September 9, 2015 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Beware of False Prophets: The Case Against Charles G. Finney”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in

downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a

radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this ninth

day of September 2015, and I've been waiting to do this interview for

quite a long time with my old friend Jerry Johnson.

During those years when my program was on hiatus, I was in many

conversations with Jerry to conduct an interview, and I'm just so thankful that the Lord has

brought me back to the airwaves and I am able to interview this brother in Christ about a

very important subject.

For seven years, Jerry Johnson was president of Nicene Council, a Christian apologetic ministry.

He earned his MA in Christian Studies and a Master of Theology in Theology,

Master of Philosophy in Theology and Apologetics from Whitfield Theological Seminary.

He is currently working on a doctorate from Knox Theological Seminary in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Jerry was the researcher and senior writer for numerous documentaries, including the best -selling Amazing

Grace, The History and Theology of Calvinism, The Marks of a Cult, A Biblical Analysis, and

The Late Great Planet Cherth.

We're also going to be discussing one of those documentaries today as our main theme, Beware of False

Prophets, The Case Against Charles G. Finney.

Jerry has served as a member of the Board of Regents for Whitfield Theological Seminary and as an adjunct

professor at Knox Theological Seminary since 2005.

Jerry has been a chaplain for Baseball Chapel, currently serving a minor league team

in southwest Virginia.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever.

As a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, Jerry Johnson.

Thank you, Chris.

It's good to be with you.

And this is a very important topic, as I mentioned before.

We are discussing the documentary that Jerry wrote and produced,

Beware of False Prophets, The Case Against Charles G. Finney.

If you yourself count Finney among your heroes,

or if you know others who do count Finney among their heroes, please call them up

and tell them to go to their laptops or computers and go to

ironsharpensironradio .com to listen to this live broadcast, because you and they

need to know about this individual from history who you call your hero,

an individual that Jerry Johnson, my guest today, believes is a very dangerous heretic,

and he has done a convincing job in stating that case in the documentary I mentioned earlier.

Well, first of all, let's go into his background before we even get into

certain aspects of his theology.

I know that Charles G. Finney was born in the latter part of the 18th century

and grew up in the 19th century.

Tell us something about his upbringing.

I know that he was not from a Christian home.

That is correct, yeah.

He, I mean, that's something that I think a lot of us can identify with.

I

wasn't

raised,

and

when

I

read

through

it, I

thought,

now,

upper

states, I

can't

help

but

wonder.

So, you mean these supernatural things in the description you're saying may have been

fabricated to make his testimony sound more remarkable?

And

that's,

that was

concerned

with

that,

stained by

the

Holy Spirit.

Now, weren't there men like Asahel Middleton that were contemporaries of Finney who you would believe.

Were involved in genuine revival?

Well, I mean, there were guys like us,

another in our

man's name,

and I don't

even go

so far.

I had

a guy

up in Michigan, as

an avant -garde

district.

Yeah,

explain

something

about

the

concept

of

the

burnout,.

Burnt -out districts and so on that you just described.

Yeah, the burnt -out

district was

Finney and

going to an

area.

Then they would have son,

as this happened over and

over

and over

again.

And

there

was

a deception very early on at the.

Outset of his ministry when he was ordained as a Presbyterian minister

he lied about having read the Westminster Confession of Faith, didn't he?

I've

got

the

quote

right,

even for

the

substance

of it.

That's

duplicity at

its finest.

However, I

never read

it.

For the

part of

the

inferiorly

consensualist.

I said, that's

fine.

Obviously, in 1824, when Finney was ordained as a Presbyterian

minister, the body that ordained him must have been quite lax

in their examining him, because they should have really quickly understood that

he did not only know what the Confession said, but that he didn't teach or believe what the

Confession teaches.

Well,

you've

got to

remember

that at

this

time,

I'm having a senior as were...

19th century, like B .B. Warfield and so on?

Now we know Princeton is filled with log cabin Republicans.

The log cabin, and that's why they called it, you know, the log cabin school.

And

so,

these

guys

were

going

to

tolerate

in the

documentarists.

Oh, yeah.

We document it.

That's right.

And a lot of it comes directly from Finney's own lectures

on systematic theology.

Yeah,

systematic

theology

is

memoirs,

and

the

late

great plan.

Finney started a college called Oberlin College, and...

Yes,

yes.

But they always...

Same words, different dictionary.

Now here's Finney saying...

Yes.

Finney's

getting

ready

to redefine

how many

you're going to

talk with.

And we'll do a sermon here and there, and that's it.

Yes, and one of the things that you mentioned before about Oberlin College, it is

absolutely astonishing that he became president of Oberlin College, and

he had no former training at all.

None at all.

He can't remember, he claims he was accepted...

Yeah, you were saying in your documentary that a lot of local

pastors were very upset with Finney when he would have revival meetings in their area,

but it was because of the numeric growth of those who attended his

revivals.

That's what gave him a seal of approval in the minds of many.

And a lot of these people

would...

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question about Charles G. Finney, whether you agree with what's being said, or

whether you disagree, or you're just not certain, maybe you've never heard of Finney before, which would be unlikely if you're an

evangelical Christian for any number of years.

But we would love to have your input at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H

-R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and please give

your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you

live outside of the U .S.

That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

We were discussing how pastors were very upset very

often when Finney would come to town and set up a revival meeting, but even though the local

pastors were upset due to the things that were going on that were unconventional, that were

novel, that were not being... haven't had any record of being performed in church history,

even though these things were all new, because of the rapid growth of his audiences,

people began to put a seal of approval on him.

And a lot of people listening, Jerry, as you know, may be totally unaware

that the altar calls or public invitations where people are invited to

walk down an aisle and recite a prayer and will be deemed very often as being born again

as a result of this, a lot of these people think that's old -time religion, that's a part of the good old -fashioned

fundamentalist faith.

But this didn't even exist in church history until Finney did it.

No, it didn't, and to make a comment, the critics of Finney of the

day criticized his methodology.

Now, you know, and people that

are... and if you know anything about Reformed Presbyterians, we don't

have altar calls.

We encourage people to go to Christ, not to mention, the front of the church is

not an altar.

What do you... what happens on an altar?

A sacrifice.

A sacrifice.

But Christ was the sacrifice once for all, and he hung on the cross.

So there is nothing to offer anymore on any altar.

So people ask me, well, what do you call it?

Well, we call it the front of the church.

By the way, Reformed Baptists typically do not have altar calls either.

Correct, correct.

And so, you know, in the ancient sea...

Decisional regeneration plays a large role in this whole concept.

If you could define that for our listeners.

Now, ask the question again.

Decisional regeneration, I said, plays a large role in this whole practice of

the altar call or the public invitation to come forward and receive Christ.

That kind of thing.

If you could define decisional regeneration for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with.

That.

All right.

Well, before I do that, I want to do this, okay?

Because what I want to do...

Sure.

...to the listener, okay?

Okay.

Now, I am a

Catholic.

I also believe...

Yes.

...and I'm exposed to that

response

because

I understood what he meant.

He says a lawyer called to study to

show thyself approved and to learn the great doctrine into our

lives.

I see, and I could open up a whole can of worms here that I'm not going to go down this rabbit trail.

We got two hours, remember?

Let me just say that there are many Arminians.

Yes.

Right?

The debate is not between

Calvinism.

Everything

is

about

original

sin.

So you are saying that this is really an argument between Christianity and

Pelagianism?

The heresy of Pelagianism.

So even our Arminian brothers who learn these things about Finney, if they are

biblically orthodox, even while remaining Arminian, they should be just as appalled as

we are by what Finney taught.

With John Wesley's statement right here,

just to bring it

out,

we're

passive

in

regeneration.

So

we

understood

what, in

short,

he

was

trying

to

find.

Amen.

So the evangelical church has always believed...

Yes.

...told the prophecy...

And I mean, the biblical evidence that we inherited

sin from Adam after his fall, or at his fall, is

clear enough evidence that evangelicals predominantly have held to that, even if they are frightened of terms

that sound too Catholic to them, like original sin.

It's been a universally held belief by evangelical Christianity and

Protestantism that we are born in sin.

I'm quoting from the same book, the

memoirs.

Finney goes on to write, the Bible, he was

referencing Gale again, teaches that God has imputed Adam's sin to all his

progeny, that we inherit the guilt of that sin by nature,

and are exposed to eternal damnation for the guilt of Adam's sin.

That contradiction of my irresistible conviction,

Finney went on to affirm that he

disagreed with the doctrine.

Now, he also used...

I don't want to sidetrack you, because you're on a very important part here, but he, according to your

documentary, according to the quotes even by Finney, he really did not

believe in what we call the Reformation principle of sola scriptura.

He didn't believe that the Bible was his sole, inerrant authority, did he?

Well, you know what, it's...

Finney had legal training, he never had theological training, and he even admits, he

says,

it's his

fallen nature,

and I think

that's what

Finney did.

Yeah, well, Finney probably would not have spelled it out that he didn't believe in the sufficiency of scripture or inerrancy in

quite those vivid terms, but the way in practice he functioned was a denial of sola

scriptura, wasn't it?

Right, and I would agree.

The

Bible tells

us

this

is...

I had a man, oh, this goes back

about to me, he

worked

for a cat

he had already made,

he was wide open to...

No, no, one of the things...

And I

argue

with this,

because he

asked me,

would

I...

Yes, yes.

Would I be sinning?

But

he

said

to me,

figure

that

out,

into

Solomon

Gomorrah.

So, you know, and I wasn't the guy standing there saying, see, I told you so, I never.

Even...

Finney and his approach

is

the

wrong question to

ask.

In fact, it's a very liberal hermeneutic.

I know that Finney was morally conservative, but that is the type

of approach that the liberal Bible scholar or liberal minister who has any use of the

Bible, he will use that approach in hermeneutics when he's attempting to

exegete the Bible.

Yeah, and so that's why I'm looking at a quote here from Finney's lectures on systematic theology...

Now, one of the things that our listeners may find remarkable, especially those who are Reformed and

are very familiar with the terms monergism and synergism, they

may be shocked to hear that Finney was a monergist, but not in a good way.

No,

and

I've

often made

that distinction, and I

recognize

that as the case.

Just like regeneration, as well.

Say it again?

Just like regeneration, as well.

Just like regeneration.

And

see, the

idea is

that sinually,

we

are

sin, and truly,

we are sin,

and

this is

what mis...

And if you could differentiate between monergism and synergism, and then differentiate

between theomonergism and anthromonergism.

Yeah, monergism basically

stated is

that it's a line

justification, it's

ergof,

but I'm not real sure.

The funny thing is, I

read that quote

by John Wesley, and I've read so much of Wesley over

the years, he

would have first,

and we needed...

Right.

The

Arminian

believes

life

without

God.

Now, here's the irony, is that you have so many fundamentalists who

rightly condemn the Roman Catholic Church for their heretical view of

justification and salvation by adding the works of men and denying

sola gratia and sola fide, that here you have

Finney that they uphold as a hero, many of them, not all of them, but many of these fundamentalists, these same

fundamentalists uphold Finney as a hero, and yet he was so man -centered in his view of

salvation that he believed in something that even Rome condemned.

Oh, and in many ways they actually are.

Right, right.

Finney really

ever

brought up,

but

Finney

gravitates,

you

have

all

the

way up

to...

Of course, the classic debate was with Augustine, who stood on the

right, biblical side of the question.

Right, and remember his next...

Yes.

And Augustine...

Wow.

These fundamentalists...

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Back to our discussion.

There is a remarkable quote right from the pen of Charles G. Finney on

what we were just discussing on his monergistic view that man

alone is involved in his regeneration, and.

I've got it right here.

If you want to shock our listeners with this one, go ahead and read it.

Yeah, and we documented all this.

It's by Bethany Thompson.

That is utterly astonishing.

Yeah.

And see,

when I

sat

there

with her, and I

have the other

quote

about

what

Finney

believed.

The role of the Spirit was in regeneration.

If you want to read that.

If you don't, I have it right in front of me.

No, you go ahead and read it.

The Spirit takes the things of Christ and shows them to the soul.

That's it.

Okay.

Now, here's this.

This loves me the coil.

Yes.

As an evangelical Christian, I

don't know,

you

may not

understand.

Let me repeat.

While you're looking, I'm going to repeat our email address.

If anybody has any questions, it's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, city and state, and country if you live outside the U .S.

I have a quote from pages 320 to 322 on lectures on

systematic theology.

I don't know if...

Go ahead and read it.

Christ's righteousness could do no more than justify himself.

It can never be imputed to us.

It was naturally impossible, then, for him to obey on our behalf.

I mean, that's blasphemy.

Oh, of course.

I mean, there is no other way around that.

That is blasphemy.

I'm going to grab his memoirs.

Well, if you want, I could quote another one from his lectures on systematic theology, if you

want.

I've got one right here.

Okay.

Page 51.

I think.

I did that song.

We rendered the salvation of other self -laid God.

Substitutionary atonement.

You've got the issue.

Return this.

Still try to

maintain what Paul said.

That's right.

Without for

sinners

to

be...

How in the world can...

Right.

So does he...

How can they do that?

It's funny because lectures is published by Pat Harbis.

They never read Finney.

Did Finney...

I guess he must have believed that he met that criteria then.

Yeah.

I mean, I would assume so.

I mean,

because

remember, Finney held

where you and I would

hold him.

Right.

The governmental theory of the atonement.

And

I wish I

had

to

quote

Robert

Raymond on

that

voice.

That's right.

That's right.

And

that

is the deity

of

Christ.

One of

his had called

one of

their

students.

You know, what they came up with is...

I just have a couple of more horrific quotes right out of Finney's

lectures on systematic theology that I'd like you to respond to.

One is found on page 747.

Finney writes, it is not found in Christ's literally suffering

the exact penalty of the law for them.

And in the sense, literally purchasing their justification and eternal salvation.

And then in page 750, he says, neither is the atonement nor

anything in the mediatorial work of Christ, the foundation of our justification in the

sense of the source moving or procuring cause.

Just utterly astonishing.

Yeah.

And

that is

the

denial

of

what

is hung

on

the cross.

Convert or regenerate ourselves.

And that's the good news.

That is the good news.

Even

Armenians for

them.

My common sin, that I'm sure you do, is

trying to

get around

them.

They are Finney.

He must be.

And he must be.

For all those

backed up with single

pinnacle.

That at that moment, I'm no longer a Christian.

Yeah, this is pretty scary stuff.

And it's just amazing that people just, it must be through total ignorance.

They know that the people in their club like this guy, Finney.

So I'm just going to say that I like him too.

And I know that he was very opposed to immorality and he

stressed repentance.

So I'm just going to, I'm going to hail him as my hero too.

But they don't even really investigate the person that they are.

They don't.

They don't, brother.

And that's what's so scary.

But you know, if you ever saw, yes, I'm not going

to say this.

If I can say this as a, are

you

talking

about

Christian missionary alliance?

No, we were C and E, Christmas and Easter.

Oh, C and E.

I thought you said CMA.

Okay.

No, C and E.

We only went

to, we were, you

know, I praise the

Lord.

My dad passed away last year and he

had a,

where the gospel was preached.

And so, you know, I'm very grateful, but we weren't a Christian family.

My goal in

life was

only as

you would

ever train

my

children in

the man.

And humble.

And humble.

It

was

Miles

Covey.

And you

know,

you're

very.

Yeah.

And when you were talking before about Finney's understanding of the atonement being just an example,

that's another area where he is using the same type of eisegesis or

hermeneutic, bad hermeneutic that the liberals use.

They would believe that the atonement was, or should I say the crucifixion, the crucifixion was

just an example.

They would have a different reason than Finney.

They would say not because of the God's hatred of sin, but because of the, it's an example of

the humility and selflessness and sacrifice of Christ on

behalf of others.

They would use language like that, but it's still the same idea of it's just an example.

It really didn't finish or complete the work of redemption or the work of

atonement.

It was really just a play, if you will, a theatrical performance.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's a good way of referencing it.

By the way, I found Dr. Robert Raymond's quote, Systematic Theology, and Dr.

Raymond said,

because

look

at

what

he taught,

denies

creation

by faithful, denies

the

evangelical

result,

presumptive,

there's

no true

conversion there.

Yeah, I'm going to just quickly give another announcement for the sponsors of this

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I also have been asked by our friends at the Preakness Valley United Reform Church in New

Jersey, we have been asked to announce their conference.

It's a very controversial conference because it's really done in the

format of a debate.

I'm not sure if it's going to be an actual formal debate, but there will be two sides of the

Two Kingdoms controversy presented at this conference at the Preakness

Valley United Reform Church.

Their website is preaknessvalley .org, that's P as in Peter, R -E -A -K

-N -E -S -S, that's N as in Nancy, E -S -S, valley .org, preaknessvalley

.org.

But let me ask you a question.

Because of the fact that Finney is really outside of

the realm of not only evangelical or historic Protestant theology, he even

supersedes Rome in its heresies on justification.

Are there any figures of history that were identifying themselves

as Protestant or evangelical that resembled him at all?

I'm talking about, obviously, people who are in writing somewhere, people who are

noteworthy for a bad reason, obviously.

Do you know of anybody that compares to Finney in this way, or is he just an anomaly?

No, I think he was actually kind of a grandfather.

Yeah, it's not only Billy Graham, you had the late Jerry Falwell praising Finney,

and the most uncomfortable for us in the Reform camp, J .I. Packer.

Although it's no big shock to see, unfortunately, J .I. Packer's name attached to really

horrible books and things like that, this is still beyond the comprehension.

Yeah, and I'm looking at his endorsement.

That doesn't mean I'm endorsing the theology, that means from a position of scholarship, I'm

glad this was done.

J .I. Pining ways, he was

a great man.

Like Time Magazine calls them the man of the year, even though Hitler was on the cover.

I mean, perhaps he just meant a figure from

history that needs to be dealt with, or reckoned with, or whatever.

Yeah, years ago, I'm not

supporting

a Nazi.

In fact, Rommel wasn't even a Nazi, to my knowledge.

I don't think he was actually ideologically a Nazi.

No, I don't think he were too,

and I was not.

The thing is, I can admire the man.

I tell him, and I'm not going to say his name, I'm hungry!

You're not going to get her into heaven by...

And by the way, I think that you would agree that Finney's methodology in his

humanistic approach to salvation is being imitated

today by the evangelical church at large, but wouldn't you say that they do not share...

The one thing that he seemed to emphasize that was correct was the need of repentance.

That seems to be absent from the majority of evangelical pulpits, at least those in the limelight, those who are

the big names in televangelism and the best -selling books and so forth.

Repentance seems to be almost non -existent in the message of the gospel.

Now, and I

would have

gone in order

to be

programs

or

emotions,

so will

Reagan

give

a speech in 1980?

Let me ask

you a question

about, we

were

talking about at

the outset of the

program, the burnout.

District or the burned -out districts where the false revivals came and went, and

then you hardly saw any fruit of conversion in those areas

for years, perhaps even until our modern day.

Do you think a lot of it has to do with the false gospel of Finney

is, since it is impossible to meet the requirements of it, that people just give up?

And they're like, I can't do this.

Well, it seems like the way that modern evangelicalism

differs from the days of Finney, even though the methodology is the same and the human

-centeredness is the same, it seems like today they want to give all the good news without the

bad news, and it seems like Finney had the majority of bad news to tell and not

really much good news or hope or any comfort or peace.

I don't know how anybody could find any hope, comfort, and peace in a message that says you must fulfill the

law perfectly without failure and without interruption.

I don't know how anybody...

Well,

and hey,

this

is why we

have

this

whole

dangerous place.

Do you know, historically, if a lot of Finney's

disciples eventually went into Mormonism or any of the other major cults that came from that

era?

Well, I do know this.

I could say that any predominant person...

And even the occult, right?

And even the occult, too, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, so you really have this blow up.

I do have a question from a listener.

We have CJ in Linenhurst, New York, who asks, in your estimation, I know that

only God knows the heart, but do you expect to see Finney in heaven in spite

of his horrible theology?

You know, that is

a quite spectacular...

You mean

my

listener?

My listener.

We have another listener, Christian in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks,

I know that we who are Christians often honor and revere men

and give them honor publicly, although they had heretical ideas of

theology, men such as Thomas Jefferson and Martin Luther King Jr.,

who have accomplished great things for our nation, but themselves were very dangerously

heretical in their theology.

Is there anything that we can find within Finney to uphold him as a hero or example in

any sense?

Well, you know what?

On

the

foundational

doctrines of...

Amen.

And it goes for...

And you have about...

I'm not going to go outside of that.

And you have about two minutes to leave what you most want etched in the hearts of our listeners today, Jerry.

All you need to know is...

Amen.

Well, I tell you, Jerry, I remember... I have to chuckle about it now, but I remember before the program, you were like,

I don't know, do you think we could stretch out a discussion on Finney in two hours?

And I was confident we could, and we definitely did.

And there was never a dull moment and never a dead air that I can remember.

And I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being a guest for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron, and I look forward to

many future returns, God willing and your schedule permitting.

Hey, Chris, just to let folks know, if they want to get a copy of...

Yes.

Beware of false prophets.

Go to christianreader .com for the digital version and Amazon for the DVD.

And you could also try one of our sponsors, who I know has carried some

of Jerry's documentaries on DVD, and they still may have some in stock.

Go to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

And their website is cvbbs .com, C -V for

Cumberland Valley, bbs .com.

I want to thank you so much, Jerry, for being on our program, and I want everybody to remember

for the rest of their lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.

God bless, and we look forward to your returning to us tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron.