March 1, 2019 Show with Frank Mullis on “Sanctification Through Suffering”

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this first day

of March 2019.

And I am thrilled to have back as a returning guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,

someone that I thoroughly enjoyed the last couple of times I interviewed him, and I'm speaking about

Frank Mullis.

He is a speaker for Striving for Eternity Ministries, the ministry founded by my old friend

Andrew Rappaport, and he is co -owner operator at

Milledgeville Academy of Mixed Martial Arts.

He's also senior pastor at the Devereux Baptist Church in Sparta, Georgia and

licensed professional counselor at STOP, Inc.

And today he's going to be addressing sanctification through suffering and we're also going to be announcing an

upcoming conference on that same theme, sanctification through suffering, where Frank Mullis is on the

speaking roster.

But it's my honor and privilege.

To welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Frank Mullis.

Thank you, Chris.

It's good to be back.

And did I pronounce the name of the city where your Academy of Mixed Martial Arts is

located?

Yes, you did.

A lot of people up north thought it was mispronounced, but it's Milledgeville, Georgia.

That's correct.

You got it right.

Great.

And I'm glad that you mentioned the name of the city, because I might have butchered it the second

time.

Well, before we go into our discussion at hand,

why don't you tell our listeners about, first of all, Striving for Eternity.

I know that that is not specifically the ministry that you founded.

We know that Andrew Rappaport founded it, but you obviously are one of the speakers on the team

at Striving for Eternity, so why don't you tell our listeners about that.

For those of my listeners who have missed hearing Andrew or other speakers involved

with Striving for Eternity on the program in the past,.

Let us know about this ministry.

Yeah, myself and a

guy who founded the ministry, I don't know if you've had a chance to

meet Anthony at G3, but we three are all on the

board of Striving for Eternity, and taken

together to help Andrew's rifling

evangelism.

He does a lot of

country -speaking engagements.

He and Anthony are headed out to the Shepherds Conference.

They always leave me behind because I can never go to the Shepherds Conference.

They always get me about that.

He'll send me a picture.

Rub it in a little bit.

Yeah, they always rub it in.

Sometimes they crop photos of me in there.

But yeah, we've had a great time over the last few years that I've been with Striving for Eternity.

The various disciples, various

individuals in churches, in hermeneutics, evangelism,

and we're just excited to take this ministry into this area

this upcoming next week in dealing with.

Sanctification.

Okay, well now let us know about something that we've addressed with

you on the show, at least in an abbreviated fashion in the past, but the

Milledgeville Academy of Mixed Martial Arts.

Tell us about that.

Tell us about how you even.

Got involved in that to begin with.

Well, as a young child, I was bullied much smaller than

I am now.

Growing up, I was bullied a lot, and I had the opportunity in 1988 in karate.

I began studying

karate teaching.

Once I got my black belt here in Milledgeville.

After that, I found Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu Seminary in North

Carolina.

There, I met Henzo Gracie.

From there, throughout the years, and eventually began

staying under one of his...

Well, his first I became the UFC

welterweight champion, and eventually got my black belt under Matt.

This past year marks our 11th or 12th year, I believe, here in Milledgeville, and I partnered

up with a Christian brother from up there, Tony

Academy that we've opened up, and we've been growing.

The Lord's

blessed us over

the last

year.

He and I, we've had

the testimony through that, and others that I've been able to meet and

reach through.

Now, mixed martial arts,.

I'm assuming that means when you're having a competition, or if you even need to use your

skills in a real -life situation where you're defending your safety and your

life or that of someone else, you're mixing your Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu and

your karate, and perhaps even.

Boxing and street fighting and all of that mixed together?

Yeah, martial arts has changed, definitely, because of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

The belief was that stand -up boxing or karate was the ultimate, and

it would save you in every circumstance.

Traditional wrestlers knew that wasn't the truth.

Judo players knew that wasn't the truth, but karate guys got away with it for so long

until the Gracies came from Brazil and introduced ground

fighting, and it changed the whole aspect of martial arts.

Showing that you have to know how to defend yourself

standing, you know how to defend yourself when you're grappling, and then

if you're taken to the ground, how to defend yourself as well.

So, there's not really one martial art anymore that can give you a total.

And so, therefore, I'm assuming in professional.

Competitions, if it is a karate competition or a Jiu

-Jitsu competition or one of the other martial arts, they would be judging on your

purity involving those individual skills rather than a mixed martial art.

Competition would be a different genre, right?

Yeah, and most of those would be more of a sport.

There would be no ground fighting.

In a sport, Jiu -Jitsu tournament, there would be no striking.

Judo, obviously, action ends if a person,

there would be no ground fighting, but you're

correct in that.

And have you ever needed to use your martial arts skills in real -life situations where you were defending your

safety, your life, or that of someone else?

Well, I will say I have used my mental

Jiu -Jitsu.

Well, even I can say that.

I've used my verbal Jiu -Jitsu, and I have the self -confidence.

And martial arts really gives you what you need to use.

I've needed to even go to

a physical altercation.

Find that people who don't know how to defend themselves to defend themselves.

Still, in my counseling situation, I work with a variety of criminals,

and there have been a few occasions, but

not physically threatened.

And I'm glad I do have the ability to, if the need came up, to be able to.

Great.

Well, I'm thinking of when I travel to different places to conduct

live moderated debates and conferences, maybe I should bring you and several of my other

martial art experts with me as my team of bodyguards.

Do you know Keith Foskey, pastor of Sovereign Grace Family Church in

Jacksonville, Florida?

He is also a black belt in at least one of the martial arts and instructs folks.

I want to say you and I have talked about him before, but I don't believe I've had a chance to meet him.

Well, you would love him.

And of course, I've had Jeff Durbin on the show, and I've had a couple of other people that are involved in this

specific sport.

But I always find it fascinating because I know that there is controversy in the body of Christ over those kinds of things, but I did

have interviews specifically on those controversies.

But I think it is always a good thing when somebody is learning how to protect their lives

and especially the lives of others, because that could be an enormous act of mercy

and heroism rather than just waiting for the

police to respond to your 911 call when it's too late.

You're also the senior pastor of Devereux Baptist Church in Sparta, Georgia.

Let us know about that church.

We're a small congregation.

We're about 30 or so.

It's a

reformed...

My sermons have the reform leaning toward the 1689.

We do a lot of reciting of the confessions, the creeds, literally verse by verse.

Samuel, this Sunday...

Coming up on 15 years I've been at this church, I

believe I'm coming up on the second -longest time of a pastor in over 100 -plus years there.

And you don't see many pastors staying that long at churches anymore, and that's really where

your discipleship in advance...

Church, we started with, when I got there, with about 18, and we've

doubled, tripled.

Percentage -wise, we've grown.

A lot of people say, oh, a church of 30, but if you take any church and you

double it,

the Lord is working as well.

Amen.

And obviously, numeric size of a church cannot be

on its own a litmus test for true biblical growth.

It's numeric growth, obviously, but you could have a church

packed to the gills with thousands of people, and you might not even have a single

regenerate soul in the building, including the pastors and the elders,

even if they are professedly evangelical and professedly Bible -believing.

So I never, and no one, should ever dismiss

the value and the health of a church by its

numeric size, because it may be, especially in the geographic area that they're in, that the truth is so

unpopular, people do not want to go there.

Well, that's exactly true.

And I've found that, and I get a grief

disparaging remarks about numbers constantly, and, oh, you're not doing this and not doing that, and

they want to give me a formula.

And I was like, the formula doesn't

matter.

And that's what I've done faithfully.

And I've brought people in over the years who

God has sovereignly brought in and regenerated them,

and

planting, we're

just doing a lot of great things.

Praise God.

And now we come to the fact that you are a licensed professional counselor

at Stop, Inc.

And I had, I remember at the G3 conference, I had a fairly in -depth

interview with you about two years ago, where you were going in -depth

about your counseling with convicted sex offenders.

And it was kind of interesting.

I think I was talking to Andrew Rappaport during my interview with him.

And he was saying to me, you know, Frank Mullis, I never see him depressed or in a bad

mood.

And I was shocked by that, because you're talking all day long to people who are guilty of

the worst of crimes.

There are people who might say that, especially when it comes to children, the

molestation of a child is worse than killing somebody.

But if you could, tell us about this ministry of yours as a

licensed.

Professional counselor at Stop, Inc. and elsewhere.

Yes, I'm a thousand miles a week, over

four days, working with

counseling.

Many of them are

on parole serving for...

So any criminal in Georgia, any violent crime, I'm going to

deal with.

And it's been growing over the years with the number of violent offenders I deal with.

I used to deal with only one adult rapist

group, and then, you know, I'm dealing with multiple per group.

And then I was dealing with one murderer per city, and now I deal with multiple murderers per city.

And so, you know, I think it's the defunding of the criminal system

that's freeing up a lot of the

Georgia

counseling topics with

these men, both men and women.

And we deal with it from a cognitive behavioral standpoint.

I work for the state.

You know, I tend to be, I am at times able to share

too individually, again,

you know, as it

is in my

family as well.

My family,

it's an interesting field that God has put me in, and I tell you that

if I'm depressed,

I don't know it.

And it'll be, it usually takes me about six or seven or even eight months to realize I've been

going through depression.

I just, yeah, it is.

I'm more of a manic person.

You know, I have been diagnosed with kind of an ADD.

I'm always up and going.

And it's usually when I'm probably kind of an introvert that I

start realizing, well, maybe I need to start.

Dealing with some issues.

Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing that you don't recognize you're depressed?

I mean, I would even, my first impulse would be to say, isn't that impossible?

Because the very fact that someone is depressed, it's something that they are

mentally conscious of.

It's a downer, if you will.

It's something that is making them morbidly introspective about their own

flaws or circumstances or what have you, or even their loved

ones.

They might be going through trials and tribulations, or they might have died or what have you.

Well, I tell you, one of the things that I dealt

with, family members or close friends who died.

There was a deacon, a

lady who I was very close to at a former church, her husband, she passed away suddenly.

And I dealt with one of my close pastor friends who died of

cancer and one of my uncles, and then my grandmother passed away.

And then October, two years ago, my supervisor, who

had basically been my

counselor, mentored

me into a six or seven

months.

I sought counseling for that.

You have a buildup, and I'm the type of person who stays busy.

Obviously, you see with all of the various things you say I do, I stay

very busy.

So staying busy is one of those ways that I avoid introspecting.

A lot of people do too.

And I would imagine that beating the living stink out of somebody can

help let out that aggression and make you feel better.

Well, I'll tell you, one of the signs

that I was depressed, I didn't want to get out on the mat and

have the energy.

I have one of my close Christian brothers, he's always

at me getting my goat about not training.

He was absolutely right.

I found myself not enjoying the things that you do.

That's one of the symptoms and signs of depression is when you stop doing the things that you enjoy

doing.

And those are one of the signs you can look at if you have someone in your life who suddenly just stopped going and

stopped doing the things that they enjoy doing.

One of the things I found and noticed, I was like, why don't I enjoy doing this?

You know, kind of introspect.

Because you're always in the

process.

Yes.

Well, just to

correct you, I

believe that.

You may have referred to me as a pastor.

I'm not a pastor.

I'm just a lowly talk show host.

I'm not even sure that the church where I'm a member wants me as a member, let alone a pastor.

I'm not even sure they want me taking a pew space there.

I'm only kidding.

No, they seem to love me very much, especially my two new pastors there.

And so I'm very happy.

The skills and experiences that you have had, I'm assuming

they had some bearing on Anthony, I'm sorry, Andrew Rappaport

inviting you to be on the roster at this upcoming conference, Sanctification Through Suffering.

If you could, maybe I'm totally wrong on that.

He might have just invited you because of your biblical knowledge.

But why do you think that you make a good fit on the speaking roster in regard to

Sanctification Through Suffering?

Well,.

I noticed you had, I want to get her name right too.

That's right.

Justin Peters is coming on.

Wednesday, March 13th for our listeners who love the ministry of Justin Peters.

And if you don't know Justin or don't know about him, you've got to discover Justin Peters and

make use of his preaching and teaching materials and hear him speak in person and

public venues because he is absolutely extraordinary.

And Colleen is actually returning for the second time on Tuesday, March 12th, the day before Justin Peters

interview, but I'm sorry,.

I interrupted

you.

Oh no, and

my degrees, obviously in counseling

associates and master's in psychology.

I have a master of divinity and biblical counseling from Southeastern and

I'm in my

last semester of dissertation, Lord willing, and I'm

graduating in May,

and so I think that's part of the reason is I have the counseling experience and the

pastoral experience over the years of dealing with many, many different people who deal with suffering.

They themselves are dealing with

mental illness, dealing with depression, their own trauma

growing up as children.

People who commit crimes, obviously some of them have criminal personalities

and the majority of them,

and I deal with

people who have hurt people

hurting.

I deal with people who are grieving

of loss of loved ones.

And so I've just had a lot of experience of dealing with that.

One of the things about being a pastor of smaller churches, they tend to be older congregations.

So I've done way more funerals than I

have when a man of sorrow is acquainted

with that, but so many

through them all in so many ways, and he's

able to give us peace.

So thankful that I think that's

the main reason why Andrew.

You just reminded me of a J .C. Ryle.

Quote.

I love that 19th century evangelical Anglican bishop, J

.C. Ryle, and I may not be quoting him exactly the way he worded

it, but he said, Jesus was a man of sorrows and acquainted of grief.

None have such an opportunity of learning the mind of a suffering Savior as suffering disciples.

I really value that quote because it helps bring into perspective, as

we read in Romans 8 .28, and we know that God causes all things to work together

for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.

We put that into work in our lives when we are

responding to suffering appropriately by not only

being more dependent upon God, but also comforting others with the same comfort that

we have been comforted with.

And we're going to go to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at

gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

I can understand that a subject like this, sanctification through suffering, would readily lend itself

to people asking personal and private questions, so I can totally understand

that, and I will give you the option to remain anonymous.

But if it's just a general question, a general question on theology, a question on how you may be of service

to those that you know or love when they are suffering,

please at least give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

And don't go away, God willing we'll be right back after these messages with more of Frank Mullis.

And sanctification through suffering.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier

Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church NYC.

They are a reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching

in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS

Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of holy scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of scripture

and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of God's people.

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at www .irbsseminary .org.

I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia in a township called

Kabanana who are taking care of 24 orphans.

I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do?

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The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need.

Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans?

Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel,

Mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com.

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi

39443 or bbclaurel .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Frank Mullis

and Frank is a licensed counselor and he has spent most of his time in

that field counseling convicted criminals and sex offenders and he

is on the roster of an upcoming conference.

I've got to keep my grammar straight here.

He is on the roster at the Striving for Eternity conference on the theme of

sanctification through suffering.

Can you tell us a little bit more about this conference, Frank?

Oh yeah, this weekend it's going to be

located at the Chinese American Bible Church in Freehold, New Jersey and

it's March 15th and 16th.

And for more information, I just want to send to eternity .org

backslash conference on suffering and it'll be Justin Peters, the

world famous.

He'd be so mad, you know, if I said that he was the world famous Justin Peters.

He is a very humble man.

He's one of the most humble men I know.

He's a

theology gal.

A breakout session and Colleen will be meeting with the women specifically and from your

many different

issues that

were on

India

and

Delta that he even has,

if you

did.

And we

will be repeating.

That website during the course of this program,

but I am urging all of you who live anywhere near New Jersey

to head out there.

This is sure to be something that benefits you and will enable you to even further benefit

others.

So just make sure you write down strivingforeternity .org,

strivingforeternity .org and all the information is on the website.

And don't be confused by the Chinese American Bible Church.

Obviously, the conference is not in.

Chinese.

You're just renting that facility.

Right.

That's correct.

Actually, I believe they are giving it to us for free.

Andrew.

Oh, wow.

I didn't know that.

Okay.

And what we have,.

We have an anonymous listener with a question already.

Okay.

Hi, Chris and Frank.

Do you believe that God has actually, I got to enlarge

my email here.

Sorry about that, folks.

Do you believe that God has actually designed our sufferings?

I know that God can use it to sanctify us and also use it for his glory, but do you

believe he actually designed them specifically as I have heard this taught?

It is difficult to understand how a Christian wife can be physically, emotionally, mentally, and

sexually abused and be told by Christian leaders it is her fault because she is not

submissive.

How can this be?

I know people are responsible for their own actions, but how can it be taught that God designs our

sufferings?

Something that puzzles me often.

Yeah, that's a huge issue that it's called the theodicy.

It's defending the fact that God is a God of love and mercy and grace in a

world that is filled with calamity and violence and evil and even

quote, quote, natural disasters, you know, like earthquakes and tornadoes and things,

floods, fires that destroy many lives, sometimes thousands at once.

So let's have you answer her first question.

Do you believe that God has actually designed our sufferings?

And it seems perhaps as if she also means by the word designed that he has

ordained or that he has predetermined our sufferings.

Well, being one of

the

there

seems to be something behind the question always.

There's something up front.

Here's an example.

I dealt with this person, someone who

commits suicide.

My response to them, are you thinking about suicide?

So I'm always careful in how I respond to someone theologically because

I want to make sure we understand what the person

is experiencing or going through before I give a theological statement.

Now, since they acted in a theological way, of course, being reformed, I believe all

things.

Now, I tend to be, if we're talking theologically, I'm in for a

laugh at some people.

But I believe that God has ordained it.

I think the book of Job is quite clear by design,

allowed Satan to cause the suffering that Job went through.

And so when we take of certain things that take place in our lives, we know that God,

now, does he ordain it in such a way that he is the primary

cause?

That is a matter of, I

tend to believe that God is

moving things.

Only when we look at Paul, God

wouldn't remove it.

Again, yes, I think God is designed it, but he's

designed it in a certain way in which we could,

and it ultimately is for our good.

Now, I will say all things good, certainly not in that

they are working.

Toward good.

How would you respond?

Well, I am also reformed, as you know, and it is clear

that a sinful, finite, fallible creature could never

thwart the will of God, could never stifle God from

his purpose being accomplished exactly the way he desires it to.

So, even though these things are difficult for us to understand, and we may never understand them

this side of glory, in fact, I know that we'll never fully understand them this side of glory, we just

have to contend with the fact of what the Bible teaches.

And, for instance, the very death of

Jesus Christ, the perfect, spotless Lamb, the only sinless

man that ever lived and was 100 obedient to his Father, his death, in

order to redeem his people from their sins, involved the wicked acts

of sinful men.

They involved the sadism of

wicked Roman soldiers, the heresy and the blasphemy

of the Jews that cried out for his death.

They involved murder.

Jesus Christ was murdered.

But, all of that was done with his own consent and

volition, and it was all orchestrated before the foundations of the world by a holy,

righteous, and loving God.

He gave his only begotten Son.

So, there you have a

clear teaching in the scripture that you have men who are guilty

of killing the Son of God, the God -man,

the only holy and righteous and perfect person that ever walked the face of the earth.

They are guilty, and those who have not come, or should I say in past tense, those who

had not come to faith and repentance while on this earth are going to be,

and are now, even being punished in hell because of what they did.

But, at the same time, God is the one that ordained it.

So, these are things that I don't think that we can fully understand, and never will.

I don't know if you want to add anything to that as well.

Well, I think when being

blamed, does it

be in their fault?

And there are obviously

certain,

and I can't think of a theological term for it right now, but where the Pharisees

were blind, the sin of the blind, and then Jesus

said, you know, he's born blind, that he may bring glory to God.

And so, we have to be very careful of anyone's suffering, or anything

anyone's going through, that the first thing

that we

colleen is that it's very easy to

point to someone who's

got, and it may be true, you know, some suffering is the

result of

multiple, and I

will make an argument,

is that

slacking within her, but it's one of the

reasons, and I'm going to point this out at the conference, I believe one of so much

is very poor understanding.

We don't have a true understanding of

we, if

you

follow Christ, you're going

to suffer.

I mean, that's just as plain and simple.

So, we have to be ready to suffer, and be prepared to suffer.

And we need to have a good.

Just to add to the fact that God is sovereign over evil acts,

even though he never himself sins, being perfect, and holy, and righteous.

He is not the author of sin, but he is in sovereign control over it.

And this, I'm not, I don't want my listeners to think that I'm mixing this with our listeners

situation where the listener was the victim, or is the victim, or was the victim,

where there were wicked individuals involved other than herself.

But we have, in this case, someone suffering because

of his own wickedness, and it's someone who is the apple of God's

own eye.

David, if you remember, when David committed adultery with

Bathsheba, wanted to cover it up when she got pregnant, didn't want her husband, Uriah the

Hittite, to know that she was pregnant by

him, David, while he was on the battlefield being a soldier.

So he not only committed the sin of adultery, but he also committed the sin of murder by

arranging for Uriah the Hittite to be murdered on the battlefield, and therefore he

would not be able to discover the wickedness of David and his adultery with his wife.

Then you have Nathan the prophet confronting David, and this is, I can't think of a

more clear passage in the God -breathed words of scriptures where you

have God declaring his own control over evil acts.

It begins in 2 Samuel 12 verse 9,

why have you, this is Nathan the prophet speaking, this is God, I should say, speaking

through Nathan the prophet to David, why have you

despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in his sight?

You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have

killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon.

Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house because you have despised me and have

taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.

Thus says the Lord, behold I will raise up evil

against you from your own household.

I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion,

and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.

Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all.

Israel and under the sun.

Those are pretty astonishing words, aren't they?

And notice that David

sinned not only upon himself but upon his family and his defendants.

Right, and his child.

Died.

We don't have any indication that the child suffered, it was in some kind of pain or anything, but the child

who had nothing to do with the sin died as a result.

So this is just further evidence that people find comfort in thinking,

and I think this is very odd, it might be initially understandable why somebody would

try to find comfort in God not being a part of their suffering in any way because they

think, well God loves me too much, he would never want this to happen to me, this is all about the devil and sinful people and so

on and so on.

But when you think about that long and hard enough, that is a very terrifying notion to

think that God's will is being thwarted and overcome by wicked

people, by wicked, finite, fallible, mortal men are

thwarting the very desires of God for you?

How could anyone sleep at night if they really consistently, logically added all of

those elements together in their lives and knew that somehow the devil got the.

Better of God in the case of your suffering?

Right, and I believe it is when he numbered the people and God had

told him not to, I believe, and God was going to punish them.

He gave David the choice, and I think one was his enemies coming into captivity, and I think

one was the pestilence, and he chose the one sent by God because he said, who knows that God might be

merciful.

Suffering is that even if God is allowing the suffering, that we know that he's a loving and

merciful God and he may relent, and

that's what we have to deal with.

I mean, just Satan to come in

to his life, and is

an awesome God, but he's also who

does things according to his will and his purpose and his plan, and his ways are higher

than our ways.

We don't understand his will, and I don't even know if we'll truly understand it, as

you said, and certainly not in this life, but in the life to come, who knows?

He may not even reveal it to us then.

We might not care.

Yeah, we may not care, and we may have forgotten all about it, but we know that, look,

and this is the thing is, if this is our best life now, we're in trouble.

You're obviously quoting Joel Osteen.

I didn't want to mention his name.

Oh, that's fine.

Well, I know that John MacArthur said that if your best life is now,.

That means you're headed for hell.

Yeah, that's exactly right, and look, what is it, 70, 80, 90 years at the most,

you know, that you're going to have to suffer?

What is eternity with a loving, merciful, gracious God

compared to that, where we will be and we will suffer?

I mean, that is the hope.

Amen, and we have to go to our midway break right now.

The midway break is longer than normal.

It's longer because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida,

who airs this program, they need to air commercials and public service announcements that reflect

their locality there in Florida, so they air their own announcements during this

break.

We air different ones, and so during this time, I'm asking you to

please write down all the information that our advertisers provide

because that way you can more frequently and successfully

patronize our advertisers, and remember, we rely upon our advertisers to

exist.

The very fact that we are on the air is the result, obviously, of God's grace, but

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Welcome back, this is Chris.

Ornzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is Frank Mullis,

who is a licensed Christian counselor, and he also primarily

deals with clients, patients if you will, who are convicted

offenders, criminals, especially sex offenders.

And today we are addressing the theme of sanctification through suffering, which is the theme

of a conference where Frank is on the roster, the speaking roster, coming up very shortly in New

Jersey, and we are going to be continuing our discussion with Frank on that theme momentarily.

But right now, I just have a few announcements to make.

First of all, I'm going to announce some of the details on the conference I was just mentioning.

The Sanctification Through Suffering Conference is being held March 15th through the 16th in

Freehold, New Jersey, and the roster includes Justin Peters, who is a phenomenal speaker

that you don't want to miss, a man who has battled cerebral palsy nearly his entire life and

has just shined with the light of Christ amidst his suffering, and

you don't want to miss him.

If you can take a plane, train, or automobile to hear Justin Peters speak, you should take every

advantage of that opportunity.

Also, the guest that I am now interviewing, Frank Mullis, as I was saying, he is a part of this speaking

roster and a phenomenal speaker in his own right.

Joe Swozo, I'm going to be relying upon the discernment of Andrew

Rappaport and the folks there because I don't know Joe yet and I haven't interviewed Joe yet, but hopefully I will be able to get him on this

program soon.

And Colleen Sharp, who we had on just recently and are going to have Colleen

back on the program again.

They are the four speakers at the Sanctification Through Suffering Conference March 15th through the 16th.

For more details, go to strivingforeternity .org,

strivingforeternity .org.

Then coming up, not long after that, I am going to be once again attending

the Banner of Truth Conference, the East Coast Ministers Conference.

That's being held May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the Elizabethtown College.

The theme is, I Believe in the Holy Spirit.

Speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, who is a Reformed Baptist missionary

in France, Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college

founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.

That's May 26th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

And once again, the theme is, I Believe in the Holy Spirit.

If you want to register for this conference, the East Coast Ministers Conference, go to

banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org, click events, and then click on East Coast

Ministers Conference, and I look forward to seeing you there.

There are other conferences that might be closer to you.

We have listeners all over the world in the Iron Sharpens Iron audience, so we know that we have folks on the West Coast where

they have another conference, and there are also listeners in the UK that we hear from

regularly, and there are UK conferences, so attend the

conference that you will more likely be able to travel to, and we hope that you tell the

folks at Banner of Truth that you heard about the conference on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Last but not least, the Foundations Conference is coming to Manhattan once again.

I love this conference.

December 19th and the 20th in New York City, and if

you intend to register for this conference, I would do so as quickly as possible because the venue is very

small.

They only can seat about 200 people at this conference in Manhattan.

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, whose voice you just heard a few moments ago,

advertising a client of mine, New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan.

Stephen J. Lawson was the professor of the pastor there, Andy Woodard, and they have become

advertisers of mine, and I value them very much for wanting to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air,

so we thank Stephen J. Lawson for doing the ad for them.

Reverend Jeff Thomas, who is now retired from pastoral ministry in Wales.

He is just an extraordinary brother in Christ, a powerful preacher, phenomenal,

fascinating author, and with all these gifts, he's still an incredibly humble brother in Christ.

I look forward to hearing him preach again.

Richard Caldwell Jr. is on the roster.

Reverend Armand Tomassian, who, although not globally well -known right

now, he is going to be, if my gut feelings come to

fruition, because this man is extraordinary.

This young man, Armand Tomassian, another powerful, powerful preacher and teacher,

and yet simultaneously extremely humble, and I really love this brother.

I have interviewed him and intend to interview him again, often, God willing.

And Andrew Quigley, who I don't know yet, but I trust the discernment of the folks at Sermon

Audio who are orchestrating this conference, and they must know that Andrew Quigley is an

excellent teacher and preacher.

If you want more information on registering for this conference, the Foundations Conference, December 19th and the 20th,

go to thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference

.com, and please tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arns and

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Buy your bibles from nasbible .com.

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Now we are back with our guest Frank Mullis.

If you have a question on suffering our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com and please as always give us your first name

at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA

and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We have Tyler from Eastern

Suffolk County, Long Island and Tyler asks

does God use suffering as a means for our sanctification to make us more like the Lord Jesus?

Well I think the fact that we've been advertising a conference called Sanctification Through

Suffering kind of gave that answer away.

But Frank maybe you want to be more detailed.

Yeah absolutely I think that's the

teaching of many different things.

One of which he's teaching is perseverance.

I think that is one of the things that Bible's quite clear on is that when we

persevere through many trials and

tribulations.

One of the pastors I served under he always said, Frank never pray for patience.

He said because God's going to send you trials and tribulations.

So when sufferings truly understand

I think God's glory a lot

more.

When we are at happiest

I don't know if we really recognize our need for God as much a lot of times even

as we often forget it seems that when Israel

was going through the good times it seems that they often fell into

wickedness but God brings them down to suffering.

Suddenly they're turning back to God and so a lot of ways our suffering brings us

to our knees a lot.

I know when my wife and I through the years when hard times came I noticed

that we prayed a lot more together.

We turn to study I

think absolutely that God is teaching us and

sanctifying us and that we're growing in him.

Thanks a lot Tyler and perhaps you should.

Make every effort to be there at this conference in New Jersey because obviously as you know

Eastern Suffolk County Long Island is not very far from Freehold New Jersey.

So why don't you go to strivingforeternity .org and get

all the information you need about attending this conference March 15th through the 16th right around the corner

and make sure that you tell the folks there that you heard about the conference from Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

Let's see here we have we have John

and Bangor Maine who says seeing that your guest is a

counselor of criminals and sexual offenders I'm assuming that the

suffering that some of them may be going through if they do not have to seared a

conscious is a very different kind of suffering because it is guilt of their own

wickedness that is causing the suffering and perhaps even multiplied many

times over because of the suffering their own loved ones are experiencing through the horrifying

embarrassment and perhaps scandal that has brought into their lives.

How do you counsel those who are going through this suffering because of their own actions and of

course I'm assuming it would be different if the person is a Christian who has now come to repentant

faith and if the person is still in their sin.

Exactly my chief

in a sense of

to society from these guys in that teaching them

ways in which they can learn to control

themselves and pray to the Lord you know in my own

mind that they will not reoffend.

The good news on at least from a secular standpoint is that reoffense rates are much

lower than that than people want to make them out to be.

Another level.

There is no there is

no true

the evil as

dealing with these guys many of them

with many guys who do not see as

evil many of them deny they did anything.

They often blame crime that they

they harmed many of them.

That's why there

are many

many many of these guys

wanting to

continue

ministries

through

themselves finding the Bible in prison from finding a

witness to them while they were in prison.

I've come to know the Lord with their

I guess

dealt with their own sinfulness in a way in which they have been able to

deal with their guilt and deal with

what they see.

You know I think Paul

with guilt over the death with Stephen throughout his life.

You know I think he knew that he was forgiven with Stephen but I think Paul still

dealt with some of that.

I think it bothered him in some way.

What do you think about that Chris?

Do you think that we still deal with dealing with guilt of people we harmed?

Yeah I would imagine that I don't know if I could think right now of a specific text that

deals with the battle of remorse and guilt and depression other than the

fact that he clearly identified himself as the chief of sinners.

And of course it's even more than Stephen.

I mean he rounded up men and women to be

executed for their Christian faith almost like a member of a Jewish Gestapo.

I mean he was right he was a very evil man doing things

that he believed were glorifying to God.

But I would be shocked if being a Christian filled with the Holy

Spirit he did not have remorse that was also obviously buffered with the

knowledge of his forgiveness.

And that's an interesting concept because

Christians that I know and even in my own life within my own heart and mind personally

I know that I struggle.

It's a weird thing.

It's almost a schizophrenic kind of a thing and I don't mean it literally

but you are happy and filled with gratitude and praise

for God's mercy in forgiving you and you know that you're not going to hell

after your regeneration and your salvation because of the blood of Christ that redeemed you from every

single sin that you ever committed and you ever will commit.

But even having said that I know Christians and I know myself personally at times when I

start and when they start to feel just prolonged

periods of joy and peace of heart and mind all of a sudden you start to feel guilty about feeling that way

about feeling happy about feeling joyful.

Can you can you speak on that uh is it appropriate for a

Christian who has been forgiven of his sins or her sins and

yet who is guilty of horrible things.

Especially people like those that you counsel.

Some of them may come to Christ or maybe they already have.

How do you balance that notion of embracing the joy of being redeemed

and forgiven and having the penalty paid for.

And at the same time there may be people still alive who are suffering greatly because of things that

you've done.

Yeah you know and you know I struggle with you know things that

I've said or done to people in my you know that I love and and uh

sometimes they haven't got over it you know you know you you've expressed from

they've said that they've forgiven you they

something some memory pops into your mind uh maybe something they said kind of triggers that you

remember I can't believe that I said or I did that to them uh thank you you know I would I'd

immediately thank God for his forgiveness um and

that we are going to as humans we're going to struggle with the flesh we're you know and in a sense

it may be just Satan you know uh some demonic uh presence

that is wanting to uh wanting you to um be reminded of things that you've done.

And I mean that guilt uh that we uh experience we we remember

that um been forgiven you know and that and speaking of sanctification

justification is the fact that God has pronounced us not guilty through the blood

of Jesus Christ.

Sanctification is the process in which we are continually growing and

cooperating.

I think you and Colleen kind of discussed um

as we grow in Christ we learn to deal with that uh guilt

we learn to deal with uh understanding accepting God's forgiveness and we uh

become and we're renewing our mind and we are applying the principle

not fluctuating so much between.

Uh we have let's see Arnie in Perry County Pennsylvania who has a question.

We are supposed to take comfort in the words of scripture that say that Jesus

was tempted in all ways such as we are.

But how could that be true.

If Jesus obviously never contemplated or fantasized about things like

committing adultery and things that are sinful how could he have he been tempted in

ways such as we are in every single one of those ways and yet we know that he never

sinned.

This seems to me to be contradictory.

I guess that somehow relates to our to our uh topic on suffering.

Because people can suffer because they may be battling uh wicked

desires and it brings them suffering.

It brings suffering in their lives.

Either because of the guilt and grief that they feel over this or because

they are perhaps uh not experiencing some kind of

fulfillment in their life.

Uh for instance if uh if somebody is single and they are constantly battling

lust and there is a particular reason in their life where they can never be married you know

that could bring suffering.

So I'm just trying to connect the.

Question to what we're talking about.

Well I would I would seek to answer it in a different way in a more theological way.

You know a lot of people look at the uh that you know

if he was God he could not have sinned.

So it wasn't true temptation.

I think that first Adam was

tempted and he failed.

Um Adam you know

we we uh were destined to hell.

And we see that Christ was tempted in every way.

He was tempted in every way.

But he did not see a perfect life for us.

Um that we place faith in that perfection and that he gives us his righteousness.

And and that is the one

that we we often forget that

is his righteousness.

And so it is that he was tempted.

Yeah.

But he didn't fail when we when we are tempted we often fail.

But through Jesus Christ he lived it a perfect life so we can place that faith in him.

And we know that when we stand we're going to be found

guiltless because we have.

The righteousness of Christ.

Now uh I believe that there is some clarification that is required in regard to

the terminology of temptation because especially the way we use it in our modern right

understanding whenever somebody says that they're tempted or

perhaps at least most of the time and not be all of the time we are summoning up in our

minds the idea of somebody who is looking at a woman in a bathing suit and going wow I

really really want to do something with this woman that I shouldn't be doing.

Or it could be a whole host of things.

Somebody sees a uh a purse unattended in a waiting room and they see

money bulging out of it.

And wow I could really use that money right now.

Probably more than that person.

Jesus never did that.

Because those that action even if it's confined to somebody's

imagination is sin.

Even if they don't consummate the thought into a physical action or deed it's still sin.

I mean Jesus himself said that you've committed adultery already if you just uh

lust after a woman.

Uh so obviously in fact that was shocked years ago in the 1990s when I worked for a major Christian radio

station.

Uh when I heard well actually it was like five people independently of each other told me that

they had heard a very famous Christian radio host say that Jesus

frequently wanted to commit sin but never yielded to that temptation.

Well wanting to commit sin is a sin.

So we know that Jesus we know Jesus didn't get tempted in that way.

So so should we assume then that it was completely and strictly an external

temptation that he received in every way that we have.

Well I I would say you know very.

Much in the similar way in which Satan uh when he took uh Christ to various places in the wilderness

and tempted him um that's an offer to sin

it's not a it's more of the offering of sin.

You know I'm sure there were prostitutes who who came to him and said come with me uh I'm sure that there

were probably people offering him uh to imbibe to drunk so

it was almost the constant offering.

I think in a sense that that's what it's talking about.

He saw the allure of greed and and lust and all of these

things and he rejected it all.

Well we have to we have to go to our final break right.

Now it's a lot more brief than the last one uh but if you want to send in a question do it now because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right.

Back with frank mollis.

Tired of box store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship.

And how about the preaching.

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island.

Well there's good news.

Wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

featuring the systematic exposition of god's word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631

-929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc

.us.

That's wrbc .us.

Assistant professor of systematic theology at irbs theological seminary in mansfield texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because i'm firmly convinced that the people of

god in the churches of our lord jesus christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth

of holy scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of scripture

and even the doctrine of the person and work of jesus christ.

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

to all of god's people.

If you want to learn more about our program visit us online at irbs seminary .org.

My name is steve.

Lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for ligonier ministries

i serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the master's seminary in los angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students andy woodard serves as the pastor.

It's called new covenant church nyc.

They are a reformed baptist church that meets in midtown manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website which is www

.ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign god who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching which is simply biblical preaching

in new york city i'd like to recommend that you visit new covenant church nyc

again.

Their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day.

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Welcome back.

This is chris.

Arnzen and this is the final segment of iron sharpens iron radio today with our guest frank mullis.

We are talking about sanctification through suffering.

If you want to send in an email do it right now because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Uh we have uh susan margaret in dalton county pennsylvania who asks

must we not be very careful not to judge others because of their suffering

automatically assuming that they are being punished by god.

Frank are you there.

Yes okay.

Could you uh respond to the question.

Yes.

Um yeah.

She's absolutely correct.

Um that that um you know as i mentioned earlier we we must be very careful when

we see someone that is going through um some trial or tribulation as i mentioned uh the

same in the context of joe and joe's friends joe's wife.

Uh we we see uh where the pharisees tried to blame someone's uh

illness on their mother or father's sin.

So we we need to immediately uh not place a judgment until we get more

information.

Now there obviously are people who work

with they they're suffering financially.

They are suffering uh emotionally.

They're they're in many aspects because they have

harmed uh people in their life.

They've harmed others they've harmed society.

And yes uh some some of our suffering is the times

uh we've got to be careful expel movement that is out there today.

That points to everything uh illness.

We as christians must must uh defend.

Yes and we've been talking about uh your fellow speaker at

the upcoming conference.

Sanctification through suffering.

Uh march 15th and 16th in new jersey.

Uh your fellow speaker justin peters is basically made his primary life's mission uh

second to the gospel of jesus christ of course uh to expose the word of faith.

Movement teachers for their very dangerous heresies.

And uh harmful teachings.

And uh jay uh justin and i also have developed a mutual friendship with costy

hen the nephew of benny hen one of the worst one of the worst culprits in this heresy.

And costy has repented of that heresy and is now a reformed baptist.

And not only a reformed baptist but a cessationist.

Um wow.

So i'm looking forward to uh trying to get costy out here to pennsylvania at some point

in the future.

And i would love to have have that happen soon.

But he's very busy right now.

But i will keep everybody up to date on that.

I want you to have at least three minutes of uninterrupted time now to unburden your heart and leave our

listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds regarding this topic today.

Or to uh

that you're

you're not alone number one uh whether it's depression or

loved one you're you're not alone out there.

Um there are many many struggles.

Um you see it uh in scripture uh with job and jeremiah.

Uh you see david which we've already talked about uh you see paul uh you see others

who writes himself.

Uh was a man of sorrow grave knowing that he was about to

raising from the dead.

Uh he still grieved with others.

Um i think that that we need to understand that uh

scripture is a comfort to us that we should turn to scripture we began

to suffer.

We can read many passages uh in regards to that i would suggest uh

if you're going through depression uh psalm 43 psalm 42 are excellent passages

that talk multitude of going through the philippians and

and reading through the book of philippians that speaks of joy that can help us out in in times.

We need to learn to live by faith and not by our circumstances.

Remember our circumstances are temporary uh and learn to trust in the lord jesus christ.

Um psalm 32 reminds us if we're suffering to go and look for uh that

uncondensed sin like you mentioned chris earlier about introspecting that we may that we may have sin in our

life that we have not repented of.

And that we need to deal with.

And there may be you

know you're

going through.

And that those things change.

Then you need to learn to change 16 to be i

keep using the

word home there a

friend of mine

to be

is learn to be content in our circumstance.

I'm never content.

That's why i couldn't think of the word is learn to be content in our

circumstance.

Say if you're not not

need to feel simply need medication

need a good counsel hurting your suffering.

And you don't know the lord jesus christ.

You need to turn to him and place your faith and and repent of your amen.

And of course.

I'm assuming that you don't rule out people uh being prescribed medication as long as you know

absolutely absolutely not.

And i know that's a whole different topic for a program different topic because there are there are doctors that dole

out medications like candy that wind up.

Ruining people's lives.

But uh and i'm surprised that wasn't a question.

Run the middle of the gambit with that.

Um i think that there's those who don't want

to.

I'm the middle of the road there.

Okay well we're out of time.

Make sure you go to striving for eternity .org for more information about the conference on march 15th

and the 16th.

I want to thank you so much frank for being my guest today.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you

are a sinner amen.