BBC Elders Q&A

Bethlehem Bible Church iconBethlehem Bible Church

0 views

0 comments

00:00
This is Bethlehem Bible Church and these are the elders of the church. Churches have different ways to govern themselves.
00:07
There's congregational rule. There is... So there's congregational polity and that's very popular of course in New England.
00:17
Then there's bishops that run things, so that would be different denominations.
00:23
And then there's elder leadership and we believe the Bible clearly teaches elder leadership and I know you know these men and they read scripture regularly and pray for you.
00:35
And we once a quarter so want to just have a Q &A. You could ask any question you'd like.
00:41
You can either write the question, email the question, or ask the question tonight. So we want to do that.
00:47
I do want to say though if you ever have a question, a private question or anything you want to know about the church or what we believe, you can ask these guys at any time.
00:56
I think the only time they wouldn't give you an answer is maybe there's some church discipline case going on or something like that and they might not be able to give you that information.
01:05
But if you want to ask about church budgets, you'd like to ask about doctrinal things. Anything you want to ask, you can grab them anytime.
01:13
What we try to do by the way, I don't know if you've noticed this, but on Sundays, even though we're really good friends, all of us, and I think that's a testament to the glory of God, we don't talk to each other on Sundays.
01:26
Maybe just here or there because we're trying to talk to you and minister to you and be open for your questions instead of just huddling with our best friends, you know, the elder board.
01:36
And maybe if I could give you a little pastoral advice, you probably have people that every week you want to see and talk to because they're your friends, but don't forget about other people who are here and visiting that you might need to extend the right hand of fellowship to.
01:49
And so we'd like you to model even what we try to do. Of course, say hi to your friends and loved ones, but then see who's visiting.
01:56
All right? So with that, are there questions for the elders? And if you just, since it's a small congregation tonight, if you just ask the question,
02:06
I'll repeat the question on the microphone, and then I'll have one of these guys answer the question.
02:12
We have a backup plan if there aren't questions, but are there questions for the elders? Yes? Okay.
02:22
Good question. I don't think you got approval earlier. Let me repeat the question for the sake of the microphone.
02:32
I'm coming up now on 20 years of being your pastor. And what'd you say,
02:37
Janet? Is it different than I thought it would be? I probably could do a, you know, radio show on this or maybe a whole
02:47
Sunday night with, you know, six lessons I've learned or something like that. But just off the top of my head,
02:53
I'm remembering a conversation I had with John MacArthur in 97. I was a brand new pastor.
02:59
I'd been here for six months. And I just wanted some help from John.
03:05
And I said, you know, can you help me figure out this pastoral ministry?
03:11
Because it's easy in seminary when you're learning, but then when you have to do it. And John said to me, we were in New York, Schroon Lake.
03:19
Schroon Lake. How do you say it? Schroon. Is that right? By the way, it was always funny because Word of Life is there.
03:26
And when I first got here, I talked to young people. Are you a Christian? Yes. When did you get saved? I got saved at the Super Bowl.
03:32
Everybody I met got saved at the Super Bowl. I thought, it seemed like it's kind of a poor congregation, but there's a lot of rich people here sending their children to the
03:40
Super Bowl. And Super Bowl was just this big event at Word of Life that had nothing to do with the NFL. So anyway,
03:48
I asked John. And John looked at me and he said over lunch, he said, you'll figure it out.
03:54
I thought, that is not the answer I'm looking for, you'll figure it out. And this is going to sound like a joke initially, but for you ladies that have born children, if you knew the pain you would be in ahead of time, you might not want to have children, right?
04:13
It's just like, oh, nobody told me it was going to be that painful. And so we've had wonderful ups here at the church and wonderful downs because the
04:21
Lord has made them both, you know, wonderful. What are my expectations? I really thought
04:27
I wanted to go, 2 Timothy chapter 4 says, preach the word. And so I thought there's a lot of things
04:33
I'm not good at, but I'm determined with the training that I've had at the seminary and good godly examples, alive and dead, to just preach the word.
04:42
And really, Janet, I think, and you know this from Grace Church and here as well, the word of God changes people.
04:49
It changes what they think, what they then do. It changes everything about them, imperceptibly sometimes, because you don't see immediate change.
04:59
You know, it's kind of like that growing bean, you know, you mark up your grandkids. How many grandkids do you have now? Fifteen or something like that?
05:06
She needs a pillow for more. Okay, good, good. And so the word of God changes people.
05:11
1 Peter chapter 2 verses 1 and 2 talks about, like newborn babes, long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow in respect to salvation.
05:22
And I just have watched people learn and grow. So that's been probably the most wonderful thing for me, is to watch people get saved and watch them learn and grow.
05:32
And even Eric Johanson, last week, to watch him. I mean, in one sense, I thought, you know,
05:37
I didn't save, in every sense, I didn't save him or sanctify him, but I was used by the Lord in his life.
05:42
And I thought, this is kind of as good as it gets. And then the phone call from the doctor comes.
05:49
And then you go up and down. So 20 years of expectations.
05:55
I really was happy when I became a pastor. And here's a little town of 5 ,000, 6 ,000 people out in the middle of nowhere.
06:04
I was glad it was in America. And the Lord knew I just needed to be behind the scenes just week in and week out.
06:11
I mean, how many Sunday night services did we have here preaching through Genesis and Exodus and those places and those books?
06:17
And there have been trials, but every church has trials.
06:25
I see the Psalms differently now because of the joys that are found in the
06:30
Psalms and then the difficult times found in the Psalms. So scripture has become more alive in my life as I've watched people.
06:39
I've watched your kids grow up. You know, one of the benefits of being here 20 years, some of your children were not born when
06:46
I got here. And then I've watched Harry baptize them. That's been pretty exciting to see.
06:53
That is life changing when you see these young people grow up, you know, little rug rat kids running around the
06:59
Iwana circle and stuff. And then they're getting baptized. And Nathan Goddard. Are you here, Nathan, tonight? There he is.
07:05
Nathan Goddard's in my preaching class. 17 years old. Yes. And when
07:10
I saw you, when did we first meet? Were you even alive when we met? And just watching young men and women just learn and grow.
07:21
And Nathan will be preaching a 30 -minute sermon here next Saturday right from that pulpit. It better be good.
07:28
So I'm rambling, but it's just a testimony of the grace of God. I think of the Ebenezer in the
07:34
Old Testament. And you set up the Ebenezer and you think, God has been faithful thus far. And I'm not trying to say, this is not,
07:43
I don't have an agenda as I say it. But you know it's the powerful word because we realize how weak we are and sinful we are.
07:51
I am weak and sinful. And you just go, what changes people? So I've always thought, you know what, when they bury me at Bethlehem Bible Church, I hope it's in a long time from now,
08:01
I hope they say things. I hope you say things like, you know, he might not have done this that well or the other thing too well.
08:08
We wish he would have been such and such. But every time he stepped in the pulpit, he opened up the Bible. Every wedding, every funeral, he taught the
08:15
Bible. So that's really what I'm after. I think for these men, that's why the charge in 2 Timothy is the courtroom, language, life or death charge.
08:24
I charge you in the presence of God, even the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to come back to judge the living and the dead, preach the word in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction.
08:38
So that's what we really want to do. And we have a lot, a long way to go as an elder board, but every one of these men is committed to teaching you the
08:47
Bible no matter what. If it costs them their life or we get closed down or the persecution comes, we will teach you the
08:55
Bible. So would I do anything differently in the last 20 years?
09:00
There are lots of things that I would do differently, but the Lord even uses those things. I think there was a pastor one day that preached a sermon about God causes all things to work together for good, and I would agree with that pastor.
09:13
So I'm going to stop rambling. I don't even think I answered your question, but that's my answer.
09:19
Okay, all right. Thank you. I thought she said you're fired.
09:25
Oh, yeah. And I will say, because some of you are newer to the church, Steve and Janet Cooley began coming to our
09:34
Bible study in Los Angeles over 20 years ago and to watch them as immature
09:41
Christians, mature and ministers of the gospel now, and I don't mean capital M for Janet, but just ministering the gospel faithfully to ladies and to men and it just really changes people.
09:52
And so we get to watch that. I'd hate it if I jumped around every three years to different churches because I'd never get to see that.
09:59
And hopefully, by the grace of God, you've seen growth in my life, and we'll continue to see that, and I'd like to just keep becoming a better pastor.
10:08
And so hopefully you get to see it. I think somebody told me the other day, they said, Mike, we think you're getting nicer. I thought, you know what?
10:15
I hope I am. I hope I'm getting nicer and kinder. Okay. Next question.
10:24
Pardon, what? Favorite book? Oh, yeah. What's my favorite book?
10:32
A few months ago, you know, I was just saying a few things about, you know, this might be the last book I ever preach, the book of Hebrews, so I'm just going to go slowly.
10:40
And little did I know that might actually be the case, right? You just think, okay. So I've particularly loved
10:47
Hebrew Scott for the reason that it helps me to know the Old Testament better. If Janet asked me how
10:53
I've changed over the last 20 years, I would say I think I see more continuity between the
10:59
Old Testament and the New Testament. I would see Christ in more places, at least types or examples or flickers of who
11:08
Jesus, the Messiah, is in the Old Testament so that Hebrews has helped me make those connections.
11:14
And they've helped me make the connections legitimately because I don't want to say, oh, there's the pomegranate on the temple is representative of Christ.
11:24
You know, the wooden nail is meant to be a fastener for things. It's not meant to be a picture of the cross.
11:31
So I like Hebrews. I want to preach the Gospel of John badly, but I have a friend who's hurting me and not allowing me to do that because he's preaching through it now.
11:42
You know, I don't know why I do these things. Years ago, Steve said I'd like to, you know, preach through a
11:49
Gospel. What do you think? I said, I'd preach through the Gospel of John if I were you. He, you know, thought about it and it's his choice and he picked the
11:56
Gospel of John. I should have told him like Maccabees or something so I could preach the
12:01
Gospel of John. I probably do Luke after Hebrews. I love the
12:07
Gospel of Mark because there's just a lot of action and you just see the Messiah setting his face towards Jerusalem.
12:14
But unlike me, Jesus, when he's interrupted, he has time for people.
12:20
It's part of the sovereign plan and he might even allow people to die to minister to other people and then will go and raise them from the dead.
12:30
And so I like Mark because we are all too busy and we're all running and it's pell -mell, hectic, back and forth, rushing around.
12:38
I think, you know what, there's a different way to go about it. So... Okay, good, next question.
12:49
Yes. Well, that's a good question. Why did
12:54
I decide to become a pastor? Well, I was going to try to split up all the questions tonight with...
13:02
What are you doing? You just walk up here? Is Santa on your way up? Is it money? Is it like a gift certificate or something?
13:10
I think someone has a question and everyone's name is checked off but I don't want to alter it.
13:19
Okay, alright, you may be seated. Why did
13:28
I become a pastor? Well, here's the thing. God makes pastors and so when you're studying the
13:35
Bible and things like that and I was a younger man at the time, I never really wanted to become a pastor because I am kind of vain and prideful if I don't think about things rightly and so I don't want to get up and preach unless I'm an excellent preacher.
13:51
When you have to listen to John MacArthur and James Montgomery Boyce and S. Lewis Johnson, how could
13:56
I get up and preach after listening to some of these very wonderful preachers, the best? And so I began to study the
14:03
Bible and I thought, alright, I'm going to go take 96 hours of seminary classes and I will quit before I take the preaching class because I'm not going to get up and preach.
14:13
There's no way I'm going to stand up there and preach. And it's hard to preach and it's difficult and it's a responsibility so I thought
14:20
I'd do all that but then at the very end I took the class anyway and began to preach and so how do you become a preacher?
14:28
There's two answers. God first works and then changes your heart and prepares you and then you respond and you have to study and learn and if you want to become a pastor on your own, you probably shouldn't.
14:42
Well, for you, you're a young lady, you shouldn't. But if you meet a man sometime who wants to be a pastor if he just says,
14:49
I'm going to do it no matter what I think that would be bad. He needs to say, God is forcing me to do this and I don't really have another option.
14:58
Nothing else will make me happy. Nothing else will satisfy me. I have other things I could do but I know
15:04
God is pushing me and compelling me with circumstances and situations and so how do you become a pastor?
15:11
It's almost like how do you become a Christian? God is gracious and He makes people Christians He makes people pastors and so I think it's what the
15:21
Lord did so that's a good question. Thank you. Kim, do you have a question?
15:33
Okay, other questions. Could be about anything. Yes? Israel. Israel the state because it can be
16:02
Israel the Christian Okay, thank you.
16:11
I'll repeat the question for the sake of the recording. What is the elder's view of Israel?
16:19
Is it spiritual Israel? Is it physical Israel? Is it national Israel? Nation of Israel?
16:28
What's the position? So now since I've answered a couple questions I'm going to ask
16:33
Harry to first talk about it. The other guys can chip in because Harry's the, he's like the Dallas guy.
16:39
He's yeah, he's He's got the Scofield reference
16:44
Bible My hope is built on nothing less than Scofield's notes Moody Press, that's right.
16:56
Respect. Well a quick answer is if we believed in spiritual
17:02
Israel, we wouldn't be baptizing believers because if there's no distinction between Israel and the church then we can just make the jump as some respected scholars and teachers do today that infant baptism is the equivalent to circumcision in the
17:27
Old Testament because there's spiritual Israel there's no distinction between Israel and the church so it just carries over into the
17:35
New Testament but we believe in believers baptism that's one natural effect in terms of ministry because we do believe that the church, the birthday of the church was in Acts 2 and so the rest of the so we believe in the that I believe that God does have a unique program for his people that's what distinguishes the church in Ephesians 2 it's
18:07
Jews and Gentiles under Christ but if we believe in a literal biblical hermeneutical interpretation of the scripture then the promises that were made in the
18:19
Old Testament God will bring to fulfillment for his people for the Jews that's a simple answer
18:27
Steve A lot of times this reminds me of a question that I had one moment of fame early on in my
18:39
Christian life that was that I got to be the second person to ask
18:44
John a question on a Sunday night my question was filled with import and nuance the first question really wasn't, the guy says what's the significance of Benjamin Netanyahu in the end times and this is like 1995 96 something like that that's exactly right
19:09
I was in the audience I was standing at the microphone what kind of question is that all that to say because we talked about it a little bit,
19:20
Janet and I did this morning listen, if Israel was wiped off the map tomorrow does that make
19:25
God's promises to Abraham, the Abrahamic covenant null and void and the answer is no we don't know that this is the end times
19:38
Israel that's going to exist at the end it may be, it may not be but what we do know is that God is going to fulfill everything that he said and that means the land promises to we believe, to national
19:53
Israel that there will be a country called Israel, that there will be a Jewish country there that there will be descendants physical descendants from Abraham unlike as Harry was saying, those who say that it's spiritually fulfilled, that's the key difference, is it going to be literally fulfilled to the descendants of Abraham, thus fulfilling the promise to Abraham or is it going to be figuratively fulfilled to the spiritual descendants of Abraham and we would say it's going to be a literal fulfillment and that literally
20:28
Jesus is going to rule and reign for a thousand years, literally from the temple mount, that there's a literal millennium and all that so we take a very literal view of revelation and eschatology so all that to say that I, you know people say well has the
20:51
Abrahamic I heard a covenantal theologian not long ago say that the land promises were already fulfilled to Israel and I'm like that's not true because it would go deep into it would go across the
21:06
Sinai actually further than Israel has ever owned and then it would go the other way into Syria and even into part of Iraq so that's never happened not in history so we believe that there's still a future fulfillment you want to say something?
21:26
something brief hello I want to tell you when
21:34
I got saved I was a dispensationalist and that's all I had actually heard I've never heard of covenant theology so for those of you who may not know it there's two broad categories one is covenant theology and the other one is dispensational but there's really not two camps
21:49
I think Pastor Steve you've done a series on this right? so you might find some Sunday schools earlier on this subject and there's various people that are in IBS thank you and there are people who hold to different levels of continuity between the old and the new between Israel and the church so depending on who you're reading you may see some texts of scriptures emphasized more and some of the other texts either spiritualized or changed or not changed they don't emphasize it enough or gloss over it in order to provide the emphasis in one area and since I know
22:30
Scott Goddard and I had to read the book continuity and discontinuity I read it and I said
22:35
I didn't understand anything I just read this book it's a heavy book but it's a helpful book because it tries to show some of those challenges in interpretation but I think coming back to what
22:46
Pastor Steve said if you hold on to a literal hermeneutic that the text that we're reading is to be literally interpreted especially
22:54
Revelation 20 talking about the thousand years the unconditional promises of God Abraham down if they are literally fulfilled or not and again there are others who would say maybe they are fulfilled or they're abrogated for some other reason but we do hold that national
23:14
Israel is distinct and there will be culmination when
23:19
Christ comes back and rules as the son of David on the throne of David and everything that has been promised and prophesied in the
23:26
Old Testament will be exactly fulfilled as God has promised. Anything Scott?
23:37
That's essentially what we talked about in the car a lot of it we talked about the different levels of covenantalism and we talked about dispensationalism and really just the views there between what
23:47
Israel is and how we focus on how Paul deals with it in Romans and in other texts where we know that it would be fulfilled and that's what we had discussed too so I think she just wanted to confirm
23:59
I was right over there. Oh good. Well I think what happens is when you need to talk about Israel and the future for Israel the battle really is found in the individual texts so if you read a systematic theology you might easily say oh that amillennial view of spiritual
24:16
Israel that sounds right because these people who teach that are not dumb.
24:23
If you read a systematic theology with dispensationalism you think oh that's right but the best thing for you to do is to go to Galatians 6 .16
24:30
the Israel of God and figure out what Paul means as he writes that. Your theology should come from the text.
24:38
You should be looking at Romans 9 and Romans 11 to find out what about this literal
24:46
Israel. Is it literal or is it not? It's fascinating when you do look in the
24:53
New Testament every time the word Israel is used it's used of a national literal
24:58
Israel except maybe Galatians 6 .16 I don't think it's an exception but that's where the amillennial people would go to.
25:07
When you hear dispensationalism in covenant theology one of the men had already said it you're dealing with is there a lot of continuity between the
25:14
Old and New Testament? Are there things that are different and there's discontinuity and the more continuity you have one program across the
25:23
Testament you will be more covenant in your theology. When you have a little more of a break Israel and church you'll be more dispensational.
25:33
And I think on the elder board we have different varying degrees. My guess would be and I could be wrong that out of all of our views of premillennialism and the future for Israel my guess is
25:46
I'm the most covenantal although I'm not a true covenant theologian and maybe
25:52
Scott and Harry are the least. That would just be a guess of mine but we're all within the same kind of range.
26:00
The word covenant is just where we get our word federal. Federal headship. We here at Bethlehem Bible Church if you believe what
26:07
I teach and these men would believe it. The federal headship of Adam. Adam was a federal head.
26:14
Jesus was the last Adam as a federal head. That kind of talk is covenant theology but we have a different type of hermeneutic and we still see a future for Israel.
26:24
So the elder board is unified in the federal head Adam the federal head
26:29
Jesus and one plan of salvation for Old and New Testament the spirit of God working the same way in the
26:36
Old Testament and New Testament with few exceptions. I believe in one people of God.
26:42
Harry might believe in two people of God. We haven't sat and talked about it. It's not that big a deal. But we are unified as an elder board.
26:50
Not to the minutia but generally where we're all premillennial and see a future for Israel.
26:59
Okay, yes. Well the question is how do they define spiritual
27:07
Israel? Well instead of what?
27:17
Oh yeah, please. Please do. I defer to the PhD at the
27:23
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Here's a confession. Covenant theology and maybe this might help think about how
27:34
I view this maybe five, six years back we had a lot of questions from within the body about covenant theology.
27:43
So until that point this was really not even a subject I deeply cared about. In the sense that I knew what the word said.
27:50
I knew how to interpret this text as needed. But then here were some sheep in the body who had a differing view and a strong differing view.
27:59
Not just you know I want to talk about this but I think this is right and you're wrong. Can we speak?
28:04
And so that's what brought me into thinking about studying covenant theology.
28:11
Even when I had to go to Southern it was an academic exercise. It wasn't really. I wanted to study it but it was very dense and I said
28:17
I'm passing this by because I'm able to study, understand and apply the word without a deep understanding of covenant theology.
28:27
So when we think of spiritual Israel and this is why
28:33
I'm saying I will defer to you because I have studied specific texts as people have brought them to me either from a standpoint of pater baptism.
28:40
So one of the members came and said I believe this is right. So I said you know I haven't studied this but let's look at this together.
28:46
So then I just walked through the text with this person and said I don't believe this is so help me understand how you see this as a pater baptist text.
28:55
And it turned out that that particular text didn't have anything. And so then we started looking at some commentators, covenant theologian commentators to say how do they make that interpretation.
29:05
And then as we study it we can realize you know there is a broader theology that is driving this particular commentator to come to that conclusion.
29:14
So when I used the term spiritual Israel I wasn't using my great
29:21
PhD resources and all the different texts that I've applied but the terms that I have heard people use them to me.
29:30
So when we look at texts in the New Testament talking about Israel they would often like Pastor Mike was saying many of these texts are literal texts talking about the nation of Israel but they would say this is not talking about Israel as a nation but we are the spiritual
29:48
Israel and I think the text is it in Ephesians they would use one of the texts to talk about how um
29:56
I might be mistaken but talking about the middle wall of division that is being broken and now that we are one and that there is everything that is talked about Israel is now the church and there is just one body or one people then it takes it further.
30:11
I'll defer to someone who knows. Well here's kind of an interesting thing.
30:19
This really is hermeneutic driven that is to say how you interpret scripture and you know the question is do you interpret for authorial intent which is what we would say but using a grammatical hermeneutic or literal grammatical hermeneutic which is to say we look at a text we look at it in its context and we try to figure out what the authorial intent is.
30:48
The covenantal theologians add something to that. They say they have a literal historical or literal grammatical historical hermeneutic and what that means is they interpret the
31:00
Old Testament in light of what the New Testament says. So things that are written in the
31:08
Old Testament may not even mean what or you know the original author may not have understood what he was writing.
31:15
For an example Isaiah chapter 2 the word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem now that's a prophetic vision that he's given here you know a word from the
31:32
Lord so to speak and it says it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the
31:39
Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains and shall be lifted up above the hills and all the nations shall flow to it and many people shall come and say come let us go up to the mountain of the
31:51
Lord to the house of the God of Jacob that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths for out of Zion shall go the law and the word of the
32:03
Lord from Jerusalem he shall judge between the nations and shall decide disputes for many peoples and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks nations shall not lift up a sword against nation neither shall they learn war anymore now if you read dispensational commentators they'll say that this is a view of the thousand year reign of Christ from Jerusalem if you read covenantal theologians they will say this is a prophecy about the church in the end times and I kept looking at the text and looking back at the commentaries looking at the text and I'm going
32:48
I can't see the church there they see the church throughout the Old Testament they say that there's one people of God that God always worked the same way to use shorthand here and we say that he always saved the same way but he didn't always work the same way
33:10
I mean obviously the Gentiles for the most part were not saved in the
33:15
Old Testament now the Gentiles are there's a transition that takes place when the church comes into being and that's what we believe what was the original question?
33:26
spiritual Israel sorry so again it has to do with is there really a spiritual
33:35
Israel those who are saved and they would point to this they would say this well is it true that physical
33:45
Israel in the Old Testament contained saved and unsaved people yes well then not all
33:52
Israel was really Israel and it's the same now so anyway all that to say that I think it kind of muddies the water when we start talking about that and I'd rather just talk about people who are saved and not saved so there's a lot to talk about with this let's have the next question please yes by the way we're glad to have you and you're supposed to be sitting over there remind me of your name
34:30
Lewis the concept of Christ died for our sins did not show up until Paul started preaching and from that point on now grace crucifixion everything redemption and has flowing out of Paul's writing so it seems to me the church based on scripture starts when
35:42
Paul was being converted so how can you reconcile the early church and so called past childhood teaching versus what we've been taught today grace based messages thank you
36:00
Lewis for the question let's see how could I summarize it maybe we could start with when did the church start and then how could the church
36:08
Lewis is asking how could church start in Acts 2 if substitutionary atonement wasn't preached until later when
36:18
Paul was preaching is that a fair summary something like that men process this a little bit you can do whatever you like we can edit the tape he's just a visitor while I'm fumbling along hopefully the men can find some text to what
36:45
I really want to do is reprocess the question that you gave so that I can frame it better in my own mind when
36:54
I think of Acts 2 so we have there the coming of the Holy Spirit we have the proclamation of the message by Peter and as you said
37:07
I don't recollect in Acts 2 there being a substitutionary atonement doctrine proclaimed when
37:13
I always look at preached messages in the text in a historical text like Acts in my mind
37:21
I know that this is a summary of the overall message but it contains the key points of the message so if he did speak on substitutionary atonement
37:30
I think Luke by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would have probably covered that so even though it may not be a verbatim every word that Peter said
37:38
I think you may be right in saying that that teaching is not there and when you said
37:46
Antioch that's where we have that believers were called
37:52
Christians and we have false teachings from later on that more explicitly lay that out but when you first gave the question here is how
38:02
I was processing it we are talking about the we are talking about two distinct things one is the salvation of believers and the other one is the formation of the church now salvation is just as dependent on the doctrine of substitutionary atonement as it is the church as a whole so we know that the people in Acts 2 who repented and believed were believers and even those before the church was formed who were saved like Jesus talking to the thief on the cross he is also saved with less than wholesome understanding of what happens in the time of salvation in understanding everything that Christ has done except that he needed to repent and believe and he trusted in the work of Christ even if he didn't understand all the implications of that work now with that said how that applies to the church
39:01
I'll let these men respond welcome by the way
39:14
Louis good to have you with us Acts 2 Acts 1 -8 the overall theme overall outline of the book you shall go and be my they were talking about the kingdom of Israel they are just focused and Acts 2 is addressing
39:27
Jews they are talking about the kingdom of Israel it's not for you to know right now time of epics but you will receive power on high when the
39:34
Holy Spirit comes on you you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem Acts 1 -7 Judea and Samaria Acts 8 -12 and to the ends of the earth 13 -28 with Paul's three missionary journeys so when
39:47
Christ said that in Christ's mind as the son of God before his ascension when he said that to the disciples do you think he was thinking now when you are going to be witnesses in Jerusalem Acts 1 -7 it's not fully legit because the full progressive revelation of substitution and atonement hasn't been taught like it has by the
40:07
Apostle Paul when you are going to be witnesses in Judea and Samaria was Christ thinking well it's not going to be fully legitimate yet even though you've got
40:15
Philip going to an Ethiopian eunuch but it will really be legit from Acts 13 through 28 going back to a thorough intent
40:22
I don't think I can say that that's what Christ knowing the progression of what was going on in Acts that he was thinking ok why would he say that to the early disciples knowing that he would be the one calling
40:37
Saul right in Acts 9 he himself the risen Lord calling Saul and yet in Acts 1 -8 he makes it very clear that you would be my witnesses, witnesses of Christ and what
40:46
I've done and that's what Peter did you mentioned earlier that he emphasized that the
40:52
Jews killed him yes, twice he did that and that's why they responded what shall we do?
40:58
they were cut to the heart but he didn't just emphasize that he also emphasized earlier in Acts 2 this
41:07
Jesus Acts 2 -23 delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, it almost brings you back to Isaiah 55 where it says the
41:15
Lord, it was the Lord's will to crush him, the Father's will to crush the Son, and that's what he's making reference to, it was by the predetermined plan of God to crush him you crucified, so we see
41:29
God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, and then he culminates with the Lordship of Jesus Christ let all the house of Israel therefore know certain that God has made him both
41:37
Lord and Christ, and then when you jump ahead to, you know, Judea and Samaria and Peter goes to the house of Cornelius, and the circumcised believers in Acts 11 are like, what?
41:48
they were, they were coming down on him when he gave the report, right? and they're like, no, no, no
41:54
God has granted repentance also to the Gentiles so then we get into the third phase of the progression of Acts, Paul and of course, then we see everything through Paul's missionary journeys and then you have to look again, progressive relation to the letters of Peter who was the main instrument early on in the book of Acts, and what he says specifically about the atonement of Christ as a substitutionary atonement so I don't believe that in Christ's mind when he gave it, it really for me stemmed from the authorial in Acts 1 .10
42:27
as Pastor Steve said, Acts 1 .8 with Dr. Luke the Greek wrote it Christ said to the disciples you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem in Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth, in Christ's mind he wasn't thinking only the third leg of that missionary work was legitimate because it was under Paul, all of it was legitimate.
42:49
Lewis, you can certainly talk to the folks afterwards if you want and discuss it, I think early on apart from the discussion of the church and when it started some people think the church starts in Genesis when the language of crucifixion is used by Peter, I think they all knew this is the gospel where Christ is crucified on behalf of others.
43:10
He might not use the language of 1 Corinthians 15 he might not say for our sins but later he does discuss sins and Jesus on the cross my
43:19
God, my God, why have you forsaken me? He's the sin bearer there and so when I say crucifixion that's a summary word that's a word that just summarizes the death burial and resurrection of Jesus I could say,
43:34
I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified, the work of Christ when
43:39
I see crucifixion early on, I think those men were understanding, this is not just the crucifixion of any man like the other 19 ,000
43:48
Jews this is the crucifixion of the Messiah from Isaiah 53 so even though you're new and a visitor and I'm not trying to overtly offend you,
43:57
I would disagree I think when you're preaching, not you but when Peter's preaching this, he is preaching the gospel any comment back or other clarifying thought?
44:08
here's what I would do, see if you were a regular attender, I'd say this, Lewis why are you asking the question?
44:14
so I can know what's behind your mind to get there, there's a reason why you're asking the question and yet, the misunderstanding of the passage is caused by misunderstanding ok, good, thank you for your honesty and the clarification of that,
45:08
I appreciate it, and we too agree that you can make the Bible say whatever you'd like if you take it out of context that people don't have a systematic view of looking at the text, and so I think even though the last few weeks that you've been here the last couple months were devoted to systematic verse by verse teaching to show the context and that's what we'd like to do, good, thank you ok, it's almost time's up we haven't even done what we planned on originally that's ok, any other questions before we close up?
45:39
something you're thinking about, Scott Goddard do you have any questions? ok, alright yes,
45:48
Wesley are you talking specifically about 9 -6 with taking of human life?
46:19
ok, well I just did hear today on NPR that they have a new synthetic plant -based hamburger that even has kind of plant blood coming out of it so would that count as the blood that you're referring to?
46:37
it's Impossible Burger in San Francisco is the name of the place alright
46:44
I'll let one of these, since I've talked a lot I'll let these other men, Scott Brown do you want to say anything about 9 -6?
46:50
well I will say that 9 -6 is also referenced from, a lot of times it can be cross -referenced out of Romans 13 where we're to be submissive to the government and it specifically relates back to this, that this is a governmental requirement, right?
47:05
the government has to fulfill its promises of protecting the people and protecting its property or its sovereignty in essence and it does reference this as a capital punishment means of the government from my understanding
47:21
I am actually, by the way as you said, everything else seems to apply to a
47:35
Christian alright, well, Wesley I will give you a quick answer the other guys can chime in God has a character and nature, correct?
47:46
and we would think that he has an immutable character, a holy character a gracious character, a just character the attributes of God and since he is a holy
47:56
God and righteous, he then gives laws to his people that manifest his nature they are holy laws and just laws and righteous laws, as Paul would say in Romans so it makes sense to me when
48:10
I see God talking to Adam and Eve God talking to Noah God talking to Moses because Genesis 9 is pre -Mosaic covenant
48:19
God talks to Moses God talks to the New Testament church since he values life and people are made in his likeness and image it only makes sense that you are not supposed to kill people pre -Mosaic law you are not supposed to kill people
48:33
Mosaic law you are not supposed to kill people New Testament commands because it is a reflection of God's nature so when you talk about the unchanging moral law of God I don't think it is the
48:44
Ten Commandments per se I think it is things like that which some of the commandments contain thou shalt not kill so then when
48:51
I read about the blood I think, ok, is that the unchanging moral law of God? don't eat these animals with the blood you know how
48:58
I like my steak if it is cooked one minute it is cooked too long so what about the blood that is in there so you think, ok what does
49:06
God have in his nature when it comes to these things why does he have food laws here for Noah and some food laws for the people of Israel but then in the
49:16
New Testament he said what Jesus said it it is what comes out of the heart is what defiles eat what you want he thus declared all foods clean and then in 1st
49:28
Timothy chapter 4 Paul says if you have a thankful heart you eat whatever you want so my question to you now is since you like to ask me questions
49:38
I like to ask you questions too would it be a sin if you drank 8 ounces of cow blood in the morning you can do whatever you want well whatever a non -christian does is sin that's easy like you said whatever the biological elements are in there that's not the point so I wasn't sure if I understood that you know what
50:45
I like about you Wesley you almost said how do you feel about it but then you corrected yourself how we understood it because I feel like drinking blood is really gross but how
50:54
I think about it it wouldn't be necessarily a sin unless your conscience wouldn't let you because you're looking at Genesis 9 thinking don't drink blood but as we've learned to whom is it written what's the purpose of that what's going on what's
51:06
Moses say what's the law of Christ in the New Testament so I would tell an unbeliever this is not for you and don't we say that on Sunday this is for Christian people this is for the body of Christ to remember
51:18
Jesus Christ life and death soon return this is for Christians and whatever
51:25
I think a non -Christian does it's sin but some things are worse sin than others it's a sin for an unbeliever to read the
51:33
Bible because if he doesn't have faith it's not right it's better that he reads the Bible than he reads pornography but none of that stuff is righteous because he's got the bad heart that goes along with it and to answer your question we would tell unbelievers not to do that because it's for believers and if God says it's for believers and an unbeliever does it is that sin the answer to your direct question is a direct yes it is
51:58
Pastor Mike, to think that this guy taught your children in Sunday school Wesley will also be preaching this
52:13
Saturday he's one of the students ok good any other comments
52:19
Pradeep do you have anything else you want to say can I just maybe just comment sure I think it's good to ask questions like this because I think what's underlying this question is in in the time of Noah is that command universal like the way it was given to Adam and you know as distinct from what was given to Moses and I think what
52:51
Pastor Mike said really helped clarify a few things I've been thinking about this question because we did chat on this yes and in my mind even when you think of the actually here's a nice interesting story after I got saved little while later as I was reading the
53:10
Bible I got to Genesis 1 to 3 and then I said oh you know what this was what
53:17
God told Adam first before fall and everything else therefore it must be more holy to not eat non -vegetarian at all you know just go back to plant food because that was the first kind of food that was given and so for a whole year as a believer
53:37
I was just very committed to not eating plant anything other than vegetarian and in India this is very challenging my mother was a very patient lady she would cook two meals just one without any meat for me and I had to go to some weddings celebrations where it's always meat and the people there somehow would find out about it and they'd just have a special meal for me and I thought it was just very deeply spiritual the
54:04
Lord was providing all these things I was just causing a lot of inconvenience to a lot of people around me and then a year later as I was studying the word
54:12
I realized you know New Testament has a lot to say about this Jesus ate fish he wasn't sinning and there's like Pastor Mike was quoting there's a lot of scriptures that actually make those things clean and I think
54:25
Acts 15 is another verse maybe to look at talking about this concept of blood you know what was the reference there is it an offense to the
54:32
Jewish people or is this something that is a universal command that's repeated so I think those were helpful to process the context as well as the moral character of God versus the sin that is applicable for people but that was a great question thank you well thanks for coming out tonight for Q &A you can always email us or talk to us behind the scenes
54:56
I know these men are committed to serve you and to help you in your walk with Christ we are going to pray and we are going to be dismissed
55:06
Father I thank you today that we can worship you I think about your sovereign hand in everything and it's refreshing it's encouraging it's comforting to know and what you do you do well and for all of us we have a lot to learn and a lot to understand when we work through difficult things but to think one day in heaven all the answers will be given we won't even have to think through it we will just know but even there in heaven we'll still be finite and you'll be infinite and we'll learn and grow and have more reasons to worship you