Dr. James White & Jeff Durbin Respond

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Stupid sin and everything else. That's right somehow Jesus claims in John 6 that Up to me,

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I'm done talk about that like the whole Because this is something that's a primary form of attack for them.

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They this idea of repentance and submission to Christ Well, I'll see what they see that it's not so much you see they don't understand

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I see no evidence. They understand that the reason we talk about the gifts of faith and this into love

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As Get not be demanded They don't have a

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Paul. Anyway, many many years ago. That was that was fascinating Boy was he interesting

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You to someplace Hearing us is an added Long, there's there's only two only those two ways that you can do it.

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And so For them every time they say you

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I'm going to hell because I'm teaching work salvation what their purpose beyond are

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Intimately related not only because they're the work of the same spirit. Yep, but from that kind of complete misunderstanding and again, it's it's

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Refusal to engage in proper categories to allow scripture to define its own terminology

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You know, I remember years ago Someone had said within the fundamentalist movement

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I remember someone saying you define a word by the first time it appears in Scripture and then you use that definitions about the rest of Scripture This results in in in a train wreck.

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You cannot do that, right? But when you do do that you end up having to compress all these anything

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It doesn't fit into your very very narrow paradigm sentence is they don't understand that it is a it is an attitude

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That flows from submission to God He's my creator. He gets defined for me

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What is right and wrong for me and I submit to that and therefore I turn away from What pleases my flesh?

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That's why It's not in here, but I shouldn't say it's without playing it.

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I'm gonna do a whole radio free Geneva on it In the flowers Stanley. Yeah dialogue at one point.

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I could not believe it Stanley's literally sitting there. We need to make it as easy as possible for people to accept

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Jesus We just need to try Jesus if you if you'll if you'll try Jesus your life will be better and we hope that along the way

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You'll find him to be a savior And I'm sitting here going Try Jesus What happened to mark

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Recording of Jesus in mark 8. Is that where you look? I'm in Luke 14.

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Okay, it's probably probably parallel passage Yeah, where Jesus calls the crowds to himself and says if anyone would be my disciple

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What does he have to do? Jesus didn't make it easy right because when he said deny yourself

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Take up your cross and follow me Everybody in that day knew exactly what he meant.

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Mm -hmm, and it wasn't, you know, I've got a nice little nice little yes cross on So that's not that's not what taking up the cross meant

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Everybody in that day had seen what the Romans had done Walking the road and every 30 yards is another either moaning dying

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Person being eaten by birds or a stinking corpse. It's already died one of the two

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They know what it means to take up the cross. Yeah. In other words Jesus is saying you want me by disciple?

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Join the death march. Yep. Get in the death march. Get in the death march. Come die. That is Not what

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Andy Stanley was saying. That's right any Stretch of the imagination and that's not what these guys are saying.

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They find that to be works But again, the Reformed person says that's not works because I'm not adding anything to what

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Christ did I'm simply recognizing that when he sends his spirit into my life raises me to spiritual life

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I am made a new creature in Christ and therefore as a new creature in Christ. I am going to believe in him have faith not just Ascend ascent to certain things, but there is fiducia.

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There is trust that he is able to save me There is a commitment there and that's what is related to then repentance.

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I cannot any longer live in my rebellion I want to be in submission to him

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That's where faith and repentance meet and since they are the work of the Spirit of God within me We're not saying this is something we do to make ourselves clean enough to be saved by God No, that's why this is not a violation and the

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Reformers never meant sola fide was solo fide Right faith without any of the work of the

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Spirit of God, right solo gratia or anything else? They recognized this was all the work of God only we can maintain the balance.

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That's why I Believe why people need to hear this as well for those who are trying to examine Critically what's this in him?

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I want what we're saying is what Paul said in Philippians Where Paul says with his resume you want to know how well

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I'm doing guys It will try this, you know circumcised a day of the tribe of Benjamin as to the law a

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Pharisee now You want to know how well I'm doing? Blameless. All right before they are blameless. I got you got nothing on me and then he says but I count all this

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It's done it's it I want none of it He says I want to be found in him not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law

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But one that is in Christ So the point is is that what we're saying is is these categories that we're talking about in Scripture of God?

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Declaring us righteous not on the basis of our works, but on the basis of what Christ has done our instrument of faith

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He's granted to us brings us to Jesus. We're in Christ hiding in Christ with his righteousness Paul's whole description of this in Romans chapter 4 when he says

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God, you know justifies the ungodly. How can you do that? How does God justify the ungodly? Well, because the whole discussion explains it such a such a startling statement.

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Remember what Joseph Smith did? Yeah, he had to change it He said God does not justify. Yeah, there's no way gated the entire gospel because he never ever understood grace

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Yeah, how could God justify the wicked? How's it possible? Well, there's only well through substitution substitution.

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That's right And so what what Paul says there is that he counts us righteous Apart from works and he does this and forgives us our sins never remembers them and brings them up against us again

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But he he does all of this and there's all these different facets to us Counting us righteous in Jesus apart from works of law not counting our sins against us

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There you have to be able to think about all that because that's what God gives to us. He tells us This is how he does this.

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This is the glory of the gospel But if these guys would be challenged to actually preach verse by verse and not just skip over Phrases because I I listened to the fellow

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I'm gonna be dialoguing with in half an hour I listened to what he preached on Romans chapter 8 and he just skipped over entire

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Phrases and important elements of the argument because it just didn't fit into the framework, but if you look at Romans 4 4 through 8 and Follow the argument you hear

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Paul quote from psalm 32 And yet he says this is the blessedness of the man to whom

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God imputes Righteousness apart from works and yet when you quote psalm 32, it's all about non imputation of sin

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Yeah, you have to think categorically here. You have to be able to go Oh the if this is what the

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Apostles saying that means then I need to make these category distinction Under Themselves of the

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Consistent. I don't know about you but you get up in front of the people of God and if there is not some sense of The sacredness of that duty and the weight of it.

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Yes, and And if you don't get finished and go, you know, Lord bless your people despite all of my feelings

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Failings and everything else. Yeah, you know, I mean we had apologia.

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Yeah, that's right We had apologia We don't

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Have a lot of extra trappings That are not necessarily wrong You know,

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I travel so much you're gonna you're gonna eventually discipline me for never showing up. Um, I travel so much

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That I've been in a lot of different types of churches and I'm glad I have I see the expression of the body of Christ and it's beautiful Yeah and I'm not one of those people that thinks that Everybody has to look like these guys think everybody needs to look like everybody else.

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That's one of the problems Yes, and we get a lot of criticism because of how we look

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Yeah, but I've never gotten the feeling at apologia that there's the idea that this is the only way it can be done

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Because I have a another dear dear friend I Spoke at his church in Texas sometime last year and it was

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He's associated with Doug Wilson. It was Very formal he wears a robe

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There was a tremendous amount of congregational interaction standing sitting

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Creed's so on and so forth. Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah it because it wasn't just for the sake of Form.

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Yeah, it all had a meaning it was all tied together and it was plain what the tie together was and it was beautiful right and I can appreciate that and To see

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I'm sorry. I started preaching and I shouldn't do On just a quickly to end of that That has been one of the most awesome experiences over the last

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Years of ministry is traveling around the world to northern and southern Australia New Zealand southern and northern

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Ireland Canada all over the United States. I have been asked to preach and it's been a privilege and very very strong hardcore

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Presbyterian churches and they're letting this reform Baptist come up reach their congregation Welcoming me welcoming me and loving me and I you know

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I dug Doug Wilson I and her friends and and I one of my favorite things to do is to go and spend time with Doug and be with his family and his church and and and to and to be in his church service

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It's a it's a blessing to see this expression and to be in Ireland and very strong strict

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Presbyterian churches and and and to get to see how they worship the Lord and know the Lord and I'm a

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Baptist their Presbyterian we were in in Australia recently preaching to bring the churches together to fight against abortion and there were

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Anglicans Anglicans and Presbyterians and Baptists and the non -denominational denomination was there as well

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It was so awesome It's just glorious and all of us are unified and tied together with the same message of the

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God of the Savior in the gospel It's a powerful thing. You know, I'm just saying guys you are missing out.

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Oh Yeah, when you when you anathematize everybody else kick everybody else out But at the same time

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I have to if if you don't rejoice in This message if you don't rejoice in the

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Lordship of Christ, you don't rejoice in the reality of repentance They wouldn't want to be a part of those churches because that's what binds us all together.

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That's right This that's what I I would like to believe I try to believe the best of people

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My hope and prayer is that they would hear these things and that over time Seeing that this kind of narrowness only builds a tremendous amount of walls

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But it never accomplishes anything and when we're saying narrowness just to make sure that this is on record We're not saying open yourself up to anything.

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We're saying that onus of your own tradition. Exactly. That's that's the problem Let me just do

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One other thing real quick here because you'll find this interesting because I I preached on this at Apologia a few months ago

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This fellow obviously heard something about this and Brought it up.

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Oh, so let's try to sneak this in in the last 10 minutes before we take a break before our

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Debate have the one where it says Jesus here or Lord there It just shows you how foolish how and you know, they want to well

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Maybe technology can help give us a better Bible Maybe we can dig up something in a cave if your trust if your confidence in God is something yet to be discovered or maybe the

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Computer can connect some numbers and teach us what it really means. You're a fool You don't believe in God you trust in a computer you trust in a scientist you trust in an archaeologist

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You're not trusting in the one true living God so This was he was saying that that I hate

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King James only as I'm because I wrote a book against it, obviously and then he threw you in there, too and Then he made reference.

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He didn't mention Jude 5, but you heard Lord and Jesus there and the only thing that I've that I you know

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I have spoken about that at g3, but I preached on it just a few weeks ago, right?

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at apologia, so It's it's just fascinating to me That their commitment to King James only is in this other guy.

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I was gonna play this don't have time for it Now this other guy Right after this says, you know They all they want to do is debate because they quoted you or whoever did this for apology on the channel on the channel

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Saying we'll do we'll debate this thing That's all that's all they want to do is it want to debate and Romans 129 uses the term debate and it's always bad and I just I sat back and First of all,

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I wondered what the King James translators Would think watching something like this.

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Oh, yeah, every King James translator would have looked at that and gone Except they would have said oh goodness grief

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Something Exactly what they would have done but but they there is no way any one of them would have given the slightest moments notice to someone who would think like this

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Because what you what you do is I I popped up. I looked at accordance real quick and I looked at the

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Greek term that is underlying debate in Romans because debate is an odd word to use Most other translations will say something like contentions divisions issues like that not debate in the sense of You take position a

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I'll take position B. We'll have a formal debate, which is what we're talking about doing. Right, right, so Without being able to go back to the original materials

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They're stuck with whatever the King James did and yet the King James in most in all but one other places where this term

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Eratos is used use a different word other than debate contentions strife's divisions what they don't realize is that different committees translated different portions of the

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New Testament and so that's why you have the contradiction between Matthew and Romans in quoting the commandment you shall not

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Murder or you shall not kill one says kill one says murder kill and murder are not the same thing

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That's right. And yet the King James has both the same commandment in two different forms

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But the underlying Greek text, there's no variant. It's oof on you size in both.

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The problem was ones in the Gospels That's one committee. Mm -hmm. There's in Paul That's another committee and they weren't working together and there wasn't an overarching committee that then brought him to get us at guys

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We need to need to do this the same way Because they didn't have fax machines and stuff like that to be able to do that back then and so without the ability

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To go back to those original languages. They're stuck with contradiction they're stuck with the same

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Greek term being translated multitudes of different ways in the New Testament leading to these weird conclusions like How dare you challenge us to debate because that's sinful because it says in Romans 129 and it's actually talking about creating divisions

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Which I think they're doing right, right Contentions and divisions. It sounds like what they're doing.

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Not not what we're doing. It just gives you an illustration of The problem here and then the other the thing in Jude 5

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Why wouldn't you want to have greater confidence at all times as to what Jude actually wrote?

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That's right And that's what I was talking about Your your text that that that you know, okay, let's say

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Stephanus here Stephanus did a little more work past Erasmus, but you're still only talking about maybe at the max 18 manuscripts

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At the most being drawn from by only two scholars Isn't it better to have?

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Thousands of scholars reviewing mutton one of those works over decades Drawing from nearly 6 ,000 manuscripts.

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Wouldn't that be a little bit better? And don't you believe God's preserved his word? So it's okay to do that. Exactly, right?

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Exactly. It seems to me that the fear is really on the other end Are you fearful that you're gonna that God didn't preserve his word that somehow you're gonna discover that God somehow

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It was a big mess of history. Like no, I have full confidence that he preserved his word That's why we can go to see let's get the sharpest clearest understanding of what did

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Paul say? What did Jesus say and I don't have to be fearful about the next manuscript discovery or anything along those lines at all

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But when you're stuck where they are Then all the all the notes at the bottom of the page in that one

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And there are a lot Seem like a fundamental denial of any type of meaningful concept of preservation, right when in Reality what those demonstrate is the depth and the wealth of the manuscript tradition that God did preserve over Two centuries nearly.

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Well, yeah over over two centuries of Roman persecution yeah, and then over the centuries since then of Islamic expansion and all sorts of other things in the process

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What God has preserved for us, that's what it represents so that we know that the original readings are there in the manuscript tradition

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Unlike the Muslim who has an edited text a revised text under Uthman And hence can only take it back to that particular point in time

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These guys never have to take even their gospel into the world in any meaningful fashion

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Oh, they may go out and do street witnessing, but what they consider street witnessing is, you know, yeah

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You know, we've seen the streets preachers out in Mesa You know yelling and screaming at people but the idea of actually engaging them in a meaningful fashion that demonstrates a respect understanding

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You know, it's just quoting Bible verses. So they never actually have to engage them in in the kind of meaningful

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Study that would expose them To their own inconsistencies. They're not gonna do it by this kind of conversation

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Yeah, when they get together, they're just reinforcing each other and and keeping the walls as strong as as possible

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Let one of these guys Start reading some books out off the off the index

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You know what? I mean? They they have their own index prohibitorium that Rome used to have we don't read these books

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Well almost anything by Spurgeon evidence evidently needs to be in the index prohibitorium

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And so let any one of these guys maybe because they end up encountering a real tough situation in their church and they they can't find the resources within their own narrow click and They start looking around and they start reading more and more and their eyes start opening to what's there

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They will be turned upon so fast It'll make their head spin and I can't tell you how many people especially since I wrote

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King James only controversy 24 years ago almost 25 years ago

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Have contacted me and said Man, if I had had your book, you know three or four years before I found it what it could have saved me from going through or the church splits or You know,

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I'm no longer in ministry because of what happened in this situation that situation I just can't tell you how many people have contacted me and talked about that kind of thing and it's

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We want to help people to avoid all of that absolutely and so in in barely two minutes, we're gonna take a break and Then at the top of the hour

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We're gonna have Lord willing. Please pray for the technique. We've not done this technically before so There's a lot of pressure on the plaid -shirted guy.

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Okay, a lot of pressure on the plaid -shirted guy and So Why are we doing this?

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I hopefully we've explained that with enough clarity over the past hour and 50 minutes

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It's not to defend ourselves or to promote ourselves. What we really want is people that are

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Involved in these groups To recognize that there needs to be a way for you to examine your traditions and Just because someone yells it louder from the pulpit

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Doesn't mean it's actually a part of the Word of God. And so hopefully even by opening the word and Showing you these things

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Look for yourself listen carefully pray for guidance to Read the entire text of the scripture and to understand what is what is there don't be afraid to go outside the

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Confines of your little group because if what you have is truth, you shouldn't be afraid to look at those things

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I'm not saying just open yourself up to anything. We are Trinitarians. We believe in the lordship of Jesus Christ We believe he's a he's the king of kings and Lord of Lords Um Listen to what is being said look to what the

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Word of God has to say and then listen over the next 70 minutes Uh when we we do

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The conversation see who handles the Word of God in a fair and honest way That's what i'm going to try to do and I think the uh, the contrast will be very very interesting

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So, uh with that we're going to wrap up this. Thank you. Jeff. Very very much. Thanks for having for for being here uh, there's so much more we could have looked at I had

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I had As you can see I didn't even start touching on most of the stuff we could have played And something tells me over the next two weeks

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We'll probably get on it some more. No over the next two weeks. There will be 47 more more videos Without any question at all.

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Um, but thank you very much and my pleasure folks. We'll see you in about 10 minutes

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Not hearing that Can you hear me?

25:42

I can't hear you So are you able to hear me, uh through the microphone here, okay

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Now I can hear you So youtube is uh able to hear us right now and so i'm just gonna have to end my other

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Session here I couldn't hear you there for the longest time. I didn't know if you could hear me.

26:33

Yeah. No, we've got you on here I'm gonna have to turn the uh bumper music down here. You probably aren't hearing that um, but uh our audience is

26:43

Is That's fine we need to get this set up and uh and working, right

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Yeah, I never used this before so yeah, well i'm i'm rather new to it too. So, um, uh one thing that uh

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We're going to be able to do here. I'm going to do this pop out the chat So i'm going to have the chat over off to the side

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So we can type back and forth now in this setup Uh, we are by the way again. I want to remind you we are live streaming right now so Uh, we're not actually recording this portion of the uh session

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Um, but we can see you and uh, we can hear you. Well, so that's going to work out

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Well, uh, you do have if you want to the uh ability to do um share screen shares

27:32

So if you want to put the text up on the screen while you're doing your presentation You can do that And um, you will not be able to see dr.

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White But you will be able to hear dr. White So that's just one of those things to where we're limited as we're shooting video out to youtube the whole nine yards

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But we're going to be putting you up and then him up and going back and forth Okay, so I can

27:57

How do you how do you share? There should be an option there in your client

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That allows you it's called screen share. Uh, at least it is on mine. It's down at the bottom. It says share

28:11

Okay, and you should be able to select things that you want to share So we're going to go to radio silence here.

28:18

We know that we've got um We've got a good screen on you and um

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Wait a minute james james wants to jump in here Ask him whether he wants to go first or second.

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I will leave that. Oh, he is asking if you want to go first or second That is up to you It's uh, it's up to him.

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Um All right, you guys I can't referee this one He says it's up to you james

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As the guest I would um, he says the guest goes first Okay, so we're gonna go from there so anyway,

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I did want to let you know that if I need to Tell you anything i'm gonna do it in chat.

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So i'm gonna text You this way? from that spot

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And so you want to keep that in a prominent place in your screen? So if for whatever reason we have any technical difficulties whatsoever,

29:16

I can let you know. Hey, look at that Got you. Nice, uh loud and clear. Look at that.

29:21

That's a great screen. There we go. So we can see you real well there Okay, okay. I'll just put you sorted up here.

29:27

I don't but if I go to the chat Well, I wonder if I can get to my chat without um

29:35

Yeah, be careful what you're putting up next thing, you know, you'll be putting up youtube or twitter Yeah, no,

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I don't really have anything that much open but I just want to make sure I can get back to the okay Well, i'm gonna let you do your thing there

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And if you need to let me know anything as well Just use the zoom chat there and i'll i'll see and and try to pop in but in the meantime

29:55

I I need to get things set up on this end. You will not hear our intro music But you will hear dr. White as he comes in and begins to introduce the show.

30:03

Okay? Okay. All right. Very good, sir Greetings and welcome back to the dividing line.

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We have a dialogue today on the program So I will introduce how we're going to do this and we'll get right to it

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We want to make sure to do this in an appropriate fashion. This will be a timed Dialogue there will be equal time for both sides

35:09

We are joined by pastor. Jason robinson Uh who is going to be discussing with me the subject of romans chapter 8 verses 28 through 34,

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I Wrote to pastor robinson after seeing a video that he had posted

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In regards to myself and pastor jeff durbin And I invited him to come on the program and not have a debate about every topic under the sun uh, but instead to engage in a

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An example of how each one of us handles the scriptures And so I suggested a key theological text romans chapter 8

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Verses 28 through 34. It is a deep text It's not super long.

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We only have 15 minutes for each one of us to cover this text That's not long enough to filibuster and to wander about too much

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But should be long enough to at least cover the major elements of the text and to demonstrate a consistent interpretation then each of us will have 15 minutes to ask the other questions not to filibuster and to Drag the topics off into other areas, but specifically

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Uh to ask questions concerning the other person's understanding of the same text we need to stay

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In romans 8 i'm not saying that cross references can't be given or things like that, but we need to stay focused upon Romans 8 so there will be 15 minutes, uh for each of us to give our presentations

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Then 15 minutes that's each so that's one half hour Then 15 minutes each uh cross examination of the other on the person's uh exegesis

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So that takes us to one hour and then each of us will have Five minutes to summarize our thoughts on the discussion at that point.

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Obviously if you want to Pastor robinson expand uh out beyond The topic make application something like that in that last five minutes

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Closing statement type thing that would certainly be understandable and uh and acceptable And so the total of the of the discussion is 70 minutes um 70 minutes on on that today, so Uh with that as our guest

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I have invited uh, pastor robinson to have first shot, uh at Examining the text and giving us his understanding of romans chapter 8 verses 28 through 34

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So pastor robinson, thank you very much for joining us. And uh, if you'd like to to begin, um, please, uh, please do so All right, thanks for having me so starting there in verse 28

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Uh, we'll just read it and it says and we know that all things work together for good to them that love god

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To them who are the called according to his purpose So this first verse here

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Is saying that all things work together for good, but there's a couple caveats Uh to to who that applies to so first it says to them that love god

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And to them that who are the called according to his purpose And so the first thing we see is to them that love god now loving god is not being saved

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I do believe the The to them who are the called according to his purpose is talking about salvation um

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But to them that love god is something that's on top of that Meaning not everybody that's saved loves god because not everybody that's saved keeps all the commandments

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And so in john, uh 14 15 it says if you love me keep my commandments

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And uh first john 5 3 it says for this is the love of god That we keep his commandments and his commandments are not grievous and so Uh, this promise is a great promise that uh that all of us that that are saved

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But also that love god that meaning that we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight

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That this promise Of all things working together for good Now obviously

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I don't believe this means that that god decrees evil And that all this evil is working the good and that's what god decreed

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But I do believe this is talking about tribulation trials and all that which is actually what is talked about Right after this this portion of scripture

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And the fact that you know, we're going to suffer with him. We're going to enter tribulations and all this and so This is a great promise to know that hey through all that in the end if you love god

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As a christian and you're keeping his commandments all things will work together for good in verse 29

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It says for whom he did for know He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son

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That he might be the firstborn among many brethren And then he goes on and says moreover whom he did predestinate

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Then he also called and whom he called then he also justified and whom he justified then he also glorified

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So I want to talk about this passage as far as predestination So, uh, this is probably one of the big topics to discuss as far as what is this talking about?

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Dealing with predestination And and the number one thing to see here is is what it starts off with in verse 29 where it says for whom he did for know

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So that's the key To understanding this passage, but also what are we being predestinated to?

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It says in this passage. He also did predestinate us to be conformed to the image of his son

40:50

That he might be the firstborn among many brethren now that term firstborn is is very uh unique in the bible

40:57

Uh talking about jesus because it talks about how he's the first fruits of the resurrection Our first fruits of them that slept.

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He's the first begotten of the dead So we're talking about the resurrection which no marvel was just talked about in romans chapter 8

41:12

And so we're being predestined to be conformed to his image and uh,

41:17

I want to parallel this with ephesians chapter 1 so ephesians chapter 1 uh

41:25

And actually I want you know in first peter as well It says because that foreknowledge is brought up again

41:31

It says in first peter chapter 1 elect according to the foreknowledge of god the father And so being elect being predestinated

41:38

Is is based off of god's foreknowledge so we can't blame god for knowing uh the end from the beginning

41:46

But I do want to talk about this because actually ephesians 1 is the only other place that the word Predestination is used in the bible

41:52

And so I want to just go to that passage in ephesians chapter 1 And actually it reiterates itself in this so it uses the word predestinate uh two times in this passage but in uh in verse uh five

42:09

And we can obviously go back to this and look at it, but it says having predestinated us unto the adoption of children

42:16

By jesus christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will To the praise of the glory of his grace wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved

42:25

So notice that what are we being predestinated for the adoption of children? And to the praise of the glory of his grace

42:34

But down further it reiterates this whole point and when you go down to in verse 11 and again, i'm trying to do this in 15 minutes, so We can always go back to this but it says in whom also

42:48

We have obtained an inheritance Being predestinated according to the purpose of him who work with all things after the counsel of his own will

42:58

That we should be to the praise of his glory Who first trusted in christ and this is where the foreknowledge comes in Meaning that god foreknew who would believe or who would trust in christ

43:10

But they first trusted in christ before they were predestined And we we can't blame god for knowing who's going to believe in the future

43:18

But what are we being predestinated for not to believe it doesn't say that we are predestined to trust in christ

43:24

It says we are predestinated Who first trusted in christ and then it goes on to explain that even further it says in verse 13

43:32

It says in whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation

43:38

In whom also after that you believed you were sealed with the holy spirit of promise Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of his glory

43:50

Now this parallels perfectly with romans chapter 8 Because in romans chapter 8 before we get to whom he did foreknow.

43:57

He also did predestinate To be conformed to the image of his son. It says in romans chapter 8 23.

44:03

It says and not only they But ourselves also which have the first fruits of the spirit

44:09

Even we ourselves grown within ourselves waiting for the adoption to wit the redemption of our body

44:16

And so we see that adoption the predestination of adoption of children We see the the fact of the the redemption of the purchased possession

44:25

And and unto the praise of his glory and and the earnest of the spirit dealing with the first fruits of the spirit

44:31

Where he sent the spirit of his son crying abba father Talks about that in galatians chapter 4 as well

44:38

And so this is very clearly just showing us it is a chain of events meaning that He's stating that he predestinated those who would believe because he foreknow who would believe

44:51

To be conformed to his image to the image of his son and it's specifically talking about the resurrection now, uh with this you have to understand too is that there's a difference between the old man and the new man meaning that when

45:04

We get saved We have the adoption of children spiritually and this is where first john chapter 3 talks about the fact that Uh, whosoever is born of god doth not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of god this is where in second corinthians chapter 5 it says that If you be in christ, then are you a new creature behold old things are passed away

45:27

Or i'm, sorry old things are passed away behold all things are become new That's talking about spiritually, but we still have our flesh and we're waiting for that That adoption we're waiting for the redemption of the body

45:39

And that was predestined from the foundation of the world that those that believe Will be conformed to his image.

45:45

It says now are we the sons of god and it doth not yet appear what we shall be But we know that when he shall appear we should be like him for we shall see him as he is

45:52

So we are the sons of god now spiritually but We're waiting for that physical

45:59

Adoption that physical where our body will be Uh, you know conformed to the image of his son now as we go on In the passage there and again, we can go a little more detail into this type of stuff but doing this in 15 minutes is i'm long -winded so Uh, this might be challenging um, but in verse 31 of roman chapter 8 it says

46:24

What shall we say then? Or what shall we then say to these things of god before us who can be against us?

46:30

He that spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all How shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

46:36

Who shall lay anything to the charge of god's elect? It is god that justified Justified who is he that condemneth?

46:44

It is christ that died ye rather that is risen again Who is even at the right hand of god who also maketh intercession for us?

46:53

Now honestly, I I you know, this is pretty self -explanatory when it comes to what's being talked about here

46:58

I have a feeling that the discussion is going to be going into Uh how we we we we reject limited atonement

47:07

And uh, the argument is going to be here I'm guessing Is that we're dealing with universalism, which obviously we reject universalism.

47:16

We don't believe everybody's getting saved But in this passage particularly it uses the pronoun or us.

47:21

It says us all and uh freely give us all things So in this context obviously we're dealing with um

47:29

Who he's writing to and applying obviously him and whoever's writing this with him Um, it'd be like me at my church saying hey god has died for us all here.

47:39

Um, but obviously it doesn't Exclude other people that are outside the church, but uh, but I do want to Touch on that if I have if I have a minute

47:48

I'm, not sure what my time is I should have had a stopwatch, but um, you've got five minutes Okay, so, uh,

47:55

I want to talk about that aspect of the universalism Because one of the main verses I used in my sermon was romans chapter 5 verse 18 uh where it talks about uh, therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation

48:10

Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life And so obviously the argument is universalism basically

48:19

Okay, well if this is talking about all men are condemned then are all men getting saved but I I want to Just explain this in the fact that it's talking about the free gift came upon all men

48:30

Unto justification of life doesn't mean that they all accepted that free gift This goes back to titus chapter 2 verse 11 for the grace of god that bringing salvation hath appeared to all men now uh

48:42

Dr. White if you want to get into that later We can as far as explaining titus 2 i'm going to be talking about that, but we can definitely get into that But I want to go to hebrews chapter 6 because I want to prove that that gift came upon people

48:55

Was actually tasted by people that are clearly not saved and so hebrews chapter 6 in verse 4

49:03

It says for it is possible for those who are once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift

49:09

And were made partakers of the holy ghost and have tasted the good word of god And the powers of the world to come if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify to themselves

49:18

The son of god afresh and put him to an open shame. So I believe this is talking about those that god has given over to a reprobate mind

49:26

Um, but they did taste of that heavenly gift meaning that they knew god they glorified him not as god Uh, they held the truth and unrighteousness.

49:33

So I do believe That they even tasted of that gift. They tasted of the word of god And that gift came upon all men

49:41

But it's only on those that accept that gift or that believe on the lord. Jesus christ That that gift is imputed unto them uh second peter talks about the fact that uh, second peter 2 verse 1 it says but there

49:54

There were all there I'm, sorry, but there were false prophets also among the people even as there shall be false teachers among you

50:00

Who privilege shall bring in damnable heresies even denying the lord that bought them And bring upon themselves swift destruction.

50:07

So I believe even the false prophet god bought them But it goes into the fact that he's the savior of all men

50:14

Especially of those that believe so I don't want to go any further because i'll probably go over on time on that Okay, you actually still have two and a half minutes, uh, do you want to just move on let me do mine or uh, or what

50:30

Um, yeah, I should have done a stopwatch I meant to do that, but I didn't do it things you learn first time around.

50:37

Yeah. Uh, yeah First time I've ever done this but uh uh Yeah, I mean it

50:42

I have other verses obviously going into the fact that the gospel uh was revealed on unto all um in romans chapter 10 it talks about Have they not heard yes fairly their sound went into all the earth and their words unto the ends of the world but they have not all obeyed the gospel obviously, so um but uh, but yeah, you can go ahead and then obviously we can

51:05

When you get into the critique I can get into more detail on that stuff. Okay. All right

51:10

All right. Thank you, sir. Let me uh reset the Unfortunately, I got my timer has a beep beep on it.

51:17

So, uh All right, uh start my uh start my timer and uh invite everyone to uh, go back to romans 8 28 obviously this is a continuation of paul's argumentation

51:31

Going all the way through the book of romans. He has established justification now in chapter 8 He is really reaching the pinnacle of his argument which is going to transition into chapters 9 10 11

51:41

In regards the unbelief of israel and what god's purposes are in that situation So he's summarizing things and he says in verse 8

51:50

We know that to those who love god all things work together for the good to those who are called according to his purpose

51:58

The phrase is those loving god and those who are called according to purpose are put in direct parallel to one another because Those who love god are those who have been called by god

52:09

And of course that calling originates in god. It is not based upon I mean if I call someone that originates within me

52:17

So god is the one who is doing the calling And so the assertion that is being made here requires the theology that has come before And that is that god is sovereign over all events in human history otherwise when you think of all of the free will acts of mankind

52:34

God would not be able to make the promise that in the lives of his chosen people

52:39

Who are the people who love god that all things work together for the good? Especially given the fact that the christian people experience tribulation and persecution

52:49

And yet the promise of god is in the midst of all of that He has a purpose that he is accomplishing in and through his people.

52:57

That is what then prompts, uh the discussion That comes in verses 29 and 30, which is one whole unit that must be understood together

53:08

And what we need to see is that there are certain verbs there are certain actions that god undertakes in verses 29 through 30, which is the reason that Theologians and exegetes down through the centuries have identified verses 29 and 30 as the golden chain of redemption

53:25

And specifically each one of these is an action on god's part. They are not passive actions on god's part

53:32

They are actions that god undertakes. So foreknowing Is not having foreknowledge

53:38

This is a verb and so we need to have a discussion of what it means to what's what's different between god passively having knowledge

53:46

Of future events or foreknowing someone but notice the verbs are to foreknow to predestine to call to justify and to glorify and each one of these is an action that god undertakes in none of these verbs is there room for Mankind adding something to what god has done

54:13

This is the the basis Of the explanation the apostle provides for his own promise in verse 28

54:21

Is that the reason we can know that all these things work together for good is because we have a sovereign god who is able

54:26

To do all of these things. So what are the things he does? Because those whom he foreknew now again the background of this the hebrew term yadah to know

54:35

When adam yadad eve she had a child When god yadad knew israel

54:43

Many translations will even say chose israel above all other nations. He knew israel only that is he chose israel

54:51

To foreknow is an active thing and every single time When god is said to engage in the verbal action of foreknowing

55:02

The object is a person never events in history

55:08

And so I will challenge uh pastor robinson if you're going to take the perspective that what he foreknows as Actions knowing that what we're going to do then this is the only place in the bible that ever happens

55:20

Every other time where god foreknows he foreknows jesus. He foreknows israel and he foreknows us

55:25

He foreknows people not actions Not what they do, but who they are. This is a loving choice to enter into relationship with someone and so This loving choice

55:38

Means that he predestines That we be conformed the image of his son

55:43

Now the only way that a rebel sinner can be conformed the image of jesus christ is to encompass the entirety of the work of salvation itself

55:52

Regeneration adoption forgiveness of sins sanctification. It is all seen in being conformed to the image of christ

56:00

Everything to final glorification resurrection It is all there in other words god's purpose in foreknowing a particular people

56:09

Is to form the body of christ for the glory of the triune god to join them to that body and that is going to result in inevitably their salvation their regeneration their forgiveness

56:22

Their justification their glorification that is what is going to be taking place But it's all in christ, which is the parallel to ephesians 1 where every single aspect of what god does in ephesians 1

56:32

Is in him in the beloved in christ only in christ The gospel message is an exclusive message in and through the triune god and his work only in the person of jesus christ

56:44

The result of this is so that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren

56:50

So jesus is the prototokos. He is the firstborn He is the one who has preeminence over all others in colossians chapter 1 where that terminology is used

57:00

And so here is the forming of the body of christ Christ is the one who is going to form that body by his means by his power

57:08

And we are being conformed to his image as a result of that sovereign purpose of god, which is why again

57:16

We can know that all things work together for good to those who love god to those who are the call to coin his purpose

57:22

For he continues on those whom he Predestined these he also called and so this has to be the same group all the way through We have to have consistency here who is for known

57:36

Are those who are predestined? And those who are predestined are those who are called now very clearly the term

57:43

Calling in the new testament you have a general call that goes out the gospel call goes out to all people

57:50

But as paul said there is a calling that resulted in his salvation there is an action of god specifically

57:57

That results in the salvation of these specific individuals And if you are called

58:05

By god in this way That results in your justification now keep in mind.

58:11

We know that we are justified by faith But there's nothing in here about faith God is the one who justifies god is the one who calls god is the one who predestines god is the one who foreknew

58:21

Active verbs each and every one. These are actions that god takes And the results are infallible and it's always the same group

58:31

There is a specific group and that group has been identified As those who are called according to his purpose in verse 28, we're going to see down in verse 33

58:38

They're going to be re -identified in the same way. This text is consistent all the way through And so the calling is effective it results in justification and those whom he justified these he also

58:52

Glorified there will not be any who receive the justifying grace of god who are declared righteous before god who will not persevere unto exaltation glorification in the presence of god

59:06

Now that's such an incredible text that paul says what what shall we say to these things?

59:11

Because that is a tremendous promise What shall we say to these things for if god is for us in our behalf?

59:20

Who can possibly be against us if god has done all of these things and it's all of god and not any of us

59:28

Then who could possibly be against us and that really is a rhetorical question that has no answer

59:35

But then he expands even further upon this He did not spare his own son but in behalf of us

59:47

Freely gave him over giving the term paradigm. There is the same term. It's used of judas's. Uh turning jesus over betraying

59:53

Jesus giving jesus over in behalf of us who pair is a term of substitution

59:59

This is substitutionary atonement and it's substitutionary atonement for a specific people already defined back in verse 28

01:00:06

As those called by god, he gave his own son up in behalf of us all

01:00:13

And in light of that, how shall he not together with him? freely same term for grace give to us all things

01:00:24

Again, only in christ in light of the giving of the son to a specific people This is the foundation of verse 28 the great promise there.

01:00:33

It's continuing on through the text And then he takes us into the law court

01:00:39

Who will bring a charge against who the elect? Of god that is a specific people that's reasserting what we saw in verse 28

01:00:49

That's the ones for whom the son is given. It's a specific People and the question that is asked is who can bring a charge against the elect of god?

01:01:01

We might ask who can bring a charge against those who are not the elect of god Well, we know who that is because the reason this is a rhetorical question and that there is no one who can bring a charge against the elect of god is

01:01:13

Because of the law court situation that is presented to here presented to us here notice God is the ha de kion the one justifying

01:01:22

God is the one justifying that's the role of the judge on the bench

01:01:28

When the judge brings down the gavel and says righteous or just That is the judge giving his judgment

01:01:36

And god the father is the justifier. He has said you are just How did that happen because of the work of jesus christ in behalf of the elect of god?

01:01:50

Who then is the one bringing judgment or condemnation? It's the exact same term that's used in legal documents of that day of bringing a charge against someone who is condemning

01:02:02

Christ jesus the one who died rather The one who rose I love that because he gives his life

01:02:08

But because he has risen he is now seated at the right hand of god and That at that position he now intercedes

01:02:19

Kupar haimon for us who is the us the elect of god for whom does christ intercede?

01:02:28

His work of intercession Means there can be no condemnation Because it is specifically for a specific people who have died in him.

01:02:39

They have his righteousness God has declared them righteous Do you see how this is?

01:02:45

absolutely completely a Presentation of the god -centeredness of the christian gospel

01:02:53

God accomplishes this father son and holy spirit bring this about completely and totally to the glory

01:02:59

Of the triune god and so in this last section verse 34

01:03:05

We have this idea who is at the right hand of god This is the exaltation of the son psalm 110 1 the most quoted verse in the old testament in the new testament

01:03:15

Seated at my right hand So there was no place in the holy place for the high priest to sit

01:03:21

But jesus has sat down at the right hand because he has offered the one and final sacrifice in behalf

01:03:27

Of the elect of god And now he is seated there and we a specific people united with him

01:03:36

Have his righteousness And therefore there can be no condemnation.

01:03:41

There can be no charge brought against us because the the mediary the intermediary the mediator

01:03:49

Has been accepted by the judge since he has sat down at the right hand of glory his work has been accepted

01:03:56

He has sat down there. We are united with him. We have his righteousness and so the whole question is

01:04:05

How can anyone bring a charge against those where the judge has said righteous?

01:04:10

The one he himself sent has died in their behalf. He intercedes for them Through the presentation of his finished work in their behalf, which means his finished work is sufficient to bring about the perfect Salvation of anyone which is exactly the point that is made in hebrews 7 24

01:04:27

He is able to save completely those who draw nigh unto god through him Why because he ever lives to make intercession for him if we ever look for anything

01:04:36

Outside of the interceding work of christ to save us. We have missed the point Because that's the only thing that can save us.

01:04:44

That's the only thing that can bring us true and final salvation And so the reason

01:04:51

For verse 28 a verse that is quoted at almost every christian funeral The theology that underlies that is what is unpacked in verses 29 through 34 and so We when we

01:05:04

I worked as a hospital chaplain, for example, and when we quote that verse At the the casket when we quote that verse at the funeral

01:05:14

And say that god causes all things to work together for good for those that love god for them

01:05:19

It was called according to his purpose The reason we can say that is because the gospel is about the power of father son and holy spirit

01:05:30

To accomplish that which they decreed in eternity past to accomplish in the salvation of their people

01:05:36

And that's what then leads into The tremendous song that comes after this in verse 35 and following Who will separate us from the love of christ and all these things in creation?

01:05:48

Cannot begin to separate us from the love of god, which is in christ Why because of something we're going to do because of something we allowed him to do

01:05:58

No Fully totally and completely because of the finished work of jesus christ

01:06:04

Our mediator who stands in the presence of the father at the right hand of the father intercedes for us

01:06:09

That is our only hope that is the message of this beautiful text

01:06:16

Okay managed to get that in with eight seconds, uh, uh free so with With that hopefully you can uh

01:06:26

Pastor robinson. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. So I have 15 minutes to ask you questions.

01:06:32

Is that we're doing this? Yes, sir And then i'll have 15 minutes to ask you Okay, so the first first verse

01:06:37

I want to get to there where you said, uh all things god Decrees all things to work together for good.

01:06:44

That's not what it says It says we know that all things work together for good and I do reject what your version or whatever you're using there to say that there's that There are two caveats there says to them that love god and to them who are the called according to his purpose

01:06:59

And all I heard honestly with your explanation was a bunch of esoteric Arguments, um and no scripture, but I do have a question for you when it comes to That idea of god decreeing everything

01:07:13

And everything that happens the sovereignty of god as you would say um So let me ask you a question.

01:07:20

I mean, do you believe? that god decrees uh Molestation or murder or or you know, let's say abortion abortion clinic.

01:07:30

Do you do you believe god? Is sovereign over that that he decrees for that to happen?

01:07:36

Well, there were a couple questions there. First of all, um, uh, you you seem to dispute the relationship between those

01:07:42

Who love god those who are called according to his purpose. However in the original language I wasn't using an english translation. I was translating the greek directly

01:07:49

And uh in the original language those are parallel, uh phraseologies and and they are meant to be the same group

01:07:56

So those who love god and those are called according to purpose are the same group and you would have to dispute that on the basis

01:08:02

The original language secondly, uh when it says sunerga ais agathon works together for the good

01:08:08

Um, it is perfectly appropriate to recognize that it is god who is doing that working together

01:08:13

You have to provide the subject I do not believe in a fate I don't believe in the universe operating in of itself and in answer to your question

01:08:21

I believe psalm 135 6 that god does whatever pleases in heaven and the earth. I believe that As nebuchadnezzar recognized in daniel chapter 4

01:08:29

He accomplishes his purpose among men psalm 33 Uh says the exact same thing and so hence in answer to your large theodicy question

01:08:38

I do believe that god decrees whatsoever comes to pass and that therefore Everything that happens in this universe has a purpose.

01:08:47

I do not believe in a god who though knowing what the future would be created a mass of purposeless evil

01:08:54

Uh, and then tells us to worship him when he created all of this knew it was going to happen and did nothing about it

01:09:01

Um, I believe just as jacob did in uh, genesis chapter 50

01:09:06

Uh, you intended this for evil God intended for good so in any act of human sin

01:09:13

There is the intention to the glorification of god and to what is good in god's behalf

01:09:19

And then man is judged for the evil intention of his heart just as in genesis 50 isaiah chapter 10

01:09:24

And the crucifixion of the lord jesus christ according to acts 4 27 to 28 uh

01:09:31

Well, let me ask you this in jeremiah 19 when it's talking about It says in verse 5 of jeremiah 19

01:09:38

It says they have built us to high places of bale to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings on the bale

01:09:44

Which I commanded not nor spake it neither came it into my mind Can you answer that verse with that theological?

01:09:53

Reasoning that that god is decreeing that sure given the fact that uh, The bible says that god not only is the creator of all things.

01:10:01

We know is the end from the beginning Um, i'm not an open theist. I do not believe open theism is within the realm of of orthodoxy

01:10:08

And so obviously when you use a phrase such as entered into my mind You're talking about something that you desire or something that you would maybe command of his people

01:10:16

The people were saying that their offerings to moloch were consistent at least with their worship of yahweh, which was untrue

01:10:24

God never commanded them to do any of those things. They were clearly engaging in syncretistic worship where they were joining

01:10:31

Moloch worship together with yahweh worship in the high places. And so if you're if you're actually asserting

01:10:38

Uh that god was shocked and surprised and had no idea from eternity past those people were doing these things

01:10:45

That means god learned something Uh that god was not perfect before he learned this

01:10:50

And I reject that that is completely out of harmony with the entirety of isaiah 40 to 48 that would destroy the entire argument

01:10:57

Uh that is presented there as to the very nature of yahweh And so you need to interpret that language within the plain statements of scripture

01:11:06

That god knows all future events and he also knows all past events and why those past events took place

01:11:14

So it is a lot is simply a matter of allowing all of scripture to speak Let me ask you.

01:11:21

Well, so let's go on to a different Kind of going on with the predestination Do you have anything from romans 8 did you'd like to yeah.

01:11:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I want to talk about It's um is verse 29 and 20 and 30 Um, I would like you to answer though when you're dealing with predestination

01:11:39

Answering ephesians 1 12 where it says who first trusted in christ because you said the foreknowledge you said because it's a verb

01:11:46

It can't be applying to an action But in first peter it says elect according to the foreknowledge of god the father

01:11:54

Through sanctification of the spirit unto obedience and sprinkling the blood of jesus christ and so if if If we first trusted in christ before we're predestinated

01:12:06

Then Then how can you how can you say there was no action? Done by the person at all.

01:12:12

Okay Well, I I don't understand the interpretation of ephesians 1 that goes to verse 12 and reads it back into verse 3

01:12:20

That's called reading something backwards Uh a simple basic rule of exegesis is you follow the sentences through in the order in which they were written

01:12:29

And when you do that you go back to the specific assertion of the text

01:12:34

Which says beginning of verse 3 blessed be the god and father of the lord. Jesus christ the one who blessed us in All heavenly places with every spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in christ jesus

01:12:46

Just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world So the direct object of the verb to choose in verse 4 is us

01:12:57

It's not christ. We are chosen in him No, no one is chosen outside of christ

01:13:02

But the direct object of the verb is us And so god is engaging in an active verbal action here where he chooses us

01:13:13

So that we might and he does so before the foundation of the world so that we might be holy and blameless before him

01:13:19

The only way that we can be holy and blameless before him is that this choice involves the entirety of his redemptive purpose

01:13:27

Which includes the forgiveness of sins which is what then comes out in the rest of verse 5 Having predestined us unto adoptions of jesus christ unto himself

01:13:35

According the kind intention of his will the praise of his glorious grace Which he graced us in the in the beloved one and then that's how we have redemption all of this comes before verse 12 because once you get down past 11

01:13:49

You get into the application of the eternal choices that were made before Now in time he chose the first century christians to be saved and he chose 20th century 21st century christians to be saved

01:14:04

And that means that that eternal choice has to be actuated in time And so the early christians experienced that I didn't experience it back then because I didn't yet exist but his eternal choice

01:14:18

Determines not only what takes place in the first century, but in the 21st century as well So once you get down to verses 12 and following my faith, which is a gift from god ephesians 2 philippians 129

01:14:31

My faith is the result is Verse 3 you're dealing with one

01:14:42

And reject the assertion that there is anything in ephesians 1 or romans 8

01:14:48

Spoke that's not how you demonstrate the resurrection. That's not demonstrate I'm getting the assumption in these last four minutes.

01:14:58

There's nothing that I said Have any questions about I guess My time

01:15:04

I don't want to take your time, but do you have so you're saying okay, here's here's my assertion If you say you don't understand it there is a very clear uh consistency in romans 8 against Jesus is made jesus is intercede.

01:15:23

Is there is a What you could do is that is not what's being said. Yeah. I mean in the text it doesn't say

01:15:30

Uh, it's not saying this is dealing with all people meaning like that Inclusive so so I have

01:15:39

I pointed out there more plain to whom when it says how shall you not with him freely give us all things

01:15:45

Does god give all things to those who are in hell? To those who will never be redeemed No this is a specific people the atoning sacrifice in verse 32 the

01:15:57

Intercession the intercessory work in verse 33 same people Always lives

01:16:04

Let me clear i'd like to Those who are according to his purpose. I believe the fact that you're dealing with the purpose in grace

01:16:11

Like it says in second timothy chapter Of the called and so when you get down to verse 30 to say who's

01:16:23

So I understand the difference between this. Okay, so you're saying so you're saying that Before whom he did he knew what they were going to do and on the basis

01:16:36

Yes And of us believe in romans chapter eight. We're sealed with the holy spirit of promise

01:16:43

The redemption believe in him who may not hurt You think you need to read

01:16:51

I think you need to read Romans 1 2 3 4 5 6 and 7 before you get to chapter 8.

01:16:57

That's right And it's very it's very clear in all those chapters that it's by faith that we're justified

01:17:03

No one's arguing and faith and faith is the condition for salvation. No one. No one's even arguing that but we are arguing chapter 8

01:17:11

What does so well where it says who first trusted it? at Del Show us any place else where the where god engages in this action

01:17:23

And the result and what's known is simply actions. You didn't show us anything.

01:17:28

You went someplace else I just I just want to point that out So let me ask you something you do understand that in the calling of verse 30

01:17:38

That's only for a specific people. So god only calls those he foreknows

01:17:43

He has foreknowledge of are going to uh respond to him No, that's not what it says.

01:17:49

What does it say? It's it's saying That whom he did predestinate them he called So, of course he calls those that he knew would believe but that doesn't mean that he doesn't call everybody else

01:18:00

It doesn't this doesn't negate the fact that that he calls the whole world to be saved okay, we're having some

01:18:07

I don't understand how you I don't understand how you can say that just because I'm i'm called by god and I got saved that that negates the fact that god called everybody to get saved

01:18:19

Okay, we're uh, unfortunately you started doing the max headroom thing. Um And you know how these uh, sometimes skype and stuff like that starts sounding a little strange um

01:18:30

Sometimes that clears up and sometimes it doesn't um Let's i'm going to stop the time here just for a second.

01:18:38

I think the I think the The live stream has been We've been struggling

01:18:45

Yeah, I mean it was cutting out and i'm kind of getting some messages from people Yeah, well, we're recording it.

01:18:51

So we'll it will definitely have the full thing up. Um Okay, um

01:18:57

Unfortunately, you're still sounding uh sort of bad there. Um You hear me now? Well, I can hear you but you you sound like you're calling in from mars, which

01:19:07

Is not is not best. Um That that is one of the problems with this, uh, might it be possible rich to try to re -establish the connection and and pick up I can try hold on one second.

01:19:21

Let me try to take out my microphone or my I don't think it I don't think it has well, you can try that if you'd like Okay Nah, it's it's the connection

01:19:34

Okay, you're you're just uh, once you hear it, you'll be able to see uh that it's you just don't sound good

01:19:40

So you you What do you think rich? Because I don't think there's a whole lot of reason to go with his uh

01:19:48

The quality that low He's cogitating

01:20:00

What's that? Okay. Could you try one more thing? Could you say something more for us? Yeah, yeah, just it's just it's a bad it just dropped out.

01:20:10

It's like sunspots or something But we're it's probably dark back there. It doesn't make any sense. I don't know when I was watching you guys earlier

01:20:16

It was your live stream was cutting in and out. Yeah. Yeah, but you were doing fine Your your quality was fine up until a point just a few moments ago uh

01:20:28

So what do you say rich you can't uh, yeah,

01:20:36

I understand. Um Uh, well, um I I don't want to ask you to to make your comments when i'm the only one that can be heard very well.

01:20:46

Um, so I don't know what other mechanism we could use to hook up other than Totally starting we can try to get him to phone in Uh, would you be willing to do that, uh, jason

01:20:58

I can put him on the pass line Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's only a few more minutes.

01:21:04

So yeah, um, okay. Um, you just have a number I can call Okay, rich. Can can you talk to him?

01:21:11

Okay. Yeah, it's um, you can you write it down can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you eight seven seven

01:21:18

Seven five three Three three four one Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

01:21:27

That's toll -free number. Okay Okay Yeah, yeah, let's let's shut that down then we'll put you put you straight on the air we can continue our conversation for the last few minutes

01:21:38

Uh, so did you mute him? Okay. All right. Sorry about that folks, uh technology is technology

01:21:44

Zoom has worked really well for us Skype does the same type of thing Sometimes you get you get um internet issues.

01:21:52

We don't know why it is. Um, I I have no earthly idea uh, but we were uh, approximately eight minutes

01:22:00

Uh, i'll just go back and set that we're approximately eight minutes into my

01:22:06

Cross examination time and so if we can get uh, Pastor robinson back

01:22:19

Okay, are you able to hear me now? Yes. No, maybe Okay, can you hear me now?

01:22:29

Hello Pastor robinson Now this should work pretty easily it's our regular phones phone system testing one two three what's um

01:22:54

Testing you there We do open phones all the time

01:23:01

Uh, there's got to be got to be something that has been switched off muted Uh, I can hear you

01:23:07

I got you now, okay. All right man Now now please tell me that your battery has please.

01:23:14

Is he not able to hear me? Hello Now testing one two three

01:23:20

Can you hear me? I can hear you Okay. Oh finally. Wow. Okay. Now, please tell me your battery has more than 10 on it

01:23:29

I'm on I'm on a landline Landline, okay. All right. So here's situation.

01:23:34

We had eight minutes left. Uh, we'll finish that up then we've got uh, five minutes and uh,

01:23:40

Five minutes each and and we're done. So that should be fairly fairly quick So hopefully we can just pick up right back up where we where we were.

01:23:48

All right. I'm hitting the start button here All right. So I I'm trying to stay within roman's chapter eight as much as as possible

01:23:56

And so the last thing that we had mentioned So, um

01:24:02

The calling of verse 30 results in justification So god's calling results in justification

01:24:11

Would that not thereby necessitate? human faith as as under the action of god or Would you just simply say well all this is just based upon god for knowing that we believe anyways

01:24:28

Yeah, well, I mean obviously the call Destination has to happen

01:24:34

We're actually here on the earth so that Sanctification of spirit and belief of the truth

01:24:42

Which goes to titus as well titus 3 where it talks about that we're saved not by works regeneration or Christ our savior

01:24:51

And the fact that like I wouldn't Hold them to your chosen. So I don't see how you can do that Let's look at verse 34

01:24:58

Maybe we can wrap up with I like the lost people who are who are lost today. They're not saved yet Jesus isn't interceding for them

01:25:07

No, not until they're saved not until the blood's applied, um I don't believe we can come boldly into the throne of grace or or that we can you know, uh

01:25:17

First john talks about the fact that if we confess our sins He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

01:25:23

I do believe the intercession that you're dealing with here Is the fact that we're we have our soul that's perfect and sinless, but we have

01:25:32

Confessing our sins makes jesus Pressures right and with I don't even think that this is he's even just talking to The elect in general.

01:25:48

I mean as far as like all the elect. I think he's just talking about. Hey, this is we're elect We're saved