Apologetics Live Round two with a Roman Catholic HD 720p

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This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the

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Christian Podcast. This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick.

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Alright, Matt Slick from CARM .org, Andrew Rappaport with Striving Fraternity.

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We are here at Apologetics Live to answer your apologetics questions. Now, we've had an interesting week,

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I think both of us, but I want to start by letting you folks know that this is available on podcast now.

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For those who want to hear last week's, that's already out. We're going to probably put two out this upcoming week so we can catch up.

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And we're able to do that, you just search for Apologetics Live on whatever podcast app you have and you will be able to get that in audio form automatically downloaded.

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And so we are going to be working on giving some giveaways as well. Matt is going to be having his newest book, well actually no, came out a week later.

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He had a second new book, Atheistica, is a book about atheists having their own island.

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Island nation. Yeah, island nation. Yeah, they want to rule themselves and I don't make them look like morons or anything like that.

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But we just deal with philosophical issues and that's all. What do good people think?

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So there's going to be a couple of ways for Christians who would like to work on a podcast introduction or an introduction for the show.

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We're going to give a copy away to whoever comes up with the best intro. For atheists, well, if you come in, we're going to be given maybe one way by the end of the month or so to the best atheist caller, or I guess you wouldn't really be a caller here, but we want to answer your apologetics questions.

02:17

Now, Matt, this week, you know, because you were involved a little bit on Facebook, but on Twitter, we had a war that was going on with a guy who, an atheist, who was basically challenging you to a debate.

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I invited him here. He was? Okay. He was, but then he, well, two guys actually, one who wrote a 27 ,000 word article, but he actually just wanted to build a platform for himself so he can sell a new book.

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He's right. 27 ,000 word article. Yeah. Yeah. All about your tag argument.

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Wow. I think my novella Atheistico is 25 ,000. I mean, think about it.

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The article is this big. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

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All right. So, and he thought we'd have time to read it and interact. I'll read it.

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No, he's from the United States. We'll cut him some slack. It is one in the morning for him. Yeah. If he can't make it, he can't make it, but I'm not reading a 27 ,000 word article.

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Not happening. I got too many things to do. Now, the one guy wanted to, he wanted to debate me on things, first off, that I never said.

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First off, it was Anthony Silvestro that said some of the claims he said. There were some that you said that he wanted me to argue as if I said them, and there were things

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I hadn't researched, so I wasn't about to debate things I haven't researched. But it was an interesting thing because he kept moving the goalposts.

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Every time I agreed with something, he, like, for him coming on here and discussing with you, he then said, no, it has to be on his show.

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And then it couldn't, you know, it had to be on different things. And, you know, it's a thing where now what we see is he's doing what's called gaslighting, where he just keeps telling people that I'm running away from a debate when he keeps changing the topics of the debate.

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And he's convincing all his folks that, you know, like, look, he's running. I'm not running. I just am waiting for a debate topic that we can agree on the terms.

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That's an important thing. You've had several debates where they've gone back and forth. I remember with Matt Delhonte, you guys went back and forth for a while until you can come to a debate topic.

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I know the, and that actually, by the way, was two years ago, I think today.

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Really? Yeah. I guess it was. That was an interesting time too, because I remember that debate.

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Well, I don't know if you, wait, you weren't there, were you? I was there. Yep. I was there for both David Smalley and Matt Delhonte.

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I remember what happened outside the second venue that night when I was so tired. Remember that?

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Yeah. That's when you were, you actually, I think, were ready to just collapse.

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Yeah. I was so in, I was so tired.

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I remember that. I remember being outside there. Just, I could have gone to sleep. And maybe it was something

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I ate, because we had eaten just shortly before. And then maybe it was something in that food.

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I don't know. But I had trouble staying awake. It was like someone drugged it. I'm not saying they did.

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And then I remember when Matt Delhonte was actually given his presentation as he went first.

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I remember I had trouble focusing. I had trouble staying awake. I could have put my head down. I did not.

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But I was afraid if I did put my head down just to rest for five seconds, I would have gone to sleep. And I remember that.

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And then when it was my turn to get up and speak, I was wide awake. Weirdest thing. Never had that happen in any debates before, but that's what happened.

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Well, look, you did two debates back to back. David Smalley one night. Then it was

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Matt Delhonte the next night. No big deal. They only had to prepare for one. And then you had to prepare for two different debates.

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That's okay. I think it was one of those days, a jet lag. There was no jet lag, really.

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Just two -hour difference. And just food. And who knows? Maybe I was fighting something.

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But anyway, no big deal. But that's what happened there. So that's it.

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Yeah. So I thought it very interesting that we got to know some of the people who listened to the show, some of the atheists.

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And we do have a number of atheists that listen. But don't want to call in, by the way.

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They don't seem to have that courage. But you got to meet with some of them. I remember the one couple that was, the one woman that said she was really surprised how nice you were.

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Because she's so used to listening to you and disagreeing with you. Well, yeah.

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People, what they'll often do is think the worst of somebody. Particularly when you're an atheist.

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And the enemy, you have to vilify the enemy in order to justify hatred, condemnation, judgment.

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And then they find out I'm really a nice guy. And we get along great. No big deal.

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I mean, like Matt Delahunty and David Smalley, we got along fine before and after the debate. No big deal.

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Cracking jokes and having a good time. And people have said to me many times, like, man, I didn't think you'd be this nice of a guy.

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I go, sorry. Whatever. That's what it is. All right.

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So we got some questions that did come in through the Apologetics Live Facebook group.

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So there's some folks out there. And that's one place. We are going to look to do to get a

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Q &A going or a voicemail so people can leave messages. But you can join

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Apologetics Live if you want to, if you can't get in at the time to answer questions.

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So that's one thing you would be able to do. And we also should mention,

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Matt, that we're trying to do this. It's on YouTube.

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It's in podcasts. But we mentioned already one of your books. But you have a second one that came out recently as well, like a week after Atheistic, I believe.

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Yeah, it's an old book I just kind of forgot about and then resurrected and finished up. And it was a serious idea

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I have called Apologetics and. So Apologetics and Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses and Islam and Atheism.

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And so I resurrected it and finished it up. And it was only 90 percent done already.

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So it wasn't a big deal. And in fact, I just talked to a guy named Eli yesterday who was reading it.

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It was halfway through it. And the way I wrote this, the way

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I want to write more in this series, Apologetics and, is a very casual style. I literally sit here with this, my speech program.

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Word is open and I just start talking, you know, and I might say something like Christian theology. I might say something like, welcome to Apologetics and Christian theology.

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This is where, comma, hopefully, comma is what I do, where hopefully you'll learn what the basis of the

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Christian faith are. You can just flow along with me as I ramble through what we'll be discussing.

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Things like the Trinity, talking like that and just having fun. And so the guy said it was very, very, very easy to read, very easy to follow, flowed very nicely.

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So that's good. I'll be doing a series on those kind of things as well. That's the idea anyway. All right.

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And if folks want to come in and join, they can go to apologeticslive .com.

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There you can actually watch the video. You can also find the link to join. It'll be right there.

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And you can come in, ask your questions. But from the Apologetics Live group,

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Matt, here's the first question we have for you. Why do people believe Elijah went up in a chariot?

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He says the Bible says differently. I'll have to go look at it and see.

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It's not a question I've been asked for. Asked, let's see, where is that? Let's see.

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I think 2 Kings 2 is my guess. Elijah.

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No, Elijah. Elijah. So 2 Kings 2, 11, and as they went up, as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses, and fire separated the two of them.

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And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. So I guess that's the specific verse. Yeah. Verse 12.

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Segment is 212. The chariots of Israel and its horsemen. And he saw

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Elijah. That's why they say it's a chariot. Well, I guess the chariots maybe, as I'm looking at this verse, it seems like the chariots are separating

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Elijah from Elisha. So there were chariots there, but it says that he went up in a whirlwind.

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Yeah. I don't know that we know if he actually went up in chariots, per se.

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I could do an analysis on it and look at the King James. A lot of times people, what they'll do is they'll read something in the

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King James, and it'll give a different version. And it came to pass as they went on and talked that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire and parted them both asunder.

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And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Yeah, the whirlwinds took him up. So a chariot separated them, which would be interesting.

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Why would a chariot of fire separate them? That's a question I don't have an answer to. I'd like to know what that is about.

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But anyway, I don't know. Good question. Yeah. I mean,

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I could see the separation. I can see that being a thing because in the account, in the context, we ended up seeing that there was definitely an issue where Elisha wanted to be with Elijah when he was there.

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So he didn't want to leave him. So maybe that would be why there'd be a need for separation. Maybe. Maybe.

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Yeah. Well, it's a good question. That's something that, you know, I'm always ready to give too quick an answer, unless I'm on the radio or whatever, someplace like this.

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There's a basic possibility. But without further study, I don't know. It's a good question. There's lots of stuff like that in the

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Bible I don't have answers to. All right. So here's another one. And this one may be a little bit more sensitive.

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But the person said for you, I want to talk about remarriage, divorce, and adultery.

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I have some people in my Bible group who condemn others who are remarried.

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They say they're in perpetual sin and going to die and go to hell.

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They tell Christians this. This whole remarriage, divorce, adultery confuses me. I understand that we should never encourage divorce and remarriage in Christ.

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But I don't believe that people are going to hell, or do they? Yeah, that's a common, huge, excuse me, legalistic mistake a lot of people who don't understand grace seem to make.

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What they fail to understand is that, I'm looking for the reference, let's see,

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I think it's Jeremiah 3. No, if a husband divorces because, no, it's in Malachi.

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God issues a writ of divorce to Israel. Oh, yeah. Malachi. Yeah.

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And I'm trying to find that. But the problem is, if divorce is a sin, and yet God, so to speak, divorced

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Israel, what does that say about God? All divorce is not a sin, for example. If the spouse commits adultery and refuses to repent, the person has the freedom of divorce, not the obligation.

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I've written articles on that, about what the issues are of divorce, the grounds.

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I think it's abandonment, 1 Corinthians 7, and adultery, obviously. Jesus talks about that in Matthew 19.

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So those are the grounds. And since God himself issued a writ of divorce to Israel, it would make sense to say that divorce is not automatically a sin.

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And people who would say that you're in perpetual sin by staying in a condition where you've divorced and married somebody, whatever, and you're going to hell, that's just, that's idiocy.

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That's got to be called what it is. That's stupidity. Because we're not saved by our compliance with the law, whether it be divorce, laws, or whatever it is.

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And so this person who's saying this may not be a true convert, may be a false convert.

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I'm not saying is or isn't at that point, but may be a false convert, and who is putting legal requirements on the maintenance of salvation.

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And everybody is in perpetual sin one way or another. There are people who are so arrogant, like the guy

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I had on the radio today, basically said doesn't sin anymore. But he has, but he doesn't, you know, kind of, he can keep the law, he's pretty good at it.

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You know, such arrogance and foolishness is a continuation of a sinful attitude and nature.

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But pride, like humility, hides itself in the host so that the person doesn't see his own sin, or excuse me, doesn't see his own pride, doesn't see his own humility.

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Others see it, but the person who's guilty of it doesn't see it, generally speaking. But anyway, it's just, it's ridiculous for people to say that if you're in that kind of perpetual sin, then you're not saved.

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You're going to lose your salvation. It just means that you keep your salvation by compliance with the law, and that's a heresy.

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So, wrong. I've seen some of that also with homosexuality, where people say if someone has ever been a homosexual, as if they can never be saved.

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Not true. And that's, yeah, the same thing. I think same thing here. I know there's some people who would say that someone who's divorced and remarried could never be a pastor or deacon because it says they have to be a one -woman man.

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Yeah, but what that means is, anirmios gounikos, a man of one woman.

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That's what it means. And in the polygamous context, it seems to be one -woman men.

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Well, what happens if a man who's an elder of a church, his wife dies? Can he remarry? Well, by their strict literal interpretation of that, he couldn't even remarry.

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And if he did remarry, oh, he can't be an elder anymore. And also, they stubbed their toe on this verse when they don't realize it says you have to have children who believe.

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What if you only have one child? I'm sorry, you don't have children, plural, so you can't be an elder.

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So, you get way too legalistic on this stuff. And a lot of these legalists who think that they're compliant, the law is pretty good, will put burdens upon people they themselves cannot carry and don't seem to really understand what the true nature of grace is in these things.

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That's unfortunate. Yeah, I mean, that's the exact thing I always bring up. What if someone got divorced and never remarried?

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Could he then be a leader? Because he only had one wife, right? So, it's not the divorce issue.

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It's the remarriage issue then. And then what happens if you divorce someone when you're an unbeliever?

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And, I mean, you're a pagan. You're an atheist. You divorce. And then 10 years later, you become a hardcore believer.

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I mean, you are dedicated to the Lord. And then you marry a good, godly Christian woman. Oh, sorry, can't be a pastor because you were divorced back then.

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Well, you know, the old things are passed away. So, why are they holding this old bondage of legalistic yoke upon people?

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Plus, I don't use this very often, but Romans 7, 4 says,

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He who has died is freed from the law. We've died with Christ, Romans 6, 8. We've been crucified with Christ, Romans 6, 6.

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So, if we've died with Christ, we don't have to keep the law. Therefore, we're free. And then someone could make the case with that logic of going forward in that the issue of the divorce laws and decrees don't apply to us and that we could, under grace, move forward.

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But I'll tell you, a lot of pastors wouldn't be qualified for a lot of reasons, but better topic.

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I was going to say also, the person who said that this person is going to go to hell for divorcing, wouldn't that be under the category of the unforgivable sin?

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I mean, if that person cannot be forgiven for divorcing and remarrying, then, yeah, it's like, what's the point of –

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I mean, that's not the context of what the unforgivable sin is. The unforgivable sin in Matthew 12, 22 -32, saying that Jesus did

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His miracles by the power of the evil one. So, that's what this specifically is said to be, the unforgivable sin. But, yeah, it's just legalism.

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People in that condition don't understand the grace of God, and they need a good dose of biblical,

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Reformed theology so that they can stop being theological whannies. All right.

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So, Matt, this next question, you've dealt with this, and for folks who don't know, you do a live radio show five days a week,

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Monday through Friday. Kevin's client is back. Matt Slick Live is available on podcasts as well.

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They can just search for Christian Apologetics Research Ministry or search for Matt Slick, and you can get five days a week of Matt.

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But you have been dealing with this, I know, recently. This came up about a week or two ago. But here's another question for you.

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The person says, why do you think the Hebrew movement is picking up speed again, or did it never really go away?

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I only became aware of it when I was reading modern -day head coverings. How do we comfort those that we incite

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Galatians? Well, if they want to, it depends on the reason of doing what they want to do.

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If they want to hold to head coverings, hold to head coverings. What's the reason? If they want to do it because they want to honor

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God and they don't see it as a means by which they're pleasing him unto salvation, then fine.

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Now, I live here in Idaho, and there are Mennonites here. And every now and then, I'll be in the grocery store, and I'll see women with their heads in buns, a little covering over their head, and long dresses.

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And no big deal. And I've actually been to one of their churches, went and checked it out a couple, three years ago.

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And so I see this. I think once a month or so I might see it. But so what? If they want to wear head coverings, let them wear head coverings.

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Who cares? But the thing is, they should not obligate anybody else to do that.

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And in the context, I think it's, where was that, 1 Corinthians 12? 14, 14,

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I don't remember. 2 Corinthians 14. You know, the idea was concomitant with the issue of a woman going around appearing as though she was a loose woman.

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A lot of people don't know, but a man could divorce his wife if she let her hair down in public.

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And this is really important because the hair was a sensuous thing, and it was bundled up and recovered.

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And so when man and wife, you know, married, she would then let her hair down in the privacy of their bedroom, their home, whatever it would be.

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And so, like I said, letting her hair down was, in my research, a man could divorce her for that.

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And what's really interesting, to take a sidestep, when the, I believe it's Luke 15, where was it?

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When Simon said to Jesus, come and have dinner with them.

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And then, you know, all the people went over. And the woman came in, the prostitute, and let her hair down and touched his feet with her hair.

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I mean, we're talking, that's an incredible social moray that she broke.

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Incredible. And she risked her life for that, actually. She could have been stoned.

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But at any rate, so the hair was a big deal. And what the heck was I talking about that for? Well, the question was about the

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Hebrew movement. Oh, yeah. And so a lot of people, what they like is they don't understand the freedom.

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And some people do, and they want to do those kind of rituals because they think it makes them feel better, or they think it's what's proper.

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And that's fine, as long as it's not maintaining their salvation or not putting it upon anybody else, because they have no right to do that per Romans 14, 1 through 12.

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Period. That's it. And that's how it should be. They want to have their heads covering? Fine. They don't?

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Fine. That's the way it is. Shouldn't be a big deal. Yeah. And we have been seeing, you've dealt with, there was the black

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Hebrew Israelites, who now they just call themselves Hebrew Israelites. There's the Hebrew Roots movement that you've seen, you've interacted with.

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I guess the question is, is this on the rise? Has it always been an issue? Why do you think people are getting more into it lately?

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It's on the rise because our population is increasing, and also legalism is increasing, and people are not understanding the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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I believe that black Hebrew Israelite -ism is ultimately a racist movement, and it feeds on people's prides and prejudices.

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Believe it or not, black people can actually be prejudiced. How about that? So that's what

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I think it is. Plus, I think there's something to the effect of 2 Thessalonians 2.

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Now, I'm not saying this is the case, but I can't help but wonder when it says, in return of Christ, let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come about unless the apostasy comes first, et cetera.

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Now, verse 6, now you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed, for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.

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One is coming in accord with Satan, and it says in verse 11,

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God will send a deluding influence. I'm looking for the verse where it says he'll be removed, taken out of the way, apostasy.

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Anyway, 2 Thessalonians 2 has these phrases like this, and I just,

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I don't know. The rise of the cults, the rise of Islam, the rise and spread of Catholicism and its many heresies, the rise of legalistic groups, it's almost as though God has taken his hand away from mankind in a lot of ways, and spiritually, such that they're believing these lies and prejudices, legalism, failure to understand, and they're just growing, and I can't help but wonder if this is part and parcel of what

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God has allowed to occur to bring us to the end times, for the great and final day of judgment and things like that.

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I'm just blabbing, but that's something I've thought about. I've wanted to test the case. It's a pattern with all of them.

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You think about the Flat Earthers, or you think about the Black Hebrew Israelites, and most of these groups, they're such pride.

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I mean, they're so arrogantly like pride. It's not just that they have a pride issue.

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It's an aggressive pride that they end up having with a lot of these groups, and I think it plays into it.

26:32

Yeah, that's a good way to put it, aggressive pride. That's a good way to put it. So we got

26:39

Mr. Calvinist Klein came in. Hey, buddy. Umaz Josh. I don't know if he has a question.

26:46

I added him in. He can unmute himself. He should know how to do that.

26:53

No, Anonymous Guy says Catholicism is not heretical. Oh, yes, it is.

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It's extremely heretical. So Josh didn't come in, so I'm going to add

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Anonymous Guy. I think his name was James, actually. So let's see.

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Anonymous Guy, let me turn you up here. Okay. All right.

27:20

James, are you there? Okay. Are you able to hear me?

27:25

Am I coming in loud and clear? Louder. All right. So you and Matt talked last week about Catholicism and baptism, and you just made the statement that Matt responded to, that you said

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Catholicism is not heretical. However, Vatican II sect is heretical, but they're not

27:47

Catholic. So. And he's on the side of a cantus, that's all.

27:53

It doesn't matter, because even the side of a cantus are flaming heretics, as they hold to Trent.

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Do you have a question this week for us, James? Well, yeah. Hello. Hello again, fellas.

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Are you able to hear me? Am I coming in loud and clear? Yes. Yes. Okay, great.

28:15

Yeah. First off, I'd like to thank both of you for allowing me to engage in the discussion on the faith from last

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Thursday. I would, however, like a chance to respond and to clarify the

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Catholic position, since there seems to be some misunderstandings about it.

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So as you remember, Matt originally said, baptism now saves you.

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And 1 Peter 321 points to Noah's Ark. And he said, Noah's Ark is a prefigurement to, it points to Noah's Ark, but it's a prefigurement to Christ saving grace through his sacrifice for our sins on the cross.

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And I agreed with Matt because I said, yeah, this, this means, you know, from the

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Catholic perspective, this means that water baptism ultimately in the end points to Jesus as sacrifice for our sins.

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And therefore the grace from his sacrifice in it, you know, initially occurs at baptism, which is why the apostle

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Peter said, you know, quote, baptism now saves you unquote. Of course, as you remember,

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Matt objected because he said we're saved by faith alone and not faith plus works.

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And so Matt's response to me was that Noah and his family were saved by the

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Ark through quote, their faith alone, unquote. So, um, so I, you know,

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I, I responded by saying that in Catholicism, the act of receiving baptism is not a work done by, you know, the one that's receiving the baptism, but instead it's the work

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Jesus did for us on the cross and the grace that our Lord, you know, from our

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Lord's finished work is simply being applied at the moment one receives water baptism under the new covenant.

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And as you remember, Matt's response was, was to claim that baptism is an act done at a moment in time.

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And he compared it to a ceremony. So he attempted to claim it is, you know, a work we do.

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So before I continue, do, do you, do you agree, Matt? You know, so far with my account of last

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Thursday's discussion about one Peter three, uh, 2321. Yeah, that's pretty accurate.

30:40

Okay. So I have, I have a few responses to that about three responses, uh, maybe four.

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Firstly, let's do, let's just take them. I do that. Okay. You get the back. Okay, go ahead. One of them and then let

30:54

Matt respond. Okay. Firstly, let me explain why you're, you're not being consistent,

31:01

Matt. Okay. Again, you, you said that Noah and his family were saved from the floodwaters by the arc through, through a quote, their faith alone, unquote.

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So you yourself, well, well, hold on. I'm not finished. You, you asked me to go ahead and, and I'm trying to make my point, make my point and then you can respond.

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So you yourself would have to ignore the fact that numerous acts were done at numerous moments in time, whereby

31:33

Noah and his family built the arc and the act of walking upon the arc when the flood came and the act of closing the door behind them and the act of maintaining the arc and the act of, uh, you know, maintaining all the animals on the arc.

31:47

That's a lot of works done over a very long period of time. Um, so, you know, uh, well, if you want to respond, go ahead.

31:59

I was waiting for your conclusion. I know you want to say that your faith and your work saves you.

32:07

That's what you're trying to get at. Yeah. Uh, what I'm saying is that's a lot of works, but you said, uh, yeah, last

32:14

Thursday that they were saved by their faith alone. And so there wasn't any work before God by faith alone in Christ alone.

32:22

That's the position. All right. That's what the position is. You want to add works to it? Is that what, okay.

32:27

Is that what the, uh, old covenant, is that what the old Testament says that there were justified and saved by their faith alone?

32:34

Yeah. Uh, when Paul quotes, uh, the issue out of Romans chapter four, and Abraham believed

32:40

God righteousness. Yeah, he does. Romans four. Maybe you might want to check it out. Verse three. We're talking about Noah and the ark.

32:48

We're not talking about Abraham. He said at any place in the old Testament. No, I didn't say that.

32:54

I was specifically referring to Noah and the ark and the works that Noah did. Look, look, look, what you're trying to do is simply try meticulously construct something.

33:05

I'm sitting here literally waiting for you to get to the point while I'm doing other things on the computer, waiting for you to finish.

33:12

And I've heard these kinds of arguments. I just wish you just get to it. So we can have a dialogue on it because it's not a dialogue.

33:17

It's a monologue right now. You're trying to lay this out. You're trying to show that Noah was justified by his faith and his works, and you want to carry it over to now.

33:25

That's what you want to talk about. No, I'm simply pointing out that the fact is that he did do works.

33:32

There were works involved. And you're saying that, um, he was justified by his faith alone.

33:39

He was saved. You said he was saved by. Yeah. Justified as we're seen righteous before God.

33:48

Um, so he would, you're saying then he was seen righteous before God by his faith and what he did, he did his works.

33:54

No, you're the one that's claiming that he's justified by God, by his works you. But last Thursday you said that he was saved by his faith alone through the ark.

34:03

So, um, I'm simply pointing out that. Hold on. Um, I'm not sure what it is you're quoting from me last week.

34:11

I don't review everything. It's on video. James, you gotta let him finish.

34:25

Go ahead, Matt. Unless Matt froze.

34:33

Okay. Let me see. Oh, you guys hearing me at all?

34:43

Yeah. You're, you're frozen there for a minute. Um, let me just say that, uh, what

34:51

I teach is, and what the issue here is, you just need to get to the issue. We're justified by faith in Christ alone, not by faith and works.

35:00

What you're trying to do is make a big case out of the old Testament, go through all kinds of stuff in order to import it over into the new

35:06

Testament. Oh, you're wasting time. This is get to it, get to the issue. Okay.

35:12

Well, I just went ahead and mentioned that, you know, Noah did do works. He was, he wasn't saved by the ark through his, uh, faith alone.

35:20

Secondly, Matt, you use. Hold on. Let me respond to that. Because what you're trying to imply is that he's justified before God.

35:29

You say saved. You're not defining what you mean. He was saved from the flood by entering into that ark.

35:35

Absolutely. He was saved in the, by that, uh, the flood. It doesn't say that he was saved from his sins before God, by entering into the ark.

35:41

And this is what you're doing. You're equivocating when you switch around with his word, salvation. I didn't say anything about sin, save from sins.

35:51

You're the one that's, I didn't mention sins at all. You said that he was saved by the ark, by his faith alone.

36:00

Now, what did you mean by that? In the context, I can't respond to what you think I said, what you may be accurately quoting me.

36:06

I don't know. Why don't you just make a point? Because I really don't want to sit here and have to rehash something.

36:14

I see you say, I said, which means you're the one citing it back. And I don't know the context.

36:21

And I'm just going to argue about stuff. Why are you wasting your time this way? Why don't you move forward and get to the real issue?

36:28

You want to teach that we're justified by faith and works? No, no. I'm just pointing out that, uh, it required works.

36:36

And, uh, with regards to Noah being saved by the ark. Okay. Also, secondly, Matt, I would agree being saved by the ark.

36:44

You had to get into the ark. He built it. Yeah, no problem. Okay. Well, but that's not what you said last

36:49

Thursday, but that's not justified. Don't equivocate on those terms.

36:54

Matt pointed that out to you. It's not okay. Well, uh, go ahead.

37:03

That's all. It's not dealing with salvation, the way you were using it. You kept switching the terms equivocating.

37:09

Well, I'm just telling you, why don't we just get to the, uh, you know, get to the end of the race here. Come on. Well, it says right there in the very context of that scripture, that he was saved from the floodwaters through the ark.

37:21

And you said that he was saved by his faith alone through the ark.

37:28

Okay. So I can't respond to that. I don't remember exactly the whole context of what was going on.

37:37

Okay. Well, okay. Well, I made my point. And secondly, Matt, you use, uh, logic in, in your debates with atheists.

37:45

And, uh, I'm sure you agree that all roadmaps, blueprints, and schematics must use logic.

37:52

You know, for example, on a roadmap, logically, there is a starting point, which leads to one road, a road that leads to another road.

38:01

A roadmap is not logic. It's just a map. No, but you, but you have to use logic, correct?

38:07

In order to use a roadmap, correct? I don't think you understand what logic is.

38:13

Okay. That's just, we had to have that done. Just keep going. Keep going. Just. Okay.

38:19

So anyway, it on a roadmap, logically, there is a starting point, which leads to one road, then leads to another road.

38:28

Ultimately it leads to its final destination. Therefore, by using the same logic, we see water baptism under the new covenant being said to save.

38:41

Whereas baptism under the old covenant did not save. And we see this new baptism pointing to the ark, having saved

38:49

Noah and his family from a physical death, you know, from the flood waters. And we both agree that the arc saving

38:58

Noah's family, you know, it points to Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, which you've said before, it points to Jesus's sacrifice on the cross from a spirit, you know, from a spiritual death, saving us from a spiritual death.

39:13

Therefore, what we're seeing here is a starting point, which follows a roadmap, which ends at a final destination.

39:22

Logically, it therefore connects both the starting point to its final destination, just as a roadmap does.

39:30

And if you'd like to respond. Well, you need to work on analogies.

39:37

I'd go to the college local and I'd get a analogy one -on -one course and start to give it a shot, a roadmap.

39:46

So a roadmap needs logic and that's why baptism is necessary. Look, do you teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, water baptism?

39:58

That, that is the traditional Catholic belief, but the Vatican II site doesn't believe that.

40:04

Okay. I believe in baptism of desire. So I asked you a question. Do you believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation?

40:15

Yes. I'm a traditional Catholic. All right. So then you cannot be saved without water baptism.

40:21

Correct. Okay. So if someone is on their deathbed and tubes everywhere, can't even do hardly anything except nod his head, which

40:31

I've seen, he's working at a hospital and receives Christ and trusts in Christ and then dies, the person is going to get water to sprinkle him.

40:40

I have no problem with sprinkling. Goes to sprinkle him and he dies before he gets sprinkled. Does he go to heaven or hell?

40:46

He received Christ. He goes to hell. Okay. He goes to hell. Okay. So then you don't teach we're justified by faith.

40:55

Actually, I do teach that we're justified by faith because if you go to Galatians, it actually connects faith with baptism.

41:02

It says that faith is. Go ahead. When you have faith, is that when you believe is believing when you have faith?

41:13

Well, but no, it calls the believers to get baptized. So once somebody gets baptized, then they have the faith and I can show that from relations.

41:20

Hold on. So what, so you're saying, okay, so do you have faith when you believe you don't have the, the true faith, which you receive at baptism.

41:31

You can call it faith, but it's not the true faith. You don't have true faith, which is an internal belief system.

41:38

It says something like it until you get baptized. And when you get water sprinkled on you or immersed, whatever, get baptized with water.

41:44

That's when you have no real faith on that. Now you're really believing. Well, I'm just telling you what

41:51

Galatians says. If you'd like for me to go through Galatians with your position, go through your position because we're talking about faith and belief.

41:59

So, uh, you're so when you believe, is that when you have faith and you're saying, no, how do you have faith without belief or have belief without faith?

42:10

Incidentally, it's the same Greek word, pistos in the Greek. It's used. Do those, does the

42:15

Bible say that demons believe? Yeah, they have Ascension and that's

42:21

James 2, 19. Yeah. Okay. Well, you could say that people have a censure and then when they receive baptism, they have the true faith.

42:29

That makes no sense to us. Are you saying that water makes true faith occur in us?

42:37

That's what, well, if you'd like, I could go through, you know, the scriptures and I can show water baptized.

42:42

That's when true faith then suddenly comes into you, into you. That's when you have it. I'm telling you, that's what the

42:49

Bible says. So the answer for you is yes. So faith is like a substance then that comes into you at baptism.

42:59

It's a supernatural occurrence that occurs in someone whereby they receive the true faith. Yeah. You know what Ex Opera Operata is?

43:07

No, I don't. By the doing, it is done. So through the ceremony of baptism, when a person who believes in God and does all this stuff, you know, acknowledges, and then he's not a true believer, doesn't have that true faith.

43:20

It's just a censure, I guess. But by the doing, it is done Ex Opera Operata. But when the water is there, then that's when it all manifests.

43:28

And that's when he's really saved. So it's a ceremony that you have to go through to get saved. Well, we discussed that before, but it's not necessarily a ceremony because the thing is, you don't have to go through a ceremony to get water baptized.

43:44

Somebody could be on their deathbed and they don't have to do anything. They could believe in someone else could come along and baptize them.

43:51

And that person that's on their deathbed doesn't have to do anything. All they have is their belief. So, no, no, no, no, no.

43:58

If they die before water is applied to them, they go to hell. That's what you said. So their faith in Christ is not enough. Well, you didn't hear what

44:06

I just said. Somebody comes in and water baptizes them. So then when somebody comes in and water baptizes them, because that person believes, because obviously you're not going to baptize an unbeliever, right?

44:17

I said, they believe in Christ. You trusted in Christ and they just happened to die seconds before they get water baptized.

44:24

You said they go to hell. So you're denying that they're saved by faith in Christ. No, I'm telling you, and I'm, I'm trying to get to the scriptures.

44:33

If you would allow me to prove that they receive the faith when they get baptized, that believing is not the faith, but even prior to baptism.

44:43

We'll go to the scripture. I don't have any problem with Galatians. It's just that, but I'm going to have to put you on hold for just a sec. I'm going to have to put you on hold for just,

44:50

I have to go to the restroom. Um, I'll be back in about a minute or two. Sorry about that.

44:55

Okay. All right. That's a, that's an interesting one, Matt. That's a first for that. Hey, so let's, let's talk about what happened on your show today.

45:04

So you, on your radio show, you had a caller. Um, yeah, just a caller who said that he could keep the commandments and his salvation was dependent upon his ability to keep the law along with his faith in Christ.

45:17

Same thing. This guy's teaching is that, um, that salvation justification before God is by faith in Christ and something else and the ceremony of baptism.

45:27

And notice what he said. He said that if the person doesn't get water baptized before he believes in, uh, before he dies, he's trusted in Christ.

45:36

He's appealed to Christ by faith. He's, he's asking the Lord, seeking the Lord. He dies before.

45:42

Oh, sorry. You go to hell. That means he's not justified by faith. And the Bible says Romans three 28, Romans four, five,

45:47

Romans five, one, having therefore been justified by faith. And you're, you have faith when you believe. And then what's interesting is he wants to differentiate faith from belief.

45:57

How do you do that? Well, I might, the question I have in it, someone's asking this in the chat as well.

46:03

Uh, what about the thief on the cross? I mean, he had no opportunity. I think this is where you're kind of going, but there,

46:09

Christ said he would be in paradise. Yeah. The liar, or does baptism, that is not necessary for salvation.

46:19

That'd be a question I'm curious of. Well, I could see his answer. In fact, I'm going to use the restroom too. All right.

46:27

So I don't know if James is back. Um, but folks, if, uh, this is a good time to let you know that, uh, this is a podcast as part of the

46:37

Christian podcast community. If you are a podcaster and would like to be part of a Christian community of podcasters looking to help one another out, you can feel free to go there.

46:47

You, if you want to listen to all the podcasts, uh, this would be one of them. You can go to Christian Apollo, uh, sorry,

46:55

Christian podcast community, search for that. And you'd be able to listen to all of them.

47:02

One of which would be my podcast, the wrap report. That's one of the ones that is out there. And so you'd be able to, uh, have that one that you can listen to as well.

47:12

James, are you back yet? Okay. Are you able to hear me?

47:19

Yeah. So, so I, I agree. So Matt's Matt's not here for Chuck. He, he went and did the same thing you did.

47:25

Um, so I, I have a question for you while, while we wait for him to get back. So my question is, um, on the cross,

47:35

Jesus was there. There's a thief next to him. He says to the thief who had no opportunity to be baptized that today you will be with me in paradise.

47:45

So Jesus was saying that that thief who had no baptism was going to be in heaven with him.

47:53

So I guess my question is, did Jesus lie? Was he wrong?

48:00

Or does baptism is baptism not required for salvation? That's, that's a wonderful question.

48:07

And I would, I would love for Matt to be here. Matt's here. Good. Matt's back. Great. Can't hear your answer.

48:13

Good. Okay. Yeah. Did you hear that Matt about the thief on the cross?

48:20

I told him what I was going to ask you. I didn't go ahead. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

48:26

This, this example of the thief on the cross fails. Uh, first the law of baptism, which

48:31

Jesus made binding on every man became an obligation after Jesus's resurrection when

48:37

Jesus gave the command to preach the gospel and to baptize all nations in Matthew 28 20.

48:43

So the good thief died under the old law before the law of baptism became binding on everyone.

48:49

Second, the good thief did not. Okay. Can I continue?

48:54

And then you can respond. Well, you're just shut out because the covenant ends with the death of the testator.

49:00

He was eight, 13, he was nine, 15 to 16, not the resurrection. So it was under the old covenant. Um, it was with, he died because Jesus died first.

49:08

The new covenant was in effect. And that means that the thief died under the new covenant and then baptism would have been required.

49:15

You're wrong. Flat out. Okay. Can I respond?

49:21

If you can against scripture, give it a shot. Okay. Okay. I don't disagree with you that the supernatural miraculous effects of Jesus's death on the cross did bring about the new covenant, but he didn't institute it, make it binding under the law until after his resurrection.

49:39

The Bible says in Hebrews nine, look in the text for this reason, he is the meteor, but new covenant.

49:45

So that since a death has taken place, the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those have been called.

49:51

They received the promise of eternal inheritance for where covenant is. There must have necessarily be the death of the one who made it.

49:56

The death is the differentiation between the old new covenant, the death. You just died before the thief on the cross.

50:02

Therefore, the thief on the cross is under the new covenant. According to you, it'd be baptized, but he couldn't have been going to go to heaven because Jesus said he would be in that day.

50:10

You're wrong again. Okay. Well, maybe you didn't understand what I just said.

50:15

I actually agree with you. I'm telling you that I agree with you that the new covenant took effect with Jesus's death on the cross.

50:23

And I agreed with you last Thursday as well. But what I'm telling you is that the law of baptism didn't become binding until after Jesus's resurrection in Matthew 20, 20, 28 through 20, when he made it binding through his institution of the new covenant, through his word, when he breathed on the apostles and he told them to go out throughout all nations and baptize.

50:46

Therefore, it wasn't binding on anyone to get baptized is what I'm telling you.

50:52

Okay. So what you're trying to tell me then is that the words that Christ gave in the great commission was the binding formula for salvation.

51:04

Well, what I'm telling you is that he instituted it. In other words, I'm asking you a question.

51:09

Is it the binding formula for salvation? Because that's not what he said there. You're the one implying that.

51:17

Well, uh, the thing is, I believe that I'm correct when

51:23

I'm saying that Jesus instituted it. Uh, you can disagree, but second, the good, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

53:21

So it's an agreement, like a contract agreement between two parties. Covenants have rewards, stipulations, punishments, and things like that.

53:30

Yes, yes. Okay, so where is the issue of the

53:36

New Testament rewards, stipulations, covenant requirements found in the New Testament? Well, I could, okay,

53:43

I could get to that. Mark 16, 15 through 16 repeats what Matthew 28 through 27, 27,

53:51

I mean 27, and it speaks of the reward of salvation through baptism. So that would be a reward, salvation, obviously getting into heaven.

53:59

So it says, quote, and he, Jesus, said to them, go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.

54:07

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.

54:13

So Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, which indicates that the unbaptized will not be saved.

54:22

Now, I know you and many Protestants, you'll say, well, why didn't

54:28

Jesus say, he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be saved? Well, the answer is that those who don't believe are not going to get baptized anyway.

54:40

So it's not necessary to go ahead and mention baptism again. What's the point? And even if they, even if somebody was baptized that was an unbeliever, it would be an invalid baptism.

54:52

It would be meaningless. Did Jesus rise to the dead in the same body he died in? Yes. Okay.

55:01

So are you familiar with the issues of Mark 16, 9 through 20? I don't know.

55:08

Go ahead and mention it to me. It's not found in a lot of the early manuscripts, plus there's 17 suddenly new words right there in those 11 verses that don't appear any place in the entire gospel of Mark.

55:20

Plus we have an issue here that Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them in verse 12. It didn't appear in a different form.

55:26

He appeared in the same body he died in. So you realize if you have to go here for these issues, it's a weak part of the scriptures.

55:33

And not that I attacked the word of God, I defend the word of God, but this is just textual fact. So the fact that you go here is really interesting, but Mark 16, 16 says, the ones who believe and is baptized, would you agree that those who believe and go to church and love the

55:50

Lord Jesus Christ would also be saved? Yeah, I would say those that are baptized and they continue in the faith, yeah, they'll be saved.

55:58

The answer is no. You wouldn't say then that someone who trusts in Christ, loves the Lord God, and has trusted in him, you wouldn't say he's saved.

56:07

Yeah, I'd say he's saved. No, you wouldn't, because he's not been baptized. That's the thing about baptism there. You're the one who says that he has to be water baptized in order to be saved.

56:17

You're a heretic. You're the one who puts a requirement of a ceremony on salvation.

56:22

We are justified when we have faith, not justified when we get baptized. Never do you ever find any place at all where it says we're justified by baptism in water.

56:33

You find we're having therefore been justified by faith. You have faith when you have faith. You believe.

56:39

That's when you're justified, when you have faith. But you say no. You're not justified by faith when you believe. You're justified by faith when you get dunked in water.

56:46

So it's not justified by faith. You contradict the scripture. And the reason you do this is because as a set of a cantus, as a

56:53

Roman Catholic, because you hold to the false doctrines of the soteriological system of the Roman Catholic Church, you're not regenerate.

56:59

And because of this, you don't have the mind of Christ. You don't know what the gospel is, and you are seeking to make a work and a ceremony part of your salvation process.

57:08

I asked you if water baptism was necessary, and you said yes. That means that you cannot be justified by God, before God, by faith alone in Christ alone.

57:19

It has to be something and a ceremony you have to experience in order to be saved. That's what you teach.

57:25

You teach a false gospel, and it needs to be labeled for what it is. Okay.

57:32

Well, I was asked about the thief on the cross. I'd like to continue, if I may.

57:37

Sure. I showed you that you were wrong about that in your institution of baptism in the covenant sign there.

57:43

That when you went to Matthew 28, 18 through 20, it's just a declaration of the issue of that for the purpose of discipleship, not of salvation, not justification, which is what you implied, and you misapplied it.

57:55

You got any other place you want to go to? You know what I find interesting, Matt, before we move on, is he's giving you Scripture and an explanation of Scripture, but he's not quoting the church.

58:06

I didn't know that he can have a private interpretation. What he would be doing is quoting what the church says the

58:14

Bible means. At least he's trying to go with Scripture, and that's good, better than most Catholics.

58:20

It is. But he's also relying on private interpretation. He's not quoting the church when he gives that. That's actually incorrect,

58:27

Andrew. When I go ahead and give an explanation of a verse,

58:45

I'm doing it in the context of church's teachings. Obviously, that's the church's teachings, with regards to baptism, that baptism saves.

58:53

It's necessary for salvation. So, my second point with regards to the ... I'd like to continue.

59:00

I was asked a question about the thief on the cross. I'd like to continue. You know,

59:06

I'm not good with all these debates. I'm not like a professional debater or anything. So, when I'm trying to answer these questions, it's hard to, like when

59:14

I'm interrupted to ask questions, it breaks my concentration. Secondly, the good thief did not go to heaven on the day that Jesus was crucified.

59:24

Jesus himself did not go to heaven on that day. But instead, he went to what the

59:30

Apostles' Creed refers to as hell, but a more accurate term is Hades, which is comprised of two levels, the higher level being

59:37

Abraham's bosom and the lower level being Sheol. This, of course, is not the eternal hell, which is also called

59:44

Gehenna, I think that's how they pronounce it, or the lake of fire. But instead, it's

59:52

Abraham's bosom, and it's the waiting place of the just, of the righteous, of the

59:59

Old Testament, you know, the saints of the Old Testament. That's where the good thief went with Jesus on the day of his crucifixion.

01:00:07

Jesus referred to it, yeah, well, Jesus referred to it as paradise for two reasons.

01:00:14

First, because it's not a place of torment and suffering. And second, because Jesus would be there,

01:00:21

God himself would be there. And we see in Jesus in John 13 says, no one has ascended into heaven.

01:00:32

So, we know nobody went to heaven. You know, these people that lived under the Old Testament times prior to the new covenant.

01:00:42

So, nobody at that time had gone to heaven where the Father and the angels are.

01:00:48

No one went to heaven until after Jesus did. Jesus had primacy in all things.

01:00:54

As St. Paul says in Colossians 1 .18, Jesus didn't ascend into heaven until after his resurrection, as John 20 .17

01:01:03

proves. Petey No problem with that. No problem. Tom Yeah, so the good thief is not an example against the necessity of baptism for salvation.

01:01:13

Petey Was the thief safe from his sins without being baptized in water?

01:01:22

Tom Well, we know that, I don't know exactly if all those prior to the new covenant,

01:01:28

I mean, it wasn't binding on them, so I don't know. The thief, was the thief safe from his sins without being baptized?

01:01:38

Petey Okay, well, I'm trying, if you allow me to explain, I'm getting to the thief. I'm speaking of all those prior to the binding institution, because you've already admitted that Matthew, in Matthew, he actually instituted it.

01:01:50

So, I'm speaking of all those prior to that. Tom The purpose of discipleship, not salvation. Petey Well, that's your belief.

01:01:59

I believe it's to salvation. Hold on. You have to stop doing that. Matt has been very clear on things, and you keep trying to say that he believes something, that he corrects you and says he does not.

01:02:11

He said that the covenant came with the death of Christ. He made that abundantly clear.

01:02:17

So, for you to say that he was agreeing with your position is false. If you're going to -

01:02:24

Tom Andrew, actually, I agreed with Matt on his position.

01:02:30

And if you go back on the video - Petey Let me tackle him. Let me tackle him. Go ahead. Tom I agreed with Matt.

01:02:36

Andrew, I agreed with Matt on his position with regards to when the miraculous effect took supernatural effect of the new covenant took place.

01:02:43

If you go back on the video, you'll see that Matt agreed with me with regards to Matthew that Jesus did actually institute.

01:02:51

Petey You misrepresented me a few times. I wouldn't trust that. No offense meant.

01:02:56

But look, I asked you a question. Was the thief saved from his sins without being baptized?

01:03:04

It's either yes or it's no. Tom Well, personally, I would say no. As a traditional

01:03:10

Catholic, probably a lot of those in the Vatican II sect would say yes. Petey The thief was damned to hell? Tom No.

01:03:17

None of those that went to Abraham's bosom were damned to hell. And allow me to explain.

01:03:22

Petey Was he saved from his sins? Tom The thief was not saved in the sense of the new covenant whereby the gates were opened to -

01:03:33

Petey Wow. Was he saved from his sins without being baptized? Tom The thing is that, Matt, when you ask me a question, if you want me to answer, it's hard for me to answer you if you keep cutting into my answer.

01:03:45

Okay? Petey Your answer is long, convoluted, and lengthy. We'll do an experiment.

01:03:51

Watch this, everybody. I'm going to ask you a simple question. Okay? Was the thief saved from his sins without being water baptized?

01:03:59

Go. Tom I already answered that, and I told you that I believe that the thief needed to be water baptized.

01:04:07

So you're repeating a question that I answered. Petey If he needed to be water baptized, I agree.

01:04:13

He needed to be water baptized. He should have been. Okay, now here's a question. Different question. Was the thief saved from his sins without being water baptized?

01:04:23

Tom No. Personally, I do not believe that. Petey Okay. So no, then he was damned.

01:04:34

Tom No. If you allow me to explain, I mean, I could explain it for you. Petey Explain it. Tom If you allow me.

01:04:39

Petey Go ahead. Try it. Tom Okay. As a traditional Catholic, again, the Vatican II sect, and all of you

01:04:46

Protestants will probably disagree with this, but I believe as a traditional Catholic that all those saints that lived during the

01:04:55

Old Testament times that were in Abraham's bosom, I believe that they were all baptized either by Jesus himself or by his angels.

01:05:04

Or remember that we see in the Bible itself that they rose out of their graves. So I believe they could have been baptized then.

01:05:12

There were many opportunities for them to get water baptized. So I believe that they were water baptized before getting into heaven.

01:05:19

Now, again, you could disagree. Vatican II sect could disagree.

01:05:25

And I'm not saying you're wrong, because again, it wasn't necessarily binding onto them because they died prior to when it was made binding under the new covenant.

01:05:36

So if you say, if you Matt Slick says, if you say, well, he went to heaven and all the

01:05:45

Old Testament saints did eventually go to heaven, I'm not going to necessarily disagree with you. I'm just telling you my opinion.

01:05:51

My opinion, and I'm also telling you my opinion might be wrong. I'm asking you a question.

01:05:59

It's a yes or it's a no answer. Was the thief saved from his sins without being water baptized?

01:06:06

You're repeating a question I answered twice already. You said, so you believe they were baptized by Jesus and or the angels before getting into heaven.

01:06:15

In other words, you're pulling a rabbit out of your hat. You're saying something that the scriptures don't say.

01:06:21

You're just making things up, but I'm asking you, was the thief saved from his sins without being water baptized?

01:06:27

It's either yes or it's no. Well, I answered you twice. I told you, and I'll repeat it a third time.

01:06:34

I'll repeat it a third time. Which one is it? Yes or no? Matt, now you're better than this.

01:06:40

Come on, Matt. Now, the thing is I've repeated it. I'm said it twice. I'm going to repeat it a third time.

01:06:48

Personally, I believe that all of them were baptized either by Jesus or the angels or when they resurrect, when they not resurrected because it wasn't the actual resurrection other than your covenant, but when they rose out of it, they could have gotten baptized then.

01:07:06

I personally believe they were water baptized, but I might be wrong. Okay. So you just believe he's water baptized.

01:07:14

That's all. It doesn't say.

01:07:21

That's what you affirm. And since you've said the Bible doesn't say, you have no evidence for that. You're just assuming it.

01:07:30

Well, I'm assuming it based on John 3, 5, because Jesus says, unless a man is born of water in the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

01:07:39

Therefore, my opinion is that nobody gets into heaven unless they're water baptized. So the thief and the murderer on the cross left and right of him, they both were hurling insults at him, right?

01:07:57

Yes, they were. They both were deriding Christ. So it looks like that as Jesus was on the cross, this man actually became a believer.

01:08:07

So since he was insulting Christ, he wouldn't have gotten baptized. That doesn't work for you. You're just digging yourself a hole.

01:08:15

You got to stop the error. Look, the new covenant started with the death of Christ.

01:08:21

I gave you the exact references for that. I put it in the scriptures. You go to the end of Matthew, the great commission and say, this is the institution of baptism as a requirement for salvation.

01:08:31

It doesn't say that it says for discipleship. Okay. We took it out of context. We talk about the issue here of the thief on the cross.

01:08:41

And then you say you believe he was baptized. You have no evidence for that. You say the angels maybe did it. No evidence for this whatsoever.

01:08:49

You just say this. Maybe Jesus did it. Maybe the angels did it. I have John 3, 5. I have John 3, 5. No, you don't.

01:08:55

John 3, 5 doesn't say that the thief was baptized. John 3, 5 says that nobody gets into heaven.

01:09:03

Both the criminals were deriding Christ on the cross.

01:09:09

So he's deriding Christ. Do you think that means he was already baptized in Christ and trusted in him? There are many people that commit sin.

01:09:20

Oh brother. Okay. So what we're doing now is talking with someone who's just irrational. Okay.

01:09:26

So you have no evidence that he's baptized. You just believe it. When I showed that he was deriding Christ and I have all the fine exact references, but they were both hurling insults at him.

01:09:35

And you're saying, yeah, he was baptized. Oh, but he was backslidden. You know, you just go through such incredible lengths to deny the gospel and make people twice a child of hell as yourself.

01:09:51

You add. Okay. I'm responding to you now. When I asked you simple questions, you can't even answer simple questions.

01:10:01

You can say, I don't know. And that's perfectly legitimate. I don't have a problem if you say, well, I don't know. Okay. That's fair.

01:10:06

But there's only two possibilities in actuality. The thief was either water baptized, or it's not the case that the thief was water baptized.

01:10:13

We have no place in the word of God that says he was water baptized.

01:10:18

But because you hold to this position, you have to affirm that he was, even though nothing in it says so.

01:10:26

And he was deriding Christ before him. But you say he was a believer because he got baptized, but yet he's insulting

01:10:31

Christ. You make no sense whatsoever. You don't believe in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, because your

01:10:40

Roman Catholic church denies the true gospel and adds works of salvation.

01:10:46

And as Canon 9 of Trent says, in Canon of justification, if anyone were to say that by faith alone, someone is justified and no works are necessary.

01:11:01

Matt, you muted yourself accidentally. I do not know how

01:11:10

I muted myself accidentally. What's the last thing you heard? Sorry.

01:11:16

Last thing you said was. You hear Canon 9? Yeah, you're quoting that.

01:11:23

And Canon 9 says that if you teach that you're saved by faith alone in Christ alone, that kind of thing, having to be justified without works, then let them be anathema.

01:11:33

The Roman Catholic church is anti -Christ. The Roman Catholic church is anti -Christ because it teaches an anti -Christ gospel of works added to the faith that we have in Christ.

01:11:47

Galatians 5 refutes that. Romans 3, 4, 5 refute that. You have gone a long way.

01:11:54

I've been trying to be as patient as possible to listen to your heresies. You have gone a long way to try and show that the thief, among other things, was baptized when nothing in scripture says so.

01:12:04

You've exceeded what's written in the word of God. You've gone way beyond it. This is why you're lost.

01:12:11

Let me ask you, if you were to pray to Jesus and just trust in him alone for forgiveness of your sins, and you ask him to forgive you of all of your sins, would all your sins be forgiven?

01:12:30

Okay, did you just ask me a question if I simply believe in Jesus? Am I forgiven of my sins and that's all?

01:12:37

No, I didn't say that. I said if you were to pray to Jesus and ask him to forgive you of all of your sins, would he forgive you of all of your sins?

01:12:49

Well, it depends. Is a priest nearby where I could go to a priest for confession? Because the

01:12:54

Bible does speak about presbyters, and presbyters means priest, and it does speak about confession.

01:13:02

No, it doesn't. Presbyteros means elder. Episcopos means bishop. Diakonos means deacon. Well, there's

01:13:09

Greek scholars that would disagree with you. I've had four and a half years of Greek. I've been studying this for years. Now look, if you were to pray and ask

01:13:17

Jesus, and you ask him to forgive you of your sins, I'm just talking about you asking

01:13:24

Jesus to forgive you of your sins. You know, hypothetically, what's your first name?

01:13:30

James. James? James. Okay, James. James, let's say that you, you know, tonight, you, you know, there's no priest around, there's no whatever, you know, you just go into your room, whatever your situation is, you know, and you just start talking to Jesus.

01:13:46

You just pray to Jesus, and you ask him, you know, Jesus, you know, I'm not accusing you of being a big sinner. You're no more sinner than I am.

01:13:52

I mean, you know, you're prideful, stubborn, the basics, don't try to be flippant about it, but you know, you, me, whatever, we sin, and we go to Jesus, and you go to Jesus, and you ask him to forgive you of your sins.

01:14:05

Is he going to forgive you? Yes. Good. Now, if an unbeliever, by the work of the

01:14:14

Holy Spirit, John 6, 44, 665, being drawn, granted belief, Leviticus 1, 29, comes and he asks

01:14:20

Jesus to forgive him of his sins, are his sins forgiven? Did he get water baptized yet?

01:14:27

Not yet. He wants to. Then his sins are not forgiven. Okay. So then what you're saying is that faith in Christ, and asking

01:14:35

Jesus, who said, ask me anything in my name, and I will do it, John 14, 14, come to me, and I'll give you rest,

01:14:41

Matthew 11, 28. And Paul, who says, we maintain the amendment justified by faith apart from the works of the law,

01:14:46

Romans 3, 28, and to the one who does not work, but believes. His faith is credited as righteousness.

01:14:54

He does not work, doesn't do anything. His faith is credited as righteousness. You would say that such a man who has faith in Christ is not credited as righteousness.

01:15:04

No, not at all. That's your position. No, that's not my position. So the person who puts faith and trust and asks

01:15:10

Jesus to forgive him of his sins, is that faith credited as righteousness before him without being baptized? Well, I've already pointed out to you that true faith, and it's in Galatians.

01:15:21

Let's go to Galatians. Please don't put words in my mouth. I already pointed out to you that the

01:15:28

Bible itself says that true faith comes from baptism. In other words, it's not simply being a believer.

01:15:35

Where does true faith come from baptism? Show me where it says true faith comes from baptism.

01:15:41

I'm waiting. Okay. Okay, fine. The Bible teaches that believers receive the faith through baptism, okay?

01:15:48

They don't simply have the faith just by believing. That's why they're called, that's why believers are called to get baptized.

01:15:57

So in Galatians 3, I'm trying to answer you, Matt, but you really need to calm down because I'm trying to answer you.

01:16:05

Please stop interrupting me. In Galatians 3, we see the link between receiving the faith and receiving baptism.

01:16:13

We see that one first receives the faith through baptism.

01:16:19

So in Galatians 3, 23, St. Paul says, but before the faith came, and in verse 24, he says, that we may be justified by faith.

01:16:34

And then in 25, verse 25, he says, for you are all the children of God by faith in Christ.

01:16:43

So you agree with all that, right? Wait, I'm trying to understand what it is you're trying to say.

01:16:51

Galatians 3, 22 is where you started? Correct. I'm sorry. Galatians 3, 23.

01:16:59

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith, which was later to be revealed, the

01:17:07

Old Testament law, right? Therefore, the law has become a tutor to lead us to Christ, that Old Testament law, so that we might be justified by faith.

01:17:20

Okay, so you agree with all that, right? Yeah, we're justified by faith. You don't. Well, hold on, because St.

01:17:28

Paul explains exactly what he means by, quote, faith in Christ, quote, in the very next verse, which is verse 27.

01:17:38

Galatians 3, 27. No, the very next verse is verse 27. Actually, I already spoke about it in verse 25.

01:17:48

Let me read it, though. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor, no longer under the law.

01:17:54

For you are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

01:18:01

Yeah? Exactly. So, in Galatians 3, 27, he says, quote, for as many of you have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ, for you are all now one in Christ.

01:18:22

He goes on by saying, for you are now one in Christ. This clearly is teaching that…

01:18:31

Can I ask you a question? Please don't interrupt me. I'm trying to make a point. This clearly is teaching that it is by the means of baptism that one receives the faith.

01:18:43

That's why baptism has been since, you know, apostolic times. I'm sure, I'm guessing you've studied, you know, the early church fathers and so forth.

01:18:51

Since apostolic times, baptism has been called the sacrament of the faith.

01:18:57

So, without, you know, without baptism, one does not have the faith and cannot be saved.

01:19:07

What does it mean to be clothed with Christ or to put on Christ? What does that mean? Are you there?

01:19:23

He's muted for some reason. Did he mute himself? No, Henson actually muted him for some reason.

01:19:32

Henson, please don't do that. Who muted him? Henson, this one guy here in the middle.

01:19:39

Why would he do that? I don't know, but I saw that. Don't do that. We'll kick you out if you do that.

01:19:47

Sorry about that, James. Go ahead. Okay, thank you. Well, in Galatians 3 .7,

01:19:53

we see that it only refers to those who have been baptized as putting on Christ. It doesn't say that those who were believers prior to being baptized have put on Christ.

01:20:05

So, obviously, only those who have been water baptized have put on Christ. And he goes on to say that now, well, it's a change from the man, the flesh man, you know, what's happening is you're going from the humanity of conscious, of intellect and all that stuff.

01:20:31

And you're going into the divinity of, let me finish talking. You ask me a question and you keep interrupting me.

01:20:36

At least you allow me to explain. You go on forever. It's hard to wait. You say so many things. Then why ask me a question?

01:20:43

Why ask me a question to explain it? Just quickly and efficiently. He asks you yes, no questions.

01:20:48

You go on for five minutes. That wasn't it. When you ask to explain. I didn't ask him to know about that. Andrew, Andrew. Go ahead.

01:20:54

Andrew, Andrew. When he asked me to explain it, is that a yes or no question?

01:21:00

It's not a yes or no question. I actually explained it. Please go ahead. Other ones. He's already shown that you can't answer simple questions.

01:21:06

Answer quickly. Get right to the point. Stop going off on different things. Just answer it, please.

01:21:12

What does it mean to be clothed with Christ? That was my question. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah.

01:21:20

So I believe that with regards to that, you're putting on Christ. What you're doing is there's a remission of the sins that's happening.

01:21:29

There's the grace of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is applied to you.

01:21:36

In other words, the saving grace is applied to you because you were obedient in that you went ahead and submitted to the water baptism.

01:21:43

And now you're seen righteous and you're justified before Christ because of that obedience to him.

01:21:50

And I could prove it. I mean, I didn't finish going on with regards to the other scriptures.

01:21:59

I could prove what I said. Go ahead. James, you say a whole bunch.

01:22:04

I just want to respond to the set, you know, smaller chunks. Okay. The issue of a tutor that leads us to Christ.

01:22:12

Do you know what that is? The tutor in the culture of the time to which

01:22:18

Paul is referring? Well, I would say that it was probably the

01:22:28

Holy Spirit. I would say that it's the Holy Spirit guiding us to Christ. Okay. In the Roman culture of the time, a tutor was somebody who was usually a slave and the owner of the house and the owner of the slaves would entrust the children to the slaves as an instructor, as a tutor.

01:22:48

This would happen often between the age of six and seven until puberty. Oh, that's good to know.

01:22:54

I didn't know that. It is. You can just check it out. It has to do with the word there and stuff like that.

01:23:00

We learn stuff from each other. And in Roman society, when a child who had undergone the care of a tutor had reached that age of maturity where he was, so to speak,

01:23:12

I'll use the word graduate. Guess what he was given at that point?

01:23:19

It was a robe or a toga that he would be clothed as a signification in that culture of the completeness of his tutoring and his teaching and that he had graduated.

01:23:38

And what Paul is doing most probably is alluding to this kind of a thing here. So when you say...

01:23:45

Well, that's Matt Slick's interpretation. He's using eisegesis in regards to this. I'm just going by the word of what the scripture says.

01:23:54

Actually, it's from Wolver J .F. Zuckroy, the

01:24:00

Bible Knowledge Commentary. It's not just me reading into it. Is that Protestant? Is that a

01:24:06

Protestant? Don't commit the genetic fallacy and say because it's Protestant that therefore it can't be trusted.

01:24:11

If you're going to do that, I'm going to say anything and everything that comes from the Catholic mouth can't be trusted.

01:24:17

Be careful what you wish for because it'll bite you in the rear. You need to do some homework.

01:24:22

What you should do is say, interesting, let me go check it out. That's fair. Go see if there was anything like this.

01:24:28

You need to read the context, so you understand what's going on. I did the homework.

01:24:39

Okay. Well, with all of this, we've kind of deviated from what I was talking about. 1 Peter 3 .21,

01:24:47

I had several points I wanted to make and we've kind of deviated with that with the thief on the cross and so forth.

01:24:53

I'd like to continue. No, I don't know if I want to because this is a criticism is that you just want to go on and on and on and on and talk for long periods of time and you don't want anybody to really talk to you and say, well, wait a minute.

01:25:06

I can't agree with that as you build your case. It's like, that's not agree. I don't agree. You don't want that to happen. You just want to have a platform for a half hour to say whatever you want to say.

01:25:15

Also, Matt, we do have other people here who've been waiting and I don't want to be rude to them as either.

01:25:21

I mean, James has been here for an hour last week and over an hour this week. Oh yeah. I didn't know that.

01:25:27

I'm sorry about that. Yeah. I didn't realize there were other people waiting. If there are other people waiting, can we continue this next

01:25:34

Thursday? Maybe not. Maybe the week after. Yeah. The week after we got some special plan for next

01:25:41

Thursday. Sounds great. Sounds great. Okay. Sounds great. James, before you go, look, you and I disagree and we may step over a little bit.

01:25:50

I think maybe I did over you a little bit more than you did to me, but the thing is I appreciate your desire for politeness to stick with the word.

01:25:57

I appreciate that. Okay. I mean, I do. And you know what? I appreciate you too,

01:26:02

Matt, because I really enjoy watching the debates you have against atheists because I think, and you look at the debate

01:26:10

Trent Horn had recently with that guy. I can't remember his name, but Dan Barkley?

01:26:20

No, no, no. Dan something, I think, but I think so. Correct. And he used your argument and I think that's a very good argument against atheism.

01:26:33

Who's the he, the other person? Trent Horn. He's from Catholic Answers, Catholic Answers Live.

01:26:41

Trent Horn. Okay. And what argument did he use? The tag? Correct.

01:26:47

Okay. The logical fallacies of atheism. Correct. Okay.

01:26:53

All right. Well, thanks. All right. So next, who is in here?

01:26:59

Although I almost want to, you know, Jerry had a great question for you, Matt is,

01:27:04

I'll ask his one question just for fun, and then we'll get to JMD.

01:27:11

His question was, do you have a second blessing of, you know, with, of grace and with the patience you bestow upon people?

01:27:20

Well, to be honest, I, to be honest, I don't think I was as patient with him as I should have been.

01:27:28

So yeah, if you think I'm patient, then great. I got some land I want to sell you in Florida.

01:27:36

I could learn, always learn to be better and patient. I, it's something I've always had to work on. I just focus on what he's saying, going, okay, could

01:27:42

I listen? You know, point one, point two, point three. Now in a formal debate, you just wait and then you write your notes out and you go back to respond.

01:27:50

But here, let's have a discussion. So part of the thing is, and folks don't even understand is that you're trying to think of how to respond to this.

01:28:00

And they add another thing is how to respond to that. And, and, and then it becomes too much to keep track of in your mind.

01:28:07

So there's advantages and disadvantages to both approaches, a formal debate versus more of an interaction, things like this.

01:28:13

But I, in my opinion, I don't think James was able to answer very directly. Yeah. Well, I've added

01:28:18

JMD Apologetics. He had a question for you as well. You've unmuted yourself.

01:28:24

Let me make sure your audio is, is up. It is. So go ahead. Yeah. Hey man,

01:28:30

I called into your show probably a month ago. Oh brother, here goes the show.

01:28:37

I don't know if he got my last email, but, um, you know, who's Steve. Wait a second. Let me see.

01:28:42

But I got, sorry, I'm laughing. I got your last email. This is how many emails I have. I can't look on that one.

01:28:48

Instantly goes to the waste box. I heard, you know. Oh, it's only 9 ,966. That's how many emails

01:28:55

I have. Sorry. Go ahead. Well, I'm sure with the grace of God, you can get through them all, but, um, yeah, by hitting delete.

01:29:05

So I, I think, you know, who Steve McRae is from the non -sequitur show. From the what show?

01:29:11

Oh, non -sequitur show, Steve McRae. I can't understand the word, the non what show?

01:29:17

Oh, non -sequitur show. Sequitur. Okay. That's the guy after us this week,

01:29:23

Matt, that posted and tagged you and I on Facebook and was going with me on Twitter. That's this, that's the guy.

01:29:29

Yeah. I think you interacted with him on the tag argument as well, but, um, I don't remember.

01:29:34

And then they, then they complained that, oh, yes, you do remember. I don't know who you are. Sorry. You just talked to me three months ago.

01:29:41

Oh, sorry. Sorry, but go ahead. Yeah. So basically I, well, my one friend who helps me with my channel and stuff like that, he did a response video to them.

01:29:51

It was pretty funny. Basically, they were arguing that you can argue any theological position in the Bible because, you know, you can find texts.

01:29:59

I agreed with him. You can, but if you don't do proper exegesis, then yeah, you can support any theological position, not knowing what the text actually meant.

01:30:07

And that's just eisegesis and so on. And I've tried pointing this out to him, but he sort of strawman me. Then he went to something else other than a theological question.

01:30:15

You know, um, how old was King Uzziah when he became a King basically.

01:30:21

And, um, you know, he was saying it was a scribal era, but, uh, I gave him your article. I don't think you read it, but basically my question has to do with what's the best way to present exegesis to people like Steve and who think that you can just read anything into the text and so on.

01:30:37

Easy. When someone does that to me, you know, let's just say, uh, uh, whatever verse it is, we're reading a verse and he just rips it to shreds by reading into the text what isn't there.

01:30:51

Just go with it. Just go with the flow. And so what they'll do, uh, they'll say something.

01:30:57

I'll go, yeah, that's right. I am handsome. Thank you. And then he might go, well, no, no, no.

01:31:03

I said, no, I, I, no, I didn't have pizza last night. Why? It doesn't matter what they say.

01:31:10

I'm going to now isageet whatever I want into what they said in order to get them to say whatever

01:31:16

I want them to say. They can do it. I can do it. And if they want to say it's not fair, why isn't it fair?

01:31:23

If I, you know, why isn't it, why can't I say that when you said, and you pick a sentence that they have, now you're having him explain himself linguistically, he gives you the principles and you poured them over to the scriptures and say, now can you do the same thing over here?

01:31:37

And then have them do this. Well, have you noticed that whenever they want to argue against the

01:31:44

Bible, they can apparently know what it means whenever they critique, you know, stuff in the old Testament and stuff like that.

01:31:50

And at that point, I'm just like, well, geez, are you actually doing X to Jesus now? No, they're not.

01:31:55

So this guy's an unbeliever then? The interesting thing with Steve is that he would then argue that, that Christians who study theology can't talk science because we haven't studied science, but he would argue he can exegete scripture when he doesn't have a background in that.

01:32:13

Well, I also tried telling him that, yeah, sure, Christians don't agree on everything minor.

01:32:19

Like me and Matt would obviously disagree on Calvinism versus Molinism because I consider myself a

01:32:25

Molinist. Let me tackle something with you. Let me try something. Okay. Are we going into Molinism now?

01:32:32

Yeah, really, really quickly. I want to see something here. Are you a divine simplicitist regarding God?

01:32:38

Okay. So basically that's where God is non -composite basically. Right. Yeah.

01:32:45

I don't think God in the material sense is not made up of parts. So would you say his holiness is equal, so to speak, to his omniscience that they're all just part and parcel equality of the total whole of what he is?

01:32:57

You can't part them out as one being greater, lesser. Well, do you think God is made up of persons in the

01:33:03

Trinity and so on? Yes, but that's not talking about the economic Trinity. We're talking about the ontological lessons of the very nature of God himself.

01:33:11

So not about personhood, that's a difference. We're talking about the attributes of God and his omniscience, omnipotence, things like that.

01:33:20

His love, his holiness. So you would say that they're not composite attributes.

01:33:26

We could call them attributes because we describe things like that. But God is the one simplistic eternal whole, right?

01:33:34

Yeah. So God is omnipotent. God is omniscient and so on. But what he knows is not a part of him because then you have to say is two plus two part of him, necessary truths and so on.

01:33:47

When you say it's a part of him, you mean like his left arm is a part of him? Well, are you saying that middle knowledge is sort of...

01:33:53

I didn't ask you about that. So you said part of. So I'm just trying to get about the very nature of God and it was called monism.

01:34:00

Is God, by his own nature, one particular substance that's indivisible into parts in any way, shape or form?

01:34:06

That's a biblical view. You understand that, right? Yeah, the Trinity. God is three persons and one being. Okay. Is his knowledge infinitely always infinite?

01:34:16

What do you mean by that? No, and there's nothing he has to learn in any way, shape or form.

01:34:22

It's always complete. Yeah. Okay. So can his knowledge that's complete be dependent upon any creature's choices and his knowledge depend on their creaturely choices?

01:34:36

If it's possible for free creatures to exist and no, meaning that if it's possible, then

01:34:42

God would know what they would do and so on, a priori, before he creates anything. Well, if he knows what they would do, then he's learning.

01:34:49

That's not the right word. We have a sequence of events in which God logically is learning or deciding what they're going to do by his...

01:34:59

society has the right word. Looking into the future, kind of figuring it out, not the best way to say it either, because his knowledge would be dependent in part upon the free will choices under different circumstances, right?

01:35:12

Well, now we get into necessary truths, you know, natural... I'm just asking this part, right? Oh, yeah, I understand.

01:35:18

I would just say God just knows essentially just like how we can't justify all these other things that God would have to know and so on.

01:35:25

So then if God just knows, he knows everything eternally all the time? Sure. So there is no middle knowledge?

01:35:32

No, I think there would be. I think that's... How can there be if all his knowledge is the same eternally?

01:35:39

Because he would know what free creatures would do for eternity. Only way he could do that is if he decreed that they do it.

01:35:47

How do you... Why assume that? Because nothing can occur without the will of God, Ephesians 1 .11.

01:35:54

Unless you don't believe that scripture. Well, Ephesians 1 .11, I'll actually write that down.

01:35:59

It says all things work after the counsel of God's will. So even the free will decisions of people are ordained by God.

01:36:06

Would you agree? That's how come God can decide what will and will not be known? Can God will creatures to be free?

01:36:13

Yes. So what's the problem? Define free. Being able to choose between two options and so on.

01:36:21

Sure. Can God choose between two options? I don't think... In a moral sense,

01:36:28

I don't think God can choose not to be omnipotent, but I think he could have created the world differently and ordained...

01:36:33

Can God choose between two options? Depends on what we're talking about, giving an example of, you know, choosing between two options.

01:36:40

Can he choose to make your heart hair blonde, your born blonde hair instead of dark hair? Yeah. Okay.

01:36:48

So he has a potential of doing it, but he decided not to. Would God always do the first best or the second best?

01:36:53

First best, logically. So what you have is first best by his decree, isn't it? Why would a red or blue hair?

01:37:01

Well, those are hair colors, but you know, with your example, brown, be better than blonde or something like that.

01:37:06

Not an issue of better. It's an issue of what God would decree would occur because even your free will choices are ultimately decreed by God.

01:37:13

And the only reason any knowledge dependent upon any free will creature can exist is because God has decreed that it would exist, which means from all eternity before they were born, before any free will acts were done or even perceived to be done, that knowledge is already in place.

01:37:26

Can I ask you this question? So are you essentially saying God knows what he decrees? Absolutely.

01:37:32

So can God decree something else? Can God decree something else and learn something new?

01:37:38

No, he can't learn anything new unless you're a theist or maybe a Molanist. Yeah. So he knows this knowledge before he decrees, it seems like.

01:37:45

He doesn't know his knowledge. Well, I thought that, well, that's what our notion is, is knowing all truth propositions.

01:37:52

No, no, no, no, no. Knowledge is a set and he knows it. No, he knows knowledge. He just knows what he is.

01:37:59

He's just part and parcel of his essence and his nature. Now we're getting back to the very nature of what God is.

01:38:04

All of his knowledge is eternally constant and not dependent upon anything else. Would you say then, there's a question, would you say that God's knowledge is in any way, shape or form dependent upon any free will choices of any individual?

01:38:22

If, you know, counterfactuals are a legit truth proposition and so on, then I guess, but at the same time,

01:38:29

God will just know what free creatures would do if he ordains them and so on.

01:38:35

Yeah, they'd only be ordained if God decided to create them and ordain them, which is already eternally done. So the question

01:38:41

I have for you is, is his knowledge in any way dependent upon free will creatures?

01:38:48

Well, would God's knowledge be dependent, and I'll ask you a similar question to answer the question, would God's knowledge of two plus two equals four, is it dependent on that equation, or is that part of his essence of what you're saying?

01:39:01

It's part of his essence, because logic necessarily exists because the God who is the necessary precondition for all intelligibility relates to us, mathematics, part of his essence, into the material world.

01:39:13

It's a whole interesting topic. And we can recognize the truth principle of two plus two equals four because of the laws of logic which emanate out of his essence.

01:39:21

So if God wants to decree something, does that thing have to exist in order for it to be decreed, basically, like the earth, for example?

01:39:28

It doesn't have to exist in order to be decreed. Well, it exists because it's decreed. But for God's decree to work, it has to exist, though, right?

01:39:37

Yeah, something can't bring itself into existence. Now, I'm not saying that God is dependent upon the earth, but at the same time, it still seems like that if God were to decree the earth, it would have to exist.

01:39:48

Do you know what aeseity is? Yeah, self -existence, right? Self -existence in all places, in all time, in all conditions, in all ways, right?

01:39:58

Does God's knowledge depend on anything in the future or in any way on future, let me put it this way, does

01:40:05

God's knowledge, in light of his aeseity, depend on any of the choices of his creatures?

01:40:14

Well, if you agree that God can ordain free creatures, then I would say no, from all eternity.

01:40:20

So the answer is no? But if you say free creatures, then what do you think a free creature is? Being able to choose between two options, and if presented with the same options, again, you could do otherwise, and so on.

01:40:34

Okay. Does that apply to God? I, again, now if it's like a necessary thing, then obviously

01:40:41

God can't choose not to be right, essentially, so it's not like...

01:40:46

Exactly. Yeah, but that's what's true. So your definition of what free is, is humanistic, not God -centered.

01:40:52

Humans do not determine truth. I don't think we can choose our beliefs and so on. You just did. You just determined what freedom is by defining what a man can do, not what

01:41:01

God can do. That's why I said immediately, twice, before, the second time, what can God do that? Because I want to see if you're determining your knowledge base and your mullinism based on human reason or God's character and essence, which is why

01:41:12

I keep coming back to the issue of aseity and any knowledge of God dependent upon creatures. And you say, yes, if it's free.

01:41:18

But now God's knowledge is dependent if God makes them free, in a sense. But then when I ask what freedom is, you use a humanistic principle to define it, and not

01:41:27

God as a standard. So your humanism is coming out. That's why you're human, you're a mullinist. So going back on that, do you think

01:41:34

God is free? Could God create the world any way he wanted to? Yes, he did.

01:41:41

So if he has this freedom, can he give his image bearers this type of freedom as well, with certain options, not like choosing.

01:41:48

What I was saying before was, I don't think we can choose our beliefs if you're being a rational creature, because you don't choose what truth is.

01:41:54

You can't choose your beliefs. You can choose your beliefs. Well, I myself, if you're being a rational creature,

01:41:59

I don't think you can, because you're submitting to the truth. You can choose to believe that when you drive a car tonight going to the store, that the person coming in traffic won't hit on collision with you.

01:42:13

You choose to believe it based on evidence. You can choose your beliefs. Now, I could believe that when they're not walking, but when they start walking, then

01:42:22

I can't choose to believe that. That's sort of the thing. Now, I can sort of assume that they're not going to, but I can't be sure of that.

01:42:29

So you make a choice, and you base your life on a belief system that you choose to affirm based on the evidence.

01:42:40

Does God have the option of doing anything second best?

01:42:46

Well, what do you mean with truth or with just deciding between? So I think

01:42:52

God can, if we both agree God is sovereign, he can create any world he wants to. He's not determined to preordain a certain world, because I think if you deny that, then you're saying

01:43:03

God is determined to determine the world and so on. But on the other hand, we would go,

01:43:08

I agree with you, but on the other hand, God can't choose to lie. Yeah, that's in the moral sense.

01:43:14

Right, because he's restricted by his own nature. And since he knows all things all the time, he knows absolutely every single time in every situation, every single best choice, right?

01:43:26

I don't like the word restricted. I would say if we go with divine simplicity, he is this.

01:43:32

So it's not something that's necessarily restricts him, but it's just being

01:43:37

God. We are all restricted by our own natures. I can flap my arms and try and fly, it's not going to happen.

01:43:43

God cannot lie. It's a restriction upon his nature, because he just can't do it. His nature is what he is.

01:43:50

It's kind of a tautologist statement. But the thing is... Oh, go ahead. Say what you were saying before that.

01:43:56

I just want to... So if God knows all things everywhere all the time, and there's no increase in knowledge, then whatever conclusions and decisions he makes based on all of it would have to be the same, wouldn't it?

01:44:09

It's always the best. Could you unpack that a little bit more? Sure. I'm going to say there's 10 things that represent everything, all right?

01:44:19

And so he knows these 10 things completely. So when item number one and two come together, because he knows everything, then he's going to choose to do something.

01:44:29

He's free to choose, but because he knows what's best always, he's most efficient, most perfect, what he's going to choose is going to be consistent with his whole perfection.

01:44:42

He's always going to choose that which is right. He's always going to choose that which is most glorified to his will, most glorified to his character, his essence, his nature.

01:44:50

He's not going to be choosing things that are, well, maybe I'll just not have Christ crucified. I don't know. Maybe we'll see what happens.

01:44:56

Let's see. I'll just... Well, do you think, on your Calvinist view, do you think God could have ordained

01:45:02

Adam, Eve not to sin? Because that, to me, would be better. Yeah, you don't think that.

01:45:08

That, to me, just limits the sovereignty of God, because you're saying... Not at all. I have a theory about that.

01:45:14

We'll take a little tangent and I'll explain. This is my opinion. This is my opinion. And you could just dismiss it and say, well, nice opinion, but I don't like it.

01:45:20

Well, I don't dismiss most things, because most of what I believe is his opinion anyway.

01:45:25

But my opinion is that only God alone is holy, and holiness is part of God's nature, and I define it as the inability to sin.

01:45:34

All sentient creatures will end up sinning, because they don't possess this quality of nature and attribute of holiness.

01:45:41

This is why, and the clue for that, for me, is out of 1 Timothy 5 .21, when

01:45:46

God talks about the elect angels, the angels that did not fall, because there's no redeemer for them.

01:45:54

They had to be elected not to fall. They would have. They were chosen not to.

01:46:00

That's my conclusion out of that. And so, I believe, based on that, that all sentient beings will end up falling.

01:46:07

And so, when Adam and Eve were created, it's just a matter of time, they're going to fall, because they're not holy in the sense of sharing

01:46:14

God's essence and his nature. It's an incommunicable attribute of God. Can I ask you a question about that?

01:46:20

Sure. So now, are you saying, because Adam and Eve are not holy, they're going to do this, because now it seems like God's knowledge is dependent on that?

01:46:30

No. It's just a naturalization, realization that that's just what it is. They're going to create, they're going to sin.

01:46:36

But does God know that because they're not holy, or because he ordains it at this point?

01:46:42

No. The ordination is the fact that he worked out their existence in the way he did. And the ordination is that their souls are created the way they are in his image with the communicable attributes.

01:46:53

The necessity of their condition, I suspect, the necessity of their condition is that they're going to fall, because they don't possess holiness as a divine attribute.

01:47:01

So before God ordained this, though, he knew that an unholy creature would fall, essentially.

01:47:09

When you say unholy, it has a pejorative sense, but a non -divine holy,

01:47:15

I guess that's the best way to say it that way. I know what you meant, but just be clear. A non -divine holy being, a non -divine holy, wait, a non -divine holy being doesn't exist.

01:47:30

What I affirm more and more over the years is that God alone possesses this quality of holiness.

01:47:36

There's a sense in which we could be holy by being in Christ and seen as holy, but that's different.

01:47:42

And so I think that the attributes of God in his incommunicable attribute is a holiness of his quality belongs to him alone.

01:47:48

I define that in part as the inability to go against his own nature, hence the inability to sin.

01:47:54

And all creatures are not holy by that divine holiness sense, and therefore are going to fall. Now back to the issue of Molinism.

01:48:02

Well, hold on, I don't think you answered my question, because I asked, did God know what a being like this would do, like how you described me, before he ordained it?

01:48:14

Because you said earlier God sort of knows because he ordained it. I don't understand your question. Oh, I'm asking, because what you were saying before was, you know, with Adam and Eve would fall based on how you described their nature.

01:48:29

God knew this, and is it because he ordains it, or because he knew it before he ordains it, that if he were to create these type of beings?

01:48:36

No, I'm not Emperor Supra. I don't go with that stuff. I just believe

01:48:41

God's knowledge is always instantaneous, period, always. So God knows before he ordains things to come.

01:48:51

No, I believe his ordination and his knowledge are simultaneously eternal. Okay, fair enough.

01:48:57

But now with that, could the ordination still change, though, even if it's simultaneously?

01:49:04

Because I don't believe God can change the ordination in the eternal sense. In a temporal sense, yes.

01:49:12

Eternal decrees versus temporal decrees. He could say, hey, I'm going to spank you if you don't do this. Jonah, you know,

01:49:17

Nineveh, they repented, and then they were saved. But from eternal decree, that was already decreed. Yeah, now this gets into, you know, theory of time and so on, and how can a personal being be timeless, which is the most pressuring thing to think about, but I think there's answers for that.

01:49:33

But going back before, okay, so you're saying they're simultaneous but God's...

01:49:41

Yeah, I just don't see normal things. Well, the word decree, oh,

01:49:46

I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just going to say that the word decree seems like a past tense, so it sort of seems like an act of doing something which would seem to require time, but I agree that if I start going down this route, then other things with God.

01:50:00

That's why I think all his, this is why I think God actualizes all his decisions simultaneously. So word nation...

01:50:07

No, he doesn't actualize all his decisions simultaneously because in our time, well, to him, no, in our time, the decision...

01:50:15

In an eternal sense is what I mean. Well, let's get back to... Yeah, yeah, stuff like that.

01:50:22

What just happened? We're getting off... If you said a...

01:50:30

I think Matt's having a problem. It's just the bandwidth looks like it's a pixelating a bit.

01:50:37

Okay. All right, so...

01:50:48

Yeah, Matt, maybe turn down your bandwidth there for a bit. If it's right, it should not be the case here.

01:50:55

Yeah, well, we can hear you now. So, well, let's do this.

01:51:03

Matt, are you done with... Well, I want to get some place with it, but we're almost out of time anyway.

01:51:10

I'm trying to show that God's natural knowledge, his middle knowledge, his free knowledge are all one and the same and not dependent upon creatures.

01:51:19

That's my point. Now with middle knowledge, are you saying different counterfactuals instead of like free creatures and stuff like that?

01:51:27

God decrees that they exist and that in his mind, and he doesn't learn, and his knowledge is not dependent upon any situation of any creature.

01:51:38

Then that would violate his society. Now, would you agree that if these... Am I echoing?

01:51:45

Yeah, you sound good. Oh, I'm echoing to myself for some reason, but that gets annoying after a while.

01:51:53

But anyway, so it seems like you're saying middle knowledge was eternal as well, along with free knowledge and natural knowledge.

01:51:59

I believe all of it is simultaneously eternal. Okay. So would you agree that free creatures could exist if they're dependent upon God's decree?

01:52:09

It depends what you define by free creatures. If you mean just be able to make a choice, then my cat was free.

01:52:15

Between two things, not being determined in the sense of... I won't say in the sense of nature.

01:52:22

What universe do you live in? Are you saying that there are things that happen with outside of God's control and sovereign will?

01:52:31

No. Good. Good, good. So when you say free creature, do you mean that they are under the sovereign will control of God?

01:52:39

This is where my beliefs get confusing. I say, yes. I'm so glad to hear you say that. By confusing,

01:52:46

I mean, if you don't think about it, then it can seem very confusing. But aside from that, yes,

01:52:51

I believe God preordains over things, but yet I believe we are free as well, and second causes and stuff like that.

01:52:59

But ultimately, God ordains the ends to the means and so on. So you would say, out of your

01:53:05

Molinistic thought, that God's knowledge is somehow, some way dependent upon the free will creatures of people, even though the

01:53:11

Bible says that those free will creatures are enslaved to sin and will never come to God.

01:53:18

And you would have to adopt... That's a whole other debate. Yeah, you'd have to adopt a kind of prevenient grace that comes in.

01:53:24

Why was one person going to believe when another was not under different counterfactuals? Which to me is heresy.

01:53:31

Is it? Well, I think I asked you before in the live chat, is Molinism a heresy? You said yes, but not damnable, but that gets into the whole...

01:53:39

Yeah, let's do this just for the sake of time. I'm going to ask you to come back in two weeks.

01:53:46

I do want to give Jerry a couple of minutes, at least, since he's been waiting this whole time.

01:53:52

Is that okay, JMD? Yeah, actually,

01:53:57

I sort of want to invite Matt onto my channel if he has time. Okay, well, we can... Invite a conversation, too.

01:54:04

Yeah, just hang out, don't leave, and after we go off air, we can exchange that. So, Jerry, welcome.

01:54:11

You can unmute yourself. See, I can do that, too. Let me unmute you.

01:54:16

There you go. So, go forward, ask your question, and we only have a few minutes left, but I want to make sure you got in here.

01:54:23

Hey, what's going on, Matt? How you doing? Doing all right, man. How are you? All right, all right. It's nice to be here with you guys, man.

01:54:31

Quick question. Would you consider that... I'm learning a lot of this new reform stuff.

01:54:38

I've asked Andrew some questions. I've asked you some questions. Andrew answers me more than you do. I think you don't like Dominicans.

01:54:44

That's probably why. You don't like the what? You don't like Dominicans from Washington Heights, you know?

01:54:52

Dominicans? You're from the Dominican Republic? Yeah. ¿Hablas español? Sí, ¿hablas español?

01:54:59

Un poquito. Yo tuve en la escuela secundaria cuarenta años pasado. Yo hablo de mucho. Pero decidí practicar.

01:55:07

Quiero aprender la lengua totalmente porque me gusta practicar el español, pero yo no sé la lengua suficiente.

01:55:14

Pero lo hablas muy bien. Eso es bueno. Y tú sabes que Dios habla español. Muy estúpido.

01:55:29

Muy feo. ¿Quién es? No quiero tanto feo.

01:55:37

Okay, I'm sorry, man. I wasn't talking about someone on the far left of the screen. Okay, go ahead.

01:55:42

Yes, yes. My question was, what I'm learning, so God's essence and man's were completely different.

01:55:55

Now, would you say that the only thing that is divine is

01:56:02

God or are there things outside of God that are divine? Because I don't understand. If we, the key here is to define terms.

01:56:10

And so what does divinity mean? Now, I could say my wife getting out of the pool on a hot summer day in a bikini.

01:56:17

Okay, that's not what we're talking about. All right. So what we're talking about is the nature and essence of God himself belongs to God himself.

01:56:26

He alone is divine. So no other thing can have that. God is the only one who possesses that divinity.

01:56:33

Okay, so like angels wouldn't be divine or anything like that? Well, it depends in the sense

01:56:38

I just described as having the God nature and essence. No. But sometimes you could say they're the divine ones in that they come from the presence of the divine one.

01:56:51

And they could be called divine ones in that sense. But as the essence, this is why definitions of terms is really important.

01:56:59

And one last question, brother. When Satan, during the thing with Job, when

01:57:05

Satan approached God, was Satan able to look on him or like the seraphim?

01:57:11

Or we don't know, is it the Bible? That's a good question. Because the Bible says no one can look on the face of God and live.

01:57:18

Exodus 33, 20 or 11. And he doesn't want to approach a light whom no man has seen or can see.

01:57:28

First Timothy 6, 16. So in Job 1, they present, it's logically possible,

01:57:35

I would say, from the arguments that we could lay out on paper, and then argue which ones might be true.

01:57:42

We could say the options are he saw God. The options are he didn't see God. There's only two.

01:57:47

If he saw God, to what degree? A proximity, a light, a glow, or, that reminds me of something, or he didn't see

01:57:56

God. And this reminds me of something. Sorry. Okay.

01:58:02

Didn't see God directly. I'm sorry. I wrote a novel called

01:58:07

The Influence. And in it, there's a, it's been a while since I've read it, so I'm trying to remember it.

01:58:16

But there's a scene. Oh no, it's of the devil. That's right. Hey, don't ruin the book.

01:58:22

You haven't finished it. There's a scene of the fall. And there's a, they're my other setup, because I'm trying to remember my own book, and I can't remember.

01:58:29

I've written so many things. So I lost my place. I forgot what I was saying. And I, there, now what?

01:58:39

I messed myself up pretty bad. I'm going to clip that part right there.

01:58:44

Yeah, it's a mental slip. My frontal lobes just glitched.

01:58:52

So you're saying that he might've not seen, or he might've seen a glow or a blip or, but yeah, because I was thinking about that as I'm learning more and more about the deity of Christ.

01:59:05

And Christ says that, you know, he has seen the father. So I'm thinking that in itself is one, one of those arguments that can be used to point to the deity of Christ, that he is the only one who has ever been able to see the father.

01:59:19

And the Holy Spirit too, right? Yeah, the Holy Spirit. So I'm, I'm all these things. I'm learning, brother.

01:59:24

You know it's hard. It's very hard. And you have to learn. Yes, it's true. It's hard.

01:59:29

It makes you think a lot. I have some stuff on this on Karm. So here's what

01:59:38

I think, or I suspect. The Trinitarian essence of God is only known by the

01:59:43

Trinitarian essence of God. And we creatures can never approach God because his glory can encompass the entire universe.

01:59:50

And if a kabillionth of a kabillionth of a sliver of his glory were to come to us, we're done. So he somehow has to, he can manifest himself to us.

01:59:58

It has to be done through the person and work of Christ. Now the Bible says that we cannot see God, John 6, 46, not that any man has seen the father and first Timothy 6, 16.

02:00:07

You can't do it. He was an unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see. This is talking about people.

02:00:12

So can we apply that to Satan? I don't think so. Because it says people. So I wouldn't then apply it to Satan.

02:00:19

I would say, well, you know what? Think about this. I should have thought of this from the beginning. Before Satan fell,

02:00:25

God created him. He would have seen him. It makes sense to say that Satan would have, Lucifer would have seen him because he created him.

02:00:33

And then unless he's, it wouldn't make sense to say God created him and then put him out someplace so far out.

02:00:39

You can't see me. You stay over there. You can't see me. You know who, what, who are you? But it doesn't quite make sense.

02:00:45

So he got close, you know, I would say he saw him and then when he fell, cast out of the presence of God.

02:00:51

But then in Job coming back, there's some sort of a relationship that still occurs. And seem to come back into heaven to some degree and have some communication.

02:01:01

And then, hey, look at Job, my servant, et cetera, et cetera. That's about the best I could give her. Okay. Can you give me 10 more seconds?

02:01:09

Sure. Yeah. The Holy Spirit, when it says we're indwelt, it's not talking about physically, ontologically, it's a communion, right?

02:01:20

No, it's a real indwelling. And if you go to John 14, 23, the father and I, Jesus is talking, will come and make our abode with you.

02:01:34

So he is in you. Physically, like ontologically, physically? The essence of what he is, is in you.

02:01:45

Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to have to, yeah, because I've read in some places that it isn't but, you know, karma is never wrong.

02:01:57

So I got to... That's right. You're a smart man. There's plenty. We could talk to charismatic gifts.

02:02:05

I think that's wrong there. We could go on a bunch of things. Yeah. To prove him the heretic that he is.

02:02:14

Look, the thing is, Christ in you, in fact, a

02:02:21

Christ, let me look at this phrase, Christ in you, hope of glory, that's

02:02:28

Colossians 1, 27, and that's the only place, let's go backwards, and it says that, to whom

02:02:36

God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of his mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

02:02:43

Now, does it mean among you as a people or in? Well, anyway, we know that God's omniscient.

02:02:49

Jesus is all places at all time and all things, and that's two more doctrines, hypothetic union, communicatio idiomatum.

02:02:57

He has the attributes of both natures. Yeah. And I could explain that if you want, but he lives in us.

02:03:04

So, you know, when you do something bad, pagado, okay, and all of a sudden you go, ow, ouch, ouch, where did it come from?

02:03:12

What's happened? Now, he doesn't tell us, but it's like, it's almost like, would you stop that?

02:03:20

Would you stop that? You know, because you just feel his presence. You feel it internally, externally, and though the

02:03:28

Scriptures don't really say specifically, it does seem to be that he is literally in you.

02:03:34

Now, I just confused the heck out of you, so let me help you out. The hypothetic union is the teaching that in the one person of Christ are two natures, the divine nature, the human nature, both

02:03:46

God and man. You with me? All right. Now, there's a doctrine, which is really fun to say on dates with girls because it impresses them, communicatio idiomatum, the communication.

02:03:58

I'm going to try to impress my wife. That's right.

02:04:03

It turns me to work, you know, when she starts rubbing up on you. Josh is here and we know that it didn't work for Josh.

02:04:11

He didn't read my book on how to date women, which is actually for real out there. Okay, so the communicatio idiomatum, that's a

02:04:19

Latin phrase. In the English, it means communication of the properties. Now, so Jesus is one person with a human nature and a divine nature.

02:04:29

The human nature has properties. The divine nature has properties. The human nature, walk, talk, go to the bathroom, sleep, one place at a time.

02:04:40

The human nature, walk on water, calm an ocean with a command, indwell us.

02:04:48

Father, glorify me with the glory I had with you before the foundation of the world. I'll be with you always, even at the end of the earth.

02:04:54

Okay? The thing is, the person of Jesus, I, I'll be with you always.

02:05:01

I'm hungry. Father, glorify me with the glory I had with you before the foundation of the world.

02:05:07

I'm thirsty. I'm tired. So the I, the person, claimed the attributes of both divinity and humanity because the properties of both natures were communicated to the single person.

02:05:22

Now, this is important because Jesus is two natures. Which nature died on the cross?

02:05:28

Only the human nature. But if only the human nature died on the cross, then how was the sacrifice of divine value?

02:05:37

Because of the communicatio idiomatum. Because the person had the attributes of both and the person died on the cross.

02:05:46

Now, another little kind of a side note is we perceive the divinity through the humanity. If you and I, you know, if I came to visit you, right?

02:05:54

And you're teaching me more Spanish because I got to learn, I got to learn it. And we're walking along the beach. And for some reason,

02:06:01

Jesus is walking on the water, which would be really incredible. It'd be great. Now, we would see divinity manifested in the humanity, but we can't see divinity.

02:06:13

If, this is a bad analogy, if an orb of God's divine nature went by us, what would we go?

02:06:21

What's that? I don't know. What is it? We don't know what it is because God's essence is, as you said earlier, there's a phrase in theology,

02:06:30

God is wholly other, W -H -O -L -L -Y, completely other than us.

02:06:37

So, if we were, if his divinity would be there, how would we recognize it? We can't. We have to see it through the manifestation of Jesus.

02:06:45

So, we perceive the divine through the human. So, we perceive the divine work through the human.

02:06:52

The divine work, walk on water. The divine work, raise the dead. The divine work, calm a storm.

02:06:58

The divine work, okay, but we can only see it manifested through the human. So, we perceive the divine through the human.

02:07:06

And that human being, the person, had attributes of humanity as well as divinity.

02:07:12

And those attributes are ascribed to the single person. I'm hungry. I'm I.

02:07:23

I. I died on the cross. The I, the person of Christ, died on the cross.

02:07:29

Therefore, the sacrifice is of divine value. Furthermore, if the necessary attributes of divinity are omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, omnisapience, which is all wisdom, then

02:07:41

Jesus had to, logically, had to possess them. So, questions would say, but then, let me back up, he possessed them, but then, why would he grow in wisdom and knowledge,

02:07:55

Luke 2, 52? Because he's made under the law, Galatians 4, 4, and Philippians 2, 5 through 8, seems to imply a some kind of cooperation with the limitations of being a man.

02:08:08

I didn't get into the issue of baptism and some other things, and it is miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, I was going to make another point, dang it.

02:08:17

So, since he was doing this, oh, what was it? Divine nature? Ah, I can't remember.

02:08:23

At any rate, no big deal. So, the communicatio idiomatum is that the one person has the attributes of both natures ascribed to him.

02:08:30

Oh, I remember. So, could Jesus have sinned? No. He could not have sinned because the attribute of holiness is also part of the attribute of his personhood, and therefore, he could be tempted, but he can't sin.

02:08:48

Just, I think it's Psalm 106 or 104, they tempted

02:08:53

God in the wilderness. They offered him, hey, we'll make a deal with you, God. You're tempting him. Is he tempted?

02:08:59

He's not tempted. Like me, I don't watch sports at all. I have no interest. So, if someone said, hey, you want to not go watch the

02:09:06

New Predator movie and go watch a football game? They're tempting me. I'm not tempted. So, God could be tempted, but he's not tempted.

02:09:14

Different senses. Jesus could be offered a temptation, but it's not a real temptation to his essence because he's divine, because the quality of holiness is part of his as well.

02:09:27

All right. That makes sense. Hypothetic union, communicatio idiomatum.

02:09:33

Go to Karma and look up those. With those two doctrines, you can answer most any objection to the person, the work of Christ, if you understand those two.

02:09:42

All right. So, now, can the Father be seen? No. I think the Bible clearly teaches us. Whenever they see

02:09:48

God in the Old Testament, Genesis 17, 1, 18, 1, Exodus 24, 9 to 11,

02:09:55

Exodus 6, 2 and 3, Numbers 12, 6 through 8, when they see God, they're seeing the pre -incarnate Christ.

02:10:00

Not the incarnate Christ, but the pre -incarnate Christ. And so, we have to perceive everything about God through the person, work of Christ.

02:10:09

And he forever will be a man, incidentally. Forever. That's another talk we could talk about. Now, so, does

02:10:15

Satan see him? Most probably, it would seem yes at his creation, at the very least. And Job seems to imply some sort of interaction.

02:10:23

And it would imply, since they had a conversation, that there was some proximity there. Since only

02:10:29

God is omniscient, excuse me, omnipresent, and Satan's localized, it would seem that,

02:10:36

I don't know if we could say God went to Satan. That wouldn't make sense. It would seem to be there's a kind of presence of the throne of God where Satan went to, to report, which would be a localization of God's essence for our benefit.

02:10:51

I heard a man one time preaching, and he said that when Satan approached

02:10:57

God, that he was so rebellious that he got in God's face and told God, what are you going to do about it?

02:11:02

And I was like, I think he - That's in the book of, that's in the book of second testicles. I was like, no, man,

02:11:13

I don't think that's what happened at all. That's crazy. That was in Minteroso. Minteroso. Local, not local.

02:11:22

Where's that in the Bible? It's not there. What do you do about it? Are you kidding me? What morons come up with this kind of stuff?

02:11:30

The book of deuterectomy, just idiocy. My spiritual tourette starts kicking in when

02:11:37

I hear stuff like this. Okay. So let's do this. So Jerry, come on back in two weeks.

02:11:43

By the way, I need you to send me that debate you did again. Email me so I can, you had the

02:11:49

Black Hebrew Israelite debate you did. So I still owe you a response on that.

02:11:56

So I haven't forgotten. It's just, I've been traveling. So here's what we're going to do next week.

02:12:03

We're going to have some special guests on. I will be out in Idaho with Justin Peters and Jim Osman.

02:12:11

And so what we're going to do next week, we may or may not take guests. We're going to see how things go, but we're going to have

02:12:18

Justin Peters and Pastor Jim Osman, Matt Slick, myself, where we'll be talking about, well, some heretics,

02:12:27

Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, folks like that. We're going to talk about the word of faith.

02:12:33

We're going to talk about some of the prosperity gospel folks and what's wrong with them, why their theology is wrong.

02:12:42

Talk a little bit about NAR, something Matt is starting to study up again. I guess he's wrapped.

02:12:48

I guess, Matt, you're wrapping up your stuff on annihilationism.

02:12:54

Right. When I'm done, I'll be just over 170 articles. And so then we're going to expect to see many more articles coming out soon on the

02:13:04

NAR, which is really dangerous. And we're going to get just touch the surface of it next week.

02:13:11

So if you have friends who are involved in NAR, word of faith, next week's going to be a great one to get some experts in this area discussing it.

02:13:21

And so just to encourage you, Matt, we've only dropped one episode of this podcast, the

02:13:31

Apologetics Live. And already in the UK, we are ranked in the top 107 out of all the podcasts in religion and spirituality.

02:13:41

So we hit the chart pretty quick there, which is great. I said it would drop. Yeah. But you can listen to some podcasts, go search in your podcast app for Apologetics Live.

02:13:57

Let your friends know, come in apologeticslive .com every Thursday night. We're going to be here eight o 'clock

02:14:03

Eastern where you get to ask Matt your questions. I know some folks came in a little bit later and didn't get a chance to get all their questions asked.

02:14:10

I encourage you try to get in earlier. You get a better shot of getting in earlier because Matt and I do less talking and you get right to questions.

02:14:19

So my encouragement is to get in early. You get a chance to ask

02:14:30

Matt your questions. So go to karm .org, check out the many articles. We're going to be in the show notes having a lot of those articles here.

02:14:39

Also, you can check out Matt's radio show that he has. You can listen to it in podcast.

02:14:46

Just search for Matt Slick and you'll get the Matt Slick live show. I also want to encourage you to listen to my rap report.

02:14:54

It's a two minute daily. If you like things short, we're going to separate those in a month into their own, but I have a two minute daily and a weekly that's about an hour long.

02:15:06

And so you can just search for rap report that's wrapped with two Ps. So with that,

02:15:13

I want to encourage you guys ways you can support us. We'll have some links in the show notes, but you can support both of us on Patreon.

02:15:20

Search for Matt Slick. It's kind of easy to find Matt that way, or you can search for Striving for Eternity.

02:15:27

I actually don't get any of that money, but it supports the ministry I work for. So I guess indirectly I get benefited from that.

02:15:34

So if you want to support us, that would be great. So look forward to next week. We're going to have a great show.

02:15:41

If you don't know who Justin Peters is, you can check out justinpeters .org.

02:15:46

You can find out about him. Excellent, excellent in the field dealing with word of faith. And so until next week, strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.