Where is the Church in the Ergun Caner Scandal?

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now, it's 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Well, we'll see if I'm here. Well, at least I sound alright that sounded like it was coming from Mac's headroom someplace so somebody has hit a button somewhere and turned on the reverb. Which since we don't sing here or use electric guitars is sort of irrelevant.

So y 'all might want to look for that while I can if we are ailment of Borg. That would have sounded good. Yes, drop your shields. You will be assimilated. That would have sounded that's that's how they did it.

Okay, we figured that out. Anyway, hey today on the program. I Want to start off first and foremost by mentioning that some of you have seen the Banner ad we've had up for quite some time now at ailment org God's wrath a redemption the John 1016 conference in New York, New York, August 4th through 5th.

I have been given information that if you have Intentions of attending and I am to be there along with Michael Horton and body Balcom and Leon Brown Plus other speakers as well. Now would be the time to let folks know about that.

I need to get in touch with them and get registered for that. I believe that possibly the cost is going to be going up fairly soon as well and Doing that kind of thing in New York is a bit of a challenge to begin with.

So It'd be very helpful to them to have an idea of what kind of support is available there. How many people are gonna be coming as far as making plans and so on and so forth? So I would encourage you to be with us for God's wrath a redemption.

I'm I'm gonna be looking forward to Hearing from people like Michael Horton and body Balcom and things like that. So I'm gonna get a chance to get to minister to in in the process, which is a good thing.

So, you know and y 'all can put up with my preaching every once in a while if we absolutely have to so That's August 4th through 5th 2010 In New York City, there is someone playing around with cars out in the parking lot to down there.

Just thought you might want to know that that's what I was pointing at so anyhow. They have security cameras here, they're walking off now, which is good. But we've been watching someone playing around.

We've actually watched someone on recording Heisting a truck out of the parking lot, which did not take them nearly long enough. Unfortunately, the guy got it back what was left of it after it was used to desert run illegal illegals across the border and I'll beat up and and that wasn't it.

I think was stolen again, wasn't it? I think I was stolen twice. Yeah, it was obviously a very comfortable truck for driving across the desert so. Anyway, that's why we keep a keep an eye on things out there in in the parking lot.

Today on the program I have something queued up we were told that Certain certain folks might be calling in but I I did want to address a few issues. Some of you may have noticed That the AP story actually a follow-up AP story on the Ergen Kanner scandal appeared on Fox News Yesterday when Fox News has it, you know between all of their stuff about you know what Hollywood star just gotten, you know a facelift and all that important news that Fox News tends to have out there when Fox has picked It up then it is all over the place.

The irony was the the whole story was about how The the the supporters of Ergen Kanner are disappearing. I Felt like I felt like writing to the reporter and say I know where they are. They're right behind me, okay, they're I know exactly where they are and they have not fallen silent in any way shape or form you know, I don't know if I Have been told I've been told lots of things.

My email box is a very interesting place these days and It does make me wonder if someone may not be monitoring all email being sent from Liberty dot edu to domain name a omin org Does does make me wonder but I Have been told that there has been a very concerted effort on the part of Ergen Kanner supporters contacting pastors all across the United States attempting to create a groundswell of Support for for Ergen Kanner and I don't see that happening.

I think a lot of folks Who I think anyone anyone Who takes more than half an hour? To just sit down and do some reading and some watching just just watch some videos. Just I mean it would take you a lot longer than that to actually even begin to review the amount of information just reading through the court documents and and the stuff that's been posted and It would take you a long long time and I understand that a lot of people don't have that kind of time to to invest but The fact is if you just spent that amount of time, I think that's why there's silence.

Because you just have to go. Oh boy. Well, what's the response to all this? What what's the answer to? Court documentation that someone lives in the United States in 1969 and their own words. More than once now we've documented that Ergen Kanner said that yeah moved here in 1969.

But then he also said he moved here in 1978 and 1979 and he's he's telling two different stories to repeat two different groups of people. Someone that he figures can check him out. He tells him the truth Gullible Christians from the pulpit of a church.

She tells a different story too, and that's the whole Issue so the information is is right there, but I was thinking this morning about something. I have tried as best I possibly could to Try to bring some positive things out of this situation some something edifying people have commented for example in the video that My brother Issam and I did on Ergen Kanner and Arabic I Tried to Insert into that the things that would be helpful for people to understand to know.

It wasn't just up to you mess that one up get up not even close and I went up not even close Tried to discuss some of the you know, the backgrounds. I've had a number of people comment that they had thought, you know, I Hadn't even thought about the fact that that you would expect to hear unique Elements of the Arabic language coming out in what someone's saying if they're even attempting to speak Arabic that there are letters in in Arabic that do not Exist in English and pronunciations do not exist in in English as well and You'd expect to hear those things and that's not what you hear instead you hear what you normally hear on TBN you know when someone is Trying to give proof that you need to be sending in sixty nine dollars based on psalm 69 and they start speaking in tongues to Demonstrate this is the case.

And so, you know, that's that's how you how you handle it so I tried to insert that kind of stuff tried to get something positive out of this this entire scandal in the process of actually dealing with the issues and So this morning I was I was thinking about the fact that if You go on to the Veritas seminary website today You will see two big banners you know, they look like something you put up in your church or something like that for Bible conferences this July and The thing to note about both of them is that one of the speakers in both is Eric and Cantor.

Along with people like Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes and people involved in apologetics that are a part of Veritas seminary and I started thinking about you know, where are my fellow apologists in this situation?

Where are the discernment? Ministries. Where are the people who can go through all sorts of Historical documentation Demonstrating that this cult leader and that cult leader was wrong and they make those conclusions on the basis of Significantly less clear and Compelling information than has been provided in regards to Eric and Cantor.

Where are all those folks? I remember once in Philadelphia. I was at a conference this was prior to the writing of Chosen but free and the Potter's freedom and so it was back when Norman Geisler liked me and It was between 1994 and 2000 because he was making reference to the King James only controversies as James.

You go get those King James only folks were right behind you. We're a long ways behind you, but we're right behind you well, that's that's humorous, but it does sadly seem to address something and as we're Why is it that I sort of I'm not alone there there, you know Turret and Fan and Jason Smathers and the squirrel up in Montana.

That a few of us. And some a few Southern Baptists here there and everywhere but in general it seems I don't want to rock the boat and It's sort of like well, we'll let you do that James. You you go ahead now you make yourself a pariah forever.

And we'll just and it and I sort of wonder because You know, sometimes you look back at when when when movements got started and the Christians at that time didn't seem to be really quick to pick up on things and you know, speak the truth when it needed to be spoken and that that causes a bit of a a bit of a problem and so one of the thoughts across my mind was okay these these Presentations with Veritas seminary are taking place in July allegedly, we are going to have some kind of a Result from the Liberty Seminary investigation Liberty University investigation by June 30th.

What if they come out and say Ergin Cantor has been lying in churches what if he's no longer the president of Liberty Seminary come July. Will he still be speaking at those conferences? Will the results of the inquiry be clear enough to address whether Ergin Cantor is an expert on Islam or not and If he is what's the basis of it?

Is it solely the fact that he wrote on the Crusades a Fact that I've brought out many many times of people like Peter Lumpkins don't listen to everything that I say. They just you know, very selective.

Is that it? Is that or is it not clearly obvious in his own presentations that his claim for expert expertise in regards to Islam is his upbringing as a Sunni Muslim in Turkey and Cara over on the border with Iraq now a couple things crossed my mind at that point.

The first That I think is really important and and I'm sort of criticizing myself here. And I've got lots of people have been joining me in that of late. Why is it? That Liberty University is Being seen as the final authority in this matter.

I mean Certainly in regards to whether Ergin Cantor should be the president of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. Yeah, Liberty University is the final authority on that For obvious reasons but I Simply have one question to ask all of my friends and those who are not my friends in the audience.

And that is where is the church here? Where's the church? Where is? Where's Thomas Road Baptist Church, I believe in fact in the introduction to what we were playing in the pre feed I believe That He is a member of Thomas Road Baptist Church.

I think that's what exactly was said in the introduction. He didn't correct that. So Where's Thomas Road Baptist Church in this Now see a lot of people automatically go. Well, well, why should they have anything to do with this?

Because we have so Eviscerated the authority of the church In evangelicalism the Thomas Road Baptist Church most evangelicals ago. Well, why should they be involved? Folks is because they have a member of their church that has been stand behind dozens and Dozens of pulpits and lying to the people sitting in front of him.

Oh. But he wasn't teaching falsehood about the Trinity and he wasn't teaching much truth about it either. But he wasn't teaching falsehood about the Trinity. You know, these are just exaggerations come on and what it seems to me is that we have had a glaring light Shown upon The Evangelical world and Its view of the pulpit one of the things that I really really appreciate About the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is that we protect the pulpit.

I have seen one two three I have seen three people other than the elders of the church or Members the church, but I wasn't there for that one or I would have been preaching. So for me and I've been a member there since 1989 so Right at this summer would be 21 years I have seen three men Other than the elders of the church ministering in that pulpit Jim Renahan Albert Martin and John Skaggs, those are the all Ministers, but those the only three that I've seen I don't remember anyone else.

I really don't. There may have been some others but I would have been gone at that time possibly I don't know. The reason for that is not because we think there's nobody worthwhile or anything else, but we believe That the ministry of the Word of God from the pulpit before the people of God is the central act of worship of the church.

One of the things that rich and I were talking about recently and I've I know I've talked about this before. Ironically the first time it really bugged me was at a conference in Chicago where I was speaking and so was Norman Geisler.

But the Praise leaders the singers Would get up and say well We're gonna have some worship before the speaker comes. So in other words in their mind the worship was the music the worship was the singing the worship was the the lifting of the hands and the lifting of the voices and Then when you're done with worship the guy talks and I couldn't control myself.

It bugged me so much that eventually after one of the sessions before I started I'd simply said I just need to say something. You know, I appreciate what these guys just did. They're very good. But we aren't done worshiping.

In fact, may I suggest that this is when the real worship starts and I use this phraseology in my prayers when I lead the pastoral prayers of the church Lord help us do the work of worship and So it just seems to me that While it is important for Liberty University to deal with the problem they have in the president of their seminary and his myth-making is documented myth-making Liberty University is not the final arbiter of these issues.

Even if they could even if they do the right thing and we hope and pray that they will even if they're completely open and They really do answer all the questions and they really do bring all the all the facts to bear.

Which we hope and pray will happen. All they can do is deal with Ergen Kanner President of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. They can't deal with Ergen Kanner man behind pulpit Minister Ergen Kanner.

That's Trinity Road. That's not true Thomas Road Baptist Church. I was I saying Trinity Road before anyways, Thomas Road Baptist Church. That's Where it should be being dealt with. Why isn't there an investigation there the authority and the duty of the church to safeguard The purity of the proclamation of the gospel and the handling of the Word of God Is part and parcel of the issue here, but no one even seems to be thinking About that.

I mean I've said from the beginning. This is an integrity issue. This is an integrity issue but it's an integrity issue within the church and Yet so few Even care about that. One of the things that has offended me so much about so much of the lying that has gone on in defense of Ergen Kanner the ad hominem attacks against me thing I'm the issue here when I'm not the issue at all.

But one of the things that has offended me most is people said well, you know, you're just doing this because he's an Arminian. Let me tell you something folks if Ergen Kanner was reformed I Would have been significantly Rougher on him than I've been because I'd hold him to a higher standard not only that if he was reformed I Actually could have gone to a church with a biblical authority structure to address the issue.

I could have gone to the elders. But you see in so much of evangelicalism and in Baptist circles. There's no biblical view of a plurality of elders. There's no biblical view of the protection of the pulpit.

The pulpit has become something then let's face it many churches has disappeared because there's no room for it in front of the band. It's it's been replaced by a guy in jeans and a graphic tee. Who wants to relate to you?

Not to proclaim to you the Word of living God and don't get me started on that. But I really think that that this is this is one of the major issues here and it's been missed. Where is the church in this where is the church in this situation?

I Can't seem to locate it can't seem to find it. So whatever happens with The inquiry from Liberty University, however, it comes down either the right thing. Factual full open disclosure all the issues dealt with.

Which we can hope and pray for but I'll be perfectly honest I'm not holding my breath or if it's the worst thing it can happen a full-blown cover-up well what Ergon actually meant was he became a naturalized citizen in 1979 and and You know the Dukes of Hazzard.

Yeah, you know he was talking about Daisy Duke and how she's hot, you know. Yeah, and from behind a pulpit. Hey, it's just it's just a little bit of exaggeration a little bit of theological leverage there, you know.

Which will only result in 2020 and nightline and all the others beaten a path down Lynchburg or somewhere in between. Whatever the result is. Unless the church addresses this it will not have been addressed.

That's why did y 'all see the thing? What was that guy's name? He was the head of the Big evangelical thing and he got caught with having a three-year Haggard. Ted Haggard. You know three year long relationship with a gay prostitute and all the rest of stuff.

He's starting a new church he's starting a new church and and people Sit around going why. Why what what what are people looking for? Are there so few good churches left that you why? There is massive ecclesiastical ignorance In evangelicalism today and this situation is demonstrated we were playing as as our pre feed let people know that we're on and we're feeding and so on over a portion of a sermon from January 23rd of this year by Ergen Kanner it is 98 percent Entertainment it's telling jokes.

It's telling stories the same stories and jokes. We've heard over and over again. You know sometimes a little bit of a twist very well-delivered he's very good at his timing. He is an excellent speaker, but there wasn't enough theology or Bible in it to keep a hungry saint alive and I've listened to a lot of these things and others of you have listened to more of them than I have I don't have time to and It's always the same thing you tell some stories you get people laughing you go the text for about three and a half minutes you throw some Greek words out, and then it's back to the stories and That has become accepted as pulpit ministry and the results we see all around us.

Results we see all around us. That's there you go, so where's the church? Where's the church in all of this? That's that's what needs to take place there needs to be Thomas Road. Needs to stand up and do what a church needs to do.

No matter what Liberty University does is that gonna am I gonna hold my breath on that one. No, but we could hope and pray. Because that's what needs to take place eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

I'm gonna stay on topic here of Jordan. We'll get to you just hang with us, but I want to stay on topic here. Let's talk with David. Hi David. Hey, dr. White. How are you? And you are. Yeah, problem is when you're on the right side of history.

You're normally dead before anybody finds out.

Oh, yeah. And and I'm glad you use the word Laura, but today was the first time that you use that word and misrep I mean if you say that you debated Shabir Ali and why well not only said it not only said it once you you you put.

It in a particular location and now you refuse to say who it was you debated in that location because you say you misspoke. You said a second time and connect it with Abdul Salim someone you who know, you know is not in fact a Muslim.

You it's the it's the you know, all this stuff coming together and. Then the thing that really got it for me because you know I have honestly Ergun seems like a likable guy in many ways. And so I have tried to recognize it.

I've tried to put on to the side what happened in 2005 2006. I've tried to look at the information, but here's the problem. We have two instances now two instances a Turkish interview and the 2002 AP story.

Where at the very same moment we can demonstrate Ergun Kander was traveling the country staying behind pulpits saying I was raised in Turkey son of a Islamic scholar and I came here in 1978 and 1979 at the very same time.

He's saying that to those people to the AP reporter and to the Turkish newspaper. Who can check if he knows Turkish or Arabic? He came here in? 1969 he knew that he was telling two completely different stories the same time.

I don't know how anybody can look at that and go. Oh, you know, he just just mixing things up just mixing things up. It's not possible.

One dimension, of course, he's a family man. I mean, he's he's married and he's got kids and I just cannot come home speaking Arabic, you know what I mean? And they've been around him enough. I mean you mentioned his brother.

He's gotta know and I'm just wondering what are these people thinking because I mean not only is it morally wrong? Anybody you wouldn't have to go to a believer. You could go to what non-believer and they're gonna tell you don't do that because it doesn't work.

You talk to people enough from a pulpit, you know, you're on YouTube and you're many, you know multiple times. Could be other languages. You're saying you're meeting with all these people and you never have.

Eventually, I'm gonna get out there and you're gonna get caught eventually.

Eventually, I I'd see that's common sense. But but be honest with you I cannot imagine the mindset of standing in front of an audience And saying these things when you know that what you're saying Is not true.

I can not conceive of this.

I'm scared to try to pronounce Arabic words, and I know those are the right words. I mean, I don't know Arabic but the few times you drop it in there. I'm scared to do that. Sure People I speak Arabic.

I'm just saying like the few times that you might you know. Say like you saw or a law or something and then you just think couldn't I just shouldn't I just stick with the English words? And in fact if he had done that He'd actually be in less trouble.

He's trying to throw these Arabic words out there and he's not even using them, but see all of it. All of it is.

And this is this is one thing that again if someone calls in today Maybe we can have a discussion on this but there are people who have defended him who in essence have have adopted what I call the theoretical avalanche approach and that is theoretically If you could plot the course of every single rock in an avalanche you could move out of the path of any single rock.

But avalanches do not come one rock at a time. And what people have been doing is they have been failing to see the cumulative Effect of all of these issues. They're saying well, you know. Maybe he rushes when he speaks and that's why we can't understand his Arabic.

We understand his English just fine, and he allegedly learned that from the Dukes of Hazzard. I Mean, come on you even but but let's let's say you come up with a plausible Explanation of one fact, but then you go over here and three different times.

You say Ramadan is 40 days long, right? And then you go over here and it's the it's avalanches.

I think it's pretty apologetic to Islam is on like one that I even caught in. That Mohammed Khan it was mentioned in the one that's Arabic. He's got like about 50 different ones on YouTube with different titles, right?

And the one that you played and granted he was focusing on the Arabic that little bit and I can later Muslims have gone back. I was Isaac and actually there's that he buys into that whole. I guess you could say striking women that's mentioned in the Quran.

Yeah, and that's that's what I tried to bring out and and got my head handed to me on a platter when I Pointed out something that emir a canner had done in in just accepting a particular interpretation of surah 4157 the substitution view and not even mentioning that there's all sorts of reasons not to think that.

That's what it's actually. Talking about he presented it to his audience as if well, the Quran says somebody else was put upon the cross, right? It's only one. Yeah, exactly. All sorts of different views and so it was that kind of thing that again made me raise the question why is it that people are are going to churches and these men are standing in front of us and Claiming to teach Islam.

As far as I can see the whole thing is their story. And so if the story isn't true Then you have a real problem here. So.

Yeah, and that's one thing that I I don't know. Maybe it's an issue that I have with you on this and I think I'm trying to fill this thing out. One thing that was Information that was like, oh, yeah ever a Muslim.

Well, I was saying the Christians the Christian critics of Eric and Kenner have not ever to my knowledge have never said that he was not.

A Muslim, it's Mohammed Khan that said that. I believe we're saying that because again the guy the the YouTube videos that you post the one. Who's paying? Oh, no. No, I don't blame him. I just I just think that the evidence is overwhelming.

That's that Eric and Kenner's father was clearly a Muslim. The court documents bear out the fact that there was a dispute between Ergon Kenner's mother and his father as to the continuing Education of the boys in in in Islam, but there's there's not even a question about that.

The whole point is Before they were 10 years old he was out of the house and they were raised by their Swedish grandmother and By their hippie mom that's using emir emirs description became a hippie so there's no evidence of this jihadi training living in Turkey and all the rest and.

Yeah, yeah.

Of course and one of the reasons I could see and I'm a Muslim at the world. Leaving I know the fact that there have been be honest on YouTube and elsewhere Muslims who have lied about Christian. No question about it.

I mean, I the one that's in my mind is Waleed Shabbat and that they they they were saying all kinds of false things, right? You know, they do that on YouTube in a Muslim. Even these guys you've been putting on your website, you know you the one.

Who was it? The Gerald Dirks, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what you're referring to. But yeah, look we have. Over and over again.

Exactly. Akhmet didat was was just as just as bad with some of his mispronunciations. There in Canada was. But there's there's. We have tried to be consistent. I have over the years criticized the people that have on the Dean show who claim to be former Christians.

Who are clueless about?

Christianity like a pastor it really does doubt if it is true.

Well, not only that it's sort of funny but because you have you have former youth ministers, aha. Yeah, and deacons deacons. Yeah, and they're they're very being turned into expert. Well, David I yeah, we're sort of agreeing with each other on a lot of stuff there.

I.

Real quick. You're lying clearly, but you are brother if you will come that we're not just right. I mean.

Well, David, I Posted a plea to Irving Cantor At least two weeks ago. It is in his hands to end this today. Mm-hmm, if you're right if if he wanted this over with and it could it could be over with Today because the fact the matter is he's the one who by his silence has in essence Incubated this entire situation.

Mm-hmm. It don't tell me that if he lived in Turkey up until 1978. Look I can sit here right now. I'm a little bit older than Irving Cantor and I can tell you my my Kindergarten teacher is mrs. Sullivan.

My first grade teacher was mrs. Miller my second grade teacher was ms. Ashinger, even though she got married right at the end of the year and broke my heart because I was in love with her but. And I went to Rossmoor in elementary school and I can get I was I.

I lived at 501 St. Mark's Road and and a 301 st. Mark's Road and 5 Belmore Road in Camp Hill and Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. I remember those things he could tell us what Street you live on in Ankara.

Where what city did you live in. Put us in contact with your relatives that could testify they saw you there? That's not difficult, right? He could prove his story. Exactly he could prove his story today if he wanted to but he is the one keeping this going.

Don't throw this on me.

I mean, it seems pretty clear to me that I mean, I I do think he's conscious of what he's doing. But there does seem to be a level of I guess you could say complete other people that are defending him.

I'm like why I mean, it's oh, it's it's it's denominational.

Cronyism is what it is. It's tradition and it's sad. It's sad. It really is. David got a ride. Thank you, sir. All right, thanks. That's gone. God bless. Bye. Bye. And real quickly, let's talk with Steve.

Hi Steve.

Hi. You asked a question as to where is the church in that fight right figured out? One of the answers to that is that after 9 -11 it's almost a threat. We needed an answer that mm-hmm and He came out and he had at that mm-hmm he rose to prominence upon our ignorance essentially.

Well, let me let me go a step beyond it. I'm afraid it's not just ignorance. So there's there's also a level of bigotry in it. There really is. I mean, let's be fair. We wanted to hear the worst we could hear.

And there's lots of bad stuff in Islam. But the problem is that perspective ends up making Islam a monolith and We don't like it when people treat Christianity as a monolith we want to be able to make sharp distinctions, but when it comes Islam, we're not allowed to make sharp distinctions evidently and Unfortunately, it does seem to me because I've experienced this.

I I had a young woman from Liberty Communicate with me and say well, I bet you for the the mosque at ground zero because you're all chummy with the Muslims and And the mindset of that just just leaves me stuttering.

I recognize there are Muslims that are extremely untruthful but I also recognize there are Muslims that have Tried to be as honest as they possibly could be in light of their beliefs in every communication We've had I have to allow those things to be real and it seems to me a lot of Christians want to just simply Have a very simplified all the Muslims are like this.

I don't want to do the work of recognizing the differences that exist between Muslims. I don't want to do that. I just just give me a nice Stereotype and unfortunately, let's face it. One of the things that has been extremely offensive from the first time I met Eric and Kanner is that he has been willing to use racial stereotyping constantly.

Constantly from behind the pulpit talking about towel heads and sand bleeps and Stuff that is extremely offensive and he uses it behind a pulpit and people buy it up. They they go they go great. That's wonderful.

So yeah, I think that's also why you have when he talks to reporters saying one thing. But when you're talking to a bunch of Baptists at a big old megachurch I guess you can just say whatever you jolly well want to say and not assume anyone's could catch on it and that says a lot about.

Well says a lot about the church today. Dave.

Muslims and International students at the college. I just I look at his income put together. And I see more errors in them than Mohammed Khan points out. Like when he's talking about divorce to me the perfect example of him playing to our stereotypes Mohammed Khan missed this tapes me some.

Also missed this when he's talking about divorce when he says all he has to do is he begins with a gross mispronunciation of Russia's it's so badly this pronunciation of what it renders it Unintelligible unless you realize that he's playing to the fact that we American Baptist People Muslims start all of their prayers by facing Mecca and say well.

I don't know what I don't know that we can identify what he was trying to. I don't know he was saying a lot of Our part even if he was because I've heard him say that pronounce that correctly, so I don't.

It sounded to me honestly Steve like he was saying something other than that. But you know every time I Mean every single time he allegedly says something he's quote-unquote rushing. I think the reason he's rushing is because he's making it up.

You know I'm sorry.

No. Not that he's making up a word. It's that he's forced intentionally. Knowingly to lend himself credibility to people who don't know. No.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that. I don't think he's familiar with the actual terms personally, but that's okay, but You know the point is that the church is is going to have to address this issue, or it's just going to continue festering and It's going to continue causing division, and that's not a good thing Steve.

I've got other colors to get to thank you very much Your phone call today, and thanks for listening to the dividing line. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number 877 -753 -3341 and that's the number that Jordan called quite some time ago.

Sorry about that Jordan, but wanted to keep the topics somewhat consistent. Jumping back and forth can be a little bit confusing. Jordan over in the beautiful land of New Mexico actually. Did I see that you guys have already started getting a little bit of monsoon flow some of the afternoon thunderstorms already over there?

Yeah, yeah, we had a pretty crazy one. Could you keep that over there for a while, please we? Because once that gets over here it becomes at least you have some altitude you get some relief. Once it hits us here in the desert.