of people and and the reason for that leaf in the pre-existence and because earned a certain level of it's not a very compelling reason to.
Leave whatever religious system or even way of life that you have And become a Mormon if the only people are going to hell are the those that really understand and are Practicing Mormonism and then abandon it.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah, you're putting yourself more in jeopardy by by becoming a Mormon it would seem especially since They believe that a true Mormon can Fall out of that and and become apostate.
Now, obviously you and I believe in apostasy, but we believe that As Calvinists, we believe that those who apostatized Were not truly born-again believers. They were false converts right, but they they so obviously even when you become a Mormon you have no guarantee that you always be a Mormon and So it would seem to me a very Poor reason to join them when you when you're kind of You know gonna have a good enough Eternity anyway, if you reject what they teach, well, yeah.
I I think when you're talking about where they talk about family sealed Eternity so they would know. A lot of people may have never heard that but it is true that Mormons believe that if they are.
Faithful Mormons. They will become gods of their own planet in the afterlife.
Yes.
And is that only for male Mormons or is that also something that female Mormons of a promise for?
Well, only the males would practice at all because and.
Now what in Mormon theology is the difference between? Jesus Christ and God the Father and What are the origins of each?
Well, he wants a man like us. There's an infinite.
Number of.
Among those were among those spirit children and so was a rebellion in that pre-existence. And One third and God the Father was a man just like you and I who earned his way to godhood. Yes, and Then Jesus did the same here the way I have to break in here in case somebody's tuning in late.
This is Mormon theology. We're talking about not what we believe. This is the conch or the the 180 degree polar opposite of biblical Christianity, I'm not saying this to mock My Mormon friends and neighbors.
But it's just true. There is such a stark contrast Between Mormonism and biblical Christianity that it boggles the mind how anyone could think they are compatible with each other.
The Holy Spirit, what are the. What is the Holy Spirit or who and What do you know the origins of the Holy Spirit as far as the Mormons define the Holy Spirit?
Yeah, I'm not really clear what his origin is. I know that they refer to him as a person. I mean, so I mean, it's the Pneumatology nailed down at least and is the Holy Ghost something different in their theology.
Well, the Holy Ghost is just the Holy Ghost is the language. In fact, you know, I mean we would never in speech. We would never say the My church one of these two things is true. He said that because one of those two, you know, you have to it all comes down to who do you believe.
When they when they don't know. Because it's in their articles of faith that the you know, the Bible can be riddled with errors.
Yeah.
I think isn't the phrase that the Bible is the Word of God in so much as it has been accurately translated or something like Yes, and it's interesting that they have a Joseph Smith Translation and they don't even use it.
That is that is mind-boggling to me, right?
I mean if he if he took the time to do it and to correct it and everything else you would think that that would. That would be the one that they would use but they don't they're their key.
Primary founding prophet. They don't even use his translation which at least the general public in Mormonism doesn't use it.
So unless there's anything further that we should bring up about the main tenets of the faith of Mormonism How they contrast with Scripture. I'm going to start moving into More of the details of your own conversion, but one thing that it just popped into my head because you mentioned earlier about God being a creator don't they really Believe that God is not in its fullest Truest sense of the term a creator.
He doesn't he reorganize matter because matter is eternal.
Yes, that is correct matter is eternal and and. You know, but yeah, they sort of nothing and I know that they also.
Believe that God the Father not Jesus Christ here the God the Father has a body of flesh and blood and bone just like we have and in fact, I.
Heard.
One of the Mormon presidents In a documentary that I'm going to mention in a minute mocking the Westminster Confession of Faiths Description of God being spirit and they believe that that is one of the most hellish Teachings that has ever been summoned up from the evil heart and mind of man.
Is that teaching that God is spirit?
Which is just shocking. He said that right? Yes. So again, it comes down to who do you believe?
Jesus or the. And I want I want to promote this video because it's an excellent video that has been created by.
Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah a Suburb of Salt Lake City. It is a congregation within the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination and my friend pastor Jason Wallace Created this really masterful Documentary and I'm not just saying that because I provide some of my own voiceovers for narration.
I'm actually the voice of Brigham Young and a couple of other people in that documentary, but it's really a professional high quality documentary and you could view that absolutely free of charge at LDS dot video.
LDS dot video that's the website and that is a production of Christ Presbyterian Church Magna, Utah. Their Website is gospel utah .org Gospel utah .org and we thank pastor Jason Wallace and the congregation of Christ Presbyterian Church For doing such a magnificent job.
In fact, the the premise of this documentary which is titled an earnest plea to Latter-day Saints Is that since Joseph Smith? Condemned all of Christendom as being false with a specific emphasis on Presbyterianism.
Basically turned the tables on the Latter-day Saints and And in defense of themselves since Joseph Smith their prophet Targeted them as a false denomination they revealed So many deceptions that were perpetrated by Mormon prophets.
Where they were teaching the public one thing and doing something else and teaching something else among their own people even the the practice of polygamy Which was the original practice of the Mormons?
Before they under threat of Of the government to have their property seized from them and they faced imprisonment they They abandoned that teaching through a convenient revelation from God that that was no longer to be practiced.
But He cites in this documentary. Jason Wallace cites in this documentary the writings from Joseph Smith lying that that he is a Monogamous man married to one wife. And it was clear from the historical record that he had already many wives when he was saying that.
So and you're not talking about, you know Mormons have have used the Retort when I have brought things up like this. Well you have You know, you're a Baptist. There are Baptist pastors that lie and and do all kinds of horrible things.
Yeah, but they're not my prophet and That that came to be very clear in a conversation I had with a young Mormon in my living room. When it came to the racism of Mormonism Where it wasn't until believe it or not folks until the 1970s when black men could enter into the Mormon priesthood you couldn't even be in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir at that point, I believe and That the reason for that is the loss of tax-exempt status that they faced for their Churches and colleges and so on so they had a convenient revelation again that the blacks had equal status with whites.
But when I brought that up to the young Mormon missionary, he said well, what are you talking about? You have Baptists in the Ku Klux Klan. And I said, yeah, I believe that there will be many Baptists in hell.
Do you believe Joseph Smith and Brigham Young could possibly be in hell? I mean you're talking about your prophets. Not not some moron who who pretends to be a Baptist pastor.
But.
Now let's hear about. I know that you indicated something about it earlier, but I want to hear more about Your early introduction to biblical Christianity. Who who these Christians were. How this came about.
Where you started to question your long-held Mormon beliefs. I.
It's interesting to me because I really I you know thinking back even to high school and whatnot I didn't really know anybody, you know born-again Christian. I had most of my friends were Mormons. But I you know I didn't really know any born-again Christians when I was in the army that I met my first me I I had Mormonism which in fact, let's pick up.
Let's pick up those ways after our next station break.
If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're gonna be right back after these messages with our interview of former Mormon Steve Cooley and Before I even go to our Messages from our sponsors I want to air for you The last interview it's a very brief interview.
With Mike O 'Fallon who runs Sovereign Alliance and Sovereign Cruises an Organization that you will see. Dr. James R. White of Alpha to make a ministry is one of my dearest friends and a Frequent guest on iron sharpens iron, although he hasn't been on That frequently lately because of his busy schedule, but somebody that I have known since 1995 when I started a decade-long series of debates between dr. White and Roman Catholic apologists and Many other debates with liberal Protestants leaders and cults or or pastors within cults Homosexual activists and so on.
We Have now a an interview with Michael Fallon who runs Sovereign Alliance and he's going to tell you more about this organization and the activities that they conduct and This is the last of the interviews that I haven't already aired from the g3 conference and then we'll be going to some more Words from our sponsors, so don't go away.
Chris Arnzen here again at the g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and I have with me for an interview. Michael Fallon the CEO and founder of Sovereign Alliance and there's a lot of things that go under the umbrella of Sovereign Alliance that we're going to hear about.
But it's an honor and privilege to have you for the very first time on iron sharpens iron. Michael Fallon. Great to be here with you Chris and tell us something about your own personal background in regard to the theology you embrace and how you eventually Came to use this passion for what you believe to actually meld it into a wonderful organization that not only provides people with the enjoyment of recreation but also is able to be a Platform or even a pulpit if you will to edify the minds of those who are participating in these activities.
Well Chris Years ago, I was of course born a cradle Catholic and raised in the Roman Catholic Church Catechized my entire family Has in some way or the other worked for the Roman Catholic Church at some point in their lives.
But yet the Lord really Brought me into his fold through a Bible study in Galatians when I was pursuing a very attractive Chinese gal. That I happened to meet at my gym and She invited me to a Bible study, you know being someone who was Pretty regular practicing Catholic.
I really thought I knew it all and But we got into this Bible study in Galatians and I saw that there was nothing that I could do of my own works. Nothing that I did was pleasing to God only what he does and in through me would be pleasing to him.
So in essence, I couldn't take credit for anything that I do. Only the only thing that I can really rely upon is what the Lord has done for me as salvation is all of God and not of me. I come to that realization.
Chris it You know really shocked and rocked my world but it sent me on a quest to try to find out more and that introduced me to folks such as Josh McDowell and Norm Geisler in the beginning. Unfortunately, I would pick up Books by folks like Dave Hunt and right away.
I knew that well, that's a giant straw man right there Has nothing to do with the truth kind of made me question on whether things were Whether the Protestants had it right or not. But then I remember driving from where I was working at the time as a tennis professional Back home after work and this Bible Answer Man program came on and there was a debate I guess starting that Monday each day of the week between dr. James White and Tim Staples.
And boy that really brought me around. So it was a question, you know in several things in the way the Lord worked is that through the Bible study in Galatians? Then through the the Bible study in the debate with dr. White and Tim Staples that really helped me to see that There were men out there that were studied that had answers that were able to refute a lot of the arguments that I'd heard before from the Catholic Church and Through the years then as I saw that the Protestant Church that I had joined Really didn't know much about church history.
They didn't know a lot about their own faith. And let alone about the Catholic faith. When I saw this I decided I would try to put together a conference and Use the funds from a cruise that we put together with the same speakers.
One of which was dr. White. To see if we could put this on without using any funds from the church. And we pulled it off and we kept on pulling that off until we started expanding into other things and actually became a company.
As many years now we have several different companies that do conferences conventions events Concerts, but then also travel events cruises tours. Especially those that I have kind of a didactic Flavor to them teaching.
So we work with dr. RC Sproul with dr. James White Tom Askew and the founders Dr. Albert Moller and Southern Seminary. So we've had an opportunity to really work with my heroes and that's always exciting.
Yeah, praise God for that. What events that you do you have on the horizon that you care for more listeners?
Well, dr. White is going to be doing a tour coming up in Germany and that'll be starting in Berlin.
Wittenberg.
Erfurt Eisenach Eisleben and then finally ending in Frankfurt, but then an extension that can then take you into Calvin's Geneva at the end if you so choose, but in each one of those stops you look at Erfurt.
That's of course where where Luther was in the monastery and where he performed his first mass. And then you end up in Eisenach where Vartburg Castle is where he composed the New Testament in German. And then of course Eisleben where he was born and where he died.
So all of these different spots along with Heidelberg. Will be included in the tour and we'll be taking time in each one of these spots. Making sure that we don't just see take a picture but really have teaching while we're there as well.
That's one event that's coming up. We have another event with Ligonier Ministries. Where we'll be taking a river cruise ship from Prague all the way to Wittenberg and then staying there for another convention in Wittenberg with with Ligonier Ministries.
Al Mohler will be with us. We will have dr. Steve Lawson. Dr. Bob Godfrey. Men such as that so those are really exciting and coming up very soon now.
The last event that you mentioned involves a cruise to do all of these upcoming events that you specifically mentioned Involve cruises. No.
Most are tours. The Elbe River cruise that we're doing is on a small river cruise ship. And that's a great experience if you've never done it before. We only have a few cabins left on that but that one will be more or less.
The cruise ship is both your Boutique hotel and your bus taking you right to the center of the city. So it's exciting. It's a great way to travel. You don't get out in the ocean at all. You're right there on the Elbe River.
It's very intimate in the way that it's done. It's exciting no other than the fact that you're already orchestrating Events that perhaps have come through your own creativity and contacts. Let's say a listener happens to be a pastor of a church or perhaps the president of a parachurch organization.
Or just a creative and ambitious person who says, you know I'd like to run a cruise of some kind and gather together some speakers that I know and etc. Is there a way for sovereign cruises or sovereign Alliance to work with such a individual or group or church?
Oh, yeah, we take groups as we say anywhere from from 20 to 20 ,000. It's quite a large range and a lot of times some of the the best. Experiences that we have are with people that have 20 to to 40 folks that we can really carve up something.
Especially for them in the way that the pastor wants to have it done with an emphasis. Let's say on teaching and history whether that be we're putting one together right now for dr Pratt out of reform theological seminary that will be both Israel and then as well The journeys of Paul, so we're gonna be have an opportunity to do Israel then head up and do Athens Corinth Thessaloniki.
So both, you know a tour and cruise combination, but to be able to do it and have the emphasis that that particular teacher Pastor.
Theologian wants to emphasize. Well, please make sure you give our listeners all of the contact information you care to provide. Sure. It's.
Sava Alliance, that's www .savalliance .com. Or you can reach us at eight seven seven seven six eight two seven eight four and. Any one of our extensions. For one of our kind folks the sovereign would love to be able to help you.
That's solve Alliance abbreviation for sovereign SOV as in victory Alliance. Or dot-com dot-com, I'm sorry in taco. Saw the lines calm. Well, thank you so much Michael Fallon. Thank you for the time and I look forward to perhaps having you back in the future and have you give a report on some.
Of these events after they occur. Sounds great. Thank you, sir.
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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man. If I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do Than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity. But since that wasn't the Apostles priority, it must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate Love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting Community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons Worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.
You can find us at Providence Baptist Church Ma .org that's Providence Baptist Church ma .org or even on sermon audio calm. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.
Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WL ie radio www .w lie 540 a .m. Calm we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you.
And we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor.
Welcome back.
This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is Steve Cooley associate pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, Massachusetts and co-host of No Compromise Radio.
We are discussing his conversion out of Mormonism into Evangelical Protestantism. If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Before we return to the interview I just want to remind you that iron sharpens iron is an urgent need of new sponsors.
Additional sponsors to help fund the broadcast and keep it on the air. If you are a pastor a business owner a Professional person like a lawyer a doctor a dentist a chiropractor. Perhaps you are just a very benevolent individual or you know of someone who is please contact me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and Let me know that you are interested in either advertising on iron sharpens iron or merely donating to us. Or if you know of a person I should contact that would be interested in doing one of those in fact.
If you just want to donate yourself to iron sharpens iron radio, just go to the website iron sharpens iron radio .com and the third option at the top of the page is Support click on support and the mailing address will be there on where you can send a check.
Checks are made payable to either cruciform media CRU C as in Christopher I F is in Frank OR M as in Michael cruciform media or iron sharpens iron radio and Of course iron sharpens iron radio will be a lot easier for you to remember iron sharpens iron radio Is where you can make the checks out to and the address is available on that website iron sharpens iron radio com when you click support we are now back to discuss a Former Mormons conversion to evangelical Christianity with our guest Steve Cooley and before the break.
Steve You were getting into your early introduction to Bible believing Christianity. You said that you didn't really know a lot of born-again Christians and so on. If you could pick up where you left off there.
Yeah, I think really I'll just kind of skip ahead. I think what and again not because the people was never lived in five congregations and. Which you could just imagine in one building and you're each supposed.
And because we were that they wouldn't build a new building after week after week. We got Messages. I knew it wasn't, you know, the church wasn't called Mormon murder Mountain Meadows massacre. Yeah. No, no.
It was the the salamander letter. Oh, yeah a series of forgeries done by Mark Hoffman blowing up like a bishop or something.
I remember that was that in the 80s or 90s. I remember that yes.
And and what struck me though was that I mean the whole book was fascinating, but what struck me was at the end Gordon B. Hinckley, mr Hoffman and. What bothered me the most was salamander letter? Which the idea was that it's the golden plate Book of Mormon led there by any.
And. So that. And they should have known if they actually should have known that it had to be a fraud, right? You would think yes, so so that bothered me a lot that they would buy it out. Why spend money on it, right?
Why not just. So that bothered me but again the weight of my own sin my life just kind of unraveled. Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. And while I was in. Not you know one night they were tired.
We went around the room same time because people were saying things like my higher power and would say my hair. I'd say my hair power. Now right then see see what you did. You can't do that in a 12-step meeting, right?
I actually have done it at 12-step meeting. I'm a person who's been delivered out of alcoholism and and I had I was a part of a group session with a psychologist When I was in a rehab years ago and the leader the counselor was saying things that I couldn't Control myself.
In fact one point I said to her I Think it's ridiculous to believe that a chair Could be God and she said oh you can't have a chair as your God. It has to be something living like a tree. So I said I'll say okay, so then you cut the tree down and make a chair out of it.
Is it still a God?
That's straight out of Isaiah. The meeting that night and I and I just thought to myself because what I did my cheeks were sore by the time I left home and I just thought you know, I I Don't know who does in my mind.
There had to be a good Who you know just did horrible things and and so I thought well, who do I know? You know that it seems like they know God. Well, there was one Christian I worked with and so I went to him and and I said you'll have that Bible because I'd always given him punchline.
You know, come on. You're gonna make a joke out of my faith again. What's the punchline. And I said no and I told him about the 12-step meeting and I told him I said I went home just Thinking I know there's a God and I don't know who he is.
And it seems like you do said well Yeah, we still have church in Los Angeles because I knew they were wasting time and they had nothing good to offer these guys. And you know, etc, etc. Now I found myself a wonderful Counselor and I just thought really bad advice only knowing everything like who I am and the idea that Jesus think well.
That's if you could this may seem like a very simple question.
But there are many people over the years who have Submitted questions for my guests to iron sharpens iron who are not even Christians some even Muslim. If you could please summarize what the true Gospel is.
Well the true gospel is God is holy and just. That he owns everything that he gets to set. He's going to punish and to make up for my sins. So I stand before him condemned I have nothing to offer him turn only God as man, but he never did anything that he wasn't supposed to do.
He never had an unclean thought he never did anything Voluntarily for my sins and then more than that my sin. And when he looks at me, not that I am Righteous in and of myself Christ and heaven not because of it.
Now what eventually led you to Bethlehem Bible Church where you are now an associate pastor after I got saved.
I started and you'll laugh it to a Bible study. That's what I call the anti MacArthur Bible study at MacArthur's Church. Thing was done. They were just Phil Johnson and and.
Anyway, we were these actual members of the the man was a deacon. He was also my fundamentals of it took years, but they finally so I'm at that to some inmates and we had a riot in the we're on lockdown and he wound up just talking to me and as I Mike it and Mike is the senior Mike was.
He was also a seminary student. He was just wrapping up a study when I entered into the Simmons. And here is West Boylston, Massachusetts.
Tell us something more specifically about Bethlehem Bible Church.
Well, Bethlehem Bible Church, we are. We look like an abandoned pizza. I mean we've right now my preach by the way being a.
Native New Yorker and a lover of real New York pizza. I think all Pizza Hut should be abandoned. There goes that sponsor.
All that and a question about that, but it's not the bill people were you know, I mean we're intermediate range and.
Every one of them have been guests except for Robert Raymond.
And he won't be now, but yes. Yeah, but he was such a dear man brought his wife and we people are wondering he's in glory for eternity. Yes. Yes, we're we're fine that we're historic premil or no. We're still huh?
Interesting. That's interesting because you're confessionally.
Reformed with the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and so that you are the first Dispensationalist congregation I have heard of that is a Adheres to the 1689.
Well, there might be one or two more. I think that you know, there are a few of us, but we just we. I Mean. When I first got there, you know, Mike had me edit the 1689 and just kind of, you know take out a lot of stuff and.
By the way.
One of my dearest friends and largest sponsors of iron sharpens iron pastor Ron glass of waiting River Baptist Church on Long Island is a thoroughgoing Calvinist and dispensationalist and He knows that I am NOT but still loves the program enough to be one of my most faithful and enthusiastic supporters.
Well, that's really when you get down to it. Like what we're talking about today. I'm I mean my own conviction is that I think eschatology I wouldn't even call it and you know, what what it's the gospel Undone before a holy god.
They're like clean man who lives among unclean people. I have an unclean lips and yeah I have no hope. And it is only the good amen. And for those of our listeners who want to learn more about.
Bethlehem Bible Church, you can go to BBC church dot org. BBC church org seems like there's too many C's in that URL but it is BBC church org and We're gonna go to our final break right now and we're going to go to some of our listeners Who wrote in questions and you could also join them if we have time.
At chris arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n ze n at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Steve Cooley and The answers to your questions. God willing. Iron sharpens. Iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving South Central, Pennsylvania.
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I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on Wlie radio www .wlie 540 a .m. Dot-com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.
Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.
This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with little less than a half hour to go is Steve Cooley Associate pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church of West Boylston, Massachusetts and co-host of no compromise radio.
We have been discussing his conversion out of Mormonism into evangelical Christianity of which of course We would believe is biblical Christianity. The only true Christianity and If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Before I go to some of those Questions from our listeners Steve tell us something about no compromise radio.
Well, we we started just broadcasting locally in our area. I'm on Tuesday. That's hence the Tuesday guy thing. Monday is a sermon for Mike. Tuesday is He and I talking about Evangelical as a compromise radio.
Calm to be now with the Internet from Australia.
Yes, iron sharpens. Iron has listeners all over the world including Australia the United Kingdom Germany Sweden Denmark. We had at least one listener from Japan years ago. Write an email to me after she heard an interview on the moonies that I conducted while in New York.
She was a former Mooney who had come to the saving knowledge of Christ as a result of listening to dr James R. White actually on the internet and.
She.
Unfortunately was having a really difficult time in Japan finding a biblically faithful church because less than 1 of the population in Japan is Christian. It's not easy to find a Bible-believing church.
But we have listeners all over the place and all over the United States. I've heard from every state so far except Hawaii for some reason. I've never heard from a Hawaiian Listener, but I've heard from Alaskan listeners and other people from other states, but.
Well, let me go to some of the listener questions. We have our J and White Plains, New York. Who wants to know what was the reaction of your Mormon family friends and fellow? congregants. Have any of them disowned you or Shunned you in any way.
Have any of them followed you into your new faith in Christ.
RJ that's a that's a great question. Actually, my brother was Saved unlike me. I did not go on a mission. He went on a full-time mission and he present The Mormon Gospel and so eventually he left the Mormon Church.
Got not really so much. In fact, one of my uncles died and both times I was blessed to be able to preach the gospel at their funeral and In each case really ramped it up with my uncle on my uncle's funeral.
Not necessarily to offend them but to make it clear that we were talking about different things so far. No, they've been very misguided and that's kind of the old-school Mormon view which is Mormons are their own minds that well, guess what.
RJ you have won a book not by my yes.
Steve Cooley, I don't know if you've written a book yet Steve not yet, but it has nothing to do with the subject today. Well, at least not in regard to Mormonism. It is by someone that Steve actually mentioned earlier as having conducted a conference at the Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.
Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible Church in Sanford, Florida, which is the Bible Church Founded by RC Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. Ligonier Ministries has blessed my heart More than you can imagine by recently informing me that I am one of their very favorite programs on the air and They shipped me a number of these books to give away when I saw fit to listeners.
Who submitted questions to our guests so you're getting a free copy of a time for confidence? Trusting God in a post-christian society by dr. Stephen J Nichols, please give us your full mailing address RJ and we'll get that off to you.
Compliments of. Not only the publishers Reformation Trust the publishing arm of Ligonier Ministries. We also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service comm who ship out all of our winners the Bibles and books that they they win by submitting questions.
We also have Another person with a middle initial J. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who wants to know do you believe it is possible? For someone to be a Mormon and yet a born-again believer.
I'm not saying a Mormon who actually understands thoroughly their doctrine, but somebody who may have been caught up in the religion somehow naive to what they believe and Unconsciously believing in the true gospel not knowing that it is different from the Bible's gospel.
CJ I think that's a good question, too. Because my brother and I often wrestle with that because we we love so many Mormons I'm so many of them have been just the number of people we want that to be. The Mormon doctrine is.
No, I mean if you if then all the Mormons would be I was saying earlier. I don't hear much Mormon doctrine. It's CJ. You've also won a time for confidence.
Trusting God in a post-christian society by Stephen J. Nichols, and we hope you enjoy that. We have a former Mormon who is a friend of mine. Actually, she has been a guest on iron sharpens iron a number of times she's a published author and has a doctorate in theology.
Her name is Latane C Scott and She is from Albuquerque, New Mexico and has Several questions for you her first question. I usually don't take more than one question from a listener, but these are very good.
And since she has experienced a similar journey to you I thought I'd ask all three Latane asked. What is the biggest challenge you've faced in trying to share the gospel with Mormon friends?
Challenge and by the way, I've read I can't think of the name of her book Mormon Mirage. Yes, and I really like it I really do. It's really good. That's an excellent book class on.
The biggest challenge I think is well, I would undermine somebody's confidence in Mormonism going after Joseph Smith or Giving them the resources to go after him themselves. I guess. Well the biggest challenge for me was understanding.
Think I understood or I wanted to believe quite a while. This thing I think humans now number one. So with having him I said no, isn't it? Great, no matter what attacks men may make against it. And That's the great, you know men trying to couldn't read it and yet.
And when the Holy Spirit illumines their minds.
They believe. And Latane's next question for you is which book of Scripture had the biggest impact on you when leaving Mormonism.
Well, I think initially it was Isaiah like I said there but I think for the gospel of John now for years it's just after one Eternality of Jesus. The inability, you know, the of man to respond, you know, John chapters.
No one can. Does that mean. It means no one can no more than more than any other book.
There is no better Calvinist tract than the gospel of John. In fact, I've seen the gospel of John in tract form on its own and I think it's an excellent summary of biblical teachings. Just amen and of course the one of the most powerful.
Areas.
Showing election in John 10 where Jesus says that Those who are not believing upon him are not of his sheep because his sheep hear his voice and They know him and they follow him. Right. Just just a quick word right on that.
You know Mormons take that the verse out in John chapter 10 where it says other sheep I have that are not of this book. That's one of the ways that they use and.
Into it and take it as it's just it's so clear that you don't become a sheep by believing you believe because you already are the sheep, that's right. And Lastly Latane asks what changes do you see taking place in Mormonism lately?
Well, we did mention one earlier about the new approach to evangelism the softer view of the distinctions between Mormons and evangelicals as Just being another denomination kind of an approach which is a stark contrast from their earlier history.
Not even that long ago, but if you could anything else that you could think of.
Well, I I've been really surprised but then again, I'll explain it. Yeah, what what I mean by that is like the idea of someone like a Harry Reid. Oh, yeah being a Mormon and you know being in favor of abortion and you know.
Saying attacking Mitt Romney the way he did all those, you know. And now to have and and so they're making allowances for transgender. Oh, yeah.
I could not understand how Mitt Romney could possibly be a Mormon in good standing or even. Did I said Mitt Romney? I meant to say Harry Reid, but even but even Mitt Romney though in his earlier years before his race.
For president he was very liberal and many things. Yes. That's how he became the governor of Massachusetts.
Yep.
And and even Marie Osmond, you know, I know that she's been divorced a number of time and this is not to have some kind of pharisaic attitude. Towards divorced people. My late wife was divorced before I married her.
I have no Sinister view of divorced brothers and sisters, but their religion is quite a different matter when it comes to temple marriages.
And so on. Yeah, you quite a big but now, you know. Because of my upbringing how many of them are on now? They're good friend. I had he got know his mom and I said Kind of what happened. I mean they were married in the temple shrugged and said well it didn't work out.
It was never that way when I was a kid, you know. It was just like you got married in the temple and that was it. Unless become a lot more fundamentalist, right?
Well, thank you so much latane. Keep listening to iron sharpens. Iron looking forward to your return as a guest. For those of you wanting to get a hold of the Mormon Mirage, which was a book that our guest Steve Cooley Was complimenting just moments ago You could go to latane .com L-a-t-a-y-n-e dot-com and there is an updated version of that book the Mormon Mirage Which is a classic book on Mormonism and other things and she is going to also.
Latane is also going to be a part of a new book by Kriegel where there are contributors To the book who are all former Mormon Individuals who are converted to Christianity biblical Christianity who have their doctorates in theology.
I don't know the title of it yet, and it's not out in print yet, but that's something to keep your eye open for.
And I.
Look forward to hearing from latane again in the future. And by the way latane you're getting a free copy of a time for confidence Trusting God in a post-christian society by dr. Stephen J Nichols president of Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Florida.
I'd like you to now close with about Four minutes of uninterrupted time where you could leave our listeners With what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this program. And I want to quickly remind them that the Bethlehem Bible Church website is BBC Church org BBC Church Org and also no compromise radio can be found at no compromise radio .com No compromise radio .com, but if you could close us with about four minutes of your final words.
Well, I would just say this that you know as I think about Comparing and contrast if you look at Mormonism and it says that we believe that all mankind may be saved by or may explain the. You have to believe you know, you have a bunch of rules.
He did everything that we are commanded to do do not look at a woman in Really giving us an idea of mr. Nature of sin and never got angry Sinfully never looked fully. God He didn't have to do that died for and was raised only in the scriptures that we could learn about Jesus.
We can't learn anything about him in the Book of Mormon. Because it's a fraudulent book from Genesis to learn the gospel.
Well, thank you so much Steve for being our guest today on iron sharpens iron. I look forward to your return as my guest and Don't forget folks that the website for Bethlehem Bible Church is BBC Church org BBC Church org and also you have no compromise radio .com.
No compromise radio .com. I'm gonna close with a song. By a dear friend who I mentioned earlier Deborah Antognano who is a Christian recording artist. She is a former Jehovah's Witness who specifically wrote this song captives be free which is basically a Tribute to Christ for rescuing her out of the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses thought it was very appropriate to close our program today Due to the subject matter at hand with our guest Steve Cooley.
And I hope that you enjoy it as much as I do. That was captives be free by Deborah Antognano Former Jehovah's Witness who became a Christian and for more details on her music ministry go to matter of the heart.
Net.
Matter of the heart net. I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.