August 13, 2019 Show with Dr. Tony Costa & Sule Prince on “Why Is Apologetics Necessary?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 13th day of August 2019.

We've got two guests on together today, and I'm delighted to have both of these guests back on the program.

First, we have my very dear friend, Dr. Tony Costa, who is Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and joining him today is

Sule Prince, Senior Pastor of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

And today, both of these guests will be discussing why is apologetics necessary? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome

Dr. Tony Costa and Pastor Sule Prince back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Greetings, brothers.

Greetings, Chris. I'm with you. Why don't we first, very briefly,

Dr. Costa, tell our listeners about Toronto Baptist Seminary for those of our listeners who have not yet heard you on the program before.

Sure. Toronto Baptist Seminary is a Reformed Baptist Seminary in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

It was started in the 1930s by Dr. T .T. Shields, who was also the pastor of Jarvis Street Baptist Church, a very well -known and historic

Baptist church in Toronto. And we train men and women for missions, we train men and women for the ministry, we offer both bachelor degrees, undergraduate, and also

MDivs and THM degrees as well for those in the graduate level. And so we teach various topics, ranging from systematic theology to Old Testament and New Testament survey, to apologetics, to comparable religions, and social ethics, and so forth.

And we are privately funded, we're not funded by the government, so that gives us a lot of leeway in terms of remaining independent of any government assistance, and therefore not compromising the precious truths of the

Gospel. And you serve as professor of apologetics and Islam there, and that has a lot to do with our topic today, why is apologetics necessary?

Right. And we have also, as I said earlier, Pastor Sule Prince, who is senior pastor of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

And Pastor Sule, if you could let our listeners know something about Oakwood Wesleyan Church. Yes, well

Oakwood Wesleyan Church has been around, next year it's going to be 85 years. Currently right now it's mainly a

West Indian church. Dr. Costa is with me, he's our teaching pastor, so he preaches on Sunday mornings, and he also we host courses in apologetics, apologetical issues, and he's the main teacher for those courses as well.

So we're just trying to bring our church further in the knowledge of apologetics and spirituality and Christianity.

Amen. And one thing that may surprise our listeners who don't already know this, is that although you are pastoring a

Wesleyan church, which is predominantly historically Arminian in its theological and soteriological understanding and convictions, both you and Dr.

Tony Costa are theologically reformed Baptists. Yeah. So that's an interesting story.

Yeah, if Ripley's Believer or Not was still on, we would be on that show. So, two reformed pastors pastoring a

Wesleyan church. Well, I know that we went into the history behind how that all happened before, but perhaps another time we'll readdress that.

You two, one of the reasons why we're addressing apologetics today is that you two are doing some kind of a apologetics ministry there at Oakwood Wesleyan Church, and I believe it is available on the internet, but tell us more about what you are doing.

Okay, maybe I can start and then Pastor Soule can supplement that. We have been running classes out of Oakwood Wesleyan Church on Sunday afternoons, except for the summer months.

We run them for about eight weeks a session. Sometimes we run shorter ones at four weeks a session, and our passion and vision,

Chris, is to educate the Church in theology, give them solid

Biblical teaching. We have people who not just join us physically in Toronto in the

Church, we also have people who join us through the internet around the world on Zoom.

We've had people across the United States, we've had people as far away as the UK and Malaysia, and of course across Canada.

And what we do is we teach Christians the importance of knowing why they believe what they believe.

We teach them on how to defend their faith, we give them some solid theological training.

This fall we're beginning a series, an eight -week course on the attributes of God, and we just finished a course on the cults before the summer.

We did one on angels and demons, we did one on the Trinity, so we do get a lot of students, a lot of folks, and by students

I mean anyone. We're not offering degrees, obviously, at least not at this point, but we do have folks in their senior years, middle -aged, young adults with children and so forth, even new believers in Christ who've also been attending this.

So we've always had a passion and a vision to utilize this ministry to reach out to the body of Christ at large around the world, and we have had positive feedback on this, and so we just feel that this is one of the ways the

Lord is directing us to edify the saints and train them. And I would add to that to say the need for apologetics is very crucial.

When you look at some of the seminaries and Bible colleges, apologetics may be just an introduction course, and that's as far as it's going to go.

We are trying to offer a little bit more on the topics that we are dealing with to equip people to deal with the questions that are being asked in this world.

I don't think that we've hosted one course in which you could not engage somebody, an unbeliever on the street with.

Fully equipping the church, people who are interested in apologetics so they could properly do stuff like evangelism.

They could talk to their parents, their children who may be skeptical, and they could read them through the

Bible and present a clear, concise, apologetic for the

Scriptures. Great. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address right now. It is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Dr.

Tony Costa, before we find out why apologetics is necessary, can you please define apologetics?

Iron Trip and Zion Radio very frequently hears from listeners in the audience who are very new believers, and sometimes they're even folks from outside of Christianity altogether, and they may be unfamiliar with this term apologetics.

Please define it for us. Yeah, let me first say what it is not. It is not the ministry of apologizing in Jesus' name.

We're not in the business of saying, okay, this is how you apologize for the bad things the church did in the past.

Apologetics is basically the area and the discipline of learning how to give answers or give reasons for the faith that you believe in.

And the word apologetics comes from the Greek New Testament. It is used by Peter in 1

Peter 3 .15. Peter says always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks of you.

And that word answer there is the word apologia in Greek. Paul says in Philippians 1 .16

that I'm in chains here for the defense for the apologia of the gospel. And so an apologia from where we get the word apology means it's a legal term that was used in the courts in the

Greco -Roman world, and it means to give a reason, to give an account, to give a response, to give an answer for your case.

And so we emphasize that the teaching of the gospel has to be garnished with the defense of the gospel, knowing why you believe the gospel is true, why you believe

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, why you believe he rose bodily from the grave. These are burning questions that have been asked and continue to be asked.

And I think that one of the greatest lamentable situations in our churches today is that we are raising up a generation of people who just don't know how to articulate their faith, and they don't know how to defend it, whether it be against the

Muslims, against the secular humanists, or against the cultural Marxists, or against anyone who comes with queries against the

Christian faith. And so apologetics is basically that, learning why you believe what you believe, and how to articulate it, and how to give it a good defense for the reasons why you believe it.

Yeah, you were talking about how apologetics is not about saying you're sorry for the horrible things that Christianity allegedly is guilty of.

Not that Christians don't sin, of course, but there is a lot of stuff that is laid at the feet of Christianity in general, genuine

Christianity, that does not deserve the accusations it gets.

There are specific people who do, because we all sin, and so on.

But it reminds me of an interview I did a long time ago with Dr.

J. Adams on his book, From Forgiven to Forgiving, and he hated the term,

I apologize when people are guilty of sinning against someone else.

He basically was saying that that is giving a defense for what you did.

And it usually is a very quick and easy way for people to think that they are getting out from under the guilt of something.

I apologize. But in his alternative, which he believed, and I agree, is the

Biblical way to respond to our own sinful actions is I have sinned, please forgive me.

Not I apologize, but please forgive me. But that is another topic for another day.

So, I'll let you both answer this question, and perhaps we could start with Dr.

or Pastor, I should say, Sule Prince. Why is apologetics necessary?

And perhaps even let us know what you mean by necessary. Obviously people may jump to the wrong conclusions and think that every

Christian has a duty, that they are duty -bound to be trained in apologetics and the original languages of the

Bible. They have to study the cults and false religions. And I am fairly certain this is not what you mean by why is apologetics necessary.

But if you could begin, Pastor Sule Prince. Well, I believe that apologetics, what it does is it explains

Christianity to a modern audience. So, apologetics seeks to unpack the claims of the

Christian faith in light of its historical evidence, and give reasons, as Dr.

Costa quoted in the Scripture, 1 Peter 3, 15, for the hope that is within us.

So for a person to properly, adequately lay out a reasoned claim for what they believe.

You know, nobody steps in an elevator and doesn't believe that it's going to take them up or down. Nobody's going to get on an airplane if it only has one wing.

These are stuff that we don't do. So I kind of believe, like Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living.

And if you stretch that a little bit further, the unexamined belief is not worth believing as well.

So not only does being able to defend your faith or even understand your faith is effective for you outside when you're dealing with people, it's also for your own little skepticism that you have inside you.

There are times that claims are made and we get nervous about it. What does this mean?

What does this mean for a Christian faith if so -and -so says this or this scientist brings out this claim?

It makes many people nervous. But if we have a firm understanding of what we believe and being able to lay out a reasoned claim for what we believe in, this puts us on a further plane and also enables the

Church to not be this you know, I've heard this statement, faith is not a leap into the darkness, it's a leap into the light.

And I agree with that. We are not jumping into the unknown. A lot of the claims that are out there that are made that may scare

Christians, I don't think that's stuff that should scare us.

I mean, there is a lot of research out there that Christians just have to read and train their mind and they'll be able to open up doors for proper conversation to deal with objections to the faith.

And Dr. Costa? Yeah, I totally agree with what Pastor Soule said. I think as well the necessity of apologetics is,

I also speak of it as a spiritual military training. We don't send our young men and women out into the battlefield without any military training.

They need to learn hand -to -hand combat, they need to learn how to use arms in battle and so forth, and we are doing a great disservice in the

Church, because what we're doing is, we're creating a generation of young people who are being sent out into college, into university, post -secondary education, and they are sent out without any training.

They have no spiritual military training. And so when they go out into the colleges, universities, this is the arena of political debate, and also this is the arena of ideas and philosophy.

The battle of the mind takes place in these areas of life, and so when students go over to these colleges and universities and they confront professors who are leftist, professors who are liberal, professors who are jaded against Christianity and make it their aim to discredit the

Christian faith, to discredit the Bible, statistics are showing us in shocking numbers that the majority of young people who go to post -secondary education here in Canada, about 65 -70%, and I'm being very generous with these numbers, 65 -70 % of these young people don't come back to Church.

So something is amiss here, something is wrong here, and the reason for that is that our young people are challenged on, how do you know the

Bible's true? How can we trust the Bible? It has so many contradictions. There's so many textual variants.

Darwinism has disproven the Genesis account, and so forth and so on. So what we're saying here is that,

I'm not saying anything that has not been said by the great thinkers of the Church. The Church Fathers were apologists.

Justin Martyr wrote two apologies against the Roman Emperor. We know that the early

Apostles, the Apostles of the early Church were also apologists. You can't read the Book of Acts without seeing that these were men inspired by the

Holy Spirit who were ready and able to give reasons for their faith. The Reformers, if you read

Calvin, Luther, Knox, even all the way up until the Anabaptists, many of these leaders gave reasons for their faith.

And even William Wilberforce, before he died, he actually was gravely concerned that the

Christian parents were not taking the time to educate their sons and daughters in their most holy faith.

He talks about how these young people end up being tossed to and fro like the waves of the sea, because they're not properly trained in the rudimentary doctrines of their faith.

And we're just seeing it now, aren't we, Chris, with Josh Harris? And now just, I think yesterday, one of the

Hill Songs musicians came out and said he's done with Christianity, and the reason why he claimed that he was walking away from the faith was because he said the tough questions are not being answered.

Well, they are! I mean, if you listen to Iron Jerk and Byron, and to our common friend Dr. White on the

Dividing Line, they will, these tough questions are being answered! But some

Christians, they just feel that Christianity is not doing a good job of being relevant and answering the questions of our contemporary society.

The point is, they are being answered, they just have to find out where. Now, although, as I said earlier, not every

Christian is duty -bound to be trained in the original languages, to be trained in the false beliefs of cults and world religions, but at the same time, every

Christian is duty -bound to be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within them. Absolutely.

And you know, Chris, if you really look at it, it is not hard to access information today.

There are good YouTube channels, like Dr. Garza talks about, Dr. James White, we have videos on the third degree that we answer a lot of questions.

So you can actually sit down in the comfort of your own home and engage your mind in these topics. You don't need to have a

PhD or even trying to obtain one, but there's so much information that is out there that is even done in a simple fashion that could just grow your mind and enable you to engage people in conversation.

And it's not that difficult. I was in my barber shop one day and I was reading a book for a course that I'm taking by Dr.

Brown, Michael Brown, and my barber always knows that I'm always reading.

So he asked me, what's that book you're reading? Well, the book is called Outlasting the

Gay Revolution. So I didn't want to shout that out in front of everybody, so I went up to him. I went up and I showed him the book, and the guy who was sitting in his chair heard what

I said. And he said, so what, Christians cannot be gay? And I said, well, if you're talking about biblical

Christianity, no, we don't believe that a Christian can be gay. In fact, you're not even defined really by your sexuality.

And then he just went on a tirade. He got so mad, this ancient book that you guys are reading, it is garbage, what about slavery, and I don't believe in God.

And I turned to him and I said, well, you don't believe in God, so you don't believe in objective truth.

No, I don't believe in objective truth. So what's the issue with slavery then? You can't say it's right or wrong.

I just looked at his face, and he said, well, you know, it's wrong to the slaves.

Okay, but it's not wrong to the slave owners. Well, it may be wrong to the slaves, but it's not wrong to the slave owners.

So what's the problem? And so he just kept shouting and didn't want to, he tried to shout me down, but these are just little arguments that you can use against people, and you just show them that their arguments or their belief doesn't really hold that much weight.

Yes, and one thing about apologetics, even though, as I said a couple of times here, that not every

Christian is duty -bound to be trained in the original languages and in false religions and so on, if you have family, friends, and loved ones and neighbors who are perhaps involved in a false religion, a cult, or a false religion or cult is very dominant where you live, it would demonstrate your care for those around you, those that you love, by doing research on what they believe.

That when you have a conversation with them on eternal matters, you're just not oblivious to what they believe.

As I said, we who are and I always hate to use the term layman, but I can't think of a better one.

The average Christian is not duty -bound to know about every false religion and every cult, but if it affects your life and it has some significance with your family or where you live, you should go the extra mile to find out more about what those people in false religions are believing.

Am I right? Yeah, you're absolutely right, Chris. I'll take it like another step further.

If you are a Christian that believes in the Great Commission, you are going to want to at least learn a bit of apologetics.

Because if you are interacting with family and friends, uncles and aunties that are not believers, this is when the art of apologetics comes in.

This is when you're able to lay out a claim and we're not, as I said before, we're not talking on a high level where you are doing a dissertation, but a simple argumentation that could have them thinking and could...

And you know, when you engage people apologetically or in evangelism, you want to know more.

They may bring up an objection that you don't know about. So what do you do? You research it. You go ask somebody. You inquire.

And then you slowly start building your reservoir. And your faith starts building so you're able to interact with others a little bit more easily.

All right, Dr. Coffey, you go ahead. Yeah, I was just going to say, I think we should follow the principle that Paul set down in 1

Corinthians 9. I become all things to all people so that I may save them. And so to the Jew, he said,

I become a Jew to those outside of the law. I become as one outside of the law. And he talks about how he relates to his target audience.

And what Paul's not saying is we should compromise our faith. Of course not, but he is saying we ought to be relatable.

We ought to become what they are so that we can reach out to them. So one of my favorite chapters in the

Bible, Acts 17, we're told there that when Paul went to Athens, the first thing he does is he goes to the synagogue.

And so he reaches out to his kinsmen, according to the flesh, to his Jewish kinsmen, and he preaches

Jesus as Messiah. And he quotes from the Tanakh, the Old Testament. And then when they put him out of the synagogue, he goes to the marketplace, and there he reasons with the

Greeks in the marketplace, persuading them. And then he ends up at Mars Hill, at the

Orophagus, where he's challenged by the Stoics and the Epicureans, the philosophers.

And there Paul begins to engage this discussion with these people there at the amphitheater, and he notes how they have an alter to the unknown

God, and he proceeds to tell them, let me tell you who that unknown God is. And then he quotes from their poets, and why does he do that?

Because he is relating to his audience. He is creating common ground so that he can communicate effectively in their language.

So for instance, when I teach my students on Islam, I make them enter into the worldview of Islam.

If you want to reach Muslims for Christ, you need to know what they believe about the world, what they believe about God, about the

Quran, and what do they think the Bible is according to the Quran, how do they view Jesus, and the prophets, and so forth.

And it's important that we know what they believe. Now here's the problem, Chris. The problem is, Christians have enough problems understanding what they believe.

How are they going to deal with other people's beliefs? And so what we'll try to do in these courses, we try to encourage

Christians to know what they believe, and why they believe it, and then they're able to know what other people believe, and reach out to them.

I can't tell you how many times in my debates with Muslims, Muslims would come up to me after the debate and just appreciate the fact that I did my homework, that I wanted to understand what the other side was saying, and they didn't agree with me, but they said, we respect the fact that you cared enough to learn about what we believe.

And so we definitely don't want to, as you said, Chris, and I agree with you 100%, we don't want to come across saying, well, to be an apologist, you need to know

Greek, you need to know Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin, and so forth. We're not saying that at all. There are some who do pursue academic pursuits in this area, but apologetics is for the common

Christian, and all it is is basic understanding of the faith, having some understanding of your neighbor, and doing your best to study the

Word, to show yourself a proof of God, and also to become all things to all people, so that we can see them getting saved.

Yes, and in a broader area, men like you,

Dr. Costa, and James White, and those that are thoroughly trained in the original languages, those that are excelling in their studies of false religions, cults and world religions, they are necessary to the body of Christ, because you have basically, as the centuries go by, and as the years go by, you have the breeding, if you will, of false religions and cults that multiply and multiply, and secular humanist ideology, and postmodernism, and all kinds of anti -Christ philosophies and ideologies and religions that keep developing, and you will have even many masquerading in the name of Jesus Christ who are brilliant, who are trying to convince the multitudes, and are successful, sadly, in convincing multitudes that the doctrines that you and I, that the three of us hold to be precious and invaluable and essential for salvation are either nonsense, or they are should be subjects of mockery and laughter, or they are theologically wrong, you could go on and on depending upon who the anti -Christian is, and these things need to be refuted intelligently and through the

Scriptures. You could easily deceive the average

Christian who does not know the original languages of the Bible, if someone claims to know those languages, and tells you that what you are reading in your

English Bible is wrong, and this is what it really means, so therefore it is invaluable to have men like you who do know these languages, as I said, not that everybody needs to know them, but your existence and the existence of genuinely sound, biblically faithful apologists is an invaluable and priceless gift to the body of Christ.

Well, thank you for that, Chris, and indeed church history I just consider church history a test to that.

I mean, God raised up people like Athanasius to defend the deity of Christ against Arius, and remember these heretics like Arius and Nestorius, well, there's questions about Nestorius, we can discuss that another time, but Marcian, Valentinus, and people like Arius and others,

Pelagius, these were brilliant men. Arius, for example, was a speaker, and he actually taught people doctrine by teaching them various jingles.

And we think of people like Celsus, that Origen mentions in his writings, Celsus was a huge enemy of the

Christian faith, and he did much damage to the faith of many. We're dealing here with very intellectual heretics who have a command of the language, and so it behooves us in the church to understand that God has to raise up Athanasius, he has to raise up an

Augustine against Pelagius, he has to raise up Luther against the Roman Church, and Calvin and the other reformers.

So I think you're absolutely right, Chris, that we need to understand that the other side also has their apologists, and so we do need apologists in the church who will stand up and defend the church and the teachings that Christ has given to her against those who oppose his kingdom.

By the way, is one of those jingles that was used to teach doctrine, I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony?

That's right, that's when Coke was first invented. But I was thinking particularly of the jingle that Arius of Alexander came up with, that there was a time when the

Son was not, that is the Son of God. There was a time when he was not, and therefore the Son of God was created.

So, yeah, I was thinking more along those lines.

By the way, I know that you wanted to say something, Pastor Soule, but we're going to go to our first break, and when we return, you could say what you'd like to say.

I'm going to quickly read a question that you both can answer also when we return.

And this is from somebody from your neck of the woods. His name is Sicaly, which from what

I recall from his previous questions to us is a combination of a

Canadian and a Dutch name, Sicaly. He is from Ponoka, Alberta, Canada, and he asks,

Good afternoon, brothers. I was curious if you include a defense of a young earth creation in your apologetics, and why or why not you do, and its significance or insignificance.

So, you can answer that when we come back from our break. If anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

As always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

It's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be back right after these messages from our sponsors with more of Dr.

Tony Costa and Pastor Sule Prince on why apologetics is necessary.

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This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guests today are Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and also his co -pastor at the

Oakwood Wesleyan Church, Pastor Sule Prince, who is the senior pastor at Oakwood Wesleyan Church of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

We are discussing why is apologetics necessary? Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. As I was asking both of you before the break, and as soon as we ask this question and get your answers, we'll have

Pastor Sule Prince speak about what he was trying to say before the break.

We have Sika Lee in Ponoka, Alberta, Canada asking if you teach and defend a young earth position of creation in your apologetics teachings.

Okay, did you want me to answer that question first? Sure, go ahead. Okay, I'm a convinced young earth creationist and I believe that the earth,

I believe in the literal genesis account, I believe the days mentioned there are literal days, 24 -hour days, and I think the language of genesis demands that, the evening -morning sequence of Genesis 1, and also the pattern that God gave

Israel, that they were to work six days and on the seventh day they were to rest and observe it as the

Sabbath of the Lord. And so I think that shows that the writer of Genesis, who

I believe to be Moses, intended that to be taken literally. I just wanted to make a qualifying statement,

Chris, if I may, that there are many Christians who are brothers and sisters in Christ who do hold two different positions.

There are some that are called old earth creationists or progressive creationists, thinking of people like Dr. Hugh Ross, for example.

While I disagree with these brethren, I still believe that they are true brethren in Christ, and I think that when we deal with the beginning and the ending, there's always somewhat, there seems to be some disagreements when it comes to the end, whether it's a millennial, post -millennial, pre -millennial, whether it is a pre -rapture, a pre -tribulation rapture, mid -tribulation rapture, post -tribulation rapture, and so forth.

There's varying interpretations when we deal with eschatology, the end times, the last things, but equally so, there seems to be differing interpretations when we deal with the beginning.

So, the beginning and end points seem to be the areas where Christians tend to differ on.

They seem to be pretty well agreed on what comes in between. So, I think that a literal reading of Genesis and a young earth creation reading,

I think, is supported by the text. I think that it is the best exegesis that is given to the text when we read it, and how the prophets understood it, how the

Lord Jesus interpreted it, how the apostles interpreted it, and I think the early Church Fathers.

I know Augustine was kind of up in the air about this. Augustine also thought that Genesis 1 and 2, particularly 1, may have been taken to be metaphor, but I think the majority of Christians throughout

Church history have understood Genesis to be literal, and therefore would also advocate a young earth.

And, Pastor Soule, you care to comment on that? Well, I wonder. I was going to talk about something different if I could just...

Okay, well, I just want to ask one more thing, then, of Dr. Costa. Do you discuss this, as the listeners

Sicily was asking, do you discuss this in your apologetics course? Yes, I do.

I also address that when we deal with issues like Darwinism, when we deal with the question of origins, so we look at Darwinism, we look at progressive creationism, we look at younger creationism, and so forth.

Okay, Pastor Soule? And, you know what Dr. Costa just said is that it shows you the importance of apologetics.

I actually wanted to come from a practical standpoint of apologetics being necessary as being a pastor in a church, and in my previous church, there was a girl that was new to the faith and had a ton of questions.

It was great engaging with this girl, but as her questions got deeper, I thought that, you know, these questions are questions that you want a lot of people to hear.

So I decided to have a seminar in my previous church, but I wanted an apologist and, you know, not easy to find.

I ended up calling from the Baptist Seminary. There was a registrar there at the time, his name was

Keith Edwards, and I was talking to him about, you know, do you have any topics that you guys teach on the trustworthiness of Scripture, the reliability, because I think that's what students would need, but do you know anybody that would be able to do a seminar for me?

And he recommended Dr. Costa. So with hesitation, I emailed

Dr. Costa. He may be thinking that he'll say, no, he's too busy. Why come to this little small church and do it?

But he contacted me right away. We organized the seminar, and a lot of people came out, but what was more amazing about it was all the questions that people had to ask.

They were just coming from all different directions, and it showed me that people really are struggling with issues, but they don't know where to go with it.

So people like Dr. Costa are important. They're people that we should support, because they're trained to be able to engage people in these kind of questions that they're asking.

Sometimes, as some people say, the church is answering questions that nobody's asking. Every time we do our seminar,

I have never seen one of our seminars not go over time with questions that people are asking. Our last seminar that we did, we did it on cultural

Marxism, and if you would see the faces of people, the look, the intrigue, the new information that they're receiving, you know, you talk to them, and now they feel a little bit more equipped to address issues that are happening in this world.

That's kind of why we do it for. But the sad part about it, doing these seminars, is very little pastors are interested in stuff like this.

And you have church people who really don't care. They're coming to church because their grandmother came to church, or their mother came to church, and this is what they've always done, but they don't really have that desire to get deeper into the

Scripture and be able to engage people on topics that are relevant to them today.

Now, what would you both say is the primary area of need in the church in the 21st century that would fall under the umbrella of apologetics?

What are the areas that every Christian should be further equipped in regard to their ability to respond to criticism or opposition or mockery, etc.?

The areas that would be primary rather than secondary or tertiary things, there are other matters of apologetics that perhaps can wait, whereas there are some things that are more urgently needed.

I mean, perhaps we can wait before we understand fully the theological paradigm of Swedenborgianism.

Unless, of course, your family is Swedenborgianist. But tell us, Dr. Costa first, and then

Pastor Soule, what is the greatest need in this area? Yeah, I think

Swedenborgianism is what started IKEA. Although I do know people who were raised in that cult, but anyway, go ahead.

Yeah, it's a strange cult, to be sure. The three areas,

I would say, Chris, right now I think the most pressing issues is objective truth and morality.

Most of our young people today in the Church are being taught in their educational systems that truth is not objective.

That is to say that there is no absolute truth in the world. All truth is relative. And so because of that view, if truth is not objective, then that means life ultimately cannot be objective.

It is subjective, it's whatever you make of it. And so this relates very, very closely to the existence of God, because if God exists, if the personal

God of the Bible exists, then that means that objective morality exists, because it's rooted in Him.

That means there's meaning in the universe, there's purpose in the universe. So I would say that the objectivity of truth and meaning and morality in the world, as it is related to God's existence,

I think is one of the main areas. The other area is the area of reliability of Scripture.

Most folks today would dismiss the Bible as an ancient text, as Pastor Sully said earlier, they would dismiss it as non -relevant, it is not a relevant text to today's standards, and so there's a need to defend its reliability, to defend even the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, even to the unbeliever.

And I think the third area, and this is one area that I think our churches are failing miserably at, is the encroachment of post -modernism, critical race theory, cultural

Marxism, all of these views that are penetrating into our government, into our society, into our schools, and unfortunately, penetrating into our churches.

Right now, one of the most serious issues is the whole issue of critical race theory, that is mushrooming in many churches in America today.

And so, the reason why this is so relevant is because most people today, and this surrounds the abortion debate, this surrounds the whole issue of same -sex marriage and homosexuality and so forth, the whole issue here, and now we have sexual identity is not being questioned, that male -female binary identities are not our social constructs, that they're not really based on biology.

And most people today are battling these ideas, and I think what we need to show, Chris, is that outside of the biblical

God, outside of the personal God of the Bible, human beings, left to themselves, are going to destroy themselves.

We're beginning to see some of that in Hong Kong right now, as we see the dynamics there with mainland

China. Human rights go out the window, and so the significance of the human being as a human being comes to question.

So, I think those are the three pressing areas. God's existence as it relates to moral, objective morality, objective truth, the area of scriptural reliability of the

Bible to most folks today is no longer relevant, and thirdly, we really need to tackle this post -modern spirit that is encroaching into our societies.

The West is being plagued by this. This is a particularly Western phenomenon, and so I think these are the areas that Christians need to engage and need to be able to answer in light of Scripture.

Isn't it ironic how, for decades, actually, perhaps even a century, the liberal rhetoric, the liberal apologetic in opposition to Christianity, has largely been based, in their minds anyway, on science, and yet today, and this is just really a very recent phenomenon, today you have outlandishly unscientific things being demanded to be believed as fact, such as a man says that he's a woman because he identifies as a woman, feels like a woman.

I think that's a song somewhere. But we, everyone surrounding this person in the universe is supposed to immediately, in lockstep, say, okay, you're a woman.

Even if it defies every scientific fact that is known to man.

So this is really a change even though we've always believed as Christians that a lot of the alleged science claimed by leftists is fake science and false science.

This goes beyond that. This is just into the spectrum of fairy tales.

You know, I would agree. Everything that Dr.

Costa said, I knew he was going to touch on my thoughts, and you touched on one of my thoughts as well. The trustworthiness of Scripture is a major issue.

It's looked at as an archaic book. The existence of God, like Dr. Costa talked about, these are necessary things that Christians need to jump on and understand.

But just like you just said right now, it's human sexuality. That is something that is plaguing our world today.

So, when it comes to the idea of God, they want to use science to disprove

God, but when it comes to human sexuality, science is not necessary. Or even such issues as abortion, conception, life begins at conception, science.

If it does not go with the political agenda, they get rid of science. Another thing that I would like to add that people should kind of put their hands into to understand is world religions and cults.

People are very confused. I just met a guy before I'm getting on the radio coming home who he has gone to a church, but he's working so it conflicts with his schedule, talking about his

Muslim friends. And I had a great conversation that they're having. And I wanted to kind of,

I was running out of time, but I wanted to qualify the conversation that you're having with these

Muslim friends. Many times, even when Dr. Acosta preaches and he talks about stuff about Islam, people get offended.

How dare you talk against our brothers like this? Which is sad for me even here.

So, world religions, cults, is important. And I did a situation that me and Dr.

Acosta went through and I know he'll remember it as I was talking. Dr. Acosta, I don't know if you were preaching or you were doing a seminar at our church but somebody brought, as their

Bible, the New World Translation. And Dr.

Acosta said, who is this? And I found the person and I talked to the person and I said, this is not a version, this is a perversion.

And I threw it in the garbage, but people don't have those little basic understandings to help them along with their

Christianity. Yes, years ago on the old Iron Trip and Zion Radio broadcasting out of New York, I had a panel of ministers in liberal denominations that were pro -life.

And right before, seconds before we went on the air, these ministers, when we were sitting around in the studio waiting for the show to start, started discussing what their favorite

Bible translation was. And the United Methodist Pastor said, oh,

I like the New World Translation. And everybody was sitting there in shocked silence and I said, you do know that that's the

Jehovah's Witness Bible, don't you? And he said, oh yes, I'm an Arian. And then all of a sudden I hear from the other side of the glass,

Chris, you've got three seconds, we're going on now. Boy, that was,

I don't think I've sweat any more than I sweat that day. But anyway, we have to go to our elongated break today.

During the middle of the show, we always have to have an elongated break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show so they can air their own public service announcements and commercials to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. And so while they are airing their commercials, we air our globally heard commercials.

And so I'm asking you to make best use of this time. Write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

Because the more frequently and successfully you patronize them, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we are going to remain on the air.

So please try to patronize our advertisers as much as possible. Also, please send in your questions to Pastor Sule Prince and Dr.

Tony Costa, the chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com on the subject of why apologetics is necessary.

Why apologetics is necessary. So we look forward to hearing from you and your questions after this elongated break.

So please be patient and don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa and Pastor Sule Prince to further discuss why apologetics is necessary right after these messages from our sponsors.

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As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and we are going to, before we return to our guests, make some very important announcements in regard to special events that we hope that you attend.

These are events that I think will benefit every life of those in our audience, and I hope that, especially if you live near where the events are being held, that you make every effort to be there.

The first event coming up is taking place in September. A dear friend of mine,

Pastor Bruce Bennett, who has been a guest on my program on a number of occasions, he is the pastor of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and he is going to be debating a

Roman Catholic apologist named Matthew Luke Broderick on the theme, Is the Office of Pope Biblical?

Is the Office of Pope Biblical? That will be Saturday, September 7th, 630 p .m.

at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. If you want more details, go to WOTChurch .com.

WOT, which stands for Word of Truth Church .com. WOTChurch .com,

or call 631 -806 -0614. 631 -806 -0614.

Then, in December, I'm going to be packing up my bags and heading down, or should I say up, to my old stomping grounds, my old stomping grounds in Manhattan to the

Foundations Conference. And what better time of year than to be in New York City during the

Christmas season, and this is surely a part of the Christmas season, Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th.

And the Foundations Conference is always an excellent conference. It is hosted and orchestrated by SermonAudio .com.

And this December, they have as their speakers Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Rev.

Jeff Thomas, Rev. Armand Tomasian, Richard Colwell Jr., and Anthony Quigley. And I hope that you join me, if you are a man in ministry leadership.

That is the requirement for your attendance to the Foundations Conference. That is

Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th in New York City. Go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com to register. Now, unlike the

Foundations Conference, the G3 Conference is open to every man, woman, and child. Of course, only children with their parents.

And the G3 Conference is on the theme this January, Worship Matters, and it's being held

Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th in Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically

College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, at the Georgia International Convention Center. I can't wait to be manning, once again, an

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio exhibitors booth at the G3 Conference. Something always wonderful happens when

I do so. The theme, as I said, is Worship Matters, and the speakers are absolutely extraordinary, as they always are.

Kosti Hinn, the nephew of notorious heretic and charlatan

Benny Hinn, is on the roster. Kosti is currently a

Reformed Baptist and cessationist pastor in Arizona. You'll hear ads identifying him as a pastor in California.

Well, a very recent update is that his church sent him to take over the pastorate at a church in Arizona, so that's where he is today.

But Kosti repented of and has renounced his Word of Faith background and, as I said, became a

Reformed Baptist and a cessationist, so he is on the roster at this conference. Daryl Bernard Harrison, who is a new addition to the

Grace to You ministry, the ministry of John MacArthur. David Miller, who's a real phenomenal old -school preacher and teacher, just love to hear him open up the

Word of God. Derek Thomas, who is certainly no stranger to most Reformed Christians, is on the roster.

My friend Dr. James R. White, a mutual friend of one of our guests today, Dr. Tony Costa. Dr.

White has been my friend since 1995, and what a brilliant man of God he is. Dr. Joel Beeke, who is president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Once again, we have Stephen J. Lawson and Paul Washer. They are on the lineup of this conference as well.

Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You Ministries, the ministry of John MacArthur. Stephen J. Lawson, president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio. Dr. Tom Askell, who is the executive director of Founders Ministries, the

Calvinistic ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention. Vody Baucom, who is one of the most brilliant and powerful preachers alive today.

And the most recent addition to the lineup is one of my greatest heroes of the 21st century,

John MacArthur. He will be on the lineup, and I have never been in the same room when

John MacArthur is preaching and teaching. In fact, I've never been in the same room with him at any time. I'm so looking forward to finally meeting him.

I have interviewed him on the program before, but never met him face -to -face. Looking so forward to this.

If you would like to join me at the G3 Conference from Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, 2020, at the

Georgia International Convention Center, go to g3 conference .com, g3conference .com. I strongly urge you to, if you have a business or a parachurch ministry,

I strongly urge you not only to register for attendance, but register for an exhibitor's booth. They typically have over 5 ,000 people attend this event, and with John MacArthur added to the lineup,

I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 people. So go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com

to register to attend and or register for an exhibitor's booth. Finally, if you love

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, you don't want the show to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsherpanzironradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now, and you'll be able to instantly donate through a debit or credit card in that fashion.

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Please never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, and never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and home. Providing for Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio is certainly not a command of God, but if you're financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, please help us.

Our donations have really been diminishing. I don't know if that's because people are getting sick of hearing me, but our donations have really gone down, and we really need your donations, folks.

If you love the show, please help us. Please don't let us fall into another very dangerous and scary financial pit like we recently crawled out of or climbed out of due to the generosity of a handful of donors who really helped us by paying off all of the bills that we had mounted up and some new advertisers which came to the rescue, but please prevent us from falling into another one of those scary financial pits.

Please, if you love the show, donate to us at ironsherpansironradio .com, click support, then click to donate now, and if you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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You don't have to believe identically with what I believe, but you need to be promoting something that's compatible with what

I believe, and if you are not a member of a bible -believing church and you're not even looking for one, please rectify that situation.

You're living in rebellion against God if that's what you are doing, if you're just avoiding finding a church thinking that you are sufficient in and of yourself to follow

Christ appropriately. Well, you're actually living in rebellion as I said, so please let me help you rectify that situation.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and God willing I will be able to help you find a church, even if it's a church where you need to visit while you're on vacation, or a church for your family, friends, or loved ones in other parts of the world who don't have a church.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line or something similar to that.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guests today,

Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and also

Pastor Sule Prince at Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Canada.

And the email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Well, we have a listener in Asheboro, North Carolina, Grady, who is a very faithful, loyal listener and generous supporter of Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Grady asks, Hi Chris and guests. When having an apologetic discussion, how do you keep it from turning into an argument or handle a yelling person as the man in the barbershop?

A yelling person as the, oh, is this something that happened in the news that I'm unaware of? But anyway. That was the situation,

Chris, that I was talking about. Oh, I'm sorry. I've been so, my mind has been so diverted and distracted with some of the technical issues that I've been going through.

Um, yeah, well, I would suggest bringing a syringe with a sedative, uh, in the, but anyway, uh, a rag with chloroform on it should be kept handy.

Uh, of course, keep it away from me. I think that's just silly though that Mr. Spock just presses, uh, so, uh, either one of you, please start with your answers.

I would, I would say that the late Dr. Walter Martin, I think put it succinctly.

He said, um, he said, um, argument, argument for the sake of argument is a sin, but, uh, argument for the sake of truth is the divine command.

So there are people who are, um, just into it for the, for the argumentation.

There are people who are just possessive and, uh, they're militant by nature and they just want to argue and you're not going to get anywhere with these folks.

There does come a point, remember Jesus said in Matthew 7, that there does come a point, he says that you should not cast your pearls before swine.

Do not give what is holy to the strong language. Um, and I think what the

Lord is getting at there is that there does come a point where I call it the point of exhaustion, where you cannot do anything humanly speaking in terms of trying to convince this person, this person is not interested in the pursuit of truth, that this person is only interested in argumentation for the sake of argumentation.

And I think at that point, we need to understand that we need to submit that person into God's hands.

I've had to do that with a couple of people who are just not interested in truth. Um, I think that we also have to understand the apostle

Paul told Timothy that the Lord's servant must not quarrel. And, and so by quarreling, he means just going on in rabbit holes, rabbit trails and fighting and going around in circles and so forth.

Um, so that's when you know that you need to step back. Uh, if someone is genuinely interested in truth, they will, they will, uh, yes, of course, they're going to argue with you, but we have to distinguish between a constructive argument and a deconstructive argument.

Destructive arguments are just there to try to tear you down and, and you're not going to get anywhere with, with people like that.

So unfortunately that is the state of affairs that there are people in this world who are just going to argue for the sake of argument.

Um, and when you realize that you're just, uh, you're getting nowhere with this person because they're not interested in listening, then

I think you just have to hand them over to God and to God's mercy and pray for them that God would grant them repentance.

Um, but, uh, there are people who genuinely want to know. They really want to tackle these issues.

They want to ask legitimate questions. And so, um, it's those folks that we really want to focus on.

So... And Pastor Soule, do you have anything to add? Yeah, I, I, I believe also that you have to know how to engage people.

Um, like Dr. Costa saying, there's, there's people that want to argue for the sake of argument and they start yelling and they start shouting you down.

Uh, one thing that I always do is keep a person to the topic. If they, they make a specific claim and you're answering that, the first thing that they want to do is jump on something else.

No, we're going to finish this topic. Let's finish this. So with a particular individual in the barbershop that was screaming and yelling and he's really raising his voice, usually

I would, I would disengage and just say, okay, um, we'll, we'll deal with this at another time or another venue outside of the barbershop or something like that.

But he was speaking so loud. You could, you could see he was influencing everybody else around him.

Um, and they're starting to have questions in your mind. So I engaged him right there on the spot.

I kept going until I was asked personally, listen, this guy ain't listening to you. Um, just sit down and relax.

But I was dealing with him on what he was saying and I just totally kept calm.

I didn't raise my voice over his voice. Um, you know, we still have to show the love of God to people.

Um, they may not, uh, as you see when you're engaging with people and they're arguing with you and they're loud, they, you, they may not appear like, um, they believe in what you're saying, but you don't really know what's happening in their mind.

They can walk out of that place and you could have really challenged him. So you don't want to kind of wreck your testimony by, um, ignorance or, or fighting back with him.

Just sticking to the argument, keeping calm and knowing exactly when to disengage. And this person ain't even listening to me.

I personally, as I told you, was doing it for everybody else that was around hearing what he was saying, showing them that what he is saying is, uh, there's no credit to it.

So I'm going to discredit what he's saying just for everybody else to hear. Uh, yeah. One thing

I would strongly, uh, advise our listeners never to do something that I did, uh, unconsciously.

Uh, I was in a barbershop myself, uh, a Turkish barber and getting a straight razor shave from a

Turkish barber. And while I was getting this straight razor shave with a razor to my throat,

I was having a phone conversation on my cell phone with Eddie Delcor. I think, uh,

Dr. Costa, you're familiar with Eddie, aren't you? Yes. I was talking with Eddie Delcor about the doctrinal errors of Islam while I was having a shave with a straight razor in a

Turkish barber. And I realized, I realized midway through the conversation where I was.

Fortunately, the barber was either ignoring what I was hearing or was, uh, uh, unconcerned about my, my conversation one way or another because nothing happened.

Well, it seems you were, you were shaved by grace. I needed that laugh today.

Um, but yes, arguments. I, I have, I can clearly remember before I was even a

Christian, my brother, Bob, uh, who is closest in age to me and my family. He's he's older than me, but closest in age.

He was a brand new Christian or fairly new Christian. And our older brother,

Andy, uh, loves to antagonize and, uh, tie up in knots

Christians because Andy was a professing believer for at least a decade and knows his

Bible to a reasonable degree. And he used to tie my brother up in knots.

And I can still remember my brother flipping his kitchen, uh, table over under the floor, utensils, crashing cups and things crashing to the floor out of anger and frustration over my brother's, uh, tying up him up in knots.

And, uh, I don't know. Are you two presuppositional lists? The reason why

I'm asking this is because, uh, whether you're presuppositionalist or not, but presuppositionalist approach to apologetics seems to at least be a tool to prevent rabbit trails when people are in conversations with you about religion.

I know that, uh, nearly every time I have been in a conversation with a non -believer or witnessed one, they love to take you on a rabbit trail because they realize when they're running out of steam, when you're backing them into a corner and they have no answers to your questions, uh, they want to switch gears and go to another area.

Uh, they want to go to an area where, uh, there, there might be more difficulty in your explanations, things that no human could prove that don't even need to be proven.

Uh, for instance, uh, we already know from Romans one that everybody really does know that God exists, but they suppress that truth.

But if you could, uh, uh, Tony, and then Pastor Sule, isn't it very important that we not lose control of a conversation?

Not that we're supposed to be, uh, annoying and rude by domineering a conversation, but at the same time, we have to be careful not to waste our time by allowing an unbeliever to take us to and fro, uh, on all kinds of rabbit trails that avoid him from really considering very eternal and vitally important questions that he is facing.

Right. I, I totally agree. Um, I would say first and foremost, that I am primarily first a presuppositionalist, so I presuppose a couple of things.

I presuppose that logic exists and that we cannot have a conversation like this one we're having now.

We cannot have a conversation unless logic exists. That is, the laws of logic are operative.

I cannot be talking to you right now and not be talking to you at the same time. That's the law of non -contradiction. And in order for logic to exist, and all philosophers and even atheists would acknowledge that the laws of logic are abstract, and they are universal, and they've always been true.

They will always be true, even when the universe ceases to exist. And therefore, if logic exists, then it has to be founded on something, and that something, of course, would be the

Trinidadian scripture. So, I presuppose a number of things. Number one, the fact that we can have logic and we can have coherence in our words and argumentation rests on a base that is the foundation of all logic and mind, which is

God, and therefore, objective truth must exist. And so, presuppositionalism is extremely important.

Just like the statement, a bachelor is an unmarried man, is true by definition.

You don't have to prove it. It's true by its very definition. A triangle is a three -sided figure. That is true by definition.

I don't have to prove it. Now, that doesn't mean that evidentialism goes out the window.

I think there is a place for evidentialism. The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 cited a number of witnesses who saw the risen

Christ, and he even said that out of the 500 that saw the risen Christ, some of them, he said, have fallen asleep.

That is, they passed away, and the implication is, look, there's some living witnesses that have seen the risen

Christ, and they can testify to what I'm telling you. So, there is a place for evidentialism, but I think evidentialism is subordinate to presuppositional apologetics, and I think you're absolutely right,

Chris, that when we're engaging people, it's important that we stay on track.

Remember what Proverbs 25, I believe, verse 6 and 7 says? It says, do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes, and answer a fool according to his folly, and you shall be like him.

And I think what that means is, if you give the argument to your opponent, if you grant their argument, then you're just becoming as foolish as they are.

And what it tells us, rather, is do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

In other words, our objective is to pull the rug from underneath them, to show them that they really have no foundation upon which to make their claims, and therefore, their view is just as subjective as my view and anyone else's view.

So, I really think that a presuppositional approach is key here to the

Christian witness. I would add something additional as well.

I love how Dr. Acosta explains it, so if you weren't, probably after the explanation, you probably would be.

But when it comes to dealing with people and, you know, they want to take on those rabbit tails, you've got to stick to the argument.

You know, that guy in the barbershop, first he didn't believe in God, and it turned into slavery.

Then it went into how you treat women, and then it went into homosexuals.

Okay, you listed all those things, but I'm going to deal with your first issue. I'm going to deal with the issue of the existence of God.

Let's stay there. But they want to jump all over the place. Okay, good, we'll talk about that, but I want to stay right here.

So, in a sense, you have to kind of control the conversation, but also I would like to urge your listeners that when they are engaging in conversations with people, you never know who is actually listening.

I remember I was evangelizing to my friend. I was younger. I was a new believer, and I would talk to this guy every single day that I could see him.

We went to the same high school about that. He had absolutely no concern, but he always had a friend sitting beside him.

I'm a new believer, and I would look at this friend of his, and I'd be like, I just don't like this guy.

Just the way this guy looked and how he acted. I just didn't like the guy, and I had these wrong thoughts.

I wish I could just beat this guy up. Hey, I am prefacing it by saying

I was a new believer, but I would talk to my friend every day about God, and he had no concern, and this guy is sitting down and he's smoking a cigarette by never saying a word.

By the end of that summer, me and that guy went to the same school, and that guy who never said a word had a

Bible in his hand, and he was walking down the hall and said, Sule, I heard every word that you said.

I believe in Jesus now, and today, to this very day, he's a minister in a church.

Wow. You never know who's listening. Yes, and this touches on some things that were already said, but I want you to expand on it.

You could win a battle and lose the war when it comes to apologetic discussions with unbelievers, or even believers that have in -house disagreements with you.

A key, I think, a very strong key, a crucial key, is humility, and I have to say,

Dr. Costa, you have been given a gift when it comes to your ability to remain cool, calm, collected, and humble in the midst of a debate, a heated debate, like the one that I arranged right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, between you and my friend, my

Roman Catholic friend, Robert St. Genes. There were some heated moments, as you may recall, in that debate, and the way that you constantly maintained a gracious spirit, a humble spirit, you never lost your cool once.

You never got heated. Now, I'm not saying by this that every moment of a debate, a

Christian should never be stern. I'm not saying that at all.

There's a difference between being stern and being nasty. You don't have to be

Mr. Rogers throughout the entirety of a debate. In fact, to always be bubbly and sweet might give the impression that very vital topics that have eternal consequences are being taken without great seriousness.

So, therefore, I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about being poised, being charitable, being compassionate to someone who is deceived.

You really demonstrated that throughout the debate, and I think, and I've seen that happen also many times with Dr.

James R. White, our mutual friends in debates, where Roman Catholics have approached me after the debates and have said, boy, that Catholic apologist owes

James White an apology. He was really nasty and behaved in an un -Christian manner, and I just cannot help but see

Dr. White as being the far more Christian person or the more

Christ -like person in that discussion. So, the facts are obviously vital in a debate or even a conversation, but equally important is the manner with which you present those facts.

Is that not true? Yeah, I think you're right, Chris. After saying all that now, I don't know if I'm humbled now after I've heard all that.

I must admit, I enjoyed it, so I'm guilty of gloating in the flesh, but let me just say that you're absolutely right,

Chris. I think that, and I thank the Lord for that disposition. I think it's important in all my debates.

They're all available on YouTube. In my debates, I've always remained calm, poised.

That speaks volumes to the audience. When a person starts losing it, like our mutual friend

Robinson Dennis, it was like a clip out of The Godfather. I really thought that I was going to be eating with the fishes that night.

But I think it is important to be contained, poised, you have to be humble in spirit, and I think it's also important that you recognize that our battle is not against flesh and blood.

We are battling, we are wrestling against spiritual powers at work, and when I debate someone, whether it's a

Muslim mom, or whether it's a Mormon, or whether it's a secular humanist, or an atheist, the first thing

I think about is that is an image -bearer. That person bears the image of God, and they're fallen. They need to be restored.

And so my hope is that they would come to faith in Christ, and I have to keep that in mind, that ultimately our enemy is

Satan, of course, and the demonic hordes. But at the same time,

I'm also conscious of the fact that when I engage in debates, your presentation and how you present yourself and how you conduct yourself on stage speaks volumes to the audience, and it shows the audience that, hey, you know what?

This guy's not losing it. He's calm, he's respectful, and I think that really, really, really is a good testimony as well to the audience, and I've heard many people say that.

That that is actually a sign of conviction, that this guy really has something here.

Yeah, that he's very confident in what he believes, and he's not getting angry, because he knows that the truth, in the end, will win out, and that God's truth,

God's Word will not return void, and there is a confidence there.

And when somebody has a melt down and loses their temper, it's a sign that they know they're losing an argument or a debate.

Exactly right. And we have a question from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York.

Bobby in Hartsdale says, How do you respond to those brothers who believe that debating is not a proper activity for a

Christian, especially because in orchestrating a debate in a public forum, one has to give a platform very often to an enemy of Christ, that is, of course, if the debate involves a

Christian and non -Christian? Right. I would say that many of those who speak that way have never personally debated.

They've never personally engaged in debates, and so many, many times they're not even familiar with the territory they speak of.

The other thing I would say is that we do have biblical precedent for this. Paul and Apollos.

Act 17. Yeah, I mentioned Act 17 earlier, that the Apostle Paul engaged the

Greek philosophers, the Epicureans and the Stoics, in the Europagus. And what we're told at the end of that is that some mocked and some questioned, some came to believe.

And that's usually the response that we get. I've been in debates with Muslims where I later found out that a

Muslim in the audience was convicted. They heard the gospel and they were saved. So debates are important.

The Reformers were not afraid to debate. Luther debated John Eck, the

Roman Catholic, debated him publicly. The Reformers did not shy away from that.

The Church Fathers, I think of, of course, Polycarp, the great disciple of the

Apostle John, who also discipled Irenaeus and Ignatius. Polycarp basically said that when his enemies challenged his faith, he said, mark the day and I'll be there.

I'll be there to defend the faith before you. So I think that debates have their place.

I don't think debates are for everyone, but they do serve a purpose, and it shows the world that Christians are not afraid.

They're not anti -intellectuals. That Christians are willing to put up their neck, and they're willing to take the world on for Jesus Christ.

And that's why I relish engaging in debates in secular universities against...

I remember doing a debate with an atheist here in Canada at the Wilfrid Laurie University. He was a psychologist, and we were debating the existence of God.

And the audience, many of the audience members were, I think, his students, and so they're probably there to get brownie points in this course.

But the fact of the matter is, Chris, that when an unbelieving world sees a Christian scholar at the front, in front of hundreds, sometimes thousands of people, taking on an atheist and answering them in a cogent manner, it speaks volumes.

And I think that's one of the things that as Christians, we have abandoned this. We have a rich heritage of great thinkers who've come and gone, and we are standing literally on the shoulders of giants.

But unfortunately, what we see in many of our churches today is an anti -intellectualism, where the church recedes into the shadows.

And this is why most people think the church is no longer relevant, because she cannot answer these big questions of our day.

And when we return from our final break, I'd like you to get more into a defense on the specific aspect of that question, about giving a platform to an enemy of Christ.

Like, for instance, when I arrange debates, I have to fly in very often.

Someone pay for an air ticket, a plane ticket, to travel, and I have to pay for their lodging, and I have to give them an honorarium, and this person is getting up on a stage behind a microphone, and he's presenting his views, which are, unless this is an in -house debate amongst

Christians, he's presenting views that are the antithesis of Christian teaching, and I am providing him with that opportunity.

So, that is the greatest argument that those who oppose debates have, and they have tried to make me feel guilty for doing this at times.

This is a rare thing I hear, but it does, that does happen, I do hear it. But if you could respond to that when we return from our final break.

If anybody else wants to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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We are now back with our final segment with Dr. Tony Costa and Pastor Sule Prince. And Dr.

Costa, we'll start with you, and Sule, you can respond after. How do you respond?

And I have friends that are good men. I look up to some of them as even modern -day heroes of the faith, men who far surpass me in not only intellect, but even in their sanctification in Christian life, who have said to me,

Chris, I love you, love a lot of things that you do, most of the things that you do. I love your show, but the debates that you do,

I really oppose it because you are giving a platform to the enemy of Christ. You're paying for their travel and lodging.

You're giving them an opportunity to stand before an audience behind a mic and give false doctrine a hear.

So if you could respond to that. Yeah, I would say the context is really important here.

This is not a church fellowship. This is not a church session, a service in the church that you're giving a platform to a false teacher or an atheist or an enemy of the faith.

This is a debate. It's a completely different topic. And so I know Dr. James White himself, when he debated

Dr. Bart Ehrman, he had to cover the costs. And so Bart Ehrman, of course, is probably one of the biggest critics of Christianity today in the

New Testament, and he doesn't come cheap, I can tell you that.

The other thing I think we need to bear in mind is that the reason why you're doing this is for the sake of the gospel.

It's for the sake of showing that the gospel can triumph over false doctrine. And our taxes themselves,

I mean, when we pay our taxes, whether we like it or not, we have to pay taxes, but we know that our taxes are also being used by the government for some unethical reasons as well.

Here in Canada, our taxes are being used to fund abortion. They're being used to fund things that are unbiblical.

So we have to realize we live in a fallen world. We realize that there are enemies of the gospel all around us.

But when we're talking about a debate like the ones you do, Chris, and I applaud you for that, and I think you've done a great job of orchestrating and moderating these debates.

We have one coming up in October with the whole question of conditioning mortality. This helps to sharpen the gospel.

It helps to shine the gospel. It helps to show that we have answers.

And so I don't think you're doing anything different than what the early Church Fathers and the Reformers did. I think we need more of these debates.

And Sule, do you have any further comments? I fully agree. I think that what you're doing is a great thing.

When you have debates, you fully allow the person's beliefs, who's on the opposing side, to be represented properly.

Because it's coming from somebody who's probably a scholar, a teacher, a PhD, of that view.

So it allows you to fully understand the person's argumentation. And it also allows the person who's on the opposing side, on the

Christian side, to be able to show that the Christian belief can stand against opposing arguments.

There's no other way for you to truly learn and grasp a belief if you don't address it or read about it.

I know in seminary, we have to read books of people that have the opposing view. But it allows you not to misrepresent the argumentation.

I remember, I could talk practically. Dr. Cossa did a debate in a

Muslim scholar. And Dr.

Cossa posed the issue of Allah praying, and said, who is Allah praying to?

I am telling you, a lot of the Muslims in the audience struggled with that.

So not only did it help the Christian defense, but it shook the foundation of the Muslims. Because afterwards, people had to line up to ask questions.

That was one of the questions that they were asking. So explain this whole thing about Allah praying, and who he was praying to.

So there's a lot of effectiveness in having debates. I love them, and I would continue to do these debates.

Amen. And we are out of time now. And I want to make sure that I give all the contact information for both of my guests today.

And first of all, the Toronto Baptist Seminary can be found at their website, tbs .edu,

tbs .edu. And I know that the

Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Ontario, Canada, they can be found at oakwoodwesleyan .org,

oakwoodwesleyan .org. And Dr.

Costa, I know that you have a personal website. You care to share that information? Yes, my personal website, which is still under construction.

There's some stuff on it. It's simply tonycosta .webs .com. That's all one word, tonycosta .webs

.com. And if I could just mention very quickly, oakwoodwesleyan .org.

If anyone's interested in taking the Attributes of God course online, they can do so by going to that website.

Click on Register. You can register online. Online students are paying only $100

Canadian, which means that our American friends are getting a great deal here. Our dollar is weaker than the

American dollar at this point, so they're probably paying about $75 US for $100

Canadian. So I would encourage those who cannot be in Toronto to join us on the internet, and we'll be happy to provide all the information and handouts and PowerPoints and so forth.

Okay. Well, I hope that all of you also make a note to tune in tomorrow to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We have two guests tomorrow. To start off the program, we have David Horowitz, who, believe it or not, is a

Jewish agnostic, but he wrote a book called Dark Agenda, The War to Destroy Christian America, and he's not in favor of that war to destroy

Christian America. He's actually opposed to it, even though he is a Jewish agnostic. He's our first guest.

Then following him will be Gary DeMar of American Vision, who will be continuing the theme,

The War to Destroy Christian America. So we hope that you tune in tomorrow. I want to thank you, Dr.

Costa. I want to thank you, Pastor Soule, for being my guest today. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater