Session 9: Spurgeon & Cigars; Grace Church Update; Q&A

Kootenai Church

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

So Phil you said that when you come back next time you're going to talk about the Tabernacle and the construction of the tabernacle, okay?

00:07

But I don't want to wait until then to talk about have you described Spurgeon and his cigars

00:13

Okay, because that is a fascinating issue because a lot of people think that Spurgeon regretted smoking cigars or that he stopped

00:21

Other people think that he was so virulently pro cigar that he was almost aggressive with it, right?

00:27

And so you can kind of explain that and when you're done with all of that ask some questions if you want

00:33

About this is just about Spurgeon cigars. And then if Phil gets through that quickly We'll have a few questions about that.

00:39

I want to talk about Grace Community Church and the COVID restrictions. All right yeah, I wasn't going to talk about Spurgeon and his cigars, but Jim compelled me.

00:48

So here we are. It is one of the most common questions that I get asked Is it true that Spurgeon smoked cigars or is it true that he gave them up?

00:57

By the way, there is no photograph In existence of Spurgeon with a cigar in his hand.

01:03

I photoshopped that in there, so He he would not appreciate my doing that but it it seemed to go with the page

01:13

And this was one of the lingering controversies in his life that he sort of got into accidentally

01:19

But I get so many questions for it that I I put this page up the lore usually from American sources

01:28

And I have printed sources newspaper accounts of Spurgeon in his life dating back to the year he died

01:34

With American people saying yeah, he smoked cigars for a while But he gave it up because he became ashamed of it or he saw an ad in a window of a shop and it

01:43

Embarrassed him so he gave it up Yeah, you can ignore my text messages and tell my wife to stop sending them to me so so Yeah, I hope nothing personal comes through there, but just just ignore it okay, like so so I was

02:08

I I My understanding was that Spurgeon never gave up Smoking and so when

02:15

I met his great -grandson Actually encountered him online. I never met him face -to -face, but I asked him the question about that and he said

02:25

He said Oh Spurgeon was still smoking a cigar the day he died He said I own this half cigar that he smoked that he didn't finish

02:33

And he said I have a cigar case and I said yeah, send me pictures of that so he did so here

02:39

It is this is a this is Spurgeon cigar case the one on top the half smoked cigar is the half smoked cigar

02:47

That in fact let me click the picture Gives you a high -res look at this note, which says

02:55

CH Spurgeon cigar case with Unfinished cigar smoked at Mentone January 1980

03:02

January 1892 given to me by CHS Armor bearer

03:08

W. Harold that was his secretary again Signed by I think

03:14

Thomas Spurgeon T Spurgeon, so he passed it on to his grandson and So it still exists somewhere today now that David Spurgeon the great -grandson that I knew has gone to heaven

03:24

I I don't know I don't know where this would be today But I was happy to get a picture of it and a letter of the authentication people often also ask me what brand did he smoke and These had the pictures of unsmoked cigars that he sent me had pictures of the brand on it, so I looked it up It's called providor providor

03:50

Providor de la casa which means purveyor to the royal house And the other two circles identify the

03:57

FP del Rio Francisco Perez del

04:02

Rio the famous Cuban cigar maker of that era Here's a link to some of their typical labels and boxes, so this was a large company that made

04:17

Cigars and the history of it here the brand that Spurgeon smoke was thrown to the market in 1880 by somebody and in 1881 the brand was sold to Francisco Perez del

04:30

Rio who used it as his name for the industrial unit he'd settled to there's even the address of the factory here

04:35

As you know all the cigar factories have been taken over now by the Cuban government and by the way as I said there's no photograph of Spurgeon, but a contemporary artist a

04:46

Woman who I don't know sent me this Painting that she did of Spurgeon with his cigar in his hand and the smoke coming out

04:53

I don't think he would appreciate that either But I liked it that she got the the pose that he's so well known for plus the cigar there

05:01

I hope he flicks the ashes off before it burns through his pants But there you have it now there are these anecdotes about his cigars

05:13

That are taken from a book a little book that I have that's delightful. It's called Personal reminiscences of Charles Haddon Spurgeon by a man named

05:23

William Williams who knew Spurgeon well and Two of the anecdotes that he records have to do with Spurgeon smoking, so I'll read them to you

05:30

You can probably read them for yourself, but I'll do it just in case all the world knows that mr. Spurgeon now and again enjoyed a cigar not a few caricatures

05:38

Represented him smoking a pipe, but he never used a pipe all the years I knew him his shrewd reply to the gentleman who had heard he smoked

05:46

But could not believe it to be true and asked mr. Spurgeon to satisfy him his choice He said

05:51

I cultivate my flowers, and I burn my weeds It one of his servants one day, so I'm lighting a cigar enjoying your tobacco again said

06:03

George I can do without my tobacco a good easier a good deal easier than you can

06:08

George said Spurgeon Spurgeon says I don't believe you can sir well He says don't smoke again until I do and the servant agreed and so a week passed then two weeks

06:19

Poor old George was dying for his pipe One was asked to intercede with a master so that George might be allowed to have it again.

06:27

No said mr. Spurgeon he made a bargain let him stick to it Eventually George was allowed to smoke, but mr.

06:33

Spurgeon did not have a cigar for months after that That's an important story because it shows that Spurgeon's Use of tobacco was not an addiction it was more of an occasional thing

06:46

Williams goes on to describe this when he was living at night in Gale Lane in Clapham I know exactly where that is it's pretty close to where the

06:53

Wimbledon Grounds are today and Spurgeon had a house there for a while It says he organized an excursion with one of the young men's classes from the tabernacle

07:04

The break with the excursionist was to call for the president on their way to mid Surrey So they're going somewhere all

07:10

I got a picnic or whatever Men arrived in high spirits pipes and cigars alight and looking forward to a day of unrestrained enjoyment

07:17

Spurgeon was ready and waiting at the gauge he jumped on the box seat reserved for him and looking around with an expression of Astonishment he explained what gentlemen are you not ashamed to be smoking so early?

07:29

William says here was a damper dismay on every face pipes and cigars one by one failed and dropped out of sight

07:36

But when all of them had disappeared out came the president's cigar case he lit up and smoked away serenely

07:42

The men looked at him astonished. I thought you said you objected to smoking mr.. Spurgeon one ventured

07:47

Oh, no, I did not say I objected I asked if you were not ashamed and it appears they were because they all put their pipes away

07:57

And of course you've already seen this Tobacco card I would I really don't want to drag this out for you and keep you here longer than you need to but look

08:06

Up this page. You'll find it easily by googling my name and Spurgeon cigars

08:11

And there is a very long annotated account of the controversy that arose what brought this to the forefront of the public was

08:21

Spurgeon had an American preacher come over who preached on I I don't remember the the topic but he was talking about the enslavement of sin and how to Mortify sin and he said that one of the things he had given up was the sin of smoking and of course everybody in the congregation

08:36

Knew that Spurgeon smoked cigars This is not something he hid and so he had to say something after the gentleman finished his message

08:44

And so he said I I have to disagree with him that Smoking is a sin if I thought it was a sin if I thought there was anything wrong with it

08:52

I wouldn't do it, but I intend to go home tonight and smoke the best cigar. I have to the glory of God and There was a newspaper reporter there who reported it in the

09:02

London Telegraph which stirred quite a scandal most Americans believed Smoking is an unsavory habit that Christians shouldn't do in England it wasn't quite so controversial, but there were people in England who objected to smoking and It's pretty much like the attitude towards dancing today lots of Christians believe under no circumstances

09:23

Should you ever dance and others say it's a matter of Christian Liberty and that's how this was Nobody knew that tobacco was the source of lung cancer or or that it wasn't really good for your health

09:33

And in fact Spurgeon's cigars had been recommended to him by a doctor who told him it would ease the pain of his gout

09:40

Whether that's true or not whether it actually would ease the pain of his gout I don't know, but Spurgeon believed it and believed he got benefit from it, and so he kept doing it but The scandal that was stirred when the

09:53

London newspaper reported that Spurgeon said he was going to smoke to the glory of God Put Spurgeon in a position where he had to answer that and so he wrote an article.

10:02

I think it was in the newspaper It's on here somewhere when you read this page. You'll see it, but he basically said I don't want to defend the phrase

10:11

Smoking to the glory of God because it sounds flippant, and and I didn't mean it that way He said

10:16

I'm simply saying I don't believe it's a sin I believe everything I do can be done to the glory of God And we're commanded to do whatever we do whether we eat or drink to the glory of God and I'm simply saying

10:28

I don't believe it's a sin, and I'm not going to stop doing it in order to to Satisfy someone else's scruples give up my

10:36

Christian Liberty for the sake of someone else's conscience And so he wouldn't he wouldn't trouble another person's conscience by trying to cajole them into smoking or by smoking in front of them

10:49

But he felt like when he was at home and reading in his own study He was perfectly free to do whatever his conscience gave him

10:55

Liberty to do and on that I agree with him So there are lots of articles here both for and against Spurgeon it'll give you a really good taste it probably take you a half hour 45 minutes to read it all

11:08

But it will give you a good taste of the controversy that arose over Spurgeon smoking

11:13

And how widespread it was so that it reached even to America and a few years ago a friend of mine

11:19

Gary long Who's a Spurgeon? aficionado and an expert Called me and said that he'd received an offer from someone

11:26

I think in Ohio someone in Central America a central part of the continent like that Who had told him that they found in the attic a collection of his fathers or grandfathers?

11:38

memorabilia that included some personal letters from Spurgeon he had corresponded with Spurgeon and Gary told me that one of them has to do with Spurgeon's cigars, and I said oh

11:49

Send me a photocopy of that so he did and this is it I'll read it to you.

11:55

Well. I transcribed it here. He writes dear friend. I ought to have answered your letter But I've been ill and overworked

12:02

Thanks for it did me good What a badgering I have gone through but I yield not for what

12:08

I said was right There is no Liberty left us by these spiritual prudes When you see an opening say a word for I've been shot at as a long lone crow

12:18

Whereas thousands think as I do or ought to do to be consistent if we cannot live near to God and smoke

12:26

We must give it up. I can and I shall not confess to the contrary not even by my silence

12:33

There's the handwritten letter so so All of that is just to demonstrate so if you hear these tales that are told that Spurgeon gave up smoking

12:46

Don't believe it it didn't happen. I don't necessarily defend People who are smoking aficionados, but I think the way

12:55

Spurgeon did it as I said he wasn't addicted He did it as a matter of Christian Liberty, and I for one would be hesitant to charge him with sin because of it so there you have it if you want a copy of Any of these documents or a picture of Spurgeon's last cigar?

13:13

You can get it at my website as if there's a lot more for the next time you come up with Oh, yeah, so yeah, if you want to hear that's all those technical and and seriously the those newspaper articles about the

13:29

Smoking controversy are fascinating. You really you really will do well to look up that web page and read it all

13:36

It's just it would take us another 45 minutes if I went through the whole thing. That's a whole nother session is what you're saying

13:41

Yeah so a Number of people here when you change the switch gears here just a little bit a number of people here a large number our congregation

13:48

I've been praying for grace community churches. You guys have pushed back against kovat restrictions We know that you shut down like most other churches did you open it up it made you open back up and it made national

13:57

News you and I talked a little bit about this on the way back from the airport We opened up a while before that but haven't had nearly the pushback

14:06

We haven't had any pushback here compared to what you guys have gone through give us an inside Scoop of what it is that made you guys open up.

14:14

What was the reasoning behind that? What conclusion did you guys come to and how did you do it? Yeah, when the when the quarantine was instituted, of course, we like like everyone else had no

14:26

Objective data by which to know whether the virus was really as serious as they were saying it might be and we thought as a matter of prudence

14:34

We should probably obey the government restrictions. They were saying at the time 15 days to flatten the curve and Actually our elders met on Thursday before the quarantine went into effect on Friday morning

14:46

We knew it was coming. It was it had been announced and we had a lengthy discussion about it Among which was what if it's more than 15 days?

14:54

What if this goes on for a month? And most of us said look if it's that serious that they extend it for a month

15:02

We'll continue to do it. But if it turns out to be You know just If the signs are the government is simply grabbing authority

15:12

Using a crisis to to reduce our freedoms Then we'll have to revisit the issue if this is if this is a legitimate health crisis, then we want to be

15:23

Cooperative, but if it's an attempt to for the government to flex their muscles and exert control over people that really isn't

15:30

Where there really isn't a life -or -death crisis, then we'll have to revisit it and we waited until The the quarantine was instituted in mid -march

15:39

The we waited till June before we revisited it and said at that time look nobody at our church has even been hospitalized from it

15:49

Nobody that any of us knew had died and And so we said look

15:56

All right. We're not gonna just Openly defy, but let's just stop up to that point we had been

16:03

John had been preaching to an empty auditorium and it was live -streamed and The elders said let's let's just not have the security guys

16:12

Prohibit people from coming if anybody wants to come that's their risk. They can do it We're not gonna keep people away from public worship.

16:20

And so the first Sunday that that policy was in effect We didn't broadcast it didn't say anything about it, but 300 people showed up for church

16:28

And the second Sunday the auditorium was packed it just immediately by word of mouth spread that a if you want to come to church you can and Our elders said look, we're not going to enforce

16:41

An arbitrary and by the way the the government Guidelines were changing all the time

16:48

Becoming in most cases more and more strict when it didn't seem like there was any reason to tighten it down People weren't dying and stacking bodies on the street like cordwood

17:00

It's just none of the dire predictions. You remember at the beginning they said we'll probably see two million people die 30 % mortality

17:08

And none of that was happening and we said we're not gonna we are not going to be enforcers for an arbitrary policy that really doesn't

17:19

Seem necessary Let's let everyone's conscience determine what they do and the question then was what about the masks?

17:25

Are we gonna enforce mask wearing and John said I don't want to enforce masks Look at what

17:30

Scripture says about let me the Apostle Paul says I come I want to see you face to face You know, we all with unveiled face beholding the glory of Christ There's so much in Scripture about the importance of personal fellowship and face -to -face worship

17:46

Look if somebody wants to wear a mask to keep themselves Safe or or they feel conscientiously that they need to do that to protect others around them.

17:53

Let them do it Nobody's going to criticize anybody for wearing a mask But the elders of our church are not going to be enforcers of a mandate that actually hinders our singing hinders our worship

18:03

We're just not going to do it. And so just gradually over the next three or four weeks the church began to fill

18:12

We had put a tent outdoors At the beginning thinking

18:17

They said if you worship outdoors, you know, you can you can have church meetings

18:23

But then immediately that was one of the arbitrary things they overturned and said well No, even if you're outdoors, you can't meet in groups larger than 15 things like that And if you look at I wrote a lengthy piece that demonstrated with Documentation all the rules that they had put on churches that made it effectively impossible for us to have

18:45

Sunday worship there were people online saying no if you all obeyed the Restrictions you could still meet and you all are you know exaggerating and all that so I documented at all

18:54

There was absolutely nothing a church our size could do to continue having You know corporate worship services, so we felt like look we've got to obey

19:04

God rather than men Jesus says don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together and at the beginning of the quarantine.

19:11

I don't think anyone in America Envisioned that the 15 days to flatten the curve was going to turn out to be 15 months to flatten the economy.

19:19

Yeah and 15 months later now, you know, they're just saying in California that they're going to remove the restrictions

19:27

So in the meantime, obviously the as you know from the news reports the county government

19:34

Attempted to come after us and they find us and threatened to Take away parking spaces that we rent from in useless

19:44

Territory is a river that runs through the property of the church and the sides of it are paved and you can park there

19:51

But the county owns that property and they said we're gonna stop letting you use that property in all

19:56

It's been a positive thing in terms of you know, the practical outcome to our church we've added 1 ,200 people to the membership people who came to grace because their church was closed and had no prospect of opening again and So we've seen an increase in Attendance and increase in giving even though we haven't taken up an offering.

20:19

We didn't pass the Collection plate or do any we you know, try to take whatever reasonable measures there are not to be spreading viruses and you know, despite what you might read on the

20:32

Online there has been no outbreak at Grace Church I only know of a few people who

20:38

Contracted serious cases of kovat and there were a few and there have been a handful of elderly people with other causes

20:45

Who died from kovat? None of them were the people who were coming to our church gatherings

20:50

They were people in nursing homes and living at home and things like that, but people will often cite

20:55

Well, I know this person who went to Grace Church who died from kovat. Yeah in a nursing home Not at our church tonight they didn't catch this at our church he couldn't have because they weren't there

21:06

But you have a lot of that sort of talk going around the truth is we've been meeting shoulder -to -shoulder unmasked since June and there hasn't been a serious outbreak of Kovat in that whole time kovat did affect people in our church in December just like it did the rest of California but the cases of kovat at Grace Church were percentage -wise no higher than they were in the rest of the city and So we still hold to the view that these are oppressive restrictions that are an overreaction to a threat that has been nowhere near as Deadly as it was originally

21:45

Portrayed to be it's been unfair in the way. It's been enforced because governments have encouraged and allowed including the

21:53

LA County people encouraged and allowed Violent demonstrations in the street with you know thousands and thousands of people

22:03

No, no attempt was made to corral that or put a stop to it or even caution those people

22:09

And meanwhile churches are forbidden to gather and at one point the restrictions even said

22:16

People can't gather in private homes for prayer meetings even So we said we have to obey

22:22

God rather than men and we're not gonna forsake the assembling of ourselves together and The Lord has blessed us and it's been in many ways the hardest year but the best year in the history of Grace Church and John is over 80 years old and now he's called to fight yet another battle basically

22:40

Standing kind of as a point man for most of evangelicalism that wants to push back on that.

22:46

How has this affected him? It's it's actually invigorated him I think you know he

22:53

He I I don't think it's been a negative result for him he

22:59

He sees the importance of it John's insights on things like this are remarkable.

23:05

I mean he was he saw the need and and Was determined to respond correctly before most of the elders saw it it did take some

23:14

Persuasion to get all the elders on the same page Before we reopened the church, but You know

23:21

John has time has proven John right on every decision He's made in the midst of it and I think it's probably one of those episodes that if the

23:30

Lord doesn't return 150 years from now people are going to be writing about and Talking about John's courage in the midst of this

23:39

Pandemic the yeah the Over the years I've heard a number of teachings from Grace Community Church about civil disobedience resisting tyranny

23:49

It seems as if at least from somebody who sits in the cheap seats and was watching this from a distance It seems as if there was a little bit of a shift or a change in the elders position

23:58

John's position regarding civil disobedience and when pushing back against tyranny is a is is okay

24:04

He has said in the past that the American Revolution would have been a sinful war simply because it was a rebellion against legitimate authority not a position taken by All of Christianity obviously highly controversial among some sectors

24:17

Was there a change and in what ways was there a change or did this just crystallize a perspective make it more nuanced?

24:25

How was that fleshed out? Yeah, I can only tell you in my own thinking and I would say I'd have to say yes I think there was a change and I wrote about it on my blog.

24:32

It's still there team pyro blog spot calm team pyro one word

24:38

Dot blog spot calm and it's the most recent blog post. It's there I don't blog anymore, but occasionally

24:44

I put something up and the last thing I did was a Q &A about the elders decision to open the church and That's one of the questions as your position on this changed and my answer is well, yes, and no, yes

24:57

And no, I still believe you know Romans 13 is generally binding that you have to obey legitimate authority, but Legitimate authority is defined by the realm in which

25:08

The the authority has governance and Jesus own words make it clear that there is a distinction

25:16

Between the kingdom of Caesar and the kingdom of Christ and we are to render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to Christ What belongs to Christ and Caesar has shown?

25:27

an Unstoppable tendency throughout church history. This is not something new in America, but throughout church history there's been a tendency for Caesar to want to intrude into the things that are

25:37

God and gods and control that and this is another example of that and in America of all places where constitutionally the government was established with safeguards to keep

25:49

Caesar from intruding into the domain of Christ and All of that has been turned on its head now so that the all the rules governing separation of church and state are used against the church and Caesar is constantly intruding into the things that are

26:06

Christ's and yet. I think there are some legitimate Differences that people that good

26:12

Christians might have about Determining you know how much authority does

26:19

Caesar have to make judgments in matters of? Health and safety like we we would we would yield obviously to the fire codes in unless the fire codes began to be used

26:31

Against the church to try to shut us down and that was the case here after such a long

26:38

Quarantine and we discussed this on the night that we knew the quarantine was coming and we discussed what to do The thing was how long do we obey this and in our minds that night?

26:48

It was inconceivable that this could go any longer than six weeks But we said even then if it does we're gonna have to revisit this and it did and we revisited it and we concluded based on the changing rules that in in consistent way that they were being enforced and and the fact that they were increasingly focusing on the church while You know

27:12

Walmart gets to stay open Costco gets to stay open the gas stations you That's just as much exposure to the potential virus

27:22

Why is it that most of the noise and effort that the government was making to try to keep things?

27:30

You know clamped down. Why was it that most of it was focused on the church? Why is it that in Canada for example you have men thrown in prison for?

27:39

Preaching in their church while child molesters are being turned out of prison Because there's too much danger that they might get kovat in prison

27:47

It's it seems to me a no -brainer and very clear that this is if not conscious and deliberate it is a kind of satanically motivated

27:59

Effort to target the church in particular and I realize it targets more than the church but it still is persecution against the church and so it puts us into the same position that the

28:11

Apostle Peter was when they threw him in jail and the Angel came and opened the gates of the jail. Let him out.

28:16

Is he supposed to say then? No, no Caesar told me I have to stay in jail. So I have to go with that Because that's a legitimate, you know, that's the realm of Caesar.

28:26

He was right to leave jail at the behest of that angel because Caesar had overstepped

28:34

The the boundaries of his rightful authority and we came to the conclusion that that is the case here and now look at it more than a year later

28:43

Almost a year after we reopened Grace Church It seems to me that subsequent events have totally vindicated us.

28:50

There has not been a massive Outbreak of deaths and serious illness at Grace Church and we continue to worship and we're going to continue to worship and I Think it's been the right thing for us to do

29:05

Any questions on the cigars or Grace Community Church? I never thought I would say that sentence.

29:11

Yes Not that I'm aware of and I'm fairly certain that Although this is going to go through some federal courts if the county doesn't drop it

29:21

There's a possibility the county will drop it because having been charged a million and a half dollars for their

29:27

Mishandling of a case of another church. They've done the same thing with us the likelihood that they'll lose and be fined

29:32

Seems fairly high, but if they drop the case, then they won't have to repay our

29:38

Legal fees so they might drop it but if they don't if they press it it will go through federal courts all the way ultimately to the

29:45

Supreme Court because the issue is About you know constitutional freedoms the right to assemble and the right to worship

29:51

Has the government unfairly restricted that and I think most conscious sentient people

29:58

Looking at the past year have to say it's kind of hard to make the argument that everything the government has

30:06

Tried to restrict the church with is is fair and safe, so I think they're doomed to lose the case

30:12

But if they press it it will go through the federal courts, and I expect that ultimately the Supreme Court Which is which is you know tasked specifically with safeguarding our

30:25

Constitutional freedoms, I don't see how they could rule against us no to my knowledge the

30:35

In fact the county government has been they were scolded by the court the the

30:41

The judge finally told them leave this church alone. You've brought you know complaints against them

30:48

It'd been I think at least four or five times Enough this is a constitutional issue and let it be settled before you keep pounding this church with threats

30:58

And whatever and I think the government did pretty much back off at that point

31:03

I think we've been able to to worship mostly unmolested for a brief time they were sending

31:09

Health Department officials to Watch and take notes and write down every infraction.

31:15

They thought they saw But I don't think they're doing that anymore if they are they're much better at hiding it

31:58

Yeah, that's a great question Right that's a great question at that time hasn't come yet mainly because So much in the media is

32:11

Calculated deliberately to stir those fears and a lot of the people who who suffer from fear the worst are

32:20

Older people who are watching the news and living in terror, and they are they're victims more than they are you know malicious

32:29

Church avoiders, you know so let's let's wait till the whole thing is died down. I think if if people

32:37

Once the restrictions are all lifted and people people say I'm still not coming back to church, then we're going to have to deal with that.

32:48

Yes Well, I've tried to be patient.

33:27

You know with I have friends who in different churches have have been more more willing to submit to the government and and regard these restrictions as You know maybe prudent at least

33:45

And I so far. I haven't scolded them or whatever. I've seen it as a partly a matter of Christian Liberty I think it's easy in this climate to be

33:56

Confused and fooled by it, so it isn't something I would deal with harshly yet But like I said once all of the restrictions are lifted

34:06

It's going to be a different thing, and you'll see if there are people who say well. I'm still not coming back

34:12

Then you know that's going to have to be dealt with pastors who haven't opened their churches or Even those who have you know some of them militantly defended the government restrictions

34:25

I think they're going to be sorry because I think they have lost credibility and The confidence of their people

34:33

Because not everybody in their church is going to feel that way it works the other way as well There are people in our church who think there are people who have been members of Grace Church Who probably think that we've done the wrong thing by opening up and some of them may not come back either?

34:46

It surprised me that an issue like this which I didn't see coming nobody saw coming Would be such a divisive issue in the church.

34:54

That's not you know what I saw might Split churches, so it's a new phenomenon and not an easy one to deal with as you look ahead

35:06

But I've tried to be patient with people who hold other views But I'm not going to back off on the fact.

35:11

This is what we believe and this is what we're doing I didn't hear that the vaccine oh

35:38

Yeah again, that's one of those things that I think there are There may be legitimate reasons on both sides of of the thing.

35:46

I am I'm not Vaccinated not going to be vaccinated because I had a case of kovat at Christmas It was short for me.

35:54

It only lasted three or four days, and it wasn't serious, but I have natural immunity so I'm not going to take a untested

36:01

Vaccine, but I'm not generally an anti -vaxxer and in fact the history of vaccines in America Go back to the

36:08

Puritan era and the first person who was a strong advocate for Vaccinations was

36:14

Cotton Mather the very conservative Puritan pastor who read voraciously scientific literature and Discovered some literature that suggested that a vaccination could stop smallpox

36:36

Pandemics and those came in cycles They were predictable like every three years or so and so he persuaded lots of people in Boston to get

36:45

Vaccinated against smallpox and it averted the that year's smallpox outbreak and that's one of the things that history remembers

36:55

Cotton Mather as being heroic for because he foresaw that and and Urged it and and all that it was the right thing the irony is that the next generation

37:06

It was a smallpox vaccination that killed Jonathan Edwards his grandson No Cotton Mather's grandfather

37:13

Cotton Mather was a contemporary of Solomon Stoddard who was Oh Solomon's grandfather to to Jonathan Edwards, but Edwards died of a vaccine because they weren't

37:26

Well, I won't go into all the vaccine stuff But he was he was physically weak and the kind of vaccine they were using in those days wasn't as safe as smallpox vaccination vaccinations are today

37:37

Okay, let's take one more Peter Yes Yeah, good question.

37:59

I think Spurgeon was absolutely right. It's almost Irrefutable when you read it wasn't just Spurgeon, but his friend

38:06

Schindler who wrote those two articles on the downgrade and when you read his recounting of the cycles of heresy that have hit the church steadily and predictably ever since the

38:19

Protestant Reformation and even before that You see that there is a pattern there really is a discernible pattern where Liberalism in the form of socinianism or Unitarianism or deism or these are all basically rooted in the same humanistic ideas and it's resurfaces really every 10 or 15 years with regularity and Sometimes the split that results is worse and more profound than others probably the worst the most the most the biggest sea change that ever resulted from a

38:58

Downgrade was after Spurgeon died modernism destroyed every major mainstream denomination the

39:07

Presbyterians the Methodists You know, they all went liberal and even a lot of the

39:13

Baptists the Southern Baptists kind of tried to survive but now they're teetering on the brink again, and I honestly think that the social justice issue, which you guys are studying next year with with Daryl and Virgil the social justice issue is simply it's a it's a

39:31

Scaled down version of the emerging church movement that that was vying for attention 15 20 years ago.

39:39

They were all about social justice as well, but it's a it's a Trojan horse for theological liberalism and It's it's gonna leave a big mark.

39:51

It's gonna split I think the Southern Baptists this time, but what happens typically in history is when there's a downgrade like that there's also always also a remnant that emerges from that a truly evangelical remnant who

40:07

Rediscover the gospel and recommit to it and the growth of the church always happens in These churches that come out of the remnant the liberal church has always fade and die.

40:18

They don't always go completely away They still are populated with a few people their influence is down.

40:24

They keep teaching their bad ideas and eventually Those infiltrate the offspring of the remnant church and it goes bad and then the same cycle happens over and over again

40:35

So that's what I think is on the horizon We're about to see a massive split in evangelicalism these two large

40:41

Organizations that started in the wake of the emerging church movement together for the gospel and the gospel coalition

40:47

Both of them devoted their last national conferences to the social justice issue And as a result, both of them have been moving further and further away from their founding principles they're talking about social justice now rather than the gospel and and I think they'll come in the

41:05

Generations that follows a new core of Christians a smaller number than the then large evangelicalism looks like today, but the remnant who will stay convinced and and devoted to the gospel and the future of church growth will

41:22

Will dwell with them and I'm not discouraged by it. It's it's disturbing to watch and it

41:29

It's frustrating when it affects people you love and churches that like even my alma mater

41:35

Moody Bible Institute Which managed to stay evangelical for more than a hundred years has sold out

41:41

Completely to the social justice liberalizing themes, and I don't know that you'd find anyone teaching at Moody Bible Institute anymore who still holds to the core truths of the gospel in the way they did just 20 years ago, and I think that institution is probably unrecoverable and that always happens to schools and churches

42:06

Almost universally like I said the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London is the only church I can name that has remained evangelical for 350 years

42:16

In earthly institutions human institutions always go liberal, but the new ones come out of the mess

42:23

So I'm not a pessimist. I'm a Calvinist And and and I know that the gates of hell won't prevail against the church

42:34

So I'm not discouraged not utterly discouraged by it, but it is frustrating to watch I Hope that you feel like you have been benefited by being here these last couple of days.

42:43

This has been fantastic so Phil until you keep your word and come back again for the next set of sessions on Spurgeon Let us give you a hearty.