Tim Staples Clip

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Opening Reflections on the Nation, the Gospel, and the Church

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. Yes. We're still here. The lights are still on. The foreign armies haven't not yet quite gotten across the border. I Tell you It has been an interesting week to put it to put it mildly I Was thinking to myself as I was driving somewhere this morning.

I said welcome to the United Soviet No, United Socialist States of America. What on earth is going on? Don't know not my area of expertise but we're still here and the gospel is still true and the Word of God is still living and powerful and Christ still building his church and Maybe those folks who think that Christianity and the United States are intimately connected with one another in a definitional sense Might be able to get a little wider view of things and recognize that you know, what?

God was building his church before 1776 so anyway, it is good to be back with you on the dividing line today and We are going to continue on with the debate and with your phone calls and I've got some new Tim Staples clips.

Those are always fun. I Saw someone posting something. I haven't started getting the flood of emails. I'm sure they'll start arriving soon. They at least stagger them, but when Catholic answers Has a downturn in donations, which seems to be pretty much constantly and in this economy everybody does so I would imagine they're really Up a crick without the proverbial paddle I'll be getting six to eight of the same emails about how I need to give to help support the Catholic answers forums.

Which I don't know I find that extremely humorous to me given what I would learn about myself. If I were to actually look everything every reference to me up in the Catholic answers forums I would I would undoubtedly slash my wrists and jump off a cliff all at the same time if I believed even a tenth of what what I read about myself there, so anyways, oh Yes, and Lane just reminded me that I can announce that I have well I announced on the blog.

So it's not a news. I Finished the King James only controversy work. That was many many hours, but I think it's going to be Let's put this way I know that what's going to allow the book to do is what I want it to do and that is I Never dreamed of this when I wrote it, but what the book has become has been a a textbook it is a textbook in Bible colleges and seminaries across the land and Especially Greek professors find it to be a friendly usable Understandable introduction to textual critical issues and it's pastoral so it helps people deal with a pastoral issue and so.

That's been great. And so to have a second edition out new cover. What's going to be new in it? Well, I deleted a lot of quotation marks I Did I could not believe how many quotation marks I used in appropriately initially and I know it's it's because I'm trying to write in a way that I speak and so I'm using the quotation marks to sort of be To sort of indicate the way I'm saying something but it's just not it's not proper.

There's probably still too many of them, but I I did a lot of those so. But far more importantly than that Obviously the bibliography is probably about two pages longer than it was before and I think will be much more useful to folks who need that kind of thing.

I Have added a couple of textual variants not just a couple a few more than that. I expanded others Provide some end notes and footnotes about some things that have happened since the book was published.

But most importantly there's much more interaction with Bart Ehrman and with developments in textual critical theory since 1994 which is when I wrote the book and his book the orthodox corruption of scripture misquoting Jesus.

And the whole movement in textual critical studies. Toward the concept of in essence What I call time-traveling mind reading and that is you determine what you think a scribe would have been concerned about and then basically overthrow the external evidence on the basis of Your theories about what would be more likely that a scribe would want to do with the text given the current Controversy in his in his day now the problem of course is you don't know what that individual scribe believed about those controversies.

You don't even know how well they knew What the controversies were? Let me give an example a non theological example that made me laugh this morning, and it would but it was sad. It's a sad laugh. But I was directed to a some interviews they did on the streets of New York Brooklyn in the Bronx, I think where they walked up to people and they asked them what they did is they took John McCain's positions, and they attributed him to Barack Obama and Then asked if people.

You know they only did this to people who are supporting Barack Obama. But they they described him as holding McCain's positions every single one I'm still support Obama and not a single one of them recognized those were not his positions.

Even to the point of saying well and when Obama wins you won't have a problem with having Sarah Palin as vice president. Oh, no, no problem at all. I'm sure she'll do fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so we think that we know what the issues today are but the fact the matter is a large portion of our fellow citizens are Clueless as to what the issues are and they're still gonna vote which is the really scary part.

But the point is you would think That everybody in their uncle today would know what the issues are in our society or maybe in theological. That's just not the fact that's untrue. So how in the world can you assume that back two thousand years ago when you didn't have an internet?

And you didn't have cell phones. And you didn't have fax machines and all the rest that type of stuff. That everybody was on the same page just even what the controversies were. Let alone that this the particular scribe in a particular manuscript had these particular viewpoints that he could then Somehow smuggle into the text.

I have a real problem. Because Bart Ehrman ends up coming up With certain readings in the Greek New Testament that are that are substantiated by almost nothing. But by almost no external evidence, but all because of how he creates The the probabilities and I quoted this in a book where Gordon Fee says that that airman's biggest problem is that he takes possibilities and turns them into probabilities than the probabilities become Certainties and those become the foundations of his position.

And he doesn't really explain how you get from the one to the next the next day to sort of grow over time and that Is something I have observed many many times in listening to Bart Ehrman's presentations, and I think his books are filled with the very same things so.

Anyway, I address Bart Ehrman. I address the I added an entire section. And we're not a hundred percent certain exactly how we're gonna handle it whether we're gonna break it off into its own chapter or leave It where it was in the chapter.

I inserted in. But I basically an excursus on the reliability of the text of New Testament. The issue of those first few centuries where most textual variants arise the issue of multifacality. The tenacity of the text really expanded that part because I think that's extremely important in our context and.

Then we're doing some graphical things in fact. I'm waiting today. Hopefully a friend of mine back on Long Island will be taking some high-quality digital pictures of Certain very early English translations before the King James Version the Stephanus 1555 text.

And I even posted yesterday about this. I'm doing a whole section on Revelation 16 5 and basically I'm saying is okay King James only advocates here is an example you want an example. Here's an example.

Let's go to the mat on this example, and I demonstrate that no one up until the time of Theodore Beza so Beza is Calvin's successor at Geneva no one up until that time had ever seen Revelation 16 5 reading the way the King James Version Revelation 16 5 reads and the reason is Theodore Beza made what's called a conjectural emendation.

That's where you go. You know I think it originally read like this even though I don't have a single manuscript that reads this way. That's a conjectural you're making an injection making a guess you don't have any evidence for it, but you're making a guess and Beza made a conjectural emendation.

That appears in a 1598 edition of his Greek New Testament, which was the primary Greek New Testament used by the King James translators and. So what I do is I go through and you'll see on the blog. Last night I posted this as a part of a thanks to Haseem Son of Ramallah king of graphics I had I Really should brought in here, so I could at least show the camera something.

I bought a photo mechanical Reproduction of Erasmus is 1522 edition the Greek New Testament, which is his third edition, which was the same one? that Luther used and that was so that third edition was extremely important in Luther's you know Growing and in his argumentation and stuff like that.

He was familiar with Erasmus's work and So anyway, I got the thing in the mail it wasn't cheap and I opened it up. I went oh, man the have you ever seen photocopies just that were really not well done or the background is almost as dark as the print itself and That that's what this whole book is the the background the pages is dark dark dark dark gray.

And then the prints black and so I scanned it, and then I did everything I could with the very limited Software that I have available to me, and I did clean it up. But it still wasn't anywhere near Usable as far as the As the book was concerned as that bummed me out because I wanted to have I want to have Erasmus I'm gonna have the 1555 Stephanus.

I'm gonna have the the great Bible the bishops Bible Coverdale's Bible. All of them read the same way because there is no textual variant here. The the Greek manuscript this this is Beza chose to introduce a conjectural Emendation at a point where no one had ever had any problem with the text as far as what it reads in the Greek.

It's ha ha see us, which means the Holy One. He thought that should be a Salman us. So it match it would flow more nicely who was and who is and who is to come said that sounds so much better than Who was and who is the Holy One?

So you just want to sort of improve things a little bit so I sent I took the graphic that I had created and I sent it over to Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics and Said can you do anything with this you know is this is this a possibility is is are we gonna.

You know can I he says yeah, I can clean this up and so a little bit a little bit later I get this email and it is Perfect. It's there's no more background the backgrounds gone. All you have is the text the text is clear.

It's clean. It'll be in the book and so many things to Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics. As you can almost do that sort of like how the Muslims always whenever they say Muhammad. They just throw in the Arabic peace be upon him, and it's just sort of becomes part of one name.

From now on it's gonna be Hasim son of Ramallah king of graphics you can say very fast. That's how well, that's how we'll do it in the future so anyways There's just gonna be this section, and I'm gonna document okay here are the facts the Greek New Testament here is Erasmus here is Stephanus here is Coverdale here is the bishops Bible here is the Geneva Bible 1560.

They all say the same thing the King James Changes it Alters it takes out this name of God why and The only way to deal with this is to go is to look at history and go oh they followed Beza. They didn't check out the variant readings they didn't notice that there were other readings at this point in Erasmus and in Stephanus, and that's why it's there and That's why no one should even give it a second thought that it's original.

But the King James only advocate cannot do that. Because to do so is to violate fundamentally The the entire Perspective of the King James only movement, so it's going to be that's been added in so there's gonna be.

For those of you who have the original edition wondering well should I would get the second well of course you should. Just simply because you listen to the dividing line you should get the second one, but yes there will be reasons to to do so as well and so likewise right now what I'm doing is I'm working on a Second edition to the Potter's freedom and as you know there was a second edition of chosen.

But free it came out very shortly after the first edition did and we never really responded to the appendix. The a response has been on the web for a long time, but be honest with you I don't know how many people have ever actually seen that and so I'm going to be taking that material and Cleaning it up a little bit.

I'm gonna be putting that in as an appendix a full-length response to his appendix adding a section on 2nd Peter 2 1 and another on 1st Timothy 4 10 and that will compromise that will compose the Second edition of the Potter's freedom as well.

Which should be probably out faster than King James only because they need to print another edition. So we're gonna run a little bit a bit of a fast track as far as That is concerned. So oh. Okay, all right.

Anyway, so that's what's that's what's going on there, okay, let's. We've got two phone calls. We'll get to those in just a moment. I did promise you at least one quick Tim Staples Citation, so let's go ahead and do that first then get to our phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and This one is fascinating to me because It's about indulgences and yes Indulgences still exist within the Roman Catholic Church.

Let's let's take a listen to What Tim Staples says about indulgences.

Sandy I hope that helps you. Thank you for calling. I have one more small question. Okay. We got real quick. The I was taught somewhere along the line that during mass if you strike your chest They say I'm not worthy to receive you three times, but that's a partial indulgence.

Is that true that that's right Sandy they the in fact putting your finger in the Fount of holy water and blessing yourself. That too is a partial indulgence or many such things and what that means is you don't gain a plenary indulgence that is the remission of the all of the punishment is due for sin, but in accordance with The the person who is performing that action they intentionally willfully and properly disposed do it.

They merit blessing from God and that's what we mean by partial Indulgence that means in it to a degree known by God alone. Some of the temporal punishment due for sin can be removed by our performing these actions and really I'll leave you with this.

I know we've gone too long on this question, but it is a deep question Sandy and I do hope you'll give a listen to The my CD set a called God's perfect plan purgatory and indulgence is explained. But really this is Holy Mother Church Teaching her children that doing good actions like this in Christ through Christ Within you know with a mind that is focused on Christ is good for you.

And you you gain grace and you grow in grace, and this is a way You know as st. Paul describes it in 2nd Corinthians 7 verses 1 and 2 he says having these these promises dearly beloved. Let us cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit.

Perfecting holiness in the fear of God. I love that text there because we have something to do with this we have to cleanse ourselves In and through the power of Christ of course and and really indulgences are a way Holy Mother Church gives us the tools.

That you know because Jesus gave her the tools to do it the keys of the kingdom to aid us. Help us and one more thing I'll mention Sandy when you do these meritorious actions in obedience to the church.

You're joining together not just your meritorious action. But the church is piling on as it will through the the infinite merits of Christ and the merits of Mary and the Saints. The church is is in essence making your meritorious action all the more meritorious.

It's kind of like on a simple level. You know the difference between me praying and me and John praying together and me John and Darren praying together. The more of us who pray together and help one another there's more power.

Jesus said in Matthew 18 19 We're two or three together in my name there am I in the midst there is power when we get together well imagine The church is saying you're joining together with God's Holy Mary and the Saints and the infinite merits of Christ so that we're we're making what you do your little prayer.

There is going to be so much more powerful now.

Justification, Sanctification, and the Catholic Doctrine of Indulgences

First of all when the Apostle Paul in that context speaks of cleansing yourselves He's not talking about removing punishments for sins from one's soul and Here you see once again that theology matters and when Rome confuses Justification and sanctification this is the result.

This is the result. This is this is the same thing. I've pointed out many times in regards to Luther's pile of dung illustration if it even was Luther's Certainly fits with him anyways because Roman Catholics like to mock that and say see.

When you when you use that illustration, which if you haven't heard it Luther allegedly likened Justification to we are a pile of dung we are offensive to God because of our sin. But but the righteous of Christ like that first snowfall that covers everything over removes that Offensiveness it doesn't change the pile that's sanctification.

But justification takes away that offensiveness with God because of the imputation of a foreign righteousness. They say see it's all fiction. It's all fiction. You're not truly right with God. You're not truly you haven't been changed into a pile of gold see that's we say you're changed in a pile of gold.

But the rest of the story is in Roman Catholic theology. Well, you are changed into a pile of gold. The problem is you still live in this life. And so as you sin flecks of dung begin to appear on the surface of the gold and what's worse is you have no way of knowing whether you're a pile of gold or a pile of dung because you.

You can't be presumptuous and so you might commit a mortal sin and no one really knows exactly what a mortal sin is anyways and if you've committed a Mortal sin and you you don't go through the sacrament of penance that and receive a sacramental forgiveness for that.

Then now you're a pile of dung and so you go to hell and but even if you are a pile of gold when you die. You've got dung in your service you've got to go to purgatory and get get all that burned off or you can get into heaven see and That's what happens when you confuse the grounds of our standing before God in the righteousness of Jesus Christ and the Experience of being conformed into his image, which is sanctification.

Theology matters now aside from all the silliness that you know. You'd I mean hit yourself in the chest three times say I'm not worthy to receive you and boom. You just get you you just received a transfer from the treasure of merit the thesaurus meritorium.

Boom. There you go yeah, that's that's a New Testament teaching but there's. And the the dipping the finger of the holy water and and partial indulgences right there I can't tell you how many Catholics look we don't believe in indulgences.

We got rid of that Vatican too. Well, they obviously don't listen to Catholic answers live. So anyway, all right, let's Much more good said about that and I have a number of others queued up but we are actually getting a number of phone calls today, which is unusual on a Tuesday morning, it's normally a more afternoon type thing.

But hey. We'll take him when they come in. So let's Go back east and talk with Chris. Hello, Chris. Yes, sir.

Quite all the things you're saying because I prefer to have all my religious people be Not so human and so on all the textual. Yes. Yes.

You know that almost. That was almost a perfect Christopher Hitchens is very close. Not not quite but but but pretty close. Yes, I certainly certainly understand. Even there there are some people in in England that wish they had as good an accent as I do.

But anyway. No, quite seriously I I'm sort of wondering what's your what's your real purpose and calling is Chris?

I guess I'm one of those. Why not just get rid of all of religious mumbo-jumbo in the universe all alone.

I don't like you've listened to a lot of Christopher Hitchens. Oh.

Yes, indeed. I'm quite a friend. In fact a friend friend and family. Yes. Uh-huh. Yes, the friend is thick as close as the brother.

Oh Yes, even though I do remember Christopher Hitchens when he was when he was on a certain radio program. Debating a Christian was very quick to quote Bart Ehrman as his source for in essence dismissing The modern New Testament is having any any relevance whatsoever.

I'm not sure if you heard that debate. The logical. So so when when he himself admits That as far as reconstructing the original We have in essence accomplished that task and everything else. After that is mere tinkering you'd agree with him that the New Testament manuscript tradition is in fact that robust That we have in fact Reconstructed the original text in the New Testament.

I mean you are aware of the fact that he says that.

All of his academic writing so his academic writing comes off much more conservative. I like his populous writer.

Yes, so you admit that. He says one thing to his fellow scholars who can check him out and something different to people Who have no clue as to what the actual facts are.

Make out as though it's all the foundation and take it real seriously, but then as popular search. You know People. I mean I had a hangnail this morning, and I just thought myself how could it be a good hangnail?

Yeah, well, why don't you since since you do such an excellent Christopher Hitchens impersonation. Why don't you present to us his primary argument? Which I've heard him repeat many many times and therefore if you know him so well.

And I'm closer to him than a brother. I'm sure you could repeat his his favorite argument against the especially the Christian faith. No no I'm talking about Christopher Hitchens. You got to study him a little bit even I know what his his favorite argument is.

He used it with with Dinesh D'Souza, and he does it in his and almost all of his talks. Well hey you know Chris I really do appreciate your you're coming on to defend I'm not sure that Bart's overly happy that you're doing that but Thank you Chris for calling today you you get to feel him better sometime, okay?

Absolutely positively no earthly idea who in the world that was but whoever he is he's probably gonna get sued by Christopher Hitchens. Okay, so we're gonna go back to we've got calls from Rob and James to get to and some more things there by the way.

Really quickly before we take the break his argument. It's it's the it's the 98 ,000 year argument. We've played it on the dividing line before where he talks about how allegedly you know Mankind's exist all this time and and God sat around watching all these people dying all these people suffering until 2 ,000 years ago went through a bloody sacrifice and an out of the out of the way corner of The world he allegedly made everything right that's his Arguments against Christianity, and I think it's obviously given that it's Is getting a lot of play we need to be?

Aware of that and Unfortunately old Chris there in New York wasn't aware of that which means he needs to he's got he's got Hitchens down pretty well. He just doesn't have his arguments down as well as he needs to 877 -753 -3341 we're gonna take our break be right back.

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The Septuagint, the Hebrew Text, and New Testament Inerrancy

And we'll go back to the dividing line to get right back to our callers here because we have three people online and we have one Rob we'll get right to you. I know you've waiting a little while. Sorry about that, but I Imagine Martin calling from the UK.

I know we know who Martin is. So we know Martin is not faking Martin. So Martin, how are you? So, what'd you think of that last guy? Oh, he was very good. It wasn't a bad Christopher Hitchens impersonation.

Thank you very much. Anyway, you uh, you had a question about sir 3614 and since we happen to be able to take a break I was actually able to not only get hold of my Islamic stuff but since I have a feeling I know what you're asking about ran into the office and Pulled Ibn Kathir off the shelf.

So go for it. Yeah.

Well, I was crawling around the internet as you do and on YouTube and I came across a video I presume by a Christian man, he's got a Sort of a Middle Eastern act and he makes the claim that in that passage of surah 36 14 When he translates it from the Arabic or the Ibn Kathir Father Ibn Kathir from the Arabic.

Paul's in there. Yes, it is. And he said how then can Muslims vilify Paul since Ibn Kathir makes him one of the one of the prophets. Have you come across that before and yes, sir? Yeah.

Yeah, I've actually mentioned it to a few a few Muslims in conversation. Let's let's get everybody up to speed here. Surah 36 surah yasin ayah 14 in Assad's translation says lo we send to them two apostles and they gave the lie to both and So we strengthened the two with a third and thereupon they said behold we have been sent unto you by God now Ibn Kathir is one of the earliest tafsirs one of the earliest Commentaries on the Quran and He mentions to us.

This is for those of you who are interested saying is volume 8 Pages 178 179 at least of the edition that I have. But he let me just read it real quickly here in the reports that he transmitted from Ibn Abbas Kab al-abr and wab bin munabi Ibn Ishaq reported that it was the city of Antioch.

So the first thing is this is the city of Antioch that is supposed to be Discussed here in which there was a king called Antiochus the son of Antiochus the son of Antiochus. Get really confusing around Christmastime who used to worship idols.

Allah sent to him three messengers whose names were Sadiq saduq and shalom and He disbelieved in them. It was also narrated from Brad bin al-hussayb Iklima katada and Azuri that it was Antioch. So He's saying here There's a lot of early interpreters that felt that this was Antioch.

Some of the imams were not sure that it was Antioch and we shall see below after telling the rest of story if Allah wills. Then he goes on and when it's mentions the third we reinforce them in the third.

Here's what the man on YouTube was referring to it. He says quote Means we supported and strengthened them with a third messenger Ibn Juraj narrated from Wabin Salaiman from Shaib al-Jabai. And by the way, if you're wondering why there's all these names thrown there these these are called chains of narration.

It's not and from the Islamic perspective is extremely important because Allegedly establishes a chain back to the original people. Of course problem is they also have to admit that a lot of people made them up.

So that's another issue, but here's the quote the names of the first two messengers were shamoon and Yohanna and the name the third was bullous and The city was Antioch now bullous in Arabic is Paul. And we know that Paul goes to Antioch and so the the whole idea is this now Ibn Kathir is Quoting somebody else he's not saying this is how he interprets it.

He's giving this is one of the interpretations. How could there have ever arisen amongst the early Muslims the idea that Bullous Paul was sent by Allah to strengthen messengers not that he was a Rasool or a prophet like that, but that he was sent by God if all the Incredible nastiness that they throw Paul's direction today.

Was the original view of the Islamic people it was not it clearly was not their original view the apologetic that has developed today is. It comes along much later. And it comes along after the the Muslim Academy begins to develop and it has to start interacting with the actual text of scripture.

That's when they discovered that Muhammad was wrong about the text of the Bible and instead of rejecting Muhammad They end up starting to attack the text the Bible Paul being the key a key element in the New Testament Begins to be attacked and of course today any liberal attack on Paul is worthy to be used by Muslim apologists the series I did in response to alia tie on that very issue demonstrates that.

Yeah, that's pretty much. Yeah, I mean the guy goes on to make and he makes a place sent out from Jesus. Only Allah can send out messengers. Only Allah can send out prophets who do miracles. Therefore he's making the claim in the Quran that Jesus almost dead is identified then as or equal to or God.

Hmm. Yeah, I understand that. I understand the argument. I'm not sure how much weight I would put upon. It certainly is a law that does. So my my gut feeling would be. I've not heard that one argued before.

My gut feeling would be. If I were in the Islamic position I would say well, but there are people who represent Allah. Muhammad represented Allah and Muhammad sent people to do this the same people to do that.

That's not the same thing as sending an apostle or a razzle. But they would then say well the the disciples of Jesus are not described as being razzle in that sense. So there might be a way around it.

But I I do think that that that Ibn Kathir's commentary does indicate that the anti Pauline anti New Testament writer Attitude that is so common and prevalent amongst modern Islamic apologists was not the viewpoint of the early Muslims.

They did not they. The whole idea that the New Testament Old Testament were corrupt documents and so on and so forth just simply was not a part of their experience.

Yes a while ago now for you a couple of years I sent you book called a perfect Quran. Yes. Yes, I mean now that you've sort of learned Arabic or in the process learning Arabic. I mean, I must admit I flicked through that book and even though I'm living in a Pre Islamic nation shall we say yes?

Yes, yes, and I just wonder I did try and plow through grass. When you're reading sort of Arabic and you're thinking I don't know what this says, I mean, would you still say it's the the comments that he makes and the comparisons he makes.