Evidence for the Resurrection

This you said statements either true or false.

I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply.

Not to that.

It's not only two fab statements would be either true or false.

So is it true that i'm talking to you?

Is it true?

That is true statement.

I'm talking to you.

Is that true?

Yes.

Okay, is it true that babies exist?

Um.

Well, I mean how long babies exist on the skeptical babies exist.

Babies exist.

Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

I would I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you want to be very strict about it I would be skeptical about.

Okay, we're done talking.

There's no sense in having a conversation with someone who who just can't even recognize the statement that babies

exist.

Well, you know, give me a break.

We're never going to get anywhere.

He's not, uh, he's not having a normal conversation.

We're just going to move on to something else.

It's ridiculous.

He's not interested in a conversation.

No, he's just interested in arguing.

I am in it.

That's all I just know.

You know, I just trapped him find out.

I already decided as soon as I said, you know.

How's he gonna answer this when babies exist.

If he gives me a hard time we're just moving on, you know, all right.

John you had some.

I was gonna say he doesn't want to have a conversation.

You asked him a very simple question.

Do babies exist.

And he has to.

Dodge that.

Well, I mean if you want.

If you want to be very strict.

That's true, okay, it's simple.

It's simple, you know, it's a simple freaking question, come on

John's a little.

I'm just gonna lose it.

I'm just I'm a lot tired of this.

I'm tired of these games.

Oh He's saying that telling you man, I just.

All right, so there's no babies.

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity

ministries.

All right, we are live apologetics live glad to have you with us and I can't help but to enjoy That

clip when I hear it doesn't matter what kind of bad mood I am John losing it always puts me in a good mood.

There's no babies.

Oh, that's always so good so welcome to apologetics live.

We're here this is before um good friday, so,

uh, we're gonna be um, talking about an important thing coming up with good friday and that

is The resurrection evidence for the resurrection.

Let me bring in our Guest apologist today

Alex welcome to apologetics live.

This is your first time on apologetics live.

Yes. Yes it is.

Thank you for having me.

I'm glad to be here.

That that clip was pretty funny by the way.

Oh, it was great that was uh, it was funny listening to that live like where we.

And actually the best part I I was gonna play the clip after that.

Maybe i'll do it next week after that's an eight I have like an eight minute clip of a guy who right right after that

conversation a guy denies That that babies exist.

And then there's a guy who wants to argue he asks he asks matt a question.

He says can you prove?

That god exists and and matt's like what kind of proof?

And he basically will just prove it and and matt goes the resurrection.

And he's like that's not scientific.

And matt goes you didn't ask for scientific proof and then we go explain that science can't be

used to prove god because science is the study of the natural world and God is immaterial.

So you you can't use it and and he just it was funny because he just commented that the guy

saying babies don't exist was a foolish and He just went on to make himself look bad.

It was like, oh.

It was classic.

Uh.

We'll end the show i'll play that longer clip for folks to enjoy at the end.

So alex welcome on tell us some folks will will not know much about you um, you and i've recently met because

there's a a group of of urban evangelists that we're part of and we're just trying to see how we can

evangelize and and reach out and do projects and we've been trying to figure out how to do it in in

This new age we're in where we're all stuck at home.

So, um, so I had said hey you want to come on and you jumped on it and said yeah, let's do it.

So why don't you tell folks about yourself and your the ministry you got?

Yeah, uh, once again glad to be here and and You know now is the best time to to jump on programs like

this whether you're a guest or watching because we got time um, although this has been an extremely

busy week for me, so Um, i'm actually getting my master's right now in apologetics.

Um.

So I got a couple papers do a couple tests.

Um, but prior to that I trained a lot with cross -examine instructors academy with frank turrick jim warner

wallace Greg, coco, sean mcdowell those guys Um did some training with rzim.

And about a couple years ago I started a conference called the proof for the truth

conference here in chicago.

Uh, this is our third year doing it this year.

It was supposed to be at the end of this month but obviously With everything that got pushed to the end of august.

So if you go to my website, you can find information for that there.

Um, but yeah, i've i've been in I was in youth ministry prior to that and I was also a pastor of education

At a relatively large church here in the city.

Until uh another pastor and I planted a house church a little over a year ago so

a lot of my my heart and my passion now is Making sure our young people understand and I say youth

and young adults that there is evidence um for why we believe what we believe because the trend we see of

Young people walking away when they get to or through college Is often because they haven't been Given the

proper tools to stand up to what a professor may say.

Yeah, so and let me uh, the website i'll let me put that back up the website for your conference.

It's because you said go to the website but for folks who who are listening They can't see it on the bottom of the screen.

So it is www .proofforthetruth

.org.

So proof for the truth .org is the website to uh for that conference, which is

happening into the month.

Oh, wait now cindy.

You got you guys online like everyone else.

We're we're actually in the midst.

Uh, I I reached out to a friend of mine.

Justin peters and I said hey How you because he had he called me uh, like last week and said so How's your

how's your speaking schedule going?

And I said All cleared up.

We're like sitting around he's like, you know, we're just working on on, you know, some some well i'm doing a lot with my

local church now um getting very active teaching midweek bible study doing uh the preaching

and um,.

And then we're we do a friday night movie night.

I'm leading the discussion.

So i've been real busy there.

But justin has been working on some videos and talks.

I said why don't we try to do like an online?

One day seminar like we've done before and we travel around and do and so we're actually working on it.

So i'm glad you said that I forgot about this.

Um, So yeah, I lost several speaking engagements in the last month obviously for the situation that we're in

but I am launching a um, a one not a one day, but my first webinar.

At the beginning of may it's and if you go to.

This is a word.

I think I should coin this word bibliology Dot eventbrite

.com.

Uh, you can you can register there.

So I am trying to do some more online stuff and it's going to be dealing with hermeneutics and apologetics.

Kind of like a crash course beginning course.

Yeah, so where do you.

You said you're doing your master's in apologetics?

We're at.

At liberty university, okay.

So Yeah, you mentioned and you're working with some guys that I know I uh, greg cokel.

Uh, jim wallace good guy.

The the conservative jim wallace, by the way, there was Christian jim wall.

He actually yeah, he couldn't go with using his his For his books because it's like wait, everyone's gonna get

confused with the other jim not Good theologian.

So yeah.

So let's talk.

I mean we're coming up on resurrection sunday um, this is something that uh, I think

we see with um We see with a lot of folks, um the

fact that You know every year people come around they

could you have good friday you have resurrection sunday they Celebrate with family some people know the meaning behind

it.

Yes, but You know easter eggs, right?

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah.

No, I um See and I never followed that part either because you know, I grew up jewish so I didn't

understand like I didn't get all that stuff.

Um, I don't either and so.

But the thing is is that I one of the things you see at this time of year Is history

channel will always almost always Have some shows some programs on

the resurrection Completely liberal.

Nothing historical and it's just basically trying to argue the resurrection didn't happen.

It's a fairy tale so Let's discuss this Actual evidence that we

can look to For the resurrection what say you?

Absolutely, and that's what's actually amazing about it.

Um, and and as a quick sidebar for everyone watching most of those shows.

Have already been debunked years before they air so um.

Just a side note, but anyway.

The the evidence for the resurrection when you really look at it is so great

that I almost feel like when we get when we get to heaven is gonna god's gonna be like why why was there even any doubt?

Um as far as something that occurred in in in ancient history.

There is more evidence for this event.

Than for most other things that we take for granted.

Um things pertaining to caesar socrates alexander the great.

No one questions those things.

You never been in a history class in school and said I don't believe that about alexander.

The reason is.

It's not a it's not a head issue.

It's a heart issue in my opinion.

And so.

The question is if it is true.

What does that require of me that requires of me to submit to what is in the book?

And that's the part where people essentially don't want to budge so.

If people are more honest about that, then we can have a better conversation.

But if they want to talk strictly about the evidence, let's let's get into some of that.

Um, number one.

There can't be a resurrection if there's no crucifixion um.

Even if we go back further if jesus didn't exist now at this point in time.

Given the evidence we have anybody who says jesus didn't exist.

Like I would cut the conversation off because the even atheists acknowledge that let's you know, it was very

interesting listening to.

Bart ehrman.

If you know who bart ehrman is i'm sure if you guys you have it.

I met him last year.

You know that name.

Oh, yeah, I met him last year.

I'm actually reading one of his books right now.

Oh you poor thing i've read several of his books and.

Well, i'm dissecting Books than me and that's why you've lost your hair.

I understand i've i've looked a lot of it, but not all of it there.

No, but bart ehrman was was in a discussion with a an atheist who

basically Just stated that there's no evidence that jesus ever existed and even bart ehrman was like

stop.

Stop, okay.

We could disagree that you know, we don't think he was god, but you can't say he never existed.

So right bart ehrman Bowser is like no you can't make that claim.

Yeah.

And i'm glad you brought that up because and actually I was interviewing, uh, jim wallace on my channel a couple days ago

and um.

And I met bart ehrman at a conference last year.

I talked with him.

He's a really nice guy actually.

And he will say and actually if you read his books even with all the books he's written all the best sellers.

He will tell you.

Those the the discrepancies that he that he likes to talk about those aren't the reason that he's not a christian anymore.

He said the reason is because he can't reconcile the problem of suffering or evil.

Which is a totally separate thing and it's actually a much more.

Um much simpler a problem to reconcile from a philosophical standpoint but.

To the lay person when when you read those books, it seems like an open and shut case, especially since he

says the consensus is.

It's by no means the consensus actually have so this this one book here.

I don't know if you can see how thick that is.

It's called the resurrection of jesus by mike. Lacona.

Who's a great historian?

Um, This and there's more but that that one book is filled

with evidence.

Um, you know.

Just to get to something you said there with with bart.

I mean it is interesting because.

You know the issue he has.

Like you said it's it's the easier one to reconcile.

Yep.

Um, but then here's the here's a little trick that for anyone that wants to read bart ehrman.

There's a little trick you just have to you have to pick up on.

And if you read enough of them, you pick this up.

Anytime he supports his his arguments.

It's usually right.

But what you see him do is this when he writes his scholarly work.

He he does do some good stuff.

But when he writes to the masses, this is what he does well the consensus says.

Wait a minute.

Hold it.

That's actually a logical fallacy.

It's you know, you know to appeal to authorities or appeal to popularity.

Um, and and he does that a lot and you'll notice in his reading.

It's like he'll he'll state something that's true.

Like he'll say that the the gospel, you know after the gospels were written.

And the new testament people were in a rush because of the gospel message.

They were in a rush to get this out there get it, you know in people's hands.

So they they were quick to make copies and they made mistakes.

That's actually true.

Agree with that and he supports that but then he makes a claim and because of that we we can't know what the original said.

Um, wait, no, or actually he'll say we can't know what the original means.

Right big difference.

I'll agree.

We can't have the original documents.

This is what it actually was.

But when it comes to meaning I remember um taking a course with uh, dan wallace and I asked him I said, you know.

Everyone uses the one one percent of the textural variances that we have.

We cannot get back to the original and and it's easy to get back to original most of them spelling mistakes things like that

there's.

But the concerning areas are ones where the meaning of the text changes and we can't get back to the original.

And I said everyone says that's the one percent.

But they're also saying that based off of older numbers of the manuscripts that we have we we have you know.

Everyone says we have six thousand.

Well, we actually haven't like eight to nine thousand now.

And he said more manuscripts.

We got that number's gone down.

He said we use the one percent as a conservative number, but it's actually closer to one fifth of one

percent.

Yeah, like okay.

So 99 .98 accurate.

Um, i'll put that number up to cnn any day of the week.

Yeah.

And it's amazing when they found the dead sea scrolls in 1947, um.

They they had a full copy or in in that that that um.

Discovery of those 600 documents there was a full copy of isaiah.

Prior to that I believe we only had three copies of isaiah and that was what was in the bible.

And and so now is the chance hey, this has been buried for thousands of years.

Did we do we have it right and they compared it and it was accurate to a degree of 99 .5.

Which is which is insane because we're now we're talking old testament.

So.

They had there was uh, seven variations when you look at isaiah 53 and three of them were very Variations in the hebrew word

for light.

A couple were contractions nothing, nothing doctrinal to change theologically change or even

Uh based on the meaning nothing changed or and so that.

If I don't know if you've ever seen in his book misquoting jesus the paperback edition the first

edition of the paperback.

He had an addendum and he took it out in the second printing.

And the reason he took it out is because guys were using it.

He stated there's not a single Christian doctrine that is affected by

any of these manuscript variances and it was like boom I mean, you know.

There you go barterman.

There you go.

Yeah, and and the isaiah scroll that you refer to um, the the importance of that is

we we had we had several copies of isaiah, but This was a thousand years

earlier than the earliest copy that we had.

Right, that's A big deal because now people say that the you know, given enough time there'll be all these

edits and changes.

Now we can go back a thousand years and nothing was changed.

Oops, right.

And and that's the thing, um so like I said anybody who says jesus didn't exist

stop just.

We can agree to disagree on some things just don't make that objection.

So let's move on.

Uh to the crucifixion now.

Ironically, maybe not.

So this is actually not up for debate either.

Um ger ludeman who's an atheist scholar said that jesus's death Is

as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable.

This is an atheist scholar saying this and actually barterman affirms this as well.

Um john dominant crossan of the jesus seminar if anybody remembers that he said very similar things jesus's death by

crucifixion under pontius pilate.

Uh is as sure as anything historical can ever be and this is somebody who is

basically dismantled the bible and Kind of picks and chooses what we can take as

authoritative or actual and not.

Um.

So the crucifixion is actually not.

By scholars at least it's really not debatable um.

But you you mentioned something at the beginning and as I thought about this, um prior to our talk today.

You know jesus made what we would call an easily falsifiable claim

so embedded in every objection to the crucifixion of the resurrection in

some way is.

Uh, they made it up or it's fake or there's some kind of conspiracy.

It's just not real somewhere in the in the comment.

That's embedded in there now if jesus Wanted to he could

have said I will die and I will rise in a spiritual form in three days.

And in three days his disciples will say I feel his presence and I think I saw him.

And there'll be no one to really say yes or no, there would be no way to prove that either one way or the other.

But jesus said i'm going to die.

And then i'm going to rise bodily.

In other words if I don't do this, then I didn't then it didn't happen.

If you don't see me walking around again in a bodily human form again.

Then that's not the resurrection i'm talking about.

So now we have some some tangible thing to really look for.

So the easiest way to squash christianity from the outset.

All they had to do is go to the tomb.

Get his still dead body and drag it through the streets and say he's still dead.

The only reason that that was not a possibility is the body was not in the tomb.

So now we move forward.

Now they now skeptics and others have to explain.

Okay.

We know he didn't resurrect because that can't be right.

What are the reasons?

That the tomb is empty so.

For for a skeptic and for anyone listening that you want to be able to kind of Explain this to your friends or

relatives or anyone who's not.

Um, not saved or doesn't know.

Um, How to explain this fact this historical fact.

You you it's okay.

I was with uh, ben's fatality of rzim and he said Disagreement is okay, but

disagreement without alternative is empty so When somebody says, uh,

you know andrew, I don't believe in god.

Okay.

Well, what do you believe because we're here?

There's a universe you got you still have to explain what is um.

If you say I don't believe in the resurrection, okay.

Well, you still have to come up with some explanation a better explanation for why christianity exists at all

because to to make the the case that.

These group of jewish men made this up for some kind of benefit it falls Flat they

no one makes up a lie to have a worse life.

Um, I was with jim born.

Yeah, go finish finish.

No, no.

Well, this is real.

So jim waterwise.

He's a he's a detective in real life for those that don't know and he says there he says every single murder.

He's ever investigated and he's been on dateline and all these shows.

There's three motives sex money or power.

Same thing for conspiracies.

Those are the motives like he you just got to figure out which one or what combination.

So the disciple you're going to tell me the disciples made up this lie.

Knowing it was lying knowing he's still dead in order To lose their power to lose their family and

friends and to get tortured martyred and chased from town to town and and for no money.

That makes absolutely no sense and it's never been done in the history of the world.

Why would that happen now?

So now I gotta now you brought us on i'm really curious.

You said that in in real life jim is a detective so what's he in a

fake life or fairy tale.

I mean because well give him a call and let him know, you know that you don't you know.

You think he's a christian fairy tale or something?

Like i'm.

But yeah, he is 20 years as a detective, uh cold case for

much of it.

But yeah.

The the thing is and I like and they put this up.

This is what uh, james walkins from five souls ministry says the five soul podcast.

The resurrection of christ is a great defense of his deity against cults like the jehovah witnesses as

well.

Um.

That's very true.

I mean you always go to the resurrection.

So when I in alex, you I don't know that you know my background and testimony, but when I came to christ

uh, it was More of a logical thing.

It was just someone's explaining.

He was going through prophecies.

I was running the numbers.

It was mathematically impossible.

Statistical impossibility is 10 to the 48th power.

And so we start adding these prophecies up.

I ended up realizing it is statistically impossible.

For these things to happen by chance.

I mean there's some things going.

Okay.

This is self -fulfilling.

There's other things that i'm saying.

This is coincidence and i'm and self -fulfilling i'm ignoring coincidence i'm looking at

I'm running the calculations and so I ended up stopping chuck and I said chuck it's mathematically impossible.

For the new testament not to have been written by god.

What does it teach?

So I don't exactly do things in the right order.

I actually Before I believed in christ.

Now at this time i'm still being jewish.

I'm still thinking jesus christ is hitler's god.

I'm not looking for christ.

I was raised so.

But it was really interesting because as he's going through You know, he's saying that we're all sinners.

That was not difficult for me.

I you know, I almost burned my house down twice, you know.

Uh, once we put it out with a fire extinguisher the second time the fire department.

So i've got better at my sin as I got older but.

But You know being a poor wasn't hard for me to understand but needing a savior was some I thought my judaism was

gonna save me and so I didn't Need for a savior and chuck is going through

and we get to the resurrection.

And as we're discussing the resurrection I had never read.

At that point in time never read josh mcdowell's more than carpenter or evidence of verdict but every

one of the Views the false views of the resurrection the ways to explain it away.

I had every one of them whether it was the wrong tomb.

And so I want to go through each one of these with you so folks I'm gonna let you answer them.

But this you know, i'm not going to give the answers.

I'll let you answer but the people they got the wrong tune.

He didn't really die.

Disciples stole the body.

I mean all the the general ones.

I still have one that's original with me.

I haven't heard anyone else argue this one.

It's it's kind of a play on the disciples stealing the body because he you know.

He said that the disciples wouldn't have gotten past the guard so this was my very last argument before I ended up bowing my

knee to christ because I I couldn't explain away the resurrection if he rose from the dead.

He is god.

He's got him accountable to him and therefore I need to get right with him.

So Before you know doing that here was the last pitch that I said, I said, okay chuck.

Maybe the disciples they dug a hole underneath the tomb came up through the center took his body and took it out.

And chuck looked at me and goes in three days.

Andrew.

They didn't have heavy back then and i'm like, oh Oh and i'm like i put my hands on my in my face

and I on my knees and i'm just he's like What's wrong?

I'm like, I just looked at him.

I said If jesus christ rose from the dead then he's god.

Yeah, yeah, that's what i've been trying to tell you for three hours.

You know, I said i'm accountable to him and he's right I said

but I'm not in a good state.

So here I just on on the steps of a dairy queen in in san francisco.

I bow my knee to christ in 84 so I was only one years old.

Ha ha.

Long time ago, were you even born in 84?

Okay, I was years old.

I was I was not.

I was not far from one years old at that time.

Thanks.

Vincent in the private chat is saying that i'm bad at math.

I was 16 at the time.

So let's go through those those false views.

I mean i'll actually i'll just let you take whichever order you want, but let's deal with all the views and then give

for them.

Yeah, so here's the here's something that people.

Um.

Need to to take seriously because I I think the way you came to it is is not the wrong way I think um.

You can come from an evidential point and then come the more theological point later.

Everyone's not going to get saved coming to church on sunday morning and hearing a nice sermon.

That's just that's great but that's not how everyone comes so.

We have to have criteria and and this is not just criteria for examining the bible the resurrection this is

how all historians engage in historical study.

Um, there has to be measured measurement sticks, so we look at explanatory scope based on the

um, the evidence.

Do we have to have other theories to include in our current theory that we're investigating.

Explanatory power.

Does.

Does this make the evidence more probable whatever theory we're talking about?

Less contrived or less ad hoc.

Um a philosophical term that means I don't have to invent like 16 new theories to make this one thing work.

Like you're digging under the tomb theory.

Um, and is it plausible that one's the probably the most easy or obvious one?

Give me some credit with that the the digging.

Original creative.

I'll give you that.

That was.

I hadn't heard that one.

I don't think anyone's heard that one.

That's the thing.

Like I've i've i've i've heard all these arguments I think that's still original with me.

I'm, you know Josh mcdowell into his his next book.

Because I should actually mention that to sean.

I should contact sean say hey when your dad writes his next book.

Here's one that he hasn't.

It'll be just for you it'll be the chapter for andrew.

So, okay, uh displaced body hypothesis um I think it

was so joseph, uh clauster, I believe in 1922 Said that joseph arimathea

placed jesus's body in his tomb and that's well attested.

I think also we need to make a side point every piece in scripture.

Although I don't know that the gospel writers always knew and probably they didn't which is actually a sign of it being true

that What they were writing was so important I think they were simply recording facts.

So Joseph arimathea asked for the body they buried in his tomb, but it actually is really significant for

us.

Because he was a wealthy person.

He was well known that was that would have been a tomb that everybody would have known.

So now we have really good evidence that everybody knew the burial location.

It wasn't some random field.

So then we can't say maybe the body was stolen.

Maybe they did dig under.

But because of whose tomb it was.

It's it's really clear that we know where to go.

Look.

So that's important.

Um, but the the criminal's graveyard was some hundred yards away or so.

And so the displaced body theory says they put him in in joseph arimathea's tomb.

And he's digging a hole 50 feet.

Oh, yeah, I put I put People that people post in here.

So don't be distracted by it.

But yeah, no, no, I was looking.

Yeah, john.

John, uh wilkinson said uh roman soldiers seeing disciples digging a hole 50 feet away from the

grave.

What you doing?

He's trying to say my my my you know.

My digging.

Doesn't work.

I I don't know why john would.

I think it's a great argument just really.

It's not it's not bad.

Creative um, so the the argument the displaced body says they put him in in

joseph's tomb arimathea tomb.

Sealed it but then in the middle of the night.

They took him out of that tomb to put him in a different graveyard because he was a criminal.

So they put him in the criminal graveyard.

But this tomb was guarded.

Um.

And it doesn't like this doesn't explain so remember explanatory scope explanatory power all these different things.

Even if this was true, this would not explain why christianity exists.

So it would explain why the the tomb is empty.

But that's not the only thing you have to explain you have to explain why.

These suddenly these frightened disciples suddenly all of a sudden had this this vigor to go evangelize and be

willing to die.

For this this jesus that they had come to know who they saw die.

And they're telling people he's alive.

And even if it's a lie, you keep that up for a second.

But once you start feeling the pressure and the torture you're like, okay I was I was kidding, you know, you don't you don't continue to stick to

it.

So This lacks explanatory power.

It doesn't explain the origin of christianity.

It lacks explanatory scope.

Uh, it doesn't explain the appearances.

So we haven't even got into that there's at least um.

There's several appearances where jesus appeared and paul lets us know that he appeared to 500 people at one time.

And that's going to be really important when we look at our next.

A couple theories and it's not plausible.

So one one thing that we could say, right?

With answering this is all they had to do.

Was produce the body, correct?

Yeah, all they had to do.

All right.

So So.

The jews the jewish leaders who are not who.

Had christ put to death who were upset with.

You know the claims he was making.

Now there's claims.

He wrote he rose from dead.

They knew he made the claims because they wanted the guards to be.

Because they said this is what he claimed.

We don't want anyone we don't want his disciples to steal the body and then say he rose from the dead so they had it

guarded.

Right if that theory was the case and he was taken from joseph's tomb and put

into the criminals.

Couldn't they just say to the guards who and remember they paid the guards.

They lie, they told the guards to say the body was stolen which could cost the guards their life.

Wouldn't the jews just instead say who took it and where'd they go with it?

Oh, they're okay.

We'll grab the body.

Wouldn't that be a whole problem?

It would it'd be it's it's the simplest solution, but that's the point occam's razor lets us know that.

When you're looking for the answer, it's usually the simplest solution and if if you have to

go steps above that.

And well, what if this and if this happened that could make this happen once you start doing all these combinations of of random

um supposed theories.

Yeah, that's when we get kind of in the weeds so you're right simple thing go get the body and show it to

everybody case closed um.

Also another translation.

I don't know if it's in matthew or luke, but one of them says that the tomb was sealed from the outside.

That's a whole nother thing that we haven't even Addressed so these disciples either were digging under

the grave the tomb like you said or they had chisels and they were working out the seal like.

You know, it gets a little far -fetched at this point.

Yeah.

So let's explain that for folks who may not be so for me.

I mean, they may have read the scriptures that sealed.

But just picture the scene.

You have a tomb.

It's it is built with in in the rock face that's typically where the the.

You know the tombs would be of the more wealthy folks um.

You have a two thousand pound stone that what they would do is they put someone in they they would

build these tombs with a stone.

That's got that's wedged in.

And then they put the body in and they pull the wedge out and two thousand pounds rolls and covers it.

And you got to roll that up if they're going to put another body in there.

So you have this big stone.

And they put a big clay x they basically stretch out and so that's that's over it.

So if you move that rock.

You know because the seal was broken and then you have guards That are guarding it.

Right it's the roman guards which becomes interesting right.

Because.

Yeah, jewish.

It was a jewish holiday and the jewish guards couldn't Guard it.

Um yep, it it just and and.

Just so we're clear the roman guards did not guard every tomb or every burial.

This was a unique Situation right?

So it's not like there's guards at every tomb.

They would know there's guards at this tomb for this man who's in this tomb um because something was

special about this guy, so.

Yeah, that that one doesn't seem to pan out.

Let's go to.

Um, what about that?

Jesus really didn't die.

He okay.

That's exactly what I was going to moon theory.

He just he.

He lost a lot of blood.

It was a it was a hard day.

He just passed out and So Prepared him for burial and he

just took some, you know, took the burial cloths off and walked himself out.

Is that possible?

So the funny thing about that whenever I hear it is that would be a miracle too to me because

He was he was before he went to the cross.

He was beaten half to death uh the the the type of punishment he endured.

Probably would have killed most of us just by that forget the cross so.

The swoon theory or the apparent death hypothesis, you know, this is very popular with with

with muslims.

Um, in fact in the quran I think it's surah 4 157.

It says Uh, surely he did not die on the cross.

Um, they believe.

Most of them believe that judas took his place on the cross now.

Chronologically.

Yeah, let me just clarify for folks that mean.

It's that.

Because it's even worse than that.

It is the the idea.

It was not just that judas took the place and it's not necessarily judas uh the name judas.

Not in the quran, but in hadiths and so not all muslims hold to the fact that was judas.

But they do believe that god provided a look -alike.

And so.

Just with that think about this in islam.

This is the thing I bring out to muslims all the time.

So your god.

Is a god who deceives his own followers?

To believe.

Right.

Because.

Basically, he convinced his own followers.

It was jesus on the cross.

So he took whether it be judas or someone else and made it look like jesus.

So everyone thought it was jesus.

And it was his followers.

That he deceived not the world.

Yeah, so when it says in the quran that that allah is the great deceiver.

And and they'll try to argue that that word in arabic can mean planner i've been told by

arabic speakers that it means deceiver um.

But the you know, I go we'll see here's the evidence.

He put a look -alike on the cross done.

Yeah.

Yeah, the most the most famous criminal in in that time period in that region and everybody

didn't recognize him.

You know john peter they did they're like, oh that looks like jesus um.

And they yeah it so.

That doesn't seem to pan out.

But here's the thing.

What?

What people are like I said Once again, all these theories are really trying to find backdoor ways to explain the empty tomb.

But by doing that you're affirming that the tomb was empty so We are agreeing on

that.

But now you have a burden of proof to prove why the tomb is empty.

If you don't like my burden of proof and actually gary havermas um.

Probably the the world's leading resurrection expert scholar.

Um, I took a class with him last year, too.

And he he did research and he found that 75 of scholars.

Uh in in europe and america and not necessarily christian actually christian atheists.

They affirm the empty tomb.

75 of scholars affirm the empty tomb.

So this is actually not even really really up for debate at this point in time either.

But let's say we get back to the swoon theory he was he was half dead he went in the tomb.

He fixed himself up and came back out and then he was like, hey i'm alive.

But there is no testimony whether in the bible or in external sources.

Of a of a half dead beaten bloody jesus walking through town saying he resurrected because what

what people have to realize is that if the swoon theory is true, it's not just that.

He's all better suddenly it's that he still has the beating from being scourged.

He'd still be half dead.

There was no hospitals.

There was no um, you know modern medicine to be able to recuperate him.

So He didn't know we have to sing either.

About what he didn't he didn't know about social distancing either, right?

Right I think i'm watching andrew's face to the backstage.

I think he just lost it on that statement.

So again, but with with the swoon theory um.

We have the same question to ask right?

Why couldn't they just find him?

Right now the question for folks who don't know me, you know, this is the theory that's

held by um by some that would believe in the gospel of mary

magdalene, which was the Work that was that the book da vinci code was based off of.

The idea that jesus actually after his resurrection.

He and mary magdalene got married.

They went out to france.

They had children and those children are the line of the emperors of france.

Which gave them a greater, you know.

Standing in the world as emperors because they were of the line of of jesus.

The irony that I find with that is, you know I don't find many liberal scholars that question the gospel of

mary magdalene.

And the only copy we have of that gospel is in french and missing.

Than we actually have so we all we have of it is a translation.

And because of the amount that's missing the the pages that are missing.

We know that there's more missing than we actually have of it um and supposedly it's based off

a the fact that there's supposedly a deed.

That states that mary and jesus had a a house together.

There's one copy of that document supposedly.

Uh, there there was an a guy who wrote a book on all this and he actually saw it.

But the only way he was able to see this he didn't know the language it was written in.

He wasn't allowed to take a photo of it.

He wasn't allowed to take or to write down what what it said and he wasn't allowed to take anyone that knew the language.

But but the guy said it's true because he saw it.

Hey, yeah, hey you ever hear joseph smith.

He saw.

Yeah.

It it's there's there's a lot of um you know lunacy out here and

It's what's most shocking is People's willingness to believe that

or things like that.

Rather than let's test and see like what you have to explain to me.

Someone would have to explain to me once again why the new testament writers

Would go out of their way to write all they wrote.

Luke says I did I I did a careful study eyewitness accounts I interviewed people why why go through

all that work to make up a lie to not to gain nothing.

You We can't overlook that fact.

Um, and there's there's two other factors with that, um that we'll get to in a second, but So this swoon

theory It's not plausible.

Um he would still be half dead and It would be very easy to spot I think

um.

It lasts.

What a lot of people don't know is that the the grave clothes he would have had on With the spices and all would

have weighed about 75 pounds.

So you got a guy who's been hanging by his hands and feet right several hours loss of

blood being scourged Being wrapped up and now he's gonna he's going to take

off 75 pounds of of cloth.

He's gonna untie himself he's gonna walk he's gonna lift a 2 000 pound stone.

And he's gonna walk past The guards without them recognizing or he like they're not going to wake up

from the stone being rolled away or anything like that.

He's just going to walk past them and walk around and you think That's not a miracle.

I love how you said it.

That's it.

Oh, so you accept miracles because It's I think

that's how I'd probably Next time I get that one on the street. I'm gonna be like, oh so you believe in miracles,

right?

Explain it that way.

I like that.

Thank you.

Yeah, no problem.

It's free.

So let's go with somebody.

Um.

What what are some of the uh false views?

Yeah, so the next one I I we hear and it used to be relatively popular and actually It was

popular.

With with brilliant men brilliant thinkers not just men men and women.

And this is what's so shocking about even I believe antony flew hell to this for a while.

Before he became a deist of some kind um the mass hallucination theory.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because it's so ludicrous, but i'll just say this clinical psychologist gary

sibsey and others.

And it just think common common sense, but he said this.

He has surveyed professional literature peer -reviewed written books Um talk to other psychologists

and is yet to find a single case of a mass or group hallucination.

Well, this does not happen.

Okay.

Let's first define this for folks who may you know folks who.

Explain why the the mass it have to be a mass hallucination.

Yeah.

So if I have a dream Or even a hallucination.

Oh now you think that occurred in here.

Huh.

Okay, I see how it is.

No, if I have that is an independent individual psychological event occurring in my brain

in my mind with my My neurons and synapses and all those different things.

That is an I that is that is not An event I can share I can tell someone about it.

But they cannot experience what i'm experiencing.

And the reason the theory came up at first is because.

And this does happen.

This is there is document evidence for this that if I if I really love someone and they die I might in a

week later Just have a vision of them because I miss them so much that the remorse or the grief is making me

visualize something.

That's not there.

That happens that that's documented.

But it's documented in an individual.

When paul writes and this early christian creed that is at the beginning of first corinthians 15 Bart ehrman

himself says we can date that creed Back to within a year or three years.

Of the resurrection of jesus or of the supposed resurrection.

So it's early Written it was it was a creed that was circulating long before paul wrote first

corinthians that letter so pretty much immediately people were saying

Jesus appeared to peter to james to cephas to 500 people at once and this is the sticking part

500 people.

Cannot have the same false hallucinogenic image.

That just cannot happen and I believe everybody pretty much knows that.

But because we're trying to find great weird ways to explain away the empty tomb people come up with these

theories and so There is no psychologist of any stripe that I believe

They would validate A group or mass hallucination and this is the thing.

Jesus appeared on several instances over the course of 50 days.

He didn't just resurrect say hi to his disciples and leave.

He walked around he ate they touched him.

He talked with people the emmaus wrote like there was there was interactions days and days and days of interactions

if if You are hallucinating.

If it happens it happens once.

It doesn't happen every day um with the same or different group of people seeing the same

hallucination that.

Doesn't happen.

Let's deal with a an argument being made by here by J harry here.

He says we don't have 500 accounts though.

We only have one person saying there were 500 accounts.

Okay, perfect.

So.

Uh two different ways we can deal with that number one when paul writes that um, and we'll look at paul in a second because that actually

adds validity to the statement, but.

This this christian creed that first corinthians 5 15.

Sorry.

3 through 8.

Uh, depending on how far you want to go.

He's quoting a creed that that he learned that he heard that was being reported.

Like I said, and even atheist scholars will say within one to three years.

This was already well into circulation.

But let's say that you you don't even agree with that paul saying.

If you read that that part of the first corinthians 15, he says the better part of who are still remaining.

So although some have fallen asleep.

Now when you're making up a lie.

You don't make up a lie where the people who can call you out on your lie are right next to you um.

So paul is writing this saying look i'm writing that this happened 500 people he appeared to at once

if you don't believe me go ask them.

He's allowing you to to self -check him.

Once again, if you're lying if you're making up a lie a conspiracy.

You don't put that kind of burden or proof on yourself the same way.

Jesus could have said I will rise spiritually and not bodily that's easy to

To say and not have to prove because I guess it could have happened.

Maybe it didn't.

I don't know.

There's no way to prove that but when you make a when you make severe or or strong claim.

That are easy to prove wrong by people who are currently in your surrounding.

You only do that if you're if you're positive that it is true.

And so paul says as i'm writing this.

Most of them are still over there.

You can go talk to them if you don't believe me.

That that speaks to some kind of validity well.

Let me give you some more evidence that you know different a different way of addressing this.

It's the fact that the enemies of christ and christianity don't dispute it.

Okay, yeah, you could you could look at a jewish historian like josephus.

He he says matter of fact Resurrection happened and that there were many who

observed christ afterwards.

Now what they try to do is then discredit josephus.

Oh, he was just working for the rome for rome and therefore he was doing it because of the roman catholic church.

That came about several hundred years later, right?

So josephus is is writing a history to help a church that doesn't exist yet.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Um, but he was dead 300 years before this started.

So.

But you could go and this is the thing I have found interesting go to the talmud.

The talmud was being written at the time of of christ and after christ and it is a response

Very much to the what was going on within christianity.

And so when you see how would they.

Do not say that that the resurrection didn't happen.

They they in the talmud talks about the resurrection.

But it just discredits Jesus and says he did it by by trickery.

That it was you know, so the reality is his enemies don't disagree with it

right.

On that note.

Um, there are 10 known at least 10 Uh non -christian

writers who write about jesus when within 100 150 years of his life.

Um during that same time there are nine um authors or writers.

Who write about tiberius caesar the emperor?

This is this is kind of weird because this is like more people writing about me than the president.

Jesus is a carpenter from nowhere who built nothing.

Something happened.

Um, so.

The fact that so many people are writing cetoneus marabar sapien tacitus plenty the younger

um, you know, we can get into some of the primary source documents of them, you know later if we want but

I made a list one time.

I don't say i'm i don't know if I have it here.

Hold on so here listen, this is.

This is a brief list of the facts that we would know if let's say we didn't have the new testament at all.

Here's what we would still know about jesus.

This is crazy.

That he lived during the time of tiberius.

He lived a virtuous life.

This is their words.

They call him a wonder worker.

They don't say miracle.

Um, he had a brother named james.

He was acclaimed to be the messiah.

He was crucified under pontius pilate.

He was crucified on the eve of the jewish passover.

Darkness and an earthquake occurred when he died.

His disciples believed he rose from the dead.

His disciples were willing to die for that belief.

Christianity spread all the way to rome.

And his disciples denied the roman gods and worshiped him as god.

This is what the non -christian writers write about christians and christianity and christ.

If we just if we had only their writings we would still know all those things.

And I think what you did there is J. Harry is trying to Argue.

Well, that's just anecdotal.

By the same logic every person claiming to be abducted by an alien must have been abducted.

I think the problem is that the guys say that they say they're abducted by aliens.

Um, don't say here's 500 people.

You can go verify it with.

Okay, they don't have other people that that verify that they were abducted by aliens.

It's just themselves doing it.

In fact, right.

You know.

We could I could claim j. Harry got abducted by aliens and that's why he believes what he believes.

By his argument, he can't say i'm wrong.

Right.

Oh.

Let's what what are some more of the I know.

So there's someone that wants to come in asking some questions of both of us.

I think.

But um, there's some of the other the other Arguments for us.

Or some of the the false views of the resurrection.

Yeah, so i'll do it one more and then we'll deal with the resurrection because I want to evaluate that too by the same

Standards scope power plausibility less ad hoc.

I don't I don't want to leave that out I want to see does that stand up to the test and I think I think that's fair.

Um, The conspiracy theory, um, and a lot of the things that are coming are versions of some sort of conspiracy.

But once again, you have to explain why would there be a reason for a conspiracy?

You got to imagine before jesus came these jewish men were good.

They thought They're good with god.

They they were looking for the messiah, but they weren't.

Needing to force the situation they had a good life.

They were good with god.

They were still his people.

Um.

You know, they were under roman rule, but they but it wasn't It wasn't worth leaving that to go

be martyred.

To make up a lie.

So the conspiracy theory is difficult.

For several reasons and i'm going to go back to jim.

Warner wallace and he cites in one of his books Uh five things that you need to make a successful conspiracy.

Um, and we can see if those things existed by the way, if you know about the conspiracy it didn't work

that's that's a simple way, but Number one, you need a small number of conspirators when I say small you need

like two or less.

Well, you can't have less two is is good.

And actually he said jim was saying If you have the two the best way to make it work is they conspire.

And then right after they get done one kills the other one.

And That's the way the reason he says this is and now remember for folks who may not know jim is a

cold case detective.

It's one of the things.

Actually his expertise is an identifying solid eyewitness testimony.

That's his that's what he is a world expert.

That's why he did cold cases because they're they're all based on I.

You know eyewitness testimony and being able to spot what's really eyewitness testimony and his his thing is he he'll say.

First thing he gets called up middle of night.

We got a homicide.

We got whatever.

That we got two witnesses.

The first thing he says is separate the witnesses.

Yes, because once they conspire, it's really interesting.

One of the things he says that is always true with a conspiracy.

Is their stories perfectly aligned?

Absolutely.

And that's the first complaint everyone has with the gospels that there's the the storylines are the same but some people

focus on here's 10 people that are healed and this one gives the same account only focuses on one that was healed.

Okay doesn't mean the other nine weren't there.

Right one author focused on one.

That's good.

Eyewitness testimony.

And the more people you have it is harder to keep a conspiracy.

I mean, that's Coronavirus thing.

Um, there was people saying this is a conspiracy.

I'm going how in the world.

China iran Russia the u .s.

The uk the france and they're all in on it, right, right.

Conspiracy doesn't work.

No.

It it doesn't work.

It's never worked um, the only the only conspiracies we've heard of Are the ones that almost

worked and the reason they almost worked is because they kept it for a while but Listen, I worked with you for a long time

youth and Man, I can get i'm not even a hardcore detective or anything like that.

I can get two kids.

And one of them is going to tell me the truth pretty quickly.

Um, and there's no torture.

I'm not doing anything to compel them.

So It and and when I say small number of conspirators like two maybe three.

But we have to imagine that in the upper room there's 120.

But let's let's forget about them for a second.

Let's just take the 11 remaining disciples.

That's too many.

There's that's too many to have a conspiracy, but that's just one factor number two.

You need great communication now there was no cell phones email, you know twitter there was none

of that stuff, obviously, so Communication depended upon if you're if you're with somebody

or you write a letter and they receive it.

But we know generally where the disciples went we definitely know where most of them died.

We know thomas died bringing the gospel to india.

Um, matthew and mark were in ethiopia and egypt.

Uh, paul makes it to rome luke is hanged in greece.

Um, they're all over.

So here's the point if If they're all in on this lie this conspiracy

Mark is not going to know if thomas gave up the lie when he's in interrogation.

And so independent of each other in separate locations thousands of miles apart they all kept this

same Belief until the very end.

No one recanted even under immense pressure and torture um.

That that leads to the belief that is true.

Number three.

You need a short time span a short time span.

Uh the earliest.

Before you get to a short time span again, these guys died without getting power

without getting prestige.

Without getting money, right?

I mean they didn't get anything out of this, right?

So if it was a conspiracy they you know, the the question always asked is

Why do it if you got nothing out of it?

Right.

What happens is when you see that someone's not getting anything out of it they turn.

To try to get something when that's their motivation is to get something out of it.

Yep.

You you know and they're not getting it they turn on it and that's why conspiracies break down.

Because someone's trying.

You know conspiracies happen because someone's trying to get something for themselves.

If they're not getting it through the conspiracy, they turn expose the conspiracy try to get it that way.

Yeah got 11 guys that got nothing out of it.

Yeah, and and.

And it grew and so you need a short time span um.

The earliest new testament letters by paul Late.

40s early 50s depending on how you date things but the bottom line is um.

It wasn't based on the writings initially so.

The times that if it was if it was fake or a conspiracy.

Before anything was ever written this thing would have died out um.

You need close friendships now.

They probably had close friendships, but they weren't physically close.

So Paul can't call or you know, matthew can't call mark on the phone and say

um.

They got something out they got dead.

Well, okay.

Says they got something out of it.

They got dead.

Yeah, um.

You know, let me let's do this.

I mean, yeah, we need a short period of time because the longer the conspiracies continues the harder it is to keep.

Jess is asking this and and I I think that um.

You may maybe she doesn't understand you can explain this but she says since they're most of them.

Most all of their deaths of the disciples recorded biblically.

I think she's asking uh.

Because you said there we know where they died.

But that's not recorded in the bible.

So how do we know that information.

And then.

Get into the the fence of the the actual resurrection that did occur.

Yeah, um, I forgot the name but that was a great question.

That's that's really important so i'm gonna direct because this is a a lot of

information To to go to that part.

Josephus gives us some other other external sources.

Give us some we know that.

Um church tradition holds based on what was written that peter was crucified upside down um, we

know, uh.

How paul died by being beheaded?

Um, but the person that you that you should look to sean mcdowell.

He did his dissertation On the death of the disciples and

Probably in the world.

He's probably done more research on that topic than anybody else.

I know.

And I actually this is funny at one of my training sessions.

I gave a presentation where he was my uh evaluator.

And that was my topic and this was before I knew that that was his area.

And I was going all I was going in for my you know killer evidence and

It was just funny to present to the one guy in the world who knows it better than anyone else.

Well, see i've toyed with the idea of going to to the um cross

-examined.

Uh, especially had it in new york.

My my toy my my ideas.

I i'm I am thinking of I maybe one year i'll do it.

But what I would do is I would I talk to frank and say listen.

There's one thing I want to do.

And it's after after all these guys get done being taught how to do apologetics.

Let me take them all to union square.

And uh, and you know vocab malone Vocab was at the training.

He came out and it's actually the only time vocab and I met each other in person because that's where I do open

air and.

You know, you you you could sit in front of sean mcdowell and give your arguments.

Yeah different when you're sitting in the streets in new york and you got like 20 people shouting out arguments at you.

And you're trying to control them.

So I that's I.

You know, my theory is I I want to say frank like okay.

You got your training you give your test, but let me take everyone on the street.

We'll get final exam.

Yeah, that's that that's a final exam.

All right um.

Yeah, so defend the resurrection.

Okay, and the last point on the on the conspiracy is you need low pressure and what we know.

This is in the bible that they did not have low pressure.

They were being pressured.

Just look at what paul was going through.

Um james's death is recorded in the bible.

Not the not james the brother of jesus, but the other james.

Um so.

Yeah, we have we have that evidence um.

Okay, so let's talk about the resurrection.

Let's let's examine um.

Okay, real quick since to stay on topic jess was asking where uh, where is the bible verse about paul being

beheaded?

And I don't think that that's in the scriptures.

No um it the book of acts ends.

Before he's he's dead uh the.

There's two reasons why we think he was beheaded.

We know he is in rome.

It's recorded that that he did die at execution.

Uh as a roman citizen, he could not have been crucified because that would have been illegal.

The way that they would have killed a roman citizen that would sentence the death was beheading.

And so I don't know if it actually states That we have history that states that he was beheaded.

I I know that we have Historical documents that say he was executed.

Yeah, but I don't know if it actually says beheading.

I think the beheading itself actually we we assume.

Yes.

And and the early um.

That was the assumption even with the early church fathers.

And so we're talking like 100 to 150 a .d.

Not too not not far removed.

Um.

So with the with the resurrection.

If we look at four kind of lanes um, we talked about the crucifixion that that's.

It's a pretty solid fact.

Let's talk about.

Uh, well we talked about the appearances i'm not going to rehash that the fact that we have record of appearances um.

Record of appearance to at least one time to 500 people and that's not even the most important of the appearances.

It's just it just helps to validate but let's talk about this and this is.

This is actually even probably more important than the fact that whether paul was beheaded or not.

And I hope most people know this but some might not know this.

Paul was not always paul.

Paul was saw so one lane of evidence and this is a lot of a lot of atheists say that this is the hardest one to

overcome the skeptics who turn to become leaders of the church because

When paul was saw he was he was a pharisee.

He was a leader in his religion.

He had nothing he was he was out bringing christians in to do the work of god.

He thought he thought this was a heretical faith and religion he thought he was Doing

the work of god by by by eliminating this this sect called followers of the way.

So there is there's no way to explain His sudden conversion to the

enemy's team so to speak to be a christian.

Where if you look at second corinthians 11, he talks about it then shipwrecked beat left for dead.

Um, you know, um tortured.

Um, you know left hungry left cold like he goes through a whole list and he says yet I do all this because of what I

believe so it was outside the realm.

Yeah, it was outside the bible.

Yep.

So the conversion of saw to paul is inexplicable

outside of.

Not just the resurrection but his appearance or his um, the appearance of jesus to him

uh, it would take I always say some people aren't going to just come to church on sunday and get saved some people need a Saw to paul moment.

They need to be literally knocked down hit on the head.

Um, it's got to be extreme.

So that's one now the other one that we we don't talk about a lot is james and this james has

a book in the bible called james.

But this james is the half brother of jesus.

There's another one named jude who's in there as well.

And if you look in john chapter 7 also, I think in matthew 13 in matthew 13.

It says, you know, they're questioning who is this jesus and they say isn't he?

The son of joseph and mary and aren't his brothers and they list them and his sisters they list them

James his brothers.

They made fun of jesus.

Uh, john chapter 7 says they mocked him.

Um.

They didn't believe he was the messiah.

Now you got to picture this if your brother is the messiah, you know, you're up late studying.

He's.

He's he's blinking and getting an a on the test.

Can you picture having jesus as your brother?

I mean seriously, I I thought about this picture.

Like just picture what it's like being with in the family of jesus.

I mean, where's mary?

Can you be like your brother jesus?

He never did anything wrong, right?

I mean, what a standard.

He's not only the firstborn.

He's perfect.

You know, it's like wow, okay.

They weren't happy with him.

So Yeah on that on john I think john 7 they're like well you're so great.

Why don't you go down there and do some more miracles and they're making fun of him the mockery.

It's in the bible um.

But something happened something happens.

Where james becomes a his the same brother who mocked him becomes a leader in the church ends up being martyred as well.

Writes writes the book of or the um, the letter of james is in our bible.

So um.

Once again skeptics and atheist scholars have a hard time explaining these two individuals.

If the resurrection is not historical fact so.

The lane of the skeptics is is a huge, uh issue and then like I said the empty tomb now.

One thing we didn't talk about the empty tomb.

Is that in matthew 28 11 through 15?

It talks about um.

That.

The the jewish leaders Paid off the guards to say the disciples stole the body and it says this saying is

commonly reported to this very day.

The truth is in the details when you when you read the bible um.

You have to you have to question.

And I think if you're open if you're if you're honestly open some people are not honestly open they say they're open.

But they're not honestly open if you remove any presupposition against the supernatural.

And say okay, let me just see does this make sense based on what I see in the text.

What evidence exists and why this would have happened or not happen?

We've already covered that the disciples gained nothing lost everything but

There's certain details and I and i've written some stuff and i've done some speaking on something called undesigned coincidences.

This is not one but this is just another lane of evidence an undesigned coincidence back to the being a detective is something where?

If you have several witnesses and jim separates them and all that.

And you're interviewing this witness and they're not even trying to deceive you.

But they're just talking and they and then in the course of them talking they say something that seems you know Doesn't really make much of a difference.

But you're writing it down and then you're interviewing another witness and they say something and it doesn't seem it's not a big deal.

They say a blue hat was on the ground.

It doesn't seem like a big deal, but you write it down.

And when you put everything together.

They don't know.

Not even that they were in collusion, but they don't know that all those pieces that they gave just nonchalantly.

Actually make the whole story work and fit together.

What you find in scripture?

With matthew mark luke and john, especially.

Are certain undesigned coincidences that something some little line in john?

Will give clarity to something that you're questioning about.

Why did why was this person there?

Whatever the case is in luke.

And oh, that's what was happening.

And it all makes sense and and that doesn't speak of collusion that speaks of a happy accident really

it speaks of the fact that They were they were simply writing what they thought to write and writing what they saw and or

experience what eyewitnesses of or interview people to to ascertain and

Us with the benefit of hindsight and having the total corpus of scripture to look at.

We can parse through it and dissect and say oh man, like this has to be god.

Because who else could put these who else could connect all these dots?

There's no way that they pre -meditated how to make this.

Cosine this where we find something else in scripture.

So if you remove the presuppositions against the supernatural.

The resurrection hypothesis has explanatory scope it explains

The most evidence in a singular fashion.

It has explanatory power it's less ad hoc.

We don't have to invent new theories.

We simply have to believe what is in the text and not just because it's in the text, but because.

When we examine everything and we and we try to think through all the alternative scenarios.

This is the only one that it's a straight line.

And it's and it's less contrived so based upon the evidence.

Based upon the text based upon the external evidence based upon the plausibility of other theories.

This is why evidentially we can come to align with the resurrection hypothesis.

So you're saying the history channel is wrong?

All that.

Just to say that really.

And and and you know for folks there's are.

There's some folks commenting you would not be or let me ask it as a question.

Are would you be more of an evidential apologist or presuppositional apologist.

Me personally.

Evidential?

Okay.

And so I say that just because some folks kind of find it, you know, they're they're like i'm a presupp guy

um.

And people think like we can't get along.

It's it now folks that I want folks.

Listen notice Alex is not giving evidence for god.

He's giving evidence of a resurrection.

Okay, so there's a difference we you know, there's this view within presupp that we can't have evidence

no.

We do look at evidence as well, right is we don't give up.

That you know, I always say this there's two presuppositions that I hold to God exists he has

spoken.

So i'm not going to give up God's existence.

I'm not going to give up his word and Notice that alex is not doing that either here.

Alex is giving you what the scripture says, but there's nothing that stops us from looking beyond scripture.

To say here's outside evidences that support what the scriptures say.

That's not giving up scripture.

Okay.

So, you know, I just want to point that because we were like, you know, we're coming.

I want to bring nicholas in he's been waiting.

He's got some testament and uh some questions on the resurrection, so Nicholas if

you're there You can unmute yourself.

I know he was on camera earlier.

We'll give him a little bit.

There you go Nicholas welcome.

You got to unmute yourself.

As he's working, okay, there we go.

I'm here.

I mean, sorry.

I'm not trying to be ominous and in the dark.

You know, we understand you want the picture of the world map behind you because you're you're just trying to show.

You're more missions oriented than us.

I mean look.

You you guys may not have been seeing the come.

I've been seeing the comments about the fact that people are commenting that Alex right now has more books on his

very small bookshelf behind him there.

Have on mine.

And I understand that I I understand some of you guys are just having fun.

Someone in the private chat, uh Vincent had said he can't trust me because I have no book for myself.

Okay, so I understand.

Nicholas you're trying to show that you're you're more spiritual than both of us because you don't have books.

You have a world map.

Well, I understand.

I figured I might as well try and compete with matt slick's humbleness, right?

Yeah.

All right, um, so my question is uh from just in genesis 6 5.

Something i've been thinking about for a while um, but.

With god being sovereign right.

When he created man in the world and knowing that we would sin and so forth.

Um, why in that text?

Before he you know tells noah.

Um comes to noah and so forth.

Does it say that like it grieved him and then he regretted that he made him like made man?

Let's let's start in verse in chapter one after turn in verse verse one of chapter six.

Yeah five verses um actually.

Let me just switch.

Yesterday It says when man Began to multiply on the face of the

land and the daughter The daughters were born to them.

The sons of god saw that the daughters of men were attractive and they took as

wives.

Took took as their wives any they chose.

The lord said my spirit shall not Man forever for he

is flesh and his days shall be 120 years.

The nephilim were on the earth in those days and also

afterward when the sons of god Came to the daughters of men They bore children

to them.

These were the mighty men who were of old men of renown.

And then verse five the lord saw the wickedness of man was great on the earth.

And every intention of the thoughts of his heart Was only evil

continually and the lord regretted this is verse six the lord regretted that he made man

on the earth and It grieved him to his heart.

So the lord said I will blot out man from whom i've created from the face of the land.

Animals man and animals and creeping things birds in heaven of the heaven.

For I am sorry that I made them but noah found favor in his in his eyes.

So your your question is in verse six this idea of god regretting.

Okay.

Yeah based on his knowing already.

Okay.

So let's and this is why it's always important to look at the context first off

because This context makes it very clear.

What's what's happening, right?

This is going to be differing views of who are sons of god and the daughters of men.

Okay I actually don't know where alex will will come down on on this but um

the The jewish tradition and a view that's held by by many.

Um, you brought up matt slick matt agrees with this as well as I do.

I i'm not super I could be convinced otherwise but I believe that the

Sons of god is used to refer to angels.

So in some form Seems like these were angels that were either physically able to have

offspring with women or having relations with women.

Or it may have been demon -possessed men That were doing such but whatever

whatever was going on there.

It was so wicked That it caused god to bring about a worldwide

global flood.

Okay, so Right there you see that this is not something normal.

It's not something that is just God said up there.

They're being bad.

This is this is some sort of supernatural wickedness do you see that from the context at least

even even if there's there's people who try to say that it's the line of seth and the line, uh, you know

of uh of kane.

If you read the context, there's nowhere doesn't mention anything about kane or seth.

No, well, I don't think that's.

You know people I think reading into sun because they they don't want to typically, they just don't want to accept that could be

some sort of demonic activity, but When we look at this word, um

that is is used here in the esv is uh regret or Later in verse,

uh in verse seven.

I am sorry uh.

This word has a couple different meanings it it it actually means regret to be sorry.

To console oneself or to comfort.

To lament to groan to grieve.

So there there's actually a wide range of usage.

Now the idea we think of regret means You know, he changed his mind on it and that's not

the case here.

Okay He knew all along this would happen.

But it still grieved him when it did happen, right?

Now nicholas, I don't know.

Do you have any you have any kids?

I do.

Um, my son elijah who's just over five months now five months.

So you'll get to understand this illustration.

Give it a couple years and you're gonna fully understand this illustration, right?

There's times where we we put things for our kids to do and and like Not

that we're god.

We're not all knowing but you know your kids well enough.

You know that there's times they're just going to do something shouldn't do

right and As they're doing it it grieves you even though

You you kind of expected they would do it.

It still hurts you that they chose to do that, right?

And that makes sense um.

And what you mentioned earlier too just with the context and everything and that's something i've wrestled with too is like Is

it is it literally like the sons of god in the terms of angels or was it like sons of god?

Because i've also heard the other sons of god meaning like maybe maybe people that were actually right, like

noah righteous men who were um I don't know where I heard that from.

I might have been on here from somebody.

Um, oh, yeah.

Yeah, alex.

What's your view on it?

Yeah, my view so the sons of god is it's kind of misleading because um.

It's not when you think sons of god you're thinking holiness, but the sons of god.

Would would in my estimation be fallen angels.

Even when you look at uh, the beginning of joe the council that is there is referred to in similar language

but it's not holy angels and so.

What what I see is the ultimate thing because we know from genesis 3 15 God is

sending forth the savior through Through a certain bloodline right that he's going to establish

but there's so much wickedness because of these fallen angels that god has to essentially purify the bloodline because this

promise still has to be fulfilled for redemption and because of this this intermingling

intermarriage um that was happening he's going to have to create the the

the bloodline to come through noah through a righteous source so that he can eventually get through all the generations to get up to

jesus, but I think that's what's significant in this because it's not.

Um, I agree.

I don't think anything about seth or or kane or I think people are You know making it too allegorical

at that point, but I think it is fallen angels um that are now somehow

in the earth able to uh coincide with these these women and it is

Tainting not just the earth but the bloodline that the messiah is going to have to come through.

Oh cool.

Thanks for answering my question andrew and letting me ask um one for you alex was just um, you

were bringing up some uh non -christian sources um other sources

talking about like um the fact that I think they wrote to caesar or something like that just about like How the sky

went dark and all that stuff after yeah, jesus died and all of that.

What what were some of those uh sources?

Uh, just like the names of the guys.

Yeah, the um, sutonius, uh, s u e t o n i

u s.

Um, you probably know of josephus.

Tacitus was another historian.

Um, pliny the younger p l i n y the younger um.

Uh mara bar, uh serapion, I think it's mara m a r a

b a r s a r a p i o n um.

And you can look at some some primary source stuff from them.

Okay, let me see.

Let me see if I can find one right here.

So sutonius.

Well, he says a lot actually but he says um to squelch the rumor nero.

Created scapegoats and subjected to the most refined tortures those whom the common people call christians a group

hated for the abominable crimes.

The author of this name christ during the reign of tiberius had been executed by the procurator pontius pilate.

Suppressed for the moment the deadly superstition broke out again.

The superstition he's referring to is that he rose.

Not only in judea the land which originated this evil.

But also in the city of rome where all sorts of horrendous and shameful practices from every part of the world converge.

And are fervently cultivated.

So that's tacitus and so and actually what's interesting I remember last year reading

all of the apologetic works from the very first century up to present day not in totality, but every you know

origin iranian Tertullian all the way up through aquinas and augustine and you know all the way

up but the early apologists and apologetic shifts, um.

As as time periods the middle -aged apologists were dealing with Um certain issues that were not they're not

not they're not really our issues today.

And the earliest apologists the main thing they were trying to do was stay alive.

They were trying to to give apologetic reasons for why you should stop killing christians.

And here's what's interesting when you read the early apologetic writings origin

justin the martyr tertullian what they're the case they're making is that.

Well, first of all what they're being accused of christians were thought to be atheists.

Which is weird, right?

But the reason people thought the reason the romans, uh thought they were atheists because.

They didn't worship the roman gods.

So the rule was you can worship any god you want as long as you also worship the roman gods.

But the only group who wouldn't do that was the christians and so they ended up getting tortured but the thing was they also believed that they were

um.

Sexually promiscuous because they would greet each other with a holy kiss.

So all these things were being taken out of context and the christians were being tortured and worse.

And so justin the martyr and others are writing saying look, let me explain what actually is happening.

This is what we believe.

Um, this is why this is why we do what we do.

This is why we eat this weird meal.

It's called communion.

So they had to explain all these things.

But basically they were saying so now that you understand could you please stop killing us?

And so the the misinterpretation of certain things.

That was happening is actually kind of the reason we have a lot of these other people like pliny and tacitus writing

anything.

Because they're trying to figure out how to deal with this weird group called christians.

And you remember that the christians didn't call themselves christians.

That was that was not a name.

They gave themselves.

The word christian is only in the bible three times and it's always derogatory.

So they were called followers of the way um, but but these things in a

historical sense um.

The the other writers who write about jesus and the disciples and everything that came with the early church.

We're kind of trying to figure out like what do we do with these people?

They're they're weird.

They do these weird things.

They believe weird things.

And because of that they were writing a lot about it.

So.

Cool.

Well, I appreciate i'll look into those.

That's awesome.

Because you guys mentioned earlier just on the side thread that I did a study on the resurrection with uh,

Using josh mcdowell's book the evidence of the resurrection awesome book man and like.

After that, I was just like wow, this is just intense and I recently had a conversation with a co -worker Who's

an agnostic and an atheist at the same time?

Um.

And that's one of the things I know it's crazy.

That's one of the things that we were talking about is, you know, the resurrection and I started going through the theories

and it's I mean, right it was just red herring after red herring at that point because They

were just breaking down one by one and so this is these are actually some good sources, um that

Lord willing we get back to work in the office after this virus is done and uh, I can continue the conversation.

So.

And i'm trying to look alex.

You may know i'm while you're answering i'm looking through cold case christianity.

Jim wallace's site.

He had An article i'm seeing a long time ago, which

provided all of the all of the documentation of

References to christ and resurrection outside of scripture.

Yeah, it was an overwhelming list.

I remember that night.

Do you happen to remember?

Um either.

Article or.

If you search on because his website is so robust if you say.

I didn't like looking at this.

Now i'm going.

I haven't been out there in a while and i'm like Dude is like non -stop.

I told him the other night we were talking.

And I was like man I gotta get to the point where I could pump out content like you like so i'm on the i'm on the um,

the email list I I probably get.

Like two youtube videos.

Or three youtube videos a week three posts in my email every week.

And I know he does other things.

Yeah, I think he does he does like an article a day.

What you may give me something good to search for for this so we could so i'm not sure on his site.

But I don't know.

Um, and what i'm sorry, what's your name again?

Nicholas.

So have you read cold case christianity?

I haven't read that book yet.

No.

So put that next on your list because it'll give.

I know it's in that book.

But I don't know where on his website it is.

Yeah um.

But the other thing I would say even with your with your friend at work if he's willing.

If he's really on an honest search for truth.

Ask if he would if you could read this book together like he you know, you read it you talk about a chapter every week something like

that because.

What what you may not know so jim wallace was an atheist till he was 35.

He used to make fun of christians.

He didn't believe it.

And one day he goes to a church and it piques his interest.

Something somebody said and he went and bought a bible and he bought it to dissect it.

I don't know um.

The book that first got me into apologetics not and I was already saved but I just discovered it the case for christ.

By lee strobel.

And it was in the back of my closet.

My mom gave it to me.

I never read it and I when I started reading it and if you know lee strobel, he was an atheist and he set out.

To prove his wife wrong.

Because he was mad that she was becoming a christian.

And in trying to prove her wrong he proved christianity was true.

And he says this line at the end of that book and it's it's the line that always stuck with me.

He said and if you see the movie, it's in picture form.

He said when I got when I looked at it I had this wall and I was I was putting all the evidence up.

He was a legal reporter for the tribune.

So he's used to examining Eyewitness statements and investigating and all that.

He said when he looked at all the evidence on his wall.

He said it would actually take more faith not to believe than to believe.

And anybody who's on an honest let's say honest search for truth.

If they're really willing to take a look at all the evidence and and to jim's point and and you know, this is more of the

evidential side like he said I I believe we can prove it true.

Even if we didn't have scripture.

I'm not denying scripture.

I'm not saying don't use it.

But that makes it such a strong case that I believe it's accessible to anybody.

So, you know i'll give you a different angle that I would go.

Here's how I would go with it.

And and and I maybe it's because I like to have a look.

I like to have fun.

You know, I'd go to your co -worker and he he's saying he's an agnostic atheist.

And I would just go.

No, you're not.

And I was oh, yes, I am.

No, you know god exists.

You're just suppressing that in unrighteousness.

And then what you do is proceed to ask him how many.

You know blogs he reads on atheism.

How many websites he goes to on atheism.

How much research he does on atheism and answering? christian arguments.

Then how many how many times he's reading articles against islam?

Or hinduism or buddhism.

Or any other religion and what you typically will find is the only religion.

They're actually looking to debunk Is christianity right?

That's a good point.

So what I do is when I get them to admit that they've done all this research.

I ask them this simple question.

Hey in december.

Do you go to the mall?

Yeah.

Do you go outside where they're taking the photos and do you scream that santa claus is not real?

People.

And they always go no.

And I go why not?

And the answer I always get.

Because everyone knows santa claus isn't real.

And then I just sit until it sinks in.

Sometimes you actually get guys that realize what they just said.

Because they realize the reason they're doing all this research into attacking

christianity and trying to prove they're an atheist.

Is because they know it's real.

Didn't if they actually believed what they claim.

If they actually believed that god didn't exist.

They'd be quiet.

Yeah, they wouldn't.

70 80 years of life.

I'm gonna waste that trying to debunk something.

That's that's a fairy tale.

Agreed.

Yeah, that's a good point.

You won't see them doing that with santa claus.

Because everyone knows he's not real.

So if everyone knew that jesus that god is not real like they claim They wouldn't waste so much

time.

That's a more fun way of doing it as well.

I like that too.

Those are good points.

No.

I've actually did that all it was really funny.

There's a picture someone has of me doing open air in new york city all day long Asking that question

over and over and over and then there's a picture of a guy that literally Big jolly

looking fellow with a long white beard.

And he's right there and he said someone captured a picture of of me talking with him.

And they put it up and they said capture this, you know, like put a meme to this or capture capture and and

like everyone who knew what was going on all day was like, you know, You've been at because the guy's hands were out like

outstretched.

And so the best one was like you've been asking where I am all day and here I am.

That's good.

The reality is he's he's not an atheist.

Right.

He knows god exists.

He just suppresses that and the proof of it Is in all the study that he does to to prove it.

Yeah thing to do with them and you can do this.

I Years ago I used to say this with anyone that's a hardcore atheist.

Now you could do it with anyone that is is uh promoting, uh homosexuality.

Just ask them what church they grew up in.

Yeah, and with him that was the first question that I asked.

Um.

And then and what happened in the church?

Um.

Yeah, and with him it was just he grew up roman catholic.

Um.

Right and i'm like, okay well that that answers my question as a christian.

Um, and then he's like but then I was also mormon too for my wife's sake while my ex -wife's sake and I did.

I tried to ask him what happened and again, he just threw out a.

Another question to try and fight me on something else because I don't think he wants to talk about it.

Because if he does right that truth that he's suppressing he's gonna have to deal with.

Yes.

Exactly.

Yeah and mormonism.

This is the thing with mormon mormonism.

Uh will go out of its way to try to debunk christianity.

Which is really crazy because then they say they're christian.

I yeah.

Yeah, I know.

They have a whole campaign.

We're christian too.

Wait a minute uh.

You you claim the church fell away and you had to restore it.

How are you?

I know I'm christian now, you know, it's like the joe.

Is our christian now.

Catholics are christian now everyone wants to be christian, but they all yeah catholics haven't denied that Council of trent says that we're

we're you know, uh accursed and sent to hell because of belief of justification by faith alone.

So how could we be the same?

Yeah and living in utah.

Living in utah with mormon co -workers and I do evangelism with luke wayne and

uh Aaron shuffle walloff here in salt lake.

Yeah humble square and stuff.

Yeah, luke's actually a really close friend of mine.

So for folks who don't know luke wayne is a blogger.

Uh work.

He works at carm .org christian apologetics research ministry.

And uh alex, um, you could pronounce the last name.

I can never pronounce it, right?

But Uh, he's over with mormon research ministry mrm .org the best place to get

information on mormonism.

Um, he works over there with uh, bill mckeever and and eric johnson two great guys.

Don't let them know.

I said that.

Okay well, and it's like mormon actually dealing with mormonism is the thing that actually kind of was like

the Catalyst getting me into apologetics in the first place.

I mean other than matt slick listening to carm I guess he would get the full credit and that might not be a good thing.

Into apologetics as well.

You were going to say something alex.

No, I was just um as he was talking.

Um, all right, you know brought up the the guy your friend who was in the catholic church and this and that.

So with the whole coronavirus thing, I don't know if you saw this article.

Um, the pope said Since we have to shelter in place go take your sins directly to god.

I was like Yeah, I heard that on the podcast from two weeks ago, and I was I just started

praying right there.

I'm, like lord, please let this like be the thing be the thing in.

Yeah, like.

Like I I mentioned that on the show when that was done and I just loved it.

I was like, this is great.

So basically the pope just admitted that the protestants have been right all along.

You could go right to jesus.

It's the pope so they can't say he's wrong, right?

I wonder what uh, what our old friend, uh, the catholic traditionalist thinks of that now.

I wonder if he's reshaped his own theology.

So so alex, we got a guy that um He goes by the term of catholic traditionalist.

He doesn't think the pope is catholic by the way, okay.

Um, he's a I I can't pronounce the term it's a secant saint cantata or whatever it

basically they believe ever since the uh you know vatican 2

The the church went off the rails and they're no longer the church and so you believe in a

the church that was that really was the church which is really messed up because How do a bunch of people that are not the magisterium

not the author and not the authorities in the church make that determination?

Right if the church hides all that stuff.

It's kind of a Problem, but yeah, that would be funny.

So we've kicked him out of here because he he kept uh, he would he'd ask the same question of every guest apologist

Answered it and every guest would answer it every week and then he just he just was

belligerent, so we've We banned him, but yeah, it would be interesting to see what he says about the pope saying that

well My guess is he would just say he's that pope's not catholic so it doesn't matter.

I guess he's the answer.

But then where is your authority head.

Because you got to have the authority head over you.

So who is his?

Okay, let me uh vincent in so he could pronounce the term because vincent is.

No, no, no, i'm from the south.

I can't pronounce anything right.

So.

It's a set of a cantist.

Yeah.

Server the cantist.

Is that right.

Yeah close as I can get it.

Yeah.

Matt knows those things.

Yeah.

He knows too much.

Look you got to understand son.

Matt's getting old.

He's forgetting.

He's starting to forget more than he knows, you know.

I'm, just saying he even forgot it's thursday night.

You don't see him here, right?

He forgot.

I thought he got raptured or something.

Yeah, well I love you.

I wouldn't put past matt to believe in in the rapture.

I know he does believe in a rapture just not the way most people do.

So any any nicholas any other questions you got for us tonight?

No, that's it man.

This has been great and uh, alex Thanks for sharing what you were sharing earlier on.

It was just good to hear some more of that.

It was a big encouragement to me and my wife and lord willen with my next question.

I'll chime back in andrew and God bless you in your ministry.

Anyway, I can pray for you guys tonight.

I'm always open to it.

Okay.

Sounds good.

I'll just i'll just state.

Uh, if you if you could pray there's a lot going on in my local church a lot of.

Just a lot going on and this virus stuff is not making it any easier.

So, uh my my pastor, uh, we're a church plant small church.

Uh pastor was there for one year and resigned and so um you know, I have been

uh asked to Take over the pulpit ministry for a while.

So i've been taken up.

I've had to we started uh, midweek bible study and book of genesis this week I'm teaching that i'm

leading a thing on friday nights um, and then Doing handling the pulpit so

and doing some of the counseling that's been going on.

So it's uh, I guess that's providence, you know, i've learned i've learned that uh last

year.

Uh, I had this weird thing.

I'm always traveling in the summer.

I mean basically june To september october.

I mean like every week i'm on the road.

And last year was weird.

I had nothing scheduled and I started thinking like maybe I should make some phone calls like Get get

some things scheduled.

I don't know.

I don't know and I just said, you know what?

If there's nothing scheduled that god knows better than me i'll just See what happens.

Well, I ended up going in for surgery that I didn't know about but god did so.

You know, we ended up having similar things going on this year where I was like, oh, okay.

Well, i'm trying to move to be closer to the church move into a different state um, and so I'm, like, all

right.

Well, maybe god knows that I need to be you know, I need to be uh.

You know have time to move so maybe I you know, that's why I don't have too many speaking events.

No, it's because there's going to be a coronavirus and i'm going to be speaking every week just at one church.

So god knows better than than we do.

So we're trying to force things.

You know, you know, it's just trust god.

He actually knows what he's doing.

Yeah.

So yeah, I'd appreciate prayer for that.

Of course we'll do and and you're not you guys are not having to suffer with the kids being Cooped up in the

house because a five -month -old just kind of lies there.

Yeah, well, we're already cooped and we're already suffering anyway.

Yeah, it's crazy I think i'm going on like week four or five of working from home so it's been crazy but You know mentioning

providence and stuff um god's really been using this for good just in my life with my wife and

Teaching me how to lead her in the word and in prayer and just really.

Really focus and seek god where I was being lazy and having excuses prior.

So Yeah.

Use the time.

I mean People have been asking me.

So, you know, how do you how are you dealing with?

You know being at home and i'm like Well, my wife and I both work out of the house

like we work side by side in the ministry and so it's like Really not much different.

It's just that we go out.

Right, but i'm like, let me get this straight.

So i'm forced to stay home with my bride.

Every day.

Yeah, i'm call that heaven.

Yep.

That's great.

You know, I mean i'm like i'm loving it.

I'm like oh what's what's the complaint about.

I mean I don't.

I got no speaking events.

I'm not traveling anywhere.

I'm just hanging out with my wife every day.

Yep, that's pretty good.

Yeah, and I I um I think You know this has shifted some

things for a lot of people.

And but in a good way and i'm actually hoping and as even as we kind of joked about the thing with the pope

um.

There's there's there's a certain group of people That you're not hearing a lot from right now

except for crazy, uh prophecies and stuff if you know what I mean, but the prosperity preachers

are kind of silent and A lot of the prophets Prophets are kind of silent um,

and so God has a way i'm not saying he caused this thing.

I'm just saying he can redeem it though and redeem the situation and Some of the stuff that needs to fall away is

falling away and i'm hoping it's permanent falling away but the other thing I think what you said and what i've tried to focus on myself

and I write a blog about.

Um, not necessarily purely about apologetics.

It's called relentless pursuit of purpose because.

The bigger thing I I want to substantiate is that okay since god does exist he has you here for a reason

um.

For you to figure out what that is and this is a gift of time.

Every every everybody who said I didn't have time to read a book.

I didn't have time for this and you have time now.

Ironically, I don't actually because i'm in school full time um, and I got you know, i've worked from home a lot,

but my two kids are here now, so that's that changes it but I there's far worse things

to far far better people.

Um, so i'm not complaining i'm in the same same boat as andrew and um, if anything just pray for us.

We have a one -year house church that uh Is going strong and we just pray that it gets stronger that it

grows.

That it actually can become a model for people because when we come out of this.

Some church structures may have to change.

And uh, we want to be an asset.

We actually are saying hey, you know this midweek on online might actually work better for people's schedules

but.

We got we got a couple minutes left.

Uh, vincent you were you were in.

You have any questions tonight?

Well, let me make a few observations first.

Uh, okay.

Well, thank you vincent.

We'll put you in the backstage.

Oh I'm glad to see you got rid of all your heretical books behind you.

You see you're saying you're saying mcarthur and ironside and.

You just need your you just need a bible back there at least come on Bible back there.

All right right there.

Hold on.

Oh, it's behind your book.

I'll see.

There you go.

And actually.

For our friend for a friend john wilkinson, it's the nice You know esv heirloom

goat skin that's very nice and soft buttery soft to bust on him.

That's a nice book.

At least at least you got one real book one theological book back there.

Um, alex, no, no, bro, I love what you said tonight and it reminds me a lot of what i've heard from vote vody.

I love how vody comes with this subject.

So i'm very appreciative of your your take on this.

I'm sure you've heard a lot about vote vody's stance on all this and yeah, he's one of the ones that

instrumental in in me thinking the same way that you are so I

I love my brother vody there on that.

When it comes to this whole jesus mythicist stuff man, you know one of our friends tyler raylor man he is such an

excellent resource on on the on the jesus mythicist stuff because he definitely uh

Confronts him a lot probably a lot more than.

It was published online too because we we deal with it behind the scenes a bit.

So Okay, good good stuff.

So I appreciate all y 'all done tonight.

Uh, The only thing I would like to add is like what do these people think that you know the whole of history?

Everything we mark our time by is is on jesus.

I mean.

A lot of people try to ignore say common error.

Well, what's the common error that we're talking about?

You can't get away.

What is all of history?

Judged or counted by?

Yeah, it's it's a great.

It's a great point and You know.

It's over it's like you said, it's just overlooked.

They don't even address it.

They don't deal with it um, you know.

What is ad mostly about a lot of people probably don't even know what ad means.

Um,.

But we know and like you say whether you say common error or not, it's still a demarcation point um

based on a carpenter from nowhere who built nothing.

So why are we even talking about him in the first place?

Uh, I asked this question one time I was doing a q a I was like, can anyone else name a

carpenter from the first century by name?

I Just in palestine jesus's father joseph and and that that right there I wasn't ready for that answer and one

of my guys said It was one of my friends he said his dad dad gonna that's

right.

But but you get my point right we can't.

I mean nazareth you only know about joseph because of jesus.

There you go.

All right.

There we go.

And so, uh, yeah to your point man, there's no way around certain aspects of this

whole um conversation.

I the the point we want to get people to to come to and I love andrew what you're doing with the with open

air and even with the show because The bible the bible is clear and this is this is where we align

because i'm I always come back to scripture.

I was a pastor before I was an apologist and Every knee will bow every tongue

will confess.

The thing is You either bow on this side or the next.

But if you don't bow if you bow on the next you don't get back up.

I would I would I want to bow the knee to him to the king now.

While I have the opportunity to do so and all I want and I know there's people who are going to perpetually

disagree, but I'm i'm not trying to Convince you of

my truth that that crazy lingo we hear nowadays.

This greg coco has a book called the story of reality.

This is simply the this this simply outlines what actually happened in real time in real history.

I'm, not giving you my opinion.

We're not giving you our opinion.

We're giving whoever's listening and whoever we talk to in life.

These are these are the events that occurred.

Now what you do with that is up to you.

But my sincere hope our sincere hope all of us here is that we want you to say, okay.

Just like andrew said, you know what?

The math doesn't work out.

This can't be.

This can't be fake.

If you look at and the same thing you said, um, there's a number called skewer's number.

I think it's one in ten to the hundred and thirtieth.

It's the number where mathematicians stop counting.

And when you look at all the prophecies not just pertaining to jesus.

But pertaining to the the kingdom divisions of four to two to one all the prophecies the chances of.

All of those prophecies coming through exceeds skewers number.

There's no way to make this up.

So like like me anybody who comes to this with an honest open

Vantage point of view or or or heart and says let me just look at it and let me examine it based on what

um is documented and when you do that, you're like this just

I really want to find a way around this, but I just can't.

There's no way that that isaiah could have known.

And there's no way jeremiah could have known about that.

There's just no way.

And with the more recent history of the new testament, which is more testable it's even it's even more to the

case that the evidence backs up scripture, so Yeah, the jesus mythicist

I don't.

I don't even some of some some people.

I don't even know what to say.

I would I do prison ministry.

I'll give you a real quick example.

I teach in jail normally when I can twice a month.

Cook county jail is a large jail in the country here in chicago.

And we go into the pod we go into division nine, which is max security.

And we go into their their housing unit not to the chapel.

We go in where they live.

And i'm teaching one day.

And the one guy's like hey, I need you to come talk to my celly my cellmate.

And The in jail the last place I was expect to find somebody this guy was a flat earther.

And he was he was like go to this website I could show you this and go to.

I was like i'm not even going to debate this with you.

I have flown halfway around the world.

I'm not i'm not gonna debate this with you.

So yeah, some some people.

Like like andrew said they're suppressing the truth and some just suppress it harder than others.

That's right.

Yeah, so.

Uh alex, i'm glad you came on.

I appreciate uh, you know, it's fun good discussion good for the the time that it is.

Everyone thought you know a bunch of people thought that we planned this because of good friday and resurrection sunday and I went

actually, uh Alex said he wanted to come in.