2 Pastors and Their Wives Discuss Women Pastors

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Nefarious (2023) First Time Watching! Reaction & Review (***Spoilers***)

00:00

Everybody in the SBC believes in the inerrancy of scripture But I am a woman I know what a woman is I think there are men who pursue ministry who pursue the pulpit who shouldn't be in the pulpit I'm sorry lady preachers who feel called to be a preacher.

00:34

You're not it's not The church didn't have any good male leaders should it stay constituted as a church Jen No Welcome back to conversations with a Calvinist My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist and I'm joined today by my beautiful bride Jennifer Foskey and our very good Friends David and Jennifer Bradshere who are coming to us from Grace Community Church in Ulea, Florida David is the pastor of Grace Community Church and don't let the name fool you He is a Presbyterian.

01:30

So he's bringing with him today the Superior Theology Yes, we are Calvinist also Calvinist at the table men and women we are bringing it today.

01:43

That's right We've been wanting to do this for a while and they're really excited to have you guys I'm thankful to to be able to have this conversation We've known each other for years David and I of course being pastors in the same area We've known each other known of each other for years, but we probably have gotten closer because our wives Yeah, now your kids do karate with us That's right Your kids did karate with us and that was fun and that I got to know you here used to come and study in my Office, that's right, which was always kind of cool I'd go in there and say see somebody who really knows what they're doing is actually and there's somebody with Superior Theology Uses my desk once or twice a week During karate, but but it was kind of cool.

02:20

You know, you'd come up and the kids would be here they'd be doing karate and you'd be here, but you ladies began to go to a Pastors wives dinner.

02:30

Mm-hmm.

02:31

I miss those.

02:32

I miss those too Don if you're listening Yeah, they kind of fell apart during kovat, but hope they'll hopefully we'll get him up right going again Yeah, well, I've actually recently started a thing with the men So I took a cue from you ladies and and now we're meeting once a month for lunch and it's hard to get guys together It's hard to get pastor together, but we've been able to do that and it's been a lot of fun So with with that in mind though Something else has brought you two together that I think is worth mentioning and that is we all recently became parents again Now we both have big families.

03:04

You guys have how many children before? Well now five But you had you had four and what was your youngest before your new baby the age almost 15 I'm not laughing And that's okay So, what was that I do have to ask and I hope I hope this is okay to ask what was that conversation like when you saw the test You know a lot of are you kidding? This isn't funny God Yeah Well, we sort of have a similar story now our youngest is five so not quite 15 that that's it That's a pretty good stretch.

04:00

Yeah, but ours were 10-7-5 and We thought we were done.

04:07

We thought God had Had stopped that However, I get a call one day.

04:14

Hey, can you bring home a test and I said a kovat test because I figured you know Well, it wasn't a kovat test and and and I brought home three do you do that do you do you over test? I mean, I I just tell him what happens I don't even know anything about this until the test has come back positive.

04:37

My understanding is if it's positive, it's positive.

04:40

Yeah False negatives, but you can't have false positive I just don't trust anything.

04:49

I'm like, I'm not a conspiracy theory guy, but I'm one of those guys It's like I want it.

04:53

I want to know for sure So right, you know even with you know, like any kind of like tests like that.

04:58

I'm like, I'm buying three or four about the Yeah But since you guys had the babies you ladies have really Begun your friendship is budded.

05:16

You become closer you guys talk on this every day and I think that's great and has brought us closer and and feel like our friendship is closer and The only thing we have to do now is schedule our baptism debate because I think that's what it has to be a two-on-two They have to come and do it So you didn't know what today is actually gonna be Is I've got a big old pool in there we're gonna go sit in the baptistry and we're gonna talk about no it is it is interesting though, I bring that up because we have So many things that we agree on.

05:57

I mean, I would say, you know, obviously the gospel We agree on what the gospel is and that unifies us.

06:02

We have so many things that we Share that either one of us could share the other one's pulpit and there and there may be some ground rules before going in You know sort of like Rob Hamm, you remember Rob Hamm from yes own yeah, you know He and I debated on the Sabbath the definition and How we are to observe the Sabbath things like that and then the very next day he preached in my pulpit and I preached in His so it was a way of showing that even though we debate We love each other and there's no animosity and when it's over it's done.

06:34

There's no, you know, we believe in the same Christ We're going to the same heaven And when we get there you'll find out we were right So, so that's our you know but that does bring up sort of the issue today because what we're talking about is something that we We would not necessarily divide Friendships over but it could divide fellowships and that is the subject of whether or not women Should be preaching as pastors in the church and and and there's actually Multifold ways of talking about this because we could say should women be pastors and then we have to define Is there a difference between a pastor and an elder see in our church? There isn't really a difference I know you guys you you define elders as We have vocational non-vocational you have ruling and teaching right now in your church.

07:31

How many elders do you have? We've three ruling elders and then myself as a teaching elder You're the only teaching elder.

07:38

Yeah, is that normally how it is? Not necessarily.

07:42

No So like for example, like, you know Westminster Steve's been Weber, you know He did I was actually I got to participate in an ordination service for their associate pastor.

07:51

Oh, so So, you know, they have an associate now and other churches have associates and but not all it just depends on budget You know really now we could have a number of teaching elders I mean, there's some PCA churches that have four or five six on staff Sure, just have you ever seen one where the pulpit was shared where the pastor where there were different Pastor each week preach a different sermon or is it usually the same guy? Who's the preaching pastor? Yeah, there's usually a senior pastor and then several associates and the senior usually is the one that preaches the most Yeah, and the reason why I'm bringing this up is and not trying to leave you ladies out I'm just the thing I'm asking is one of the things that I've heard is That well, it's okay to have a woman in a role of an elder as long as she's not a teaching elder, right? You know She's right rolling out or not a teaching elder or it's okay to have a woman as a pastor as long as she's not a Senior pastor or she's not the preaching pastor So so we have to right away sort of identify the fact that there are different Church structures, you know, we are we are an elder led church But in one sense, we're congregational in that our congregation.

09:03

We don't have a presbytery So the buck sort of stops with the church and and had that conversation on presbycast.

09:10

That's right.

09:10

That's right.

09:11

Yeah Baptist polity So so all of that leads to the conversation of all right So what are we talking about and I I think that from a biblical perspective? We would be and I want to have you ladies maybe jump in on this we would be saying any role where a woman would take authority over a man and that would certainly be the eldership and Any any role that requires the teaching of men would be is that how you guys see yeah Yeah, the the understanding of this.

09:45

Well, absolutely I mean we're told in Scripture that wives are supposed to be submissive to their husbands and how can they do that? If they have a position of authority over them All of this comes down to okay Where where do we find our answers and our answers have to come from Scripture? Absolutely have to come from the text and Every time we go to this there's a thousand things that people want to debate.

10:11

Well, Deborah was a leader So right then women should be able to be leaders We know what we're talking about with that would be the Old Testament reference to Deborah and then people will say well Well, what about Deacons or what about Deaconesses? What about Phoebe? What about Junia? Right? Have you guys heard of the Junia project? No In Acts 16, I'm sorry, excuse me Romans 16 Paul is Listing some of the some of his cohorts or co-servants and the Lord and he mentions a person named Junia Now we're we're unaware of that use of anywhere else in the scripture except for that one place Not even certain that it's a woman's name because the the it could be Junia a male name but the the Junia project is a website that's that's Convinced one that it is a woman to that She served as an apostle and that the term that Paul uses there is a co-laborer so that she was a co-apostle Again, that's good.

11:11

I just saw your if your eyes rolled I Think Jennifer just just like I'll hold my comments till the end And that Junia is the example that we should all be Making so so so they take a very obscure passage in the book of Romans, right? And they use that to interpret what seems to be a very clear passage in first Timothy And then of course Titus and Corinthians as well are the passages that that would be so I mean Yeah, so y'all haven't heard of this I haven't heard of that now But it certainly sounds like how the Mormons sort of argue for baptisms for the dead, you know from an obscure passage from 1st Corinthians, you know, well with this in mind, I want us to listen to a recent interaction with Rick Warren Because as many people may or may not know and this would probably affect our side a little bit more than your side Rick Warren was ousted from the SBC who I say Rick Warren Saddleback Church, which was founded by Rick Warren in the 80s It's one of the major mega churches of the world people don't realize this But my Big Eva character in my denominational videos is modeled after Rick Warren.

12:24

I wear the flowery shirt That's right, that's who I am that's that's right.

12:30

So Rick Warren is the is the alpha model for The kind of the big Eva for big.

12:36

Yeah.

12:37

Yeah.

12:37

Absolutely.

12:37

Yeah and to see him at the last SBC meeting did you guys happen to see that? I know I heard about it.

12:45

I read about it I mean he he stood at this podium to address the the people in charge or whatever I don't I'm not quite sure how the structure works But he's addressing the the convention and he stands at the podium and he and he really drops these braggadocious You know, I've trained over a million pastors and all these I have heard of this.

13:04

Yeah.

13:04

Yeah, I think I saw some memes The Bill Murray King Yeah, this is awesome, so I make myself laugh So we have the we have Rick Warren who sort of boastfully takes the podium at the SBC and Then within a year later less than a year later his his church that he founded has now been Disfellowshipped and when it did it was like oh man because that's really what he was doing at the SBC He was sort of he's like I even said he's like I feel like a man who's standing ready to be Executed and I'm giving my last words and everything.

13:53

It's like it's like slow down You're you're he was aware before that.

13:59

Yeah Right now I was we didn't design this didn't come up yesterday, right? This has been a rule for a long time broke the rules.

14:08

You're you you're right.

14:10

That's what happens The question is should it be a rule I think is the is what we're really talking about is is it right to make this Rule, but of course the SBC has that rule, but I want you to hear How he defends himself This was in a recent podcast not somebody shared it on Twitter and it's a it's only like a 20-second clip But I want you to hear his argument For us to deal with everybody in the SBC believes in the inerrancy of Scripture now, we're talking about Difference of interpretation those particular passages Titus Timothy and and Corinthians have hundreds literally hundreds of interpretations We should be able to expel people over sin racism sexual abuse other sexual sins things like that but this is over over a You mean wait a minute we can disagree over the atonement we can disagree over Election and and and we can disagree over dispensationalism.

15:13

We could disagree over Second-coming we can disagree over the nature of sin, but we can't disagree over what you name your staff Hmm, I do want to mention because I can't see it now on my screen This is d is ntr.com is where I pulled this from that.

15:29

I'm assuming that's short for dissenter The is ntr so I do want to give them credit for for pulling this off of their their site or actions on Twitter don't remember who shared it, but The first thing he said was everybody in the SBC believes in In inerrancy, I'll play that again.

15:47

Everybody in the SBC believes in the inerrancy of Scripture No, they don't First of all to say any all Everybody in the SBC believes anything is It's tough because there's so many there are so many voices in the SBC.

16:10

There's so many weird Convoluted Theological just weirdos in the in the SBC that and again, I'm you know, I love I went to Southern Baptist Jackson Baptist Seminary, I feel like I can at least I'm part of the family And yeah, we had some weirdos in the family to say they all believe I mean even and I know he's not part of the SBC But you've heard about what's going on with Andy Stanley.

16:34

Oh, yeah.

16:35

Sure.

16:35

I mean he's coming out and very clearly saying Right, you know that the Bible's not completely inherent and you don't have to believe that and I'm sure there are guys in the in the SBC they're doing the same thing.

16:47

Well, I think it's any stain It's worse though because I mean someone hand he is saying that he still believes it's inerrant But he doesn't necessarily think it's all relevant.

16:54

Yeah It's crazy.

16:57

I mean he does I don't think he really does believe it I think you're right, but in front of people, you know, he wants to continue to maintain that that stance that oh, no No, I believe it's inerrant, you know We just don't have to prove it or not or follow it.

17:11

Yeah care what it says, right? Yeah, we can unhitch from it So right away when when Rick Warren says there are hundreds of interpretations for these passages My thought I want to get your thought everybody to opine on this one my thought right away is that It's not untrue that there are different ways that people have Concluded how to interpret for instance first Timothy to where it says a woman is not to teach or have authority over a man But is to remain silent Right, and even if we talked through that every word what it means We may we may have a little different conclusion as to you know, what Trent what makes a man? Can it can a woman teach boys? When does a boy become a man, right? I mean, so there are there are things so when he says there's hundreds of interpretations.

18:07

Well, yeah I mean there are things we might be able to to disagree about but right but he's saying that functionally This passage doesn't have any relevance to today It's not about interpretation.

18:19

It's about whether or not it actually applies Am I missing that am I wrong about that do you guys think or what do you think? Just because there are many different interpretations doesn't mean they're all correct.

18:31

I think we need we all Have our own way of understanding scripture.

18:38

I mean he says that there's a hundred different interpretations.

18:41

I'm like, okay Which ones are the right ones, you know? But see even though even though I don't mean interrupt you but even the modern argument is nobody knows what's right And that what kind of an agnostic? Yeah The modern expression is that well, nobody really knows what's right.

18:59

So why don't we just be nice? Well, the Christian can't say that though.

19:01

Yeah, I mean a Christian you you can't unhitch yourself It's kind of hyperbole, isn't it though there are hundreds of ways it's like I can think of a thousand things I need to do at home.

19:16

Yeah, is there really a thousand thing? I mean, I'm yeah, I it sounds like exaggeration I mean, oh, there's sounds like something my kids You know When you've trained over a million pastors And that was probably a humble assessment You know, he could probably figure out a way to make it work How many people bought his book versus how many people are on his mailing list or whatever, you know? It's always there's always a way.

19:52

Yeah for that.

19:53

Yeah, but in in reality though, you know You you brought up a good point Jen there has to be something that is right.

20:00

God knew what he meant When he had this passage written and we we would we all would affirm that God actually inspired the scripture That doesn't mean that God That Paul was a mimeograph machine and just went into automatic writing, right? We believe that Paul the man was used by God to write those things But that it was super intended by the Holy Spirit to ensure that what God Wanted to be written was what we receive.

20:27

Yeah, that's right when we talk about transmission or inspiration and transmission of Scripture God the the as first Peter says That the holy men were carried along by the Holy Spirit, you know, this is this is what we believe So if God had it written he knows what it means and our goal is not to Say, well, there could be a hundred things that it could mean Right.

20:53

Our goal is What do God mean? What did God say? That's right.

20:57

I understand God's.

20:58

Yes Original meaning that's right, you know things like authorial intent, you know mean right because Paul did have a meaning and then the next question is well did he mean for it to be applied and To all people for all time.

21:13

Is he using a cultural example? or is he using a right example that was meant to be for all time and This is where I think actually looking at the text is important and I'm gonna pull up the text here Just to be able to read it Directly as I think looking at the context is always important Absolutely, you look at first Timothy 2 and you guys can do it as well if you want to pull out your Bible And I'll be looking at the ESV we're ESV only here I know there's KJV only but we're ESV only we've just decided that this is the best one and this one we're gonna stick with You're gonna put 2011 Absolutely, that was the last update I think wasn't it? Yeah All right.

22:02

So first Timothy chapter 2 Let's begin at verse 8 and you can you see this? I didn't see it.

22:07

Okay, perfect.

22:08

All right All right, so beginning at verse 8 It says I desire then That in every place the men should pray lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling likewise Also that women should adorn themselves and respectable apparel with modesty and self-control not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly Attire right there just stopping right there.

22:32

We we could Well, let me finish verse 10 it says but with What is proper for women who profess godliness with with good works? We would all agree in one sense that there are some cultural things that are mentioned there such as the braiding of hair which had To do with prostitution and things like the art of his cult and things like yeah And so there are there are things that Paul is mentioning here.

22:52

That would have a cultural component.

22:55

Absolutely So so so we we don't want to you know, we're not giving up the ghost We're not giving up the ground, but we are saying okay Alright, so contextually Paul is using because he's talking about something that's more important than culture he's talking about the relationship of Men who are who are not quarreling not angry But are lifting up holy hands rather than lifting their hands to hurt each other They're lifting their hands to pray right so men doing godly things and women doing godly things professing godliness and having an appearance that That right would be in a keep right with that, right now we get to verse 11, which is one that is universally hated by the feminist movements Because it says let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness Now we're not gonna jump there right away, but there's a very similar passage in 1st Corinthians 14 where Paul is actually talking about the gift of tongues He's talking about tongues and prophecy and in right at around verse 40 He says oh and by the way women are to be silent in the church so there's that that passage that would be a parallel to this and I've had so many women who have said In talking about that passage.

24:06

What does that mean? We're not allowed to talk at all ever or say anything and I know that sounds like silly, but again Let me tell you guys a quick story in this church when I first became the pastor of this church We were not reformed.

24:21

We this church used to be part of the old disciples of Christ So I don't know if you're familiar with that But that's like that's a very liberal denomination part of the restoration movement, which is the Church of Christ movement like all that when I was ordained there was a female elder here and If you go into my I'll show you when we leave we can go into my office My ordination certificate has five signatures on it.

24:42

And one of them is a lady signature so technically I Was ordained by a session with a female elder but so was RC Sproul, so I Now I had that conversation with RC Sproul actually, oh did you yeah because Years and years ago.

25:02

I was When I first became a pastor here, she was an elder here and I I didn't know if I should quit Like should I just step down and some people was like, yeah, you need to step down take a stand and I Really? it was almost where I was going to and I was at a pastors conference where RC Sproul was there and we had an opportunity to Ask questions and I asked him I said I said should I should I just leave? And he said same thing happened to me, you know Same thing, you know, there was a lady elder knees I just dealt with it and you know And and it was kind of encouraging and what was amazing about is we began to pray about it and and she ended up resigning So God moved without me having to leave.

25:44

Yeah, and that was a wonderful thing Yes, but but the point is so I've heard and that maybe that's why I said what I said earlier I've heard so many things that I've been called as misogynist sexist I've been told I was ignorant stupid because I don't believe that women should be elders or pastors I was written one of the one of the most one of my most treasured possessions is Is a terrible letter that I was written Maybe I shouldn't say it's one of my most treasured possessions, but I have the letter That when that lady resigned as being an elder another lady in the church wrote me a three-page letter Condemning me as an agent of Satan for having struck down a saint of God Wow so when I say that this Particular topic.

26:35

Yes has real weight in my life.

26:37

You're like for real.

26:38

You've actually been in the Looking at this passage when she would hear let a woman learn quietly with all submit submissions So what you mean is I'm not allowed to talk to anybody when I'm headed to the restroom.

26:51

I Mean, okay.

26:53

Well, let me just make some people angry So I think sorry no bring it so as women God asks us to do hard things and I'm not gonna answer yes or no for that question, but if God wants us women as Christ-followers to be quiet in church if he has if he comes down out of heaven and he appears and he says women I love you.

27:20

You are not allowed to talk in church.

27:21

We should say yes, sir So, I mean we need to swallow our pride and Submit to whatever God's will is for us.

27:33

Now.

27:34

I think this is kind of this is a context that's Complicated this particular passage.

27:40

It's not as clear as it Because there is cultural context that's happening at that time at that church that is being addressed But I think for us women, you know, and I can't speak for men because I'm not a man, but I am a woman I know what a woman is Oh Actually, you don't have to be a biologist that is a popular misconception To know what a woman is But if if as God's servants, you know Christian sisters if God asks you to be silent in this particular Situation then you bite your tongue and you do it So does that feel good? No, is that hard? Yes, but for that we have Jesus so I'm just gonna sorry And I want to tell you something that just became the two-minute clip I share on Twitter Well, you just said no.

28:36

No, that was great.

28:37

That was great.

28:38

Please don't come burn my house down Trust me when you get the three-page letter, it's awesome In that moment And again, I'm not I'm not one of those people that get all excited about you know I was persecuted like put it on you know post that I was persecuted.

28:57

I didn't see it as persecution I saw it as a person's tremendously misguided and and was using me as the sort of the target of their anger You know, so with that that being said though I want to go back to the because because I would say the 11 passage let a woman quietly learn With all submissiveness.

29:16

I do think this is still within the context of the teaching ministry That's the way I tried to explain it I said this is that this doesn't have anything to do with talking somebody on your way to the bathroom or you know or having Fellowship before or after worship in the same way that first Corinthians is in the context of prophecy and speaking in tongues Which was which was a teaching Thing that when the spiritual gifts were active in that way This was something that was going on in the body that was a that was a proclamation of God's Word to the people Let women be quiet and in the same way learning is the context here Let a woman learn quietly and then we get to that all difficult passage I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man rather she is to remain quiet again the same context as verse 11 the quiet there is in regard to teaching and authority right and this is This is the passage that Rick Warren was saying there's a hundred ways to interpret this Again, it's it's hard to imagine what he means, you know to say there's a hundred ways to interpret this because quite frankly there seems to be Relatively only a couple ways to interpret it, right? It's either he meant what he said or he didn't that's right And then even so you could say If you wanted to if you wanted to do that argument where we would say Paul says Well, I'm saying this but God's not saying this Right, right No, but that but people do that right people say well Paul, you know over in first Corinthians again People will say well Paul says here I say this not the Lord or the Lord says this not I you know Try to try to rob him of some type of authority not even recognizing that if Paul did say it he has apostolic authority He's speaking as an ambassador of Christ.

31:17

He's speaking one as one who has been sent by Christ Yeah, so even if it is just him writing it should be enough, right? Right, but he's speaking on authority from Christ, right? He said I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over man rather she is to remain quiet But then here's the here's the kicker Paul doesn't appeal to culture now, that's right.

31:38

He goes to the beginning.

31:39

That's right.

31:40

He was born first word of creation That's exactly right.

31:44

So what do we see in creation? We see the creation of man and then the creation of woman So with that in mind, I have another thought I'm gonna just mention this and I'm hesitant to use this But but I have to have to just mention it When Rick Warren says there's a hundred different ways to interpret this Was this an issue 200 years ago And maybe you know more than me.

32:12

That's why I'm asking it was was this different interpretations? Well, we're when it comes to women being pastors It seems like a relatively recent phenomenon.

32:22

It is right.

32:23

Yeah 200 years ago.

32:24

I don't believe it was an issue.

32:26

Yeah Yeah, and so my question is when he says there's a hundred different interpretations how many of those are less than a hundred years old right How many of those have come in as a result of the advent of the feminist movement, right? Exactly Yeah, yeah, yeah and I think that you have to look at over overall at history Not just church history, but biblical history, you know, you got all the way back to You know the priests were there women priests, yeah, it was Aaron and his sons, right You know, oh, but there was Deborah, you know, but you know, that's interesting because Deborah You know, she's appointed to that task because the men were a bunch of wimps, right? And and and it's actually to shame them, you know, you see the same thing like with The prophetess was a whole guy.

33:16

I think it was You know, he's testing me.

33:20

Yeah, I didn't go to I didn't go to Presbyterian seminary Well During Josiah's time, right they find the book of the law and they want to inquire the Lord And so they go find this prophetess, you know, you know, well, why is it a prophetess? Well, I think it's because What has there has been such a failure of male leadership? Yeah, and you know, and you know The prophets the priests the Kings have not been doing their job So that leads to a question we we recognized at times in Bible Historically, there were times when bad leaders existed.

33:58

So women had to fill those gaps.

34:01

That's kind of what we were just saying So let's take a scenario where there's a church where there are no good men leaders There's no pastor men.

34:10

All the guys are just shirking their responsibilities So would we today say well that's the exception to the rule the rule is no women pastors but we would allow it in the case of You know, all the guys are goofballs.

34:27

What are your thoughts? No Come on Jen you got to do it with me I Might come at it from a different way and say if a church didn't have any good male leaders Should it stay constituted as a church? Mm-hmm Jen? No Well That's an interesting point you make because our question you bring up because okay, like for example like in our area Okay, we do have good churches all around right? So if there isn't a Male here in a particular church local church.

35:17

What about one? That's 10 miles away, you know Go find one You know hire one, right? We're not with without You know just you know, even if a particular church is without a pastor That doesn't mean there aren't other men out there who qualify to do it who could come and fill that role So, yeah, it's not like we're yeah, it's a poor excuse in this in our day and age Yeah, and again you look at missionaries who may go to a place sure that they may find themselves and I've heard this I've heard this said What about female missionaries could a female missionary go in and teach men because those men don't know the gospel Everything and I don't know of any Situations where I would want to send a just single female to go and preach I would want her to be with a team or with you know a group but that that I've heard that argument again Well, and we know a single female who would go and do missions and she ministered and she was in Oh, I can't say I don't think but she ministered to the wives and the children and sometimes the men But I mean, it was a very sexually segregated culture.

36:24

And so she She focused.

36:27

I mean she didn't stop doing ministries She ministered to the women and the children had impacted them there.

36:33

So no one's hands were tied Yeah, well, there's also example of Elizabeth Elliot, you know when? She after you know, Jim and the other men were all speared to death in the river You know, she's she remains and she's continuing and now there's no men who were qualified to teach because they hadn't been trained in any Thing and so she but she didn't want to put herself in the front of everyone So she privately, you know kind of like a Priscilla and Aquila Privately show that trained them and what to do, you know and prepared the men so that then they would stand in front of The people of the church and teach that way and that's one of the things we're behind the scenes people often look at Priscilla Nicola and they'll say well, here's a woman teaching a man But the the the reality of that situation just like you said is it's in a private setting it's not right a person who's standing behind a pulpit who's proclaiming the Word of God who is Position of authority, right, right That's what I think Paul's talking about in first Timothy to is he is speaking about how the church should function Yeah, yeah Cuz the very next thing the very next chapter was the the elders and deacons and the structure of the church, right? Like even the lifting up of holy hands in prayer, you know, I think that you know, what you see there is him saying Well, let me just kind of backtrack a little bit We this whole question about what can women do? Yeah, and the church is Let's take a step back and say what should men be doing right? What are they what are they obligated according to God's Word to be doing and in their roles? And you know, I think Paul makes it plain there Men should be leading in prayer should be leading in worship and should be you know, the ones teaching I mean, that's what he's saying in that whole section there the one baptizing babies Yeah, this is what we do But something that we were talking about before was the question of Protection, you know when I talked about the missionary woman, I wouldn't want to send a single missionary right in a situation Yes, there was no protection But but even in our context we had talked about this off-air Jen, but Jen Bradshaw But I want you to speak to that that what you were talking about with the the role of protection within the church and right, okay, so I'm trying to remember what I said, but So we tend to think you know that we're we like to think about what we can't do, you know But God is loving and he has put that family structure that structure in the church structure in the home and it is for our Protection we don't I know you guys haven't talked much maybe you will about The burden of the pulpit and how those who teach will be judged more severely And so as women I think we need honestly to breathe a sigh of relief that that burden is not on us You know, we have to have babies that is plenty hard We don't need to be worrying about right right gonna get an amen.

39:51

You mean having children is difficult, okay? Yes Taking care of children is difficult Raising, you know these little people up to be people who are not awful to be around is difficult We saw a video last night.

40:09

We're the guy saying he's like he's like we have to we have to keep them alive every day And they're trying to So it really is God's protection of us women and we don't like to think of that we like to think that you know Oh, I'm woman hear me roar, but biblically speaking, you know God has put that order in place to protect us and we need to see that we need that protection You know, I don't think we like to think about that and in the reference to Eve in first Timothy 2 I think is an example of what happens when yeah when that when When that doesn't happen when there isn't the protections right when Adam is not doing his You know God ordained job Protecting his wife.

40:58

So I think that's what he's getting at That's a real good point that that there is a sense in which Adam was was Delinquent.

41:06

Yes, you know some people argue that Adam actually Witnessed the event I was that when I was preaching through Genesis that he actually was consenting to what he was doing Yeah, I don't know, you know again I'm not gonna argue that point whether or not he was present or not present or within the vicinity or whatever What are those, you know multiple debates? Interpretation Of that it says that he was there with her Well with her right what was with her? But there's but in regard to her interaction with Satan how how how much was Adam part of that? So we know that whatever what whatever vicinity he was in he didn't enter and he didn't interject Didn't stop her.

41:45

He didn't protect her.

41:46

He should have stopped the head of the serpent.

41:48

Yeah, right.

41:49

That's that's the job That's what the Savior does he comes and he stopped the 315 that's the role right just stop the head of the serpent if he just stopped the head of the serpent been like not you're wrong and But he didn't and instead he listened to Or she listened the serpent.

42:06

He listened to his wife and right and here we are.

42:08

That's right.

42:09

It hurts dad babies Corn to grow That's right, that's right, but you did mention the weight of the pulpit What do you mean when you say because that's a phrase you guys have used a couple times and off-air when you say the weight Of the pulpit.

42:30

What do you mean? Yeah.

42:31

Well, I think of you know, James chapter 3 just turn there real quick and You'll have the whole Bible memorized.

42:38

Come on your Presbyterian I don't have superior Bible People come to me and they're like, well, you know in First Chronicles 7 whatever and I'm like That was one of my most embarrassing moments and I won't be sharing on air today My children joke about the baldness in the she bears.

43:08

That's right.

43:09

Apparently came up a recently a youth group in our area So yeah, James 3 he says not many of you should become teachers my brothers, you know, that's interesting brothers No, granted.

43:21

I don't know, you know, it's sometimes the translations will include sisters whenever the word The Greek word appears there But but anyways, the point is not many of you should become teachers for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness Okay We have a brother In our church who you know went to seminary was thinking about going to mission field Decided not to get ordained and go to the path of ministry He's very well trained knows his stuff very theologically grounded But didn't want to go into ministry because of the weight of the responsibility of teaching God's people Okay, because what James says right here, we will be judged more strictly So, you know whenever you see I mean I know I think there are men Who pursue ministry who pursue the pulpit who shouldn't be in the pulpit? Okay, and who are not gifted in that and not called to that.

44:19

That's a good point I want to interrupt you but real quick when we say, you know women ought not to be in the pulpit We would also say the vast majority of men.

44:27

That's right.

44:28

Exactly vast majority and that's not to be ugly, right? But it is not something that everybody is supposed to do.

44:34

Right, right.

44:35

That's right.

44:36

It's not even really an any man It's not open to just any man and so it's even limited there and we're not calling ourselves Superman No, no, no, no failures and all those things.

44:46

We're not lifting ourselves up.

44:47

We're just saying it's not God hasn't called everybody, right? That's right.

44:51

He's given specific qualifications in Scripture of who can right be in the pulpit, right? That's exactly who does not need to be in the pulpit Right and look at that as God like part of that protection of God saying I'm not gonna do this to To women to put this burden on you to make you I mean and you even just see the the the weightiness of leadership You know You know God shed his own blood for his sheep, right? Paul acts 20, you know He you know and they're given account, you know Hebrews, you know talks about giving an account for those who are entrusted to your care the weightiness of leading God's people is enormous and so anyone who just thinks that and And I think this is part of the problem is oh I get to have a title I get to have a position I get to be sort of up in front of everyone.

45:41

Look at me.

45:42

Look at me.

45:43

Well, what's it really about now? Is it really about doing the work of ministry? The flock about is it really about you know Being an under shepherd of Christ or is it really just about you wanting to have your name? Plastered all over the place or whatever, you know to have some sort of special status.

46:01

That's a concern I think and I think that has fed into I think some of the stuff with you know That we were talking about here with women ordination and things like that.

46:09

It's good to ask yourself.

46:10

Why yeah Why do and mean and as a Christian you really you've got to Eve was deceived.

46:17

Yeah ladies so, you know, we have to be very honest with the sin in our hearts that Um, why why do you want why would people want women want the title? I mean, I think I even said when I preached on this passage was If Paul had said I do not permit a woman to stick her hand in the fire Whoo Some ways it's like when when James and John come to Jesus and like hey We want to sit at your right your left and you know, do you know what you're asking? You don't even know what you're talking about.

46:56

You know, yeah, this is not something you should be seeking, you know well again, I don't I never People know where I stand on this.

47:05

I've taught on it preached on it wrote on it But I have to because again having been having been bombarded as I feel like I have been with so many I'm not pushing back for my sake.

47:17

I'm pushing back.

47:18

How would we respond to? This right and just like what you just said, well, why would why would a woman want this? Well, you know What if what if somebody said and what and again, please everyone share somebody says? well, well, I just I just know that I have this gift of Communication and therefore This is what I deserve to do is because God I'm a better communicator than David or Keith or anyone else and I can communicate better than them Therefore I should be doing this Was this pitch to the women? To what we said earlier too, I mean If you feel like you're a better communicator, like you have superior communication skill I mean you can have a ministry Without the title.

48:22

I mean you can have your own I could have a female I can have a women's podcast where I can talk to other women.

48:29

I can lead a women's Bible study I can Teach my children.

48:35

I can't I mean there it's not It's a protection like we talked about to not and to not preach or not have to not to do that But there's so many things you can do Why get so hung up on if you're a great communicator that you can serve in the church and communicate in the church It's not the only way that communication takes place I mean in your personal feelings, like you said, I know I know You know, how do you know I mean people will say oh the spirit Spirit Yeah, the spirit does not contradict God's Word, so I'm sorry lady preachers who feel called to be a preacher You're not it's not It's not real No, the spirit is not gonna tell you something that is contrary to God's Word So whatever that voice is that you're hearing in your head, you know You got to be like who is that guy? Or he thought it was a blob of mustard or a bit of bread because he was hallucinating.

49:47

Oh Scrooge So, you know, we're gonna sorry we're in our sin We're gonna think and feel things that are not true and that are not biblical and not that our feelings aren't relevant But they have to line up with Scripture.

50:02

They have to Yeah, the heart is desperately wicked you can know it I mean my feeling about it like you said I Can feel like God told me that I need to Leave my marriage.

50:16

I mean what he's not gonna do that.

50:18

I feel like something and it'd be wrong But the world tells me I should chase my feelings and I should do what I feel and there are people that do exactly what? You just said yeah, I feel like God's leaving me out of this marriage or whatever to do this terrible thing Oh, man, how many times have you heard that? Oh, yeah real people come to you So I just feel like God's telling me it's okay to have an affair.

50:38

Yeah Yeah, it makes me happy God wants me to be happy.

50:46

I want you to be holy.

50:48

That's right Baby by two seconds So and that is you know It is so much a feeling and yet we would all agree I think There are some fantastic women communicators and women that you know have have certain Ministerial platforms that we would say we're all okay with at least I think I'll name it like for instance like Johnny Erickson Tata.

51:18

I think she has a wonderful platform I think she recognizes that she's not a pastor.

51:23

She's not a preacher And and yet she has written books she has talked about suffering, of course I mean goodness her life has been a testimony to suffering well and being a godly Example of suffering and and can teach us all something about that.

51:39

So, you know, we would say, you know to that person great There's your favorite podcaster, which should be me, but it's not Allie Beth Stuckey is somebody she likes right because that's a lady who communicates Well, she tends to have a lot of good things to say wonderful Interviewer much better than me But that's that's somebody who we would say okay, you know and and she does she my wife enjoys a lot of podcasts You know that that's a that's a way that she consumes content.

52:16

She can do that while she's Things in the home baby things like that.

52:20

She can you know, glean a lot of good things even though it did lead to one Of our most massive theological arguments.

52:27

I have to tell you guys the story.

52:29

It's so funny No, no, no.

52:31

No, it's not bad.

52:31

It's not bad Are you guys pre-meal post meal I'm ill what is your eschatology? Pan-meal Into the day she would be to I'm not speaking for her.

52:56

I just just cuz I know But it's that's kind of an open thing Some guys are post summer pre all of our elders right now are on mill but you know, we're optimistic so That's how I like to put it.

53:13

Yes Well one day I come home and she's like, why are we not post mill and like like like gave it to me as soon as I walked in the door But it was because you know, she listens to a lot of these podcasts and that's a big thing right now Yeah, post-millennialism and and that's great.

53:34

It was actually Ali best stuck.

53:35

He had interviewed Jeff Durbin And you know, he's a big post mill guy.

53:39

Yeah, so like I said All of those things can be good all those platforms can be good, but there is something unique about the pulpit There's something there is about that place in God's economy, right of the church, that's right and You know None of us are saying women aren't good communicators.

54:02

None of us aren't saying women can't be wonderful teachers, right? Or they can even get like a degree in Scripture I was just gonna say that you know and being a mom has a special place and I think in God's heart and in the Structure of the world, you know, we um, we talked a little off-camera about how you know, we don't appreciate the weight of the pulpit and then we don't also appreciate the value of Being a mom and a wife and a woman how that role has been so diminished so women feel like they have to reach out and Do other things But we did we talk about that? I think we did but it was off-camera wasn't yeah So, you know I think as women we need to appreciate the value of the role that God has given us and Maybe it's not because we love the role.

55:02

I mean being a mom or being a wife is hard Amen, and you know and you might feel like you're called to be a pastor But sometimes you don't feel called to be a mom or a wife.

55:12

It's like oh, it's this burden that I just bear but it's a burden that's been given to us by our Creator who loves us and we desire to serve him and that is why We do it to the best of our ability with his help.

55:25

So We did not switch switch the value we can't think that oh well being in the pulpit is super more valuable right more valuable much more valuable than Being at home raising children Raising the next was it King Lemuel's Yeah, his mother right right because I think that's what right I think we did say this off-camera too, but when when When Paul says, you know, she will be saved through childbearing, you know, he's obviously not talking about salvation, but he's talking about You know her you know raising children and that is where her primary teaching is gonna be taking place has been the raising of kids and you see That like you said King Lemuel Proverbs 31 which you mentioned at the start, you know, or just maybe off-camera, but You know, these are the things his mother taught him Wow, you know, this is incredible, you know Or even second Timothy when Paul says hey, you know your faith stems from your mother your grandmother They were godly women who instilled in you these these truths and taught you and and you know, and here's Timothy now, you know Serving the Lord and and you know serving the kingdom Without my dad going to church right my the only reason I was even made to go to church My stepmom made us go and my dad was like, I'm not going but you got to go.

56:40

It's good for you That's my dad with a believer.

56:43

He's like, yeah, it's good for you Go but it was her, you know in weekend week.

56:48

There's a lot of grandmoms and mothers that do that.

56:51

That's right That's right taking the kids to church and the fathers are absent So, you know, there is there is a role there that is best filled really by the mothers and the wives And we need to not look on that role with disdain, right? Yeah, you know, we need to look at being future generations Yeah, this is enormous.

57:08

Yeah, right.

57:09

It's a role given to us by God and we need to own it Yeah, and and and you're You said something earlier Jen that made me think about first Corinthians 12 because Paul talks about how every every part of the body does its part and Shouldn't look at another part and say well because I'm not that Yeah, that's right.

57:35

I'm not part of the body, right? You know that I can't say the ear Because if everything was the eye then we would be the sense of hearing right so every part of the body has a Valuable place not just a place.

57:47

It's not just a place holder, right? And This is something we try to really yes struggle to get across to our people Is that everybody here has value everybody here has a gift that God has given you to serve in this church in some way That's right, you know in some way you have value right here Even if you haven't figured out what it is yet, right God didn't bring you here by accident God hasn't haphazardly thrown a group of people together that just happened to be here.

58:12

You're here by his Sovereign hand.

58:16

That's right.

58:16

And as you said earlier to Jen Bratcher you you know Recognizing that when we do what God's called us to do that is That's that that should be enough Where But I don't want that I want this right I don't want to be what God's called me to be I want to be something else.

58:39

I mean that our culture.

58:41

Yeah, isn't that just the garden of Eden all over again, right? Yeah, I've got all this fruit all around me that I can eat but that's right.

58:46

I want to have that one I'm not supposed to have that's right Hungry, that's right.

58:52

That's something I like to remind people Adam didn't eat because he was hungry He ate because he was in rebellion.

58:56

It's not the same.

58:57

That's right.

58:58

That's right.

58:58

Yeah, and a lot of times We see the pulpit in the area around it, you know, I hate when people call it a stage I'm very anti Stage language.

59:09

I don't like to entertainment.

59:10

Yeah, I go kind of thing even though I'm you know Chancel is a is the word that's I'm not even sure that's the right word.

59:18

That's the way I think that's That's what Sproul would call it the chancel right platform.

59:24

Some people call it, you know, is that what it is? Yeah, yeah, there's a platform, you know, whatever we want to call it, you know, but that space You know that that it has become so synonymous with entertainment.

59:39

Yeah, everybody Every every pop singer from my generation and I guess we're all in the same generation.

59:46

So so we would say Britney Spears You know, she got and I only mentioned her cuz she got her start in church I remember her saying if she was a Mickey Mouse Club her and the NSYNC.

01:00:01

What was his name? And Christina Aguilera, right they were all in the Mickey Mouse Club, that's right and then they became big big news Christina Aguilera Katy Perry her dad's a pastor.

01:00:21

Yep, right and they would all say yeah, we got first time we ever sang Yeah, it was in church.

01:00:27

Yeah, that's right because we've we've we've turned the chancel into a stage we've turned the platform into a platform for entertainment and People want to be the center of attention And and and you know, yeah It's easy to for that to become a drug that draws people in that's right.

01:00:53

Yeah You know I think very very much and I'm not and and and I want to I want to clarify something very quickly as soon as it Came out of my mouth.

01:01:00

I thought I should clarify this.

01:01:01

I'm not saying that every woman Who feels the desire to preach has a sinful desire for self? aggrandization Or self promotion.

01:01:11

I'm not saying every woman's under that Some may really feel like God's called them to this but I would agree with Jennifer when you said earlier Examine yourself.

01:01:23

Yeah It's not that his feelings are Irrelevant, but yeah, they need to be under the guidance of Scripture.

01:01:29

That's right We know we know people and and people we love very much Who would disagree with us on this some who are ladies who have taken the pulpit? And and I certainly don't question their integrity as people I don't I don't even necessarily question them as believers, but I do think in this area.

01:01:45

They're being disobedient to Scripture and In such a way that it makes the church out of order.

01:01:53

Yeah.

01:01:54

Yeah.

01:01:54

Yeah and and and maybe that's a good place for us to begin to draw to a close because I want to talk about maybe the the the Fact that when when we address this and this goes back to something Rick Warren said We can disagree on so many things and and he was he's like we disagree on the atonement.

01:02:11

I'm not sure that's correct I mean, yes we can disagree on election because of course people do and and and you know and I get that not everybody has to be a Calvinist to be a believer Even though it is superior theology Not everybody has to be you know everything right but there's something about the order of the church that comes out of this it comes from the very top we have said that the word of God is not our authority When the when the when the pastor Female pastor stands behind the pulpit and she begins to proclaim even if what she's saying is correct And even that there there's you know, there's something to be said for that because a lot of the lot of the female pastors I hear Are bad teachers that false teacher? I mean again, I could point to some of the most dangerous false teachers in the world I know are women and I get people get mad at me all the time So they Joyce Myers a false teacher Paula White's a false teacher Jan Crouch was a false teacher all these people I mean going all the way back to you know, Catherine Kuhlman and some of the crazy people from the past, you know And again, that's the that's the first issue.

01:03:28

So when so when when Rick says well, why is this why is this the thing? Well, because that's the starting point.

01:03:36

Yeah is is the starting point is we've said we've said That like you said earlier Jen you said not every I'm trying to say it the way you said it.

01:03:47

Maybe I should you said not every It was off-camera, but I want you to repeat it.

01:03:52

Not every person Not every Tom Dick or Harry knew what no one what you said, how'd you say not every Joe Schmo? Oh, no, every Joe Schmo should be Yeah, not every Joe Schmo not every Jane Schmo love it Should be there and and does it matter right who's proclaiming the word that's right And that's why there's those qualifications.

01:04:17

It does matter.

01:04:18

Yeah.

01:04:19

Yeah, and even with the priesthood you see that You know only it was only Aaron's sons, you know, there were there was limits, you know It wasn't anyone it wasn't just even any Levi could go do that work.

01:04:31

Yeah, it was not right I'm just use it as analogy or you know as comparison, you know that those things do matter who's in these positions And we have to take this seriously.

01:04:41

That's how the church is protected.

01:04:42

That's how You know, the Word of God is protected from you know, as far as how it's taught and preached, you know, if we're playing loose and fast with Or is it fast it loose You know with these standards, you know, we really we really bring a lot of trouble into the church disorder Like you're saying it really messes up the order of the church So I mean God's laid it out for us how the church is supposed to function.

01:05:07

That's There isn't really a whole lot there isn't hundreds of interpretations of that.

01:05:13

Yeah, I really don't think so Terrible exaggeration and I can just mention one other thing as far as what Rick Warren's saying You know just just by comparison.

01:05:23

I was just thinking You know, I've had you know I know that there have been Baptists have gone and others have gone the other directions on their views of baptism For example, but like if I if I were to just all of a sudden change my mind on baptism, let's say I couldn't stay in the PCA.

01:05:38

Yeah, you know, I wouldn't be able to stay well You know, you imagine me arguing this in an interview Well, you know we disagree all over against some people have different views of baptism There's at least a hundred different views of baptism, right? Of course there isn't but there's one right one This is what the SPC has said they believe right Very plain this this is where we stand if you don't agree with that.

01:06:08

You can't stand with us It's that simple, you know and we're seeing some of this happen even in the PCA where there are some guys who Are kind of trying to push the boundaries on some of these issues and that's what a lot of them are saying It's like look if this is how you feel Then you should go somewhere else Because you don't really belong here if you don't really agree with everything that the church has said We believe this is what Scripture teaches, you know, absolutely.

01:06:32

Yeah, I think it's what Rick Warren needs to understand I don't think he understands that no Rick Warren, right, right well, I have a Closing question.

01:06:42

Okay, and let everybody have a final word on this and It comes from the mouth of Dr.

01:06:50

MacArthur, okay John MacArthur has been you know The pastor of Grace Community Church for years and years and years a few few years ago he had a dust up where he went back and forth with Beth Moore over some issues because the question was whether or not Beth Moore was going To be the president of the SPC and all these things and and and and he you know He told her to go home and that became a big thing Oh, you know, you just want women in the home and all this so there's all this stuff with John MacArthur But prior to all of that He did make a statement that went in one sense viral if you want to use the word viral He said if you have a female pastor in your church You don't have a pastor and you don't have a church Now that of course became Red hot.

01:07:36

Yeah, right because that upset a lot of people that didn't put that fire out.

01:07:40

It only made it No But my question is do you think that's do you think that's too far? Is he going too far or do you think that that's actually correct? if it sure it again if you have a female pastor in your church and I think what he meant is senior pastor But but I would just say being a woman who occupies a role of elder which we would agree is a pastoral role Yeah, if you have a female pastor in your church, you don't have a pastor And you don't have a church is that going too far or is that Is that correct? I know that's a tough question.

01:08:14

And again, don't feel like you're hanging You know hanging yourself on this.

01:08:18

You didn't know I was gonna ask this question.

01:08:20

So, you know But what are your thoughts? I'll let the ladies stew for a minute Dave.

01:08:25

What are your thoughts? Well in one sense, yeah, you know, I think that You'd have to take a case-by-case, but I but I think overall in general in principle, yes I think he's right in the sense that okay Do you think of the marks of the church right the genuine marks the church the Reformation? Reformers came up with the right preaching of the word, you know, the right administrative sacraments and church discipline, right? Do you have the right preaching of the word? Yeah, you know, I think that you know, that's definitely if not completely Disqualifying it certainly calls it into question, you know, and then even discipline, you know You have to wonder if you don't have if you don't have and I think even the sacraments would fall under that too Another right administrate for the sacraments, you know, do you can you can we you know as a woman pastor administering the sacraments really? You know the right administration Yeah, yeah, okay.

01:09:19

Yeah, so I would I'd be inclined to agree with him so all right who wants to go first Oh, well, I was gonna go last Okay, yeah, all right, so just say not not it's not a pastor did you agree? She's not wouldn't be a pastor and I'm not and I wouldn't say to me.

01:09:44

Can I just add a little yes Go ahead clarification point kind of to what you said to not not saying they wouldn't be Christians necessarily.

01:09:50

Yeah, right But do you have a legitimate church? Yeah, but that would be the difference I just wanted to clarify that right? Yeah.

01:09:59

Yeah, I agree Not a pastor Not a pastor not a church.

01:10:06

All right, I'd like to make that three votes not a pastor Not a pastor not a pastor Not a church.

01:10:19

Yeah Well, I said I would go last then I will go last I I will say I agree As you said David and principal in general Most specifically to the first clause.

01:10:30

Yeah, not a pastor, right when a woman says I'm a pastor I say I don't believe you're biblically qualified any more than a man who? Got me got got became a pastor while being an adulterer I would say he also was not qualified and is not a pastor I remember having a conversation with a man who had abandoned his family Yeah, and he was upset that the church was upset with him.

01:10:52

He was a pastor.

01:10:53

He was upset that the church Yeah, why are they so mad at me? Yeah.

01:10:55

Yeah, and I was what I saw him in Walmart We come we were walking by each other and he goes I think I know who that is actually He said to me he said He said he started talking to me about what was going on in the church and how people were upset and I said, yeah They're right.

01:11:10

Yeah Why is this surprising why is this because well, you're like one of them you're judgmental I was like Nah, brah.

01:11:19

God has judged judging right Like this is not me being judgmental this is me just agreeing with God that you're wrong, you know, yeah And then is it not a church? I think this goes back to what you said David about the the proper structure.

01:11:36

Yeah People tend to misunderstand Church in that they think any group of believers constitutes a church So that's not what the Bible teach.

01:11:47

That's right.

01:11:47

That's right people say well, we're gonna have a church in our house But we're not gonna have elders and I can have deacons.

01:11:51

We're not gonna have proper administration the sacraments We're not gonna have any of these things, but we're still gonna be a church because I get together and read the Bible together Yeah, I say that's not church.

01:11:58

Yeah, that's not church The church has a structure the Bible declares what the church is God gets to determine what the church is And if that's what MacArthur meant, and I do believe that's what he meant, right? You have an out-of-order Leader, right? Therefore you have an out-of-order body.

01:12:15

Yeah.

01:12:15

Yeah, and I think in that we can agree That as hard as it is to hear.

01:12:21

Yeah, it would not really be a New Testament Church.

01:12:25

Yeah so So you you know, you said Jennifer don't come burn your house.

01:12:31

Well, I could say the same thing You know people get upset about these things.

01:12:36

We're not saying we don't love people We're not saying we don't right We don't we don't write sympathize with some of the the the problems that people have an issues that people have But at the end of the day, it's about being faithful to the word And as you said, you know, there are so many good churches Yeah, why would we be beholden to well, we need to stay with this church.

01:12:54

No, you really don't Yeah, if they're not in line with the Word of God then and you know, okay Yeah, lady pastors are not a thing but women can do amazing ministry.

01:13:04

So it's not like anyone's hands are tied, you know You can still do so many things.

01:13:10

So absolutely Well, David Jen, I want to thank you guys for coming on the program today and Jennifer my lovely.