December 21, 2020 Show with Bill Shishko & Dr. James White

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon radio listeners and internet listeners and I am not

Chris Arnzen. My name is Bill Shishko and I am broadcasting not from the historic parsonage in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, but from the study of the

Master of the Haven of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church now located, at least my study, in Malvern, New York.

Let me tell you what's going on. Chris is well, he is hale and hearty, but his brother in the faith,

James White, and I, dear friends, have all agreed, and particularly James and I agreed, that it's time to give

Chris a little break for a day and do something that Chris would not do for himself.

We know that many of you profit five days a week from Iron Sharpens Iron and from the podcasts of the programs we appreciate as Chris' faithfulness to the

Bible as the Word of God and his commitment to, in the right sense of the word, a militant

Christianity that we are about the work of defending the faith biblically. And James White and I are teaming up today to help

Chris. Chris lives pretty much on a shoestring. This is truly a faith -based ministry.

It's something that Chris gives his heart and soul to, but as with all faith -based ministries, at times finances can be a problem.

And especially in this year that's been a challenge to all of us with the lockdown, it's been a particular challenge to our brother

Chris. So here's what we're going to do in the next two hours. You won't be hearing incessant appeals for the raising of funds, but you will hear them.

What we're going to do in just a minute is my dear brother James White and I are going to batter with one another about different topics, particularly to help you as we go into a new year knowing how best to defend the

Christian faith to others. James will tell you about his ministry, Alpha and Omega Ministries, and what he does, but I want to draw some of the cream of his thinking today, not only to help me, but also to help you.

But this is a program to help raise funds for Chris Arntzen, and here's how you can do it.

The website for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is exactly what it sounds like,

Iron, and that's I -R -O -N, Sharpens Iron Radio. You Google that in and you'll get the fantastic website for Iron Sharpens Iron.

And there's a little menu at the top that will say support. If you click on that, it will give you information as to how you can donate to help out

Chris. We urge you to do that, not just a once at the end of the year gift, hopefully a generous one, but if you can give monthly, that would be even better to help

Chris with his support. And if you are like me, you like to send your gifts to Iron Sharpens Iron in by mail.

I like to help out the United States Postal System that needs all the help it can get, and I don't like paying fees on my credit card donations.

So for those of you who are in the same situation that I'm in, here's how you can do that. You can send your gift to Cruciform Media, C -R -U -C -I -F -O -R -M,

Cruciform Media, and that's C -R -U -C -I -F -O -R -M, Iron Sharpens Iron, and I think you've got that part,

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and the specifics for where you send your check to Cruciform Media, C -R -U -C -I -F -O -R -M,

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, 243 -B, as in boy, 243 -B,

South Hanover Street, South Hanover Street, and that's not all.

You have to add 2nd Floor and Suite 2R, that's not

S -W -E -E -T, but S -U -I -T -E, 2R, 243 -B, as in boy,

South Hanover Street, 2nd Floor, Suite 2R, as in Ricky, and that's

Carlisle, C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and the zip code is 170133957.

Again, that's Carlisle, Pennsylvania, 170133957.

And then put attention, Chris Arnzen, and along with your gift, just send them a note of encouragement for all the work that our brother does for the

Monday through Friday productions of Iron Sharpens Iron. And another way you can communicate with us is by sending an email.

You're going to send that to Chris Arnzen. That's all one word, C -H -R -I -S, capital

A -R -N -Z -E -N. I don't think the capitals make much difference, but it's Chris Arnzen, the host of the program normally, at gmail .com.

Give us just your first name and your city and state, or if you're from another country, we're thankful for the international listenership to Iron Sharpens Iron.

But if you want to send an email with a question for Dr. James White or for me, or just to send a commendation for Chris Arnzen and his program, that'll be great.

But in this end of the year of our Lord, 2020, we really do want to raise a generous amount of gifts for our brother,

Chris Arnzen, and also just enjoy one another for the next couple of hours. It's wonderful to have

James White with us, Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. James, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your work.

Oh, as Chris likes to say, I was the first person he had on Iron Sharpens Iron somewhere back in the 19th century,

I think. It's getting to be a long time now. And so we, for years, did the

Great Debate Series out there on Long Island. You moderated a couple of those debates.

One of the more humorous and famous instances was when you brought your gavel with you to the debate

I did with Patrick Madrid. And when you gaveled the time done, just about scared both

Mr. Madrid and I into hysterics. The only way we could get you guys to listen.

Well, not to listen, to shut up. That's what happens when two debaters are debating as we were.

It's interesting, as 2019 was coming to a close, we were just racking up the debates right, left, and center.

And it looked like we were going to have a bunch coming up in 2020. And then everything changed.

So we had all of one formal debate in the year 2020.

So we've done 175 of them. And it looks like in the future, most of those debates are going to be done, not in person, but via computer technology, which certainly can still be done.

But some of the dynamics, I think, are lost. But we're not giving up because apologetics still need to be done.

And there's still issues to be addressed. And so we're just about finished building a studio to be doing that kind of debating online and things like that.

So hopefully 2021, we'll see a bit of a difference there. But I know

I flew 169 ,000 miles in the air in 2019. And as it stands right now,

I will not fly in 2021. So everything has changed greatly during that time period.

But some of the issues are also apologetically relevant. I think we're facing some tremendous

Christian worldview issues that are coming our direction in the future in regards to the tremendous changes in our society.

And it really raises questions about the future of my own webcast.

I actually think Chris and Iron Sharpens Iron is in a little bit of a better position, quite honestly, than we are because of the way that Iron Sharpens Iron is made available online.

I think Chris is actually a little less susceptible to some of the pressures that some of the others of us face because we utilize things like YouTube and the social media platforms that could get rid of us.

And in fact, I'll be honest with you, I'm surprised they haven't yet gotten rid of us, given some of the things that we say and some of the things we have to say these days.

So much of what's happening in our society is very much associated with the Christian worldview issues regarding marriage and gender and family and things that Jesus addressed very, very clearly and very, very directly.

And we certainly don't believe that Christians have any wiggle room when it comes to affirming what it is that the

Lord taught, and certainly those are all big issues today. So anyway, we are busy out here in Phoenix, Arizona, and in fact,

I should make note that as soon as everyone's done listening to both hours of the program today, unless you have bad weather back there on Long Island, do you have clear skies back there right now?

Well, it's not clear, but it's better than it has been. It is great. Right now the sun's going down, but oh, you're talking about the stars showing this evening?

Is that what you're mentioning? Well, actually, as soon as we're done here, I'm actually at someone's home right now, one of our church members, and we are setting up.

We have enough homeschooled children in our church to field a few football teams with, well, actually many football teams.

And so tonight, as soon as we're done here, I'm setting up my telescopes, setting up two telescopes, because the human eye has never seen

Jupiter and Saturn this close to one another since the year 1226.

And of course, there were no telescopes in 1226, so this will be the first time you can ever look through the lens of a telescope and see both

Jupiter and Saturn sitting right next to each other, along with their many, many, many, many moons. It will be quite the amazing sight.

So if the listening audience, especially back east there, as we're wrapping up, that should be right about when you can look to the west -southwest and see something that won't be seen again, at least in my lifetime, in 800 years.

Well, at least if it's on Long Island. They're not going to see it tonight, but I think tomorrow night they'll also be able to see it fairly well, and it's to be clear then.

James, you mentioned, James and I had come up with a series of things to discuss, but James, since you mentioned issues coming down the pike on worldview,

I think all of us are aware that we're facing, we're in the midst of major changes in our culture.

I used to say, James, that we probably won't see persecution of Christians in our day, and I don't say that anymore for a lot of reasons.

What would you say are the main issues for Christians to have to defend, speak up about?

Let's say in the next five years. Well, I think we're moving into a period of soft totalitarianism.

That is, corporations, major tech, Google, Facebook, etc., are establishing a worldview that cannot be questioned.

And so if you dare question, if you dare step out of line, you will be deplatformed, you will be silenced.

I think Christians especially must very, very purposefully recognize that we need to make a stand as to who we are going to seek to please.

In other words, we will, right now you see people being shamed, people being called names and being shamed into silence, and we need to make the commitment that the one person that we do not wish to be ashamed before is our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in being embarrassed about his truth. And that will mean that we need to make the decision to look at the world, and when the world stands against Christ's teaching, when the world says it is good to have 143 different genders, that it's bad to recognize that from the beginning

God created them male and female, that we will only be concerned about what our

Lord thinks of us and our words, and not what the world thinks. And once we make that decision, then we need to stand with it.

And I've said for a while, I think we will see, and are already seeing, a tsunami of apostasy, a tsunami of compromise.

And I'll tell you, Bill, I have confessed to my own error, and I don't know if you've made the same error that I have, but a number of years ago

I would have said that amongst Reformed men, Reformed denominations, that the

Doctrine of Sola Scriptura would function as a bulwark to keep much of this foolishness at least out of our churches and our denominations.

And I was wrong. Now, maybe if Sola Scriptura was held to properly,

I suppose you could still make that argument, but the fact of the matter is that I am seeing in every denomination, including denominations

I never expected to see it in, I am seeing very troubling compromise and willingness to move directions that are extremely problematic in regards to holding to any meaningful doctrine of Biblical authority,

Biblical sufficiency, the willingness to bring in all sorts of worldly philosophies and ways of thinking that's creating a strange hybrid of theology, even in churches and denominations that only a few years ago

I would have said that no, it could never happen there. But I'm seeing it happen. So I was naive.

And James, me too, in all of that, I've been stunned by it. I keep thinking of what

Charles Spurgeon had to deal with in the 1800s in what he called the downgrade controversy, where he saw the same thing happening there so rapidly.

I remember, oh my, back in the 19, dating myself here, back in the 1970s when there was the

International Conference on Biblical Inerrancy, which was wonderful, but I remember then thinking to myself, the issue is not first the inerrancy of the

Scripture, it is the sufficiency of Scripture, the final authority of Scripture, which of course addresses its inerrancy, and I think we've seen the decline since.

One other thing, since this is a time of confession, when we had our gathering for what we called the

Presbytery, a regional group of churches, a couple of months ago, we had to do it by a Zoom meeting, and I was asked to exhort as one of the older men in that group, and I began by saying

I would have a statement of repentance in the middle, toward the end of the message, always a great way to get people's attention, right at the beginning, especially on a

Saturday morning. And my statement of repentance was this. When, in March of this year, the governor of our state in New York made his list of the four groups of what he called essential and non -essential businesses or projects or whatever, the

Christian Church was not mentioned in any of those four categories.

And my repentance, James, was for even for a moment allowing that the

Church is not essential in our culture when we're dealing with truth against error, light against darkness, life against death.

That's the most essential work in the world. So like you, I have done a lot of soul -searching in this year.

Other issues, we've talked about marriage, we've talked about gender, we've talked about the role of the state. Does it concern you, as it concerns me, that churches have been pretty quiet when it has come to what the

Supreme Court now admits was government overreach with respect to churches and shutting things down?

Well, the amazing thing is that there are so many mega -type churches that not only remain shut down but plan to continue in that mode for a great deal of time to come.

And at our church, we live in a, I guess you'd call it a purple state now, sadly.

It used to be a quote -unquote red state, but unfortunately we share a long border with California, and California is like a disease.

It just seeps out into the neighboring states. And so we do have a Republican governor, and so the elders never felt like there was a real demand that we stop meeting.

We always felt the governor left open that door. And so we never closed down.

We never stopped meeting. And it's amazing, in the fifth -largest city in the

United States, there were only a handful of churches that took that stance and kept meeting, and we've tripled in size as a result since March.

We very frequently have visitors coming from California and other states that literally fly in simply to go to church.

I mean, that's why they've come. They're not going to see the Grand Canyon. They've come to go to church. It's an amazing thing, and to see tears in their eyes at the end of the service that they've had that opportunity.

So I think we have gained an insight into modern

American ecclesiology. I know I personally have certainly increased greatly in my recognition of the beauty and importance of the

Lord's Supper, the fellowship, the encouragement and faith that is gained from seeing the saints proclaiming the

Lord's death until he comes, the beauty of baptism taking place and that commitment to Christ, and then just simply the reality that there are many of our people who are convicted in their soul that they need to be under the consistent, rightly handled preaching of the

Word of God on a regular basis where they can be seen by the one proclaiming the

Word. It's not just simply listening to someone on a Zoom call or watching a video or something like that, that they need to have that kind of fellowship around the things of God.

It's been great to see Christians recognizing how vitally important that is and to be reminded that Christians forever have sacrificed so much to be able to meet together.

They have endangered themselves to be able to have that privilege. And so what's going to happen after January 21?

I don't know. But let me just throw out a scenario to you to think about.

I'm seeing all this stuff about a new strain of COVID in Europe, and flights have been banned from the

UK to Europe. And so how's this for a beginning of 2021?

How about there's a new strain of COVID and Joe Biden becomes president and locks everything down and has a federal mandate that includes all churches must cease meeting.

Is that a possibility? Anybody who would say it's not hasn't been awake during 2020, and that's going to once again raise all sorts of issues that we're going to need to be dealing with as churches and considering and thinking about.

Yeah, exactly. I could, despite what minor differences you and I might have in certain doctrinal things in church life,

I can't give a heartier amen to what you just said. Praise the Lord for that. And let me explain to listeners what we're doing today.

My good brother James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and I are giving Chris Harnson a break today, and we're doing it so that we can help raise support for him.

This Iron Sharpens Iron is truly a faith -based ministry. And while Chris doesn't always emphasize it because he's a pretty self -effacing fellow, he really does need your support, not just end -of -the -year gifts but also monthly gifts, even weekly gifts when you can give them.

Chris Harnson and Iron Sharpens Iron have been just the most helpful to us in helping us understand what the

Word of God says and standing for the kinds of things that James and I are talking about today.

So here's how you can give to Chris Harnson, and I hope you'll do it right now. Check out the website,

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. You can Google that in. I don't think they've banned it so far, although I better not speak too loudly.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and you'll see a little button at the top where you can donate.

You can donate there. It's probably the easiest way to do it. If you would prefer to send a check in order to support

Chris, and also write him a note, because Chris always appreciates hearing from his listeners. That's one of the challenges when you're in front of a microphone.

You don't get to see the people that you're speaking with, but you can send your check to Cruciform Media, Cruciform Media, and that's care of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I think if you just put Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, it'll get here, 243B as in Boy, 243B

South Hanover Street, and that's the second floor, and it's suite 2R.

R as in Ricky, second floor, suite 2R, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Carlisle, C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E,

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, among other things, the headquarters for the American Banner of Truth Trust Distribution, and the zip code there, 17013 -3957, 17013 -3957, and then do put attention to Chris Arnzen and send him a note.

Also, we'd love to get your e -mail questions, comments, testimonials about the program, and you can do that by just e -mailing right now to Chris Arnzen.

That's all one word, C -H -R -I -S, Arnzen, A -R -N -Z -E -N, at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, your city and state, or your nation, if you're writing or e -mailing from overseas, and we'll, later in the program, we'll get those on the program for you.

James White, our guest. James, you're well known for the way you deal graciously and at the same time head on, straight on, dealing with Islam.

Talk to us a little bit, as more and more Muslims come to our neighborhoods, what should we understand about Islam and give us basic things to do to present the

Gospel to our Muslim friends and neighbors? Well, especially there on Long Island, for those listening in that area, there is, when

I was traveling worldwide, one thing I can tell you is that 95 % of the time

I got into a taxi cab, I had a Muslim driver. And getting those conversations started is not difficult to do if you want to start the conversation.

If you have a Muslim move in next door, you're going to find that the vast majority of these folks are the easiest people in the world to get engaged in a spiritual conversation.

They want to talk about spiritual things. So if you're used to having to trip somebody to get them to talk to you about spiritual things because they're a secularist, that's not the situation.

What keeps most Christians from having meaningful conversations with their Muslim neighbors and friends is fear.

They're just simply afraid of two things. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing and causing offense.

Or they are afraid because they're a Muslim and they're afraid of what they've seen on television and they don't understand jihad and it's frequently a combination of those two things.

And the most important people in the world for reaching

Muslims are going to be Christians who know their faith and who have prayed,

Lord, use me to be your instrument of introducing Jesus to a people who have been given a false understanding of who

Jesus is. Because a Muslim will tell you that they are a member of the second largest religion in the world that teaches people to love

Jesus. And that normally catches the Christian completely off guard. But it's obviously, the difference is what we believe about Jesus is fundamentally different and most

Muslims recognize that you can't put those two beliefs together.

Now there are westernized Muslims who start becoming somewhat secularized and try to come up with ways of compromise, but the vast majority of Muslims...

Well, the first thing you've got to find out is, is this person first, second, third generation? Where do their parents come from?

Where do their grandparents come from? Are they long -term Americans? Are they short -term? I don't know.

I know Chris will remember this because I still have... It's one of the video clips that I play in my presentations, but I remember a debate in 1998 or 1999, the first debate

I did with Hamza Abdul -Malik there on Long Island. And when the camera swung back to get the audience questions, there's this long line of Muslims standing there.

And I was not prepared. That was the first time I ever engaged a Muslim. I had not yet studied Islam. I was just simply defending the

Trinity. And I really was not prepared for the mindset of the people asking the questions.

And the vast majority of the people asking the questions were first or second generation immigrants. And so I had to...

I really learned more later that most of these folks had never heard a meaningful

Christian answer to the questions that they were asking. But the questions just seemed so strange to me that most

Christians would just go, well, that's a dumb thing to ask or something like that. And that's not going to cut it.

You have to recognize that especially those people who have come from a Muslim country, they've probably not encountered almost anyone who has any knowledge of what's in the

New Testament at all. And so the questions that they're asking would seem to us to be just so strange, come straight from a position of ignorance.

And so we have to be patient. We have to pray for clarity of expression.

We can't depend upon our use of Christianese, which is one of our biggest problems, to be honest with you, is we are so accustomed to having our own vocabulary.

Our buzzwords. Yeah. Hey, we're going to continue this. My name is Bill Shishko. I'm the pastor of the

Haven, a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church here on Long Island. And East is meeting

West today as Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, located in Phoenix, Arizona.

We're meeting, and what we're doing together is encouraging you to give financial support right now to our friend

Chris Arnson, who gives us his labor of love five days a week, the production of Iron Sharpens Iron.

So here's how you can help. First, check the website, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and see all the resources that are available there.

And then you'll notice the Donate button. Right now, please donate to the end -of -the -year gift.

If you give monthly, that's even better. And another way you can help is in just a moment, you'll hear advertisements.

This is a commercial radio program, and these sponsors are helping Chris make his way in the world.

And one of the ways you can help Chris is by, along with giving your donation, listening to these ads, and supporting these sponsors.

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Bill Shishko here with you. I'm not Chris Arnzen. My good friend James White and I have taken the program today with Chris's permission so that we can encourage you to encourage our brother and his labors.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is truly a faith -based ministry. Chris is dependent upon sponsors like those that you just heard.

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I especially encourage you to subscribe to World Magazine. Excellent way to do it.

Dr. White was referring to in the last segment being understanding what's going on in the world today like the sons of Issachar who understood the times, what the people of God ought to do.

Anyway, Dr. White and I are encouraging you to support Chris Arnzen and to support

Iron Sharpens Radio. Very easy to do. Just look up Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Google it, and that will bring up the fascinating website. You'll see the button for support, and there you can give by your credit card if you like or there's also the address.

I won't bore you with that again in this hour, but you can also send a check if you prefer to do that and not have a fee taken off of your credit card.

Just so you know, Chris Arnzen's program has been used of the Lord for so many people. I won't have time to go over all the testimonials, but one that came in from Mr.

Graham Dugas. Graham is the heads -up project called the Bonson Project that very much like Dr.

White's apologetics ministry is promoting the works of the late

Dr. Greg Bonson that are now being put on the Internet and will be available for free fine material to help you defending the faith biblically.

But our brother Graham wrote Iron Sharpens Iron covers things that matter to me.

I love the emphasis on young earth creation, a literal Adam, sin, death, a literal

Christ who's resurrected, ascended, and is presently reigning at the right hand of the majesty on high.

I love to hear about apologetics, about being grounded in the historical reformed faith. Great guest.

And not being afraid to address things that are presently leading us into persecution such as weak pulpits, hirelings,

James, this sounds familiar, doesn't it? Cowardice and historical ignorance. It's a great show.

I just donated $50 during the holiday season when money's tight. Keep up the good work and getting great guests.

Sincerely, Graham C. Dugas. Well, Dr. White, this is a short segment. We've got about eight minutes left before another block of commercials.

Keep talking with us about how we can be the best witnesses for Christ dealing with our Muslim friends and neighbors.

Well, first, I've got to ask you, you do have one of Jeffrey Rice's Rebound Bibles now, right?

I have a Rebound Bible. It was done by an organization on Long Island. But I love your ad.

One of those Rebound Bibles. Especially, what's it? What's it? Buttery something or other cow?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Let me tell you something. Jeffrey Rice's Rebinds are more popular than I am when

I was traveling and I would carry one with me. People were much more interested in seeing those than me. Yeah, they are truly an amazing work of art.

And when he did my Nessie Olin text, that really launched things off for him. So I am very thankful that he and Chris hooked up.

I think they might have hooked up initially at the G3 conference or something like that. I don't remember. But I'm glad that they're supporting the program, too.

That's really cool. It's a dying art, too. There's very few people that do it. And this company that we work with.

But I'll support Jeffrey Rice as well. Get your Bibles rebound, folks.

It's well worth the money. Okay, Dr. White. Especially after another 25, 30 years.

It's really, really well done. But anyway, it has been an interesting thing for me to observe, seeking to encourage especially

Reformed believers to have a passionate desire to evangelize

Muslim people. Because there generally is a doctrinal foundation that is present in the vast majority of Reformed preaching and teaching.

And so Reformed believers tend to want to engage in that area, make sure to be accurate in what they're communicating.

And there's the problem. And that is, there's such an ignorance of what Islam believes and what

Islam believes about Christ and things like that. And the reality is if a person just takes a brief amount of time to familiarize themselves, primarily with Sunni Islam, I mean, 85 % of the world's

Muslims are Sunni, and so there's about an 85 % chance you're going to be talking to a Sunni Muslim, not a

Shiite. And really, even on the issues that separate Islam and Christianity, there's not that much of a huge difference between the

Sunnis and the Shias. So even then, you don't have to worry about that too much. But the issues that do separate us are things that most believers should be familiar with and should be able to give an answer to, if they would just simply know what it is that Muslims have been taught.

But so many of us, if we're just honest, our knowledge of Islamic theology primarily comes from Fox News or something, and that's not a reliable source to really understand what

Muslims believe. And in my experience, about the same percentage of Christians have read the

Quran as Muslims have read the New Testament, which is a very small percentage, which means generally we're talking right past each other.

We don't really understand, and that means on our side, there's all sorts of misunderstandings about who

Muhammad was or how he functions in the Islamic system of theology.

And it's interesting, I have a Muslim friend who's a well -known Muslim scholar who called me a few years ago, and I felt good that he felt that he could call me, and I'm trying to remember which group it was, but I think he was asking me what the difference between a

Lutheran and a Methodist was. So you could understand the confusion from their side about the many denominations and the differences, and I guess he was asked to speak at some type of interfaith type thing, and he's like,

I'm not sure where these people are going to be coming from. What's the issues here? And of course, that's what we struggle with.

We don't know the difference between the Sunnis and the Shias and all the different groups within the

Sunni branch of Islam and all the differences that they have. All of this results in, we all know that when it comes to witnessing, there's that comment that is made, there's that brief moment when something happens, when you have to make a decision, am

I going to pursue this as a witnessing opportunity? And in my experience, because of fear, because of ignorance, when that opportunity arises, very often

Christians will let it pass because they've been thinking about it too long or they just hesitate too long and then the topic of conversation changes and it doesn't come back again.

And so it doesn't take a huge amount of effort to familiarize yourself sufficiently to be a good witness to the vast majority of Muslim people.

Now, are there Muslim apologists? Of course there are. And guess who the favorite author of Muslim apologists in the

United States is a guy by the name of Dr. Bart Ehrman. Almost every time that I've debated Muslims in the

United States and in the United Kingdom, on the desk of the person

I was debating you would find copies of various of Bart Ehrman's books. And so, sure, they've got issues like that that they can raise and there's issues about the history of the

Bible and all sorts of stuff like that. So yeah, they've got their apologists, but the vast majority of Muslims you're going to be talking to, that's not where they're coming from.

They don't have that kind of a background. They may have heard a few things, but you're not going to have to be dealing with Bart Ehrman -esque type stuff to any super great degree or depth in talking with that person.

And so, take the opportunity. Pray for the opportunity. Take the opportunity. I've got plenty of stuff online helping people to understand what the basic issues are.

And just be ready. And James, give the website where people can get information from Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Yeah, it's aomin .org. A -O -M -I -N .org. Alpha and Omega Ministries have been around now since 1983 is when we started.

And a couple years ago, the number of debates I did, I've done against Muslims past the number of debates

I've done on any other single subject. And so, you'll get to see debates with those apologists as well as debates with Muslims who are not really

Western in their thinking. And that can actually help you in dealing with those Muslims that come from a foreign country and don't think the way that we necessarily think.

I'm Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, Orthodox Presbyterian Congregation here on Long Island.

And we are taking the place of Craig, who is actually irreplaceable, but we are filling in for Chris Arndt today.

And we're urging you to give an end -of -the -year gift and even sign up so you can give monthly to help our brother in this wonderful, unique, faith -based ministry,

Iron Sharpens Iron. We're going to have a block of advertisements in a moment. We want you to listen with one ear and support the sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron, but also look up the

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Chris Arndt, in an Iron Sharpens Iron radio. Dr. White mentioned Bart Ehrman, and those of you who heard of him and wondered what this man teaches, when we get back from this block of ads, we'll learn a little bit more about that.

But we'll listen in and we'll be back with you shortly. Iron Sharpens Iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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Chris and I had any number of recordings at that little studio WNYG New York Gold is what it stood for 1440

AM radio located in Babylon, New York that started in 2005 he broadcast from there until 2011 and then he relaunched the program after he relocated to his present location in Carlisle, Pennsylvania in 2015 this is a live streamed program and it also airs on Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida 90 .1

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I want to get back to Dr. James White a little bit more about speaking with Muslims but this is from Mary who is writing to us from across excuse me, across the pond in Cork, Ireland she said,

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Mary in Cork, Ireland a clear gospel message on Chris's program and Chris Christ is always exalted

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Grady Adams in Asheboro, North Carolina Bill Shishko here with you since everyone else is giving websites,

I'm pastor of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church just look up the Haven LI .com

the Haven LI .com you'll find out a little bit more about our ministry currently meeting in Bohemia, New York and then from almost the whole other side of the

United States in Arizona Dr. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries Dr.

White we've spoken a little bit about dealing with Muslims, you mentioned Bart Ehrman before we get to him give to people maybe the top three doctrinal differences between Biblical Christianity and Islam well that's an interesting way of putting it because generally what

I do in my presentations is I give the three biggest barriers to the presentation of the

Gospel to Muslims, I think it might be a little bit more useful to folks and specifically those would be the fact that in Islam you have something called shirk, shirk is the unforgivable sin and when we say unforgivable sin we think of a sin you commit once in life and you can never be forgiven of it in Islam it is a sin that cannot be forgiven post -mortem there is a forgiveness of sin after death in Islam but there is one sin that cannot be forgiven, that's shirk and shirk is dying as an idolater and the central affirmation in Islam is called

Tawhid, the oneness of Allah and so most Muslims believe that we as Christians violate

Tawhid with the doctrine of the Trinity and the worship of Jesus and therefore we're Mushrikun we are committers of shirk and so when you are witnessing to a

Muslim one of the great barriers is they understand you to be inviting them to commit the one sin that in Islamic theology can never be forgiven and that obviously is a huge barrier in their minds so we have to be very clear in our presentation of who

Christ is that he's not a creature that we are joining to the worship of the one true

God he's eternally been God, God is triune that's why so many of the debates we have with Muslims around that subject the second barrier is the fact that there's one verse in the

Quran surah 4, verse 127 that denies that the crucifixion took place in history and so if you don't have the crucifixion, you don't have the burial, you don't have the resurrection, you don't have the entirety of the gospel in essence and so that does put the

Muslim in an unusual position, even Bart Ehrman would say that Jesus existed and was crucified so even the hyper -skeptics believe that but the

Muslim does not in general believe that there are some variations of that depending on which

Muslim group you're dealing with but if there's no crucifixion then there's no resurrection and gospel message and then since 1864 anyways,

I won't take the time to explain why that date is significant but for the past 160 years or so Muslims in general have believed the

Bible to be corrupted there was a book published at that time that drew upon German skepticism and has been very influential amongst

Muslims around the world in convincing them that the Bible has been fundamentally altered and changed and therefore you have to deal with all of the issues that arise with alleged historical contradictions and everything else the irony though is that the author of the

Quran I think very clearly did not believe that and I think you demonstrate that the

Quran of course being written 600 years after the birth of Christ and hence long after the compilation canonization of the

New Testament etc etc and so there are references, though not clear references in the

Quran to the Torah and the Bible which we would identify as the Old and New Testaments though I don't think you can prove that the author of the

Quran had any idea what was actually contained in the Old and New Testaments so that raises obviously if God the author of the

Quran he would have known those things but the author of the Quran did not know those things so that raises those issues so those are your three big barriers to really reaching the

Muslims alright and I just want to remind our listeners as well Alpha and Omega Ministries you can

Google that in and Dr. White has loads of helps there especially through his many debates with Muslims.

Dr. White we mentioned Bart Ehrman and as I mentioned to you in preparing for the program one of the inmates that we work with, his brother, has been infected by Bart Ehrman tell us a little bit about him and his teachings and what to watch for well

Bart Ehrman is probably the leading English speaking critic of Christianity in the world today he is a graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary he was the last doctoral student that Bruce Metzger had there at Princeton and he's also a graduate of Moody Bible Institute and College and so he is in the clearly technical sense of the term apostate he once made a profession of faith he does not make a profession any longer so that's the very meaning of the word apostasy and Bart Ehrman is a very bright fellow he is a pretty decent debater and in general when it comes to factual citations of data

Bart Ehrman tends to be very much on target it is the interpretation and application of that data that is the real issue and he's very good at not allowing himself to really get nailed down to those types of foundational issues he he is a very bright fellow

I debated him once I would love to debate him again but he's very costly and I'm not sure that he would have any desire of debating me again because very strangely if you watch and there are numerous videos out there you can watch where he interacts with various Christian scholars the

I'm not sure what to call it but the poison of academia is clearly seen in the sense that many of these

Christian scholars just roll over and desire to be viewed in a positive light by Bart Ehrman and I think that's why he didn't particularly enjoy our debate is that I challenged him along those lines and I wasn't trying to maintain my membership in the big boys club or anything else which he sort of has control over and so it's sad to observe and don't take me wrong there have been folks like Michael Kruger at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte that have done

Yeoman's work in providing the necessary foundational refutations of the claims that Bart Ehrman makes in regards to the history of the scriptures and things like that but I think people need to understand you have

Bart Ehrman's scholarly work and then you have Bart Ehrman's popular work and the two are not necessarily saying the same thing so people who read just his popular works come to the conclusion that what he's saying is the

Bible has been hopelessly muddled and we can't have any idea of what it originally said whereas if you read just his scholarly works he pretty much says that we know what the

New Testament originally said there are relatively few textual variants and we'll probably never actually decide all of those but they don't really change the meaning of almost anything anyways and so it just doesn't really matter so how do you come to two completely different conclusions

I think is explainable by the fact that if you follow the trajectory of the topics of the popular books that Bart Ehrman has written starting with misquoting

Jesus and then Jesus interrupted and his book on forgery you just follow the progression it is very clear to me that he is laying out a fundamental apologetic in defense of his own apostasy and you're not allowed to mention that by the way even within Christian scholarship you are not allowed to mention the fact that you're dealing with apostate with someone who made a profession of faith

I think it's so obviously relevant it so clearly impacts the thinking process of what he will allow to be viewed as data as fact as evidence it's so plain but in the academy you're not allowed to do that that's just not allowed

James can you explain that a little bit more for people as to what you mean by that as a profound point you're making but develop it a little bit more well the academy the academy and Bart Ehrman is a very good example of this the academy begins with the assumption of it's own self sufficiency and the bible's insufficiency so it's a very naturalistic place and it's a very self centered place man's mind is truly capable of accomplishing everything it says itself to so there is an arrogance in the academy that should be something that the christian academy is always very very much fighting against but I'm afraid it affects the christian academy as well and so what is the idea that an individual like Bart Ehrman might have a deep seated bias and purpose in what he is doing that flows directly from his own personal experience and here's a man who made profession of faith

I know some people who knew him at Moody Bible Institute he claims he had a crisis of faith that was based primarily upon theodicy the idea of the existence of evil that's what he claimed anyways in a debate on that subject but that led to his fundamental abandonment of the authority of scripture that took some period of time but he's narrated that as well that act of leaving a faith you once professed

I certainly have met many an individual who's in the entirety of the rest of their life was not only influenced by but really shaped by that act of apostasy and when you follow the topics of the books he's written he's laying out an apologetic where you basically are attacking every single aspect of the transmission of the text of scripture very thoroughly so you attack whether we still have what was originally written then you attack the authors then you attack their memories you attack the books as if they're written by people who were making up their names that actually weren't eyewitnesses he's just going all the way down the line dealing with memory and everything to provide a reason to be a skeptic to not accept what the bible has to say about anything and that's what he's doing and the sad thing is his disciples in colleges and universities across the english speaking generally do not check out what he says

Dr. White let me ask you a question I'll play devil's advocate for a moment why have you not abandoned your faith in the gospels and in the bible as the word of god why are you not a skeptic?

well in dealing with the arguments that people like Bart Ehrman make there's obviously two aspects to it the one aspect that he won't address and I can go into a specific personal experience on this the one aspect that he won't address is the spiritual aspect he does not believe that's a valid thing to even raise or even admit that it's there despite the fact that it's central to an understanding of the scriptures own self understanding and the history of christian belief but the more you dig into the skeptical argumentation the more you discover it's self -defeating nature skeptics like Bart Ehrman are rarely willing to engage in questions of epistemology and the coherence of a world view and why they believe the things that they do believe and whether they can justify those beliefs and all the issues of apologetics that we get into it and Bart Ehrman generally avoids that stuff he generally wants to stick to historical issues rather than can he as an agnostic come up with a meaningful theodicy or epistemology or anything like that and so when you really dig into the historical argumentation you discover that when you use a consistent historiography the bible vindicates itself very very strongly and what you have in Bart Ehrman's primarily in Bart Ehrman's disciples not so much in Bart Ehrman is an anachronistic reading back into the ancient world of a modernistic understanding of how you could know that historical events took place in other words it's real easy to get a 24 year old today to be skeptical about the bible because we don't have any mp3 recordings of Jesus saying the words that Jesus said but of course you don't have mp3 recordings of anything prior to well when the dividing line first became a webcast it was on something called real audio we didn't even have mp3 then so you don't have any mp3 recordings of anything more than 20 years ago at least that were recorded directly in that format but a lot of young people don't, they are so accustomed to the modern standards of data recording and just massive amounts of information that if they were to apply the standards that they themselves are using on the bible to anything else in history they'd have to admit we don't know anything past about 50 to 100 years ago at the most so we have to be completely skeptical about anything that took place before that but they aren't that way they realize they can't be that way obviously there was history and so the inconsistency of the unbelieving approach to history really strikes me as something that the modern man needs to deal with but is rarely being challenged to actually think through and recognize and gain self -contradictory something called the arrogance of the modern is that debate that you did with Bart Ehrman available through Alpha and Omega Ministries?

it's on YouTube it's available to anybody it's freely available that was in 2009 and there have been a number of debates that he's done since then, it's ironic to me he continues to use the exact same presentation in fact when

I debated him he used a powerpoint presentation that continued to have the same misspelled words in it that he had used a year earlier in a debate with Dan Wallace so what that demonstrates to me is that Bart doesn't listen to the other side and he doesn't really think we have anything to say and so he doesn't feel any need to be updating things or improving his arguments and that really is exactly where he's coming from it's a sad reality but that's the way it is my guest, co -host

Dr. James White myself, Bill Shishko and we're helping out our brother

Chris Lawrenson today, urging you to give generously at the end of the year to help support this faith -based ministry,

Iron Sharpens Iron, the brainchild of our brother Chris Lawrenson if you'll go to Iron Sharpens Iron radio and note the support button, you can either give through Tithe .ly

or you can get the address to where you can send a check, but please do that, that's part of the purpose of this program, but we have a lot more to do before the program's done in about 28 minutes and that will recommence after this block of messages

Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music and His infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious.

Such is the beauty of His design, knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in His design.

Thank you. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

Bill Shishko here with you, trying to replace the irreplaceable Chris Arnzen on today's edition of Iron Sharpens Iron, and my guest with me today is my good friend

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. You'll hear a little bit more about that. Here's the reason we're doing this.

Chris Arnzen, Iron Sharpens Iron is the labor of love of a man who not only loves the

Lord Jesus Christ and wants to be faithful to Him, but wants to help individuals and churches stand firmly in a day, as Dr.

White mentioned in a previous segment, a day of just almost unbelievable apostasy and very rapid apostasy and very widespread apostasy.

And so the very commitment of this program to be light in the midst of darkness and a good couple of hours full of truth in the midst of so much errors means that for those of us who love that truth and who love the

Lord who is the truth, we should be putting our money where our hearts are in helping out

Iron Sharpens Iron. And so that's why Dr. White and I are taking the program today to not only chat with you about topics on our minds that we hope will be helpful to you, but also to encourage you to Google in Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and find out more about Chris Arnzen and the program, but especially to note the support button where you can get the address to send a check or where you can give a one -time gift or preferably a recurring gift by way of tithing so that we can keep this program on the air.

And it has been so moving. If you have your testimonials to the

Iron Sharpens Iron program, you can send them to Chris Arnzen, that's all one word,

C -H -R -I -S, Chris Arnzen, A -R -N as in no, Z -E -N as in no,

Chris Arnzen, at gmail .com. And give us just your first name, your city, your state, or if you're writing from outside of the

United States, as our sister Mary did from Cork, Ireland, let us know the country. But so many moving testimonials to the power of the usefulness of this program.

George Jensen, who is the lead pastor of Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, asked, what does

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio mean? And he says, to me, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio means clarity.

The subject matter presented on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is direct, clear, and relevant.

This is personal to me in the area of Roman Catholicism. Several years back,

Roman Catholic apologists were attempting to get me to convert to the Roman Catholic religion.

Although I never bought into all of their arguments, I went through a very confusing theological wilderness for about two years.

After much prayer and study, God led me to the truth of the matter. The Roman Catholic religion was definitely not, for me, of the many resources and people that God used to lead me to the truth on this matter.

I'm happy to include Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and Chris Arnzen. God used

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to help bring clarity to me on this matter.

A powerful testimony of George C. Jensen, lead pastor of Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

And then a very dear friend, Judy Rogers. Our children cut their teeth on Judy's music.

And a wonderful thing for parents and grandparents to give to children and grandchildren.

But Judy writes, in the day of fake news, both in the media and superficial religiosity,

Chris Arnzen continues to proclaim comprehensive Christianity with clarity and power.

I encourage you strongly to listen to and support this very critically important ministry.

A rare jewel in this needy world, writes Judy Rogers, a Virginia Christian recording artist.

And then also, just appreciate this that came in from John Harris. Chris has not been afraid to take on the very delicate topic of social justice and how that relates to the way

Christians should look at social issues. John Harris, who is the author of the very helpful book,

Social Justice Goes to Church, The New Left in American Evangelicalism.

John Harris writes, I'm grateful for Chris Arnzen's commitment to biblical truth, willingness to ask hard questions, and prioritization of issues that truly do matter.

Chris doesn't chase headlines in order to grow his platform. He provides content that he believes will help the average

Christian as they confront the challenges of life, whether theological or social.

That's from John Harris, author of Social Justice Goes to Church, The New Left in American Evangelicalism.

So let's take a little bit of time in the few minutes that we have left. Dr. White, you and Chris Arnzen and I go way back.

Any anecdotes about Chris Arnzen? You can probably take the next 15 minutes with him.

It's funny, I was sitting here going, you know, if I wasn't a Reformed Baptist and you weren't

OPC, if you were Pentecostal and I was some wild -eyed Wesley Arminian, we would have spent this entire two hours telling

Chris Arnzen stories. Much to his chagrin, I'm sure. In fact, when you said you couldn't fill in for Chris Arnzen, I said that's because you can't sing parody songs with nearly the adept capacity as Chris Arnzen.

If I recall correctly, he's the one that arranged my first visit to you at Franklin Square at that time.

And then after the service, we went to your house for a

Sunday afternoon lunch. And if I recall correctly, I think I might have even gotten a nap that Sunday afternoon.

Yes, a Presbyterian Sabbath nap. Well, that's called a bath and nap,

I'm sorry. We already have that one trademarked and stuff like that.

Oh yes, it was that infamous phone call that Chris likes to tell people about where he had been challenged to find someone to debate

Jerry Matatix. And he had asked Bill Webster, and Bill Webster said the guy you need to get is a guy named

James White. Well, at the time, nobody really knew who in the world I was. This was many, many years ago.

And being the consummate salesperson that Chris was, he tracked down my phone number.

And we had just changed my phone number. And so we had changed it because we were getting calls from people we didn't want to get calls from.

And so the phone rings, and I pick it up, and hi, my name is Chris Arnzen with WMCA Radio in New York City.

And he goes on and on and on for a while, and then he finally takes a breath. And the first thing

I said to him was, how did you get this number? It was not an auspicious start, to be sure.

And even when we did arrange that first debate on the Marian dogmas with Jerry Matatix on Long Island, I remember the first time

Chris picked me up and he takes me to this hotel that we never used again. And then we went to the

Coral House, actually to a diner in Baldwin somewhere. We're sitting across from each other, and I started telling

Chris, I said, well, I don't know, I think Jerry's probably going to show up a little late, and he's going to rush in, and he's going to say something along the lines of, you know, we just moved, and all my books are packed up, and I've only had a chance to scribble a few notes on a yellow pad, and I haven't had a chance to eat, and all

I've had to drink is a Diet Coke. And Chris is sitting across the table looking at me going, what?

He's had this strange look, and I could tell Chris was very nervous. He had put his own money into putting this all together and stuff like that.

So the debate starts. Jerry gets there just a few minutes before we're supposed to start. He comes rushing in.

He sits down. He gets up to make his opening statement, and he says, you know, all my books are packed away, and I rushed to get here, and I've only scribbled a few notes on a yellow pad, and all

I've had to eat is a Diet Coke, and I can see Chris's face this day in the back of the room looking at me like, he's a prophet!

So, yes, there are things that I know about Chris Arntgen which we will not be discussing on Arntgen's Insider.

I remember that debate at the Coral House. The place was packed out.

Oh, it was? Yeah, that was the first one, wasn't it? That goes way back. And then,

I don't know, somewhere along the line, Chris had to get to the bottom of the barrel, and he tapped me to moderate the debate, and thankfully he did survive my gaveling.

But for years we did that, and I think one of the things, Dr. White, that you and I learned is we had questions from the people who were there, and we learned that New Yorkers do not know how to ask questions.

You're the one that started saying, when you introduced the question and answer period, now a question has a question mark at the end.

That's the little squiggly thing with the dot below it. Because, yeah, New Yorkers want to get up there, and they think they should have been the people doing the debate in the first place.

What were these guys up there doing this for? This is a New Yorker for you. And your thing about Chris on parodies,

I hope he'll do this sometime on Iron Sharpens Iron when it fits. But his Martin Luther imitations, although we don't know exactly what

Luther sounded like, but I can't imagine a Luther didn't sound like Chris Arnzen sounds like when he is doing

Luther, but those are classics. They are classics. I saw the original performance of Party Hardy Marty Luther, and I actually saw the first time that he did it.

So I'm one of the few people that can say that we were there. And Luther, I can assure you, having recently reviewed some of his back and forth with Thomas More, Luther would have loved the impersonation.

He really would have. I believe so. He would have allowed Chris to live. He wouldn't have had him kicked out of Wittenberg. I should add, in all this, of course,

Dr. James White would be what's called a Reformed Baptist, and I'm a Presbyterian.

But that's an important statement, because in our culture today where the issue is the truth of the

Word of God and, frankly, what the Gospel is and what it's not, those of us who hold to the historic

Christian faith that's also called the Reformed faith, either in a Baptistic expression or a

Presbyterian expression, it's very important that we have a united voice on the essentials of the faith over against the onslaught of error.

And there's where our dear brother Chris Arntzen's program has been so helpful. He doesn't draw the lines denominationally.

He has people from various doctrinal or various denominational backgrounds, but all that have a clear commitment to the final authority of the

Word of God. That's why, brothers and sisters, it's so important that we support

Iron Sharpens Iron. You can do that by going to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and looking at the

Support button. If you prefer to send a check, you can send a check at the address that's given there.

Otherwise, you can give through Tithely, and I urge you, please, if you can give on a monthly basis, that would be an even better thing.

Dr. White, thanks so much for your time today. Take a few minutes to tell us a little more about Alpha and Omega Ministries, what you do, and hopefully what you'll be doing in the year ahead once we all get our shots and we can travel again to do our various ministries.

Well, I'm actually not going to be doing that. I would like to have five years of safety data, thank you very much, as you would with any other vaccine, but be that as it may, planning for the future is very much a challenge right now, but we intend to be doing a lot more in the way of debating, and, of course, you've gone from a long -named church to a short -named church, as have

I. I'm one of the pastors at Apologia Church in Mesa, and so that certainly keeps me busy.

In fact, just in a few minutes, I'm at one of our members' homes right now. I'm going to be running downstairs and setting up telescopes for a big get -together we have tonight so we can see the conjunction of the planets before some seasonal festivities, shall we say.

And so, you know, I've got that aspect of my work as well, but I don't expect that we're going to be lacking in any opportunities to give a defense to the faith.

I have a very strong feeling that, especially when it comes to affirming humanity as made in the image of God and biblical teaching concerning what reconciliation actually means, what the cross actually accomplished, we're going to be called upon,

I think all of us are going to be called upon, to stand faithfully for confessional

Christianity and a biblical understanding of those things, and I think that that's going to include all of us in all of our associational and denominational expressions and alignments.

It doesn't matter how conservative our past has been. It seems like there is a move to a very strong leftward direction on many, many very important issues, including the form and structure of the

Church, gender roles within the Church, what the nature of the Gospel truly is.

We cannot allow a neo -Tarwinian worldview to reform the language of our confessions, for example, to turn them into meaning things that the original authors never intended them to mean.

And so it's going to be a challenging time, and I certainly, as a grandfather now, am very focused upon passing the faith along to that next generation that is going to be facing so many more challenges than we did from an external perspective.

I mean, our lifetimes, the government was not something that we were really worried about, as far as the expression of our faith was concerned.

But my grandchildren will be facing constant pressure to, well, offer a pinch of incense to Caesar, to use a

Church history analogy. They are going to be under constant pressure to do that, and so we need to give them a strong foundation.

Yeah, thank you, Dr. White. And one of the things that has really impressed me is

I've seen more and more of the encroaching of the state on the Church and dictating against what our forefathers called the

Crown Rights of King Jesus. But it was a line that says basically this, because the early

Christians knew that Jesus was the Lord. They also knew that Caesar was not.

And to me, that epitomizes what our stand needs to be in this day, vis -a -vis the

Church and the state. One question about your celestial observations tonight.

Refractor or reflector telescope? Oh, no. One is a

Dobsonian, so it's a reflector, and that's my 6 -inch. And my 8 -inch is that fancy Russian type that's not even a

Dobsonian. It's really high -quality stuff. I forget the specific Russian name right now.

But it's fully computerized, super high optics. It's quite a nice unit.

There's no two ways about it. It'll do a good job. Dr. White, I'm glad that you've got clear skies to see the conjunction of the two planets.

We've still got gray skies here, but maybe tomorrow night for us. Thanks so much. Dr. White, please give us the name of your organization and the website one more time.

Yeah, Alpha Omega Ministries, A -O -M -I -N, AOMIN .org is our website.

And we do a webcast two or three times a week, depending, called The Dividing Line. And we'll be doing one of those tomorrow, in fact.

Happy stargazing and planet gazing. Thanks, Dr. White. All right, thank you. All right,

God bless. Bill Shishko here with you. We're wrapping things up in the fundraising program for Iron Sharpens Iron.

We are thankful to the Lord for our brother, Chris Arnzen. We know that you are. Please show your love and appreciation for Chris and for the program we esteem so highly,

Iron Sharpens Iron. Go to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and you'll see the support button.

Of course, there's a lot more you can get. The podcast, you'll find a bit more about the program. Just reading the testimonials from men like Dr.

White and John MacArthur encourages you about the worth of that program. And please give a generous end -of -the -year gift.

We want Iron Sharpens Iron to stay on the air. Thankfully, it has a broadcast presence as an

Internet program that is not threatened by an establishment that is no friend of biblical

Christianity. And so we want to keep that presence. We want to expand that presence.

And you can do that by your generous giving right now. Again, it's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And learn about the program and especially support either by way of a check to the address that's given there or by way of a donation that you can give by your credit card, hopefully on a monthly basis.

My name is Bill Shishko. I have the privilege of being a pastor of The Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church, currently meeting at 906

Church Street in the facility of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Bohemia. So if you live in Suffolk County, you don't have a faithful local church, we'd love to have you join us for worship at 1 o 'clock p .m.,

906 Church Street in Bohemia. And it will be a pleasure to meet you and get to know more of those who so profit from Iron Sharpens Iron.

Well, Chris Arnzen has always ended his program in a way that I love and I can't improve upon it as we wrap up the program today with thanks for your time with us.

Remember, all those of you who are listening, the Lord Jesus Christ is a far, far greater and more powerful