Where is the Church in the Ergun Caner Scandal?

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic here is

James white Well, we'll see if I'm here. Well, at least I sound alright that sounded like it was coming from Mac's headroom someplace so somebody has hit a button somewhere and Turned on the reverb

Which since we don't sing here or use electric guitars is sort of irrelevant So y 'all might want to look for that while I can.

Yeah, we are ailment of Borg That would have sounded good. Yes, drop your shields.

You will be assimilated That would have sounded that's that's how they did it. Okay, we figured that out Anyway, hey today on the program.

I Want to start off first and foremost by mentioning that some of you have seen the banner ad

We've had up for quite some time now at ailment org God's wrath the Redemption the John 1016 conference in New York, New York, August 4th through 5th

I have been given information that if you have Intentions of attending and I am to be there along with Michael Horton and body

Balcom and Leon Brown Plus other speakers as well Now would be the time to let folks know about that.

I need to get in touch with them and get registered for that I believe that possibly the cost is going to be going up fairly soon as well and Doing that kind of thing in New York is a bit of a challenge to begin with.

So It'd be very helpful to them to have an idea of what kind of support is available there

How many people are gonna be coming as far as making plans and so on and so forth?

so I Would encourage you to be with us for God's wrath the Redemption.

I'm I'm gonna be looking forward to Hearing from people like Michael Horton and body

Balcom and things like that So I'm gonna get a chance to get to minister to in in the process, which is a good thing

So, you know and y 'all can put up with my preaching every once in a while if we absolutely have to so That's August 4th through 5th 2010

In New York City, there is someone playing around with cars out in the parking lot to down there

Just thought you might want to know that that's what I was pointing at so anyhow They have security cameras here, they're walking off now, which is good

But we've been watching someone playing around. We've actually watched someone on recording

Heisting a truck out of the parking lot, which it did not take them nearly long enough unfortunately, the guy got it back what was left of it after it was used to desert run illegal illegals across the border and I'll beat up and and that wasn't it.

I think I was stolen again, wasn't it? I think I was stolen twice Yeah, it was obviously comfortable truck for driving across the desert so Anyway, that's why we keep a keep an eye on things out there in in the parking lot

Today on the program I have something queued up we were told that Certain certain folks might be calling in but I did want to address a few issues

Some of you may have noticed That the AP story actually a follow -up

AP story on the Ergen Kanner scandal appeared on Fox News Yesterday when

Fox News has it, you know between all of their stuff about you know what

Hollywood star just gotten you know a facelift and all that important news that Fox News tends to have out there when

Fox has picked it up then it is all over the place the irony was the the whole story was about how

The the the supporters of Ergen Kanner are disappearing I Felt like I felt like writing to the reporter and say

I know where they are They're right behind me, okay, they're

I know exactly where they are and they have not fallen silent in any way shape or form you know,

I don't know if I Have been told I've been told lots of things.

My email box is a very interesting place these days and It does make me wonder if someone may not be monitoring all email being sent from Liberty dot edu to domain name a

Omin org Does does make me wonder but I Have been told that there has been a very concerted effort on the part of Ergen Kanner supporters contacting pastors all across the

United States attempting to create a groundswell of Support for for Ergen Kanner and I don't see that happening.

I think a lot of folks Who I think anyone anyone Who takes more than half an hour?

To just sit down and do some reading and some watching just just watch some videos

Just I mean it would take you a lot longer than that to actually even begin to review the amount of information just reading through the court documents and and the stuff that's been posted and It would take you a long long time and I understand that a lot of people don't have that kind of time to to invest but The fact is if you just spent that amount of time,

I think that's why there's silence Because you just have to go. Oh boy.

Well, what's the response to all this? What what's the answer to? Court documentation that someone lives the

United States in 1969 and their own words More than once now we've documented that Ergen Kanner said that yeah moved here in 1969

But then he also said he moved here in 1978 and 1979 and he's he's telling two different stories to repeat two different groups of people

Someone that he figures can check him out. He tells him the truth Gullible Christians from the pulpit of a church.

He tells a different story too, and that's the whole Issue so the information is is right there, but I was thinking this morning about something.

I have tried as best I possibly could to Try to bring some positive things out of this situation some something edifying people have commented for example in the video that My brother

Issam and I did on Ergen Kanner and Arabic I Tried to Insert into that the things that would be helpful for people to understand to know

It wasn't just up to you mess that one up get up not even close and I went up not even close Tried to discuss some of the you know, the backgrounds.

I've had a number of people comment that they had thought, you know, I Hadn't even thought about the fact that that you would expect to hear unique Elements of the

Arabic language coming out in what someone's saying if they're even attempting to speak Arabic that there are letters in in Arabic that do not

Exist in English and pronunciations do not exist in in English as well and You'd expect to hear those things and that's not what you hear instead you hear what you normally hear on TBS You know when someone is trying to give proof that you need to be sending in $69 based on Psalm 69 and they start speaking in tongues to demonstrate.

This is the case And so, you know, that's that's how you how you handle it so I tried to insert that kind of stuff tried to get something positive out of this this entire scandal in the process of actually dealing with the issues and So this morning

I was I was thinking about the fact that If you go on to the

Veritas Seminary website today You will see two big banners you know, they look like something you put up in your church or something like that for Bible conferences this

July and The thing to note about both of them is that one of the speakers in both is

Eric and Kanner Along with people like Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes and people involved in apologetics that are a part of Veritas Seminary and I started thinking about you know, where are my fellow apologists in this situation?

Where are the discernment? ministries Where are the people who can go through all sorts of Historical documentation demonstrating that this cult leader and that cult leader was wrong and they make those conclusions on the basis of Significantly less clear and Compelling information than has been provided in regards to Eric and Kanner.

Where are all those folks? I Remember once in Philadelphia, I was at a

Conference this was prior to the writing of Chosen but free and the potter's freedom and so is back when

Norman Geisler liked me and It was between 1994 and 2000 because he was making reference to the

King James only controversies as James You go get those King James only folks were right behind you. We're a long ways behind you, but we're right behind you

Well, that's that's humorous, but it does sadly seem to address something and as we're

Why is it that I sort of I'm not alone there there, you know turret and fan and Jason Smathers and the squirrel up in Montana That a few of us and some a few

Southern Baptists here there and everywhere, but in general it seems like I don't want to rock the boat and It's sort of like well, we'll let you do that James you you go ahead now.

You make yourself a pariah forever And we'll just and it and I sort of wonder because You know, sometimes you look back at when when when movements got started and the

Christians at that time Didn't seem to be really quick to pick up on things and you know speak the truth when it needed to be spoken and that that causes a bit of a a bit of a problem and so one of the thoughts across my mind was okay these these

Presentations with Veritas seminary are taking place in July allegedly, we are going to have some kind of a

Result from the Liberty Seminary Investigation Liberty University investigation by June 30th.

What if they come out and say? Ergon Kanner has been lying in churches what if he's no longer the president of Liberty Seminary come

July will he still be speaking at those conferences? Will the results of the inquiry be clear enough to address whether Ergon Kanner is an expert on Islam or not and If he is what's the basis of it?

Is it solely the fact that he wrote on the Crusades a Fact that I've brought out many many times of people like Peter Lumpkins don't listen to everything that I say

They just you know, very selective Is that it? Is that or is it not clearly obvious in his own presentations

That his claim for expert expertise in regards to Islam is his upbringing as a

Sunni Muslim in Turkey and Cara over on the border with Iraq Now a couple things crossed my mind at that point

The first That I think is really important and and I'm sort of criticizing myself here

And I've got lots of people have been joining me in that of late Why is it?

That Liberty University is being seen as the final authority in this matter.

I mean Certainly in regards to whether Ergon Kanner should be the president of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary Yeah, Liberty University is the final authority on that For obvious reasons but I Simply have one question to ask all of my friends and those who are not my friends in the audience

And that is where is the church here? Where's the church?

Where is? Where's Thomas Road Baptist Church, I believe in fact in the introduction to what we were playing in the pre feed

I believe That He is a member of Thomas Road Baptist Church.

I think that's what exactly was said in the introduction. He didn't correct that So Where's Thomas Road Baptist Church in this

Now see a lot of people automatically go. Well, why should they have anything to do with this? Because we have so Eviscerated the authority of the church in Evangelicalism the

Thomas Road Baptist Church most evangelicals ago. Well, why should they be involved? folks is because they have a member of their church that has been stand behind dozens and Dozens of pulpits and lying to the people sitting in front of him.

Oh But he wasn't teaching falsehood about the Trinity and he wasn't teaching much truth about it either But he wasn't teaching falsehood about the

Trinity You know, these are just exaggerations come on and what it seems to me is that we have had a glaring light

Shown upon The Evangelical world and Its view of the pulpit one of the things that I really really appreciate

About the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is that we protect the pulpit I have seen one two three

I have seen three people other than the elders of the church or Members the church, but I wasn't there for that one or I would have been preaching.

So for me and I've been a member there since 1989. So Right at this summer would be 21 years

I have seen three men Other than the elders of the church ministering in that pulpit

Jim, Renahan Albert Martin and John Skaggs, those are the all Ministers, but those the only three that I've seen

I don't remember anyone else. I Really don't There may have been some others but I would have been gone at that time possibly

I don't know The reason for that is not because we think there's nobody worthwhile or anything else

But we believe that the ministry of the Word of God From the pulpit before the people of God is the central act of worship of the church one of the things that rich and I were talking about recently and I've I know

I've talked about this before Ironically the first time it really bugged me was at a conference in Chicago where I was speaking and so was

Norman Geisler But the Praise leaders the singers

Would get up and say well We're gonna have some worship before the speaker comes

So in other words in their mind the worship was the music the worship was the singing the worship was the the lifting of the hands and the lifting of the voices and Then when you're done with worship the guy talks and I couldn't control myself

It bugged me so much that eventually after one of the sessions before I started I just simply said I just need to say something.

You know, I appreciate what these guys just did. They're very good But we aren't done worshiping in fact, may

I suggest that this is when the real worship starts and I use this phraseology in my prayers when

I lead the pastoral prayers at the church Lord help us do the work of worship and So it just seems to me that While it is important for Liberty University To deal with the problem they have in the president of their seminary and his myth -making is documented myth -making

Liberty University is not the final arbiter of these issues even if they could even if they do the right thing and we hope and pray that they will even if they are completely open and They really do answer all the questions and they really do bring all the all the facts to bear

Which we hope and pray will happen All they can do is deal with Ergen Kanner President of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary.

They can't deal with Ergen Kanner man behind pulpit Minister Ergen Kanner That's Trinity Road, that's not true

Thomas Road Baptist Church, or was I saying Trinity Road before anyways Thomas Road Baptist Church, that's

Where it should be being dealt with. Why isn't there an investigation there the authority and the duty of the church to safeguard

The purity of the proclamation of the gospel and the handling of the Word of God Is part and parcel of the issue here, but no one even seems to be thinking

About that. I mean I've said from the beginning. This is an integrity issue

This is an integrity issue but it's an integrity issue within the church and Yet so few

Even care about that One of the things that has offended me so much about so much of the lying that has gone on in defense of Ergen Kanner The ad hominem attacks against me thing

I'm the issue here when I'm not the issue at all But one of the things that has offended me most is people said well, you know, you're just doing this because he's an

Arminian Let me tell you something folks if Ergen Kanner Was reformed

I would have been significantly Rougher on him than I've been because I'd hold him to a higher standard not only that if he was reformed

I Actually could have gone to a church with a biblical authority structure to address the issue

I could have gone to the elders But you see in so much of evangelicalism and in Baptist circles.

There's no biblical view of a plurality of elders There's no biblical view of the protection of the pulpit

The pulpit has become something then let's face it many churches has disappeared because there's no room for it in front of the band it's it's

Been replaced By a guy in jeans and a graphic tee Who wants to relate to you?

Not to proclaim to you the Word of living God and don't get me started on that But I really think that that this is this is one of the major issues here and it's been missed

Where is the church in this where is the church in this situation?

I Can't seem to locate it can't seem to find it So whatever happens with The inquiry from Liberty University, however, it comes down either the right thing

Factual full open disclosure all the issues dealt with Which we can hope and pray for but I'll be perfectly honest.

I'm not holding my breath or if it's the worst thing It can happen a full -blown cover -up well

What Ergon actually meant was he became a naturalized citizen in 1979 and and You know, the

Dukes of Hazzard Yeah, he was talking about Daisy Duke and how she's hot, you know

Yeah, and from behind a pulpit Hey, it's just it's just a little bit of exaggeration a little bit of theological leverage there, you know

Which will only result in 2020 and nightline and all the others beaten a path down to Lynchburg or somewhere in between Whatever the result is

Unless the church addresses this it will not have been addressed That's why did you all see the thing?

What was that guy's name? He was the head of the Big evangelical thing and he got caught with having a three -year

Haggard Ted Haggard You know three year long relationship with a gay prostitute and all the rest of stuff He's starting a new church.

He's starting a new church and And people Sit around going why

Why what what what are people looking for are there so few good churches left that you why

There is massive ecclesiastical ignorance In evangelicalism today and this situation is demonstrated we were playing as as our pre feed let people know that we're on and we're feeding and so on over a portion of a sermon from January 23rd of this year by Ergen Kanner it is 98 percent

Entertainment it's telling jokes It's telling stories the same stories and jokes.

We've heard over and over again You know sometimes a little bit of a twist very well -delivered he's very good at his timing

He is an excellent speaker, but there wasn't enough theology or Bible in it to keep a hungry saint alive and I've listened to a lot of these things and others of you have listened to more of them than I have

I don't have time to and It's always the same thing you tell some stories you get people laughing you go the text for about three and a half minutes you throw some

Greek words out, and then it's back to the stories and That has become accepted as pulpit ministry and the results we see all around us

Results we see all around us. That's There you go, so where's the church

Where's the church in all of this? That's that's what needs to take place there needs to be

Thomas Road Needs to stand up and do what a church needs to do

No matter what Liberty University does is that gonna am I gonna hold my breath on that one? No, but we could hope and pray

Because that's what needs to take place eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I'm gonna stay on topic here of Jordan.

We'll get to you just hang with us, but I want to stay on topic here Let's talk with David hi

David. Hey, dr. White. How are you? I'm doing good. I just want to I want to say thank you for being out there and doing this and You are on the right side of history

Yeah, problem is when you're on the right side of history you're normally dead before anybody finds out Well, I mean you mentioned like 2020 and other secular news organizations.

I I really feel this thing's on the cusp of Blowing up that big. Oh, yeah

And and I'm glad you use the word liar I I don't know if you used it before but today was the first time that she used that word

At least that I heard of and that's what it is. I mean there have been exaggerations and Misrepresentations, but just straight -up a lie

I mean if you say that you debated Shabir Ali and you never even met with the guy That's a lie well

Not only said it not only said it once you see you you put it in a particular Location and now you refuse to say who it was you debated in that location because you say you misspoke

You said a second time and connected with Abdul Salim someone you who know, you know is not in fact a

Muslim you it's the it's the you know, all this stuff coming together and Then the thing that really got it for me because you know

I have honestly Ergun seems like a likable guy in many ways and so I have tried to recognize it

I've tried to put on to the side what happened in 2005 2006 I've tried to look at the information, but here's the problem

We have two instances now two instances a Turkish interview and the 2002

AP story Where at the very same moment we can demonstrate Ergun Kander was traveling the country staying behind pulpits saying

I was raised in Turkey son of a Islamic scholar and I came here in 1978 and 1979 at the very same time he's saying that to those people to the

AP reporter and to the Turkish newspaper who can check if he knows

Turkish or Arabic he came here in 1969 he knew that he was telling two completely different stories the same time

I don't know how anybody can look at that and go. Oh, you know, he just just mixing things up just mixing things up It's not possible

One dimension I don't you you touched on a bit, but I feel sad for some people in Lynchburg and that His family, of course, he's a family man.

I mean, he's he's married and he's got kids and I just cannot I Mean, that's just shameful and they've got a no, you know,

I mean, well, I didn't come home speaking Arabic You know what? I mean, and they've been around him enough. I mean you mentioned his brother

He's got a no, and I'm just wondering what are these people thinking because I mean not only is it morally wrong?

Anybody you wouldn't have to go to a believer You could go to what non -believer and they're gonna tell you don't do that because it doesn't work

You talk to people enough from a pulpit, you know, you're on YouTube and you're many, you know multiple times

You're saying you can speak Arabic and Turkish and possibly other languages. You're saying you're meeting with all these people and you never have

Eventually, I'm gonna get out there and you're gonna get caught eventually, I See, that's common sense.

But but be honest with you. I cannot imagine the mindset of standing in front of an audience

And saying these things when you know that what you're saying is not true

I can not conceive of this. I'm scared to try to pronounce Arabic words, and I know those are the right words

I mean, I don't know Arabic but the few times you drop it in there. I'm scared to do that. Sure I'm not even going around telling people

I speak Arabic I'm just saying like the few times that you might you know Say like you saw or a law or something and then you just think couldn't

I just shouldn't I just stick with the English words? And in fact if he had done that He'd actually be in less trouble

He's trying to throw these Arabic words out there and he's not even using them, but see all of it. All of it is

And this is this is one thing that again if someone calls in today, maybe we can have a discussion on this There are people who have defended him who in essence have have adopted what

I call the theoretical avalanche approach and that is theoretically If you could plot the course of every single rock in an avalanche

You could move out of the path of any single rock But avalanches do not come one rock at a time and what people have been doing is they have been failing to see the

Cumulative effect of all of these issues they're saying well, you know

Maybe he rushes when he speaks and that's why we can't understand his Arabic We understand his English just fine and he allegedly learned that from the

Dukes of Hazzard. I Mean, come on you even but but let's let's say you come up with a plausible

Explanation of one fact, but then you go over here and three different times you say Ramadan is 40 days long, right?

And then you go over here and it's the it's avalanches. I think it's pretty clear that he's he's borrowing from pop

Apologetics to Islam like some of the issues he touches on like one that I even caught and then

Mohammed Khan It was mentioned in the one that's Arabic He's got like about 50 different ones on YouTube with different titles, right?

And the one that you played and granted he was focusing on the Arabic But when he talked about who Abraham in the

Quran Sacrificed on Mount Moriah and he says Muslims say it was Ishmael and he said he even said that the

Quran does that and No, it does not I even knew that little bit and I could catch it that fast that it's left ambiguous and So later

Muslims have gone back and they've debated amongst themselves whether Ishmael was Isaac and actually there's varying traditions on that one

That's that he buys into that whole I guess you could say pop thing kind of like with the with the striking women that's mentioned in the

Quran, yeah, and that's that's what I tried to bring out and and got my head handed to me on a platter when

I pointed out something that emir a camera had done in in just accepting a particular interpretation of surah 4157 the substitution view and not even

Mentioning that there's all sorts of reasons not to think that that's what it's actually talking about He presented it to his audience as if well, the

Quran says that somebody else was put upon the cross And so it was that kind of thing that again made me raise the question why is it that people are are going to churches and these men are standing in front of us and Claiming to teach

Islam as far as I can see the whole thing is their story

And so if the story isn't true Then you have a real problem here. So Yeah, and that's one thing that I I don't know

Maybe it's an issue that I have with you on this and I think I'm trying to fill this thing out one thing that was Said and I don't know if it's accurate or not is

When this was coming out he you know arrogant and in his handlers or wherever they came out with this

Information that was like, oh, yeah. Well, I am a Muslim Here's why and my dad he's from Turkey and he's a Muslim all this

And you were saying and you were right in saying this well not right But just what you're saying was right is that no one's saying that he's not ever a

Muslim Well, I was saying the Christians the Christian critics of Eric and Cantor have not ever to my knowledge have never said that he was not a

Muslim it's Mohammed Khan that said that I believe we're saying that because again the guy that YouTube videos that you post the one who's bringing this out to you.

It appears that that's what he's saying. Yeah, I don't fully blame him Oh, no, no,

I don't blame him. I just I just think that the evidence is overwhelming That that Eric and Cantor's father was clearly a

Muslim the Dalai the court documents bear out the fact that there was a dispute between Eric and Cantor's mother and his father as to the continuing education of the boys in in in Islam There's there's not even a question about that.

The whole point is Before they were 10 years old he was out of the house and they were raised by their

Swedish grandmother and By their hippie mom that's using emir emirs description became a hippie

So there's no evidence of this jihadi training living in Turkey and all the rest

Yeah, yeah So that's the reason why I mean when you you I like the video you put out that said, you know

That a disbeliever an unbeliever can at times be something that's truthful Of course

And one of the reasons I could see and I and I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here is that were some people

You know, they're a little bit skittish it taking a Muslim at the world I know leaving I know is the fact that there have been be honest on YouTube and elsewhere

Muslims who have lied about Former Muslims that have become Christian no question about I mean

I the one that's in my mind as well He's Shabbat and that they they they were saying all kinds of false things about him

They never doubted that he was an Arabic speaker an Arab But you know that they said he was

Christian flange and all this and that in the documentation was there that he was who he? Said he was and they still didn't want to believe said false things about J.

Smith, right? You know, they do that on YouTube and so I in a way for me to me

It's almost an opportunity to put it back on a Muslim and I would say well, you know Muhammad and the

Quran is about as knowledgeable as Christianity as arrogant is Even these guys you've been putting on your website, you know, you're the one who was at the the one of the

Gerald Dirks, no. No, he was one of the Muslims and he was saying this stuff was in Greek He's saying all this

Greek was saying if he doesn't know Greek and he was getting it wrong I'm not sure. I'm not sure which I referring to but yeah, look we have

Make it there. They're getting it wrong all over the place. I'm a D dot would say stuff That was true.

Exactly. I can a D dot was was just as just as bad with some of his mispronunciations there in cameras

But there's there's we have tried to be consistent I have over the years criticized the people that have on the

Dean show who claim to be former Christians Who are clueless about Farther is if they're so clueless and they claim to have been in such a high level of Christianity like a pastor

Not just a normal congregant that it really does doubt if it is true Well, not only that is sort of funny, but because you have you have former youth ministers.

Uh -huh. Yeah and Deacons, yeah, and they're they're very being turned into expert.

Well, David, I yeah We're sort of agreeing with each other on a lot of stuff there The one issue though Yeah, I mean has anyone put out the idea there of okay going to Eric and Karen thing, you know

Okay, look brother you're lying clearly, but you are brother if you will come forward with this and be honest

You know, maybe on our end. There's some grace and there's some compassion and you know

Maybe you don't have to be kicked out of Liberty. Maybe maybe now we don't know there are consequences But you know, maybe we can help your family

I mean, I would like to see that kind of thing that we're not just trying I mean David well

David I I Posted a plea to Ergin Cantor At least two weeks ago.

It is in his hands to end this today Mm -hmm.

If you're right if he wanted this over with and it could it could be over with today because the fact the matter is he's the one who by his silence has

In essence incubated this entire situation Don't tell me that if he lived in Turkey up until 1978 look

I can sit here right now I'm a little bit older than Ergin Cantor and I can tell you my my

Kindergarten teacher was mrs. Sullivan. My first grade teacher was mrs. Miller my second grade teacher was ms.

Ashinger, even though she got married right at the end of the year and broke my heart because I was in love with her but And I went to Rossmoor in elementary school and I can

I was I I lived at 501 St. Mark's Road and and a 301 st.

Mark's Road and 5 Belmore Road in Camp Hill and Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania I remember those things he could tell us what

Street you live on in Ankara Where what city did you live in put us in contact with your relatives that could testify they saw you there?

That's not difficult, right? Exactly he could prove his story today if he wanted to But he is the one keeping this going.

Don't throw this on me He's pulling other people into his sin,

I mean, yep, it seems pretty clear to me that on I mean I I do think he's conscious of what he's doing but there does seem to be a level of I guess you could say compulsion and But these other people that are defending him.

I'm like, why are you doing that? I mean, it's oh, it's it's it's denominational Cronyism is what it is.

It's tradition and it's sad. It's sad. It really is David got a ride. Thank you, sir All right, thank you.

God bless. Bye -bye And real quickly, let's talk with Steve. Hi Steve Hi You asked a question as to where is the church in that fight right figured out?

One of the answers to that is that after 9 -11 it's almost a threat. We needed an answer that mm -hmm and He came out and he had at that time a semi -plausible story.

Mm -hmm. He wrote to prominence upon our ignorance essentially Well, let me let me go a step beyond it.

I'm afraid it's not just ignorance So there's there's also a level of bigotry in it. There really is. I mean, let's be fair.

We wanted to hear the worst we could hear And there's lots of bad stuff in Islam but the problem is that perspective ends up making

Islam a monolith and We don't like it when people treat Christianity as a monolith we want to be able to make sharp distinctions but when it comes to Islam, we're not allowed to make sharp distinctions evidently and Unfortunately, it does seem to me because I've experienced this.

I I had a young woman from Liberty Communicate with me and say well

I bet you for the mosque at ground zero because you're all chummy with the Muslims and And the mindset of that just just leaves me

Stuttering I recognize there are Muslims that are extremely untruthful, but I also recognize there are

Muslims that have Tried to be as honest as they possibly could be in light of their beliefs in every communication

We've had I have to allow those things to be real and it seems to me a lot of Christians want to just simply have

A very simplified all the Muslims are like this I don't want to do the work of recognizing the differences that exist between Muslims.

I don't want to do that I just just give me a nice stereotype and Unfortunately, let's face it

One of the things that has been extremely offensive from the first time I met Ergen Kanner is that he has been willing to use racial stereotyping constantly constantly from behind the pulpit talking about towel heads and sand bleeps and Stuff that is extremely offensive and he uses it behind a pulpit and people buy it up.

They they go they go great That's wonderful. So yeah, I think that's also why you have when he talks to reporters saying one thing

But when you're talking to a bunch of Baptists at a big old mega church I guess you can just say whatever you jolly well want to say and not assume anyone's could catch on it and that says a lot about Well says a lot about the church today

I mean, I've I've had Four years of hanging out with Muslims and international students at the college

I just got out of and one intro Islam course and I look at his the videos that mom come put together and I see more errors in them than Mohammed Khan points out

Like when he's talking about divorce I Mean it's to me the perfect example of him playing to our stereotypes

Mohammed Khan missed this your Arabic tutor Forgotten his name that escapes me some

Do some also missed this when he's talking about divorce when he says all he has to do is face

Mecca and Begin he begins with a gross mispronunciation of Alaska Akbar He rushes it so badly and has him as has a habitual mispronunciation of one

Arabic letter So that it renders it unintelligible unless you realize that he's playing to the fact that we

American Baptist People think that all Muslims start all of their prayers by facing

Mecca and saying the Chuck beer Well, I don't know what

I don't know that we can identify what he was trying to I don't know He was saying a lot of Akbar even if he was because I've heard him say that pronounce that correctly

So I don't it sounded to me honestly Steve like he was saying something other than that But you know every time

I Mean every single time he allegedly says something he's quote -unquote rushing I think the reason he's rushing is because he's making it up, you know

I'm sorry. It's just this one when he's rushing not Not that he's making up a word

It's that he's forcing Intentionally The wrong word into a context.

Mm -hmm. So in he knowingly is misusing proper

Arabic just enough To lend himself credibility to people who don't know no

Well, we'll have to disagree on that I don't think he's familiar with the actual terms personally, but that's okay, but you know, the point is that the church is is going to have to address this issue or it's just going to continue festering and It's gonna continue causing division and that's not a good thing

Steve. I've got other callers to get to Thank you very much your phone call today. And thanks for listening to the dividing line 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

And that's the number that Jordan called quite some time ago Sorry about that Jordan, but wanted to keep the topics somewhat consistent jumping back and forth can be a little bit confusing

But Jordan over in the beautiful land of New Mexico Actually, did

I see that you guys have already started getting a little bit the monsoon flow some of the afternoon thunderstorms already over there

Yeah, yeah, we had a pretty crazy one. Could you keep that over there for a while, please we

It is because once that gets over here it becomes at least you have some altitude you get some relief

Once it hits us here in the desert. Oh, it's just horrible So anyways, those of you who don't know we're talking about don't worry about it

But I watch I watch the flow coming up out of Mexico and it goes into New Mexico first But then when it starts moving west, that's when we are our dew points get up and it gets ugly over here.

Really ugly Yeah, that works out for me

I just want to say that I really appreciate the program I've been a longtime listener and I feel like everything that you've been talking about recently has kind of been revolving around me

I'm an ex. Well, I guess I'm an alumni of Calvary Chapel Bible College out in Marietta and I don't know if you remember your debate with Bob Wilkin, but I actually go to I went to his church when

I was down in California, okay, I just kind of been seeing all of this kind of develop around me and it's been pretty

Amazing to watch some of the things that have been said and and being a student You can't exactly come out and pick a side if you would

But I just want to let you know it's been that the total blessing I've been following all the videos on YouTube and just really learning a lot.

All right, and What brought you all the way over to New Mexico though, are you are you in a church there?

Oh, I actually got married about two weeks ago. Well, congratulations where she lives. Thanks. I appreciate it

Oh, I did two weddings weekend before last so it's about two weeks ago interestingly enough

So I performed two weddings So it's I don't know I'm starting to feel old when

I realized that these these young kids I'm marrying are about the age of my kids and it's like a brother man

So anyway, it's a little scary when that one time crawls up on you. Oh, it'll believe me.

It's it's crawling up on you, too Yes But anyway,

I just wanted to ask a few questions or maybe just kind of give you leave to to go where you want here but I was

I'm just newly reformed especially kind of developed that that Theology as I was at Bible College Ironically enough just just started looking at what the word said instead of taking a preconceived notion that I had grown up with And unfortunately limited at home.

It's not really something that you can mention that particular school without really Becoming a pariah yourself, you know, yes kind of like the four -letter word of Bible College James White James White and that would those would be about the same.

Yeah, right I mean, I've been in class at times where I was thinking about asking because it kind of came up But I've actually had teachers throw out the word heresy

With with conversation like that So I figured it'd be better if I just kind of sat in the back and didn't really ask that question

But I was hoping you could you could take just limited at home and talk about it as it discussed in the book of Hebrews Because I've been hearing you say a lot about how it's clearly taught there

But I've been having trouble really developing that just because I mean I'm new to the book of Hebrews and I've got a whole bunch of preconceived notions and church

Churcheology coming up in the church. So if you could just Go at that. Sure. Sure.

Well a couple things. I think you might be able to find I know I have given this presentation some churches.

I don't remember if it's on sermon audio or whatever but I know I've given a presentation on Particular Redemption, especially out of the book of Hebrews and of course right now

I am preaching through Hebrews so I'll be preaching right at the end of June and then twice in the middle of July and Lord willing

I'll be in Hebrews for each one of those as well And I'm now getting into the real meat of that section and in Hebrews 7, especially

Which it will be starting in the next sermon So we have now and for those of you who this sort of a general announcement for those of you who have been upset with our real audio

Website at prbc .org and the fact that there hadn't been anything Posted there for a year. I have signed up a sermon audio and so our stuff will now be appearing on on sermon audio and including the sermons and Bible studies and I'll be uploading a

Bible say from John chapter 10 that I did yesterday or Sunday morning later today. So anyway so there will be more there and I would

I would Really direct you to those fuller Explications but just to lay it out the in in six minutes seven minutes, which

I have here at the end of the program Fundamentally the the beauty of the presentation of particular redemption in the book of Hebrews is found in recognizing the the beauty of Christ as sacrifice as High -priest the two together.

He is not only the sacrifice But he is also the one offering the sacrifice and hence he is the one who then having obtained eternal redemption goes into the holy place and He offers that and he becomes the intercessor the one who intercedes when we see the

Old Testament backgrounds when we see the Presentation that is made of the work of the high priest.

We're on that Day of Atonement He not only offers the sacrifice you have the shedding of the blood, but that's not all

He then it's not a separate work. It is the one work of the high priest he then has to take that sacrifice to the place of atonement to to the place of covering and he

Sprinkles that blood upon that holy place and only he is able to go in there and do that that is part and parcel of the one work that is his on that Day of Atonement and the writer of the

Hebrews takes that as his primary argumentation that the the pressure being placed upon these

Hebrew Christians to go back and offer sacrifice to By offering that sacrifice deny what

Jesus did deny that he was a final sacrifice He develops that from from 7 all the way into the middle of chapter 10

So there's a whole section there and he developed development develops. It's along different lines at first he develops it along the line of the high priest and Because he has an indestructible life.

He is able according to Hebrews chapter 7 to save forever or to the uttermost

Those who draw nigh unto God by him which would be the particular people there in in the

Old Testament It wasn't it wasn't the the Babylonians. It wasn't the Egyptians When the high priest went in he represented only

Those people who drew nigh to God by faith to worship It was a particular audience that he was propitiating their sins.

It wasn't even all the people of Israel it was only those who drew near to worship and At sense he enters into that place and he has an indestructible life

Unlike the old high priest who have to keep going in and out in and out they can never offer a perfect sacrifice and they can never intercede perfectly because they are

Prohibited by their their fallen nature and by death He having conquered death enters into the very presence of God himself the father and since he there

Provides a perfect sacrifice then he is able to save to the uttermost

Seeing he always lives to make intercession for them that recognition of the relationship of sacrifice and intercession is what makes the the beautiful presentation of 7 through 10 so powerful

But then he picks up especially beginning in chapter 9 on this idea of the repetitiveness of The old sacrifices the fact that every person who drew nigh unto

God in worship in That that Old Testament Old Covenant context would remember that they had done this before and the high priest

This has blown me away to consider this the high priest think about what it's like to be the high priest You go in and let's say you are high priest for 20 years

You go in on year 18. And what do you see in the holy place? No one else, but you has been in there

For the past 18 years only you are are in there What are you gonna see on the place of atonement?

You're gonna see the dry crusty blood of every offering that has been made before this one and You're gonna remember having sprinkled that blood and the whole point of Hebrews is it's imperfect

It becomes as Hebrews chapter 10 says an anamnesis a reminder of sin

Sin has not been removed by this. This is a shadow a foreshadowing of what is to come and So the the fact that it is this repetitive sacrifice

Points the fact that there is coming a day when there is going to be a single sacrifice

And that's the point of nine and ten he enters into that holy place having obtained eternal redemption not a partial redemption

Eternal redemption he enters in and by that one will that one covenant he perfects for all time

Those for whom that sacrifice is made so we take this high view

That most people miss because it's based upon the Old Testament. Let's face it most evangelicals today are canonically challenged

They don't know anything about the Old Testament. They don't know anything about the sacrifice that you know, it's all that blood stuff

You know, let me go read in the psalm someplace. I'm like that and so they they miss the

Fulfillment language that is found in the book of Hebrews in the work of Christ as high priest as intercessor the one who is both the offer offerer and the offering they miss all of that stuff and So as a result the text that gives the clearest longest

Didactic explanation of the purpose and intention the Atonement is missed and in its place What most people have is him as an emotional doctrine of the

Atonement a traditional Doctrine the Atonement that simply doesn't fit. It's the idea of Jesus making it

Possible for us to be saved by his Atonement. He makes us savable rather than Hebrews chapter 7 telling us he is able to save to the uttermost and So there's the contrast that ends up being drawn

As as I drive people to that that that text and say listen to what the

Argument was this is what the writer thought would be so effective to keep people who are under such tremendous

Pressure to go back to the old ways to go to to deny Christ What would they find?

to be in those glorious words of chapter 6 a Sure and steadfast anchor for the soul that goes into the holy place and is unmovable

Jesus who has gone in is our forerunner. What are they gonna find to be that kind of?

beautiful proper foundation that will stand up against that pressure the finished perfect sacrificial work of Jesus Christ that Perfects those for whom it is made.

That is that sure anchor that is given to them in the book of Hebrews How's that?

Yep, in fact, I'm gonna be going back and getting all of them from the beginning from Hebrews 1 and uploading them over the next couple of weeks and So the whole series will be available there and then as I'm preaching them, they will be posted as well

Most of them are on YouTube right now I'm a YouTube channel, but we'll be putting on sermon audio as well.

Great. I appreciate it. Okay. Thanks for saving Hang on there Jordan. Thank you. God bless and congratulations again on the wedding.

All right. Bye. Bye all right, well there was a six or seven minute sermon at The end which is good to get a chance to do after the topic the necessary topic

That we had to deal with before that keep praying for us folks There's a lot of folks that would like to see us silenced as we try to speak on these subjects

But as God gives us freedom, we are going to continue to press on Lord willing. We will see you here on Thursday afternoon

See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks