August 5, 2019 Show with Dr. Michael A. G. Haykin on “Augustine: His Life & Legacy (& Why 21st Century Protestants Should Never Ignore Or Forget this 4th & 5th Century Bishop of Hippo, North Africa)”

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Wishing you all a happy Monday and.

Today's date is the 5th of August 2019.

I'm so thrilled to have back as a returning guest today one of my favorite guests of all

time Dr. Michael A .G. Haken who is professor of church history and biblical

spirituality and director of the Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist

Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

He's also a prolific writer and conference speaker.

Today we are going to be discussing Augustin his life and legacy and why

21st century Protestants should never ignore or forget this 4th and 5th century Bishop of Hippo, North

Africa.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio my friend. Dr. Michael A .G.

Haken and Tell us something about for our listeners who are

discovering you for the first time.

Who are unfamiliar with the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky?

Tell us about that seminary and also about your post there.

Yes,

it's

largest seminary at

1590s.

I'm

actually

teaching at

Southern.

Yeah, ha ha.

And.

Of course, you also have a history with Toronto Baptist Seminary where my dear friend our mutual

dear friend.

Dr. Tony Costa serves as the professor of apologetics and Islam.

Yes, I was there.

I was principal there for a number of years full -time at Southern.

Yes, and I just met recently for the first time in Franklin, Tennessee the current principal. Dr. Willem.

Yes.

Excellent, whose brother Stephen Willem is one of your colleagues over at Southern, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, I had a wonderful time of lunch with them in addition to being with them at the conference and I

actually was the moderator of the question -and -answer session between the guest speakers in the

audience and Both of the Willem brothers were on the panel of that Q &A and I had a great

time moderating that.

Excellent.

One thing if you could clarify to our listeners, what is biblical spirituality.

Where you are a Subject over which you are a professor.

One of the areas where you are a professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Well, it's spirituality that

is word in our culture.

I wanted

to make sure that

when you

really deal it exactly as a

Christian and it deals at

the.

Great.

Well, if anybody wants to find out more about the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, the website

is Sbts .edu

Sbts .edu.

And I just thought I'd let you know perhaps after the show you might even want to let somebody at the Southern Baptist Seminary

Know that the website is not working today at least not not in Pennsylvania.

It's not you're not in here in my studio.

But perhaps it's just some kind of a glitch going on.

Yeah, hopefully it's just a glitch.

But.

We also want to give you our email address here in the event that anybody wants to add a

question to our discussion today.

With dr. Michael AG Haken on Augustin his life and legacy.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's C H R. I s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

And.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and.

Already we have a just a little comment from one of our listeners in Cork, Ireland.

Mary in Cork, Ireland Says he goes to Munster Bible College, too.

He doesn't know me.

Is he is she referring to you or dr. Wellin because I know dr. Wellin goes there.

Yeah, both of us.

I was involved in the founding of Munster Bible College and dr. Wellin has been over a number of times

great.

Well.

Augustin is considered by many Christians To be

the greatest mind of Christendom.

Outside of those Who contributed to the canon of of the scriptures.

The inerrant God breathed words of God?

The.

Name Augustin Typically will conjure up reverence and and

awe in the minds And the lips and the writings of many there are a few exceptions I

understand that the Eastern Orthodox just very mildly tolerate Augustine

and of course We have many of our fundamentalist friends Who disassociate

themselves completely with Augustine or any of the church fathers?

Because they I think wrongly broad brush these heroes of the faith with Romanism.

And of course, I think that our Roman Catholic Friends have

Invented an Augustine of their own imagination.

That is far more Romanist than history would prove.

But if you could tell us something about the fascinating story of Augustine

and his coming to faith in Christ And involving his his mother

Monica and and by the way folks today's program is somewhat of an

amazing program to me because Dr. Haken who was originally going to discuss a different topic

Asked me before the show Would you like to discuss Augustine his life and

legacy and I immediately started going through the archive thinking That we have discussed Augustine

many times and it turns out in that what in an entire history of iron sharpens iron radio Going all the way

back to 2005 I have never had Augustine as the sole topic of a

two -hour interview.

He's he's definitely been included As a subject or a subtopic in other

conversations on the air here, but he's never been the full

subject the the center point of Our discussions on this program.

So I was quite amazed by that.

But if I'm glad that you came up with that that Suggestion brother Hagen,

but if you could tell us about how this this pagan Augustine had come to faith in

Christ and I Understand that he also was a very worldly wicked

promiscuous man and so forth.

So if you could tell us about him.

Yes, he's born

in and in

fact, we

know that

you

probably know more about.

T H A G A S T E.

Now sup M O

double

M.

Speaking

North

Africa,

which

is

basically

Algeria going

west was a really

a backwater of

the

road.

He

gave

Augustina to

attend university and anti the only

real opportunity page was a very ancient

it had once been an Henry built it

and So Roman

Carthage

any in our

society.

Deep Deep -seated

involvement in.

And then he reads a book at the age of 18

in 372 and

the book was a and a and.

Gives him a passion

and so he becomes a seeker after truth.

And at the same time also he meets a woman whom he never named whom he

formed a liaison which he was using

her and he his heart

will be deeply wounded when he has to give her up as we'll see.

And

Adi Adonis Ado

DAT

us on his

mother is a professing Christian.

His mother as I said earlier was it he doesn't meet any.

Now are was

he a religious man himself of a in a false?

Religion or was he just as we would call today an atheist.

No, he's not.

Oh, no.

No atheism is virtually unknown in the ancient world I mean there there are some atheists, you know

Lucretius to some degree or other and

so he will actually get bound up with Manichaeanism partly because his

his father runs out of money for his edge named Romani on us.

Augustine gets involved in many

money a Persian 70s ad what

we call

narcissism and the

Manichaeans believe that it got lodged in certain

people be allowed within them

and It was a religion that focused on celibacy and vegetarian

and believe that bits of go to

melons.

I.

Knew I loved those two foods for a reason.

So the more that you ate

and and Augustine thought that the Christians were stupid, okay.

Chesterton one said if a man doesn't believe that yeah.

Brilliant intellectually in

ten

years.

It only

begins

to really

disastrous died in Rome and then he hears about a

university which would be training the.

He's renting

a home among the upper

and

Augustine

will give that up.

And in Milan he

meets

and that

is Ambrose of the

Ambrose's congregation on one occasion actually went out knelt all

they had no weapon.

But their prayers done there and

she's right involved in the life of the church.

You get the impound Augustine start

to go back and what

fascinates him initially was not the content.

Offered being the son of a Roman governor.

Slowly over the three to

three really he

starts to hear becoming man dying.

It's as if he's never heard that he didn't have ears to hear

at the same time.

He's brought in one of the things I have not mentioned

is that it was common

and then through their 20s while they were seeking they

would use her really for sex and.

Then abandoned her and early there in their late 20s when they were established in their careers and married somebody of their own social

mother.

With this

on named

even

along the usual lines

and

marry a younger woman and.

Because you can get married as young as 14.

He proposed and it is accepted

and the marriage set

for 20.

They dispatched that to be

married men start to work.

Unless you're in unless you're an Augustine position and you have the finances to

now just to interrupt you for a second before.

Our listeners just get totally sidetracked with that bit of news that might be shocking to them and just

completely Horrify them and so on.

I was told by an Orthodox Jewish friend that especially In a day and

age where you're discussing but even much more recently perhaps.

As.

She was a hundred years ago or so even in the Orthodox Jewish culture.

Just because you are Considered married to someone it might be an arranged marriage where the

bride is Not only in her teens, but perhaps even younger.

That doesn't mean that the marriage is consummated when the child is that young?

No.

It's like a guarantee That that woman has been preserved or reserved for you.

Exactly, right?

So I didn't want people to think that Augustine was a pedophile or something like that.

That example and

I'm sure

that prayer

has been

uttered

by many

people.

And I think what it does real

problems and I

think this

is true.

He 9 of

people must

be yielded to him

quote his

at the

breaking point

comes in

386.

August of 386.

He is he is visited by a North African a brother named

Ponte Kiana's

and he finds in Augustine's Possession he sees on a table a car.

He's amazed.

He says to see that there.

He thought Augustine that no interest in these things.

He didn't know Augustine that well and he begins to share and as

he shared

I've been 12 years 14 years at this point.

He read that him on the quest

for truth and he was no further ahead.

No, but the key honestly

and in his own and begins to cry.

I think

God.

He hears

a voice and In the Latin, it's totally naked.

But is that a

game that children play.

And then he thought he thinks maybe it's God telling me to go back inside the house.

And pick up Paul's letters and read.

Which he does and the first passage he opens

it and he says

I had no sooner

read that

text and the

light.

No need and he would say you.

Amen.

Now I have hope I have heard that story told in two different ways maybe

more but.

One way that I have heard the story told and perhaps you could either confirm or deny that this is the truth

I've heard it told that he discovered it definitely was children playing and saying to Lele gay

but he took it as a providence of God and the other way I've heard it told it's

more of an agnostic telling of the story where we're not certain whether this was

actually some kind of a revelation or Voice he heard or whether it was nearby

Children playing nearby.

So what what do you know about that story as far as the answer to that?

Okay, and I

mean, okay we

have to go

to our

first break right

now if

anybody

wants to

ask dr.

Haken a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please as always give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go

away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Michael AG Haken and our discussion on Augustin

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is dr Michael

AG Haken.

He is a professor of church history and biblical spirituality and Director of the Andrew Fuller Center

for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

We are discussing Augustin or as some call him Augustine his life and legacy and

Why 21st century Protestants should never ignore or forget this fourth and fifth century bishop of

Hippo North Africa.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com chris ar n

ze n and gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the USA

and please only Remain anonymous if your question involves a personal

and private matter.

That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

We have a listener who also chimed in earlier with a statement

earlier in the program.

We have Mary in Cork, Ireland.

Who asks.

Good afternoon, dr. Hagen.

And Chris, I would be grateful if you could answer this question for me Please.

In the confessions of st. Augustine.

Why did Augustine take so much time?

Narrating the story of Marius Victorinus and his conversion

and Christian witness after 363.

Shall you answer that first or I'm only kidding.

I have no idea.

Example.

Again, like Augustine a very high.

You're gonna

have to share

your testimony and then we'll.

That's something you

can hide

under.

Augustine narrate some ways he finds himself identifying with Marius

Christianity quietly quickly, but

Christianity demands a lot more than that.

So the the story of Marius, I think is narrated in its book aid of the confession.

Well, thank

you.

Thank you, Mary in Cork, Ireland.

Keep listening to our show and keep spreading the word about it in Cork, Ireland and beyond and keep submitting those excellent

questions.

Where we left off before the break was the pick up and read story to lay a leg a which is

the voices that Augustine heard that compelled him to pick up the Bible and start reading it and

He states that it was likely children Playing and reciting this but he took

it as a providential sign from God to pick up the Bible and read in Romans.

And.

So in Augustine's life at that time he becomes a Christian.

How developed was his understanding.

When did he start to believe in such things as a Biblical

concept of election and Know that he was a great hero to John

Calvin many centuries later.

Perhaps over a thousand years later.

A great hero to John Calvin because of this understanding.

And.

Was it was it a commonly held view in his day?

Continuous.

Now.

How close would Augustine's understanding of election be

to John Calvin a thousand years later who adopted Augustine as a hero and

believed he was accurately Repeating what Augustine had believed.

I mean that is now amongst Calvinist known as unconditional election.

Would that have been an identical or nearly identical?

Understanding.

Yes, it is.

The only the only area where Augustine and believe

it or

not.

I believe it or not.

I have met a.

Roman Catholic.

Who was a traditionalist Roman Catholic, you know, the the Latin mass and all that and he

considered himself a truly Augustinian Roman Catholic and he believed in unconditional

election.

He'd and he also just as you said However disagreed with Calvin and the Reformers on justification.

He was a sacramentalist, but he believed he believed that the elect were brought to salvation through the sacraments.

But he did believe in unconditional election or does not would not have been a sacramentalist.

I mean that's a later development,

but Augustine

Augustine's proverbs Eustace

So use of a car and Augustine Augustine's Greek

is never great.

He didn't try to teach him Greek.

He really resisted and Eventually once he's become a Christian he realizes the

importance of knowing Greek the

understanding of just because and not declare righteous.

So that is that is an area that will be used by the Roman Church.

God makes us righteous

the way they

they same view of the script.

Amen, and.

You mentioned earlier Pelagius from my understanding of Pelagius and his

debate with Augustine.

Is that.

Pelagius believed that We are born With a clean slate where

there is no original sin inherited from Adam and of course there's

Subsequent to that.

There's no total depravity the concept that would be more clearly articulated by the Reformers

thousand years later.

But.

That grace even.

For salvation to occur is not necessary.

That it is a helpful aid.

That nudges men, but it's not a requirement now.

Am I accurate in my description of Pelagianism?

Great.

So that was one of the great crucial moments of Christendom where Augustine and Pelagius are debating

over this and It's isn't it ironic.

How?

You will have the majority of Rome still declaring

Augustine or Augustine as a hero and a saint and Decrying.

And.

Opposing Pelagius as a heretic and yet it seems That they are more.

They more resemble Pelagius today and have for centuries even though they would give lip service to

grace and say it's necessary that this they see it.

Am I going so too far by saying they seem to resemble Pelagius's understanding more than Augustine's?

Um, yeah,

when

they confronted late medieval Roman Catholic that somehow

while man is is a sinner he he still and so

in the Roman Catholic

think mind Aquinas

the mind to some degree was left on

they

would argue their vehicles that grace uses Recommends was

to the Reformers.

It seemed to be a man -made religion, right?

Yeah, so The

Pelagianism that the the Reformers are fighting, right?

I didn't mean that they were dogmatically Pelagian I meant that that seemed to resemble that even though they

would be more accurately described semi Pelagian It just seems that way as far as the

emphasis on What men do?

In regard to their entrance into heaven, but is the the irony of of logging Augustine and yet not following

him, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

Let's see before we go to the break we have John and

bang remain who has a question and he asks How far did

Augustine fall short when it came to an accurate understanding of the gospel?

Even though we should revere him in many ways as a hero.

I have heard that he was a forerunner of Things such as the sacrifice of

the mass and the belief in purgatory.

Although it was not full -blown at the time that he was some kind of a spoke in the

wheel to usher in these doctrines.

Yeah, I definitely not.

The mass offer is.

Really?

Though

he

obviously

believed

in

baptismal

regeneration.

Oh.

Okay.

What

in fact that

is

a more accurate description of.

Most or many at least in the Campbellite movement the restoration movement

people wrongly accuse them of believing in baptismal regeneration when they

actually believe in baptism for the remission of sins, which is a Some that's a subtle difference, but I think it's a it

is a difference.

Yeah, and we have to go to our midway break right now.

If anybody wants to join us on the air send in a question to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and Remember, this is our elongated break.

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Haken.

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or more and Before we return to our discussion on Augustin his life and

legacy with my guest. Dr. Michael AG Hagen.

I just have a couple of Upcoming announcements for events that are taking place

that we hope you can attend.

The first is on September 7th, which is a Saturday at 6 30 p .m At the Word of Truth

Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

That is a debate on the theme is the office of Pope biblical.

The debaters include pastor Bruce Bennett of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and

Roman Catholic apologist Mac Matthew Luke Broderick.

Matthew Luke Broderick is the Roman Catholic Apologist defending the concept that the office of Pope

is biblical.

Once again, that is Saturday September 7th 6 30 p .m At the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York if you'd

like to attend that debate Call them for more information at six three one eight zero six zero

six fourteen six three one eight zero six zero six fourteen or you can go to their

their website WOT church .com WOT which stands for word of truth

church .com WOT church .com.

Then coming up in December.

I'm going to be heading off to my old stomping grounds in New York City to the foundations conference.

A.

Conference hosted by sermon audio .com.

And what better time of year to go to Manhattan?

Then in the heart of the Christmas season that's the best place I can think of to be during the Christmas season is New

York City and the days are Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th, which is

surely during the Christmas season and They always have such a phenomenal lineup at the

foundations conference and this December is no exception.

Those speakers include dr. Stephen J Lawson founder of one passion ministries Who's

been a guest in this program and one of the most powerful preachers on the planet Earth as far as I'm concerned Paul Washer

another one of the most powerful preachers on the planet Earth.

Reverend Jeff Thomas who is also in that category.

Reverend Armin Tomassian who I think is also in that category, although he is Largely unknown

to those outside of the Free Presbyterian Church of North America.

I think that Reverend Armin Tomassian is going to be enough it's going to be a household name amongst reformed people over the next decade because he

is Absolutely extraordinary for a man of his youth.

He has abilities and gifts and power in his preaching far beyond his youth.

Richard Caldwell jr.

And Andrew Quigley.

I have not heard them preach yet, but a sermon audio selected them.

I'm sure they must be magnificent.

Go to the foundations conference comm to register if you are a man in ministry leadership.

They can only seat less than 200 people at this venue.

So they have restricted the attendance to men in ministry leadership so that's the

foundations conference comm the foundations conference comm and Then in January and packing up

my bags again and heading down south this time to Atlanta, Georgia or specifically College

Park, Georgia to the Georgia International Convention Center for the 2020 g3

conference and the g3 stands for Gospel grace and glory

this January.

The theme is worship matters and the speakers include Kosti Hinn

who is going to be my guest again on iron sharpens iron radio on Monday the 26th

of this month August so mark your calendars for that.

Kosti Hinn is the nephew of notorious heretic and false teacher Benny Hinn and

Kosti has renounced and repented of the word -of -faith heresy.

He was raised in and he has become a Reformed Baptist pastor and cessationist

currently pastoring in a new New post that he is

pastoring in in Arizona.

You're going to hear ads where James White identifies California as his

place of residence in the place of where he pastors, but he has just recently been Called by his church

to pick up the post as pastor in a another work in Arizona.

So I would strongly urge you to hear Kosti Hinn if you are able to hear him speak anywhere in the country or the

world.

Where he may be speaking.

Darrell Bernard Harrison who is on a new member of the team of John McArthur's grace to you ministries.

David Miller who is a phenomenal old -school preacher of the gospel.

I love hearing him preach Derek Thomas who is certainly not an unfamiliar name

to most Reformed Christians.

My friend, dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries who I've been blessed to call a very close friend since

1995.

Jeremy Volo former professional soccer player with the San Antonio Scorpions now a Reformed

Baptist pastor.

Dr. Joel Beakey Pastor I'm sorry a president of Puritan Reformed

Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Who I've also had as a friend since the 1990s once again.

We have Stephen Jay Lawson and Paul Washer on the roster at this conference.

We have Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you ministries the ministry of John McArthur.

Stephen J Nichols the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by R .C Sproul and Ligonier

ministries.

My friend Todd Friel of wretched TV and wretched radio.

Dr. Tom Askell who is the executive director of founders ministries the

Calvinistic ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Vody Baucom who is one of the most profound and powerful preachers alive today and more.

And the latest name on the lineup is Dr. John McArthur

himself.

John McArthur makes this whole conference worth your efforts to be there as far as I'm concerned.

I've never been in the same building when dr. McArthur has preached so I am very excited about this.

This will be my first time being in the same building with him, and I hope I get the chance to meet him face -to -face.

And perhaps even get an interview out of him at my iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

Which will be there at the g3 conference once again it is as it has been every year for the past several years.

If you want to join me at this conference, which is Thursday January 16th through Saturday

January 18th 2020 in College Park, Georgia go to.

I go to sorry about that go to g3 conference calm.

G3 conference calm.

All the information will be there.

I strongly urge you if you have a business or a parachurch ministry or something else that you want to promote To the body of

Christ I would strongly urge you in addition to registers registering to attend.

That you register for your own exhibitors booth just like I will be Manning because they are expecting as they have

every year over 5 ,000 people in attendance and With John

McArthur added to the lineup.

I think that they're gonna have over $6 ,000.

That's just my Educated guess.

I really believe they're gonna have over 6 ,000 people there now that dr. McArthur has been included.

Go to g3 conference calm.

G3 conference calm last but not least if you love iron trip and Zion radio.

You don't want us to disappear from the airwaves.

You.

Are thrilled to hear guests and topics that sometimes you don't hear anywhere else.

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You donate instantly with a debit or credit card and you can also send in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail to the Address

that appears on your screen when you click support at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

Also.

Remember if you are not a member of a Bible believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one You're living in

rebellion against God, please rectify that situation I may be able to help you because I have lists of biblically faithful

churches all over the world.

I have already helped quite a number of listeners in the iron sharpens iron radio audience find churches near them where they have

joined and also where they are vacationing and Also, I have found churches for the

friends family and loved ones of listeners In different parts of the world.

So please send me an email to chrisarns in a gmail .com and put I need a church home or something like that in

The subject line.

Also If you want to advertise with us, we surely could use your advertising dollars as long as whatever it is.

You are promoting is Compatible with what we believe then we would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we

really do need the advertising dollars.

Send me an email to chrisarns in a gmail .com.

Chrisarns in a gmail .com.

But advertising in the subject line, you don't have to believe exactly as I do.

But you need to be promoting something that is at least compatible with what we believe that's chrisarns in at gmail .com and put

advertising in the subject line and That is also the email address where you can send

in a question to dr. Michael AG Haken on Augustin his life and legacy.

That's chrisarns in at gmail .com.

Chrisarns in a gmail .com as always.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you

live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter.

I Normally don't give the full names of listeners when I get questions from them,

but I just got a question from a friend Who is also a pastor

and when somebody is pastoring a church that I think is Very biblically sound and well worth your while.

Visiting and even joining if you don't have a church of your own.

I.

Typically will let them have a moment of free advertising here.

And this friend of mine longtime friend of mine is Gary George pastor of

Sovereign Grace Chapel in Southbridge, Massachusetts.

He is Personally from Leicester.

I think I'm pronouncing that right, but I might not be Leicester, Massachusetts.

And his question.

Dr. Aiken is How soon after Augustine's conversion was he

baptized and did he understand it to be?

Ex -opera operato.

Did he.

Did or does Eastern Orthodoxy claim him as an esteemed early church

father?

Who they would endorse.

If so, why.

If not, why not?

Yeah, I kind of hinted at that in the beginning that the Eastern Orthodox kind of Barely tolerates him,

right?

They would not

have regarded him

and their Pantheon of Saints and a good reason for that is Augustine.

In his book on the Trinity He argues that the Holy Spirit in his relationship.

I did as what we know as

proceeds from the Father and the Son.

It's a it's Language that is designed to secure the differentiation

of persons within the Godhead.

And In the Standard

the Orthodox churches, which is the Nicene Niceno -Constantinople Creed we know it as the Nicene Creed

simply it simply says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father Not the Father used

in to the Creed.

In the key theological reason the

author Augustine is seen

as their right.

Augustine definitely does lead in that direction.

I think Augustine this would be a maybe a subject for another in

internally

Nicene Cree and I think

Augustine is right to recognize that the Holy Spirit needs to be affirmed as the Spirit of Christ and he Does

so by saying the Spirit.

Now the 20th century a number of Orthodox theologians like George

Flauroski Yeloshla Pelican began to read Augustine

deeply advocate

for him didn't.

Augustine also disagree.

With what For centuries Eastern Orthodoxy would later believe.

Didn't he disagree with them on original sin.

Doesn't Eastern Orthodoxy reject that.

Yeah, I mean Orthodoxy is shaped in many ways.

It's an Orthodoxy in its view of second century.

With narcissism here an

ass and over against this to

see the emphasis on the freedom of the will in in Greek -speaking

Christianity that's Latin speaking Christian.

Between Augustine and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Because we would believe he's on the right side of orthodoxy there.

Wait now to go back to the other question regarding his baptism.

Augustine is in the air to.

And of the the whole and

for Augustine

he's very

clear

problem

is

and

August anticipate that because of his

emphasis on baptism for children for infants and he participates in

the.

It's very interesting up until Augustine's time believers baptism

none of

them baptized and it's only with

Augustine You start to find a theological justification for infant baptism given firm grounding.

100 rights against it in about 190.

Isn't it that the first recorded reference to infant baptism was in opposition to it by Petroleum?

Yep, I think so.

But till.

Augustine provides the theological foundation for it.

And even then if there had

not been the whether or not it would have become

well.

Thank you very much. Pastor Gary George and let me give our audience your website for

Sovereign Grace Chapel of South Bridge, Massachusetts.

It is Sovereign Grace ma org Sovereign Grace ma the

abbreviation for Massachusetts org Sovereign Grace ma org.

Thank you very much for contributing an excellent question pastor Gary and please keep sending in

questions For our guests here on iron trip and Zion radio and we look forward to you returning as a guest as well brother.

God bless.

Let's see we have CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island, New York and

He asks, can you speak a bit more on how both Roman Catholics

and fundamentalists? wrongly view Augustine how the Roman Catholics have

romanized him and how the fundamentalist Baptists and others have

Unconsciously or consciously agreed with Rome for the first time.

In that they Romanize Augustine as well not because they adopt him as a hero or a church father But

because they despise him even though they probably do not know what he taught.

Yeah, I mean I've had

I've had

an encounter on both and then I've also met

over the years had a student at one point who would have been a fundamentalist and We were working through Augustine.

I remember pay ridicules.

Well, not ridiculed it.

He basically rejected any.

Are you Augustine and

the the fundamentalist view basically buys the argument that the Roman Catholics make?

Augustine would have been uncomfortable in a very uncomfortable in a Roman Catholic setting in many ways

his view of authority.

He doesn't buy the papacy the way that Rome develops it.

He certainly is not committed to the mass.

The the whole Roman sacrament to see it's a

development.

It's it's not there in the beginning.

Obviously, it's not part and parcel of the the early churches

were the seed.

But having said that Augustine would not fit into a medieval Roman Catholics.

Thank you.

See and it's ironic that the fundamentalist that

he Augustine fits.

And he doesn't.

I think there are two critical things for the for Roman Catholicism.

One is the papacy.

One is the mass and the whole sacramental system and Augustine is dubious

on both.

And that that is that that is that you just listed the main pillars of Roman Catholicism.

Yeah, I mean obviously definitely reject the idea of the papacy because during the Pelagian controversy

Zalzimus and

And Augustine wrote when he heard this and he said look

if you do this We will cut off as Orthodox totally and the North

African and you don't write to the Pope that way.

Thank You CJ for the excellent question, um.

This this is interesting how our fundamentalist friends who claim to

despise the Church of Rome and especially its

heretical teachings how very often they unconsciously adopt understandings of certain things

or at least perpetuate Beliefs of Rome that are more in contrast with the

Reformation for instance, even Even though they would never say this

verbally or in writing they sided with Erasmus on the issue of

the will.

When it came to Luther's debate with Erasmus on the bondage of the will they're actually

siding unconsciously with Rome in that argument.

I mean and I say that I don't mean to broad brush because there are Calvinists who are fundamentalist.

But I mean those fundamentalists who are anti Calvinists are actually siding unconsciously with Rome on that issue, aren't they?

Yeah

important

to know

church

history.

We've been

there

before

and it.

I'm gonna have you respond to something when we return from our final break.

Another question from Mary in Cork, Ireland.

She says Augustine spent a lot of time talking about the sin of theft.

Because it highlights the inherent sin nature in man.

Augustine stole for the sheer delight and pleasure of stealing before he was saved.

Regardless of whether it was tempting or not.

It exposed his depraved nature.

He loved theft for theft's sake and not for what he stole.

His theft was not because of necessity or want but out of a strong impulse for

Iniquity and forbidden sin.

He says the pears were so beautiful to behold because God the Creator made them.

But that was not the reason he lusted for them as he had an abundance of better pears.

I only picked them that I might steal.

For no sooner had I picked them that I threw them away and tasted nothing in them.

But my own sin which I relished and enjoyed in any part of one of those pears

past my lips.

It was the sin that gave it flavor.

Could your guest comment more on this?

Aspect of Augustine's writings.

And if you could pick up on that when we return.

If anybody else wants to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I don't go away.

We're gonna be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Got to tell you for my money chris arnson's radio program is just the best.

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Of grace to you inviting Everybody to come to the g3 conference, which has almost instantly

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the dividing line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues Some of my

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Welcome back.

And as you probably recall dr. Haken before the break Mary from Cork

Ireland had another question.

She wanted to know basically your comments about her description of Augustine.

Taking a lot of time talking about the sin of theft because it highlights the inherent Sin nature and man

if you could comment on that at all.

Augustine in book in that

section is he's wanting to find something that Demons

the

the

other

so he

chooses

this

marriage

and is

a gun

regenerate,

you

know.

That.

Statement that answer to Mary's question Brought up to my

memory.

I know this had nothing really to do with the experience of Augustine but I think it goes hand in hand in

in a significant way when I have heard the testimonies of Those

most depraved serial killers and so on such as Ted Bundy

When they are on death row and in fact, this was from an interview that he had with dr.

Dobson I can remember When it what started out as just basic

Pornography which is in and of itself an abomination to God He

lost interest in it and it had to become more and more Bizarre and

violent and twisted in order for him to become aroused

by it.

And it's as if Sin in and of itself

just like the the thieving of the of the pairs.

The.

The pairs of that good Guston talked about had nothing to do with really the pairs it had to do with the the

Excitement over stealing them and it seems that that would go hand in hand even with these very grotesque

testimonies of people who are like Serial killers like I just mentioned who they have to be more and more depraved

in order for them to enjoy their sin.

But before we run out of time, I would like you to really nail home with our listeners.

Why.

Especially those who are Protestants should not ignore or forget the legacy of Augustine.

Why is

he such an

important

figure for us

to grasp on to

and

learn

from and

Augustine the sizes

the image?

This is

not

a

home.

There is

eternal wherever

the church in book

the the

great

revivals of the

18th century and to

keep her in

that regard the.

You know things in many ways.

You just you keep.

I can't.

Many intellectuals.

530 years.

The Lord

Jesus said the

gates of Hades shall not prevail against her.

Well, if you'd like to hang on the line after we go off the air I would like to book you for another interview on

Augustine City of God if you don't mind.

Oh, I'd love that.

Oh, yeah.

Well, thank you so much.

Dr. Haken.

I want to make sure our listeners remember that the website for the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is

sbts .edu Sbts .edu.

Do you have any other contact information that you care to share?

That's great.

Yep, that would be that'd be perfect great and go to that website and also look up information.

Keep checking on that website for a conference coming up in September on angels that I am going to try

to attend myself.

Thank you for all of you for contributing your your questions to dr Haken and thank you all of you

who listened whether you ask questions or not I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a

far greater Savior than you are a sinner.