The Great Debate VIII: Is The Roman Catholic Priesthood Biblical & Ancient? (White vs Pacwa)

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May 29, 2003

Is The Roman Catholic Priesthood Biblical and Ancient? (5/29/03) James White and Fr. Mitchell Pacwa debate the validity of the Roman Priesthood. Does the New Testament describe an office of priest in the Church today? Does the New Testament teach that there is a Christian Prieshood? Are priests to be unmarried as Rome teaches? Is it true as the Council of Trent declared that a New Testament Priesthood was transformed from the Old? Is it correct to call someone "Father?" What is the priesthood of all believers as mentioned in the New Testament? What are the Biblical offices in the Church today? These questions and many more are answered in this debate. A wide variety of issues are discussed. This subject also ties in with the subjects of the Mass, purgatory, confession, and the celibacy of priests in Roman Catholic theology. This debate is probably the best debate these two gentlemen have ever had. Highly recommended. (2 hours 44 minutes) Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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00:01: The following presentation is a production of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Inc. and is protected by copyright laws of the
00:07: United States and its international treaties. Copying or distribution of this production without the expressed written permission of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Inc.
00:16: is prohibited. Good evening. Welcome to the 8th annual
00:22: Great Debate. My name is Chris Arnzen. I am the Long Island Station representative for WMCA and 970
00:30: DJ and the founder and president of the Great Debate. The man on my right is a very dear friend of mine.
00:38: In the Gospel of Luke, chapter 6, verse 26, we read, Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you.
00:47: That's woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you. Well, one thing that Dr. James White and I have in common is that verse strikes no fear in either one of our hearts because that will never happen in a million years.
01:04: But there's a little bit different reason for Dr. White. It's not because he's an idiot like me. Dr. White stands up for what he believes to be the sacred truth of Scripture despite the enemies he may gain no matter what religion they are.
01:16: In fact, there are Reformed Baptists who want him assassinated even though he is an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
01:23: Dr. James White is director of Alpha Omega Ministries, a theologically reformed evangelical Protestant Christian apologetics organization in Phoenix, Arizona, where he also serves as one of the elders at the
01:33: Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. Dr. White was appointed scholar in residence in the College of Christian Studies at Grand Canyon University and was chosen as an adjunct professor with Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary's Arizona campus.
01:47: Dr. White has lectured in Greek, Hebrew, Systematic Theology, and Christology for Golden Gate and Theology and Church History at Grand Canyon.
01:54: He is also professor of apologetics for Columbia Evangelical Seminary in Longview, Washington. He is the author of almost 20 books, including
02:02: The Roman Catholic Controversy, Mary, Another Redeemer, Dangerous Airwaves, Harold Campbell Refuted and Christ Church Defended, and The Forgotten Trinity.
02:11: And by the way, both evangelicals and Catholics in the audience may want to pick up this book, The Forgotten Trinity at Dr.
02:17: White's table, because Father Mitch Pacwa actually endorsed this book. His endorsement's right on the back cover. So obviously, since Father Pacwa enjoyed it,
02:27: I'm sure both Catholics and evangelicals will enjoy the book and be blessed by it. He has also contributed to such publications as Table Talk and the
02:35: CRI Journal. He has engaged in more than 45 moderated public debates on a very wide range of subjects.
02:42: Dr. White has also served as critical consultant for the New American Standard Bible Update. He is heard frequently as a guest on such national radio broadcasts as The Bible Answer Man with Hank Anagraff and Janet Partials of America.
02:55: He has been married for more than 20 years to Kelly and has two children, Joshua and Summer. You can visit Dr. White's website for Alpha and Omega Ministries at www .aomin
03:05: .org. Here he is, my dear friend, Dr. James White. I'm going to introduce in a moment
03:19: Arnold Pilsner of Americans United for the Pope, who will introduce Father Pacwa to you.
03:25: Arnold is a very dear friend, and he has helped out tremendously with these debates, especially with getting
03:30: Catholics to attend every year. Before I do, I just wanted to say that I can say with all honesty and sincerity that of all the debates that we've been doing over the years,
03:41: Father Pacwa has endeared himself to my heart more than any of the Catholic debaters. He is a gracious and humble man, as well as a brilliant man.
03:51: Although Dr. White and I share a very rich Calvinistic Protestant heritage, Father Pacwa and I also have something very strong in common.
03:59: We share in common a Polish heritage. The only difference is that my ancestry is
04:05: Norwegian and Polish. My ancestors were Vikings that raided their own villages. But anyway,
04:13: Arnold, please come up and introduce Father Pacwa. Thank you,
04:28: Chris. Our sincere thanks to you and your staff for all the work and dedication in organizing this great debate.
04:34: Before I introduce Father Pacwa, Chris asked me to make the following announcement. Chris and I want to set up a name and address database for anyone in the audience who is interested in being informed about future debates.
04:49: We also want to let you know about additional talks given each year by the speakers following the debate.
04:55: So we ask you to write on the back of your ticket, if you care to, your name, address, phone number, and also put on the back either
05:03: Dr. White or Father Pacwa's name. And at the break, those interested in obtaining a
05:08: Catholic speaker's schedule, please hand me the ticket or bring it to the table. And if you're interested in Dr.
05:16: White's schedule, please give the ticket to Chris or one of his associates. Thank you. It is now my privilege to introduce to you
05:22: Father Mitch Pacwa of the Society of Jesus. Father Pacwa entered the
05:28: Jesuits in 1968 and was ordained a Catholic priest in 1976.
05:35: He studied at the University of Detroit and the Jesuit School of Theology at Loyola University, graduating summa cum laude and magna cum laude, respectively.
05:48: He then continued his studies to receive his doctorate in Old Testament with a New Testament minor from Vanderbilt University in 1984.
05:58: For over 35 years, he has been teaching scripture and the Catholic faith through Catholic radio and television, as well as in various universities, parishes, and conferences around the world.
06:13: Over the years, he has led over 1 ,000 pilgrims to Jerusalem, visiting the
06:19: Holy Land 44 times. Father Pacwa speaks 12 languages, which allows him to travel the globe teaching the scriptures and educating
06:30: Catholics about their faith. Father Pacwa is currently hosting three television shows on a worldwide
06:37: Catholic television network called the Eternal Word Television Network, better known to audiences as EWTN.
06:46: When he is not filming at EWTN, he is traveling around the globe teaching
06:51: Catholics both scripture and sacred tradition. In August of 2001,
06:57: Father Pacwa founded Ignatius Productions, which produces video and audio tapes of Father Pacwa teaching at holy places and shrines around the world.
07:07: Father Pacwa has just completed a series of tapes with the aid of a Muslim convert to aid all
07:13: Christians to better understand Islam and how to evangelize them. It has proven to be a very valuable aid in converting
07:20: Muslims. So at this time, it is my distinct honor and privilege to present to you
07:26: Father Mitch Pacwa. One thing that you folks might want to do now, or while you're watching the debate, is write down any questions that you may have on your ticket.
07:49: Because what we're going to do this year, when we take questions, we're going to have our moderator read the questions that you hand in that way.
07:54: And please, if you want Arnold Pilsner to receive the ticket from Americans United for the
08:00: Pope, if you're a Roman Catholic, write at the top, Catholic. And this way we'll know that Arnold is to receive the ticket after Pastor Shishko finishes reading the questions.
08:11: I'd like to introduce you to our moderator now. He's also a very dear friend of mine. And both
08:16: Catholics and Protestants alike commented that last year when he was moderating the debate that he did a phenomenal job moderating.
08:25: Everybody was very pleased with that. Pastor Bill Shishko is the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, New York.
08:32: And it's my pleasure to introduce him to you now. Pastor Bill Shishko. And now we're going to just bow for a moment of silent prayer.
09:01: Amen. Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen. Now I'm turning over the podium to our moderator Bill Shishko. Let me go over the rules for tonight.
09:12: The rules are for the benefit of everyone, particularly for you, so that there's fairness in the entire debate.
09:20: First, there will be a strict observance of the time limits, and I will give you the format in just a moment.
09:26: Now the reason why that's important is that if you interrupt the speaker that you particularly support by your applause, all you're going to do is take away that speaker's time to speak.
09:37: This is not a State of the Union address where the president has carte blanche to speak for as long as he wants.
09:43: So there will be an opportunity at the end to give the applause I know that you'll want to give to each speaker.
09:50: Number two, I'm going to ask that there be decorum in the debate as there was last year. This is not a baseball game.
09:57: This is a debate. And so boos and hisses and any shouts of liar or loud breathing to try to indicate that you don't like what was said are out of order.
10:07: And even though I didn't bring my gavel tonight, last year with Patrick Madrid, the poor man nearly had a heart attack when
10:13: I used the gavel. So I'm dispensing with that, but I will call order if there is a break in the decorum.
10:20: Number three, if you have a cell phone or a beeper, either turn it off or turn it on vibrate.
10:26: I don't want to hear one cell phone tonight. That's not appropriate for the speakers, and it's disruptive of the assembly.
10:33: So please turn them off or put them on vibrator mode. As Chris mentioned, we are not going to have questions and answers from the audience.
10:42: I am convinced that you don't know how to ask questions. We have budding
10:47: Rush Limbaugh's out who love to use the microphone to make their premier performances, and that's not what we're here for.
10:54: So use your ticket and write questions out that you have in the course of the debate.
11:01: Now a question is an inquiry. You are asking for something. You are asking for clarification of a point that is made, or you're asking for added information for a point that was made, or you're asking a question related to the topic.
11:19: And I will be going through these, so if that doesn't fit the criteria, don't expect that your question will be asked.
11:26: If you want the question directed to one particular speaker, note that on the card. Those will be picked up at the break.
11:32: So if you don't have your questions written out by the break, then you won't have the opportunity to have them offered.
11:39: Here's the format for tonight. Father Mitchell Pacwa will begin with a 25 -minute opening statement, and that will be followed by Dr.
11:49: James White with a 25 -minute statement. After that, there will be two periods of rebuttals in which there are answers to what was given.
11:58: Those rebuttals will be eight minutes each by both speakers, and then four minutes each by both speakers.
12:05: By then, we'll all need some kind of a break, at least to use the restroom, so there will be a 20 -minute break.
12:12: And we'll time it because we want to get you out on time, so note it yourself. I'll let you know when you're to come back, but there will be a 20 -minute break at which time your questions are to come to me.
12:23: Then there will be two periods of cross -examination, one for 10 minutes and one for five minutes.
12:30: That will be in which both Father Pacwa and Dr. White will ask questions of one another, and that will conclude with two closing 10 -minute statements.
12:40: There will be a five -minute break at the end of the debate, and if you need to leave, you're free to leave then.
12:45: But after that five -minute break, we will then field your questions until 11 o 'clock p .m.
12:52: At 11 o 'clock, things are done. These men may want to stay around with what energy they have and answer your questions, but we will be done here at 11 o 'clock.
13:01: I would ask one thing. I don't know how well it's going to be honored, but we'll try it. After these men have spoken at length in the first portion, they really need a break to charge their batteries, and there really is no place that they can get away here.
13:16: So if you would please let them have a few minutes during the 20 -minute break. They also have bodily needs that they may need to satisfy, as you do, and they also just need the opportunity to gather their thoughts.
13:28: I will now turn things over for the constructive speeches, first of all, to Father Mitchell Pacwa. And the topic tonight, how biblical and ancient is the
13:38: Catholic priesthood? Thank you all very much.
13:55: Appreciate being able to be here. And especially to talk about something that has been a focus of my life since I was eight years old.
14:04: Until I was eight, I wanted to be a cowboy. Since then, I've wanted to be a priest.
14:11: And I've been very surprised at how much more wonderful I thought it is than even
14:18: I could imagine as a young man and young boy. The priesthood is something constitutive of the human being.
14:30: Priesthood is something that goes back to our most ancient ancestors. Already, the sons of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, are offering sacrifice in Genesis chapter 4.
14:45: Noah, when he gets off the ark in chapter 8, offers a sacrifice.
14:52: Again, showing that this is basic to the human race as a whole.
14:59: We continue to see frequently that Abram, and then later on when his name is changed to Abraham, offers sacrifice.
15:10: He builds altars in various parts of the Holy Land, the Land of Promise, and offers sacrifice in those places to God.
15:20: Melchizedek, the priest of God Most High, offers bread and wine. Isaac, Jacob, all offer sacrifices on altars that they made.
15:33: This is something that goes to the very basic element of the human being's need to worship
15:40: God and to offer him sacrifice. And in the beginning of the religion of Israel, when they left
15:51: Egypt and came into the Sinai Desert, some of the most lengthy explanations are given on how to make the temple, the tent place of offering sacrifice and keeping the
16:09: Ark of the Covenant, as well as the establishment of the priesthood, the Levitical priesthood.
16:15: The tribe of Levi had been chosen for their fidelity to God after the worship of the golden calf.
16:23: And from within the tribe of Levi, Aaron and his sons become the priests, and associated with them are the other members of the tribe of Levi.
16:35: This goes to the very roots of Israel. Within the
16:41: New Testament, the new Adam, Jesus Christ, also demonstrates the essential constitutive element of priesthood.
16:55: The letter to the Hebrews in chapters 5 -10 describe Jesus Christ as our one true high priest, who is not only the priest, but also the victim offered, because he offers himself as that sacrifice for God once and for all.
17:19: Something which he is able to do precisely because he is not only one of us, he's not only the new
17:27: Adam, but Jesus Christ is also God the Son.
17:32: And because of that eternal, infinite, divine nature, his sacrifice and his priesthood are able to be eternal and infinite, so that the sins we commit are not going to be more powerful than his sacrifice on the cross.
17:59: And his giving himself in death is not going to be weaker than our own death.
18:06: He'll be stronger than death and stronger than sin in offering himself up.
18:14: Now, this is something that most
18:19: Christians, I think, will accept. There should be little disagreement on that. If you believe in the scriptures, we accept these elements of the faith.
18:32: The controversy comes in another area, namely human priesthood.
18:40: In Exodus chapter 19, verse 6, Moses calls the elders, the zikanim in Hebrew, and he is told by God to tell them that all
18:56: Israel is to be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation.
19:03: And in one sense, we cannot separate that from the initial call given to Abram in Genesis chapter 12, because the
19:13: Lord promises that all nations will be blessed through Abram.
19:18: And blessing is one of the elements of the role of a priest.
19:26: And so the whole nation that springs from the loins of Abram, his seed is to become a holy nation and a kingdom of priests.
19:36: And in one sense, all of them share in priesthood. And we see exactly the same thing inside the
19:48: Christian church, because it is
19:53: Christian belief that all of us are called to be priests.
20:00: As a matter of fact, the first epistle of Saint Peter, chapter 2, speaks of us as a temple of living stones, as a priestly nation.
20:15: We are a temple in which God dwells. We all form living stones, and within that whole church,
20:23: God chooses to dwell. And he also chooses to dwell, of course, as we know from Saint Paul, within each individual
20:32: Christian. So it's a communal and an individual indwelling of God.
20:39: But there's also this call in 1 Peter 2 to offer spiritual sacrifices.
20:47: And in this way, everybody is called to live out a Christian priesthood.
20:53: And again, I doubt that there would be many Bible -believing Christians, Catholic or not
20:59: Catholic, who would have any dispute with that call. It's a command in Scripture. It's repeated as a principle three times in the book of Revelation.
21:13: They were called to be a kingdom of priests. And that this call for a priesthood to be shared amongst all
21:21: Christians is something that seems modeled on ancient
21:27: Israel. God is taking that priestly element of the human being and is awakening that to the true worship of the true
21:39: God. Just as he had called all Israel, so also does he call all of the church of Christ, his whole body.
21:50: And in one sense, I think that these places where we are told that we are priestly people, in 1
22:00: Peter 2 and three occasions in Revelation, are also important elements of making sense out of Saint Paul's experience at his conversion, when
22:15: Jesus Christ appeared to him on the way to Damascus. And said,
22:22: Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?
22:30: Now Saul had not taken part in the crucifixion of Jesus in any direct way.
22:39: But he had taken part in the martyrdom of Stephen and then many other men and women in Jerusalem.
22:47: And he was making his way to arrest people who were Christians in Damascus. And Christ takes what was being done to those
22:58: Christians as being done to himself. He radically identifies himself with his church.
23:05: So much so that Saint Paul is going to develop this theology of the church as the body of Christ.
23:14: What you do to his church, you do to Jesus. And this is going to be a key theological basis for understanding why it is that all the
23:30: Christian church shares in the priesthood of Jesus Christ. When we are baptized into Jesus, we are also baptized into his priesthood.
23:43: So that by virtue of baptism, all Christians share in that priesthood of Christ.
23:52: And Saint Paul even gives us some instruction in Romans chapter 12 verse 1 on how it is we are to live out that priesthood.
24:03: Make a spiritual offering of yourself. Because just as our one true high priest offers himself on the cross, we too must follow
24:16: Jesus, pick up our cross, and follow him daily, as he says in the
24:21: Gospel of Luke. We must offer our whole self as a spiritual sacrifice, as Saint Paul tells us in Romans.
24:33: And this is some of the ways, and there are many more, are evangelizing and so many other forms of service and ministry that all of us are called to do.
24:45: But the sacrificial element is what specifically makes us priests. Now we still have one more issue.
24:56: Why is it that in the Catholic Church, whether it's Latin form or the
25:04: Eastern communities, because we have many Eastern communities as well, Copts, Maronites, Melkites, Byzantines of different kinds,
25:13: Chaldeans, we all share a priesthood and equally we share that belief in the priesthood and we certainly recognize the authentic priesthood of the
25:28: Eastern Orthodox Communions. That the Greeks, Russians, and all the other
25:33: Orthodox communities also have a priesthood that goes back to the Apostles, which we recognize as valid and authentic priesthood.
25:43: This is in general the area where Christians dispute, especially since the
25:50: Reformation. This was not a problem within the early part of the Church, the first 1400 years, 1500 years, but in the time of the
26:00: Reformation, an understanding of how to approach Scripture led to a change in that perspective.
26:11: What are some of the issues? One issue is that we do not see the
26:18: Greek word hieros, meaning priest, used of the
26:25: Apostles. There is one text where St. Paul exercises priestly ministry and uses a verb form, that he uses a verb form of being a priest, and that's in Romans 15, verse 16.
26:52: But otherwise they don't use it. Now it is used of Jesus Christ, that he is called our
27:00: High Priest, Archihieros, Archihieros, excuse me.
27:06: And this is something that we say, well why is it used of Jesus, who has that priesthood of the
27:12: Order of Melchizedek? And why isn't it used of the
27:18: Apostles? Instead what we see are a different set of terms. One term is episkopos, which becomes in English, through the
27:33: German, Bishop. Episkopos becomes Bischof, becomes
27:39: Bishop in German, in English. And presbyteros, which becomes
27:45: Priester in German, and then from German to English, Priest. So we actually derive the word priest that we use from the word presbyteros, but in general the word presbyteros in Greek is not the word used for priest, it's the word meaning elder.
28:09: And then of course there is a third rank, the diakonos, or deacon. Now, why is it they use these terms?
28:19: And frankly, one of the insights I received into this problem, because it is a serious problem for the early
28:30: Christian church, came when I was studying modern Hebrew. One time
28:36: I made a mistake. We were going through, as students, I was a graduate student at Vanderbilt, but there were undergrads there, and they were describing what their majors were, what they do.
28:48: And so then I said, oh, I am a
28:54: Catholic priest. My teacher nearly pulled her hair out. You are not a
29:03: Kohen. Now, a lot of you know people whose last name is Cohen, or Kohen.
29:10: That's the Hebrew word for priest. It also shows up in Arabic. And this is the term for priest.
29:22: And I may not use that of myself and still say that I'm using good Hebrew, as my teacher correctly corrected me.
29:29: Because to be a Kohen is not merely the description of a job of offering sacrifice.
29:38: It's also being part of a clan. As you see, it's a last name for families.
29:46: You can only be born a Kohen. If I had Jewish ancestry,
29:53: I actually would not have Jewish ancestry if I were a Kohen. If I were a Kohen, I would have Levitical ancestry.
30:00: Jewish is from the tribe of Judah. If I had Levitical ancestry, perhaps
30:06: I could be a Kohen. But I'd have to be born that. My father would have to be a Kohen.
30:13: I cannot ever become one. I can wish it, I can desire it, but it would mean nothing because you must be born a
30:20: Kohen. And so this term is something that would not be possible for Christians to use in the early church.
30:30: When they were still living in Palestine. When they still lived in Jerusalem.
30:36: They could never apply that to themselves because most of them were from Galilee and were not from priestly families.
30:43: As you see commonly, the name Judas and other names are referring to members, probably the tribe of Judah.
30:49: Perhaps some stragglers from another tribe or converts from the Gentiles. While there's another word in Hebrew.
30:59: And my teacher told me to say this. You're not a Kohen. You are a
31:04: Komer. You are Komer Katoli. Now Komer is a word that appears in the
31:14: Old Testament. About three or four times. It's not very common. And usually it is translated in English as idolatrous priest.
31:24: So the word idolatrous is not there. But it's a way to indicate foreign priests.
31:32: Pagan priests. It's a term never used for Jewish priests but only for those who worship the other gods.
31:38: Now I know enough classical Hebrew to know I don't like being called a Komer.
31:45: Because I'm not that kind of priest. I'm a priest of Jesus Christ and he is not a pagan god.
31:52: And so I don't like that. But there is no other acceptable word in Hebrew. And the early church had to cope with this same problem of language.
32:04: They used some terms. Especially the terms for liturgia.
32:10: Liturgy as we will call it in English. And liturgos. Which are terms frequently used in the
32:19: Greek translation of the Old Testament. The Septuagint. To refer to the action of priests.
32:27: So Saint Paul and the other disciples will use that of themselves. And that they had that liturgical ministry.
32:34: And that's usually the way it's translated as ministry. But it's a term as you see for instance in Luke chapter 1.
32:42: Referring to the priestly ministry of Zacharias. To offer the incense at the temple.
32:52: Now the early church uses this term presbyteros. Presbyter. Elder. And we have to keep something in mind about the nuance of this word.
33:05: Why would they choose this word? On one hand there are three good words for older people.
33:18: But the one that they chose presbyter or elder. Doesn't have the same nuance of the other two like palaios.
33:27: Which means not only old but sort of old in the way that Chris told my joke. The three old guys sort of losing their faculties a little bit.
33:39: And the other one is a Greek word from which you get gerontology. It also has a sense of weakness in old age.
33:44: Well elder does not. The word presbyter or presbyteros does not have that sense of elder as someone who is simply older.
33:53: And is losing some of their strength and abilities or even their mental faculties. Rather it's a sign of dignity.
34:02: And the supremacy of somebody because they are an elder. It's translating when it is in the
34:10: Old Testament. It's frequently translating the zikenim. The elders of the
34:16: Old Testament who were the bearded ones. The zikenim elders simply a word that there are different words there too.
34:25: That mean one person is older than another. That's one where that's gadol or rav. Those words show up to be sure.
34:33: In Genesis and elsewhere. But the word zikenim as elders doesn't just mean someone who happens to be older.
34:41: But someone who's bearded. And someone who has a status within the community.
34:47: And so what we see is that the term elder or presbyter. Is a term that can mean that you are older in age.
34:59: But usually with an honorific sense. And it can have that sense in classical
35:06: Greek. Just meaning people who are older than others. It can have that meaning. But it also indicates both in the biblical context.
35:14: Because again the Bible is translated into Greek. In the 3rd and 2nd centuries
35:20: BC. And there as well as in the New Testament. It refers to an office.
35:27: And even outside of the biblical usage. In the ancient Greek usage it also referred to offices.
35:33: Including the elders who were a group of priests. Worshipping one of the
35:39: Egyptian gods. Or a group of people who were leading Jewish converts.
35:46: To worshipping God the Most High. They also were called elders. And in a number of very interesting places.
35:56: In the Old Testament. The elders of Israel. And they're usually always called the elders of Israel.
36:04: Have very important roles at key sacrifices.
36:09: For instance. When Moses tells the people to sacrifice the
36:16: Passover lamb. He goes to the elders in Exodus chapter 12. When he has a sacrificial meal with his priest father -in -law
36:24: Jethro. The elders join him in Exodus 17. When he has the sacred meal.
36:34: At which the covenant with God is ratified on the mountain. He calls the elders to join him.
36:42: Not the whole people. But a group of elders. Go up to the mountain and share that sacrificial meal.
36:48: After ratifying the covenant. After Moses had said that this is the covenant. The blood of the covenant.
36:55: Which is shed for you. And he sprinkled it on the people. Then he took the elders up.
37:01: And they had the sacrificial meal. And they got to see God. And a number of other situations.
37:09: That we may, if we have time to go into, we can. So that this term elder.
37:15: Not only means an office of respect within the community. But also an office which is associated with crucial sacrifices.
37:28: And so. The early church. I think used this term.
37:34: They chose this term. As one more acceptable. Since Cohen was impossible.
37:41: Comer was unacceptable. And they choose something from their own tradition.
37:48: As they also did, by the way, with Bishop. A term that's used in Qumran.
37:54: As the Mivakir. The Mivakir, which is the Episcopal or Bishop. Was the head of the priests.
38:03: At Qumran. Where the Dead Sea Scrolls were written. A community that certainly would be familiar with some of them.
38:09: Especially John the Baptist. Probably John the Apostle and some of the early disciples. But this kind of language.
38:16: Is something that they can say, alright, we can adapt this. And see within this general priesthood.
38:24: That all of us have. A kind of hierarchy.
38:30: In which there are priests. Who exercise. This priestly ministry.
38:36: In a liturgical way. In a distinct way. In a way which helps draw together.
38:43: The priesthood of all the believers. Into the liturgical worship of Jesus Christ.
38:49: Most especially at the Eucharist. Where they offer his body and blood. Thank you.
39:15: Well good evening and welcome. I'm awful glad to see all of you here this evening. We have a very important subject to debate.
39:21: And of course, I recognize that. Father Mitch is going to be rather passionate about this particular subject.
39:28: I recognize that going in. And I think that will make it a much more interesting debate for all of us.
39:34: Because we recognize how important it truly is. I'd like to begin with a quote that I've used a number of times.
39:41: Because I think it expresses to us. The pietistic and historical view of the
39:47: Roman Catholic priesthood. This comes from O 'Brien in his book,
39:52: The Faith of Millions. When the priest announces the tremendous words of consecration.
39:58: He reaches up into the heavens. Brings Christ down from his throne. And places him upon our altar to be offered up again.
40:05: As the victim of the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of saints and angels. Greater than that of seraphim and cherubim.
40:12: Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the Blessed Virgin was the human agency.
40:18: By which Christ became incarnate a single time. The priest brings Christ down from heaven. And renders him present on our altar.
40:25: As the eternal victim for the sins of man. Not once but a thousand times. The priest speaks and lo
40:31: Christ the eternal and omnipotent God. Bows his head in humble obedience to the priest's command.
40:40: Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest. Who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador.
40:46: And the vice -gerant of Christ on earth. He continues the essential ministry of Christ. He teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ.
40:54: He pardons the penitent sinner with the power of Christ. He offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement.
41:01: Which Christ offered on Calvary. No wonder that the name which spiritual writers. Are especially fond of applying to the priest.
41:09: Is that of alter Christus. For the priest is and should be another
41:15: Christ. We see in such words the centrality of the concept of the priesthood.
41:24: To historic Roman Catholic theology. The priest stands alter Christus in the place of Christ.
41:32: It is through the priest that Christ is made present to the people. Through the priest that the miracle of transubstantiation takes place.
41:41: Through the priest that forgiveness and absolution. Is granted sacramentally etc.
41:47: In classic pre -Vatican II theology. The priesthood is a highly exalted thing.
41:53: Note the words of James Cardinal Gibbons from 1876. The apostles were clothed with the powers of Jesus Christ.
42:01: The priest as the successor of the apostles. Is clothed with their power. This fact reveals to us the eminent dignity of the priestly character.
42:10: The exalted dignity of the priest is derived not from the personal merits. For which he may be conspicuous.
42:17: But from the sublime functions which he is charged to perform. To the carnal eye the priest looks like other men.
42:23: But to the eye of faith he is exalted above the angels. Because he exercises powers not given even to angels.
42:32: It should be remembered of course that. Even if after Vatican II. More biblically oriented language has been used.
42:40: Including the recognition of the priesthood of all believers in Christ. The view of the priesthood that prevailed for centuries.
42:48: Remains at the heart of Eucharistic and sacramental theology piety and practice.
42:54: Now our debate this evening in the thesis has two elements. And as the judges this evening you must keep the topic in mind throughout.
43:01: First is the Roman Catholic priesthood biblical. Does the Bible positively present us with the concept of a sacramental.
43:10: Mediatorial priesthood as part and parcel of Christ's will for his church. As expressed in the inspired scriptures.
43:19: And also does the Bible present positive truths. That are contradictory to the
43:24: Roman concept of the priesthood itself. And secondly how ancient is this concept. Specifically and I think most importantly.
43:31: Is this a belief that has always been held by the church. Did the earliest generations of Christians have priests.
43:40: Did they understand that there was a sacramental mediatorial priesthood. That was established by Christ and his apostles.
43:48: Or do we need to look elsewhere for the origins of this concept of priesthood. Remember the
43:53: Roman Catholic Church has dogmatically claimed. In the 23rd session of the Council of Trent. Since therefore in the
43:59: New Testament. The Catholic Church has received from the institution of Christ. The holy visible sacrifice of the
44:04: Eucharist. It must also be confessed that there is in that church. A new visible and external priesthood.
44:10: Into which the old has been translated. That this was instituted by the same
44:16: Lord our Savior. And that the apostles and their successors in the priesthood. Was given the power of consecrating.
44:23: Offering and administering his body and blood. So also forgiving and retaining sins.
44:28: Is shown by the sacred scriptures. And listen to this. And has always been taught by the tradition of the
44:36: Catholic Church. End quote. It further stated in the same session quote.
44:42: Since from the testimony of scripture. Apostolic tradition and the unanimous agreement of the fathers.
44:48: It is clear that grace is confirmed by sacred ordination. Which is performed by words and outward signs.
44:54: No one ought to doubt that order is truly improperly. One of the seven sacraments of Holy Church.
45:00: End quote. And the canons attached to this session. We find the anathema pronounced in these words. Quote canon 1.
45:06: If anyone says that there is not in the New Testament. A visible and external priesthood.
45:12: Or that there is no power of consecrating. And offering the true body and blood of the Lord. And of forgiving and retaining sins.
45:18: But only the office and bare ministry of preaching the gospel. Or that those who do not preach are not priests at all.
45:25: Let him be anathema. End quote. Now in the previous session of the council of Trent.
45:31: Where in the sacrifice the mass was addressed. It was taught that Christ ordained the apostles.
45:37: As priests at the last supper. Indeed in this session we read quote canon 2. If anyone says that by those words.
45:44: Do this for commemoration of me. Christ did not institute the apostles priests.
45:49: Or did not ordain that they and other priests. Should offer his own body and blood. Let him be anathema.
45:56: End quote. If we find that these statements are not true. Then we find that the
46:01: Roman Catholic Church. Has erred in a matter of faith and morals. And an allegedly infallible pronouncement.
46:07: By an ecumenical council. Which would not only end the debate this evening. But would end all such debates.
46:12: For it would disprove the central claim. Of Roman Catholic authority. So the issues this evening are weighty indeed.
46:20: And so we have two points to establish this evening. Is the Roman Catholic priesthood biblical? And is it historical?
46:27: How ancient is it? Let's begin with God's word. The Bible clearly teaches that God is a
46:33: God of order. His church is ordered by divine wisdom as well. It is not every man for himself.
46:39: There is an order to Christ's church. As the writer to the Hebrews said in Hebrews 13 17.
46:44: Obey your leaders and submit to them. For they keep watch over your souls. As those who will give an account.
46:51: Let them do this with joy and not with grief. For this would be unprofitable for you. Obviously one must have a means of knowing.
46:58: Who your leaders are to fulfill this command. They must know they are to guard over your souls as well.
47:04: There is a structure to the church. And the New Testament reveals. That this structure involves two offices.
47:11: That of elder and that of deacon. One of the most relevant facts. Concerning the nature of the
47:16: New Testament church. In this evening's debate. Is the fact that the Greek terms. Translated as elder, bishop or overseer.
47:23: Specifically as we have already heard. Presbyteros and Episcopos. Refer to the self same office.
47:32: Elders are bishops. Bishops are overseers. Overseers are elders. The only two ecclesiastical offices.
47:40: The apostles recognize. Establish. Promulgate. And teach in the local church.
47:46: Are those of elder and deacon. Where do we see this? Well let's note Paul's action.
47:52: We record in Acts chapter 14. Verses 21 through 23. Listen to this.
48:20: This was something the apostles did. Similarly Paul wrote to Titus. In Titus 1 .5.
48:36: And so Paul is so concerned. That the church be set in order.
48:41: Established aright. That in Acts and writing to Titus. He emphasizes this establishment of the elders.
48:48: In those local churches. These passages all teach. That the apostles. Set in order.
48:55: The church by providing to her elders. Those men. Who would lead and teach and give guidance.
49:00: To the local churches. In 2nd Timothy 2 .2. We read the things which you have heard from me. In the presence of many witnesses.
49:07: Entrust these to faithful men. Who will be able to teach others also. There is little reason to question.
49:14: In light of Paul's listing. The ability to teach. Is one of the qualifications of the elder. 1st Timothy 3 .2.
49:36: That truth can be safeguarded. Is very much part. Of comforting. Establishing. And encouraging.
49:42: The saints. In Philippians 1 .1. We read. Paul and Timothy bond servants of Christ Jesus.
49:48: To all the saints in Christ Jesus. Who are in Philippi. And then listen to this. Including the. Overseers.
49:54: And deacons. There is your two offices. And indeed one of the most compelling. Biblical examples.
50:00: Regarding elders. Bishops. Being the same offices. Found in Acts chapter 20. Beginning of verse 17.
50:06: From Miletus. He sent to Ephesus. And called to him. The elders of the church. And so Paul.
50:12: Who is in Ephesus for many years. Calls to himself. The elders of the church.
50:17: But then listen to what he says to them. In Acts chapter 20. Verses 27 through 30. For I did not shrink from declaring to you.
50:24: The whole purpose of God. Be on guard for yourselves. And for all the flock. Among which the Holy Spirit has made you.
50:31: Overseers. Elder. Overseer. Overseer.
51:02: Overseer. According to a body of elders. Of an organized local church. That was Ephesus. The apostle intertwines.
51:09: The key terms used throughout his letters. Including overseer. In the plural. Showing that all the elders were overseers.
51:16: And through the use of the term flock. And the verb to shepherd. He relates the pastoral concept as well.
51:23: Now the apostle Paul. Provide a list of qualifications. For both elders and deacons. In first Timothy chapter 3.
51:29: In Titus chapter 1. We hardly need to note. That no qualifications are offered. For any other alleged ecclesiastical office.
51:39: Now historically. And this has already been mentioned. It was the gradual differentiation. Without biblical basis.
51:45: Of the terms episkopos. And presbyteros. That led eventually to the creation. Of a monarchical episcopate.
51:51: Of a single bishop. And the eventual transformation. Of the presbyters into priests. But such a differentiation.
51:59: Is utterly unbiblical. And without foundation. In the inspired scriptures.
52:05: Now the New Testament does. As we've heard. Make reference to priests. It acknowledges the existence. Of the old
52:10: Jewish priesthood. And then the book of Hebrews. Teaches that the old priesthood. With its many priests. Has passed away.
52:17: And that a single high priest. To the people of God is now here. And that is Jesus Christ. The only other relevant references.
52:23: To the term priest. Are found in reference to the people of God. Who are said to be a royal priesthood.
52:28: Both in first Peter chapter 2. And a kingdom and priest to God. In the revelation given to John. Of course this use of priest.
52:36: Is in fact. Directly contrary to the specialized. Mediatorial. Sacramental. Ordained priesthood of Rome.
52:42: Especially in its pre -Vatican II form. The offerings offered. By the only Christian priest in scripture.
52:48: Are praise, thanksgiving. And our lives in service to Christ. The fact that this is the biblical view.
52:54: Of the people of God. Men and women. Without distinction. A royal priesthood. Had to be de -emphasized.
53:01: And all but extinguished. As it was during the Middle Ages. Before the specialized. Sacramental priest.
53:07: As another Christ form of priesthood. Could develop. Indeed as Philip Schaff. The church historian. So rightly noted.
53:13: But these ministers. Are nowhere represented. As priests. In any other sense. Than Christians generally are priests.
53:20: With the privilege of a direct access. To the throne of grace. In the name of their one. And eternal high priest in heaven.
53:26: Even in the pastoral epistles. Which present the most advanced stage. Of ecclesiastical organization.
53:31: In the apostolic period. While the teaching. Ruling and pastoral functions. The presbyter bishops.
53:37: Are fully discussed. Nothing is said. About a sacerdotal function. The apocalypse.
53:42: Which was written still later. Emphatically teaches. The universal priesthood. And kingship of believers. The apostles themselves.
53:49: Never claim or exercise. A special priesthood. The sacrifice. Which all Christians. Are exhorted to offer.
53:54: Is the sacrifice. Their person and property. To the Lord. And the spiritual sacrifice. Of Thanksgiving. And praise.
54:00: End quote. We should note in passing. That while there is. Plenty of sacrificial language. In the Lord's words.
54:06: At the last supper. As one would expect. Given the context. There is no contextual reason.
54:11: To believe the council. Of trans dogmatic assertion. That by instructing the disciples. To celebrate the
54:16: Lord's supper. Until he returns. That he was ordaining them. As priests. Such is a glowing example.
54:23: Of eisegesis. The reading. Of a text. Out of its own context. Into it.
54:28: As a result. Of concepts. That have no basis. Whatsoever. In the intentions. Of the original author. So to summarize.
54:34: The Bible presents. Two divinely appointed. Offices in the church. That are established. By apostolic authority.
54:40: Elders. Bishops. Overseers. One office. And deacons. There is no reference to.
54:46: Establishment of. Or teaching on. Any office. Of priests. Or a concept. Of a sacramental.
54:52: Mediatorial priesthood. In the new testament. Indeed. As noted historian. Richard Hanson. Has said.
54:57: Does the new testament. Recognize. Any individual minister. As a Christian priest. In virtue. Of his being a minister.
55:03: The reader. Will not be surprised. To find. That this question. Must receive an answer. An emphatic. Negative. There is no mention.
55:10: Of Christian officials. As priests. In the new testament. Whatever. We have no ground. For assuming. That the large number.
55:16: Of priests. The Jewish temple. Who we are told. Became Christians. Officiated as. Or regarded.
55:21: As priests. In any specifically. Christian sense. Despairing attempts. Have been made. To read the existence.
55:27: Of Christian priests. Into various parts. Of the new testament. But of official. Christian priests. We must honestly admit.
55:33: There is. In the new testament. Not. The faintest. Whisper. End quote. Instead.
55:39: The new testament says. There is one high priest. Jesus Christ. Who did away. With sin. Through his one time.
55:45: Sacrifice. And through that offering. Makes the people of God. A kingdom. And priest. To his father. No ordained ministers.
55:52: Called priests. Are to be found. In the sacred scriptures. This leads us. To our second point. How ancient.
55:58: Is the Catholic priesthood. Surely. It is ancient. In the sense. That the concept. Of a Christian priest.
56:03: Can be found. By the third century. After Christ. But the real question. Is this. Is the Catholic priesthood.
56:09: As Trent. Claimed. The ancient faith. Of the church. Has the church.
56:15: Always. That's Trent's language. Taught this doctrine. The answer again. Is a clear. And compelling.
56:21: No. The earliest. Generations. Of believers. Lived and died. Without once. Calling any man.
56:27: A priest. Without once. Seeking. The aid. Of an ordained individual. Who functioned.
56:32: As a priest. This is not really. A disputable point. Historians. Of every religious persuasion.
56:37: Admit this to be the case. We have already noted the words. Of Richard Hanson. Regarding the earliest. Generations.
56:42: Of Christians. He writes. No Christian priesthood. Is found. In the New Testament. There is in fact.
56:48: No solid evidence. That anyone thinks. Of Christian ministries. As priests. Until about the year 200. Attempts have been made.
56:54: To find evidence. For a Christian priesthood. In the second century. Likely candidates. For the position. Of priests. In the second century.
57:00: Should be presbyters. Or bishops. But nobody called. These priests. At that.
57:05: Time. Joseph Martos. In his book. Doors of the sacred. Wrote this.
57:11: The earliest. Christian community. Contained a variety. Of ministries. But priesthood. Was not.
57:17: One of them. The only priesthood. That Jesus. In his immediate followers. Apparently recognized. The ministry.
57:22: The Jewish temple priests. Nevertheless. Before the end. Of the first century. Christian writers. Likened Jesus. Death on the cross.
57:28: To a priestly sacrifice. And by the middle. Of the third century. Those who presided over. Eucharistic worship. Were beginning.
57:35: To be perceived. As priestly ministers. And quote. That is not. What the council. Of Trent. Said. He also said.
57:42: Among all these. Named ministries. However. There was no. Specifically. Priestly ministry. No. Priesthood.
57:48: In the later. Catholic. Sense. There were no. Specific Christians. Who were called priests.
57:54: But Christ. Himself. Was regarded. As the high priest. The new religion. And the spiritual sense. All believers.
58:00: Were part of a priestly people. Called to honor God. By praise. And self.
58:06: Sacrifice. Now we. Might want to. Mention. The fact that.
58:12: Even in the early church. It was recognized. That the presbyter. And the episcopos.
58:18: The bishop. And the elder. Were the same office. Writing. Almost 400 years.
58:25: After Christ. Jerome said this. A presbyter. Therefore. Is the same as a bishop.
58:32: And before dissensions. Were introduced. Into religion. By the instigation. Of the devil. And it was said. Among all these. Among the people.
58:37: I am of Paul. I am of Apollos. And I of Cephas. Churches. Were governed. By a common council.
58:43: Of presbyters. Afterwards. When everyone thought. That those whom. He had baptized. Were his own.
58:48: And not Christ. It was decreed. In the whole world. That one chosen. Out of the presbyters. Should be placed.
58:53: Over the rest. And to whom. All care of the church. Should belong. That the seeds of schism. Might be plucked up. Therefore.
58:59: As we have shown. Among the ancients. Presbyters. Were the same. As bishops.
59:04: But by degrees. That the plans. Of dissension. Might be rooted up. All responsibility. Was transferred. To one person.
59:11: Therefore. As the presbyters. Know that it is. By the custom. Of the church. That they are to be subject. To him who is placed.
59:16: Over them. So let the bishops know. That they are above presbyters. Rather by custom. Than by.
59:22: Divine appointment. End quote. So. Four hundred years. After the birth of Christ.
59:28: We still have. The recognition. On the part. Of Jerome. That the biblical evidence.
59:34: Is very very clear. Those two words. Do not refer. To two separate offices.
59:41: And hence the concept. Of a priesthood. Growing out of one of those two. Simply is not a biblical. Concept. Whatsoever.
59:49: One other. Quotation. I'd like to offer to you. From Richard Nelson. Regarding this issue.
59:54: Of the priesthood. The new testament. Gives us no hint. That the earliest church. Turned to priestly paradigms.
59:59: From the old testament. As it sought. To conceptualize. Its evolving ministry. The associated. The title.
01:00:05: Priest. With the Christian clergy. Except in. A few metaphorical. Senses. In first Clement.
01:00:10: Forty. Verse five. Of the didache. Was slow in taking place. It originally applied. To the bishops.
01:00:16: More often. The presbyters. And seems to have correlated. With the development. Of sacrificial models. For the Eucharist. It was not until.
01:00:22: Cyprian. Who died in 258. That presbyters. Were termed priests. In a sustained way.
01:00:27: A development. That correlated. With their acquiring. The function. Of presiding over. The Eucharist.
01:00:33: Independent. Of the bishop. And so why. If we have. Clear biblical teaching. Concerning these offices.
01:00:39: Did this concept. Of priesthood. Develop. Well. I think. That Philip Schaaf. Was exactly right.
01:00:46: When he made these comments. The idea. And institution. Of a special priesthood. Distinct from the body.
01:00:52: Of the people. With the accompanying notion. Of sacrifice. And altar. Passed imperceptibly. From Jewish.
01:00:58: And heathen. Reminiscences. And analogies. Into the Christian church. Whether we regard. The change. As an apostasy.
01:01:04: From a higher position. Attained. Or as a reaction. Of old ideas. Never fully abandoned. The change.
01:01:09: Is undeniable. And can be traced. To the second century. The church. Could not long. Occupy. The ideal height.
01:01:15: Of the apostolic age. And as the Pentecostal. Illumination. Passed away. With the death. Of the apostles. The old.
01:01:21: Reminiscences. Began. To reassert. Themselves. Why are we here this evening?
01:01:29: I think all of us. Recognize. The importance. Of the subject.
01:01:35: Tonight. I think you've all. All of you. Especially those of you. Who have attended. More than one debate. You've already heard.
01:01:42: Two previous debate subjects. That are. Fundamental. To our subject this evening.
01:01:47: Interestingly enough. Both subjects. That I have debated. Father Pacwa. On before. Sola Scriptura.
01:01:54: For if we allow. The scripture. To define the church. If we believe that God. Has spoken authoritatively.
01:02:00: In his word. And clearly in his word. And sufficiently in his word. So that his church.
01:02:05: Is his obedient bride. Listens to his word. And obeys. Then we will only.
01:02:11: Accept. In the church. Those offices. That the Holy Spirit. Through the apostles.
01:02:18: In his word. As established. Now we don't agree. On Sola Scriptura.
01:02:24: And also. You may hear. That the subject. Of the Eucharist. And the mass. Is relevant this evening.
01:02:30: As well. Because the two are. Intertwined. In regards to the priesthood. We have debated.
01:02:35: Both of those issues. In the past. And those tapes. Are available for you. To listen to. But it is.
01:02:42: Extremely important. That we recognize. That tonight. We sort of. Apply. What we've seen.
01:02:49: In previous debates. Is the word of God. Sufficient. To tell us.
01:02:54: How the church. Should function. And what the office. Is the church. Should be. And especially. When you hear those words.
01:03:01: That I quoted from. O 'Brien. Concerning the. Authority. And power. Of the
01:03:06: Roman Catholic. Priest. And the privileges. That have been given to him. Can. Such an office.
01:03:12: Have come into existence. Without the clear. And compelling testimony. Of God.
01:03:19: Inspired. Scripture. And. Can. That office. Then be made. Something.
01:03:25: That we. Must accept. And believe. I submit to you.
01:03:31: That the biblical evidence. Is clear. And that the fact. That those. First generations. Of Christians.
01:03:37: Lived and died. Without ever once. Calling a man. A priest. Or seeking. The functions. Of a priest.
01:03:44: Mediatorily. Proves otherwise. You see. The book of Hebrews. Tells us. Jesus. Christ.
01:03:50: Took. Away. Sin. There is no more. Sacrifice. For sin.
01:03:56: Therefore. That's why. Men and women. All believers. In Christ. Are priests. Because we offer our lives.
01:04:03: Not for sin. But out of thanksgiving. For what he has done for us. Thank you very much. Father Pacwa.
01:04:20: Has. Given what is commonly called. An affirmative speech. Seeking to present the position.
01:04:26: That the Catholic priesthood. Is both biblical. And ancient. And. Dr. White. Has given what is commonly called.
01:04:33: A negative. In which he is seeking to show. That the Catholic priesthood. Is neither biblical. Nor ancient.
01:04:39: We come now. To two periods. Of rebuttals. The first being. Eight minutes. And the second being.
01:04:45: Four minutes. And just to help. Those of you. Who are taking notes. It's helpful.
01:04:50: In a debate. If you use. What debaters call. A flow sheet. In which rather than. Just write your notes. Down. You make the points.
01:04:57: That Father Pacwa will make. And then Dr. White will make. Distill them. And put them down.
01:05:02: And then. See how each is dealt with. Throughout the debate. And that will give you. A helpful idea.
01:05:07: As to how thoroughly. One is dealing with the other. So Father Pacwa. With an eight minute rebuttal.
01:05:13: Followed by Dr. White. And then immediately. After that. Without any further introduction. To four minute rebuttals.
01:05:20: In that order. We disagree.
01:05:35: But we know how to share. He lets me use his title. I absolutely agree with.
01:05:50: Dr. White. That. It must be. Biblical. And I do believe.
01:05:57: That this. Catholic understanding. Of the priesthood. Is precisely that. Not contradictory.
01:06:04: But something that flows. Fully from it. He was also correct.
01:06:09: In bringing up that. Understanding the Catholic. Priesthood. Definitely does go back.
01:06:17: To our understanding of the. Eucharist. Because. The action of Jesus Christ.
01:06:24: On the cross. Is itself. Something that is inherently. Sacrificial.
01:06:30: Christ sacrificed himself. But at the. Eucharist. The breaking of the bread.
01:06:39: As Luke calls it. Or the Lord's Supper. As many communities call it.
01:06:45: Christ is commanding his disciples. To perform. A sacrifice. When he says the words.
01:06:54: Do this. In remembrance of me. He's using technical terminology.
01:07:01: From the Old Testament. Some animal sacrifices.
01:07:07: And most. Non -animal sacrifices. Are commanded in the
01:07:13: Old Testament. By the Hebrew word. Asa. Do. A lot of times.
01:07:20: You do. Use the. Zealot. Zealot. Zealot.
01:07:26: Zealot. Zealot. Zealot.
01:07:34: Zealot. Zealot. Zealot.
01:07:43: Zealot. Zealot. Zealot. Zealot. Zealot. Zealot. Zealot. Zealot. So this imperative.
01:07:54: Can refer to that. And secondly. The word. In remembrance. Has. Also.
01:08:00: A sacrificial notion. Apart from one use. In the.
01:08:06: Book of wisdom. Where simply means. Recalling the past. The Greek word for.
01:08:14: Remembrance. Is used throughout the Greek Old Testament. To refer to a class of sacrifices.
01:08:21: Remember. The Bible has a variety of classes. This is a sacrifice, and the memorial sacrifice is one especially mentioned in some of the psalms and liturgical notes.
01:08:33: The l 'chazkir in Hebrew, just translated as anamnesis in Greek.
01:08:40: And so, yes, I do believe it's biblical to see the apostolic action of offering the
01:08:48: Eucharist as a priestly action. And also, the command that Jesus Christ gave on the night of his resurrection.
01:08:57: Whosoever's sins you retain, they are retained. Whosoever's sins you loose or you absolve, they are absolved.
01:09:05: Speaks to them as a plural, the apostles. The 10 who are in the room.
01:09:12: And that the forgiveness of sins is, again, is something I think all Christians would agree, possible only because of Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
01:09:24: So that the forgiveness of sins and Christ's command to the apostles, and they're passing this on to their disciples, their converts, is something that is a priestly action because it's
01:09:39: Jesus Christ's action of forgiveness. And Jesus Christ's action of dying on the cross and rising again that is represented in the
01:09:49: Eucharist. So yes, I believe it's biblical. And that it is, these are inherently priestly activities.
01:09:58: And we see in Hebrews chapter 13, a text Dr. White mentioned.
01:10:05: Verse nine, do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings. God forbid that we should do that.
01:10:13: None of us want, neither Dr. White nor I, want to be led away by any false teachings contrary to that of Christ.
01:10:20: For it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods which have not benefited their adherents.
01:10:27: In verse 10, we have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.
01:10:36: Those who serve the tent were the Levitical priests. They had no right to eat at the
01:10:41: Christian altar. And that this term altar refers to that place of sacrifice, not a podium, not just a table, but an altar of sacrifice at which priests exercise their priestly ministry, that ministry of Jesus Christ offering himself.
01:11:04: And again, I'm delighted that Dr. White did not bring in sometimes a notion that people mistakenly attribute to us, that we are crucifying
01:11:15: Jesus again and again. We are not crucifying Jesus again and again at the sacrifice of the mass.
01:11:20: It is that one sacrifice once and for all, which is represented because the one who is sacrificed is
01:11:30: God and man, and therefore has freedom from our limits of time.
01:11:35: So what is for him an eternal moment is made present there.
01:11:42: And that's why it's a sacrificial moment. It makes it present right there on the altar so that we too can enter into that union with him.
01:11:54: And as far as early church, we do see
01:12:00: St. Clement of Rome, when we consider a successor to St. Peter, who says in chapter 40 of his letter to the
01:12:12: Corinthians who had kicked their bishops and elders out, that he, that is
01:12:18: God, has enjoined offerings and service, liturgia, by the way, to be performed, and that not thoughtlessly or regularly, but at the appointed times and hours, wherein by whom he desires these things to be done, he himself has fixed by his own supreme will.
01:12:35: In order that all things being piously done according to his good pleasure may be acceptable to him.
01:12:41: Those therefore who present their offerings at the appointed times are accepted and blessed.
01:12:47: And then he goes on in the next chapter to describe how the apostles preached the gospel from Jesus Christ, and then from them come the bishops and the presbyters, the overseers and presbyters, that they were the ones who had been set out to do these offerings.
01:13:07: So we read the letter of Clement, as well as Hebrews, as referring to the ministry of the bishops and overseers.
01:13:15: And yes, there is a commonality. Both of them have a pastoral ministry, a teaching ministry, and they both share the same priestly ministry.
01:13:28: But we believe that not one of those contradicts the others, rather they're all part and parcel of them standing in the place of Christ as another
01:13:37: Christ. So that we who live in the world today can hear that gospel and receive the person of Christ sacramentally, as well as spiritually.
01:14:04: I think it's very important to emphasize that Father Pacwa said the priesthood is constitutive of human beings.
01:14:12: I would like to assert that in the new covenant, all are priests.
01:14:18: The priesthood of believers is the fulfillment of that shadow of the old.
01:14:24: The Council of Trent said the old was transformed into the new priesthood, but there is no evidence of that in the New Testament at all.
01:14:30: We offer ourselves in service. We do not make an offering concerning sin.
01:14:37: For what reason? Because as the scriptures say, Christ by his sacrifice has taken away sin.
01:14:45: If we still have an offering that is related to sin as the mass is, then how has
01:14:50: Christ taken away sin? The mediation of priests has ended with the removal by God of the veil that made the mediatorial priesthood necessary in the first place.
01:15:03: This is a going back to something that the new covenant shows us has been fulfilled.
01:15:11: Now we had a discussion, I think it's very important, of the term Kohen, the meaning of priest, and that the idea, the reason that you don't see this term appearing in the early church is, well, you couldn't.
01:15:23: You couldn't use that term because it was already being used of the Jewish priesthood that still existed prior to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70.
01:15:31: However, I would point out to you, the book of Hebrews clearly violates that very thing by identifying
01:15:37: Jesus who was not a Levitical priest as not just a Kohen, but as the chief priest, the high priest of the people of God.
01:15:46: Hebrews clearly violates this alleged impossibility. And not only that, I would point out to you, the majority of the
01:15:52: New Testament was not written to Palestinian Jews, especially first Timothy, Titus, letters that are gonna be going outside clearly and were written outside of and had destinations outside of anything that would be relevant to Palestinian Judaism.
01:16:09: There would have been no problem with using hierus, the priest, in those situations.
01:16:15: And yet, as we see, that doesn't happen. Instead, we have Paul saying in Philippians chapter three, we are the true circumcision.
01:16:23: Something that again, I would imagine would not be accepted by Father Pacwa's Hebrew professor as well.
01:16:30: Now, we are told, do this in remembrance of me provides a biblical foundation for the concept of a priesthood.
01:16:39: Specifically that the imperative form of poieo, to do from asah in the
01:16:44: Hebrew, that this was used as sacrifices. Well, I think Father Pacwa would also admit that that is a very common verb, not only used in sacrificial context, but outside of that.
01:16:55: But I have no problem with that. Jesus is talking about his sacrifice. But does it mean that by saying, do this in remembrance of me, that we are to understand that to mean that Jesus was actually ordaining the apostles as priests so they could then work the miracle of transubstantiation so as to then present the body of Christ, which has yet to be nailed to the cross the time of this alleged ordination in the sacrifice of the mass.
01:17:25: That's a lot to read into the word to do. Not only that, anamnesis, remembrance.
01:17:32: Yes, that does have sacrificial overtones. And that term is used only of the
01:17:38: Lord's Supper and one other time in the book of Hebrews, where in chapter 10, we read of an anamnesis.
01:17:45: And that is the nature of the old sacrifices because they were repetitive, because they did not in and of themselves perfect anyone, the repetitive nature of the sacrifices were a reminder of sin year by year.
01:18:01: I would point out to you, and this came up in the debate on the subject of the mass. If you can go to mass over and over and over again and not be perfected, then
01:18:13: I submit to you that cannot be a representation of the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ because according to Hebrews chapter 10, that sacrifice perfects those for whom it is made.
01:18:26: And so it is this repetitive nature of the offering of these sacrifices that demonstrates that the sin issue has not yet been dealt with.
01:18:36: But you see, we don't have an anamnesis of sin. We have an anamnesis, a remembrance of the sin bearer who took our sins and took them away as far as the
01:18:48: East is from the West. Now we've been told that, well, the binding and the loosing, this is also indicative of a priestly function, but isn't it interesting that in the context of binding and loosing, that is always in the context of the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:19:07: And it just struck me as I was listening to that, one of the passages that was raised in Father Pacwa's initial presentation is a very important passage.
01:19:16: Romans 15, 16, listen to what it says. To be a minister of Christ Jesus to the
01:19:21: Gentiles, ministering as a priest, what? A sacrifice?
01:19:27: No, the gospel of God. So that my offering of the
01:19:32: Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified or set apart, made holy by the
01:19:38: Holy Spirit. Now that is very clearly sacrificial language, but what is the context? We use this kind of language because we can present a finished sacrifice, not some new sacrifice.
01:19:52: The gospel is of a finished work, not of a work that is ongoing. And so it's interesting to me right here in this passage where you have the most ministerial language.
01:20:03: Paul has no problem, he's writing to the Romans, there wouldn't be a problem about Kohan and things like that. You would think that this would be the one place where we would encounter a discussion of priests if it was in fact the apostle's intention to establish such an office, but such does not appear.
01:20:21: Now we heard Clement of Rome speaks of offerings, but if you'll read all of section 40, and there are
01:20:27: Roman Catholic historians who agree with this very clearly. If you read all of section 40, and by the way, that was not a letter written by one individual.
01:20:37: That was a letter written by the presbyters, plural, at Rome, the name never appears in the letter, to the church at Corinth.
01:20:45: Up until 140 AD, the church at Rome was led by a plurality of elders, not by one single man.
01:20:53: And it is that group of elders that writes to the church at Corinth, and if you'll read section 40, you will see that if there was ever any thought of an early
01:21:03: Christian priesthood, this is where it should have appeared, because he draws from the three orders of priests in the
01:21:09: Old Testament, and it would have been so easy for him to say elders, or bishops, and episkopoi, and presbyteroi, and hieroi, priests, but he doesn't do so.
01:21:23: He only has two offices in the Christian church. There was his opportunity, but he didn't use it, why?
01:21:31: Because the office had not yet developed, it wasn't there.
01:21:36: And so we see again, if we go to the New Testament text itself, do we find a basis for an entire office when we have no qualifications given to us by the
01:21:47: Holy Spirit? No means of selecting these people? We have means of determining who's a good deacon, but not means of someone who is to be an alter
01:21:56: Christus, another Christ? No, my friends, the New Testament does not know of that concept of priesthood.
01:22:03: Thank you. Thank you. I find it interesting that the letter of Clement to the
01:22:26: Corinthians doesn't know anything of the office or distinction of office of the elders and the episcopacy or the bishop, especially since in chapter 44, he says our apostles also knew through our
01:22:43: Lord Jesus Christ and that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate.
01:22:50: For this reason, therefore, in as much as they had obtained a perfect foreknowledge of this, they appointed those already mentioned and afterwards gave instructions that when we should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.
01:23:06: So he's aware that yes, the elders of Rome do write and address it, but he also is well aware that there are elders in the church of Corinth and also the office of the episcopacy of the bishop.
01:23:24: So he does know those quite well and also says that they go back to the apostle who he also says, get it back from Jesus Christ.
01:23:35: Now that's the tradition that he had, that they didn't just make this up, but they also see it as something fulfilling scripture.
01:23:43: And in fact, this Catholic teaching as well as Protestant teaching, that there is a priesthood of all believers had not been forgotten in the
01:23:55: Catholic church. Hopefully the great has at least two letters I know of on it.
01:24:01: And this is something that is part of the Catholic teaching. And I was taught that before the
01:24:08: Vatican council, that by virtue of my baptism, I shared in the priesthood of Christ and all of my participation in the mass as a layman was also a priestly action of praise and worship and offering prayers, as well as sharing in the sacrifice to the priest.
01:24:30: But what I'm also saying is that just as in ancient Israel, where there was a general priesthood through the whole nation of Israel, where they were kingdom of priests, the holy nation, there also was that threefold distinction of high priests, priests, and Levites.
01:24:50: And that that same understanding was used in the early church for understanding these three roles and to separate oneself from those gifts, those sacramental gifts, which the early apostles and Clement believed go back to Jesus Christ as well as the apostles is to cut yourself off from a source of grace.
01:25:15: And that's what we don't want. It's not to have power, but rather for us priests to offer ourselves in service, through the sanctification of our own lives to be sure, which we need, and also of others.
01:25:30: But the Eucharist is not only about the forgiveness of sins. I know that my sins are forgiven.
01:25:38: When I confess my sins to Christ, and I do so through my brother priests,
01:25:44: I believe my sins are forgiven. However, I also know that there are still effects of my sins, memories, temptations, and different proclivities to commit the same sins that don't go away because of my human weakness, not because of Christ.
01:26:02: And what I need in the Eucharist is continued healing of the effects of those sins,
01:26:08: I'm not asking to forgive them again, they're done. But I also need union with Jesus, and that's what
01:26:15: I seek, whether it be in a spiritual kind of union by prayer, or in the sacramental union by which
01:26:22: I receive his body and blood. In case anyone thinks it's unfair that I have this little computer, and Father Pacwa has a big computer.
01:26:50: He'll tell you in 1999, I tried to introduce him to digital little things like that, and I tried, didn't
01:26:57: I? You did, and my superior said no. Well, there you go, there you go. Another problem in having a superior, there you go.
01:27:07: Oh, you got a wife. I'm not gonna touch that on the 10 -foot pole.
01:27:17: Father Pacwa just mentioned from section 44 of the letter of Clement, again, the traditional reading,
01:27:23: I just simply give to you the words of Richard Hansen, again, a very well -known church historian.
01:27:30: His work on the Council of Nicaea, I think, is unparalleled. He discusses the exact same section and makes these words.
01:27:37: He, the writer of the epistle, only knows of two ministries in the Christian church, that of episkopos presbyter, bishop and presbyter being regarded as identical as in Acts 20, 28,
01:27:50: Hermas the Didache and the pastoral epistles in the New Testament, and of deacon. Two cannot correspond to three.
01:27:57: He's referring there to the three levels of the Jewish priesthood that was raised in Clement's epistle.
01:28:05: Again, read that whole section, and you will see very clearly that that is not the indication given to us even in this early epistle.
01:28:14: Now, it is interesting Richard Hansen also made this comment that I think is relevant to our discussion this evening. It is appropriate at this point to pause and ask why the doctrine of a
01:28:23: Christian priesthood, which is absent from the beginnings of the Christian ministry, should have emerged in the third century.
01:28:29: Perhaps it is significant that the epistle to the Hebrews after Tertullian, who refers to it only once or twice and tends to think that it was written by Barnabas, is totally unused in the
01:28:40: Western church until the middle of the fourth century. It does not seem to have been very influential in the
01:28:45: Eastern church during the third century. Clement of Alexandria in origin, their references to it make it clear that its
01:28:51: Pauline authorship was not securely established. This must have tended to reduce its influence, end quote.
01:28:58: Think about that for just a moment. What is in essence being suggested is that if that God -breathed scripture had been known, that it would have had a counteracting effect upon the evolutionary development of the concept of a
01:29:18: Christian priesthood. Well, why might that be? It might be because if anywhere in all of scripture that we should read about priests,
01:29:29: Christian priests, it would be in this epistle. And yet I submit to you that if in fact there were priests offering a representation of the one sacrifice in masses, and this is known to the writer of the
01:29:47: Hebrews, a majority of the arguments that he made for the supremacy of Christ's priesthood against that of the old covenant would thereby be disproven.
01:29:59: And if you make the writer to the Hebrews contradictory to himself, if you have a view that makes his apologetic defense fall flat on its face, then
01:30:11: I submit to you it's your position that is not biblical. The writer to the Hebrews argues against the plurality of old priests and their repetitious sacrifices and if he was defending a system where you had a plurality of priests and a repetitious sacrifice, even if you say it's a representation, that's not a very good apologetic defense, is it?
01:30:36: I want you to consider well this evening, these words and consider with us, even during this break, how important it is that we follow the scriptural paradigm.
01:30:45: Thank you. All right.
01:30:56: First, I want to commend both Father Pacwa and Dr. White for the grace with which they are conducting themselves in the debate.
01:31:03: This has been a wonderful example. Thank you. And I also commend you because your decorum is excellent.
01:31:14: Now it's going to really be tested though during this time of cross -examination. I want to remind you that Father Pacwa and Dr.
01:31:22: White are cross -examining one another. You're not doing it and you're not contributing in it. Use your notes and take notes on what's done.
01:31:30: There will be two times of cross -examination. Each man will sit at his seat. Father Pacwa will cross -examine
01:31:37: Dr. White for 10 minutes and then Dr. White will cross -examine Father Pacwa for 10 minutes and then following that, we'll have the same format in the same order with five -minute speeches.
01:31:50: And then following that, there will be the time of closing statements. You know,
01:32:05: I probably need to get those a little bit closer to you both. Dr.
01:32:20: White, an interesting point you brought up is that, especially in the pastoral epistles, 1 and 2
01:32:29: Timothy and Titus, we see that the functions of the episkopos and the presbyteros, the presbyter and the bishop or overseer, are the same.
01:32:44: And I have no doubt, no problem with that. But why would you draw that they're equivalent since we always see in the pastorals that episkopos is singular and presbyteroi is plural?
01:33:00: Well, because I presented a couple of passages and if I was unclear in the presentation of them,
01:33:06: I apologize. But I pointed out that Paul himself uses the term interchangeably.
01:33:12: Well, I guess you could say it's Luke that uses it interchangeably since he's writing Acts. In Acts chapter 20, because in verse 17, he's sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.
01:33:24: And then when he addressed them, he says, be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, which is plural there.
01:33:33: And so he's uses elders, overseers. He even then uses poimain to the shepherds, the pastoral function.
01:33:42: And so he simply uses them in an interchangeable fashion, not only there, but I'm thinking off the top of my head,
01:33:48: I think in 1 Timothy 4 as well, also in a very just interchangeable fashion. And so I think
01:33:54: Richard Hansen is correct when he says this is not only interchangeable in the
01:33:59: New Testament, but in the earliest documents outside of the New Testament as well. But except again, there is some distinction being made by this singular episkopos and plural presbyter because it also shows up later on in the letters to, excuse me, the letters by St.
01:34:21: Ignatius of Antioch, that there you have each city has its own episkopos, but there is a group of presbyters so that there's a continuity there in that usage.
01:34:35: And perhaps what we see is a development that's going on from the earliest days to this point. Well, there's no question that Ignatius is the first representative of a monarchical episcopate.
01:34:45: There's no question about that. But I think that if you look at J .N .D. Kelly, Richard Hansen, even, I forget the first two letters of Kelly, who's the
01:34:53: Roman Catholic historian, they would all affirm that there were two models that existed at the time.
01:35:00: And I think that that model in the New Testament is what Jerome was talking about when Jerome himself said that it was only after the time of the
01:35:08: New Testament that a distinction was made between presbyters and episkopoi and that it was by custom, not by scriptural mandate.
01:35:16: I think Jerome was correct at that point. Because, again, that would be something that we might distinguish or be in dispute on because even
01:35:29: St. Jerome, who was himself a priest and who wanted to be a bishop and moved out of town when he didn't get it, certainly saw that there was that distinction.
01:35:41: Another issue is, well, you mentioned in the text of Romans, chapter 15, verse 16, that St.
01:35:52: Paul is exercising that priestly ministry of preaching the gospel. And, again, no doubt of that.
01:36:01: A key element of the priestly ministry is the proclamation of the gospel and we wouldn't have
01:36:07: Mass without it. We just can't, that's not valid. But would you see that as precluding the celebration of the sacrifice?
01:36:19: There's nothing in the text that I can see that would say the priestly ministry is just preaching the gospel and has nothing to do with the sacrificial element of the
01:36:30: Eucharist, again, assuming that, I know you don't accept the sacrificial notion. That is the problem, is that I can't just assume that.
01:36:39: I think it's incumbent upon you to demonstrate that that is a necessary element of the text, especially in light of the lack of any use of that term, especially in the pastoral epistles that discuss the very function of the church.
01:36:53: But in reference to Romans 15, 16, the object of what he is offering or ministering as a priest, as you can see, is the euangelion to theu, the gospel of God.
01:37:07: And so that is what he is ministering. And as a result, the Gentiles, and how did he consider himself, as the apostle to the
01:37:15: Gentiles? That he saw his ministry as an offering to God. And I think all of us can see our ministries as an offering to God, but I don't see anywhere in that anything close to what we read in O 'Brien's
01:37:26: Faith of Millions and the giving of a mediatorial priesthood in that way.
01:37:34: Another role of an interesting text, you mentioned, we both mentioned, where the text in Revelation, where there's this kingdom of priests.
01:37:46: And yet, in the same book, especially in chapter five, but elsewhere too, the elders, the 24 elders, who are the presbyteroid, would you see, and obviously
01:37:59: I do, them exercising a priestly ministry in offering of the incense, perhaps along the model of the 24 ranks of Levites?
01:38:09: Well, first of all, I believe they're to be heavenly creatures, and certainly the whole picture that is taking place is a picture of worship that draws heavily from all the
01:38:20: Old Testament paradigms, including Isaiah six and everything like that. So there is no question that those 24 elders and the four living creatures and the seven spirits of God and everything else fall into a category of worshiping
01:38:37: God in that way. And if you wanted to say in a priestly fashion, that's fine. The distinction that I make,
01:38:43: I think, is a distinction that is necessary in light of the canonicity of the book of Hebrews. And that is,
01:38:50: I do not see anything there that these have anything to do with atonement or propitiation.
01:38:57: And I think we both know that atonement and propitiation in regards to the
01:39:02: Eucharist is essential, constitutive, to use your term, of the Roman Catholic concept. All right, but just to keep the first point, before we get to Hebrews, the offering of incense in the
01:39:17: Old Testament is a priestly task. That was not something that the lay people could do.
01:39:23: As a matter of fact, even to mix the incense for the altar was something that was punishable by death, yet alone to offer it.
01:39:34: And so in that sense, we see that the presbyters of Revelation seem to me to be acting in a very sacerdotal way.
01:39:44: In heaven and not in reference to sin. Right, in heaven and in reference to offering, precisely, offering of our prayers.
01:39:52: The prayers of the saints are the incense that they offer. But my point would be to see that the term presbyter is associated in the
01:40:05: New Testament in yet another, not the only, and maybe not, and certainly not what
01:40:11: I consider the key, but it is an important priestly function that presbyters are, so that the connection of that term with priestly functions is going on in Revelation.
01:40:22: Well, interestingly enough, though, that use of presbyter is obviously distinguished very clearly from that of the presbyters of the church on earth that are placed in that position so as to teach and lead the people of God.
01:40:36: The term elder, as you pointed out, is used in a number of different ways in the Old Testament. And so I don't think that you could really make a real strong argument, especially since, again, as I understand it, from your position, well, from the
01:40:50: Council of Trent's position, this is a position upon which the anathema of the church is used, hence it's very important.
01:40:55: And the concept of a sacrificial, mediatorial priesthood in the church, if the basis of that is the picture of elders in heaven who are not doing anything in regards to offering for sin,
01:41:10: I just, I don't see the connections. Yeah, the only connection would be that priestly function is associated with the presbyteral language, and that that's something that's already established by the end of the first century.
01:41:23: In a context other than the officers of the church, yes. Right, right. And perhaps then also, that opens up that possibility is the point
01:41:33: I would be making. That you can see that if they see elders in that kind of context, they're already showing that they've changed some of the language from Judaism's language to something that they themselves are developing.
01:41:48: That would, that of course, the problem I have with that is that that would require not only a certain dating and relationship of the
01:41:56: New Testament documents as if there's some development going on, but my main concern is that I don't see how well it opens up a possibility is equal to the anathema.
01:42:09: There's a possibility in anathema seems to me beyond different sides of things. Yeah, the anathema would be something different because it is specifically related to the priestly function as offering sacrifice.
01:42:22: All right. Okay, why do you think,
01:42:29: Father Pacwa, when Paul wrote the pastoral epistles in which he addressed the officers of the church, their qualifications, things like that, is it your assertion that he did not mention the office of priest or the priesthood because of, even though he's writing outside of Palestine, there was something about using the term
01:42:49: Kohen? I really didn't follow what you meant by that. Okay. One of the issues
01:42:56: I was thinking about in terms of the use of Kohen and Komer is that it's something which
01:43:02: St. Paul, as himself formerly a Pharisee and himself a
01:43:08: Jew, would find a great deal of difficulty in using because both terms would just go against his own grain.
01:43:17: And he's, again, it would just be a normal Jewish reaction that you can't call someone who's not born a
01:43:26: Kohen a Kohen, with one exception, of course, which I'll get to.
01:43:31: And then you don't like to use the word Komer because it's such an insulting term.
01:43:38: And it's used to insult those who worship Baal or the other deities in Zephaniah and in Kings.
01:43:46: So he himself is going to have that reaction against using terminology he was raised for, in a certain context, to understand.
01:43:58: And he can't, I don't think it's difficult, it's easy for him to, especially with his Pharisee background, to use it.
01:44:05: So evidently you don't believe that Paul wrote Hebrews, right? I suspect he didn't.
01:44:11: The style of the Greek is itself so different. And then like the Eastern fathers, who knew
01:44:17: Greek better than the Western fathers, I suspect that it's not Paul, but Paul certainly, I even suspect perhaps
01:44:24: Luke. The writer to the Hebrews, however, did not seemingly have the compunction against using that term that you're referring to there.
01:44:32: Now, please accept this next question in the spirit in which it is offered. Yeah. Okay. If presbyters became overtime priests, and we are told the presbyters are to be husbands of one wife in Titus 1, five through six, well, where's
01:44:47: Mrs. Pacwa? My wife's right over there. My mom died, that's the last
01:44:54: Mrs. Pacwa we had. The point being, of course, the point being, of course, not to introduce the discussion of what you would call a discipline of celibacy, but if this development of presbyter into priest is to be valid, wouldn't all of the qualifications and functions that are found in Titus 1 and 1
01:45:18: Timothy 3, likewise then have to be transferred into the priesthood? And there are a number of things that the elders are to do that don't necessarily fit within what
01:45:28: I would understand the priestly requirements to be. Certainly in the Roman Rite of the
01:45:34: Catholic Church, we don't have married clergy very often. The, in the
01:45:42: Eastern Rites, they do, so that that's fairly normal. In terms of the marriage as a requirement, this is something that is not said as necessary.
01:45:56: I agree. It's something that behooves you to be the husband of one wife. And in the early church, that was understood as meaning, if your wife dies and you're a presbyter, you may not remarry.
01:46:09: And also, if you were, as time did develop, if you were married when you became a presbyter, then you and your wife had to cease marital relations, especially, and that was especially true, it's more strongly true if you were a bishop.
01:46:23: If you became a bishop, then you had to cease marital relations. And that was an expectation of the laity as well.
01:46:31: Well, doesn't it follow though, in that situation that we have a clear example where in the
01:46:36: New Testament, the qualifications of the presbyter are being, in essence, contradicted and countermanded?
01:46:43: I mean, what you just said, which I wasn't going to address, what you just said in regards to ceasing marital relations, that almost makes it sound like there's something wrong with that when it's something that God ordained.
01:46:55: And it seems to me at the presbyter, if this is the New Testament basis, either that or you're saying, no, we've gone way past what the
01:47:04: New Testament gives. If you're saying that, then I think that makes my point. Here's the sense that I have.
01:47:11: And in terms of, once I need to address the Mrs. Pacwa kind of concept, because there is another,
01:47:19: I don't consider myself to be a bachelor in any way at all. That's not my approach.
01:47:26: But the sense that I have is that because I sacramentally represent
01:47:32: Christ as an altar Christos, and I accept that as part of my role, I see myself wedded to the same bride as Christ, namely the church.
01:47:42: And that my sense of loving the church as my spouse is very much part of my life.
01:47:50: And I want to love the church with that kind of devotion of a husband to a spouse.
01:47:56: In case people didn't hear. When you applause, you are wasting the time of the speakers.
01:48:11: I just wanna make sure that people understood what was said before. The term altar
01:48:16: Christos means what? Another Christ. Another Christ. I just wanna make sure everyone understands that. Now the book of Hebrews speaks more of priests and priesthood than any other
01:48:24: New Testament book outside of the historical references in the gospels. Yet the only Christian priest in Hebrews is
01:48:30: Christ, would it not have been a glaring error of argumentation on the part of the author and hence easily refuted if in fact the counsel of Trent was right and the
01:48:38: Christian church at that particular point in time had priests in her midst who repetitiously offered a sacrifice that does not perfect anyone for whom it is made.
01:48:48: First of all, one of the things about the use of priest in the letter to the
01:48:53: Hebrews is that it comes from the use in Genesis 14 and Psalm 110 verse four, which are the only two places that I could find, there might be others that I don't know of, but the only two places
01:49:06: I could find where a non -Israelite is called a Cohen, namely Melchizedek. So that atah
01:49:14: Cohen aldeebrat melchizedek in Psalm 110 and also in Genesis 14, he is called a
01:49:23: Cohen, El Elyon. And so this use of priest for someone outside of Israel is the one person and then
01:49:35: Christ priesthood seen in that light of the Melchizedek as a superior priesthood to the
01:49:40: Levitical priesthood is precisely the point. Now, in terms of understanding what we're doing,
01:49:50: I would definitely admit that what the Catholic church believes it's doing is saying something based on what we believe that the
01:49:59: New Testament means. And then we're drawing some more lines between the dots, just as all
01:50:07: Christians who are Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic or the Eastern churches have to draw different lines in between the dots about the blessed
01:50:17: Trinity. And that's part of the point of the book that you did. You see very clearly that what is meant in the
01:50:24: New Testament is the blessed Trinity. And that this is something that yeah, the word that the
01:50:30: Jehovah's Witnesses are right, the word is not there, but that doesn't mean it's unbiblical by any means.
01:50:35: The only way to understand the biblical doctrine is with the Trinity concept. Similarly, we believe that the priesthood of Christ and then us taking that those actions of celebrating the
01:50:47: Eucharist and of hearing confessions and the other sacraments as well are taking
01:50:54: Christ's priestly activities in this very sacramental way and representing them today.
01:51:03: And that's where we are definitely, we are drawing dots between our actions and Christ's priestly action.
01:51:08: Are you drawing a parallel between the clarity and perspicuity of the biblical evidence concerning the doctrine of the
01:51:19: Trinity and the concept of the priesthood as you've enunciated this evening?
01:51:26: As a matter of fact, given the way that all the churches until the 16th century have seen that clarity, yes.
01:51:36: Because there's nobody who denies that whether it be the Armenians, the Siro -Malabar down in Southern India, the
01:51:44: Jacobites over in China, or the European and Mediterranean communities, we all see the same connection.
01:51:53: So the biblical evidence is as clear and strong to you that even though the term doesn't appear and isn't used, and even though the first generations of Christians don't use this language, it's as clear to you that the
01:52:05: New Testament presents a mediatory sacramental priesthood as that the New Testament teaches the
01:52:12: Trinity. Yes. Absolutely. And it'd be something that just like the
01:52:18: Trinity, I would also consider my life not as worthwhile as changing my faith.
01:52:26: So that just as I would lay down my life for the Trinity, similarly with the sacraments and the church.
01:52:40: Let's see. I lost, the last question sort of lost my train of thought.
01:52:59: Here it is. Oh, yeah. All right,
01:53:07: Dr. White. In most
01:53:13: Protestant communions, matter of fact, all Christian communions must believe that we are washed in the blood of the lamb,
01:53:24: Jesus Christ, he's the lamb of God. And salvation depends on being cleansed by his blood, his saving blood.
01:53:32: That would be the language of scripture that would be across the board for all denominations. Correct?
01:53:38: Yes. Now, how is it that that belief does not contradict the singularity of the sacrifice of Jesus while the repetition of mass does?
01:53:55: A number of reasons. A, due to the belief of the union of God's elect people with Jesus Christ so that they, as Paul can say,
01:54:04: I have been crucified with Christ, is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. In life, as I now live in the flesh,
01:54:10: I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. So there is a union of the elect with God, with Jesus Christ.
01:54:19: And that results in both his death being our death and his resurrection being our resurrection.
01:54:25: Secondly, is the belief that the atoning work of Jesus Christ is specifically able to perfect all those for whom it is made.
01:54:34: As you know, I am a reformed theologian. I believe that the death of Christ perfects those for whom it is made.
01:54:40: It is not a theoretical atonement. It is an actual atonement due to the union of the elect with Christ.
01:54:46: And therefore, my argument is, you may recall, of course, this has been January of 1991, right before the
01:54:55: Gulf War began. We've had two wars since then. When we discussed the issue of the mass and debate, my primary argumentation was that according to Hebrews 10, verses 10 through 14, that one offering of Christ takes away sin and perfects for all time those for whom it is made.
01:55:15: And so when I look at the mass and I ask, and I can't ask you a question in cross -examination, but I ask you, can you go to mass repeatedly and yet commit a mortal sin and be lost?
01:55:29: Can you have to spend time in purgatory? That is not perfection. And so you can approach the mass 10 ,000 times in your life and die imperfect.
01:55:39: That, to me, is the fundamental issue. And I recognize that's a explicitly reformed response to that, it's not what you're probably used to hearing as far as objections are concerned, but that's what mine has been consistently.
01:55:51: Yeah, no, no, it is what I've heard. Because within the church, including the reformed church, there's a kind of perfection that you have by faith and also that you believe that you have, and yet also a perfection that is not seen because of the simile justus epicator, you're justified and still a sinner.
01:56:15: So that you still have an actual kind of imperfection and yet Christ gives you this perfection that covers it over, is the normal kind of image.
01:56:27: In the invitation of his perfect righteousness. Right, yeah, that he, but the person may not actually live that righteousness fully and perfectly in this life, though they'd be considered as righteous.
01:56:39: The only way that I can stand before God is clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
01:56:45: And I think that is what the writer of Hebrews is saying when he says, by this will, which is the will of God, the father for Jesus Christ, quoting from the
01:56:52: Psalms, by this will, we have been sanctified. Paraphrastic construction with an emphasis on the fact that that's a continuing state.
01:57:00: We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Emphasis upon the temporal adverb.
01:57:09: It's interesting to me, and I'm not sure if you're aware of this, the Vulgate mistranslates this. It uses offerance, a plural,
01:57:16: I'm sorry, a present, rather than accurately reflecting the
01:57:22: Greek, which I find very interesting and may have had some impact upon the development of Eucharistic theology in the
01:57:28: Middle Ages as well. Perhaps, though the participle is often taken as a state of, that also indicates past.
01:57:35: But look at the Douay Rheims. It's talking about, it even says he is offering in the
01:57:40: Douay Rheims, which is amazing. And that would be where the mistake comes in, but the Latin would be different. The thing that,
01:57:49: I guess, since each Christian has to appropriate that being washed in the blood of the
01:57:55: Lamb, that's not a recrucifixion of Christ for that to happen. That's once for all, and yet each
01:58:00: Christian must appropriate that. When you say each Christian must appropriate that, I would understand that as the work of the
01:58:07: Holy Spirit of God in applying that. Appropriate sounds like something I do to gain something, and I view it more as the
01:58:15: Holy Spirit applying what has already been accomplished in Christ. Okay, I have five minutes.
01:58:28: Not gonna steal my five minutes. The Council of Trent said, quote, that this was instituted by the same
01:58:37: Lord our Savior and that to the apostles and their successors in the priesthood was given the power of consecrating, offering, and administering his body and blood as also forgiving and retaining sins as shown by the sacred scriptures and has always been taught by the tradition of the
01:58:50: Catholic Church. You would agree with that. But Jesuit scholar Avery Dulles said, nowhere in the
01:58:56: New Testament are the ministers of the new covenant called priests. Now, how do you reconcile these two statements?
01:59:06: Simply, I also am a Jesuit like Cardinal Dulles, and I said the same thing.
01:59:14: They don't use the word priests, so I admitted that at the outset and then gave, said this is a perplexing issue, and we have to try to understand it from the
01:59:25: Judeo -Christian background, and that's why I went into the explanation of the different terms.
01:59:31: So that, yeah, I admit they don't use that word. However, when you see that the term elder is used and is chosen, as I mentioned already, in Revelation, where a group of angelic beings or heavenly beings of some kind, their nature isn't defined, but they exercise a priestly function of offering the incense of our prayers for us, and also we see that elders throughout the
02:00:00: Old Testament have roles closely associated with the sacrificial actions on, for instance, at the offering of the covenant -making sacrifice meal, like Christ's apostles are present at that sacrificing meal, and also some of the other sacrifices where the elders were present.
02:00:24: But the elders were not ever functioning as priests, were they? Well, see, this is one of the things. They partake in the meal.
02:00:31: But they don't offer the sacrifice. But they, well, Moses offers and actually does the killing.
02:00:38: And in one sense, the early church is using for, looking for a set of terms different from the
02:00:47: Jewish priestly terms that they would have such difficulty using, and they come to a set of terms that mean office, refer to office within Israel, and an office that gets associated with a wide variety of sacrificial meals and covenant renewals, and that it's precisely at the first Eucharist, at the
02:01:10: Last Supper, which is the beginning of the new covenant. This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant, using the same terminology of that sacrificial meal that the elders are invited to, made it seem an appropriate text, a term for the early church to use.
02:01:30: To your knowledge, who is the earliest in the early church to utilize, for example, the passage from Revelation as being relevant to the concept of a
02:01:40: Christian priesthood? That I don't know who is the first to use that. I just haven't done a study of it in terms of its -
02:01:48: Do you know what the earliest appearance of terminology like alter Christus would be? No, that I don't know.
02:01:54: Okay. So would you agree, but say it in, Joseph Martos said, the earliest
02:02:02: Christian community contained a variety of ministries, but priesthood was not one of them. Among all these named ministries, however, there was no specifically priestly ministry, no priesthood in the later
02:02:13: Catholic sense. There were no specific Christians who were called priests. Now, you might agree with the last line, but I can't believe you could agree with what came previously, because it sounds to me like what you're saying is the presbyters were functioning as the priesthood, and he's saying, no, they were not.
02:02:28: I know. Would you disagree with him? I would disagree with that. And the reason for it being that in their role as presbyters, and especially in associating with the episcopacy that we see, certainly by the time of Ignatius of Antioch, more clearly spelled out, how we don't see the
02:02:46: New Testament spelling out the distinction of the roles of episkopos and presbyter.
02:02:53: But, you know, they're talking about they share that, though there is a distinction, one episkopos in the pastoral letters, and many
02:03:01: Presbyterian even, the use of this presbyterate community or council.
02:03:07: And what we see developed in the, someone like Ignatius, and as time goes on, that they are all exercising the priestly function in the offering of the
02:03:20: Eucharist, and Clement's use of sacrificial language, the offering language, as well as Hebrews, mentioning that we have a table, excuse me, an altar, that kind of language is what helps me to see this as a priestly role that they have, even though they can't use traditional
02:03:40: Jewish terminology of priesthood. This brings us to the two 10 -minute closing statements by the speaker, first by Father Feinberg, and then by Dr.
02:03:53: Dwight. Then we'll have a very, very brief break, and we will go right into the question time.
02:04:00: Again, we should be done, we will be done at 11 o 'clock tonight. Certainly, the issue is not just one of words.
02:04:31: No, we had to deal with words. Words are very important. They communicate various concepts.
02:04:41: And Jesus Christ is himself called the Word, through whom, and by whom, and for whom everything exists.
02:04:52: And so words are something that we must understand, engage in, and discuss.
02:05:01: And I've appreciated the kind of discussion that we've had tonight. And, but it also helps to make clear that behind it, behind both positions, is not just a different sense of specific words.
02:05:18: It's a whole sense of the economy of salvation, on both sides, and how we understand the perfection.
02:05:28: We both believe that only Jesus Christ can perfect us. I firmly believe that.
02:05:34: Absolutely would affirm that, and would die for it. And so does,
02:05:40: I'm sure, Dr. White. He has no difficulty. The problem that we have throughout our debates, a problem that goes back to the 16th century, is a problem of how do we understand the way that human beings appropriate, make their own, the action of God's grace.
02:06:05: We Catholics believe, again, hopefully with our lives, that salvation is not something we accomplish by our own deeds, on our own actions.
02:06:19: It is not something we can earn. The salvation that Jesus Christ has won for us is a free gift from God, because, as Pope John Paul quotes more often than any other passage of scripture,
02:06:35: God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that all who believe in him might have eternal life.
02:06:44: And so this is something that we believe, and share in common. However, that means of understanding the appropriation, is it going to be the way that the churches, even in many ways, independently of each other, in Ethiopia, at one southern extreme,
02:07:06: India, at a southeastern extreme, China, Armenia, Russia, and all of Western Europe, do we understand that this traditional way of seeing
02:07:21: God, who let Jesus Christ take on human flesh in order to redeem us, and engage us in that process of a relationship of redemption, and accepted the fact, as a matter of fact, so cherished the fact that we have bodies, that he used sacraments which our bodies can perceive in order to redeem our souls, the way he took on a human body as God Almighty, and truly became incarnate in order to redeem human souls, and eventually human bodies in the resurrection of the dead, for that is our goal, that full union with Christ.
02:08:08: And in that, he left us something, not just as a one -time event that's just a prayer, namely the
02:08:18: Eucharist, it's not just something that we hold on to as a form of devotion, and that all that really counts is the act of faith
02:08:33: I make, but rather he gave us that sacrament, that outward sign, as a sacrificial sign, it has to us
02:08:47: Catholics, no meaning outside of its own Eucharistic and sacrificial terminology, because it is so absolutely as rooted in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as his baptism, for we are baptized into his death in order to rise with him as Paul tells us in Romans six, and it's because of the sacrament of baptism being a way for us to enter into the death and resurrection of Jesus by which we're saved, that St.
02:09:22: Peter can say in 1 Peter 3, that baptism now saves us, and so also do
02:09:31: I believe that receiving the body of Christ and the blood of Christ, receiving the person of Christ is a sacrificial event, and this event requires ministers, somebody has to say those words, and somebody says them, not because he has chosen himself to simply do it, because we don't appoint ourselves as priests, but rather somebody does this sacrificial event and celebrates this sacrificial event for the sake of the community, not for himself, so that he might bring
02:10:20: Christ to other people, and that's the most important thing, is bringing Christ to others, for the forgiveness of sins, absolutely, venial sins, those sins that are not the sins that lead toward death that 1
02:10:34: John chapter five mentions, those have to be dealt with in another kind of sacrificial event, namely the sacrament of confession, but in that sacrament of the
02:10:49: Eucharist, we can find the forgiveness of sins that we've committed since the last time we've been to mass, because as anybody who lives with me knows,
02:11:00: I commit sins even after I've confessed doing the same sin, that one sin surely is forgiven, but I keep doing more, and I keep needing deeper reconciliation with Christ and with the people around me, and I come to him, and I not only come to him myself,
02:11:21: I bring him to others, that's my role as an alter Christus, not that I have a greater holiness by virtue of celebrating the mass, by my own ability, but rather it's a grace from God that I desire to share, and hope
02:11:40: I share to my dying day, but we also know that Christians of the other communities do believe in a type of spiritual communion,
02:11:53: I have no doubt of that, and I recognize and I thank God for it, that seeking to be washed in the blood of the lamb,
02:12:01: I think is very much an act of spiritual holy communion with Christ, you do want union, and I appreciate that, because I know when the
02:12:11: Christians I work with and live with, who are not Catholic, that they also have this tremendous love of Christ that I share with them, and the only thing that I can say though, is that in addition to that spiritual experience,
02:12:30: Christ left us that sacrifice of the mass, and the experience of Christ's cross being present in the confessional, and anointing of the sick that James says the presbyters are to do, that these gifts are all part of the economy of the salvation
02:12:53: Christ gives us, and I would urge none of you to hold yourself short from it, because in it you don't lose any of the good that Christ is already working within you in your communities, but rather it brings a completion about, because it is so much in consonance with the way
02:13:19: Christ gave us this gift, as we Catholics, Orthodox, and other groups believe, and do
02:13:28: I believe that Jesus ordained the apostles as priests, gave them a ministry that is sacramental and priestly, yes
02:13:36: I do, just as I believe that by his word the very universe came into existence, and that nothing came into existence without his word, so also do
02:13:52: I believe that his holy word had the power to transform bread and wine into the substance of his body and blood, without which we cannot have eternal life as he teaches us in John six, and that his word is also able to be a command that transforms apostles, cowardly men, scared men, braggarts into his priests, and yes
02:14:19: Judas was one too, not all priests are good, but that kind of judgment
02:14:26: I'll leave to all of you, thank you. Those of you who know me, know that there's one thing that, well
02:14:58: I'll admit really gets my dander up, not sure if that works, and I know that it was not purposeful on the part of Father Pacwa this evening, but I must confess that the discussion that we had concerning the biblical evidence for the doctrine of the
02:15:22: Trinity, being parallel and equal to the evidence for the idea of a priesthood in the
02:15:31: New Testament, a priesthood that we have heard defended on the basis of heavenly creatures, we could defend almost anything out of the book of Revelation if we wanted to start drawing parallels there, what's the parallel to the multi -headed creatures and things like that, we could come up with any office we wanted to, there is nothing in the
02:15:51: New Testament concerning this office, we've had to turn presbyters into priests later on, and yet to say that the biblical evidence is equal for these two things,
02:16:03: I truly, no offense sir, but I find that offensive to my God, the
02:16:08: Bible is so clear on the deity of Christ, the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit, the relationship of the three divine persons, that to say that the evidence is equal for the idea of a priesthood that Roman Catholic historians and theologians admit developed later as a process of evolution,
02:16:29: I simply cannot even begin to accept such a supposition, and I would challenge it and ask you, does this not demonstrate that there is another authority active in the use of the text of scripture here, and I think this comes out, it has been mentioned, well, there's only one
02:16:45: Episcopal there in those letters, but then you've got many presbyteroi, the problem is just think for a moment, if you're talking about the qualification of an elder, are you gonna use a single or a plural?
02:16:57: You're talking about the individual, the husband of one wife, not given to wine, not given to being argumentative, why would you use a plural there?
02:17:07: There's a simple reason why there's a distinction between the plural and the singular, the simple fact of the matter is, there is no biblical distinction between those two words, they are used interchangeably, without that particular aspect, without that distinction, the entirety of the presentation this evening from a biblical perspective collapses, because we don't have the use, we did have the assertion, well, the
02:17:33: New Testament writers just couldn't use that term priest, I see absolutely no reason to accept that, not only is that derived from a modern usage and not an ancient usage, a teacher of Hebrew today does not provide us with an insight into the understanding of first century
02:17:52: Judaism, but despite that, the very epistles in books that use the terms of elder and bishop and things like that, are not written in Hebrew, they are not written in the context of first century
02:18:05: Judaism, and they are not written to first century Jews, they're written outside of Palestine, there is simply no reason to accept this assumption that well, this is why the term doesn't appear, no, the term doesn't appear because no one had come up with the concept, there was only one priest for the
02:18:22: Christians, and that was Jesus Christ, he had done away with sin by the sacrifice of himself, and that was it, we don't need to go back to the old way, we now have the holy priesthood in the sense of all of us, men and women who are priests, and what do we offer?
02:18:38: We offer sacrifice of praise in our lives and our bodies in service to Christ, never anything in reference to sin, it is true, it was just said that the real issue here is the economy of salvation, it was said that only
02:18:57: Jesus Christ can perfect us, and again, it was exactly right when it was said, what we differ on is how he does so, the means that he uses, it was said this goes back to the 16th century,
02:19:10: I submit to you, it goes back long before that, because the difference is between God perfectly saving his people to his own glory and honor, and all of man's religious systems that say that God wants to save, tries to save, makes a theoretical salvation available, but he is thwarted in his stated desire by the almighty will of the creature, and that my friends goes back to Romans chapter nine, not the 16th century, the discussion in the 16th century brought that back to light, but that's not how far back it goes,
02:19:54: Ludwig Ott said in fundamentals of Catholic dogma, the reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in just this, that without a supernatural revelation, no one can know for certain whether they have fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for achieving justification, fulfilling conditions which are necessary for achieving justification, what are some of those conditions?
02:20:17: Well, we just heard a discussion of, well, you need to be forgiven of your sins, and then there's the sacramental forgiveness in the sacrament of penance and confession, and by the way, those are all, the whole sacramental system, again,
02:20:34: Roman Catholic historians will admit that that was something that developed over time, it was not something that was present from the very beginning, though it has been assumed in a number of the statements this evening that it has been present from the very start, it was not, look at the documents for yourself without reading them from the modern perspective, looking back, oh, this sounds like something we believe now, and that sounds like something we believe now, read it from back then, and discover that many of those things did not exist at that time, but we're told, well, there's these sacramental things we must do, and there's the mass, and there's confession, and there's things like that, you know,
02:21:12: I sort of prefer Romans 5 .1, therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
02:21:22: Lord Jesus Christ, it's something that I have, it's something that I have only through Christ, and it's something that I have only by faith, and His grace, and nothing that anyone who calls themselves an alter
02:21:34: Christus, another Christ can do, is going to do anything to bring me peace with God, this is vitally important, because we are talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ this evening, is it something that is mediated by a special class of mediatorial priests who embrace this term, alter
02:21:57: Christus, I do not need an alter Christus, the one
02:22:05: I have is more than sufficient in and of himself, and you must understand, if you're a
02:22:11: Roman Catholic this evening, I, please understand, when I hear that phrase, even putting the best understanding
02:22:20: I can possibly have upon it, you must understand that that touches the very heart of this issue, is it
02:22:27: Christ alone, or solus Christus, Christ alone, or is there all this mediation, remember the very first debate, this is the eighth, the very first debate, remember what it was on, it was on Mary, with Gerry Matytix, and one of the issues that we addressed at that point in time, was this concept of Mary as a mediatrix, not one who's equal with Christ, but one who participates in his mediatorial work, and the statement of Pope's, that not one bit of grace, by God's decree comes to man, but through Mary, and Roman Catholics need to understand, that touches the very heart of the issue of the gospel, because you see, from our perspective, to even for a moment, entertain such a concept, is to take from Jesus Christ, the very thing that the gospel says, it's all about, and that is to the praise of his glorious grace, that's why we cannot accept such terminology, it is not biblical, it is not ancient, and it strikes at the very gospel, itself, blessed is the man, whose sin the
02:23:52: Lord, will not take into account, that blessing is not mediated, through a sacramental mediatorial priesthood, that blessing is directly mine, as you may recall, as the gospel writers account, when
02:24:11: Christ died upon the cross, that veil which stood between the holy presence of God, and sinful man, was torn from the top, to the bottom,
02:24:22: God opened the way directly into his presence, through Jesus Christ in him alone,
02:24:28: I do not need any other mediators, thank you very much.
02:24:41: You don't mind if we just go to questions. For the sake of time, because we only have 14 minutes left,
02:24:56: I've condensed the questions, and both of the men have consented to deal with them, and I've clustered them, first to Father Pacwa, and then we'll let
02:25:04: Dr. White respond, and let me cluster these Father Pacwa, you can answer them as you like, I am a
02:25:10: Protestant, not under the authority of Rome's priests, is there salvation for me? If yes, then why is the
02:25:17: Roman priesthood necessary? Must I confess to a Roman Catholic priest, in order to have forgiveness of sin?
02:25:24: Must I be under the authority of a priest, in order to have salvation? And if a Christian knowingly rejects the
02:25:30: Roman Catholic idea of a priest, is it possible for them to receive reconciliation to God, that is salvation, not purgatory?
02:25:38: You can answer from there. One of the things that the
02:25:48: Catholic Church definitely accepts, is that a person also must follow their conscience, to the best of their ability to form it, and to obey that conscience.
02:26:01: And one of the things that we also know, is that a, in conscience, non -Catholic
02:26:10: Christians have certainly accepted Christ, as the Lord and Savior, the meaning of it, and being a
02:26:18: Christian. And so, according to the lights that a person has, then it's something that is possible to receive, and reconciliation is something that's possible to receive, because a person is coming to Christ as the
02:26:37: Redeemer. Now, if you are a
02:26:43: Catholic, you only must confess sins to a priest, if you've committed mortal sin.
02:26:51: We distinguish mortal sin in terms of, something that's grave matter, like murder, and something that you do knowing that it's grave matter, and that you freely choose to do.
02:27:07: So you can't commit a mortal sin by accident, okay? And if a
02:27:14: Catholic has not committed a mortal sin, then they too are not under a moral obligation, to go to confession.
02:27:23: Should they? I do, whether I'm in a state of mortal sin or not. Because it's something that I find as a great gift, in order to be able to have my sins forgiven, including the lesser sins that are not deadly.
02:27:43: And, let's see, must I be under the authority of a priest, in order to have salvation?
02:27:50: Well, A, of course you have to be under the authority of Jesus Christ, the one true high priest. That again, everybody would agree on.
02:27:59: And then in terms of a priest, when you say to be under the authority of, that's a funny way to talk to me.
02:28:11: In my mind, not talk to me, but to me, it comes across as odd language.
02:28:17: I don't see myself as under the authority of a priest, even though I have my superiors as my authorities.
02:28:25: But it's not the same thing as this. Do I need the priest's ministry?
02:28:31: Yes, yes. And it's best, is it possible to say, be baptized a
02:28:38: Christian, right? And go to death, and go right to heaven?
02:28:45: Of course it is. You don't have to be baptized by a priest. We know that. A lady lay
02:28:51: Catholic can baptize in a state of emergency.
02:28:56: But do you need the authority that Jesus Christ gave his priests? Look, as far as I'm concerned, if Jesus Christ gives a gift, why would somebody say no to it?
02:29:09: It's not a matter of, do I gotta do this just to make it? The issue is, what has
02:29:14: Christ given us? He's given us the authority to loose sins and to bind sins, something
02:29:21: I can only do if I hear confession. And also, he gives me the authority, by telling me to do this in remembrance of him, to say this is my body, this is my blood.
02:29:34: Why would you turn away from a gift that Christ offers you? So that's the key to me, not the authority.
02:29:43: And must I be under the authority of the Roman Catholic sacraments to receive spiritual healing and growth?
02:29:51: Again, it sounds in so many ways to me as if it's a running away from the authority of a dictatorial priesthood trying to run your life.
02:30:07: That's not the way I experience Catholicism. And I have plenty of priests over me, but I don't find it in that way.
02:30:16: Do you need the sacraments? Yes, because these are signs of Jesus Christ giving himself to us.
02:30:25: Is it authority that's the key issue? When a wife loves her husband, he's in charge of the family, he's the head of the family, right?
02:30:38: But if she is always saying, I have to be under the authority of my husband, and she's always thinking about authority, what kind of love relationship is that?
02:30:49: I don't look at the sacraments as some sort of authority under whose thumb I must rest.
02:30:55: I look at these as the way that Jesus Christ touches me and comes to me, heals me, transforms me, gives me himself primarily.
02:31:07: And that's what I look for. So it's a funny business to me to talk about it. I'm a
02:31:12: Protestant not under the authority of Rome's priest, the Pope. Is there salvation for you?
02:31:17: We already kind of answered that, right? So yeah, I mean, you're following your conscience. And if your conscience is saying, the
02:31:24: Pope is trying to run my life, I oftentimes hear people even say, the Pope wants to be in everybody's bedroom.
02:31:31: You flatter yourselves. He has no interest in what's going on in your bedroom. What he wants is
02:31:36: God in your bedroom. That's the key. So that God has the authority over the marriage bed and over the birth of children, that it's
02:31:45: God who gives life. God is the one who touches what goes on inside the womb of a woman, long after the man is gone.
02:31:53: And that's the interest that the Pope has, to teach that, allow God to give life when he chooses to give life and not to stop it.
02:32:01: But the issue is not to be under Rome's authority under this stuff. And I guarantee, as far as I know, you're following your conscience to the best of your ability.
02:32:10: You want to serve God and obey him. I know you want to obey the scriptures. I know that.
02:32:17: And I trust that God, our Lord, will have mercy on you, just as I trust that he has mercy on me.
02:32:25: And why is it necessary to have the Roman Catholic priesthood? Because we believe Jesus Christ gave it to us.
02:32:31: Dr. White, your response. Well, I will attempt to be very brief in regards to what was just said concerning salvation.
02:32:41: The Council of Florence views the 17th Ecumenical Council, said it firmly believes, professes and proclaims that those not living within the
02:32:48: Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before the end of life, the same have been added to the flock and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the church of benefit for salvation and do fastings, almsgivings and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ can be saved unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the
02:33:21: Catholic Church, Denzinger 714. The only authority that the New Testament gives to the church is found within her officers within the church itself.
02:33:32: We have seen this evening that there are two offices and priest is not one of them. The only other comment
02:33:37: I would make is in regards to the assertion, well, yes, you can be saved without the Catholic priesthood and yet earlier
02:33:43: Father Pacwa did make the assertion that in light of John chapter six, if you do not eat of his body and drink of his blood, you have no life within yourself.
02:33:54: If the only people who can work the miracle of transubstantiation, if that's what the text is referring to, which obviously
02:33:59: I don't believe that it is, but if that is what the text is referring to, then outside of the Roman Catholic priesthood, you could not have life in yourself without that sacramental ability.
02:34:09: And so I don't see the modern inclusivism of the Roman Catholic system and its historical exclusivism fitting together very well, even in this particular concept.
02:34:21: Father Pacwa, the question is, and this is for both, we'll begin with you. Paul said in 1
02:34:27: Timothy 2 .5 that there was only one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
02:34:32: Does the Catholic priest function as a mediator? If so, is this contradictory to 1
02:34:37: Timothy 2 .5? No, I do not believe that it's, yes, there is one mediator, we accept that it is
02:34:45: Jesus Christ, but I share in that ministry of mediation insofar as I've been joined to Christ, just as the church is his body, and that Christians, in that sense, mediate
02:34:59: Christ. And each Christian has to be, in one sense, an alter Christus, another
02:35:05: Christ, so that it's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me, a text that's also key for my own faith in Galatians 2.
02:35:16: And Dr. White and I share that. But I only mediate as a priest because of union with Christ and obedience to Christ and doing what
02:35:27: Christ asks me to do, otherwise my mediation would be nothing. So I see my mediation as a sacrament, a sign of the one mediator,
02:35:34: Jesus Christ. Dr. White, your response. The mediation that is spoken of in 1 Timothy 2 .5
02:35:40: -6 is sacrificial mediation, and the mediator, the reason there is only heist, one mediator, just as there is heist, one
02:35:48: God, that is unique, there's only one unique God, there's only one unique mediator, is because the fact that he and he alone was able to give himself as the antelutron, the ransom in behalf of his people.
02:36:01: His action of mediation cannot be joined into by anyone else, the simple fact of its uniqueness and the uniqueness of the person who engages in it.
02:36:11: Dr. White, question for you. In order for a prophet to be considered a true prophet, his prophecy would have to be fulfilled.
02:36:20: How, other than the mass and the institution of a ministerial priesthood, would the perpetual sacrifice referred to in Malachi 1 .11
02:36:29: be fulfilled? Malachi 1 .11, for from rising of the sun even to its setting my name is great among the nations, and everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name and a pure offering.
02:36:41: Well, that is obviously fulfilled in a much greater way in the biblical New Testament teaching concerning the priesthood of all believers.
02:36:49: That is, when we live our lives as that sacrifice in service to Christ, then wherever Christ's people are, then that sacrifice is being offered.
02:37:00: I think it is a restriction of this passage and its fulfillment to limit it to a mediatorial sacramental priesthood when they are undergoing a particular type of rite.
02:37:13: Instead, it is fulfilled in its fullness when we as believers live out the life of Jesus Christ within us.
02:37:20: Father Pacwa, your response? I was trying to read this. Sorry, I missed some of what he was saying because I was trying to pay attention to this.
02:37:31: So I'm sorry, I don't have a response. Father Pacwa, since you don't have a response to that, then there's a question for you.
02:37:39: Where does it say to call, in the New Testament, where does it call to say any one father in the
02:37:45: Bible but Jesus only? Oh, that's a good one, thanks. You have in Matthew 23 that it says, call no man father, right?
02:37:57: And this is in the context of a criticism of Pharisees, right, however, in 1
02:38:04: Corinthians chapter four, verse 16, Paul says, you have 10 ,000 pedagogues but only one father, it is
02:38:14: I who begot you by my preaching of the gospel. So that Paul insists on a fatherly relationship with his community, does he not?
02:38:27: And then in 1 John chapter two, John calls a couple groups of Christian men fathers so that we see that going on.
02:38:40: Then a number of times in the book of Acts, Stephen and then later on,
02:38:47: Paul, address the Sanhedrin as fathers and brothers.
02:38:54: So actually we have a number of places in the New Testament where various characters call other people, both inside and outside the church, fathers and in a dissertation that was done at Vanderbilt soon after I had gone, the issue of calling father that Jesus addresses in relationship to the
02:39:16: Pharisees is that different schools of Pharisees were called the houses, so the house of Hillel, the house of Shammai, the two most famous, house of Gamaliel, and that these rabbis were called fathers because they'd started their own sects of competing groups of rabbis.
02:39:40: And it's calling yourself the father of a rabbinic -like sect and stabbing divisions away from the church
02:39:47: Christ founded that seems to be at issue. Dr. White? I'm very thankful for this opportunity because as Father Paquin knows,
02:39:57: I believe it was in 1997 when we debated the first time here, you made it a part of the condition of being here that the term father be used.
02:40:07: And I would like to take this opportunity of at least explaining why I am uncomfortable with the term, though I have chosen to use it simply so that these debates would take place.
02:40:17: In describing the priestly office, I think it was Gibbons who wrote, to sum up in a few brief sentences the titles of a
02:40:25: Catholic priest. He is a king, reigning not over unwilling subjects but over the hearts and affections of his people. He is a shepherd because he leads his flock in the delicious pastures of the sacraments and shelters them from the wolves that lie in wait for their souls.
02:40:37: He is a father, why? Because he breaks the bread of life to his spiritual children who he has begotten in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
02:40:45: My objection to the utilization of the term is because the meaning that is attached to it, the meaning that is attached to it is not the meaning of some of the passages that were just looked at.
02:40:56: If a person begot me through the gospel unto faith in Christ Jesus, then
02:41:01: I would not have a problem using that term and saying you are my father in the faith. You begot me in the faith in that way.
02:41:07: But to turn that into a title and then make it be used by people who
02:41:13: A, were not begotten by you in the first place even if they are a part of your spiritual communion.
02:41:18: But I hope people understand, when you're coming from my perspective and you do not believe that Rome possesses the gospel in the first place, it is very,
02:41:27: I think you need to understand how very difficult it is to say, you must use a term of me, the term means that I am your father through the gospel in Christ Jesus.
02:41:38: And yet I do not believe that that is the case at all. I don't ask someone to call me Reverend for that very reason because you may not revere what
02:41:46: I revere. I think that is the real issue that needs to be brought to the fore here is the meaning of the term as it is applied to the
02:41:54: Roman Catholic priesthood. And on that paternal note, we need to end the debate this evening.
02:42:00: It's 11 o 'clock. Our thanks, our thanks to you, our thanks to Chris Arnzen for organizing this and once again, a very special thanks to Father Mitchell Pacwa and Dr.