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“AFTER MORMONISM…ATHEISM?” PLUS “An Earnest Plea to ‘GAY CHRISTIANS'”
with guest PASTOR JASON WALLACE of Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC), Magna, UT
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.
Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 13th day of December 2016, and before I introduce my guest and our topic for the day, seeing that number 13 reminds me to remind you that just four weeks from now on Friday, January 13th, at the Carlisle Theater in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I am relaunching the Great Debate series that became renowned worldwide.
These debates were between Dr. James R. White, an evangelical Protestant apologist and Catholics throughout the United States who opposed him on various issues. We are having our first debate this time featuring Dr. Tony Costa, a mutual friend of Dr. James White and mine, and this is going to be, as I said, Friday, January 13th, 7 p .m. at the Carlisle Theater, a gorgeous historic 900-seat theater in the heart of historic Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and the tickets are $5.
The theme of the debate will be, Mary, Sinless Queen of Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace. For more details, email me at the new Iron Sharpens Iron email address, chrisarnson at comcast .net. That's chrisarnson at C-O-M-S-N-M-I-C-H-E-L-C-A-S-T-D-O-T-N-E-T, and I hope that you folks listening will get used to using that new email address because Gmail has me still suspended for sending out too many emails, so hopefully that will be resolved soon, but if not, you know, just keep using the new email address anyway.
And also, for those of you who are men in ministry leadership, whether you're a pastor or a man who is the leader in a parachurch organization, perhaps you're a deacon of a church, perhaps you're an elder.
Some folks I know differentiate between pastor and elder, uh, but I don't, but if you do, whatever position you may hold to, if you're a man in Christian leadership, you are invited to a free pastor's luncheon at the Carlyle Vault one day before that debate, Thursday, January 12th, and the Carlyle Vault is a gorgeous historic bank in Carlyle that was transformed into a catering hall, and they are being incredibly generous to me because they're only charging me for the cleaning crew after the event.
It's just absolutely amazing. It's an answer to prayer and a godsend because this is a very expensive, very breathtakingly beautiful catering hall, and for more details on that as well, email me at chrisarnson at comcast .net, com, that's chrisarnson at comcast .net, and the minister's luncheon or the pastor's luncheon, unlike the debate, is absolutely free of charge, and we can serve up to 100 men this gourmet lunch, and all of the men attending will also get hundreds of dollars worth of free Christian books, brand new books donated from publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom.
Nearly every single major publisher in the USA and the UK is donating books, as they have been for quite a number of years, for each and every man in attendance, so I hope that you can make it to that.
But without further ado, I want to introduce my good friend that I am so delighted that the Lord sovereignly has caused our paths to cross, and we have developed, by His grace, a friendship, and we have been involved in different activities for the Kingdom of God, and I'm so delighted that he is back on the program.
His name is Pastor Jason Wallace, and he's the pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, and that is a congregation within the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination, right in the heart of Mormon territory, and today we are discussing after Mormonism, atheism, and also an earnest plea to gay Christians, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron, Sharp, and Zion, Pastor Jason Wallace, and let me introduce a man who has returned as my co-host today, and you'll be hearing, God willing, him co-hosting with me from time to time as I interview various folks, and one of the reasons he's in studio with me today is he is, like Pastor Wallace, he is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination.
He is also founder of sixdaycreation .com, and he's an author of a couple of books, and it's great to have you back in the studio to co-host with me today, Charlie Liebert.
Hi Chris, thank you very much for having me.
And it's Liebert, right? It's not Liebert?
Yes, it's Liebert.
Okay, great. And if anybody is listening and they would like to join us on the air with a question, the email address is chrisarnson at comcast .net. That's chrisarnson at comcast .net, and I hope that we do have listeners who know how to, who are aware of the, who were aware of the new email address before the show started.
But at any rate, Pastor Wallace, before we even get into these very controversial topics that we have scheduled for today, I'd like to know something about your own personal background, the religion of your youth, of your upbringing, if any, how you came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, and how you came to become a pastor in the.
Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Yeah, I've seen a number of those. Oh, wow.
And we're going to start with the first hour. We're going to be discussing after Mormonism, atheism, with a question mark, and that is the topic of a documentary that is not yet released, the one that you're working on right now.
And before I even ask you more about that, Charlie Liebert, what Orthodox Presbyterian Church did you belong to before coming here to Carlisle?
I belonged to Providence in Greensboro, North Carolina, under Pastor Ari.
Okay, great. Just wanted to say that in case our guest is familiar with that congregation. And are you, Pastor Wallace, do you know that congregation?
I've heard of it.
Okay.
Ari Van Eck is a twin of another pastor. That's a pastor in Florida. They're both twin brothers.
Yeah, I think I met one of them. I can't remember which one.
You wouldn't know which one if you met them.
Well, how did you come up with this theme? I know that, as I said, and as it's plain to assume that you are in the heart of Mormon territory because of the location of your church, Magna, Utah, which is a suburb of Salt Lake City.
Why did you come up with this specific theme after Mormonism? Atheism? Question mark. That's a very obviously intriguing title. No, I would never have guessed that until I just heard some things recently.
Going on there in the political arena. That is really astonishing.
I'm sure most folks that are not from that area logically assume that the entire state of Utah having such deeply rooted Mormon history would be in some fashion either very religiously Mormon or nominally at least Mormon.
I think they call them Jack Mormons. And you would think that that culture at least would have some kind of dominance there, but I guess I'm wrong. One of the largest. What parades?
Gay pride parade.
Okay. I guess sometimes for some reason you're dropping out from time to time.
Yeah, the city hall was
Jason, are you on a cell phone just by any curiosity? You're on a landline? Yeah, because for some reason you're cutting out. I don't know why. But if you could just continue, I'm not sure. Maybe your battery is starting to die.
I don't know if it's a wireless handset that you have.
I don't know. It's got a full battery.
Okay. All right. Well, I'm sorry. Just continue. I guess we'll just have to have you clarify things when you cut out.
Yeah, my apologies.
Yeah. Just out of curiosity, could we go to a station break and could you use any other phone? Is there another phone?
Yeah. I'll switch to it.
Okay. We're going to go to a station break right now because obviously that would be far too frustrating to have Pastor Jason cutting out every other sentence or every other word. So we're going to be going to that station break now.
If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Jason Wallace, our email address is chrisarnson at comcast .net. That's chrisarnson at comcast .net. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Jason Wallace.
I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and here's one of my favorite guests, Todd Friel, to tell you about a conference he and I are going to.
Hello, this is Todd Friel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV and occasional guest on Chris's show. I think I think that's what it's called. Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 conference in Atlanta, my new hometown.
It is going to be a bang up conference called the G3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.
We hope to see you there. Learn more at g3conference .com, g3conference .com. Thanks, Todd. I think. See you at the Iron Sharpens Iron Exhibitors booth. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in-depth study.
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That really matter. I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets. Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.
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Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward slash Iron Sharpens today. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, a congregation within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.
And by the way, you just heard an ad for World Magazine. Any of you who already have that and the current issue on page 18, you will find the full page ad for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And by God's providence, this is bordering on the miraculous in my opinion, the subscription envelope for World Magazine that they threaded through the binding of the magazine is right exactly where the Iron Sharpens Iron full page ad is.
So that becomes a bookmark. So when you cradle the magazine in your hands, it automatically flips open to that page where my head is. So I just thank God for that. We are discussing for the first hour on this program, after Mormonism, atheism, question mark.
And then the second hour, we are going to be discussing the theme, an earnest plea to gay Christians. And we will explain that title as well later because obviously many Christians are scratching their heads thinking that that is an oxymoron.
And I agree with the fact that that is an oxymoron, but I'm sure that Pastor Wallace has some kind of an explanation for the use of that phrase. But anyway, our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air, is chrisarnson at comcast .net.
That's chrisarnson at comcast .net. C-O-M as in Michael, C-A-S-T dot net. And before the break, Pastor Wallace, you were talking about the astonishing liberalism in Salt Lake City, Utah, which was a very big surprise to me, not just today, but I mean, I heard about it quite a while ago, but it was a surprise to me because I just assumed that Mormon culture would be dominating there, conservative, moral, social behavior and so on.
But if you could continue from where you left off. Sure. Can you hear me better now? I can hear you fine right now.
Yeah. Salt Lake City, it is, even the members of the Mormon...
So basically, just like there was the burned over district in upstate New York, where it was very rare that fruits would be born from evangelistic efforts. It was like hard rocky soil there in regard to evangelizing.
You're saying that when it comes to Mormons, when they leave Mormonism, they typically are not becoming Christians or even members of other religions. They are becoming atheists. The vast majority.
Well, I know that Charlie. Liebert, my co-host has... Liebert, I'm sorry, has some questions.
He has for you. Yeah. I have a son that lives in Murray, Utah. And one of the things he talks about, he's not a believer, he's not a Christian, but he's not a Mormon either. And he is at the moment living with a person who was an ex-Mormon.
And one of the things he talks about is the fact that he sees two kinds of people in terms of Mormons. He sees real Mormons and he always laughs at it and says, wear the underwear. And then he sees people that are cultural Mormons.
Can you differentiate between that and kind of get, what do the cultural Mormons believe? Do they believe anything or are they part of that.
Atheist group? He's a former Mormon. He just wasn't practicing it.
Now, was he doing this as something that he... I'm trying to think of the word to describe this. Was he doing this secretively in a sense where he knew what he was doing was immoral and wrong, and even against Mormon principles?
Or was he doing this fully convinced this was compatible with his Mormonism? Like for instance, you have obviously, you know there are many people who profess to be Christian, who may be even active members of their churches, who are involved in all kinds of closeted behavior that they know is against the teachings of Christ, that they know is against the teachings of their own congregation.
But they continue to do so because of their own lust, greed, whatever the case may be. But was this person doing it because he was convinced.
It was compatible with his faith? No, no. Yet he still was...
Right. The reason why I ask that is that even fundamentalist Muslims, Muslim extremists, have been known to profit from the sale of drugs. You know, they raise the plants necessary to create the drugs, and you know, they harvest them and so on, and cultivate them to fund very often their terrorist activities, and they justify it because they believe that the ends justify the means.
That's why I was asking that question about the Mormon you know. We do have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, Harrison, who wants to know, how do you explain those that appear to be fully faithful and actively involved in the Mormon church, and yet have liberal beliefs and ideologies that are the antithesis of what we know about Mormon morals and social values?
And Harry Reid is one example.
That comes to mind. Mormonism is that we're not Christian. How can we redefine things? I mean,.
It was only 1978. Pastor Jason, we're going to pick up on the 1978, but the breaking up is continuing. I don't know if somebody's calling you on your line, but for some reason you cut out, like every three minutes or less, your voice disappears, and I'm not sure why.
Perhaps you could call us back on a cell phone. That might even be better. Usually a cell phone is not better,.
But it might be better in this case. Okay, all right, I'm going to hang up. We're going to.
Another station break, and we'll pick up on 1978 after these messages, so don't go away. God willing, we will be right back with Pastor Jason Wallace.
Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either. We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled, Resting in Grace.
You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org, that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Chris Arnson here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend,.
Dr. James White, to tell you why. Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the G3 Conference, hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Vody Balcom, Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.
For more details, go to g3conference .com, that's g3conference .com.
Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit booth while you're there.
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Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org. Hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689. 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsin. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.
We are discussing for the first hour, After Atheism, Mormonism, and then the second hour we are discussing an earnest plea to gay Christians, quote, quote. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnsin at gmail .com.
ChrisArnsin at gmail .com. And by the way, if you are listening, David in, I believe you're David in Ada, Ohio, your email with a question is completely blank, so you might want to resend your question.
But if you could pick up where you left off, Pastor Jason, regarding 1978 and the Mormon Church. Yeah, can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you.
Okay. Yeah, you were asking if the church's teachings haven't changed. In 1978, after years of insisting that they couldn't change it if they wanted to, based on the direct revelation, the Mormon Church started ordaining men of African descent in 1890.
You add that in trying to put forward, so you have a movement, you have a sort of universalism. The church is trying to get women to receive the priesthood within Mormonism due to pressure.
Now, obviously, I'm assuming you would want to make it clear that you were not in favor of any kind of discrimination against black individuals. You're just saying the inconsistency of saying that something is prophecy, unchangeable prophecy from God himself one year, and then the next year you're changing it without really a valid explanation.
That's really what you're talking.
About. Yeah, I mean, in their view, God can contradict them. And that's a fundamental... You mentioned, I know we're not to that point yet, but you mentioned about the term gay Christians. I'm only using the term they've used for themselves and showing them that you can't be gay and Christian.
You can be one or the other, but you can't...
There's an incompatibility. Right, and we'll get to that when we complete this hour. Yeah, so I remember when you had me do the voiceover, I believe it was for Bruce McConkie, was it not? When he was saying in a speech, basically, it doesn't matter what I said.
It doesn't matter what Brigham Young said. It doesn't matter what anybody else said. We are changing this rule. And of course, I'm paraphrasing. We're changing this rule, and you got to accept it and just stop asking questions.
It's basically a paraphrase of what he was saying. Am I right? We have David in Ada, Ohio, who says, Aren't all Mormons children of the devil as all others who are not born again? And if that is the case, why is anyone surprised by ungodly behavior by them?
The same would apply to conversion to true biblical Christianity. If God is sovereign in salvation and saves whom he chooses, then all who are destined for salvation are saved. We have to be faithful to evangelize all and spread the gospel worldwide to everyone everywhere, knowing it's God who gives the increase.
While I find Mormonism interesting, and I have befriended several missionaries, I always made sure they knew I disagreed with their teaching, and I did all I knew to witness the truth to them. So, I guess his basic question is, if Mormons are children of the devil and are not born again, why are we expecting them to behave in a godly fashion?
The Mormons, of course, they don't drink, they don't smoke. Utah is more than another part just out of appearance. Of course, the reality is they're a degenerate. I mean, by nature, we're all children apart from achieving a new heart underneath the mask.
Utah is a really dark place.
I'm sorry, Jason, you're going to have to repeat what you just said, your last few words there.
Yes.
And I'm assuming that you would agree that a part of an answer to David's question, David in Ada, Ohio, is that the elect and the unelect alike all come from the same lump of clay, and therefore, even though those who are not yet born again are children of the devil, we are to call upon them to repent.
And a part of that would be pointing out inconsistencies even that exist in their own belief system. Wouldn't that be a part of the way that you would, in an apologetic sense, get Mormons to realize that they are adhering to a religion that is illogical and inconsistent and actually historically dishonest?
I'm most keen to people who are in earnestly glad that they've sank, and what we do there is we've been what even faith when we do that, we try to do that having them listen to what the Bible says, 15 minutes.
Second one is the bottom sin that man might be, the real God, the real nature of sin, and the real nature of salvation. And I view my ministry as that God has me compared to anybody. Praise God. Charlie, you have a question I thought.
Yeah, I want to pursue something a little bit. In the video, you talked about Mormonism and then atheism. One of the things I've often encountered is atheists, atheists that come out of religious backgrounds, and Mormonism as being one of them, are usually the most vehement in terms of hating Christianity.
That's both good and bad, because the person on the opposite side, if you can point out the contradictions, they'll come to a personal crisis. Have you seen anything like.
That in terms of dealing with the atheists that have become atheists? Yes, I understand. In my.
Dealing with atheists, one of the things that I focus on is the contradiction in the basic belief system itself. You say there are no absolutes, and then you declare there is no God. That's inconsistent.
And I tell them directly that the best you could be is agnostic, because atheist is contradictory in itself. And that usually gets them very angry. But I've also found that anger sometimes is a tool of evangelism.
You can get someone angry, and then they begin to question. And if they begin to question, then maybe in fact that'll draw them to the point where God's given them ears to hear.
We don't try that. We try to live with atheism. The God of Mormonism is not—.
That's clear.
And so, if they're trying to a limited number of people, none of that's going to make sense.
To a certain extent, you can understand. Someone who's been brought up in a religious context all their life, and then suddenly they find out it's a lie, the obvious reaction is going to be to reject religion in general.
That's going to be a first step. See, I was a hardcore atheist until I was converted. And I understand that belief. But on the other hand, it is inconsistent,.
And it doesn't bring anything satisfactory. I had a conversation once with a Mormon elder.
On an airplane. And one of the things he kept pushing and pushing was the fact that we're really just a little different Christians. And I finally told him that if you believe what you believe—and he was kind of surprised that I knew this—if you believe that God was once a man, then you're inconsistent with anything Scripture teaches, inconsistent with anything I believe about it.
In Christianity, you can't even begin to call it Christian. And that offended him. He got rather angry about that.
By the way, before I forget, if anyone would like to see that episode,.
Www .LDS .video. That's L-D-S dot video. L-D-S for Latter-Day Saints dot video. And obviously, you have to differentiate when you talk about the false, even blasphemous understanding that God the Father was a man who basically earned his way to godhood you have to differentiate between that and Jesus Christ becoming man and being fully God and fully man.
People may, especially those who are not theologically educated, or they're not even Christian at all, they may not think that there's too big of a leap between those two things. But there's a chasm of difference that never meet at any point.
Am I right there, Pastor Jason?
Most definitely.
We're going to another break right now, and I hate to bug you again, Pastor Jason, but I don't know if anybody else in your household or office has a different cell phone or phone that you could use, because although this one's not breaking up, it's very muffled.
So I know that this is frustrating, and I apologize, but for some reason, even though you're not cutting out like you were before when your voice was clear, now your voice is very muffled even though you're not cutting out.
So I don't know if there's an alternative way you could call us. No, this is good. That's the only thing that you can use, okay. I have one cell phone. Okay. All right. Well, I guess we'll just have to deal with this line, and we're going to be going to a break right now.
If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at comcast .net. That's chrisarnson at comcast .net. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.
If you live outside the USA, don't go away. We'll be right back. Chris Arnn's in here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend Dr. James White to tell you why.
Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. I hope you join me at the G3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta, January 19th through the 21st, in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
I'll be joined by Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Vody Balcombe, Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson, Rosaria Butterfield, Todd Friel, and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what G3 stands for, gospel, grace, and glory.
For more details, go to g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go is Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, and we are now discussing an earnest plea to gay Christians, which is the subject of a new documentary that is actually now available from the Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question about that subject, our email address is chrisarnsen at comcast .net.
That's our new email address, so please make note of it. Chrisarnsen at comcast .net, and before I return to our guest, a mutual friend of his and mine, Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, where he did pastor for decades, now retiring from that post and entering into the field of being a home or domestic missionary, if you will.
Pastor Bill Shishko is the host of a new program called A Visit to the Pastor's Study. You can hear that show every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time, and it's a live call-in show, so you can call in with your questions for pastoral counsel and advice, theological questions, etc.
And the way you listen to that program is either on the internet at wlie540am .com, where you can hear it anywhere in the world, wlie540am .com, or you can hear it on the AM dial on your radio if you live in the New York Tri-State area on 540 AM on the dial.
That's W-L-I-E radio, named after the Long Island Expressway, not after deceit, not after lying, so quite unfortunate call letters for the program. But Pastor Bill Shishko is a dear friend, and he is a very gifted communicator and very biblically sound, and not to mention brilliant.
So I hope that you tune into that show regularly, and please mention to Pastor Shishko that you heard about A Visit to the Pastor's Study on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And Pastor Wallace, we are now discussing an earnest plea to gay Christians.
What was the catalyst that brought about the creation of this new.
Documentary that you have? People who generally leave it for atheism, and so we have a huge gay population, with the mayor of Salt Lake, a lesbian, and he put it in the United States Senate as a transvestite.
So do you, let's see, embrace a non-American congregation? This is not an elevationally prominent, supposedly conservative, well this is not.
Something they would recommend, this is not a question. Yes, and Matthew Vines is really paving the way to legitimize homosexuality in a way that is very much on its surface, giving the appearance of evangelical Christianity, the setting, the style of worship, the use of the scripture, referencing the scripture, believing that the scripture is the word of God, etc.
And it's interesting that he refuses to debate Dr. White, that is a shame. Dr. James R. White has challenged Matthew Vines to debate, and he refuses to do so because he thinks Dr. White is basically too mean-spirited and bigoted, but obviously that is ridiculous and false, and this is coming from the idea that unless you are willing to accept homosexuality as valid in some sense, that you are a bigot and a hateful.
What are your practical suggestions to Christians on overcoming that stereotype in the minds of those you are evangelizing?
I recently made the video, it's on YouTube, but the easiest way to access it is www .achristian .video. Video is a relatively new internet extension.
Yeah, you were really providential, it was really providential I should say, that you got those.
Website URLs. Yeah, it gives you an idea where we're going. It's easy to give someone a card to point them to this. It's a whole lot easier than giving them a phone.
Hello, Pastor Jason. I think Pastor Jason was disconnected. So we're going to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail.
I'm sorry, not at gmail. I keep repeating that stupid disabled email address, the email address that Google disabled, I should say. But we're going to be right back, God willing, after these messages, so please do not go away.
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Or visit solidrockremodeling .com. That's solidrockremodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home. Welcome back. This is Chris Sarnes, and if you just tuned us in, our guest is Pastor Jason Wallace of Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.
In studio with me co-hosting today's show is Charlie Liebert, also a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination, and he is founder of sixdaycreation .com. And I assume that we have you back on the line,.
Pastor Wallace. Yes, I was dead, and apparently it wasn't charging as fast as I was using it.
Well, right now you sound crystal clear, better than before, so hopefully you won't be cutting out anymore. I'm not sure what was going on before, but it almost sounded like somebody was calling you on your line or something.
But anyway, the whole matter of evangelizing homosexuality, or should I say evangelizing those who practice homosexuality, the difficulty is magnified in this day and age because, especially those who are in a younger age bracket than you and I, millennials especially, they have been raised from infancy.
Not that they have been raised if they were in Christian homes this way, but those that were not have been raised since infancy typically believing from what they see and hear and read in the media that this is a completely acceptable alternative lifestyle, and that to disagree with that notion equates you with Hitler and the Ku Klux Klan.
And there seems to be no middle ground between those two things. You either celebrate and rejoice that people are homosexuals and are enjoying that way of life, or you are a hate monger. And this is what makes this sin in some ways very unique because there is no other sin I can think of where those who practice it have achieved so much ground in the area of public acceptance and really have been able to elevate their status to that of heroes.
I mean, we have even Bruce Jenner winning the ESPN award for bravery because he is going through gender altering, but even he hasn't had the actual operation to my knowledge. He's just had hormones and is dressing in drag.
But this is really a hurdle that we all have to overcome is this mindset that this is completely acceptable. Is it not one of the difficulties of evangelizing then?
A generation and a half see the faith all given a new heart and find Christianity down, where to find down the church is any kind of discipline. This is the natural result.
Yes, it's like a byproduct of it. But in this case, what has become worse is that there is nothing that is viewed as requiring repentance. It's not necessarily easy believism we're talking about here, where a person is thinking that he can sin and have nothing to fear because he has a one-way ticket to heaven.
It's the idea that this isn't even sin at all. And it's a wonderful and beautiful and glorious thing and should be celebrated and should be viewed as heroic because of the fact that the church for two millennia has condemned it.
And these heroes of the 21st century have finally revealed in their minds that the church was wrong for 2 ,000 years and that we are in grave error and we have slandered and mistreated these folks. And we are the ones that need to repent, not them.
On the basis of that then, what the church is saying is that as long as you have faith, you don't have to walk with the Lord, you don't have to repent, you don't have to look at your sin, you can just kind of go on.
And that's heresy.
Yeah, I mean first John did his commandments. If we don't keep his commandments, we're liars.
Now I'm going to say something that may upset folks and I'm talking about Christians, evangelicals, and I would love to have these brothers on my show at some point to see what they have to say. But there is a well-known couple of brothers, two brothers, who were on a major cable network that has to do with home and garden and all that kind of stuff.
And I can't remember what field of employment they were in. I think it may have been real estate, but I'm not sure. But anyway, they were Christians, or they are Christians I should say, and they were taken off the air because they were evangelicals and their pastor was speaking out against homosexuality in a sermon.
Now the thing that I'm saying that's going to be controversial that may get that some of our evangelical listeners upset, and perhaps even these brothers, is that it was somewhat troublesome to me when they were defending themselves.
They were saying, we're not against anything or anybody. We're pro-Jesus. We are in love with Jesus and we are promoting Jesus. We're not opposing anything. Now I think that the world can see through that.
I mean these guys, I want to give them credit where credit is due. They lost their careers over having some kind of a stance that upsets those who are promoting homosexuality. But at the same time, when we are being obedient to Christ and his word, we are opposed to many.
Things, aren't we? Yes, I mean that's part of what God... Yes, and we should not and must not.
Cop out by saying we're only in favor of something and not opposing anything. Because if that were the case, the Christians in the first century, and even perhaps many throughout the world today in the Sudan and other places, there would be no executions.
There would be no martyrs if that was really the stance they were taking, am I right? If they were just saying, hey, we're not against anything around us in this world or in the religious systems of this world or in the ideologies of this world.
We are merely in love with Jesus and we are pro-Jesus and promoting that. Very few people would have lost their lives with that kind of a gospel, am I right?
Yeah, I'm ignorant of what Christianity has meant. Right, I read about that in the Beast of Revelation by Ken Gentry. And hurting people is a matter of...
The thing that I keep hearing in this is that the church has lost its sense of spiritual warfare. We want to be friends with the world rather than making war against the evil in the world. And that's a huge turn in terms of theology.
That's impossible. We are in a spiritual war,.
And that war goes on all around us. That's exactly right.
And to perhaps clarify myself a bit about something I was saying about those brothers who were fired from a major network, who were a part of some kind of a home and garden type of network because of their evangelical church, which had in some fashion opposed homosexuality.
I think that there is a difference between being anti individuals and anti-behavior, if you follow what I'm saying. One thing that really gets underneath my skin is when the Roman Catholic apologists, for instance, call folks like you and I and apologists like Dr. James White and Dr. Tony Costa and many others, they will call them anti-Catholic.
And in that pejorative term, you have conjured up images of the Klan, and you have people who were treating people with bigotry that had nothing to do with evangelism or theology or what have you. There is a difference between being against Catholicism and being anti-Catholic, isn't there?
Just in the same way, we don't have some deep-seated reason to have individuals who are involved in homosexual practice as our enemies, but we are very opposed to their behavior or the behavior that they are promoting.
Am I right in that analogy there? Maybe I shouldn't be laughing because it's so sad, but I couldn't help it.
An evangelical campus ministry that had been...
Yeah. And one of the things that I have brought up on the program before is that it seems that many of our brethren in Christ, even many within our conservative and theologically Calvinistic circles, are adopting the phraseology and terminology of the world in regard to this issue.
Now, you used the phrase gay Christians for a purpose to disprove that there is such a thing, but there are many among us that will use phrases like the gay community, and they're giving in to the world's perception that this is just a different group of humanity, just as there are men and women, there are white and black, there are Hispanic and Asian and Native American, and on and on and on.
And there's also homosexuals, there is lesbians, there is transgendered, there is transvestite, and the whole acronym of LBGQ... I can't even remember how many letters are in there. But the acquiescing to the wicked culture around us by.
Borrowing their terminology, isn't that a dangerous thing? Yeah, most definitely. I think that, let me give you a sense, we bring in 1 Corinthians 5... The old West Wing argument of Martin Sheen. Oh, most definitely.
And the reality is, you might as well say, well, that's in the Bible, so how can anything in the Bible still be binding? Right. 1 Corinthians 5, where same chapter of the wrong and celebrate, taking comfort that you are not like many other homosexuals.
Very good,.
That sounds exciting. If you stop and think about this, the word gay is a euphemism now for homosexual behavior. Would we say that someone is an incestuous Christian, or an adulterous Christian? I mean, it's naming a sin.
I have a real problem with the concept of gay Christians. Now, I know a gay that has repented and is in the church, but he's given up that behavior and lifestyle, but he still has that temptation. Wouldn't you call him a former...
A former gay,.
Yes. Or a former practicer of homosexuality. I don't even think we should use the word gay,.
To tell you the truth. Well, when I was young, gay meant happy, it didn't mean... Yeah, that's my.
Point. When Fred and Barney were having a gay old time, that didn't mean...
And in the film, Singing in the Rain, Fred Astaire says, when he's out there dancing with that umbrella, I'm feeling gay tonight. And, you know, my grandchildren saw that and thought that.
Was a terrible thing for him to say. And Dean Martin, in When the Moon Hits Your Eye Like a Big Pizza Pie, uses the phrase like a gay tarantella. But anyway, this is just an overreaction, I'm assuming, to folks that do have hatred toward those who are lost, especially if they are involved in a particular sin that they find offensive.
Like the God Hates Fags group, people are trying to distance themselves so far away from them that they wind up just becoming Mr. Rogers when they evangelize. And they, at all costs, want to avoid any kind of language that is offensive in any way, shape, or form.
And that's not what Jesus did,.
And it's certainly not what the Apostle Paul did either. Yeah, the Jesus of the Bible made a whip.
Yes. And I can remember when I arranged the debate in the early 2000s between Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Barry Lynn, who is the president, at least he was at the time, of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
They debated on the theme, Is Homosexuality Compatible with Biblical Christianity? And Barry Lynn is not only an attorney, a former ACLU attorney, he's also an ordained United Church of Christ minister.
And United Church of Christ, for those of you unaware of that denomination, they are the most liberal denomination within mainline Protestantism. Unitarian Universalists may be neck and neck with them or even more liberal, but they're not really...
Well, I guess some of them identify themselves as Christian, but they are really outside the loop entirely of even really mainline Protestantism. But he was so angry at the end of this debate that he forgo...
He refused to even give a summation of his argument when he was supposed to have 10 minutes of summary at the end, closing statements, and he used that time just to scold the audience. And he said, How dare you call into question anyone's Christianity?
And what I say to people who use that same rhetoric with me, when the issue of homosexual Christians, quote, quote, comes up, I say, Oh, really? Are we to question the Christianity of the Christian identity movement, which is a racist movement where the Aryan Nations a cult came out of the white racist folks who are American Nazis and skinheads and so on.
And also, there is a movement, I can't remember the exact phraseology, but you know what I'm talking about in reference to the kinners or the kin theology? Do you know what I'm referring to?
The kinness?
Yes. Yeah, they are racist and don't even believe that blacks can be saved. So are we supposed to say, Well, who are you to question their Christianity? I mean, is there an inconsistency there?
Oh, yeah. I mean, we see it here in space.
Now, you would say that he is attacking the teaching of the Bible, but does he actually say that he's attacking the Bible?
Oh, yeah, he mucks and Judaizers, and he just danced.
Yeah. And when when you are being attacked, or accused of being hateful, and you are, you are saying you're being told that you are twisting the true loving and compassionate intent of Christianity. These people who are accusing us of this fail to recognize that they are doing the same thing toward us just for a different reason.
So ultimately, the question is, who's right? Because obviously, Matthew Vines, when it comes to the homosexual movement, he thinks that we are distorting the true intention of Christ and his message and of the Christian faith itself and the Bible.
And yet we are the ones who are bigoted because we say the same thing about him. You know, it goes back to the thing I mentioned earlier, the Catholic apologists will call us anti-Catholic. And yet, for some reason, they don't call themselves anti-Protestant, if you follow what I'm saying.
Oh, yeah, they're defining...
Right, and using explosive language like that, so you are immediately dismissed by others before they even give you a fair hearing. If you hear the words racist and bigot and hate monger and all that kind of thing brought against you, people may be immediately, without investigating the claim, say, wait a minute, I got to stay away from this person.
But it is alarming. I mentioned this earlier to you in the program, how today, when I speak to people in their 20s, they think, even if they are not homosexual or involved in homosexuality, I should say, and they're not, you know, marching in gay pride parades, they're not like overtly, actively involved in any kind of promotion of homosexuality.
They still think that we who are conservative Bible-believing Christians, they think that we're odd in our refutation and our condemnation of the activity of homosexuality. They think, why are you so upset about this?
This is just another way of expressing love that these people have adopted for their lives, and perhaps they were born this way, this is what makes them happy. And this is not what you and I, in our age bracket, were raised with at all.
And I'm not saying that everything that we did before Christ was correct, but, you know, the typical thing that a young man raised in the 60s and 70s would think about homosexuality, even if you're not a Christian, even if you have no regard for the Bible, is that that is abnormal.
And, you know, sometimes people did harsh and horrible things to those involved in that activity, you know, physical violence and things like that. But, I mean, that is an abomination, that's atrocious.
But at the same time, there seemed to be more of a universal understanding that this was completely out of the realm of normality. And now, that movement has very quickly and successfully brainwashed a whole generation.
Well, I want you to basically have the next five minutes to really summarize.
What you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we leave this program today.
He was sustained his church, didn't see that I see him in the church.
Yeah, when I was raised Roman Catholic, and in my neighborhood, the difference between a Catholic and a Protestant kid is that a Catholic kid went to church. And very often, the Protestant kids would go to church Easter and Sunday at the Catholic church.
Yeah, I mean, we've got to go back responding to articulations of old lies. But he convinced...
Well, Pastor Jason Wallace, it's been a pleasure having you on the program. And whatever you did the last time you called back into the studio, keep doing that the next time you're on, because for some reason, the phone line has been completely crystal clear since you last called.
So I'm not sure what the difference was.
Same phone.
Yeah, I don't know if it just got charged up more or what the case is, but really clear connection. But anyway, please give our listeners all of the email address, or the websites, I should say, that you would like to provide so that they can get in contact with you and so that they can watch these videos.
Sure. The church website is simple gospel...
Amen. And Charlie Lybert, if you could let our listeners know your websites.
Yes, my website. Two of them. First day, sixdaycreation .com. And the other, which is where my two books are available, is called yourchristiananswers .com.
Sixdaycreation .com and yourchristian...
Yourchristiananswers, all one word .com.
Yourchristiananswers .com.
Answers with an S at the end.
And the third book, which is going to publication the next couple of weeks, will be on there in about another... probably another month.
And that is... It has a very colorful title.
What is that? Yes, it does. Without Three Miracles, Darwin's Dead.
Well, and you are going to be on tomorrow, I believe, as a co-host again.
No, Thursday.
Thursday, I'm sorry. And then you're also going to be my guest coming up soon.
January 23rd, yeah.
Well, I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.