Nadir Ahmed Debate

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white Well, let's get started getting some of the channel rats doing some earn some of their pay

I forgot to find out before we got on the air today. Are we on the air because radio is on the air

We're on the web But it might help if you turned it on because I didn't hear a word you just said

El muto, very good. You're we are the air. You're a professional broadcast engineer. I see

Just because we moved down here got rid of the bailing wire the duct tape doesn't mean things change No, no.

No, I was just watching rich talking into a dead microphone. Those are funny. I should just left to go Okay channel rats find out when

Steve Gregg's radio program is because starting Thursday Thursday Friday Monday Tuesday and Wednesday Is the big

Calvinism debate? And why haven't I said anything about it? Cuz I haven't been thinking about it

That's why as I will tell explain to you in a moment I've just gotten like super busy all of a sudden and I I'm gonna be doing this off the top of ye old head.

And as we all know, there's nothing up there. Anyways, so it's I'm gonna be flying by the proverbial seat of the pants and I have my hair is gonna be on fire.

You're gonna be busy. Yeah, but it's only an hour a day But somebody tell me okay, it says two to three

Pacific Chris says it's two to three Pacific time bad timing for you Well, not really

Well, I thought it was in the morning All right. Well if Steve Gregg's that is bad timing for me.

Yeah, it's gonna be rough but We need to simulcast it and he's on a radio station So there's way not much he doesn't get to move things around like we can move anything we want to move and then laugh at all the people who can't figure out how to find us again, but We are going to be simulcasting

I haven't heard back from him yet as to whether he has

News at the top of the hour whether he has hard breaks I've asked a couple times and we need to find that out so that we know how to cover those things

That's what we'll be figuring out between now and Thursday. Evidently I don't know what the format is gonna be because we really haven't figured that out yet We keep talking about you know, do we do five minutes each?

Do we have opening statement? We don't know so I have a feeling it's gonna be pretty Free flowing

I would assume we'll find out one way or the other But we're doing Thursday and Friday and then

Monday Tuesday and Wednesday of next week's total of five hours worth of Exchange. I don't again

Assuming we start the top of the hour and go to the top there. I don't know if that's the case yet I can't tell you We will sort of figure this out as we are going along but that starts on Thursday and What's this

Uh Much yeah, yeah, yeah the narrow path April 3rd 4th 7th 8th and 9th.

Yeah. Okay. There's there's that I don't know if how we're gonna handle if we're gonna do anything with audience calls

We haven't really discussed that I maybe the last day or something. I don't know but you know,

I Think most folks are probably just rather here. He and I going back and forth on things, but that's what's gonna start on Thursday Mr.

Gregg has informed me that some of his views have changed since the Last summer you may recall pretty much last

May as I recall I was listening to his mp3s on Calvinism and responded to them and After I did all that he basically informed me that well that was those were really old and I've changed some my views and I'm like Well, okay

Unfortunately evidently those views have not been put in mp3 format or I would have listened to them He referred me to I believe around 200 pages of web forum posts

That's I obviously have not had any time to bother to read I have asked some folks a channel to look through Some of that material and tell me what they think is most important.

And so But what I'm telling you is I haven't I just have not had the time to be making any preparations with this at all and I apologize for that on the one hand, but on the other hand, it's not because I've just been sitting around twiddling my thumbs

Instead what I've been doing as you all know over the past number of weeks. Well, maybe you don't know Maybe you don't read the blog.

All you do is listen to the vying line I suppose there are a few people who I do that Probably not very many though. I was back east.

I was in Virginia. I was on Long Island and in New Jersey got back this weekend and Did a debate with another

Ahmed and if you could call it a debate I'm not sure that there are many people who would call that a debate We might play some sections from it today.

I don't know. I'm not sure how much worth there is to it we're just going to take the tapes and Video put put them in YouTube format and put them on YouTube and if somebody wants to watch them great fine wonderful Probably at least make mp3s out of make those available if someone wants to grab them that way but we're gonna throw it up on YouTube and I just would not feel proper asking anyone to even

Part with a small amount of money for the the DVDs For something like that because it just on any level at any point

Mr. Ahmed would have been disqualified in any meaningful judged debate and The Muslims were embarrassed obviously my hope is that Any last support that the man had will disappear

But I I can guarantee you If he was the last if there wasn't a single Muslim who support him he'd keep going because he truly truly does not believe

That he can ever lose a debate. He wins everything he humiliates everyone he debates he is undefeatable in his own mind and Once someone is that far disconnected from reality, then there's really not much you can do about it.

They're going to Believe that you know, they're gonna believe what they believe and that's that's the situation with another argument.

So But what happened was I thought I'd have a little time when I got back to start doing a little preparation for the

Steve Gregg thing But while driving up to from Virginia up to Long Island my phone rings and David would one of the two gentlemen that were involved with the debates over the weekend

David would and Nabil Qureshi were the Christian debaters Calls me up and says hey

A situation has developed in regards to a debate in California. The debates already scheduled

And Wondering if you can participate in a debate with Sheikh Jabal Jabal says

I'm looking at the last name Jalal's the easy part I'll be all Rube Is a very difficult name to say for any

English speaker. I'll be you all Rube I dare you to say it three times fast.

It's not possible to do for an English speaker I see rich and they're trying to do it and so far.

He's said something about rubber baby buggy bumpers But Sheikh Jalal a we're gonna call him

Jalal a I think that's the easiest Anyways He is a

Salafi scholar. He has translated some books from Arabic into English. He's actually written some books

And I know that the debate was already scheduled with two topics is

Muhammad a prophet and Does the Bible teach that Jesus is God and The David Wood is going to be doing the first debate is

Muhammad a prophet and this will be on Saturday April 12th I'll be doing the second debate does the

Bible teach that Jesus is God now Here's another thing for the channel rats to discover for me

I'm wondering because I'm looking at the location here. This is in Fullerton, California. We have debated in Fullerton, California And I was just looking at the address 2505

Yorba Linda Boulevard That sounds familiar to me. Is this the same place where I've debated

Tim Staples twice? I'd like to find out what is 2505

Yorba Linda Boulevard in Fullerton, California Is what was the place called where I debated

Tim Staples? I debated him in 96 and 2000 So it's been eight years as I've been there, but there was it was some sort of an auditorium and I forgot what it was called

But it's it's a good place for debates. There's no question about that That's where you had the

Eucharist to take place. So it'd be sort of ironic in the same place where I've debated Roman Catholics on solo scriptura and papal infallibility to debate the subject of Is Jesus God against a

Muslim that would be very very interesting. Okay. I am seeing Lane saying Eastside Christian Church auditorium

Okay, and there is a link thank you very much Lane wins the fastest channel rat to Google award today and So it looks like it's

Eastside Christian Church auditorium is where this will be held Please note that there is a cost.

I imagine the auditorium is being rented Looks like it's right next to Cal State Fullerton right next to Cal State. Well, that would make sense because on the blog we have $8 for one debate $12 for two and students are free with ID So it must be someplace close to where students would have an

ID and need to get in free So we are not the ones doing this debate.

This is being sponsored by others Please note those plumber auditorium was what the other place was.

That's right plumber auditorium Yeah, I'll go came up with that one. But of course I'll go remembers all things. So that's just sort of how it is

Doors will open at 1 p .m. And 5 p .m. All attendees must present ID Security will be present.

Please leave all phones large bags and Cameras in your car.

Thank you in other words there will be security at the doors and so just keep that in mind and security will be present during the entirety of The debate

So that's what's going to what's going to be happening. So that is on Saturday April 12th.

My debate is at 530 David Woods debate is at 130 Both debating the same gentleman.

That's a lot in one day, but that's what he's agreed to do So that was not on my on my

Radar, okay This came up very very quickly and that's one of the reasons I just don't have time to be doing any type of special anything between now and Thursday and Friday and so on so forth and in fact

As soon as each one of those programs is over I will be going right back to I believe my opening statement and this one's 35 minutes long 30 minutes in the similar debate with Hamza Abdul Malik.

So I've got five extra minutes, but I've been obtaining My opponent's written materials and video materials

And so obviously what I want to do just as I did with Hamza Abdul Malik in 1999 is I I made my opening presentation specifically in light of his own presentation

I Preempted most of his presentation by addressing the issues before he ever got to them

Because I had taken the time to sit down watch previous debate He had done write down all the objections that he had what text to use then work that into my opening statement

I'll do the same thing here. In fact, they have next to me from prophet his book prophet of mercy a discussion of re -establishing monotheism where my opponent addresses tries to address

John 1 1 and The issue of the Trinity and so on so forth and so we may even find some time to go through that today well, we'll find out but That is what's coming up on 12 now then beyond that remember

I thought April was gonna be a month where I get some writing done You know get back to regular

Arabic study and stuff like that. No Because as soon as I arrive on Long Island Dr.

David Johnson who runs the Arizona campus of the Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary where I am teaching a class on Islam right now drops me an email and California State University Had contacted

Golden Gate which is right across the bay up there in the San Francisco area looking for someone to debate a

California State University professor on The 22nd of April a brief debate.

Basically. I have a feeling it may be outside It's at noon. It'll probably be out on the you know where the students gather there at California State University East Bay and The Subject is gay marriage and So, dr.

Johnson knowing that I've written a book in the subject on the subject of homosexuality Anyways, and have debated

John Shelby Spong and Barry Lynn on that particular topic Forwarded to me and I'm like well

It's only ten days after the debate with with the shake But You know, it's a opportunity to once again speak

God's truth Couldn't get much of a wider spectrum of stuff in ten days

In California in Southern California debating a Muslim Sheikh defending the deity of Christ and ten days later,

Northern, California, San Francisco area Opposing the concept of gay marriage.

Yeehaw I'm hoping the clutch will survive the the shift that we that we make in those ten days

But that's what I'll be doing. So I'll be going up to a Golden Gate and Making a little trip out of it there

So that's also I believe a Tuesday as I recall So of course the dividing line that day will be preempted unless somehow

I can you know Set up my laptop to be recording the debate and live streaming it or something back to the studio or something

I don't know that that kind of stuff is not impossible to do any longer and Who knows since it's got a camera in it

It would be a possibility if I get somebody to babysit it. You could actually do something like that. But anyway, so there is

There is what's upcoming In in April and that's just stuff that I had already had one dozen trips

Between January of 08 and January of 09 this these these two weren't included in that and so we just You know when opportunities present themselves you you do what you possibly can the second debate is

I'll just let you know right now There's there's no there's no funding for this.

So that second band gay marriage. We're we're footing the bill we're we're having to grab the airline ticket, which of course this time only three weeks out is not the best time to be doing things like that and Hotel rental car.

I do like to eat once in a while. I do debate better having eaten then I don't and So those are our issues that we just let folks know and Invite your participation in taking advantage of these types of opportunities

So that is what is coming up. Now. Let me I Suppose I should make some commentary

If you've been watching the YouTube videos I've been putting up you saw my immediate responses to some of what

I What I watched Sammy's Atari's Presentation against the deity of Christ seems to be borrowing very heavily from the same type of material that I have here in Jalal Abdelroob's materials

They the only way I can describe it the same way described Hams Abdul Malik's materials and that is bad

Jehovah's Witness argumentation for example one of the One of the statements,

I'm just looking page 18 here According to the Bible collection suite the Greek copy of the

New Testament uses Theos in both instances Where God is mentioned in John 1 1 however the first instance of Theos is preceded by ha which makes the reference in it to the

God, but the second instance is not preceded by ha which makes the second Theos merely a God now

I looked at the Bible collection suite. It's a bunch of public domain Old commentaries that you can get for $9 .99

a CD from Amazon if you want It's um, but that's not the point

It is true that the first instance of Theos is preceded actually it's not even that's not even correct the first instance of Theos is taun theon in the accusative and It's just very obvious that none of these folks whether it's the

Sheikh or Sammy's Atari or Shadid Lewis None of them

Know anything about Greek. They know nothing about Greek articles They know nothing about how to translate them And of course,

I'm gonna have to criticize the Sheikh because this man translates Arabic into English So he he knows he has to have sufficient linguistic capacity to recognize that Arabic has one concept of the article which is closely related to the

Hebrew concept of the article, but neither one of those and Certainly not the English article has almost any relationship to the complexity of the

Greek article and that if the Article ha appeared before Theos and John 1 1 C that is this would be teaching a heresy

It would be making the logos and Theos equal to one another It would be saying that all the logos is all of God and vice versa

Which would of course make it contradictory to John 1 1 B. So it's it's a slaughtering of the

Greek language They don't understand that they could not use these types of rules to translate any other phrase in or any other verse in the

New Testament because they just don't know what they're talking about but they will make these kinds of assertions and they will make them forthrightly and with a smile on their face and Christians sadly do not tend to know how to respond to those particular things

Just as an example of this Let me see if I can find the specific one here

Let's see how large is that one that's not it and that's not it

I'm looking for Let's get off the thumbnails to the details here. It's 300 and there it is

Let's let's listen to what Sammy's Atari said on this very issue

This is from a video But it's amazing the sound quality that my little

Camera, and then we're talking about a little credit card sized Casio cameras the super thin ones and it's not even the newest one

It's now about two years old Sound quality is incredible. It truly is but here's

Here's the section where he presents his stuff on on John 1 -1 you'll see that it very very closely parallels what

I Just just read let's see how this ends up sounding Now let me stop just for a minute did you catch that Christian Unitarians Muslims seem to believe that they have the right to redefine the

Christian faith now We don't have the right to redefine the Islamic faith I would like to ask

Sammy it's a toddy. Would you accept a person as a Muslim? Who rejects the prophet hood of Muhammad?

and I would Imagine I you know I don't know but I would imagine the majority of Muslims Would not accept someone as a

Muslim who rejects the prophet hood of Muhammad so I do not accept as a

Christian someone who rejects the deity of Christ and At least going back to at least the

Council of Nicaea that has been Christian Orthodoxy And so I wonder why they get the right to reject those things and refer to Christian Unitarians or to Christian gnostics or blah blah blah blah blah the term

Christian loses all meaning when it no longer defines anything And I do find that to be a rather interesting double standard that point

Sammy's Atari is completely dependent upon these quote -unquote

Christian cults For his information, and he accepts what they have to say without question if I were to quote

Islamic cults, I'm sure he would be quite offended by that, but that again is the standard double standard of Islamic apologists

That's So there you have it the word was a

God the the Jehovah's Witnesses live again And here we have a man who admits

He cannot read the language standing in front of the audience and saying this is the accurate translation now obviously

You know if I were to stand in front of an Islamic audiences And this is what I said that evening when

I recorded the video that I posted on the blog if I listened to Christians Massacring the

Arabic language the way that the Muslims massacred the Greek language that day I would have felt humiliated as a

Christian But again, it's mainly because of who I debate for I debate for people who love truth

I do it for people who want to know the truth I'm not debating just to try to make one side feel good and the other side feel bad

That's that's not why I do debates And so it just makes me wonder why why does

Sami Zatari or Shadid Lewis? Why do they debate? What is their purpose in debating if if not to seek to cause me?

to consider the truth claims of Islam and if the truth claims of Islam are dependent upon this kind of Really bad argumentation.

I mean an audience member asked a question Later on in the evening and asked

Sammy if if what you said is true that They asked without the article of John 1 1 should be translated a

God which is not true over 20 % of the appearances of the oz in its various inflected forms in the

New Testament are Anarthurus that is they do not have an article No one no

Bible anywhere translated by anybody renders all of those as a

God I Mean that just that's you have to be completely ignorant of the language to come up with that kind of argumentation it just doesn't work you fail first semester

Greek if you think this way and So the person asks the question well just a little bit later in John 1 6

You have the word God there was a man sent from God whose name was John God does not have the article

Now to the Greek reader the reason it doesn't have the articles obvious is preceded by para and those prepositions

Generally replace the article as far as their function the Greek New Testament, but Sammy doesn't know that and So if he's just gonna stay out there and say

Wilson's don't have the article now There's a reason it doesn't have the articles because the predicate Nominative he put the article in front of it and that makes the subject and since it's a pre verbal that that'd be making this

An equative clause, but he doesn't know any of that and so he just throws this out there And so if he's gonna use that rule then

John 1 6 would have to be there as a man sent from a God if he's gonna be consistent and He ran

From that question as I mean there was absolutely no meaningful response at all nor can there be in in these types of Situations So now

Now just again Moffat, you know again The Jehovah's Witnesses try to borrow Moffat because he used a weaker translation divine

Without even knowing what he was attempting to deal with and that is that an anarthorist pre verbal predicate nominative

Is describing the nature of someone and divine for him is not something that a

Muslim could possibly accept Etc. Etc. This is again

An illustration for me that these folks just don't do their homework.

They're not doing their homework They just have a position that they want to defend they give knee -jerk reactions these things

They're not actually engaging the subject in the way that Christian scholars and Christian apologists try to engage seriously the subjects endemic within Islam there just isn't a compatible comparison between The two the two at all.

So he then went on he went after John 8 58 didn't understand to go I me didn't recognize and the bill did it did a fine job in Countering these things and in presenting the truth on these things but it was just amazing to hear the kind of Argumentation that was being presented within that particular context.

So with that said We have Our first phone caller that I would normally wait for a little while But yes we could probably skip the break because he's probably gonna take up all the time that the break would you think you think

I'm not Gonna get a we're in edgewise from now on Once I hit on air Once I hit on air,

I should just go ahead and get a drink. Is that the idea take a break? Okay and that's because We have one of the four horsemen of the

Islamic apocalypse I was told I was told after the debates that one of the

Muslims that identified of Four people as the four horsemen of the

Islamic apocalypse or something along those lines the four debaters and Against Islam today and and that was

David Wood and Nabil Qureshi Sam Shamoon who is now on the air with me and me So Sam, which one are you?

You've got to be which which of the four horses are you? It's got to be the big horse. I can be all for it. I Don't remember what the colors were but I'm Yeah You and I would be the big big ones because I think you and I both got

David and Nabil beat as far as that Goes. Yeah Yeah, I'm sorry to even interrupt you you you do a better job than I can imagine doing but I just wanted to Give you an analogy that you can use because you're using some great analogies to show how inconsistent their argumentation is

When you said they quote Christian Unitarians, it's like you Quoting a Muslim who says

Mohammed isn't a prophet, right? Well, I mean Sammy may chime in and say well that assumes that the

Bible teaches as God and that's the whole debate what I'd like to use against them is That the

Quran says that although Muhammad is the last prophet. It does not say he's the last messenger in chapter 33 verse 40 says

Mohammed is not the father of any of you men, but the messenger of God and the seal of prophets and Because of the wording of the text this has let some

Muslims such as the followers of Rashad Khalifa To say that although he's the last prophet.

He's not the last messenger and other messengers will come after him Because in chapter 22 verse 52 the

Quran The Quran clearly distinguishes between a messenger and a prophet So you can use that logic against them saying, okay

If you're going to follow that line of argumentation Then I can quote these Quran only Muslims who argue that the

Quran nowhere says Mohammed is the last messenger He's the last prophet but not the last messenger. Therefore other messengers will come after him

Yeah, it's interesting what I observed at the debates Was that is after the second not that the first morning debate,

I believe it was It was the one where Shadid Lewis was was debating David Wood.

I I went up to him after the debate and I challenged him on the Soma issue.

You've probably seen the video subject and He did not even want to talk to me

The first thing he did was look right into the audience and find Hamza Abdul Malik Because they were borrowing some of his arguments

I mean if you listen to Malik you can tell they're borrowing some of his his material and So he's trying to get him to come up there to to answer my challenges on the

Greek. The thing is They must know by now that Hamza Abdul Malik is a

Quran only person Yeah, and that he said to me there at the debates. He considers the Shahada to be shirk

So from their perspectives doesn't that make him a heretic? Yep So, why are they dependent on a heretic to try to defend their

Greek claims Why would they I mean that'd be like me calling up a Jehovah's Witness to answer a

Muslim I mean it just it does not make any sense to me whatsoever It's shocking. Yeah If you can while keeping your blood pressure nice and low and calm

Give us a little description of What I'm going to be up against on on the 12th in Southern, California Okay.

Well the chef that you're going to be debating Jalal Abu Alrub He is a older version of Nadir pretty much

He's going to be well again that depends I'm assuming that if he's going to try to influence

Christians to consider Islam He may conduct himself in a very respectful way But you can read from his emails

His letters even when he responds to Christians who he doesn't view as being hostile to Islam quote -unquote, right?

you can see that he's very very nasty in his approach so Depends on Jalal's intention on that night if he's trying to influence

Christians He may come on his best behavior But he's an older version of the deer and can be very nasty and can be very personal

So expect that so it's hard. It's hard to say. What's what to expect? Well, obviously

However, there's got to be a difference between the two in the fact that this man can at least

Translate Arabic. He has to have some Linguistic capacities that to be able to do that so I would

I would assume I would be able to make reference to those and try to hold him to some level of Of a standard there that I couldn't do with none with mother because he just doesn't

Doesn't seem to understand any of the issues you try to raise to him. Yep Well with Jalal obviously his knowledge of Islam is vastly vastly superior to Nadir Jalal is considered a scholar and knows

Islam very well But with that said if you read some of his argumentation even in defense of Islam Even though he has this vast knowledge of Arabic He does a lot of Well again,

I'm I don't want to judge his heart But let's say distortion whether it's unintentional because he's reading these

Islamic sources with a Salafi lens, right? Oh, yeah, and so because of that that affects his understanding of the chronic passages, which would for example

I just wrote an article. He was trying to mock the doctrine of original sin and He mocked me by writing an article called original chin

Just you know making fun of what we believe in making fun of me because he really loves me Well, in fact,

I see on page 24 of his book good news about original sin. Yeah Calling a

Christian innovation another Christian innovation added more bleak news to the invented notion of original sin

Yeah, what's amazing about that is that the Quran itself and the so -called authentic narrations and I've documented this

Muhammad actually believed and this is documented. So I'm not just saying this I can quote silent Bukhari So he

Muslim these so -called authentic narrations attributed to Muhammad and the Quran itself Muhammad believed that Adam's sin affected us

So that because of him we were thrown out of paradise because don't forget According to Islamic theology paradise was in heaven

So that when Adam was created Adam was living in heaven and when he sinned he plunged himself and his descendants after him

Outside of paradise, so now we live on earth because of it And if I can just mention one narrative real quickly according to Muhammad, this is both in Bukhari Muslim Muhammad said that Adam got the upper hand in a debate with Moses Because Moses went up to him and said aren't you

Adam our father and didn't you expel us from paradise? The Muhammad said that Moses supposedly told

Adam that because of you we were thrown out of paradise And that Adam respondent says are you not Moses the one whom

Allah spoke directly Do you blame me for something that Allah decreed determined for me 40 years before my creation?

Hmm. So according to these so -called authentic narrations Muhammad realized that Adam's sin affected us negatively

And no matter how many times you quote these sources, they still just turn a deaf ear to it Don't want to admit. Yeah, this is what

Muhammad believed They just want to attack Christianity Like you said for the sake of attacking it not because they're seeking truth.

Yeah Oh, yeah, I do expect that and and I think what happened with the debate with Nader was

You know, obviously as soon as I saw the way he was going to be approaching things He takes seven minutes out of his opening 20

And then later is well, I just did that because I knew this would be so difficult for you and I I It's pretty hard not to laugh a number of times, but I obviously very early on Made the determination that the best thing

I can do here aside from hoping that finally the Muslims themselves will say this man

Would you please you know, go do you know go help clean the mosque go do this?

I think but don't don't present don't pretend to present yourself as if you are

Representational of us The other thing to try to do was to just contrast how a person can while being treated like this by by another and you

Know what? I don't even know that he knows. I don't know how much of a connection He has to reality itself because he treats he treats the audience.

He treats Eric even treated I even mentioned this to Sammy's the toddy. I don't know if you if you saw this, but He jumped up to ask audience questions in the other debates and When Sammy's a toddy had just debated

David Wood on on Muhammad he gets that he's the first one up you know, it's like the jack of jack -in -the -box pointing, you know up to the up to the microphone and He he's like, you know,

I want to say you've done a really good job You're and you're an up -and -comer, you know all that, you know these flowery words, but then he threw him under the bus

Because basically turns David would why are you debating this kid instead of me the greatest, you know

He honestly believes someone during that one of the breaks asked him who could you recommend?

Other than these men to be debating and the only person nother Achmed could recommend was not

Oh Megalomaniac, it's incredible.

I mean he I mean, it's just absolutely incredible. So But he was willing to throw these guys under the bus and when when

I tried to Initially contact should be Lewis after the first night debate with he and on the bill, which

I thought was very illuminating I thought was more illuminating the second day because they were talking about the reasons

Nabil's reasons for becoming a Christian and Shadid's reasons for becoming a Muslim I tried to talk to Shadid and that neither literally physically got between me and Shadid To just almost like jumping up and down Why would you make me

James? You're a coward James, but I'm and and even Shadid's like chill out man, you know

It was just incredible. It was just unbelievable. So I thank God for you, dr White and I pray the

Lord will use you more and more in exposing Islam because I really don't believe there's anyone more qualified to Do so so keep up the great work.

Well, thank you for your call Sam. All right. God bless it was That's truly incredible,

I guess since I've mentioned it I might as well Let's just play a section of it here.

Anyways, go back to the Thumbnails here that I have one of the audience members was kind enough to use my camera to record some stuff and let me just just give you a brief taste of What would happen is

I would ask neither Ahmed a question and That meant he had two minutes now to respond and he would just take that two minutes and just Wander all over the landscape what

I had I could have said do you prefer? Peanut butter or Chocolate, you know, could you engage the

Reese's debate? and He would have wandered all over the landscape talking about whatever, you know

I mean literally if I wanted to be funny Especially funny in this debate.

There is there was one and have my computer. That's right I can't get this computer to play channel sounds it really

I haven't fixed that yet. I'm gonna find this somewhere But I have a sound file and I'm gonna look for it here real quick And I Wanted to say this so badly during the middle of debate and I and I just couldn't bring myself to do it

I'm looking real Yes I'm hoping this is it who knows what

I'm about to play but I'm hoping that this is What I wanted to say to neither

Ahmed during the debate What color is the sky in your world? What color is the sky in your world?

that's Frazier Crane and He's talking to somebody who is obviously

Lives in his own world and he asked him. Tell me what color is the sky in your world?

that's what I wanted to look at him and say because it clearly isn't the same color as in our world because he doesn't live in our world and words don't have the same meanings and and rationality isn't the same thing and it's just Huh, it's it's pretty pretty pretty wild a

Windows Media Update is available. Do you want to update now? No go away All right, so here's an example here's here's here's another argument

People died for their faith You're quoting the Bible again. So once again, the

Bible is true because the Bible said so and everyone died for their faith and basically The Bible teaches

Jesus died for you also died for you the Apostles died for you. Everybody died for their faith

I mean, I'm sitting here and I don't want to look over at him I'm I'm just I'm trying to and but I want to look at him going what are you babbling about?

I mean the Apostles died for you. Where does this stuff come from?

Everyone's died. I asked you again where you don't have to prove Paul is a true prophet.

Just give me a little bit Well again as I just point out in my response

The standards that are being I'm doing fine. Thank you. The standards that are being applied here are

Irrational in a Christian Islamic debate I have given you the consistency of the fact that the

Apostle Paul had interaction with the disciples of Jesus If the

Apostle Paul was not what he claimed to be Then we do have evidence that the

Apostles resisted those who made false claims There's a number of references in the historical works now

If I'm precluded from quoting the New Testament If I'm precluded from making historical reference the context of the

New Testament, then why are we here this evening? You don't know anything about Paul if you can't quote the

New Testament if you can't quote Matthew you can't quote Luke you can't quote Peter you can't quote any of these people then we're not having a meaningful or rational discussion

But when you allow that material into the discussion, which is much closer

To being contemporary than anything you have in the hadith sources for things that you accept on faith in regards to Muhammad then it becomes very clear that the

Apostle Paul is accepted by the original disciples as An apostle not just as one who is a

Christian or a believer But he is accepted as an apostle who has authority to teach and preach regarding the death burial resurrection

Jesus Christ he is given that position of apostleship in the churches including the same churches where those original apostles themselves minister

And so I only ask for consistency in what standards you're going to utilize in regards to what is and what is not

Evidence and if you simply dismiss anything that's contemporaneous with Paul Then you're asking for evidence and then banning anything contemporary with him as an answer

And so I think this one continued that on let me let me see if if it did well, yeah

In trying to follow the rules of debate where you ask a question that I give is as clear an answer as I can

We do not have any first century and none of these books another has mentioned have a first century

Providence that is they do not come from the time of the Apostles They do not come from the first century

Jewish context. They come from very different types of contexts, especially You know name one

Any of these show clear evidences of coming from the second century not the first century and they do not come from the time period where the

Quran itself makes reference to the disciples and Says that a book was sent down that Muslims are to believe

Where is that book evidently God let it be completely destroyed. It's gone. No evidence of it left anywhere

I don't know why anybody would believe that But again, if we use meaningful standards, then we look at the historical situation

We see that historically the Apostle Paul is accepted by the other Apostles that he labors side -by -side

That they are preaching the same gospel if you will compare for example The sermons of Peter recorded in Luke with those of Paul recorded in Luke.

Guess what? They're using the same Old Testament passages. They see the same fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy

They were claiming the same death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now was Peter then somehow

Corrupted was was Peter not one of the Apostles of Jesus that the Quran says would be victorious until the day of judgment

And that becomes the question and so once again, I just have to turn back to Mr.

Achmed and say what standard do you want to use that you'll be consistent in using for yourself?

If we read the New Testament the standard becomes very clear that Paul was consistent in claiming apostleship

Now you'll notice that my this was supposed to be Can we trust the

New Testament? It became was Paul a prophet I tried to point out proper term of the

Apostle, but anyway Which you know in in nother thinking is the same thing

Obviously he chose not to go after the text of the

New Testament and I think that he did so because he realized that there was No way he could stand up to cross -examination the subject.

He did say in an email. He was going to use the acid test He never did. I had a PowerPoint presentation ready for his

Acid test and I'm still going to use that material that I developed And the study that I did and I'm gonna put up a

YouTube video Lord willing this week even Refuting another Achmed's acid test in regards to surah 48 29

But he did not he did not utilize that so far. It's pretty much been my responses I think here is a section that gives you a little bit more of a taste of his diatribes

Gotta quit saying that I all I'm asking you just for a little bit of evidence just a little bit of evidence

I'm not holding any kind of double standards. We talked about Valentina's and how they came later

Look attacking the other Christians and the other churches that doesn't prove Paul Okay, that this man claimed to be that this man is really a prophet

This is the problem the problem which we find in world religions is exactly this we get people coming up Claiming to be prophets.

Hey, you know God I saw God in a vision and and here's the book which he wants you all to follow This is a fundamental problem, which you see in so many religions

Wouldn't that be exactly the problem with Mohammed? Okay Now you know, so basically there's no evidence of Paul or else you would have heard it tonight

Where's your evidence that the church fathers were the disciples? I'm sorry with the students of the disciples.

Where's the evidence for that? So when I make those kind of claims, I'll be happy to back them up I no one here this evening has heard me say that the early church fathers because there are disciples of Disciples themselves that somehow gives them a special authority

I think you can come up with some very interesting things and looking at Ignatius and looking at clinic All those things are very important and we could go into them

But to be honest with you, I think they would simply be rejected this evening out of hand without any explain explanation as to why

They are being rejected out of hand completely And of course this entire if it even is a question is based upon the assertion that I've given no evidence

Yeah, I I had to point out that even though he was given a minute to ask a question He would even take the minute to make all sorts of statements and then just sort of stop as if okay now answer a question

You know, it's like Paul Repeating a statement many times is not the same as actually demonstrating the statement and if I might add just another

For those who are listening Christians and Muslims to the evidence that I have given I'd like to consider the scandal of the cross that the

Apostle Paul was so well Known for to even mention the cross in the ancient world was scandalous

There are some writers who wouldn't even mention because it was such a horrible way to die Think with me for just a moment the foolishness of the

Apostle Paul from a worldly perspective To try to start his own religion on the basis of a crucified

Messiah from Palestine That doesn't sell real well and well It doesn't go over well while in Corinth where the wisdom of the world is what people want to hear and to preach the resurrection

He was mocked for preaching that on Mars Hill and yet he continued to consistently do so why?

Because Jesus Christ had appeared to him on the roads Damascus and because he was willing to risk his life as was

Peter and John Mark and Luke and they all preached the same message That's the message that is contained consistently in the pages of New Testament And that's the message has come down to us and that's the message

It's found in the New Testament sitting outside the door of this of this room. I invite you to make sure to take a look at what it says so That was just part of my response.

I have like 20 minutes, but like I said Lord willing I will get those tapes converted into YouTube Videos and get them up on my

YouTube site and Now I'm not going to put them on the blog immediately They're going to be on my

YouTube site so you can go to that that's linked from the front page I will what I do is when

I put stuff on the YouTube Site then I schedule it to appear on the blog

But right now I'm the blog is full as far as videos go till mid -may

So these would probably extend almost into June, so that's when they'll appear on the blog So if you want to see them now

You need to go to my YouTube page or just wait until they appear eventually

Every few days on on the blog. I try to do at least three videos per week

I leave room to do more like when I was traveling I want to do immediate commentary on the debate things like that so I did

But as far as that kind of stuff goes I try to schedule it down The road some so that as I am traveling and things like that, and I I can't be producing stuff

The blog remains very active it remains a resource for people Who aren't immediately grabbing the videos like Lane as soon as they appear on my website, so that's how we will be doing that let's go ahead and take a

Call here I is this race all right race. How you doing? There you go

Okay, yes, sir. I had a question I'm wanting to do some some study on Islam for you know apologetic purposes, and I've got the debates that you have

Available, and I know there's a wide array of Christian people who have written about Islam And I didn't know kind of hate to just take that as a as a source because I know sometimes they can be

One -sided and and kind of create straw men, and I I just really appreciate your approach to Handling situation because you want to address both you want to address the issue

And you want to do it and a fair way and not just create a straw man and destroy it, so I didn't know

If you could lead me in a direction to get some Helpful resources in the study of Islam, okay?

Yeah kind of appointment that way well First of all you can you can pray that sometime after April I get a few weeks to string together to Write my first book on the subject which

I want to do and to get available But to find the time to do things like that has become exceptionally difficult these days, so that would be helpful down the road obviously

The vast majority of material that I am using these days is Islamic Once you get an idea of the importance for example of sahih al -bukhari sahih al -muslim

And you can either purchase those books in English translation from places like Islamic bookstore comm or if you're really smart

What you do is you get the electronic versions of it? Because those are always cheaper as far as looking up resources.

You can do searches and things like that There's a program called the Aleem 6 .0. I keep hearing that they're finally going to upgrade it

It's not the best written program It's put out by care or at least care is involved with it And so I I have a suspicion

I have not been able to document this fully yet, but I have a suspicion That some of the hadith collections are somewhat edited for example there is a

Statement in sahih al -muslim about Mohammed striking Aisha in the chest and it hurt her

I could not find that in the Aleem. I had to find it in the paper printed version so I can't vouch for it being 1 ,000 percent accurate, but it does contain a number of different of Translations of the

Quran it has the transliteration has the Arabic has the hadith most of the hadith anyways And is fully searchable and it'd be a whole lot cheaper than actually buying the sets, but you need to have resources

I mean when people ask me about Mormonism. I've recommended them certain books by Mormon leaders and Obviously needing to have the documentaries of the church

Book of Mormon, etc. Etc. Which is all available electronically now, too now as far as One of the books that I'm using in my in my class that I'm teaching right now is by elas el a

SS called Understanding the Quran I believe it's a small Black paperback,

I think it's from Zondervan. I could be wrong about that. I don't have it here in the studio right now But I found that not only extremely friendly but it's about much more than the

Quran you you gain a tremendous amount of insight into Islam as well and Elas is a

Presbyterian pastor. And so it's it's sound theologically as well And so that would be an excellent resource to get as well

But then as you're as you're reading for example Anything that I'd be, you know listening for example to the debates things like that Write down the resources that are being used the references bibliographies footnotes sections

For example in many of the articles you'll find at answering Islam org you'll find all sorts of references found there that gives you a what might be called a functional bibliography a bibliography of material that really is the stuff you're going to be using most often and Electronic versions those are great

But sometimes it's it's good to have the paper edition of it So if you see for example that you're referencing

Sahih al -Bukhari Over -and -over again, it's always good to have the paper edition of it so that you can you know back up Any any questions about the accuracy of scans and stuff like that?

So the majority of stuff that I have honestly I have only a very small number of Christian books on Islam the vast majority of my material is

Islamic I use Islamic bookstore comm and they they ship pretty quickly and seem to be fairly reasonably priced and That's I've always found that to be the best direction to go and then you find the resources the people that you trust who are

Consistent in their responses, and then you look at what resources they're using and that's that's how you can

Use your your your resources wisely in obtaining the materials that you that you want to have available to you

Lead kind of point in the direction of the caners I know that you had interaction with them as far as their

Soteriology and I wasn't real impressed with the way that they introduced things So I didn't know if they would be someone that you would recommend as credible since they

Come from an Islamic background. Yeah, well I I You know

I've not really utilized their stuff very much Because of that not just because the soteriological issue because of the research issues and So I I can't comment too much on on that but Hey, we're out of time and you might take a look at it.

Thanks for your call today appreciate it and Thursday I'm assuming Two o 'clock not our normal time two o 'clock for the beginning of the dialogue with Steve Greg on the doctrines of grace

Here on the dividing line. See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o

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