Tim Staples Clip

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a

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Tuesday morning. Yes, we're still here. The lights are still on The foreign armies haven't not yet quite gotten across the border.

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I Tell you It has been an interesting week to put it to put it mildly

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I Was thinking to myself as I was driving somewhere this morning. I said welcome to the United Soviet No, United Socialist States of America What on earth is going on?

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Don't know not my area of expertise but we're still here and the gospel is still true and the

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Word of God is still living and powerful and Christ still building his church and Maybe those folks who think that Christianity and the

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United States are intimately connected with one another in a definitional sense Might be able to get a little wider view of things and recognize that you know what?

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God was building his church before 1776 so anyway, it is good to be back with you on the dividing line today and We are going to continue on with the debate and with your phone calls and I've got some new

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Tim Staples clips. Those are always fun. I Saw someone posting something. I haven't started getting the flood of emails.

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I'm sure they'll start arriving soon They at least stagger them but when Catholic Answers Has a downturn in donations, which seems to be pretty much constantly and in this economy everybody does so I would imagine they're really

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Up a crick without the proverbial paddle I'll be getting six to eight of the same emails about how

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I need to give to help support the Catholic Answers forums Which I don't know

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I find that extremely humorous to me given what I would learn about myself If I were to actually look everything every reference to me up in the

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Catholic Answers forums I would I would undoubtedly slash my wrists and jump off a cliff all at the same time if I believed even a tenth of what what

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I read about myself there, so anyways, oh Yes, and Lane just reminded me that I can't announce that.

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I have well I announced on the blog so it's not a news I Finished the

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King James only controversy work. That was many many hours, but I think it's going to be Let's put this way

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I know that what's gonna allow the book to do is what I want it to do and that is I Never dreamed of this when

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I wrote it, but what the book has become has been a a textbook it is a textbook in Bible colleges and seminaries across the land and Especially Greek professors find it to be a friendly

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Usable understandable introduction to textual critical issues and It's pastoral so it helps people deal with a pastoral issue and so That's been great and so to have a second edition out new cover

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What's going to be new in it? well, I deleted a lot of quotation marks

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I Did I could not believe how many quotation marks

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I used in appropriately initially and I know it's it's because I'm trying to write in a way that I speak and so I'm using the quotation marks to sort of be

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To sort of indicate the way I'm saying something, but it's just not it's not proper

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There's probably still too many of them, but I I did a lot of those so But far more importantly than that obviously the bibliography is probably about two pages longer than it was before And I think will be much more useful to folks who need that kind of thing

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I? Have added a couple of textual variants not just a couple a few more than that I expanded others

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Provide some end notes and footnotes about some things that have happened since the book was published But most importantly there's much more interaction with Bart Ehrman and with developments in textual critical theory since 1994 which is when

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I wrote the book and his book the orthodox corruption of scripture misquoting

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Jesus And the whole movement in textual critical studies

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Toward the concept of in essence What I call time -traveling mind reading and that is you

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Determine what you think a scribe would have been concerned about and then basically overthrow the external evidence on the basis of Your theories about what would be more likely that a scribe would want to do with the text given the current

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Controversy in his in his day now the problem of course is you don't know what that individual scribe believed about those controversies

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You don't even know how well they knew What the controversies were? Let me give an example a non theological example that made me laugh this morning, and it would but it was sad

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It's a sad laugh But I was directed to a some interviews they did on the streets of New York Brooklyn in the

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Bronx, I think where they walked up to people and they asked them what they did is they took

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John McCain's positions, and they attributed him to Barack Obama and Then asked if people

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You know they only did this to people who are supporting Barack Obama But they they described him as holding

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McCain's positions every single one of them still support Obama and not a single one I'm recognized those were not his positions

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Even to the point of saying well and when Obama wins you won't have a problem with having Sarah Palin as vice president

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Oh, no, no problem. I'm sure she'll do fine Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so we think that we know what the issues today are but the fact the matter is a large portion of our fellow citizens are clueless as To what the issues are and they're still gonna vote which is the really scary part, but the point is you would think

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That everybody and their uncle today would know what the issues are in our society or maybe in theological That's just not the fact that's untrue so how in the world can you assume that back 2 ,000 years ago when you didn't have an internet and you didn't have cell phones and You didn't have fax machines and all the rest that type of stuff

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That everybody was on the same page just even what the controversies were Let alone that this the particular scribe in a particular manuscript had these particular viewpoints that he could then somehow smuggle into the text

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I have a real problem Because Bart Ehrman ends up coming up With certain readings and Greek New Testament that are that are substantiated by almost nothing

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But by almost no external evidence, but all because of how he creates

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The the probabilities and I quoted this in a book where Gordon Fee says that that airmen's biggest problem is that he takes possibilities and turns them into probabilities than the probabilities become

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Certainties and those become the foundations of his position And he doesn't really explain how you get from the one to the next the next day to sort of grow over time and that is

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Something I have observed many many times in listening to Bart Ehrman's presentations, and I think his books are filled with the very same things so Anyway, I address

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Bart Ehrman I address the I added an entire section And we're not a hundred percent certain exactly how we're gonna handle it whether we could break it off into its own chapter or leave

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It where it was in the chapter. I inserted in But I basically an excursus on the reliability of the text of New Testament The issue of those first few centuries where most textual variants arise the issue of multifocality

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The tenacity of the text really expanded that part because I think that's extremely important in our context and Then we're doing some graphical things in fact.

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I'm waiting today. Hopefully a friend of mine back on Long Island will be taking some high -quality digital pictures of Certain very early

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English translations before the King James Version the Stephanus 1555 text And I even posted yesterday about this.

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I'm doing a whole section on Revelation 16 5 and basically I'm saying is okay King James only advocates here is an example you want an example

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Here's an example Let's go to the mat on this example, and I demonstrate that no one up until the time of Theodore Beza so Beza is

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Calvin's successor at Geneva no one up until that time had ever seen

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Revelation 16 5 reading the way the King James Version of Revelation 16 5 reads and the reason is

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Theodore Beza made what's called a conjectural emendation That's where you go.

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You know. I think it originally read like this even though I don't have a single manuscript that reads this way. That's a conjectural you're making an injection making a guess you don't have any evidence for it, but you're making a guess and Beza made a conjectural emendation

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That appears in a 1598 edition of his Greek New Testament, which was the primary Greek New Testament used by the

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King James translators and So what I do is I go through and you'll see on the blog

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Last night I posted this as a part of a thanks to Haseem Son of Ramallah king of graphics

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I had I Really should brought in here, so I could at least show the camera something. I bought a photo mechanical

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Reproduction of Erasmus is 1522 edition the Greek New Testament, which is his third edition, which was the same one that Luther used and that was so that third edition was extremely important Luther's you know

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Growing and in his argumentation and stuff like that. He was familiar with Erasmus's work and So anyway,

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I got the thing in the mail it wasn't cheap and I opened it up.

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I went oh, man the have you ever seen photocopies just that were really not well done or the background is almost as dark as the print itself and That that's what this whole book is the the background of the pages is dark dark dark dark gray and Then the prints black and so I scanned it and then

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I did everything I could with the very limited Software that I have available to me, and I did clean it up But it still wasn't anywhere near Usable as far as the

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As the book was concerned as that bummed me out because I wanted to have I want to have Erasmus I'm gonna have the 1555

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Stephanus I'm gonna have the the great Bible the bishops Bible Coverdale's Bible All of them read the same way because there is no textual variant here the the

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Greek manuscript this this is Beza chose to introduce a conjectural emendation at a point where no one had ever had any problem with the text as Far as what it reads in the

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Greek It's ha ha see us, which means the Holy One He thought that should be a

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Salman us So it match it would flow more nicely who was and who is and who is to come said that sounds so much better than Who was and who is the

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Holy One? So you just want to sort of improve things a little bit so I sent

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I took the graphic that I had created and I sent it over to Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics and Said can you do anything with this you know is this is this a possibility is is are we gonna

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You know can I he says yeah, I can clean this up and so a little bit a little bit later

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I get this email and it is Perfect. It's there's no more background the backgrounds gone.

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All you have is the text the text is clear. It's clean It'll be in the book and so many things to Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics

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As you know you can almost do that sort of like how the Muslims always whenever they say Muhammad They just throw in the

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Arabic peace be upon him, and it's just sort of becomes part of one name From now on it's gonna be Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics you can say very fast

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That's how well, that's how we'll do it in the future so anyways There's just gonna be this section, and I'm gonna document okay here are the facts the

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Greek New Testament here is Erasmus here is Stephanus here is

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Coverdale here is the bishop's Bible here is the Geneva Bible 1560 They all say the same thing the

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King James Changes it Alters it takes out this name of God why and The only way to deal with this is to go is to look at history and go oh they followed

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Baysa They didn't check out the variant readings they didn't notice that there were other readings at this point in Erasmus and in Stephanus, and that's why it's there and That's why no one should even give it a second thought that it's original

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But the King James only advocate cannot do that Because to do so is to violate fundamentally

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The the entire Perspective of the King James only movement, so it's going to be that's been added in So there's gonna be

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For those of you who have the original edition wondering well should I get the second? Well of course you should

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Just simply because you listen to the dividing line you should get the second one, but yes there will be reasons to to do so as well and So likewise right now what

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I'm doing is I'm working on a second edition to the Potter's freedom and as you know there was a second edition of Chosen but free it came out very shortly after the first edition did and we never

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Really responded to the appendix The a response has been on the web for a long time, but be honest with you

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I don't know how many people have ever actually seen that and So I'm going to be taking that material and cleaning it up a little bit

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I'm gonna be putting that in as an appendix a full -length response to his appendix adding a section on 2nd

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Peter 2 1 and another on 1st Timothy 4 10 and that will compromise that will compose the

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Second edition of the Potter's freedom as well Which should be probably out faster than King James only because they need to print another edition

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So we're gonna we're on a little bit a bit of a fast track as far as As that is concerned So oh

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Okay, all right Anyway, so that's what's that's what's going on there, okay, let's

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We've got two phone calls. We'll get to those in just a moment I did promise you at least one quick Tim Staples Citation so let's go ahead and do that first then get to our phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and This one is fascinating to me because It's about indulgences and yes

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Indulgences still exist within the Roman Catholic Church Let's let's take a listen to What Tim Staples says about?

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Indulgences Sandy I hope that helps you. Thank you for calling. I have one more small question, okay?

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We got real quick the I was taught somewhere along the line, but during mass if you strike your chest

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And they say I'm not worthy to receive you three times, but that's a partial indulgence is that true that that's right

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Sandy They the in fact putting your finger in the fount of holy water and blessing yourself

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That too is a partial indulgence there are many such things and what that means is you don't gain a plenary indulgence that is the remission of the all of the punishment is due for sin, but in accordance with The the person who is performing that action they intentionally willfully and properly disposed do it

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They merit blessing from God, and that's what we mean by partial Indulgence that means it to a degree known by God alone

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Some of the temporal punishment due for sin can be removed by our performing these actions and really

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I'll leave you with this. I know we've gone too long on this question, but it is a deep question Sandy And I do hope you'll give a listen to the my

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CD set Called God's perfect plan purgatory and indulgence is explained, but really this is

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Holy Mother Church Teaching her children that doing good actions like this in Christ through Christ Within you know with a mind that is focused on Christ is good for you

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And you you gain grace, and you grow in grace, and this is a way You know as st. Paul describes it in 2nd

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Corinthians 7 verses 1 and 2 he says having these these promises dearly beloved Let us cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit

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Perfecting holiness in the fear of God. I love that text there because we have something to do with this we have to cleanse ourselves

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In and through the power of Christ of course and and really indulgences are a way Holy Mother Church gives us the tools

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That you know because Jesus gave her the tools to do it the keys of the kingdom to aid us

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Help us and one more thing. I'll mention Sandy when you do these meritorious actions in Obedience to the church you're joining together not just your meritorious action

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But the church is piling on as it will Through the the infinite merits of Christ and the merits of Mary and the

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Saints The church is is in essence making your meritorious action all the more meritorious

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It's kind of like on a simple level You know the difference between me praying and me and John praying together and me

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John and Darren praying together The more of us who pray together and help one another there's more power

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Jesus said in Matthew 18 19 We're two or three together in my name there am I in the midst there is power when we get together well imagine

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The church is saying you're joining together with God's Holy Mary and the

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Saints and the infinite merits of Christ so that we're we're making what you do your little prayer

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There is going to be so much more powerful now First of all when the

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Apostle Paul in that context speaks of cleansing yourselves He's not talking about removing punishments for sins from one's soul and Here you see once again that theology matters and when

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Rome confuses Justification and sanctification this is the result

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This is the result. This is this is the same thing. I've pointed out many times in regards to Luther's a pile of dung illustration if it even was

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Luther's Certainly fits with in many ways because Roman Catholics like to mock that and say see

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When you when you use that illustration, which if you haven't heard it Luther allegedly likened

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Justification to we are a pile of dung we are offensive to God because of our sin But but the righteous of Christ like that first snowfall that covers everything over removes that Offensiveness it doesn't change the pile that's sanctification

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But justification takes with that offensiveness with God because of the imputation of a foreign righteousness.

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They say see it's all fiction It's all fiction. You're not truly right with God You're not truly you haven't been changed into a pile of gold see that's we say you're changed in a pile of gold

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But the rest of the story is in Roman Catholic theology Well, you are changed into a pile of gold.

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The problem is you still live in this life. And so as you sin flecks of dung begin to appear on the surface of the gold and what's worse is you have no way of knowing whether you're a pile of Gold or a pile of dung because you you can't be presumptuous

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And so you might commit a mortal sin and no one really knows exactly what a mortal sin is Anyways, and if you've committed a mortal sin and you you don't go through the sacrament of penance that and receive a sacramental forgiveness for that Then now you're a pile of dung and so you go to hell and but even if you are a pile of gold when you die

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You've got dung in your service you've got to go to purgatory and get get all that burned off or you can get into heaven see and That's what happens when you confuse the grounds of our standing before God in the righteousness of Jesus Christ and the

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Experience of being conformed into his image, which is sanctification theology matters now aside from all the silliness that you know

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You'd I mean hit yourself in the chest three times say I'm not worthy to receive you and boom You just get you you've just received a transfer from the treasure of merit the thesaurus meritorium.

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Boom. There you go yeah, that's that's a New Testament teaching but there's

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And the the dipping the finger of the holy water and and partial indulgences right there

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I can't tell you how many Catholics look we don't believe in indulgences. We got rid of that Vatican too. Well, they obviously don't listen to Catholic answers live.

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So anyway, all right, let's Much more good said about that and I have a number of others queued up but we are actually getting a number of phone calls today, which is unusual on a

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Tuesday morning, it's normally a more afternoon type thing. But hey We'll take him when they come in.

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So let's Go back east and talk with Chris. Hello, Chris Yes, sir

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I've a bone to pick with you, sir. Just very brief one. I'm a busy man. I know you watch yourself Brief as I can but I feel like it probably just talk about it that Clifton just played, you know, the fellow talking about doing it the finger the water and all this it's all just silliness, you know, and Quite frankly why they grow religion is such a tomfoolery and I'll have none of it

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None of it at all. And I don't know why you would have anything to do with it either quite Frank I wish you were not saying all the things you're saying because I prefer to have all my religious people be not so A Periodic, you know, so so all the theological

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Acumen and so on all the textual this or that and feel it a philosophical Categories and everything.

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I just wish you would not talk like that because I like my religious people to stay doofus Yes, yes

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You know that almost That was almost a perfect Christopher Hitchens.

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It's very close. Not not quite but but pretty close Well, I dare say that my British accents are quite a bit better than yours

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Yes, I certainly certainly understand even there there are some people in in England that wish they had as good an accent as I do but anyway

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No, quite seriously I'm sort of wondering what's your what's your real purpose and calling is

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Chris? Well, I noticed on your blog you have a Richard Dawkins zealous followers, I guess

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I'm one of those I don't know but I but I don't know why it'd be so Why not just get rid of all religious mumbo -jumbo just just own up to the truth of the matter

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Which is that we're in the universe all alone. It's not there's nothing else to it and Sun's gonna go cold.

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We're gonna die and so on. It sounds like you've listened to a lot of Christopher Hitchens. Oh Uh -huh

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Even though I do remember

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Christopher Hitchens when he was when he was on a certain radio program Debating a

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Christian was very quick to quote Bart Ehrman as his source For in essence dismissing the modern

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New Testament is having any any relevance whatsoever I'm not sure if you heard that debate

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So when when he himself admits That as far as reconstructing the original

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We have in essence accomplished that task and everything else after that is mere tinkering

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You'd agree with him that the New Testament manuscript tradition is in fact that robust That we have in fact

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Reconstructed the original text in New Testament. I mean you are aware of the fact that he says that Try for all of his academic writing academic writing comes off much more conservative.

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I like his populous writing I like a good popular writer Also Yes, so you admit that he says one thing to his fellow scholars who can check him out and something different to people who have no clue as to what the actual facts are

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I Suppose he's too weak needed intimidated by fellows like yourself to To really come out and say what he really believes and so it's good to toe the line

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You know square and make out as though it's all the New Testament really has some sort of fossil foundation and take it real seriously

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But then his populous writings, which I love so much You know, he really that's a problem of evil

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I mean, I had a hangnail this morning and I just thought to myself how could it be a good hang? Yeah, well, why don't you since since you do such an excellent

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Christopher Hitchens impersonation Why don't you present to us his primary argument?

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Which I've heard him repeat many many times and therefore if you know him so well And I'm closer to him than a brother.

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I'm sure you could repeat his his Favorite argument against the especially the

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Christian faith No, no, I'm talking about Christopher Hitchens Either way, of course,

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I'm extremely drunk right now. So I don't know I'm probably gonna make this in store

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But I suppose I was just the stiletto and both saying that I live in the silly stupid and it's caused all manner of atrocities throughout time

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Not finally, we've I don't know Big smarty pants.

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Sorry Chris. You didn't yeah. Yeah, you got it You got to study him a little bit even I know what his his favorite argument is

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He used it with with the Dennis D'Souza and he does it in his and almost all of his talks

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Wait a minute. No, give me another chance. Was it an insult? Well, hey, you know

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Chris I really do appreciate your you're coming on to defend

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I'm not sure that Bart's overly happy that you're doing that but Thank you

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Chris for calling day you you get to feeling better sometime Okay Absolutely positively no earthly idea who in the world that was but whoever he is he's probably gonna get sued by Christopher Hitchens Okay, so we're gonna go back to we've got calls from Rob and James to get to and some more things there

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By the way, really quickly before we take the break his argument. It's it's the it's the 98 ,000 year argument

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We've we've played it on the dividing line before where he talks about how allegedly, you know mankind's exist all this time and and God sat around watching all these people dying all these people suffering until 2 ,000 years ago went through a bloody sacrifice and an out -of -the -way corner of The world he allegedly made everything right?

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That's his Argument against Christianity and I think it's obviously given that it's is getting a lot of play.

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We need to be Aware of that and unfortunately old Chris there in New York wasn't aware of that which means he needs to He's got he's got

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Hitchens down pretty well He just doesn't have his arguments down as well as he needs to Eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one.

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We're gonna take our break beer right back Today Many stars strong and true

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For Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

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James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word.

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You What is dr.

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Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

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Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

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James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

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James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the reform faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The potter's freedom a defense of the

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reform theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

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Hello, everyone. This is rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha -Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you Callers here because we have three people online and we have one

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Rob will get right to you. I know you've waiting a little while. Sorry about that, but I Imagine Martin calling from the

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UK. I know we know who Martin is. So we know Martin is not faking Martin So Martin, how are you?

34:29

So, what'd you think of that last guy? He was very good. I thought it wasn't a bad Christopher Hitchens impersonation

34:39

Thank you very much Anyway, you uh, you had a question about surah 36 14 and since we happen to be able to take a break

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I was actually able to not only get hold of my Islamic stuff But since I have a feeling I know what you're asking about ran into the office and pulled

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Ibn Kathir off the shelf So go for it. Yeah I was trawling around the internet as you do and on YouTube and I came across a video

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I presume by a Christian man, he's got a sort of a

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Middle Eastern accent And he makes the claim that in that passage of surah 36 14 when he translates it from the

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Arabic Oh, well, even just here Even could be it from the Arabic Paul's in there.

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Yes, it is And he says how then can Muslims vilify Paul since even could see it makes them one of the one of the other prophets

35:33

Have you come across that before and yes, sir. Yeah. Yeah, I've actually mentioned it to a few a few Muslims in conversation

35:41

Let's let's get everybody up to speed here surah 36 surah yasin ayah 14

35:49

In Assad's translation says lo we send to them two apostles and they gave the lie to both and So we strengthened the two with a third and thereupon they said behold we have been sent unto you by God now

36:02

Ibn Kathir is one of the earliest tafsirs one of the earliest Commentaries on the

36:08

Quran and He mentions to us. This is for those of you who are interested saying is volume 8

36:16

Pages 178 179 at least of the edition that I have But he let me just read it real quickly here in the reports that he transmitted from Ibn Abbas Kaaba Abra and Waba bin

36:30

Manabi Ibn Ishaq reported that it was the city of Antioch. So the first thing is this is the city of Antioch that is supposed to be

36:39

Discussed here in which there was a king called Antiochus the son of Antiochus the son of Antiochus Should get really confusing around Christmas time who used to worship idols

36:48

Allah sent to him three messengers whose names were Sadiq Saduq and Shalom and He disbelieved in them.

36:56

It was also narrated from Brad bin Al -Husayb Iqlima Qatada and Azuri that it was

37:04

Antioch. So He's saying here. There's a lot of early interpreters that felt that this was Antioch Some of the imams were not sure that it was

37:12

Antioch and we shall see below after telling the rest of the story if Allah Wills then he goes on and when it's mentions the third we reinforce some of the third

37:20

Here's what the man on YouTube was referring to it. He says quote Means we supported and strengthened them with a third messenger

37:29

Ibn Juraj narrated from Waba bin Salman From Shaib al -Jabai and by the way, if you're wondering why there's all these names thrown there these these are called chains of narration, it's not and from the

37:44

Islamic perspective is extremely important because Allegedly establishes a chain back to the original people

37:49

Of course problem is they also have to admit that a lot of people made them up so that's another issue, but here's the quote the names of the first two messengers were

37:57

Shamoon and Yohanna and The name the third was Bullis and the city was

38:04

Antioch now Bullis in Arabic is Paul And we know that Paul goes to Antioch and so the the whole idea is this now

38:18

Ibn Kathir is Quoting somebody else. He's not saying this is how he interprets it.

38:24

He's giving this is one of the interpretations How could there have ever arisen amongst the early

38:31

Muslims the idea? That Bullis Paul was sent by Allah to strengthen messengers not that he was a

38:41

Rasool or a prophet like that, but that he was sent by God if all the

38:49

Incredible nastiness that they throw Paul's direction today Was the original view of the

38:56

Islamic people it was not it clearly was not their original view The apologetic that has developed today is

39:03

Comes along much later And it comes along after the the

39:09

Muslim Academy begins to develop and it has to start interacting with the actual text of Scripture That's when they discovered that Muhammad was wrong about the text of the

39:18

Bible and instead of rejecting Muhammad they end up starting to attack the text of the Bible Paul being the key a key element in the

39:27

New Testament Begins to be attacked and of course today any liberal attack on Paul is worthy to be used by Muslim apologists the series

39:36

I did in response to alia tie on that very issue demonstrates that Yeah, that's pretty much.

39:43

Yeah, I mean the guy goes on to make the claim. I thought was very valid that Because Paul and the apostles were sent out and he makes a claim sent out from Jesus Only Allah can send out messengers only

39:56

Allah can send out prophets who do miracles Therefore he's making the claim in the Quran that Jesus almost dead is identified then as for equal to or God Hmm Yeah, I understand that I understand the argument

40:12

I'm not sure how much weight I would put upon it certainly is a law that does so my my gut feeling would be

40:19

I've not heard that one argued before my gut feeling would be if I were in the Islamic position I would say well, but there are people who represent

40:27

Allah Muhammad represented Allah and Muhammad sent people to do this the same people to do that That's not the same thing as sending an apostle or I have an azul

40:38

But they would then say well the the disciples of Jesus are not described as being razzle in that sense

40:45

So there might be a way around it But I I do think that that that Ibn Kathir's commentary does indicate that the anti Pauline anti New Testament writer

40:58

Attitude that is so common and prevalent amongst modern Islamic apologists was not the viewpoint of the early

41:04

Muslims they did not they The whole idea that the New Testament old testament were corrupt documents and so on and so forth just simply was not a part of their experience

41:17

Yes a while ago now for a couple of years I sent you a book called a perfect Quran yes

41:24

Yes, I mean now that you've sort of learned Arabic or in the process of learning Arabic I mean, I must admit

41:29

I flicked through that book and even though I'm living in a Pre Islamic nation shall we say yes

41:37

Yes, yes I just wonder I did try and plot a graph of why when you're reading sort of Arabic and you're thinking

41:43

I don't know what They say I mean it would you still say it's the the comments we make and the comparisons he makes

41:51

Oh, I'll tell it or well I haven't spent a lot of time with it only because when I look through it it seemed to be exceptionally focused upon What are called the readings the the seven and then 49?

42:03

readings of the Quran I haven't gotten into a lot of that simply because My focus is much more textual rather than the issue of how you

42:17

Pronounce in a Quraishi dialect versus a non Quraishi dialect or wherever else it might be

42:23

So my focus has been primarily there, but I do intend to To get more into that as as time allows.

42:31

There's just so much I have so much that I want to be reading right now But I'm having to you know edit books and read up on Bart Ehrman and so on so forth so I do appreciate

42:42

And I have looked at it. It did seem to be focused more upon that. I sort of looked for textual stuff

42:47

I didn't see a lot of textual stuff, but I might have missed it So I'm definitely planning on spending more time with in the future Yeah, it's it's difficult if you don't have a background language and and It's very helpful when you when you when you see it so anyway

43:05

All right Yes, I'll be there

43:15

Well now actually I Believe that Shabir Ali is going to be in your neck of the woods and We're we're trying to arrange a debate with him he's gonna be up in Manchester, and I'm gonna be in London and I have suggested that maybe the way to make this work out is do it in Birmingham Because it's a it's a long ways from London to Manchester and back again in one day so Birmingham would sort of be midway and so If you have if you for example would happen to know of a venue that might be willing to have

43:52

Shabir Ali and I Engage in a debate on the 15th of no 15 and 16th

43:59

Let me look at the thing here real quick Today the DDD Dada this is live webcasting here.

44:05

Oh, I hate when my calendar does that it would be the 15th Saturday the 15th probably in the afternoon make sure to let us know because Okay, that would be helpful because it's easier to get to Birmingham from London than it is to get to Manchester from London Excellent.

44:20

Well if you do find yourself in Birmingham, I then I'm me my wife more than happy to accommodate you Well that may end up having to be something

44:28

I do if it if the if the debate ends up going late And I can't get back to London then that may be something

44:34

I need to do so Accommodation being talking about a hundred dollars a night probably stay in Birmingham.

44:43

Yeah. Well, it's it's sat in London, too. So All right, okay, well, thank you, sir

44:51

Thanks for calling. God bless. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right, let's quick get to Rob. Sorry about that Rob long time waiting

44:57

No problem. Well worth the wait. No problem. You even got to hear Christopher Hitchens called in right? I can't do a bridge

45:03

So I'm stuck with a plane Midwestern. That's all right Anyway, first of all,

45:10

I wanted to congratulate you on your ministries the 25th anniversary Thank you. And I I've been listening since about 2003 about exactly five years and And it's been a really great help to me and I've read some your books

45:21

I've given them as gifts to some people and you know People say they they lend my books out and then never get them back and they somehow think that it's proper to complain to Me about that.

45:30

I'm not But but I appreciate that and I appreciate

45:36

I like your YouTube videos a lot, too I like the thing with the hats. It seems like it like you have a hat for every occasion

45:44

No, I that might not be a bad idea Early on it some of your early clips. I know you wore like a kind of like a

45:50

Hawaiian shirt People were making fun of your shirt. They were they were I mean, I kind of like it It's kind of like you're the theological

45:55

Don Ho. No, no, no No That's why No You see and what was worse was people thought

46:01

I was becoming a Calvary Chapel pastor And so I had I had to go back to something a little more formal.

46:07

So anyway, I Started today off with a cap on but I took it off during the break because he was getting too warm in here

46:13

So I could give a different color. Maybe everyone that like changes colors during the show. That would be fun Or something well, actually what

46:19

I'd like is a coogee hat if someone get me a coogee hat that is Massively colorful then I would then

46:25

I would be perfectly fine with that But that's not why you waited 45 minutes to call is it? That would be

46:34

No, I'm calling about something I've noticed I've been enjoying listening to your your

46:42

Overviews of the Catholicism debates with mr. Madrid and it reminded me of something I've noticed the last few years and it seems like since 9 -eleven, especially since the

46:50

Iraq war began there's been a number of Catholic writers who've You know, there's been books that have come out about how the

46:56

Catholic Church saved Western civilization or that it That it created Western civilization and I've heard, you know basically, it seems like they don't in the past Rome saved what you're from the

47:08

Muslim hordes and Basically simply, I mean they've never said so many words, but it seems like You know, they're kind of promoting the idea that I Don't know how to put it.

47:19

Well as the church goes so does civilization. Yeah, they're saying like what we need to call We need to look to them They're like our great hope and I've heard some of them use the phrase that like well

47:28

Uh, and one of them used the phrase midwife that the Roman Catholic Church was the midwife of modern culture

47:34

And they said, oh well you Protestants really owe us and have any Your debate opponents already come up with that.

47:40

I mean, how would you know what you counter that? Well, I think it's I think it's a part of their thinking For certain there is a there is such a gross anachronism and most of them to where they can

47:49

Seriously look at the Council of Nicaea and they see it as a Roman Catholic Council and I look at the Council of Nicaea And I see no

47:56

Pope and I see no papal infallibility and I see No bodily assumption,

48:03

I see no perpetual virginity and and I see no immaculate conception I see no indulgences and I see no purgatory and I see no transubstantiation.

48:10

I go that's not Roman Catholicism and There's you know, it's a it's a major step that direction with with with the state and church getting closer together and More like medieval

48:22

Catholicism the modern Catholicism, but it's it's it's still not there. And so From their perspective though, that's such a deeply entrenched concept that yeah from their perspective

48:33

I think some of them probably think that Protestantism is responsible for a degradation in Western society

48:38

Everything was great when we were in charge. Well actually medieval, you know The medieval your

48:45

European history isn't all that great. I mean look at look at how they respond to the plague But still

48:51

I think it is a part of the way they think but they've never used it as an argument Specifically because I don't know that any of the debates we were doing really, you know lent themselves

48:58

Well, that seems like also in recent years. There's been some kind of revisionist history They've been kind of painting a prettier picture of the

49:04

Crusades and I saw a book review of something I don't know the name of the book, but basically there's been well the Inquisition wasn't so bad

49:09

It'll probably have made it worse than it was. It was necessary or it was And I don't know what the

49:15

The term really was the you know wasn't there not so many people people weren't treated unjustly routinely people weren't

49:22

How would you respond to that Yeah, well there are

49:29

I mean there is no question that the polemics of the 16th and 17th centuries tended to be very starkly divisive and that on both sides of the

49:47

Reformation divide You would not have any reason for someone to give much of a benefit of doubt to anybody on the other side at all especially when

49:55

You realize that if you crossed an imaginary line on a particular map, you might be arrested and turned into a flaming

50:03

Hunk of flesh the next day. So these were matters of life and death and that didn't exactly help to keep things overly fair along those lines, so you're gonna find that there were

50:16

Protestants who Overdid things in regards to the Inquisition and of course

50:21

Rome on the other hand has every reason in the world to try to do Just the opposite. So there are lots of scholarly studies today

50:31

That are more to the point and you've never heard me you know,

50:36

I've mentioned things like the Inquisition, but what have I always mentioned it in the context of in the context of the

50:43

Roman claims to infallibility Let's leave and use the clip. I play from Tim Staples Tim Staples talks about indulgences and how this is the church acting through the power of the keys

50:55

Did y 'all catch that he said through the power of the keys? Well, look at all the things the church has given indulgences for in the past that the church would have to admit today

51:03

We're utterly fraudulent going and staring at the at a bird feather as if it came from the angel

51:09

Gabriel, but the church gives you indulgences and Uses those indulgences to then get money to buy st

51:16

Peter's Basilica and I say wait a minute if the people in that day had no way of knowing

51:21

Well, that was true or false. How do you have any way of knowing today? What Rome tells you whether it's true or false?

51:27

I mean, it's all a house of cards. And so I've tried to present it not so much as in Oh, this was just a terrible horrible horrible thing but what is the theological ramification of recognizing that the church in Rome was specifically and purposely involved in doing these things and did so on a theological ground and so there are a number of books on the

51:50

Crusades I'm I was listening. I listened to an entire series. Maybe if I'll go was in channel

51:55

He could remind me who it was. I was listening to because he knows who it was, but I was listening to I'll look it up.

52:03

Maybe it was it was a whole series of lectures on the subject of the of the Crusades I listened to them over the past couple of months and the authors the lecturers name has unfortunately

52:14

Gotten away from me, but another name is coming to my mind is Colton on the Inquisition. That's a little bit older but You know interestingly enough you'll if you'll find

52:26

Roman Catholic Historians who are scholarly and who are not looking to Shall we say get themselves a point of the

52:37

Vatican? They're actually be the ones are going to give you the best information on things like that because they're gonna be actually rather honest about it

52:46

So you'll you'll be able to track stuff like that Thomas someone's saying Thomas Madden. That's yes, Professor Madden.

52:51

That's right Thomas Madden's work on the Crusades Thank You blue boat and channel that's that's what I was looking forward to okay, and so all right

53:01

Ask you about and I noticed this I don't see this is on your bio on your on the home page or somewhere else, but I read somewhere that before you'd gotten to theology at one point like I guess when you were an undergrad you had considered becoming a

53:12

Medical doctor is that right? Yeah, I was double major in Bible and biology I was there was there a certain thing that led you to to you know

53:20

To go into as opposed to medicine was there a certain um well Alpha Omega Ministries was started while I was still in college and so My my first major is biology.

53:32

I added the Bible major and then as the ministry expanded That's where my my desire and my heart was was drawn to more and so when

53:39

I decided to go into seminary Even though I completed my major in biology past my my senior boards department fellow in Adam in physiology the whole yards

53:49

That just didn't fit with going in the seminary and continuing my Greek studies and things like that so But for a number of years that was that was my intention

54:04

So how long honestly Rob did you work on that? Five seconds yeah, okay

54:17

Thanks Rob there's a lot of people in the audience right now that are groaning terribly, okay?

54:25

I did and and that was a fair fair punishment for ethics. That's so thanks

54:30

Rob Let's see if we can squeeze James in here real quick James on the septuagint real quick Yes, I First of all let me say that you are the first person that I'm asking about this

54:43

So I haven't like tried to research this other than okay. I'm calling you I first of all would you agree that the the

54:50

New Testament writers Quotes and subdued and even when it is different from the

54:56

Hebrew Yep, many times well not many times, but they do yes example example in Hebrews chapter 8

55:05

They specifically follow the septuagint reading when it differs from the Hebrew reading in the citation from Jeremiah 31, so yes, uh -huh okay, and the

55:15

The when you say that the scripture is inerrant you mean in the original autograph mm -hmm, okay?

55:22

So I'm just curious how that works out if the New Testament writers are quoting subdued And then when it's different from the

55:29

Hebrew assuming that the Hebrew manuscripts were similar to the original More even vastly similar to the original how do you then still hold to the inerrancy of the

55:38

New Testament? Because it seems to me that would be an error on the New Testament writers part well of course you're assuming that a couple errant things at that point

55:49

There is no problem in recognizing that God's Word can be translated into the languages if I were writing to Let's say church in St..

56:01

Louis today, it would be silly for me to write to them in German They speak English, and so if I'm going to make reference to Scripture I'm going to make reference to a language is available to them the

56:13

New Testament writers are writing to churches that do not Read or utilize

56:18

Hebrew they are writing in a time period when Greek has become the lingua franca of the

56:24

Roman Empire and therefore you're going to utilize the Version of the

56:30

Bible that they have accessible to them and so what that emphasizes is that even when you are quoting

56:36

From the Word of God that it is appropriate and the Apostles give example of Quoting from a translation and yet still calling it the

56:45

Word of God. This is an argument That's not new if you will read the exact comments on this very issue by the

56:51

King James version translators in the preface to the readers they likewise address this very issue and They use this as an example of their assertion that the phrase the

57:03

Word of God is properly applied Even to what they call the meanest translation

57:09

As long as the essence of the message is being brought through and the translators are truly seeking to translate

57:19

Faithfully even if they might to differ with one another as to the particulars so secondly you're seemingly assuming that the

57:27

Hebrew text is In all ways shape and form superior to the Greek Septuagint now.

57:33

It's interesting to me one one thing that I try to and in 20 seconds they hold off on the hold off on the on the

57:43

Closer here. I'll go a little bit long because I don't want to leave people hanging on this one of the things I've tried to warn people about in the past one of the common

57:52

Apologetic errors that a lot of people make is they they say look the the Isaiah scroll found in Dead Sea Scrolls is

58:00

Identical to the Hebrew Masoretic text that existed 900 years later, and this is from a hundred years for Christ so you've got a thousand years of transmission and no change and that that is a

58:11

Appropriate assertion that is true But what they need but people need to be very careful is when you throw that out be ready for a sharp response

58:19

And the response is yeah, but the Jeremiah of the Dead Sea Scrolls Is very different than the

58:27

Masoretic Jeremiah because why because the Jeremiah follows the Greek Septuagint Transmission line at that point not the

58:33

Hebrew Masoretic now I think there's some reasons for that in the text of Jeremiah itself it refers to his text being torn up by the scribes and so there was a there was a

58:47

First edition of Jeremiah that did exist And then you have the additions made after he is thrown in the miry pit type situation

58:58

And that could very well reflect the initial transmission, and then the later additions that come after that That's just the text itself makes reference to that.

59:07

It's a possibility since we're only talking what? 300 years between that time period and the and the

59:15

Translation of the Greek Septuagint, I I can't prove that but it's It's something to you know give some consideration to but the point is that there are multiple transmission lines even in regards to the text of the

59:28

Old Testament though not nearly as complex as what we have in the early

59:33

New Testament period because it's a very different means of of transmitting the text and so The the issue would come down to when we talk about the

59:45

New Testament and its use of the Old Testament fundamentally Whose authority are we going on that is if we are examining this as if we're looking at these

59:58

Apostles as being who they were then their utilization of the

01:00:03

Old Testament text for us becomes normative in a Debate with a Jewish individual that's going to be one of your primary

01:00:10

Issues to deal with and then you're gonna have to get into some pretty complex stuff in the early church the

01:00:16

Jews For example as soon as the Christians began using the Greek Septuagint began looking at Psalm 110 for example and the other

01:00:22

Messianic Psalms They come up with their own Greek translation they abandoned the use of the

01:00:27

Septuagint and they go with Aquila and So then you have all the arguments and again. These are 1700 years old arguments, maybe even more

01:00:35

Where the two sides are arguing over the accuracy of the Greek translation They're using many of them no longer having direct access to the

01:00:42

Hebrew as well but I I do not believe that it's an issue of Saying well,

01:00:49

I have to make the Original look like the Masoretic text and that's the only thing that I can claim an errancy for We don't have the original texts.

01:00:59

The issue is how accurately have those texts been transmitted to us and there is a very different methodology in the means by which the

01:01:08

Old Testament text is preserved primarily within the people of God within a particular geographical area over against the

01:01:15

New Testament where that is not the means that God uses to transmit the text at all that leads to a very complex discussion of the textual critical issues of of the

01:01:26

Old Testament There are some I think some excellent works now available on these subjects

01:01:32

That have not been available in previous years an invitation to the Septuagint I forget the

01:01:37

I think Silva was involved one of the authors with that one that you might want to take a look at Emmanuel Tov's work on the textual criticism of the

01:01:45

Old Testament as well. There's stuff out there, but it is not The type of stuff that you're gonna find in most

01:01:51

Christian bookshelves. You're gonna have to go looking for that, unfortunately Okay. All right Alright, thanks.

01:01:57

Thanks for calling. All right, that was Let's finish let's start with Chris and his

01:02:04

British accent and then stop with Going a little bit long so we can discuss the

01:02:11

Greek Septuagint and the Hebrew Masoretic text Let me ask you something folks. Is there any place else on the web?

01:02:17

You can go to get something like the That's why we could never be on a network no one running a network

01:02:25

Usain would let something as crazy as this on but hey, that's why we love it.

01:02:30

Thanks for being with us We'll be back on Thursday Lord willing. God bless. Bye The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

01:03:34

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