2 Pastors and Their Wives Discuss Women Pastors

Women Pastors, Church Authority, and Biblical Qualifications

Everybody in the SBC believes in the inerrancy of scripture but I am a woman.

I know what a woman is. I think there are men who pursue ministry who pursue the pulpit shouldn't be in the pulpit so I'm sorry lady. Preachers who feel called to be a preacher you're not. It's not it's not real.

If the church didn't have any.

Good male leaders shouldn't stay constituted as a church. Jim no welcome back to conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist and I'm joined today by my beautiful bride Jennifer Foskey and our very good friends David and Jennifer Bradshere who are coming to us from Grace Community Church in Yulee Florida.

David is the pastor of Grace Community Church and don't let the name fool you. He is a Presbyterian so he's bringing.

With him today the Superior Theology. That's right. Yes yes we are Calvinist.

Also this is for Calvinists at the table. Men and women. We are bringing it today. That's right. We've been wanting to do this for a while. I'm really excited to have you guys. I'm thankful to to be able to have this conversation.

We've known each other for years. David and I of course being pastors in the same area. We've known each other known of each other for years. But we probably have gotten closer because our wives. Yeah.

Now your kids did do karate with us. That's right. Your kids did karate with us and that was fun. And that I got to know you here. You used to come and study in my office. That's right. Which was always kind of cool.

I'd go in there and say see. Somebody who really knows what they're doing is actually and there's somebody with Superior Theology uses my desk once or twice a week during karate but. But it was kind of cool.

You know you'd come up and the kids would be here. They'd be doing karate and you'd be here. But you ladies began to go to a pastor's wives dinner. Mm-hmm. I miss this.

I miss those too Don if you're listening. Yeah they kind of fell apart during kovat but hopefully hopefully we'll get him up right going again. Yeah well I've.

Actually recently started a thing with the men so I took a cue from you ladies and and now we're meeting once a month for lunch and it's hard to get guys together. It's hard to get pastor together but we've been able to do that and it's been a lot of fun.

So with with that in mind though something else has brought you two together that I think is worth mentioning and that is we all recently became parents again. Now we both have big families. You guys have how.

Many children before. Well now five. But you had. You had four. And what was your youngest before your new baby. The age. Yeah yeah almost 15. I'm not laughing so.

What was that. I do have to ask and I hope I hope this is okay to ask. What was that conversation like when you saw the test. You know a lot of. Are you.

Kidding this isn't funny. God yeah. Well we sort of have a similar story now our.

Youngest is five so not quite 15 that that's that's a pretty good stretch but ours were ten seven five and we thought we were done we thought God had had stopped that. However I get a call one day. Hey can you bring home a test.

And I said a COVID test because I figured you know yeah well it wasn't a COVID test. And and and I brought home three. Do you do that. Do you do you over test. I mean I.

Just tell him what happens. I don't even know anything about this until the test has come back positive. And my understanding is if it's positive it's positive. Yeah false negatives but you can't have false positive.

I just don't.

Trust anything. I'm like I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but I'm one of those guys. It's like I want it. I want to know for sure. So right. You know even with you know like any kind of like tests like that I'm like I'm buying three or four but since you guys had the babies you ladies have really begun your friendship is budded you become closer.

You guys talk on this every day and I think that's great. And what is wonderful and has brought us closer and feel like our friendship is closer and the only thing we have to do now is schedule our baptism debate because I think that's what it has to be.

A two-on-two. They have to come and do it with us. See you didn't know what today is actually going to be is I've got a big old pool in there. We're gonna go sit in the baptistry and we're gonna talk about.

No. No no it is. It is interesting though I bring that up because we have so many things that we agree on. I mean I would say yeah obviously the gospel. We agree on what the gospel is and that's unifies us.

We have so many things that we share that either one of us could share the other one's pulpit and there and there may be some ground rules before going in if we said you know sort of like Rob Hamm you remember Rob Hamm from yes own.

Yeah he you know he and I debated on the Sabbath the definition and how we are to observe the Sabbath things like that and then the very next day he preached in my pulpit and I preached in his. So it was a way of showing that even though we debate we love each other and there's no animosity.

And when it's over it's done. There's no you know we believe in the same Christ we're going to the same heaven and when we get there you'll find out we were right. So that's our you know. But that does bring up sort of the issue today because what we're talking about is something that we we would not necessarily divide friendships over but it could divide fellowships and that is the subject of whether or not women should be preaching as pastors in the church and and and there's actually multifold ways of talking about this because we could say should women be pastors.

And then we have to define is there a difference between a pastor and an elder. See in our church there isn't really a difference. I know you guys you define elders as we have vocational non-vocational you have ruling and teaching right now in your church.

How many elders do you have. We three ruling.

Elders and then myself as a teaching elder. You're the only teaching elder. Yeah. Is that normally. How it is that they're not necessarily no. So like for example like you know Westminster Steve's been whoever you know he'd they.

I was. Actually I got to participate in ordination service for their associate pastor you know. So. So you know they have an associate now and other churches have associates and but not all. It just depends on budget.

You know. Really we could have a number of teaching elders. I mean there's some PCA churches that have.

Four or five six on staff. Sure. Just have you ever seen one where the pulpit was shared where the pastor where there were different pastor each week preach a different sermon or is it usually the same guy who's the preaching pastor.

Yeah.

There's usually a senior pastor and then several associates and the senior usually is the one that preaches the most. Yeah. And the reason why I'm bringing.

This up is is and not trying to leave you ladies out. I'm just the thing I'm asking is one of the things that I've heard is that well it's okay to have a woman in a role of an elder as long as she's not a teaching elder.

All right. You know if she's ruling out or not a teaching elder. Or it's okay to have a woman as a pastor as long as she's not a senior pastor or she's not the preaching pastor. So so we have to right away sort of identify the fact that there are different church structures.

You know we are we are an elder led church but in one sense we're congregational in that our congregation we don't have a presbytery. So the buck sort of stops with the church. And and had that conversation on Presby cast.

That's right. That's right. Yeah that this polity. So so all of that leads to the conversation of all. Right. So what are we talking about. And I I think that from a biblical perspective we would be and I want to have you ladies maybe jump in on this.

We would be saying any role where a woman would take authority over a man. And that would certainly be the eldership. And any any role that requires the teaching of men. Is that how you guys see the understanding of this.

Well absolutely. I mean we're told in.

Scripture that wives are supposed to be submissive to their husbands and how can they do that if they have a position of authority over them. All of this comes.

Down to. Okay where where do we find our answers. And our answers have to come from scripture. Absolutely. They have to come from the text. And every time we go to this there's a thousand things that people want to debate.

Well Deborah was a leader. So right. Then women should be able to be leaders. We know what we're talking about with that would be the Old Testament reference to Deborah. And then people will say well well what about Deacons.

Or what about Deaconess is. What about Phoebe. What about Junia. Right. Have you guys heard of the Junia project. No. In Acts 16 I'm sorry excuse me Romans 16 Paul is listing some of the some of his cohorts or co-servants and the Lord and he mentions a person named Junia.

Now we're we are unaware of that use of anywhere else in the scripture except for that one place. Not even certain that it's a woman's name because the it could be Junia a male name. But the the Junia project is a website that's that's convinced one that it is a woman to that she served as an apostle and that the term that Paul uses there is a co-laborer so that she was a co-apostle.

Again. That's good. I just saw your if your eyes rolled. I think Jennifer just.

Like I'll hold my comments till the end and that Junia is the example that we.

Should all be making so. So. So they take a very obscure passage in the book of Romans right. And they use that to interpret what seems to be a very clear passage in first Timothy and then of course Titus and right as well are the passages that that would be.

So I mean yeah so y 'all haven't heard of this I.

Haven't heard of that. No but it certainly sounds like how the Mormons sort of argue for baptisms for the dead you know from an obscure passage from.

1st Corinthians you know. Well with this in mind I want us to listen to a recent interaction with Rick Warren because as many people may or may not know and this would probably affect our side a little bit more than your side.

Rick Warren was ousted from the SBC. Who I say Rick Warren Saddleback Church which was founded by Rick Warren in the 80s. It's one of the major megachurches of the world. People don't realize this. But my Big Eva character in my denominational videos is modeled after Rick Warren.

I wear the flowery shirt. No that's right. That's who I am. That's that's right. So Rick Warren is the is the alpha model for the kind of the Big Eva for Biggie. Absolutely yeah. And to see him at the last SBC meeting.

Did you guys happen to see that. I know I heard about it I read about it. I mean he he stood at this podium to address the the people in charge or whatever. I don't I'm not quite sure how the structure works but he's addressing the the convention and he stands at the podium.

And he and he really drops these braggadocious. You know I've trained over a million pastors and all these. Oh I have heard of this. Yeah. Yeah. I think I saw some memes. So we have the we have Rick Warren who sort of boastfully takes the podium at the SBC.

And then within a year later less than a year later his his church that he founded has now been disfellowshipped. And when it did it was like oh man because that's really what he was doing at the SBC.

He was sort of he's like I even said he's like I feel like a man who's standing ready to be executed and I'm giving my last words and everything. It's like it's like slow down. You're.

He was aware before that. Yeah yeah you know the rules. Right. It's not like.

This was we didn't design this didn't come up yesterday right. This has been a rule for a long time. You broke the rules. You're you you're right. That's what happens. The question is should it be a rule.

I think is that is what we're really talking about is is it right to make this rule. But of course the SBC has that rule. But I want you to hear how he defends himself. This was in a recent podcast not somebody shared it on Twitter and it's a it's only like a 20 second clip.

But I want you to hear his argument for us to deal with everybody.

In the SBC believes in the inerrancy of Scripture. Now we're talking about difference of interpretation. Those particular passages Titus Timothy and and Corinthians have hundreds literally hundreds of interpretations.

We should be able to expel people over sin racism sexual abuse other sexual sins things like that. But this is over. Over. You mean wait a minute. We can disagree over the atonement. We can disagree over election and and and.

We can disagree over dispensationalism. We could disagree over second coming. We can disagree over the of sin. But we can't disagree over what you name your staff. Hmm. I do want to.

Mention because I can't see it now on my screen this is DISNTR. .com is where I pulled this from that. I'm assuming that's short for dissenter DISNTR so I do want to give them credit for for pulling this off of their their site or actions on Twitter.

I don't remember who shared it but mm-hmm. But first thing he said was everybody in the SBC believes in an inerrancy. I'll play that again. Everybody in the SBC believes in the inerrancy of scripture.

First of all to say any all everybody in the SBC believes. Anything is is tough because there are so many there are so many voices in the SBC there's so many weird convoluted theological just weirdos in the in the SBC that and again I'm you know I love I went to Southern Baptist Jackson Baptist Seminary.

I feel like I can at least I'm part of the family and yeah we had some weirdos in the family to say they all believe. I mean even and I know he's not part of the SBC. But you've heard about what's going on with Andy Stanley.

Oh yeah sure. I mean he's coming out and very clearly saying right. You know that the Bible's not completely inherent and you don't have to believe that. And I'm sure there are guys in the in the SBC they're doing the same thing.

I think it's worse though.

Because I mean someone hand he is saying that he still believes it's inerrant but he doesn't necessarily think it's all relevant. Yeah it's crazy. I mean he does I don't think he really does believe it.

I think you're right. But in front of people you know he wants to continue to maintain that that stance that oh no no I believe it's inerrant you know. Yeah we just don't have to prove it or not or follow it or listen to it or care what it says.

Right. Yeah we can unhitch.

From it. That's right. That was the yeah so right away when when Rick Warren says there are hundreds of interpretations for these passages my thought I want to get your thought everybody to opine on this one.

My thought right away is that it's not untrue that there are different ways that people have concluded how to interpret. For instance 1st Timothy 2 where it says a woman is not to teach or have authority over a man but is to remain silent.

Right. And even if we talked through that every word what it means we may we may have a little different conclusion. As to you know what Trent what makes a man. Can it kind of can a woman teach boys. When does a boy become a man.

Right. I mean so there are things. So when he says there's hundreds of interpretations well yeah I mean there are things we might be able to to disagree about. But right. But he's saying that functionally this passage doesn't have any relevance to today.

It's not about interpretation it's about whether or not it actually applies. Am I missing that. Am I wrong about. That do you guys think. Or what do you think. Just because.

There are many different interpretations doesn't mean they're all correct. I think we need. We all have our own way of understanding scripture. I mean he says that there's a hundred different interpretations.

I'm like okay which ones.

Are the right ones you know. But see even that even though I don't mean interrupt you but even the modern argument is nobody knows what's right. And that what kind of an agnostic. Yeah the modern expression is that.

Well nobody really knows what's right. So why don't we just be nice. But the Christian can't say that.

Though yeah I mean a Christian. You you can't unhitch yourself it's kind of.

Hyperbole isn't it though. There are hundreds of ways. It's like I can think of a thousand things I need to do at home. Yeah. Is there really a thousand.

Thing I mean I'm yeah I it sounds like exaggeration. I mean oh there's sounds like something my kids not a hundred different interpretations you know to.

Excuse themselves when you've trained over a million pastors though. Yeah maybe.

We don't know we're talking yeah and that was probably a humble assessment.

You know he could probably figure out a way to make it work how many people bought his book versus how many people are on his mailing list or whatever. You know it's always there's always a way. Yeah for that.

Yeah. But in reality though you know you you brought up a good point. Jen there has to be something that is right. God knew what he meant when he had this passage written and we would we all would affirm that God actually inspired the scripture.

That doesn't mean that God that Paul was a mimeograph machine and just went into automatic writing. Right. We and we believe that Paul the man was used by God to write these things but that it was superintended by the Holy Spirit.

Sure that what God wanted to be written was what we received. Yeah that's right. When we talk about transmission translate or inspiration and transmission of scripture God the as first Peter says that the holy men were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

You know that's just this is what we believe. So if God had it written he knows what it means. And our goal is not to say well there could be a.

Hundred things that it could mean. Right. Our goal is. What do you God mean. What did God say. That's right. Understand. God's yes. What. The original meaning.

That's right. And you know things like authorial intent. You know what Paul mean. Right. Because Paul did have a meaning. And then the next question is well did he mean for it to be applied to all people for all time.

Is he using a cultural example or is he using a right example that was meant to be for all time. And this is where I think actually looking at the text is important and I'm gonna pull up the text here just to be able to read it directly as I think looking at the context is always important.

Absolutely. You look at first Timothy 2 and you guys can do it as well if you want to pull out your Bible and I'll be looking at the ESV. We're ESV only here. I know there's KJV only but we're ESV only.

We've just decided that this is the best one and this one we're.

Gonna stick with. You're gonna put. 2011 yeah yeah yeah yeah. Instead of 1611 they'll be 2000. Absolutely. That was the last update I think wasn't it. Yeah all.

Right so first Timothy chapter 2 let's begin at verse 8 and you can you see this I can see it. Okay perfect all right all right. So beginning at verse 8 it says. I desire then that in every place the men should pray lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling.

Likewise also that women should adorn themselves and respectable apparel with modesty and self-control not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire. Right there just stopping right there we we could well let me finish the first ten says.

But with what is proper for women who profess godliness with with good works we would all agree in one sense that there are some cultural things that are mentioned there such as the braiding of hair which had to do with right prostitution and things like the artist cult and things like yeah and so there are there are things that Paul is mentioning here that would have a cultural component.

Absolutely so so so we we don't want to you know we're not giving up the ghost. We're not giving up the ground but we are saying okay all right. So contextually Paul is using because he's talking about something that's more important than culture.

He's talking about the relationship of men who are who are not quarreling not angry but are lifting up holy hands rather than lifting their hands hurt each other. They're lifting their hands to pray right.

So men doing godly things and women doing godly things professing godliness and having an appearance that that right would be in a key right with that right. Now we get to verse 11 which is one that is universally hated by the many feminist movements because it says let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

Now we're not gonna jump there right away. But there's a very similar passage in first Corinthians 14 where Paul is actually talking about the gift of tongues. He's talking about tongues and prophecy and it and right at around verse 40 he says oh and by the way women are to be silent in the church.

So there's that that passage that would be a parallel to this and I've had so many women who have said in talking about that passage what does that mean. We're not allowed to talk at all ever or say anything.

And I know that sounds like silly but again let me tell you guys a quick story in this church when I first became the pastor of this church we were not reformed. We this church used to be part of the old disciples of Christ so I don't know if you're familiar with that but that's like that's very liberal denomination part of the restoration movement which is the Church of Christ movement like all that when I was ordained there was a female elder here and if you go into my I'll show you when we leave we can go into my office.

My ordination certificate has five signatures on it and one of them is a lady signature. So technically I was ordained by a session with a female elder but so was R .C. Sproul. So now I had that conversation with R .C. Sproul actually oh did you.

Yeah because years and years ago I was when I first became a pastor here she was an elder here and I I didn't know if I should quit. Hmm like should I just step down. And some people was like yeah you need to step down take a stand and I I really it was almost where I was going to and I was at a pastor's conference where R .C. Sproul was there and we had an opportunity to ask questions and I asked him I said I said should I should I just leave.

And he said same thing happened to me. You know I was doing the same thing you know I had there was a lady elder and he said I just dealt with it and you know and and it was kind of encouraging and what was amazing about it is we began to pray about it and and she ended up resigning so God moved without me having to leave.

Yeah and that was a wonderful thing. Yes but um but the point is so I've heard maybe that's why I said what I said earlier. I've heard so many things that I've been called a misogynist sexist. I've been told I was ignorant stupid because I don't believe that women should be elders or pastors.

I was written one of the one of the most one of my most treasured possessions is is a terrible letter that I was written maybe I shouldn't say it's one of my most treasured possessions. But I have the letter that when that lady resigned as being an elder another lady in the church wrote me a three-page letter condemning me as an agent of Satan for having struck down a saint of God.

Wow. So when I say that this particular topic yes has real weight in my life. Sure like.

For real you've actually been in the midst of that kind of. Yeah and so.

Looking at this passage when she would hear. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissive. So what you mean is I'm not allowed to talk to anybody when I'm.

Headed to the restroom I mean okay well let me just make some people angry. So I think. Sorry. No. Bring it. So as women God asks us to do hard things and I'm not gonna answer yes or no for that question.

But if God wants us women as Christ followers to be quiet in church if he has if he comes down out of heaven and he appears and he says women I love you you are not allowed to talk in church. We should say yes sir.

So I mean we need to swallow our pride and submit to whatever God's will is for us now. I think this is kind of this is a context that's complicated this particular passage. It's not as clear as it because there is cultural context that's happening at that time at that church that is being addressed.

But I think for us women you know and I can't speak for men because I'm not a man but I am a woman. I know what a woman is. Oh are you a biologist. Actually you don't have to be a biologist. That is a popular misconception to know what a woman is.

But if if as God's servants you know Christian sisters if God asks you to be silent in this particular situation then you bite your tongue and you do it. So does that feel good. No. Is that hard. Yes.

But for that we have Jesus. So I'm just gonna sorry I want to.

Hear your thought. And I want to tell you something that just became the two-minute clip I share on Twitter. Well you just said no. No that was great. That was great. Please don't come burn my house down.

Trust me when you get the three-page letter it's awesome. And again I'm not I'm not one of those people that get all excited about. You know I was persecuted. Like put it on you know post that I was persecuted.

I didn't see it as persecution. I saw it as a person is tremendously misguided and and was using me as the sort of the target of their anger you know. So with that that being said though I want to go back to the because because I would say the 11 passage let a woman quietly learn with all submissiveness.

I do think this is still within the context of the teaching ministry. That's the way I tried to explain it. I said this isn't this isn't have anything to do with talking somebody in your way in the bathroom or you know or having fellowship before or after worship in the same way that first Corinthians is in the context of prophecy and speaking in tongues which was which was a teaching thing that when the spiritual gifts were active in that way this was something that was going on in the body.

That was a that was a proclamation of God's Word to the people. Let women. That's why it and in the same way learning is the context here let a woman learn quietly. And then we get to that all difficult passage.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather she is to remain quiet again the same context is verse 11. The quiet there is in regard to and authority. Right. And this is this is the passage that Rick Warren was saying there's a hundred ways to interpret this again.

It's it's hard to imagine what he means you know to say there's a hundred ways to interpret this because quite frankly there seems to be relatively only a couple ways to interpret it. Right.

It's either he meant what he said or he didn't. Right that's right. And then so.

You could say if you wanted to if you wanted to do that argument where we would say Paul says well I'm saying this but God's not saying this. Right. No. But that. But people do that. Right. People say well Paul you know over in first Corinthians again people will say well.

Paul says here I say this not the Lord. Or the Lord says this not I you know. And they try to try to rob him of some type of authority not even recognizing that. If Paul did say it he has apostolic authority.

He's speaking as an ambassador of Christ. He's speaking one as one who has been sent by Christ. Yeah. So even if it is just him writing it should be enough. Right. Right. But he's speaking on authority from Christ.

Right. He said I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over man. Rather she is to remain quiet. But then here's the here's the kicker Paul doesn't appeal to.

Culture now. That's right. He goes to the beginning. That's right. He appealed on first word of creation. That's exactly right. So what do we see in creation. We.

See the creation of man and then the creation of woman. So with that in mind I have another thought. I want to just mention this and I'm hesitant to use this but but I have to have to just mention it when Rick Warren says there's a hundred different ways to interpret this.

Was this an issue 200 years ago. And maybe you know more than me. That's why I'm asking it was. Was this all the different interpretations. Well we're. When it comes to women being pastors it.

Seems like a relatively recent phenomena this right. Yeah 200 years ago. Now I.

Don't believe it was an issue. Yeah yeah. And so my question is when he says there's a hundred different interpretations how many of those are less than a hundred years old right. How many of those have come in as a result.

Of the advent of the feminist movement. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that you have to look at over overall at history not just church history but biblical history. You know you got all the way back to.

You know the priests were there. Women priests. Yeah it was Aaron and his sons. Right. You know. Oh but there was Deborah you know. Well but you know that's interesting because Deborah you know she's appointed to that task because the men were a bunch of wimps.

Right. And and and it's actually to shame them. You know you see the same thing like with the prophetess was a whole guy. I think it was. You know he's.

Testing me. Yeah all right. I didn't go to. I didn't go to Presbyterian seminary.

Sound right. Well it's turn just size time right. They find the book of the law and they want to inquire the Lord and so they go find this prophetess you know. Well why is it a prophetess. Well I think it's because what has there has been such a failure of male leadership.

Yeah. And you know and you know the prophets the priests the Kings have not been doing their job so that leads to a.

Question. We recognized at times in Bible historically there were times when bad leaders existed so women had to fill those gaps. That's kind of what we were just saying. So let's take a scenario where there's a church where there are no good men leaders there's no pastor men.

All the guys are just shirking their responsibilities. So would we today say. Well that's the exception to the rule. The rule is no women pastors but we would allow it in the case of you know all the guys are goofballs.

What are your thoughts. No come on Jen you got to do it with me. Yeah. I might come at it from a different way and say if a church didn't have any good male leaders should it stay constituted as a church.

Mm-hmm. Jen. No that's an interesting point you make because our question you bring up.

Because okay like for example like in our area. Okay we do have good churches all around right. So if there isn't a male here in a particular church local church what about one that's ten miles away you know.

Go find one bring one in. You don't hire one. Right. We're not with without you know. Just you know even if a particular church is without a pastor that doesn't mean there aren't other men out there who qualify to do it who could come and fill that role.