Who's RIGHT About the Book of Job: Alex or Cliffe?! | Pastor Reacts

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Alex O 'Connor presses Cliff and Stuart Connectly on the real message of Job. O 'Connor says

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Job is about squashing intellectual questions. Connectly says it's about the fairness of God.

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But wait a second. Who's right, though? The atheist or the Christian? We're about to find out. But first, welcome back to Wise Disciple.

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My name is Nate, and I'm helping you become the effective Christian that you are meant to be, which entails understanding what the book of Job is really saying to us.

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Make sure to like, sub, and share this one around, but only if it gets you thinking. We're going to get right into it.

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Here we go. How suspicious are you of something like Christianity insofar as it does seem to answer something like existential dread?

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In the way that you say, look, if you don't believe in God, then it ends at death, and when you suffer, your suffering is meaningless.

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Whereas if you become a Christian, it fills you with meaning, it fills you with purpose, it sort of brings you self -assurance that life is all worth living.

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And I think to myself, okay, is the problem of evil a response to Christianity, or is Christianity a response to the problem of evil?

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Are there a bunch of people suffering, unsure of their existence? They don't know why they're here. They don't know why they suffer. They don't know why good people suffer and bad people don't.

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And so, here's a story we can tell ourselves which will help us overcome that. And there are two theses here.

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One is that that's because it's true, and this is how the world is supposed to be. And one is that, well, it's because of all of the suffering and the meaninglessness that people have created the story of Christianity to overcome it.

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I mean, I'm always—my suspicion of a position almost exactly correlates with how convenient it is, either spiritually or politically.

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And in this case, it seems like Christianity is like the ultimate spiritual convenience, given the world we find ourselves in. I mean, does that trouble you at all?

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So, a couple of things here. First, I mean, I immediately recognize a move here that—

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I do not believe it's manipulative. It could be. I just don't think it is. But it's purely a move that provides advantage to folks should they choose to do this kind of thing on the debate stage.

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And so, I would be remiss if I did not point this out. So, what I'm talking about is when

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O 'Connor sets up his question in a very lengthy and, again, advantageous way, you know.

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If he were on the debate stage and doing this, I would call this laying a framework. Right? Have you heard me talk about this before?

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And he's laying this particular framework in such a manner that he's forcing both of his interlocutors here, both

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Connectleys, to do one of two things. Either they're going to adopt his framework, and then they're going to struggle to answer this question, or they're going to reject his framework and, you know, kind of perhaps sidestep it like Neo and the

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Matrix, and then further their own point. But this idea that—did you hear what he said?

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Well, Christianity is incredibly convenient with regard to the venture of suffering and pain.

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It seems like a suspiciously convenient story to tell in this regard. So then, is the problem of evil a response to Christianity, or is

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Christianity a response to the problem of evil? Can you see how, through framing it like that, that O 'Connor is limiting the

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Christians here in how they respond? By the way, the answer is neither. Okay? The problem of evil, as a philosophical issue that humanity has wrestled with for millennia, would exist whether Christianity was around or not.

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And also, Christianity cannot be reduced down to some kind of response to the problem of evil.

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I mean, that's hardly the only thing it is. If you want to say that Christianity is a response to something, you know, then okay, it's a response to the person and teaching of Jesus Christ, who, by the way, is the personal fulfillment of the teaching and promises of Tanakh, or the

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Old Testament. So let's see if the Connectleys adopt O 'Connor's framework here, or reject it.

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One of the reasons I respect Siddhartha Gautama Buddha is because he struggled through the problem of suffering, and I respect that highly.

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But his conclusion I find to be totally inadequate. Suffering is an illusion. Are you kidding me?

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No, suffering is not an illusion. Suffering is something that every single one of us is going to experience. And that is why

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I'm so grateful for the biblical worldview that says, God created and He did a good job in Genesis chapter 1, but then the world was cursed.

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The world got unhinged, and suffering and chaos and evil and injustice entered the experience of humankind as a result of human rebellion against God.

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And then it's fascinating to watch different parts of the Bible address the issue of suffering. And one of my favorites is the book of Job, and I think one of the main points of Job is, life is unfair,

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God is fair, don't get the two mixed up. Life is unfair, God is fair, don't wave your fist in God's face when you suffer.

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Is that the main message? Is that the big idea coming out of the book of Job?

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That's the question. By the way, what do you think? We're live right now. Have you done a study of Job?

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What were your conclusions? Let me know in the comments. I'm taking a look at them as we do this video, because we're going to get into all of this in just a moment.

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Connectly says that the point is, life is unfair, God is fair, so don't get the two mixed up.

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Just so you understand where my mind is at, I don't think that's the message of Job. But we'll get there, so stick with me.

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Because it's not God's fault, it's the unfairness of life that is smacking the living daylights out of you. And then when you get to Christ, you see that God is a suffering

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God, who becomes a human being, and life kicked his teeth in, no question about it. And he suffered, and then he bled and died on a cross.

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And I think right at that point, you're confronted by one of the most amazing things of God's character, which is his humility.

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He humbles himself, becomes a human being, and suffers in order to provide the ultimate solution for suffering, forgiveness in eternal life.

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And then when you get to the book of Revelation at the end of the Bible, you've got in Revelation 21, for he will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there'll be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order has been wiped away, behold, all things have become new.

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And that is the hope that we have as followers of Christ, that Jesus will return one day. There'll be a day of judgment, a heaven and a hell.

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We will receive new resurrection bodies to live for eternity with God in heaven. So, by the way,

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I haven't seen this whole video, so I'm not sure how this is going to go with O 'Connor, but I doubt he'll be satisfied with that answer.

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And let me go ahead and get in front of this. I think it's because there was not an opportunity to step back a little bit and maybe investigate some of the assumptions going into this discussion, okay?

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I saw the very beginning of this interview. I mean, we're only about 10 minutes in, and it just seemed like O 'Connor was eager to jump right into the deep end of the pool.

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You know what I mean? But no time was given to investigate what some of the presuppositions are for both parties, you know?

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What is O 'Connor assuming coming into the discussion about, say, the meaning or the purpose of life, right?

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Because I suppose that whatever his answer is, it's going to entail avoiding suffering altogether.

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You know what I mean? And if avoidance of suffering is part and parcel of your worldview, well then, of course, the book of Job and other parts of the

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Bible are going to be extremely difficult to read. But if you can let go of your

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Western individualistic assumptions and try to see the Bible from an Eastern or even a

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Middle Eastern view, well then you're already beginning with pain and suffering as a real feature of your regular experience.

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You know what I mean? So in other words, suffering is not something that you avoid. It's something that you need to do well.

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Can you already see the difference here? That's where a lot of this clash exists. It's because Christianity doesn't want you to avoid suffering.

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It wants you to walk through suffering well. As a matter of fact, the Christian life is an invitation to suffering.

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What did Bonhoeffer say? When Christ calls a man, he bids him to come and die, right?

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So I think it would be wise to spend some time identifying and unpacking some of the assumptions going into this discussion, or else these gentlemen, they won't be able to have as productive a conversation that they could have.

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Which means if my secular atheist friend and I are standing on either side of the bed where the little babies or young child is lying, whose body is being shredded by some weird grotesque disease, the question is, is there a solution?

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And if my atheist secular friend is going to be honest, there is no solution. Hunk of primordial slime evolved to a higher order is falling apart.

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Tough luck, kid. That's just fake destiny chance. But a follower of Christ will walk to the other side of the bed and will hold that child's hand and seek to comfort that child.

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But in Jesus Christ, we have a suffering God who provides the ultimate solution for suffering and death, eternal life in heaven.

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So I feel like in so many words, you're saying the same thing as me, but concluding something different. That is like, the atheist also wants to comfort that child.

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They also want to, but they find themselves unable to do so because they know that it is all meaningless, that it is all just molecules and motion, that suffering has no redemption or justification.

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Well, be careful, because if the implicit sort of suggestion is that that's what the

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Christian also believes, then that's not true. So, you know, again, you see how the framing of the discussion becomes an important feature of this back and forth.

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And for those in the audience who are not aware of this kind of a thing, they're going to side with whoever lays a better framework in their minds.

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As of this recording, I think this video has, what, like almost a million views.

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So it just really comes down to the way that this discussion is being framed by both parties.

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You know, I'm not saying that Connectly is not doing that either, but O 'Connor certainly is doing this very, very astutely and very well, right?

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Connectly, by the way, is not—he's not saying what O 'Connor is suggesting coming from the atheist side.

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In other words, in the world where God exists, nothing is meaningless, you know, in the

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Christian scheme of things, and therefore nothing is wasted, you know, not even your suffering. And so then you say, well, hold on, if you're a believer in Christ, that problem goes away.

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And I go, ah, that sounds pretty good. It almost sounds too good to be true. You see what I'm saying? Like, it's so convenient. It's so brilliant at overcoming the most fundamental, deepest, existential problems of humanity that it sort of garners some suspicion.

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I mean, what is the message of the Book of Job? Like, who the hell are you to ask questions? You know, don't even go there.

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Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? That doesn't come until later. No. It's okay to ask, but then he gets shamed because he's asking too much, it seems.

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Yeah. Well, perhaps we can do a sort of Job exegesis. But you see what I'm saying about the convenience thing, right?

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Perhaps we will. Well, I mean, I don't know how in -depth we can get into Job, but we can certainly investigate the message of the

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Book of Job, because here it seems we have an alternative interpretation of Job from O 'Connor.

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So again, remember, Keneckley said that the message of Job is that life is unfair, but God is fair. O 'Connor appears to be suggesting that Job is really about squashing intellectual discovery, intellectual questions.

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Stop asking those pesky questions, because how dare you, right? But is that the message of Job?

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I would say no. Everything you've just said, where you've said, well, look, we live in a world and suffering is real. Yes, I agree. And like, as an atheist, you're going to look at that and you're going to go, this is all meaningless.

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Yes, I agree. And Christianity allows you to say it's not. Yes, I agree. But, you know, like, so would a great many beliefs that I could probably invent.

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They wouldn't be as comprehensive or impressive as the Christian worldview, for sure. But the very fact that it serves that purpose makes me suspicious as to its psychological origin.

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You bet. But when you love and when you are loved, it's almost too good to be true. Yeah. When you experience joy, real joy, that's not based on the circumstances of life, but that goes far deeper than that.

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It's almost too good to be true. You're right. And hope, hope for a future that doesn't end in the grave, where there's more to us than just becoming fertilizer.

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Instead, we're human beings created to enjoy God for eternity. And God has put eternity in our hearts.

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And that's why we have this longing for eternal life. Yeah, maybe it is too good to be true. And that's why a careful study of the

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Gospels, I think, is so important to find out, did Jesus really rise from the dead or not? Is this just a pipe dream, or is there some substance to this?

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Well, that's a great response in light of how

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O 'Connor is, again, framing this discussion. So Connectly says, well, if it's too good to be true, so what, you know?

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Isn't that how love feels? It feels amazing, you know? It feels like a fairy tale, you know? And that is,

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I mean, while that's a great response, I would still argue that the better one would be to reject the framing of the question and seek to clarify some of the assumptions going into this discussion in the first place, you know?

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Well, perhaps we can do that. I mean, there are so many angles to take here. I don't know if there's anything more you want to say on Job before we do the resurrection stuff, because I read the book of Job.

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I'm fascinated by Job. I guess my only question, was your point that Job wasn't allowed to doubt?

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He didn't want to doubt? Or what was exactly your point? He's allowed to doubt. But, of course, who knows what Job is really about? There's a kind of irony in Job.

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My old tutor, Dr. Catherine Southwood, actually thinks that Job should be read as a comedy. It's so many different interpretations. Well, that's interesting, because,

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I mean, so stop me if you heard this one, but Job actually follows the format of a

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Greek play. Have you ever noticed that when you read it? You know, if you read the book all the way through, you'll notice that there are these long monologues from the various characters, right?

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You've got Job, you've got his friends, even his wife, who has one of the most memorable lines in the entire

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Bible. But Job and his friends particularly, well, and ultimately God at the end of the story as well, they're taking up the most real estate in the book.

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Why? Because they have these long speeches, these long monologues, right? This is commensurate with other

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Greek -style plays where the various characters have these long, drawn -out monologues.

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You can think of Antigone or Oedipus Rex or whatever. I mean, these are all things that I taught in the classroom when

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I was a high school teacher. Which, by the way, okay, so just make sure you understand.

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I'm not saying that the book of Job is a work of fiction. I'm pointing out that it appears that the book of Job was written in a certain style.

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It was written in order to be performed, as a matter of fact. Has anybody ever told you that before?

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I'm not sure. Anyway, so when O 'Connor's professor makes the observation, you know, she's probably thinking of like a

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Greek comedy. I would say Job is more of a drama, but anyway. There's an irony underlying the book of Job, which is that Job never knows and never finds out why he's suffering.

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But we do, the reader does. We're in the knowledge, we know what's going on. We know that this is essentially God's counsel, including the accuser, one of the earliest inclusions of this character of Satan, who is essentially challenging

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God and saying, like, you know, he only worships you because you're good to him. And Satan says, okay, give me some authority over his life.

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Let me do some things to him. And God allows him, and so he's suffering. And we know this as the reader. And Job is left with his friends to spend most of the—

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Well, hold on, hold on. Wait, wait. What was the point of that, though? Right?

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He had me, but then he lost me, right? Take a look at the beginning of the story here with me. This is

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Job chapter 1. By the way, as usual, I'm pulling up my trusty Logos Bible app to read the

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Bible with you here on YouTube. Logos has just updated to a monthly subscription to make things even easier to use right away.

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It's also upgraded to a brand -new search feature. I wonder if I should just make a video on that, too, because it's super cool.

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Anyway, it's a game changer for those of you who want to, for example, get a deeper understanding of the book of Job. Okay?

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So go check out my special link for Logos. It's in the notes below. Take a look at Job chapter 1. I'm going to read the first few verses here just for reference so we're fresh on this.

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There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. And that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.

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There were born to him seven sons and three daughters. He possessed 7 ,000 sheep, 3 ,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and very many servants, so that this man was the greatest of all the people of the east.

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So Job's ballin'. Okay? He's got some cheddar, and it's making him mo' better. I'm sorry.

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I didn't know. We'll edit that out. Okay, let me move on to verse 4. His sons used to go and hold a feast in the house of each one on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.

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And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and consecrate them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all.

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For Job said, It may be that my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts, thus

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Job did continually. Okay. I won't be able to get into this in depth, but there's a clue right here about who

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Job is. So if you want to, like, go and do a study after this video, I encourage you. Like, there is a clue right in verse 5 of the nature of Job's relationship with God, the dynamic that they have, right?

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And you can see it play out in what Job says specifically in verse 5. Okay? So I'll go ahead and say this right now at the outset because we'll hit this at the end.

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Job is blameless. He's an upright man. Okay? Verse 8 is going to tell us that.

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We're about to get there. But that doesn't mean that he's wise. I'm going to let that sink in.

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It doesn't mean that Job has nothing to learn or that there's nothing more for him to do in order to become perfected.

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And I'm trying to choose my words very carefully because all of these words have specific biblical import.

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Okay? Let's go to verse 6. Now, there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the

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Lord, and Satan also came among them. The Lord said to Satan, From where have you come?

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Satan answered the Lord and said, From going to and fro on the earth and from walking up and down on it. And the

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Lord said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth? Here it is.

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A blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. Okay.

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Notice what is specifically being said about Job, and notice what is not being said.

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Okay? You know, so at this point right here, we could just stop the whole thing.

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Right? The story could end. You know? Everything's great. Job is blameless. Everybody goes home.

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God's thoroughly pleased with Job. Right? What more can be said? But watch what happens next.

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Watch who initiates the trouble. Verse 9. Then Satan answered the Lord and said,

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Does Job fear God for no reason? Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has on every side?

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You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.

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And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand.

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Only against him do not stretch out your hand. So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. Okay. I read this passage, verses 1 through 12, because I'm trying to get at why.

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Right? O 'Connor brought this up. Why is this happening? O 'Connor says, Well, it's because God has a conversation with Satan.

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No. That's, to be very precise, because I think it's important, that's the specific action that's taking place.

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But why does the action take place? Why are those specific words being spoken? Why does

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Satan say what he says, and then why does God respond back in the specific way that he does?

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If you can answer those particular questions, then you'll get at the why, or the purpose behind what happens to Job later.

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And we can say this at the outset, because you can see this clearly in the passage. Satan is suggesting that the only reason

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Job fears God, and therefore is blameless, right, and he's upright, is because God has blessed him.

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Did you catch that? In other words, the nature of Job's relationship with God is transactional.

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You know? God blesses and Job fears. I mean, that's basically what that looks like.

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But, if that's the case, then the reverse should be true. Okay? You following this? If God removes blessing,

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Job will no longer fear God. He will despise, right? He will curse God. By the way, notice that God has placed a hedge of protection right there, verse 10, around Job and his family.

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You see that? And even when Satan tells God to, you know, why don't you go harm

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Job, right? Did you notice God chooses not to do that? It's not God. Instead, what

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God does is he removes his protection, the hedge, but not around Job himself.

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Again, the question is why. You know? And if you can pay close attention to the clues, then you can figure this out.

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And we'll probably hit a lot of this more in a moment, but let's go back to the discussion here. The book.

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Just like, what went wrong? What have I done? Could it be this? Well, you must have done a sin. No, that's not right. This isn't right. Until finally

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God speaks back and doesn't reveal the answer, but says, like, you know, who the hell are you to ask these questions?

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Who do you think you are? You know nothing about how the world works or how it was put together or anything like that.

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And then Job, immediately upon seeing this, repents in dust and ashes. And then he sort of gets a house back and he gets a new wife. But wait a second.

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I think the solution... Well, does... Okay. That does track with the story, right? Okay. Sorry.

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Let's do this real quick. Just so it's fresh. Just so we know what's going on. Take a look at Job chapter 38.

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You know? The Lord responds to Job. Is this what O 'Connor just said? And listen to how the

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Lord responds to Job. Verse 1. The Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

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Dress for action like a man. I will question you, and you make it known to me.

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All right? Then let's go 40.

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I think it's right here. 40 verse 2. The Lord said to Job, Shall a fault finder contend with the Almighty?

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He who argues with God, let him answer it. Take a look at verse 7. Dress for action. There it is again.

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Dress for action like a man. I will question you, and you make it known to me. That sounds pretty harsh, right?

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But anyway, that's for reference, okay? This is after Job has gone on and on about his own righteousness, the blameless quality of his character, in order to suggest, this is what

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Job was saying, that there is no reason for all of these bad things to have befallen him.

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Job even goes on to say this. Look at this. I think it's in chapter 31.

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Oh, yeah. Verse 35. Oh, that I had one to hear me. Here is my signature.

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Let the Almighty answer me. Oh, that I had the indictment written by my adversary.

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So Job, he doesn't even know what the Satan told God. He doesn't know why all of these things have happened, you know?

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And yet, so here's something interesting. Job actually appears to align with the dynamic of relationship that Satan suggested that Job had with God.

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Remember, Satan, in the beginning of Job, suggested that Job had a transactional relationship with God.

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Well, here, Job bemoans the fact that he didn't do anything wrong in order to suggest, yes,

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God and I have a transactional relationship here, and God didn't hold up his end of the bargain, right?

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So the reason why I'm pointing this out is there was something that Job needed to learn. That's actually what makes

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Job part of what's called the wisdom literature in the Old Testament. Job, and by extension, all of us as readers, we need to understand the wisdom of this story so that we can apply it to our lives.

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The wisdom there that God gives Job is not just shut up and don't ask questions. I think the real solution is the presence of God.

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God gives Job an overwhelming sense, I am with you. And I think that is where real comfort comes in this life when we begin to grasp the fact that God is with me.

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No, he doesn't. You're right. He does not answer any of Job's intellectual questions, but he gives him a profound sense, Job, I am with you.

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And I think that is a crucial ingredient in a follower of Christ dealing with suffering. No, I ultimately don't know why my little niece died at the age of seven in a horrible car wreck.

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But as I'm with my brother, who's a transplant surgeon, he's far more intelligent than I'll ever be. No, I can't answer those questions.

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Why didn't the babysitter see the stop sign? Why did the babysitter go right through the stop sign in a pickup truck just at 55 miles an hour, goes crashing into the car, sending my seven -year -old niece to an early grave?

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We don't know why, but we do know that God is with us. And to know that God is with us, that he grieves with us, and that he's not just sitting on his hands, but he's going to provide the ultimate solution,

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I think that helps us tremendously when it comes to comfort and dealing with this incredibly difficult problem of suffering.

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But do you think that is... Oh, boy. With all due respect to Connectly, I don't see that in the story of Job.

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The idea that God is with us, and so therefore we can derive comfort through suffering...

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By the way, that is a biblical concept that's taught elsewhere. I just don't see it in Job. That's not something that is there in the text.

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Now, maybe it's buried so deep that I don't even see it. Okay, so Connectly sees it and I don't. But again,

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I think this conversation is missing the deeper message of Job. And we're about to go there ourselves, so buckle up.

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The message of Job? I mean, if God had spoken from the whirlwind and said, Job, I hear you.

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You can't understand what's happening to you, but know that I'm here. Know that I love you. Then maybe.

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But he doesn't. He seems almost angry. He seems like... There's this one translation. I found this poetic translation. I wish

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I could remember who it was. It sort of tries to keep some of the verse of Job. And he has God say, instead of, you know, gird up thy loins,

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I will question you, and you'll give me an answer. He says, you know, stand up like a man. I'm going to ask you some questions.

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Please instruct me. That's what he says. Please instruct me. It's almost sarcastic, right? Because the feeling that you get from God here is like this terrifying rant, right?

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It doesn't scream love to me. It doesn't scream, hey, I'm with you. I'm holding your hand. It screams, you should, like, almost be, like, terrified into submission.

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You know, like, Job repents in dust and ashes. He sort of falls to the floor. The image in your head is a dramatic one.

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You know, it's not like Jesus healing a paralytic or something. It's not this nice Renaissance happy smiley image.

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It's this thunderstorm, this whirlwind. And so, like, the message I get is one of God almost feeling that you have no right to answer.

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And that's why I do make that criticism. It's not that he's not allowed to ask questions, but it's almost like he has no right to do so. It's like when bad things happen to you, it's not just you won't be able to understand this, but you have no right to ask questions that you couldn't hope to understand the answer to.

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But within it, O 'Connor, he's right in this sense. Job has a very strong reaction to God's response to him.

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Okay? Take a look. Take a look again here with me. It's right in chapter 42.

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So this is what Job says. In verse... I think it's...

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Yeah, let's start in verse 1. Job answered the Lord and said, I know that you can do all things and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

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So then look at how he responds. I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me which

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I did not know. Look at verse 5. I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you.

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Therefore, I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes. That right there, ladies and gentlemen, is someone who has just learned something incredibly valuable.

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And now what he's doing verbally is he's aligning to this new lesson. But wait a second.

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Remember, what was the accusation of the Satan in the beginning of the story? Okay? You remember

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Job 1, verse 11? What did Satan say Job was going to do? Stretch out your hand,

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O God, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face. What does

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Job really do in response to God? Right? Which, by the way, so here's something to consider.

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God gives Job every bit of opportunity to curse him. Does he not? It's almost as if God, he's doing all of this on purpose for a reason.

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It's almost as if God is ensuring that the slander of the Satan can be given every opportunity to be fulfilled.

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Right? So in other words, when Job refuses to curse God, because that's where it is right here, he has this opportunity, and what does he say?

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I despise myself. That was the accusation. That's the opposite of what the

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Satan said Job would do in the beginning. And when Job responds in that way, there can now be no excuse that can be made other than Job fears

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God, which is where God originally started with Job in the first place. You see, this is what

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I mean. I don't think that we've really wrestled with the story all that much.

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I think a lot of us have tried, and then we've become incredibly uncomfortable, and so we haven't tried to, like, we do this move, and it's,

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Christians do this, people in church do this, people outside of church do this. We try to, like, reduce the story down to something that is more easily digestible and explainable, and then we just move on.

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No. The story of Job, it forces us to wrestle with some serious themes, themes that actually you cannot microwave an answer for, things where you cannot in one conversation, and I don't mean to, you know,

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I don't mean to denigrate what's going on in this conversation. I think this conversation actually is a wonderful model of what we should be doing as Christians with non -Christians.

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But you can't get to the deeper pearls of wisdom that the book of Job has for you in a 45 -minute conversation, or however long this was.

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Can't do it. This is something that's going to take years and years of you chewing on the same story over and over again before it finally starts to dawn on you, you know?

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Yeah, here's a question. Why did God appear in a whirlwind? You know what the answer is that I've come to?

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God is who we need him to be. Think about that. In the moment that Job was getting angry at God and bemoaning his plight,

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God comes to him in the midst of a storm. Why a storm? Have you ever asked that question? Why a whirlwind?

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Is not Job like this whirlwind? Is not Job with his rant against God like this bundle of chaos that has succumbed to his emotions in light of his circumstances?

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And why? Well, because Job appears to have thought that the dynamic of his relationship with God traded on transaction.

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And that's not true. The righteous will actually suffer just like the unrighteous.

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Okay, why? Well, because suffering provides blessing. There's a lesson and a theme that your pastor probably won't talk about on Sunday morning.

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You know what I mean? Invite your friends to come out and hear how suffering is actually a true blessing for you.

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But nevertheless, it's in there. If anyone believes that suffering makes no sense, especially when it is applied to people who are doing the right thing and then they receive suffering, it's almost like they receive suffering for it, they don't understand suffering.

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They don't understand the world they live in and they need to meet Jesus Christ, the perfect human being who did no wrong and suffered immensely for the whole world.

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Amen? So I guess I'm kind of showing my cards now. So maybe we can, you know, round the corner and this is the final lap here.

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You want to know what the point of Job is? It's this, okay? I feel like if I were at the pulpit,

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I would tell you to write this down. Here we go, right? Because suffering is unavoidable, to some degree, to some extent in this life, suffering is unavoidable.

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And because it is, the solution to suffering is not knowing the why. The solution is knowing

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God. As a matter of fact, and this is actually more fleshed out in the

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New Testament, but being like God will invite suffering upon you.

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And guess what? That's the whole ballgame right there, ladies and gentlemen. The whole point of being a

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Christian, the whole purpose for why God has not only created you, but called you, is so that you will conform to the image of the

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Son. That's Romans 8 29. And if you are called to conform to Christ's image and Christ himself suffered, guess what that means for you?

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And for me, we're gonna suffer. We're gonna suffer. It's only a matter of time. Maybe you're suffering right now.

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Maybe you've just come out of it. Maybe you're about to enter into it and you don't even know it. Maybe I am. But here's the point, friends.

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When it happens, not if, not if, if you're already thinking if, you're on the wrong foot.

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When it happens, we need to know how to do it well. That's the point of Job, it's training.

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It's an exercise mostly in what not to do, right? Like you look at the friends, right?

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You look at Job's wife. You look at parts of what Job says, you know? It's a training exercise.

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Here's how not to do that, right? Here's how not to think about that. We're supposed to read

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Job in chapters, what is it, like 29 to 30 or 31 or something like that?

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And we're supposed to learn not to do that. But instead, we are supposed to respond when suffering comes our way.

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We're supposed to respond like Job after he's learned his lesson, you know?

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And it sounds something like this. Take a look at, I think it's chapter 28.

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Look at this. Yeah, Job right here in verse 20, this is what he says.

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From where then does wisdom come? And where is the place of understanding? Look at this. God understands the way to it and he knows its place.

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And he said to man, here it is. Behold the fear of the Lord. That is wisdom. Have you heard that before somewhere in the

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Bible? Yep. Behold the fear of the Lord. That is wisdom.

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And to turn away from evil is understanding. Let me say it again. The solution is not knowing the why.

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And that makes almost everyone upset, you know? Which, by the way, have you had a friend like Bildad or Eliphaz?

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You know what I mean? And they've come to you and they've wanted to explain to you, well, you know, feel better because I'm going to explain to you why you're suffering right now.

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Has that ever worked? It's right here. The message is very clear.

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The solution to suffering is not knowing the why. The solution is knowing God. To know

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God is actually to become like God. But to become like God is to suffer.

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Is to become like the Christ who suffered for all. And it's right here, guys.

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It's in this formula. So I'm telling you something that hopefully you go away and you chew on for years and years to come, which

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I'm going to as well. In this formula, we have a way now of walking through suffering well.

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Not only that, we have a promise on the other side of our suffering, don't we, as Christians, right? Because now we have the

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New Testament. And guess what? The New Testament looks back to Job and provides further clarification. We know this, by the way, right?

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We know these things because these are delineated in other places in the Bible. It's just maybe we have not made those connections before.

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And I'm just trying to do that now. You know what I mean? Let me say it one more time for the back row, okay?

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The solution is not to shy away from suffering. The solution is to lean into suffering.

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And it's to learn how to walk through suffering well because there is a way to walk through suffering and still have rest, you know?

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By the way, the biblical idea of rest, if you want me to talk further about this, because what

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I'm now I'm doing is I'm touching on all of these points that deserve their own series of videos. You know what

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I mean? And I'm going very sweeping here. The biblical idea of rest is something that a lot of us just do not appreciate, nor do we understand, you know?

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For example, biblical rest is not the opposite of activity. It's the opposite of unrest.

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It's the opposite of chaos. The biblical concept of rest is that it's a result of order.

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No, wait a second. Isn't that the kind of God that we're dealing with? A God who brings order to the chaos?

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Do you remember how the creation account is written in Genesis 1? What does God do to the chaotic waters in the very beginning?

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He takes the chaos of creation and he commands it to be ordered. Look at how

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God actually talks about this very thing in Job chapter 38 here.

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This is what he says, verse 4. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding.

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Who determined its measurements? Surely you know. Or who stretched the line upon it? You know? God goes on to, if you read the rest of this chapter, he goes on to list a number of his accomplishments that all reinforce this notion that he brings order to the disorder.

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He's taking us right back to the creation account, and that's on purpose. It's precisely because this is the solution to suffering.

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The solution is not to avoid suffering. The solution is to find rest in the midst of suffering, and you can only find it in God, in seeking him out, in letting him walk with you during it.

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You know? That is the God that we serve.

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And by the way, do you see how answers to the why, they don't make you more like Jesus?

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You know what I mean? You see that? Submitting to the God who knows you better than you do, right?

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Submitting to his will, yes, even to his allowing bad things to happen to you, to go through suffering, that's going to make you more like Jesus.

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It will teach you lessons that you'll never learn in times of plenty, you know? How does that old poem go?

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I walked a mile with pleasure, she chattered all the way, but left me none the wiser for all she had to say.

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I walked a mile with sorrow, and never a word said she, but oh, the things

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I learned from her when sorrow walked with me. Right? That's an old

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Browning poem. Anyway, that's the point of the book of Job.

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The solution is not knowing the why, the solution is knowing God. To know

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God is to become like God, and to become like God is to suffer. That's why

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Jesus invites all of us. Look at this. Come to me, verse 28, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you what?

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I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find, there it is again, rest for your souls.

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For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. This same Jesus went to his death, and he knew it, and that's the promise that he gives all of us.

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It's this rest that provides us the way through suffering. We're not supposed to shy away from it, ladies and gentlemen.

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We're supposed to lean into it. If there's anything that you remember about this video, that could be it.

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You know? The premise is completely wrong from the very start, from the very word start. We're not supposed to avoid suffering, and anybody who begins with that presupposition is already off on the wrong foot, already hates the book of Job, and probably much of the

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Bible. Okay? We need to rely on God. We need to let him give us the strength to endure suffering.

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You know? And that's what the Satan, that's what he suggested the best of human beings could not do when he was talking about Job.

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Right? That's why he says what he says. He believes that somebody like Job would never be able to figure out what suffering really is about and the opportunities that it provides.

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He thinks, the Satan thinks, that human beings can't understand the whole point of the book of Job.

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And, you know, it's crazy. A lot of people don't. The Satan actually thought the best that a human being could do is just look at this situation with their physical eyes, and then when things come crashing around, they turn around and curse

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God, and then they die. Right? God says, Job won't do that. My righteous servant won't do that.

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And he puts Job in a position. He even speaks to Job to ensure that he is in the very position to be able to test and see what

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Job will do. And guess what? Job doesn't do it. By the way, the best, the best

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New Testament response to Job is found right here in James 5. Look at this. Verse 10.

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As an example of suffering and patience, brothers, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the

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Lord. Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast, who had faith. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the

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Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful. In other words, it appears that the

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Lord's purpose for Job's suffering was to refute the Satan's slander and to vindicate

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Job's steadfastness, his faith. Job doesn't know any of this stuff. Job never knows the purpose for his suffering.

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And guess what? We will never know either. Not really. You know? Job wasn't told, and we won't be told.

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And that's precisely the point. Can you trust God anyway? Because that's the only way you're going to be able to make through it.

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I suspect that the reason why many people don't like the story of Job is because they believe that they are owed a good reason for their suffering.

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You know? Which is interesting, because if you believe that there is no God, you have to say that there is no good reason for suffering as well.

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And actually, there is no good reason for good times either, if you think about it. There's no rhyme or reason for any of it, which is actually much worse.

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You know? But if logically, you know, if it makes sense that the answer to suffering is that it serves the purpose of building your character, what's wrong with that answer?

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You know? Well, Nate, because it seems too cruel or unnecessary. Okay. If this world is a glimmer of the true one, right?

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Hebrews 13. And the point of our life is to make our souls fit for heaven, right? That's...

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Who said that? Cardinal Newman said that. And that fitness is born out of trial and the training and the suffering

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Why not lean into it? Why not embrace suffering? As many Christians have, who truly understood what

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Job was all about. This answer is not going to satisfy everyone. You know?

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But I trust that for those who seek to walk with God, and I pray that this gives you rest for your weary souls.

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All right. That's all the time I have for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for tuning in live. I really do appreciate you.

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But hey, you know what? Now it's your turn. I really do want to see what you think. What is the purpose of the book of Job? Okay?

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You've read it. You've studied it. What is the message? Let me know in the comments below. As always, if you made it this far, you've got to come over and check out the

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Patreon community right now. There's a lot of features for you. If you like the Bible study aspect of this, I'm doing one in the

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Gospel of Matthew, and a lot of people are getting blessed. We can run monthly trainings and live streams. You can meet up with me one -on -one.

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All of that is in the link for the Patreon below. Hey, also, if you're interested at all in learning the original biblical languages, you've got to go check out the

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Biblingo app. They're offering a free week right now. So just go check it out. The code is wisedisciple10 at checkout.

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Click the link there as well. Hey, I'm going to return soon with more videos. But in the meantime, I'll say, bye for now.